Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Interviewed by CNN on 24/12/2009 03:29, Rufus told the world: SM 1.1.18 does what I need, and the way I need it done. And I've been looking over alternatives left and right - Firefox...nogo. Camino, Stainless, Chrome, and Safari all look like they have common roots. Almost, but not quite. Camino is based on Gecko, the same as Firefox, Seamonkey and Flock. All the others you mentioned are Webkit-based, and therefore will render similarly (except for Javascript, because they use different engines for that). -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... BOFH excuse #450: Terrorists crashed an airplane into the server room, have to remove /bin/laden. (rm -rf /bin/laden) * TagZilla 0.0661 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org on Seamonkey 2.0 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 24/12/2009 03:29, Rufus told the world: SM 1.1.18 does what I need, and the way I need it done. And I've been looking over alternatives left and right - Firefox...nogo. Camino, Stainless, Chrome, and Safari all look like they have common roots. Almost, but not quite. Camino is based on Gecko, the same as Firefox, Seamonkey and Flock. All the others you mentioned are Webkit-based, and therefore will render similarly (except for Javascript, because they use different engines for that). Granted. But that's all under the hood...I'm talking strictly as a user, and to me as a user they all appear very similar. And understandable because they share common roots, but I also find it interesting that they just plain look so much alike. I'm going to have to really dig to find out what one may or may not do that another doesn't do - generally I start by comparing user Preference panels and options. When I can find an option set I like, that's usually the one for me. Which was what drew me to Netscape, Mozilla Suite, and then Seamonkey in the first place, has kept me using it, and encouraging others to use it. I think the biggest difference between me and most of the users I recommend SM to is that they have no need for a newsreader - I'm becoming more an more surprised that most of them have never even heard of usenet - if you can't get there with a URL, they're stumped...and I'm particularly surprised because a lot of these guys are professional coder-geeks and PhDs. But to each their own - I have a ton of hobbies, and I really like usenet forums for exchanging information in support of my hobbies...so I'm a SM fan mostly because of that. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Benoit Renard wrote: NFN Smith wrote: Daniel wrote: it's easier just to say Firefox as the majority option, rather than an XUL browser. A web browser doesn't need to use XUL to use the Gecko rendering engine. Look at K-Meleon for a good example. I think Camino doesn't use XUL either. See? Even I didn't get the terminology right. Smith ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Phillip Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:25:37 -0500, Leonidas Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of Open Source. Perhaps you should just give up and install Maxthon. Not an option, he's on a Mac. Parellels, VMWare Fusion, probably Virtual Box. Phil If I had an Intel Mac Possibly. But with a PowerPC That's out. I believe qemu is your friend. If I can run PPC Linux on x86 I assume you can run x86 on PPC, although since the CPU is in software the execution is somewhat leisurely. Does work, tho, honest. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked. - from Slashdot ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Robert Kaiser wrote: Right, it is. And even maintaining al bunch of code you don't really know and which is sometimes written in strange ways is a quite hard job, have you ever tried that? Unfortunately yes. And I looked at SM code briefly and decided it was the mutant offspring of people who met, drunk, at a masquerade ball. I have worked on projects where some programmers marched to a different drummer, but some of the authors heard a whole other brass band. Don't take that as criticism, it's my honest comment on the mismatch in code styles, not the competence of the authors as individuals. You have my sympathy, but I'm never going to work on code like that again. I applaud your courage to work on code from so many origins. The SeaMonkey project mostly consists of people who have never worked on many parts of the code that the old suite had, most of us worked only in user interface (frontend) parts and never in the platform code (backend) those interfaces build on, so we are simply unable to maintain it. Our only chance of keeping SeaMonkey alive at all was to reduce the amount of unknown code we cannot maintain and replace it with code that is being maintained by someone else - which meant switching to the newer Mozilla platform, of which e.g. the new form management code is a part of. If I may say, what is there is more field management than form management, because what is needed is to be able to save the entire form (values) as a named whole, not the values of the fields, requiring the user to go and change each field. So I can have *sets* of data to plug into a given form. Now, that we have switched to that base and can let the old stuff die, we can look into ways to improve the newly acquired things and those parts of code that we have in the application now and should be able to maintain. If I might offer a suggestion, if there was better documentation on writing extensions, the interfaces available to be used, some of these problems might be solved by people who have a need. just my thought. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked. - from Slashdot ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Benoit Renard wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Phil, in large measure, kept SM 1.1.x usable by his incredible work on xSidebar and porting Firefox and Thunderbird extensions to work in SeaMonkey. Without that, 1.1.x was really not a usable piece of work, at least without Multizilla, which basically converted it to another application entirely. I object to this. SeaMonkey 1.1.x is very usable without extensions. In general I agree with that, other than a few media bits needed to play various streaming media, SM 1.1.xx runs fine. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked. - from Slashdot ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
NFN Smith wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 15:28:27 -0700, NFN Smith wrote: snip I have seen the discussion relating to Coral IETab, and I've played with that briefly on a test configuration. Objectively, I would love to see a way to get the necessary plugin support enabled, as I do think that helps with long-term use of Seamonkey (where it's possible to get to IE on the occasions that's needed). Given that SeaMonkey has a little more of an enterprise focus that TB/FF, to some measure, I think that SeaMonkey users may be more likely to bump into sites that require IE, and having the ability to call IE from inside SeaMonkey would allow for use SeaMonkey when they want, without having to do a separate launch of IE for the sites that require IE. Smith Not that I've ever used IE Tab or Coral IE Tab but just sitting here reading, I'm thinking Do those that use these extensions ever bother to contact the site to say My SeaMonkey doesn't work with your site because your site is poorly coded!. Then I thought Wouldn't it be possible to have this function built into the Extension?? so that it happens automatically! Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Daniel wrote: Not that I've ever used IE Tab or Coral IE Tab but just sitting here reading, I'm thinking Do those that use these extensions ever bother to contact the site to say My SeaMonkey doesn't work with your site because your site is poorly coded!. Then I thought Wouldn't it be possible to have this function built into the Extension?? so that it happens automatically! That would be nice. I do use PrefBar, although it's very rare these days that I bump into a site that requires me to do spoofing. When that does happen, I generally squawk at the site owner. I've seen a number of sites that say they want Firefox (but accept SeaMonkey). The ones that really irk me are the ones that say they want Netscape 6. To me, that's indicative of an IE-centric developer, who supports something else because he has to, but doesn't really care to make the effort to do it. Beyond that, for the sites that insist on Firefox as the alternative to IE, for a lot, it seems to be that many haven't bothered to differentiate between the browser itself and the rendering engine, and for those who do, it would seem that many may presume that non-technical users neither know nor want to know the difference -- it's easier just to say Firefox as the majority option, rather than an XUL browser. If it's any consolation to us SeaMonkey users, I presume that Camino users have the same issue. Smith ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
MCBastos wrote: Again, it's a matter of manpower. SM *was* going somewhat independently from Firefox for the last few years, on the 1.1 branch -- and what was the result? The rendering engine was looking more and more dated every day, ditto for the Javascript engine and other core stuff. That had nothing to do with using XPFE instead of toolkit, though. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
NFN Smith wrote: Daniel wrote: it's easier just to say Firefox as the majority option, rather than an XUL browser. A web browser doesn't need to use XUL to use the Gecko rendering engine. Look at K-Meleon for a good example. I think Camino doesn't use XUL either. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
»Q« wrote: In news:cfadnyjlv636srlwnz2dnuvz_hidn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: »Q« wrote: In news:j7qdntbkupghy7pwnz2dnuvz_uwdn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: »Q« wrote: The form manager feature of SeaMonkey 1.x isn't in SM 2.0.x because the codebase which supports it has been abandoned by the people working on Mozilla core code. Polling users wouldn't make those people re-implement it for the newer codebase, and the SeaMonkey team hasn't (yet) been able to do that themselves. ...so, what you've just told me is that the Form Manager doesn't have a snowball's chance of coming back. That's not at all what I've just told you or even based on what I've just told you. You must have some other reason for thinking there will never again be a form manager in SeaMonkey. ...you used the words abandoned and core. That means no, as far as I'm concerned. You're right that no one will revive the Mozilla 1.8 code, but that certainly doesn't mean that SeaMonkey will never again have a forms manager. ...but as the project is staffed, you can't really tell me when it will...I've been hearing nothing but we don't have someone to work that as opposed to how it could be worked. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Rufus wrote: A two year cycle is about standard for what I do, and what I manage is WAY more complex than something like SM...the short cycle model works just fine for security and under the hood fixes, the long cycle model works better for major interface changes. You just have more or less said that what you work on is not in the slightest way related with the Internet. In this place, a few weeks or months can mean life or death for a software project. Robert Kaiser ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus wrote: A two year cycle is about standard for what I do, and what I manage is WAY more complex than something like SM...the short cycle model works just fine for security and under the hood fixes, the long cycle model works better for major interface changes. You just have more or less said that what you work on is not in the slightest way related with the Internet. In this place, a few weeks or months can mean life or death for a software project. Robert Kaiser Exactly...which is why I'm so puzzled at the intransigence of some of the people on the team when I read the bug reports. I would have expected the team to be far more flexible and responsive to user feedback...particularly in light of what has been said about not allowing the project to die. Where is the teams sense of urgency? -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Rufus wrote: They do have control over Themes True, and that's why we finally, after 10 years revamped the theme to fit way better with current desktop environments. Unfortunately, we left out a few pieces and there are some parts where we could have done even better, but we're missing a good graphical designer in our community. Do you know one willing to help and donate all his work on it to the project under very open licensing? ...so, what you've just told me is that the Form Manager doesn't have a snowball's chance of coming back. Right, it cannot come back in its old form, the old code it used is nothing anyone of us understands or can work with. All we can do it building something on top of the new form management code that improves it and maybe brings back some of the most-missed parts of functionality from the old interface. Still, all that needs someone to work on it, and right now, all I have seen is talk and not deeds. Robert Kaiser ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
On 12/21/2009 5:14 PM, Robert Kaiser wrote: snip Our only chance of keeping SeaMonkey alive at all was to reduce the amount of unknown code we cannot maintain and replace it with code that is being maintained by someone else - which meant switching to the newer Mozilla platform, of which e.g. the new form management code is a part of. snip You do have a very valid point. My concern is, it works both ways. The other side of the coin is, since this is a volunteer venture, how can we hope that in x number of years, the new volunteers will not consider the present code unmaintainable? Given all this, I marvel at the fact, at a time when some people just make outrageous amounts of money by being (too) smart with other people's hard earned money, some volunteers dedicate time to Seamonkey. This puts my reluctance with SM2 in perspective and I wish I had the technical ability to contribute better and more efficiently than by occasional posts ... -- John Doue ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Leonidas Jones wrote: Phil, in large measure, kept SM 1.1.x usable by his incredible work on xSidebar and porting Firefox and Thunderbird extensions to work in SeaMonkey. Without that, 1.1.x was really not a usable piece of work, at least without Multizilla, which basically converted it to another application entirely. I object to this. SeaMonkey 1.1.x is very usable without extensions. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Phillip Jones wrote: Rufus wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:25:37 -0500, Leonidas Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: /snip/ Not an option, he's on a Mac. Parellels, VMWare Fusion, probably Virtual Box. Phil VirtualBox is great, though I've never tried on a G4, which is where Phillip is. Still not an answer for a full time browser regardless. Safari would be the best, though I know he doesn't want to go there. Lee I have Safari I and I can do less with it than SM and its slower. I agree. I think Phil is getting a bit frustrated. I don't blame him. He and the others have worked very hard on trying to keep this thing alive, and you, among others, really don't seem to understand or appreciate that. Phil, in large measure, kept SM 1.1.x usable by his incredible work on xSidebar and porting Firefox and Thunderbird extensions to work in SeaMonkey. Without that, 1.1.x was really not a usable piece of work, at least without Multizilla, which basically converted it to another application entirely. The unfortunately few devs on this project are users who didn't want the concept to die. This isn't Firefox or Thunderbird, where there are paid workers. The developers here do care, or there wouldn't be any project. I don't mean to say let them have a free pass. But, for heavens sake, lets treat them with the respect they deserve. Lee And I guess that's what I don't get...volunteers are generally more dedicated and principled than paid hacks. Or at least the ones I've encountered have been...so I'm not into coddling them. So I really don't get why they've knuckled under and merely imported TB and FF code instead of maintaining their own, based on that code...this is all open source, right? So where did the best of the good stuff go, just because the paid hacks got paid to drop it? Open = independent, I thought? Branch out or die...let SM become it's own project, or we might as well all just use FF and TB. Otherwise we won't be getting anything more than FF and TB linked together in one app. That's not much reason to choose. I've already explained with I won't use FF/TB combination. They don't play nice together. I tried FF on my MacBook last night...all I had to do was to look over the Prefs selections to determine that it's feature set wasn't suitable for what I'd like to be using. I used App Delete to get rid of it...after about 10 minutes with it. I do have to say that I've been pleasantly surprised by Thunderbird 3.0 though. It's Mac interface actually looks like a Mac interface. And I've only got two kicks against it so far - when it did the import from my SM profile, it imported ALL of my Password Manager content instead of just the Mail/News portions; and that the Attachment icon in the Preview tray is too small - if it scaled with the tray size that would be nice. I'll still only use it as an alternative Usenet reader, though. Mail.app is my primary. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus wrote: So I really don't get why they've knuckled under and merely imported TB and FF code instead of maintaining their own, based on that code...this is all open source, right? Right, it is. And even maintaining al bunch of code you don't really know and which is sometimes written in strange ways is a quite hard job, have you ever tried that? Yes, that I understand...try porting functionality written in raw machine code to C++ for an entire integrated system and then maintaining like configurations on a dual path for each - where the requirement is that the two interfaces remain EXACT duplicates of each other for common functions. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm saying that there is a required discipline, order, and approach to doing the job in order to get it done. But SM has been going on for some years...decades? That should have been enough time to shape it up. If people have been focused. The SeaMonkey project mostly consists of people who have never worked on many parts of the code that the old suite had, most of us worked only in user interface (frontend) parts and never in the platform code (backend) those interfaces build on, so we are simply unable to maintain it. Again, understood. But yet another reason for shaping up the code along the way so that the next volunteer can figure it out. That should be a common overall goal/responsibility. And I assume you can feedback input to the backend coders? Our only chance of keeping SeaMonkey alive at all was to reduce the amount of unknown code we cannot maintain and replace it with code that is being maintained by someone else - which meant switching to the newer Mozilla platform, of which e.g. the new form management code is a part of. If you're talking about the Forms Manager, I noted it's not in Firefox either, so I can only assume it's gone for good - unless the SM team is coding it anew. Which I doubt, given what you've said. Now, that we have switched to that base and can let the old stuff die, we can look into ways to improve the newly acquired things and those parts of code that we have in the application now and should be able to maintain. Robert Kaiser I'd be even more pleased if people were looking into ways to port familiar and popular feature sets into the new code structure...which it doesn't sound like is going to happen - not when I hear things about old stuff dying. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
In news:2-wdnxg9kemgarpwnz2dnuvz_gwdn...@mozilla.org, Phillip Jones pjon...@kimbanet.com wrote: »Q« wrote: I find it amazing that some people conclude that the devs either don't care about users or actively work against users' wishes, when those same people continue to use the browser suite (either 1.1.x or 2.0.x) that those same devs have spent years to produce. Is it quite possible because there absolutely nothing out on the market any better than SeaMonkey. Absolutely nothing. That's the most amazing thing of all to me, that you can believe that a group of developers willfully acting against the users have produced absolutely the best product available. With enemies like them, who needs friends? ;) The devs have asked for and gotten a lot of constructive feedback from users in this group, but multiple posts complaining about the same feature ad nauseam and filled with all manner of malicious, unfounded allegations about devs are only sapping energy that could be used to improve SeaMonkey. There was no accusations that developers were sapping energy. I meant you're sapping *their* energy. They've spent a lot of time rebutting your accusations that would have been better spent working on the browser (or out having fun, even, recharging for browser work). SM2 is a greatest Browser/Mail/news Product bar none. There is nothing on Earth and possibly Mars any better. Is it perfect. No. Are we disappointed in left out items. You Betcha! One I wish there were a passwords manager post would be sufficient. But you never stop with that. I'm not even sure you realize how many posts you've made about it, many of which accuse developers of acting maliciously. IMO, what users who want a forms manager should now do is look for an extension developer who might provide one; there are some for Firefox that people could check out and encourage the authors to make SM-compatible. At least one complainer has already said he's completely unwilling to do that, but others could do it. If your referring to whom I think you are. He said that as a lowly user such as he, he would be ignored, an individual user has no standing with developers. And, he didn't have the funds to pay him. If he had money, and influence he would be on the phone with him in a heart beat. An individual user has no influence with a developer. It's simply untrue that an individual user cannot influence a developer. I expect you yourself can't influence developers much, but IMO that's because your approach to influencing them just involves harassing them. I've influenced several of them myself, in various projects, including extension developers, and gotten some features I wanted out of it. But that wouldn't have happened if I'd opened by accusing them of hurting their users intentionally. -- »Q« /\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign \ / against html e-mailX http://asciiribbon.org/ / \ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus wrote: 4) adopt a schedule for release and release fewer changes per cycle - this could be done on a shorter cycle, allowing for more releases. 5) adopt a longer release cycle for major changes to allow user polling and beta test of (all) pending implementations prior to formal release - this would fit a longer cycle with fewer releases. Longer or shorter? Is three years for really major changes such as what we did with 1.x - 2.0 with 1.5 years of releasing Alphas and Betas too little in the moving-fast Internet world? A two year cycle is about standard for what I do, and what I manage is WAY more complex than something like SM...the short cycle model works just fine for security and under the hood fixes, the long cycle model works better for major interface changes. 7) discarding old features just because they are old doesn't even enter into the equation OK, now you revealed that you don't have a clue about development. The reason is never just because it's old, it's usually because there's nobody any more who can maintain this f***ing piece of sh*t for its security vulnerabilities because nobody who is around does understand the code or even tries to. And then, remember, around here you can't hire anyone to do that, you can just beg people to please look at it. And if that doesn't help, it's always better to ship the code you trust only and omit the parts you cannot trust or maintain any more. It's not about trusting code - greatest thing about code is that you can re-write it. So if you don't trust something, redraft it into something you do trust and maintain the functionality for the end user. That's such a common requirement for system software development in my industry that we don't even bat an eye at it. Like I mentioned previously - if we applied your above approach with airplanes, we'd risk killing people. We don't like killing people. That a REALLY short treatise on how I've done it...and a fair start for anyone else. Feel free to manage your own project if you think it's really that easy. I have explained in the post before why it isn't for us. ...I NEVER said it was easy. I said it's possible. Oh, and just imagine your whole world falls apart and you need to completely rebuild it with a team of maximum 10-20 people who only can invest their free time. How would you do that? Do your utopical guideline still work there? Robert Kaiser Well...yeah...we do that weekly. In fact, we've just been fighting a HUGE issue with a system which may put a possible year slip in our production. There is no utopia. But there IS getting the job done. And yeah - that's about how many people we have on our teams as well for an integration effort on a complex system - sometimes it's just one guy for a piece of software for a particular box. Discipline, configuration control, small increments - that's how we do it. For the last 25 years that I've been doing it. So I'm not much discouraged by the SM team's sitch. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus wrote: As I said, I'm an evaluator/manager - not a coder. I can give advise, and I can manage...and coders can ignore me - like they do at work. Hehe, now you admit you understand my part in all that somewhat after all. ;-) I'm mostly a manager in what I'm doing as well, and a large part of our product has always come in from (to compare it to business) a third party of sorts (or different departments/divisions, if you will) so I also need to mostly swallow what they bring in when managing our team. And then this team has nobody at all who can be forced in any way to do anything, as there's nobody paid to work here. Fun times. ...and SM's user base is WAY larger than mine. I'd likely be a good beta tester. That's about the best I can offer. That's already a good start, and we welcome everybody who tests or Alpha and Beta releases and files bugs. There's as much guarantee that any developer listens to you than there is that he listens to me, as this is a volunteer open source project, and is in the end steered by those who do the actual work. Robert Kaiser -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
In news:j7qdntbkupghy7pwnz2dnuvz_uwdn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: »Q« wrote: The form manager feature of SeaMonkey 1.x isn't in SM 2.0.x because the codebase which supports it has been abandoned by the people working on Mozilla core code. Polling users wouldn't make those people re-implement it for the newer codebase, and the SeaMonkey team hasn't (yet) been able to do that themselves. ...so, what you've just told me is that the Form Manager doesn't have a snowball's chance of coming back. That's not at all what I've just told you or even based on what I've just told you. You must have some other reason for thinking there will never again be a form manager in SeaMonkey. -- »Q« /\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign \ / against html e-mailX http://asciiribbon.org/ / \ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus wrote: As I said, I'm an evaluator/manager - not a coder. I can give advise, and I can manage...and coders can ignore me - like they do at work. Hehe, now you admit you understand my part in all that somewhat after all. ;-) I'm mostly a manager in what I'm doing as well, and a large part of our product has always come in from (to compare it to business) a third party of sorts (or different departments/divisions, if you will) so I also need to mostly swallow what they bring in when managing our team. And then this team has nobody at all who can be forced in any way to do anything, as there's nobody paid to work here. Fun times. ...meets spec, doesn't work...well, that's not in the contract...yeah, I've been there/done that. Constantly. ...and SM's user base is WAY larger than mine. I'd likely be a good beta tester. That's about the best I can offer. That's already a good start, and we welcome everybody who tests or Alpha and Beta releases and files bugs. There's as much guarantee that any developer listens to you than there is that he listens to me, as this is a volunteer open source project, and is in the end steered by those who do the actual work. Robert Kaiser That's where I guess I'm missing the boat - we at least have process control over how and what gets added/removed and when. Being new the this fray, I'm not up on how you really manage configuration and content for SM. And I get really skeptical when I see well, it looks better in the bug threads - we fire people for doing stuff like that. But I guess when you go open, you're open to open revolt... -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus wrote: They do have control over Themes True, and that's why we finally, after 10 years revamped the theme to fit way better with current desktop environments. Unfortunately, we left out a few pieces and there are some parts where we could have done even better, but we're missing a good graphical designer in our community. Do you know one willing to help and donate all his work on it to the project under very open licensing? I'm an engineer, not a graphic designer. All of what I work with is implemented to convey information to the user (pilots and crew) as efficiently and completely as possible, with little consideration for form - it has to be that way so that fatal mistakes aren't made. There's gucci-graphics, and then there's what works and what's useful. There are likely some readily available standards for user interfaces - like button size, scaling for screen presentations, etc. - that in the absence of having a design professional on the team the team could still refer to in making design decisions. That would be a start. ...so, what you've just told me is that the Form Manager doesn't have a snowball's chance of coming back. Right, it cannot come back in its old form, the old code it used is nothing anyone of us understands or can work with. All we can do it building something on top of the new form management code that improves it and maybe brings back some of the most-missed parts of functionality from the old interface. Still, all that needs someone to work on it, and right now, all I have seen is talk and not deeds. Robert Kaiser ...staffing is always an issue. Sometimes it's THE issue... -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Benoit Renard wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Phil, in large measure, kept SM 1.1.x usable by his incredible work on xSidebar and porting Firefox and Thunderbird extensions to work in SeaMonkey. Without that, 1.1.x was really not a usable piece of work, at least without Multizilla, which basically converted it to another application entirely. I object to this. SeaMonkey 1.1.x is very usable without extensions. Second. It does about everything I need right out of the box...I don't even need to go looking for a suitable Theme. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Interviewed by CNN on 21/12/2009 03:32, Rufus told the world: And I guess that's what I don't get...volunteers are generally more dedicated and principled than paid hacks. Or at least the ones I've encountered have been...so I'm not into coddling them. They are, but since they aren't getting paid, they can't give as many hours to the project -- they have day jobs. A paid programmer can give 8 hours/day, at least 200 days a year. A volunteer can give MAYBE 2 hours/day. If he's really dedicated and enthusiastic. Some paid programmer started out as volunteers, and are as enthusiastic as any volunteer, by the way. All those programmer man-month add up. So I really don't get why they've knuckled under and merely imported TB and FF code instead of maintaining their own, based on that code...this is all open source, right? So where did the best of the good stuff go, just because the paid hacks got paid to drop it? Open = independent, I thought? Seamonkey simply does not have nearly as much manpower available as Firefox -- and, as KaiRo pointed out, the Seamonkey volunteers lack expertise in some areas that would be essential to splitting out entirely. The source code to what you call the good stuff is still available -- but it's not compatible with the new core in its present form. If someone with the necessary expertise, willingness and available time will step up and adapt it to the new core, it can be revived. So far nobody volunteered. Branch out or die...let SM become it's own project, or we might as well all just use FF and TB. Otherwise we won't be getting anything more than FF and TB linked together in one app. That's not much reason to choose. Again, it's a matter of manpower. SM *was* going somewhat independently from Firefox for the last few years, on the 1.1 branch -- and what was the result? The rendering engine was looking more and more dated every day, ditto for the Javascript engine and other core stuff. It lacked several modern security enhancements, it lacked a decent extensions manager, it lacked a decent upgrade mechanism. Moving to the Firefox toolkit gave us all of those in a fell swoop. And let's not forget the extensions ecosystem. Which, frankly, was dying on Seamonkey. Lots of extensions weren't available for SM, or had reduced functionality -- because it was a lot more work for extensions developers to support SM. That trend is reverting now: more and more extensions are being brought to SM. My take on the move? It's like the old saying, to give one step backwards to leap two forwards. Yes, some stuff didn't get moved/recreated immediately -- the forms manager seems to be the most visible complaint. However, the move will release developers from doing stuff that was just duplicating efforts from the FF/TB guys, so they can now concentrate on doing new stuff. You have a boat. It has a wooden hull, it's old and leaky. You have three guys to work on the boat. They spend all the time plugging leaks. Then someone offers you a brand-new, fiberglass hull. You move your engine, bunks, head, kitchen etc. to the new hull. Only, a couple bunks didn't fit the new hull (despite it being actually a little bigger), so you had to do without them for the time being. Sure, right now you have less bunks -- but your three guys have a lot of free time now, so they can not only build new bunks but even to figure out how to fit a freaking home theater in the boat. -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... BOFH excuse #308: CD-ROM server needs recalibration * TagZilla 0.0661 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org on Seamonkey 2.0 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 21/12/2009 03:32, Rufus told the world: And I guess that's what I don't get...volunteers are generally more dedicated and principled than paid hacks. Or at least the ones I've encountered have been...so I'm not into coddling them. They are, but since they aren't getting paid, they can't give as many hours to the project -- they have day jobs. A paid programmer can give 8 hours/day, at least 200 days a year. A volunteer can give MAYBE 2 hours/day. If he's really dedicated and enthusiastic. Some paid programmer started out as volunteers, and are as enthusiastic as any volunteer, by the way. All those programmer man-month add up. Yes...so they move slower. I don't have any issue with that.1 So I really don't get why they've knuckled under and merely imported TB and FF code instead of maintaining their own, based on that code...this is all open source, right? So where did the best of the good stuff go, just because the paid hacks got paid to drop it? Open = independent, I thought? Seamonkey simply does not have nearly as much manpower available as Firefox -- and, as KaiRo pointed out, the Seamonkey volunteers lack expertise in some areas that would be essential to splitting out entirely. ...again - slower change, but try not to allow change for the worse simply in the interest of change. The source code to what you call the good stuff is still available -- but it's not compatible with the new core in its present form. If someone with the necessary expertise, willingness and available time will step up and adapt it to the new core, it can be revived. So far nobody volunteered. Requires forethought, a roadmap, and planning. Not sure that it may not be too late at this point - it has to be a constant, continuing effort or things get too far behind to recover...or to recover gracefully. Branch out or die...let SM become it's own project, or we might as well all just use FF and TB. Otherwise we won't be getting anything more than FF and TB linked together in one app. That's not much reason to choose. Again, it's a matter of manpower. SM *was* going somewhat independently from Firefox for the last few years, on the 1.1 branch -- and what was the result? The rendering engine was looking more and more dated every day, ditto for the Javascript engine and other core stuff. It lacked several modern security enhancements, it lacked a decent extensions manager, it lacked a decent upgrade mechanism. Moving to the Firefox toolkit gave us all of those in a fell swoop. The under the hood stuff may have looked dated, but the 1.x.x user interface and functionality provided was the best on the planet, IMO. The move to the FF toolkit may have fixed stuff I can't see, but what I CAN see has taken a leap backwards. One more reason to code in a modular and transportable manner - toolkit or not. And let's not forget the extensions ecosystem. Which, frankly, was dying on Seamonkey. Lots of extensions weren't available for SM, or had reduced functionality -- because it was a lot more work for extensions developers to support SM. That trend is reverting now: more and more extensions are being brought to SM. Personally, I don't use extensions - SM has given me what I need and served my needs right out of the box. So from a personal standpoint I'd have let extensions die and tried to build the more popular stuff into the app. But that likely wouldn't please everyone either - not to mention that being a fan and proponent of modularity, after consideration I'd probably have changed my mind. My take on the move? It's like the old saying, to give one step backwards to leap two forwards. Yes, some stuff didn't get moved/recreated immediately -- the forms manager seems to be the most visible complaint. However, the move will release developers from doing stuff that was just duplicating efforts from the FF/TB guys, so they can now concentrate on doing new stuff. Speaking personally again, I never used the Forms Manager...probably because I couldn't tell if its information was encrypted when stored. But if I'd have been able to tell, yeah - I'd be using it. And that's really what most of my major beefs with the 2.x.x releases are about - most of my issues have to do with things which are really under the control of someone building the GUI - like better text information in dialog boxes, properly sized buttons, etc. Not really nuts and bolts stuff that I can't see...other than type and application encryption - and again, a simple dialog box or header could provide me that information. Yeah, I can see where someone that used the Forms Manager would be REALLY annoyed that it's now missing - me, not so much because I didn't use it. Now that I'm more aware of what a convenience it could be, I'm becoming more annoyed that it's missing myself. But once again - information that may have made me more likely to use it was never
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Benoit Renard wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Phil, in large measure, kept SM 1.1.x usable by his incredible work on xSidebar and porting Firefox and Thunderbird extensions to work in SeaMonkey. Without that, 1.1.x was really not a usable piece of work, at least without Multizilla, which basically converted it to another application entirely. I object to this. SeaMonkey 1.1.x is very usable without extensions. Well, it depends on your usage. Sure it works. But so does Safari/Mail, FF/TB, Opera, and any other number of other applications, or combination of applications. Heck, so does Netscape 7.2, though the browser is feeling its age. But to get it to work for me, with the functions I depend on, requires extensions. I have a great appreciation for the convenience of one application for mail, newsgroups, and RSS feeds. SM 1.1.x out of the box does not do RSS, it requires an extension, Forumzilla worked pretty well for me. PrefBar is a convenience, but a very handy one that I install first thing. Web Developer Toolbar is one I rely on. Mnenhy, Quote Collapse, Quote Colors, FolderPane Tools make Mail/News far more usable. Lightning has become a must have for full functionality. FlashBlock, Tab Clicking Options are very important to me for function in the browser. FireFTP is handy. ForecastFox is not a really necessary item, but I also find it very handy. A lot of these extensions were fine in SM 1 1.x, but many required xSidebar to install. Without xSidebar and the Extension Manager extension, there was no extension management to peak of, making it a real chore. So sure, if your needs are simply to browse the internet, read mail and newsgroups, SM 1.1.x is fine out of the box. For me it is not, and I stand by my statement. Lee ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 19:28:43 -0200, MCBastos wrote: You have a boat. It has a wooden hull, it's old and leaky. You have three guys to work on the boat. They spend all the time plugging leaks. Then someone offers you a brand-new, fiberglass hull. You move your engine, bunks, head, kitchen etc. to the new hull. Only, a couple bunks didn't fit the new hull (despite it being actually a little bigger), so you had to do without them for the time being. Sure, right now you have less bunks -- but your three guys have a lot of free time now, so they fewer bunks. Phil (sorry, couldn't resist) -- Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Philip Chee wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 19:28:43 -0200, MCBastos wrote: You have a boat. It has a wooden hull, it's old and leaky. You have three guys to work on the boat. They spend all the time plugging leaks. Then someone offers you a brand-new, fiberglass hull. You move your engine, bunks, head, kitchen etc. to the new hull. Only, a couple bunks didn't fit the new hull (despite it being actually a little bigger), so you had to do without them for the time being. Sure, right now you have less bunks -- but your three guys have a lot of free time now, so they fewer bunks. Phil (sorry, couldn't resist) ...it's de-bunked. (I couldn't resist either...) -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
In news:cfadnyjlv636srlwnz2dnuvz_hidn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: »Q« wrote: In news:j7qdntbkupghy7pwnz2dnuvz_uwdn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: »Q« wrote: The form manager feature of SeaMonkey 1.x isn't in SM 2.0.x because the codebase which supports it has been abandoned by the people working on Mozilla core code. Polling users wouldn't make those people re-implement it for the newer codebase, and the SeaMonkey team hasn't (yet) been able to do that themselves. ...so, what you've just told me is that the Form Manager doesn't have a snowball's chance of coming back. That's not at all what I've just told you or even based on what I've just told you. You must have some other reason for thinking there will never again be a form manager in SeaMonkey. ...you used the words abandoned and core. That means no, as far as I'm concerned. You're right that no one will revive the Mozilla 1.8 code, but that certainly doesn't mean that SeaMonkey will never again have a forms manager. -- »Q« /\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign \ / against html e-mailX http://asciiribbon.org/ / \ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Philip Chee wrote: On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 22:10:03 -0800, Rufus wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:33:15 -0800, Rufus wrote: Yes, but the interface options/functionality between the two is different - most notably in that I can drag and drop Account/NG order in TB, and I can't in SM. And I just discovered that in TB I can open a You can dnd Newsgroup order in SeaMonkey 2.0. As for Account order, it is on our wanted list. Just needs some manpower to do it. Gee this is niceTa!! Daniel tab for each server/subscription if I want, and those tabs don't close at shutdown and the state is remembered at the next startup - I really like that. Same problem. Lack of resources to work on our wanted-tb3 list. Phil ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:57:54 -0500, Phillip Jones wrote: since I am a user I would have no standing with him a developer, nor would I have the funds to pay him to do it. So I guess will have to make do until he gets tired of maintaining it. You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of Open Source. Perhaps you should just give up and install Maxthon. Phil -- Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. [ ]Evil Grin #13 GRIN * TagZilla 0.066.6 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Phillip Jones wrote: Never mind you still can't see a users point of view. Never mind that I was one of the first people in the project to suggest we introduce some management window for the new form data, to come in a later version after 2.0 - I suggested that back in January or February of this year. But what it needs to get done is someone to do the work, suggestions and rants alone are not enough. Robert Kaiser ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Philip Chee wrote: On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:57:54 -0500, Phillip Jones wrote: since I am a user I would have no standing with him a developer, nor would I have the funds to pay him to do it. So I guess will have to make do until he gets tired of maintaining it. You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of Open Source. Perhaps you should just give up and install Maxthon. Phil No I'll just use SM as is. Sm is 100 times better than any alternative. Just disappointed at things left out. But I've been through this rodeo before. Back when the removed in Communicator the ability to check bookmarks for dead links. I fussed about the same then and it did no good then. Now I've got tons of links I have no idea whether are dead, been renamed or what. But I just persevere. You do what you can do. We just have to deal with it. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Robert Kaiser wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Never mind you still can't see a users point of view. Never mind that I was one of the first people in the project to suggest we introduce some management window for the new form data, to come in a later version after 2.0 - I suggested that back in January or February of this year. But what it needs to get done is someone to do the work, suggestions and rants alone are not enough. Robert Kaiser I've given up. I will just muddle along and deal with it. I went through the same upset back in Communicator days when they removed the ability find and remove dead/duplicate/changed URLs in the bookmarks. and there have been other battles. I finally decide I am beating my head against a brick wall and no one pays attention, so I give up. Each item removed, raises my blood pressure and aggravates my reflux disorder, But that's me. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Phillip Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:57:54 -0500, Phillip Jones wrote: since I am a user I would have no standing with him a developer, nor would I have the funds to pay him to do it. So I guess will have to make do until he gets tired of maintaining it. You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of Open Source. Perhaps you should just give up and install Maxthon. Phil No I'll just use SM as is. Sm is 100 times better than any alternative. Just disappointed at things left out. But I've been through this rodeo before. Back when the removed in Communicator the ability to check bookmarks for dead links. I fussed about the same then and it did no good then. Now I've got tons of links I have no idea whether are dead, been renamed or what. But I just persevere. You do what you can do. We just have to deal with it. Phillip you might try this http://www.aignes.com/deadlink.htm as it is what I use -- just a thought. -- You either teach people to treat you with dignity and respect, or you don't. This means you are partly responsible for the mistreatment that you get at the hands of someone else. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Phillip Jones wrote: Never mind you still can't see a users point of view. The user's point of view is irrelevant in this case, and not what we were talking about. It was a development issue, plain and simple. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
JAS wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:57:54 -0500, Phillip Jones wrote: since I am a user I would have no standing with him a developer, nor would I have the funds to pay him to do it. So I guess will have to make do until he gets tired of maintaining it. You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of Open Source. Perhaps you should just give up and install Maxthon. Phil No I'll just use SM as is. Sm is 100 times better than any alternative. Just disappointed at things left out. But I've been through this rodeo before. Back when the removed in Communicator the ability to check bookmarks for dead links. I fussed about the same then and it did no good then. Now I've got tons of links I have no idea whether are dead, been renamed or what. But I just persevere. You do what you can do. We just have to deal with it. Phillip you might try this http://www.aignes.com/deadlink.htm as it is what I use -- just a thought. no version for Mac or SeaMonkey Thanks That feature was years before it s time It was back in the day of 14.4k baud modems. Would be great on today's DSL or Cable Modems. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Benoit Renard wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Never mind you still can't see a users point of view. The user's point of view is irrelevant in this case, and not what we were talking about. It was a development issue, plain and simple. ...if users aren't being considered in a development path, that's a pretty inconsiderate way to develop a product. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Phillip Jones replied On 12/20/2009 10:05 AM Philip Chee wrote: On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:57:54 -0500, Phillip Jones wrote: since I am a user I would have no standing with him a developer, nor would I have the funds to pay him to do it. So I guess will have to make do until he gets tired of maintaining it. You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of Open Source. Perhaps you should just give up and install Maxthon. Phil No I'll just use SM as is. Sm is 100 times better than any alternative. Just disappointed at things left out. But I've been through this rodeo before. Back when the removed in Communicator the ability to check bookmarks for dead links. I fussed about the same then and it did no good then. Now I've got tons of links I have no idea whether are dead, been renamed or what. But I just persevere. You do what you can do. We just have to deal with it. Philip, Try this one, it's what I use to check links. http://home.snafu.de/tilman/xenulink.html If you don't have this you might give it a try for your Mac and Windows applications. Michael ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
In news:poqdnxdfxsh75bpwnz2dnuvz_vbi4...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: Benoit Renard wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Never mind you still can't see a users point of view. The user's point of view is irrelevant in this case, and not what we were talking about. It was a development issue, plain and simple. ...if users aren't being considered in a development path, that's a pretty inconsiderate way to develop a product. That's a huge if. The consideration, explained dozens of times so far, was not users want a form manager but we don't care but rather users want a form manager but there's not one or a way to get one in a realistic time frame. SeaMonkey 1.1 was released well over three years ago, which is approximately forever in browser timelines. Projects that don't make new releases wither and die. 2.0 took so long because there was so much work to be done and so few developers dedicated to doing it. Did they do every bit of work any every might wanted them to? Well, no, because there aren't enough of them or enough time for that. What they did do was put a lot of work in to produce a modern browser suite. I find it amazing that some people conclude that the devs either don't care about users or actively work against users' wishes, when those same people continue to use the browser suite (either 1.1.x or 2.0.x) that those same devs have spent years to produce. The devs have asked for and gotten a lot of constructive feedback from users in this group, but multiple posts complaining about the same feature ad nauseam and filled with all manner of malicious, unfounded allegations about devs are only sapping energy that could be used to improve SeaMonkey. IMO, what users who want a forms manager should now do is look for an extension developer who might provide one; there are some for Firefox that people could check out and encourage the authors to make SM-compatible. At least one complainer has already said he's completely unwilling to do that, but others could do it. -- »Q« /\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign \ / against html e-mailX http://asciiribbon.org/ / \ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Philip Chee wrote: On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:57:54 -0500, Phillip Jones wrote: since I am a user I would have no standing with him a developer, nor would I have the funds to pay him to do it. So I guess will have to make do until he gets tired of maintaining it. You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of Open Source. Perhaps you should just give up and install Maxthon. Phil Not an option, he's on a Mac. Lee ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Rufus wrote: ...if users aren't being considered in a development path, that's a pretty inconsiderate way to develop a product. I fully agree. The picture is just not that simple usually, and most of the time it's tradeoffs between listening to different user bases, or tradeoffs causing to get some large improvements while losing some smaller thing(s) or tradeoffs between getting something shipped and being perfect. Usually, when you create something, you have to make some hard decisions involving such tradeoffs, and the same if true here. And that's what project management is all about. If you have ever done such a job, in business or in non-profit space, you probably know what I mean. We're trying our best to deliver the best software we can - that may sometimes not be enough for everyone, but believe me, we're trying hard to deliver the best thing we can do for our users. In terms of SeaMonkey 2, those decisions were in a few cases between letting the project as a whole die or replacing some old feature with a new feature that works differently. How would you decide in such a situation? Robert Kaiser ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus wrote: ...if users aren't being considered in a development path, that's a pretty inconsiderate way to develop a product. I fully agree. The picture is just not that simple usually, and most of the time it's tradeoffs between listening to different user bases, or tradeoffs causing to get some large improvements while losing some smaller thing(s) or tradeoffs between getting something shipped and being perfect. Usually, when you create something, you have to make some hard decisions involving such tradeoffs, and the same if true here. And that's what project management is all about. If you have ever done such a job, in business or in non-profit space, you probably know what I mean. We're trying our best to deliver the best software we can - that may sometimes not be enough for everyone, but believe me, we're trying hard to deliver the best thing we can do for our users. In terms of SeaMonkey 2, those decisions were in a few cases between letting the project as a whole die or replacing some old feature with a new feature that works differently. How would you decide in such a situation? Robert Kaiser The above pretty much sums up what I do for a living for software driven human interfaces for systems...keep in mind, I'm not a coder - I'm an evaluator/configuration manager. In my professional world I have a user base that has formal training requirements and the requirement to maintain skillset - there are no such user requirements for using SM, and so IMO maintaining a stable configuration with an informative interface is of paramount importance if the team wishes to adequately service the widest user base. Here are a number of points for consideration: 1) make under the hood security oriented implementations without impacting current user interface. And I mean ZERO impact or change to the interface - make them user transparent. 2) poll users as to which interface changes are acceptable to the widest number of users before making interface changes - particularly big ones, like deleting the Forms Manager; or very notable ones like reducing the sizes of user input areas/presentations. 3) never make an interface change without explaining just what has changed in the text of a dialog box for the new functionality, or in the remaining box of the remaining function - no trade or revision without accompanying explanation, at least at the first introduction of that trade. Coders need to remain aware SM must both inform and serve. 4) adopt a schedule for release and release fewer changes per cycle - this could be done on a shorter cycle, allowing for more releases. 5) adopt a longer release cycle for major changes to allow user polling and beta test of (all) pending implementations prior to formal release - this would fit a longer cycle with fewer releases. 6) adopt a criteria for scrap/elimination of implementation(s) during beta test prior to formal release based on user feedback - not coder feedback. 7) discarding old features just because they are old doesn't even enter into the equation - if the old feature provides adequate and widely accepted user function, then it's priority for deletion and/or replacement or change should be THE lowest possible, until it's implementation is totally outstripped by current technology. 8) ALWAYS be ready to re-introduce a previous user interface implementation based on user acceptance (or lack thereof) by maintaining modular/transportable code, and maintain/archive historical state of each release configuration. Fit required new under the hood code into the previous user presentation - add, but do not delete user options in doing so. 9) consolidate and streamline interfaces by smartly combining dialog and/or input presentations without deleting user choice unless those choices/options become completely outstripped by current technology. 10) consider the broadest base of abilities, users, and equipment possible - for all platforms and users - when making interface changes. What is a move forward for one may actually be a closed door for another. No coder should make any change based on personal preference alone. Consider and code to the worst case user scenario(s) - not coder preference. That a REALLY short treatise on how I've done it...and a fair start for anyone else. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
On 12/20/2009 07:36 PM, Rufus wrote: Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus wrote: ...if users aren't being considered in a development path, that's a pretty inconsiderate way to develop a product. I fully agree. The picture is just not that simple usually, and most of the time it's tradeoffs between listening to different user bases, or tradeoffs causing to get some large improvements while losing some smaller thing(s) or tradeoffs between getting something shipped and being perfect. Usually, when you create something, you have to make some hard decisions involving such tradeoffs, and the same if true here. And that's what project management is all about. If you have ever done such a job, in business or in non-profit space, you probably know what I mean. We're trying our best to deliver the best software we can - that may sometimes not be enough for everyone, but believe me, we're trying hard to deliver the best thing we can do for our users. In terms of SeaMonkey 2, those decisions were in a few cases between letting the project as a whole die or replacing some old feature with a new feature that works differently. How would you decide in such a situation? Robert Kaiser The above pretty much sums up what I do for a living for software driven human interfaces for systems...keep in mind, I'm not a coder - I'm an evaluator/configuration manager. In my professional world I have a user base that has formal training requirements and the requirement to maintain skillset - there are no such user requirements for using SM, and so IMO maintaining a stable configuration with an informative interface is of paramount importance if the team wishes to adequately service the widest user base. snipped good points in a paid environment That a REALLY short treatise on how I've done it...and a fair start for anyone else. Bear in mind that you are paid, work in a paid environment, evaluate UI's in software/systems that have budgets, etc. All of your points are good valid... how about volunteering your non-professional time to the SeaMonkey project? I'm sure that the SeaMonkey developers (who are unpaid volunteer their time) would welcome your expertise. http://www.seamonkey-project.org/dev/get-involved ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
NoOp wrote: On 12/20/2009 07:36 PM, Rufus wrote: Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus wrote: ...if users aren't being considered in a development path, that's a pretty inconsiderate way to develop a product. I fully agree. The picture is just not that simple usually, and most of the time it's tradeoffs between listening to different user bases, or tradeoffs causing to get some large improvements while losing some smaller thing(s) or tradeoffs between getting something shipped and being perfect. Usually, when you create something, you have to make some hard decisions involving such tradeoffs, and the same if true here. And that's what project management is all about. If you have ever done such a job, in business or in non-profit space, you probably know what I mean. We're trying our best to deliver the best software we can - that may sometimes not be enough for everyone, but believe me, we're trying hard to deliver the best thing we can do for our users. In terms of SeaMonkey 2, those decisions were in a few cases between letting the project as a whole die or replacing some old feature with a new feature that works differently. How would you decide in such a situation? Robert Kaiser The above pretty much sums up what I do for a living for software driven human interfaces for systems...keep in mind, I'm not a coder - I'm an evaluator/configuration manager. In my professional world I have a user base that has formal training requirements and the requirement to maintain skillset - there are no such user requirements for using SM, and so IMO maintaining a stable configuration with an informative interface is of paramount importance if the team wishes to adequately service the widest user base. snipped good points in a paid environment That a REALLY short treatise on how I've done it...and a fair start for anyone else. Bear in mind that you are paid, work in a paid environment, evaluate UI's in software/systems that have budgets, etc. All of your points are good valid... how about volunteering your non-professional time to the SeaMonkey project? I'm sure that the SeaMonkey developers (who are unpaid volunteer their time) would welcome your expertise. http://www.seamonkey-project.org/dev/get-involved As I said, I'm an evaluator/manager - not a coder. I can give advise, and I can manage...and coders can ignore me - like they do at work. Until I point out the risks... ...and SM's user base is WAY larger than mine. I'd likely be a good beta tester. That's about the best I can offer. But the coders would have to actually listen to me, or I wouldn't be of much help. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
»Q« wrote: Innews:poqdnxdfxsh75bpwnz2dnuvz_vbi4...@mozilla.org, Rufusn...@home.com wrote: Benoit Renard wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Never mind you still can't see a users point of view. The user's point of view is irrelevant in this case, and not what we were talking about. It was a development issue, plain and simple. ...if users aren't being considered in a development path, that's a pretty inconsiderate way to develop a product. That's a huge if. The consideration, explained dozens of times so far, was not users want a form manager but we don't care but rather users want a form manager but there's not one or a way to get one in a realistic time frame. SeaMonkey 1.1 was released well over three years ago, which is approximately forever in browser timelines. Projects that don't make new releases wither and die. 2.0 took so long because there was so much work to be done and so few developers dedicated to doing it. Did they do every bit of work any every might wanted them to? Well, no, because there aren't enough of them or enough time for that. What they did do was put a lot of work in to produce a modern browser suite. I find it amazing that some people conclude that the devs either don't care about users or actively work against users' wishes, when those same people continue to use the browser suite (either 1.1.x or 2.0.x) that those same devs have spent years to produce. Is it quite possible because there absolutely nothing out on the market any better than SeaMonkey. Absolutely nothing. I have Safari, iCab, FireFox, OmniWeb, Opera, Camino. SeaMonkey blows the socks off of all of them. The devs have asked for and gotten a lot of constructive feedback from users in this group, but multiple posts complaining about the same feature ad nauseam and filled with all manner of malicious, unfounded allegations about devs are only sapping energy that could be used to improve SeaMonkey. There was no accusations that developers were sapping energy. SM2 is a greatest Browser/Mail/news Product bar none. There is nothing on Earth and possibly Mars any better. Is it perfect. No. Are we disappointed in left out items. You Betcha! IMO, what users who want a forms manager should now do is look for an extension developer who might provide one; there are some for Firefox that people could check out and encourage the authors to make SM-compatible. At least one complainer has already said he's completely unwilling to do that, but others could do it. If your referring to whom I think you are. He said that as a lowly user such as he, he would be ignored, an individual user has no standing with developers. And, he didn't have the funds to pay him. If he had money, and influence he would be on the phone with him in a heart beat. An individual user has no influence with a developer. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:25:37 -0500, Leonidas Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of Open Source. Perhaps you should just give up and install Maxthon. Not an option, he's on a Mac. Parellels, VMWare Fusion, probably Virtual Box. Phil -- Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. [ ]No bathroom? Just boldly go where no man has gone before! * TagZilla 0.066.6 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Philip Chee wrote: On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:25:37 -0500, Leonidas Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of Open Source. Perhaps you should just give up and install Maxthon. Not an option, he's on a Mac. Parellels, VMWare Fusion, probably Virtual Box. Phil If I had an Intel Mac Possibly. But with a PowerPC That's out. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Philip Chee wrote: On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:25:37 -0500, Leonidas Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of Open Source. Perhaps you should just give up and install Maxthon. Not an option, he's on a Mac. Parellels, VMWare Fusion, probably Virtual Box. Phil VirtualBox is great, though I've never tried on a G4, which is where Phillip is. Still not an answer for a full time browser regardless. Safari would be the best, though I know he doesn't want to go there. Lee ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
In news:796dna1o5zc2clpwnz2dnuvz_hcdn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: That a REALLY short treatise on how I've done it...and a fair start for anyone else. Some of what you wrote is applicable to SeaMonkey and some isn't. There were some underlying assumptions, such as the project team having complete control over the codebase, which isn't the case here. The SeaMonkey team has to leverage Mozilla's codebase, over which they don't have control. (The folks who do have control generally try not to hurt SeaMonkey efforts, but that's not the same thing.) For example, 2) poll users as to which interface changes are acceptable to the widest number of users before making interface changes - particularly big ones, like deleting the Forms Manager; or very notable ones like reducing the sizes of user input areas/presentations. The form manager feature of SeaMonkey 1.x isn't in SM 2.0.x because the codebase which supports it has been abandoned by the people working on Mozilla core code. Polling users wouldn't make those people re-implement it for the newer codebase, and the SeaMonkey team hasn't (yet) been able to do that themselves. The alternative to releasing a modern SeaMonkey without the forms manager would be either make no more releases or to keep making releases based on ancient, bitrotting code that the SeaMonkey team doesn't have the manpower to maintain. Users who really would prefer the make no more releases option can keep using the last 1.1.x SM release. -- »Q« /\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign \ / against html e-mailX http://asciiribbon.org/ / \ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
»Q« wrote: Innews:796dna1o5zc2clpwnz2dnuvz_hcdn...@mozilla.org, Rufusn...@home.com wrote: That a REALLY short treatise on how I've done it...and a fair start for anyone else. Some of what you wrote is applicable to SeaMonkey and some isn't. There were some underlying assumptions, such as the project team having complete control over the codebase, which isn't the case here. The SeaMonkey team has to leverage Mozilla's codebase, over which they don't have control. (The folks who do have control generally try not to hurt SeaMonkey efforts, but that's not the same thing.) They do have control over Themes, and that's a lot more control than I think the team stops to consider. The SM team is basically a subcontractor to a clearing house - work the wrapper, not the candy. For example, 2) poll users as to which interface changes are acceptable to the widest number of users before making interface changes - particularly big ones, like deleting the Forms Manager; or very notable ones like reducing the sizes of user input areas/presentations. The form manager feature of SeaMonkey 1.x isn't in SM 2.0.x because the codebase which supports it has been abandoned by the people working on Mozilla core code. Polling users wouldn't make those people re-implement it for the newer codebase, and the SeaMonkey team hasn't (yet) been able to do that themselves. ...so, what you've just told me is that the Form Manager doesn't have a snowball's chance of coming back. The alternative to releasing a modern SeaMonkey without the forms manager would be either make no more releases or to keep making releases based on ancient, bitrotting code that the SeaMonkey team doesn't have the manpower to maintain. Users who really would prefer the make no more releases option can keep using the last 1.1.x SM release. And that's likely what we will do - thanks. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Leonidas Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:25:37 -0500, Leonidas Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of Open Source. Perhaps you should just give up and install Maxthon. Not an option, he's on a Mac. Parellels, VMWare Fusion, probably Virtual Box. Phil VirtualBox is great, though I've never tried on a G4, which is where Phillip is. Still not an answer for a full time browser regardless. Safari would be the best, though I know he doesn't want to go there. Lee I have Safari I and I can do less with it than SM and its slower. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Phillip Jones wrote: Rufus wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Rufus wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:33:15 -0800, Rufus wrote: ...which brings up a good point - the changes in Thunderbird were/are actually for the better...on all but on point I can think of. This is surprising since we share the exact same mailnews backend code as Thunderbird 3.0. Phil Yes, but the interface options/functionality between the two is different - most notably in that I can drag and drop Account/NG order in TB, and I can't in SM. And I just discovered that in TB I can open a tab for each server/subscription if I want, and those tabs don't close at shutdown and the state is remembered at the next startup - I really like that. The only thing I've seen in TB 3.0 that I don't like so far is that the Attachment icon in the message tray is displayed too small - but that could be sufficiently addressed by making it scale in accord with the user set height of the tray. Function to the user makes all the difference - not so much what's under the hood. I'm becoming more inclined to start using TB more. You can for get that tab thingy I turned that off ASAP. I hate tabs worth a Passion. and the are memory wasters also. ...maybe that's a PC thing...I got no issues with memory and tabs on my Macs... I use a Mac as well I've even used a program built into the Mac OS that monitors memory usage and over the years I verified that every time a new tab is opened more memory is used. Yes, Phillip, I think that has been stated, here, before. Anew Tab *WILL* use more memory. As an experiment, open your home page and use your Mac OS memory monitor program to see how much memory is in use. Now open a new *TAB* and go to another of your favourite pages. When it finishes loading, check the memory usage. Close this Tab. Open a new Window a go to the same favourite page. When it finishes loading, check the memory usage. Close this Window. Compare the results.which uses the more memory, a new TAB or a new window?? (Sure, after you've downloaded the favourite page into a TAB, when you then load it into a new Window, SM will just get the page contents from the Cache, so it will display much quicker, but that's not what we're testing here, are we??) Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Benoit Renard wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Also if some one sends you an image as an attachment that is so large you have to scroll side to side or up and down the is a menu choice Autofit and it reduce to fit screen. That feature has been built-in since SeaMonkey 1.1.x. Open the image directly (which you probably do) and click on the image. Thank you so much! I had no idea that was available, and have friends that frequently send pictures that you can't appreciate, because of the size. I thought VIEW image was for trying to see pictures that give you only that little MS block... and had never tried it on one of those large images, that I *could* see. That's a great feature. :) bj ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Benoit Renard wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Benoit Renard wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: I do like the way we had a forms manager as in SM 1.1.x and sad that it removed because they didn't have the time, energy, know-how or desire to do a port of it in the new code. This is correct. (Despite all the protestations otherwise by the developers, they decided because they didn't use it there wasn't a need for it so they dumped it.) But this is wrong. You gave the correct explanation at first, so why do you follow it up with lies? Patches welcome. It isn't a lie if they thought was useful for people to use. they would have made the effort to find someone to look at and port it over. But since they didn't use it they didn't see a need. No one stepped up in the span of, what, two years, to work on it, and by now they weren't going to hold up the release for it. You talk as if it's easy to find someone to work on something, especially when everyone is already busy doing other work. Stop spreading nonsense already. Well that made it easy to get rid of it. Did anyone bother look to find the originator of the original code? No you don't need to hold up release if no one is willing/able to work on it. no lies , just facts is facts. It must have not been to0 terrible to code. I mean you have a person to come up with a replacement in the form of an add on. Get him to added it in SeaMonkey. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
chicagofan wrote: Benoit Renard wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Also if some one sends you an image as an attachment that is so large you have to scroll side to side or up and down the is a menu choice Autofit and it reduce to fit screen. That feature has been built-in since SeaMonkey 1.1.x. Open the image directly (which you probably do) and click on the image. Thank you so much! I had no idea that was available, and have friends that frequently send pictures that you can't appreciate, because of the size. I thought VIEW image was for trying to see pictures that give you only that little MS block... and had never tried it on one of those large images, that I *could* see. That's a great feature. :) bj in 1.1.x I never was able to get a image to reduce. I was able if a I had a problem with an image I could double click on it and it would open in its own page (if sent as an attachment). I've been a user of a Mozilla all in one since the days of Netscape Navigator 3.0.1.a Gold. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Phillip Jones wrote: Well that made it easy to get rid of it. Did anyone bother look to find the originator of the original code? You mean Netscape? Or actually a Netscape employee named morse, who wrote or imported the wallet code in early 1999 and placed it into http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/extensions/wallet/ and who does not work on anything related to Mozilla any more, has no email address available and who probably doesn't care a bit about SeaMonkey? No you don't need to hold up release if no one is willing/able to work on it. Right, and that was the case - and still seems to be. People are talking a lot about it, but the only thing that changes something is someone willing to work on it and delivering that work in a patch. It must have not been to0 terrible to code. Have you actually read it? See the above link, dig into the code (that is, when you find what's the password management and what the form management parts of it in the first place) and make a picture yourself. We did not find anyone willing to maintain that code or work on it to make it work well with the new platform infrastructure - but maybe you come to different conclusions. I mean you have a person to come up with a replacement in the form of an add on. Get him to added it in SeaMonkey. You're welcome to help and take that part of getting him to add it in SeaMonkey, we'd all be happy about it. Robert Kaiser ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Robert Kaiser wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Well that made it easy to get rid of it. Did anyone bother look to find the originator of the original code? You mean Netscape? Or actually a Netscape employee named morse, who wrote or imported the wallet code in early 1999 and placed it into http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/extensions/wallet/ and who does not work on anything related to Mozilla any more, has no email address available and who probably doesn't care a bit about SeaMonkey? No you don't need to hold up release if no one is willing/able to work on it. Right, and that was the case - and still seems to be. People are talking a lot about it, but the only thing that changes something is someone willing to work on it and delivering that work in a patch. It must have not been to0 terrible to code. Have you actually read it? See the above link, dig into the code (that is, when you find what's the password management and what the form management parts of it in the first place) and make a picture yourself. We did not find anyone willing to maintain that code or work on it to make it work well with the new platform infrastructure - but maybe you come to different conclusions. I mean you have a person to come up with a replacement in the form of an add on. Get him to added it in SeaMonkey. You're welcome to help and take that part of getting him to add it in SeaMonkey, we'd all be happy about it. Robert Kaiser Never mind you still can't see a users point of view. So I give up . its useless. I am but one user and since I am a user I would have no standing with him a developer, nor would I have the funds to pay him to do it. So I guess will have to make do until he gets tired of maintaining it. So this is the last on the subject. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Philip Chee wrote: On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 15:28:27 -0700, NFN Smith wrote: - Duplicate Tab: 1.0.2 supports Seamonkey 2.0a2, but not 2.0.1 Looks like it just needs to have the maxVersion that it advertises to be incremented. Not surprising. - Mnenhy: 0.7.6 is the most recent. Apparently, it doesn't support Thunderbird 3, either. Mynromyr is hard at work on SM2/TB3 compatibility. He says he is about 2/3 of the way through. I suspected that to be the case. I was going to write him and ask where he's going with that one, and this saves me the effort. I interacted with him before on other things with that one, and he noted that he thought my feature suggestions were good, the major limitation was time on his part. Thus, it means that I don't have to bug him with an extra email. Knowing that that's in-progress, I'm content to wait for that one. - Customize Google: it looks like development on this one has stopped. Optimize Google appears to aspire to continue, but is currently listed as experimental. I don't know anything about these. - Image Zoom: I have 0.3.1 installed on a test copy of Seamonkey 2.0.1. It installed OK, but doesn't seem to work (e.g., no presence in context menus). I have a working port of 0.4 for SeaMonkey. Just doing some QA before announcing it. I noticed that in other discussion. I'll look forward to seeing the result. Thanks for your work on that one. It's a nice feature to have. The other extension I follow is IETab, although I think it's not essential for me. I know that the last time I did an uninstall/reinstall of Seamonkey for a version upgrade, I didn't bother to reinstall that one, and I haven't really missed it. I have seen the discussion relating to Coral IETab, and I've played with that briefly on a test configuration. Objectively, I would love to see a way to get the necessary plugin support enabled, as I do think that helps with long-term use of Seamonkey (where it's possible to get to IE on the occasions that's needed). Given that SeaMonkey has a little more of an enterprise focus that TB/FF, to some measure, I think that SeaMonkey users may be more likely to bump into sites that require IE, and having the ability to call IE from inside SeaMonkey would allow for use SeaMonkey when they want, without having to do a separate launch of IE for the sites that require IE. Smith ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
hawker wrote: Anyone out there a Seamonkey user who was not a Netscape users? Yup! That's me. A message board I visited many years back had Linux fan on it who regularly praised the suite, then known as Mozilla. I tried it, and never looked back. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Phillip Jones wrote: I do like the way we had a forms manager as in SM 1.1.x and sad that it removed because they didn't have the time, energy, know-how or desire to do a port of it in the new code. This is correct. (Despite all the protestations otherwise by the developers, they decided because they didn't use it there wasn't a need for it so they dumped it.) But this is wrong. You gave the correct explanation at first, so why do you follow it up with lies? Patches welcome. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
On 16 dic, 17:39, Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com wrote: buhonero escribió: Así pues, sólo tiene que preguntarse si la mayoría de nosotros, las personas son sólo para Firefox Netscape celebrar complementos que no se siente cómodo con el Firefox / Thunderbird Interfaz por cualquier razón? ¿Hay alguien allí un usuario de Firefox que no era un usuarios de Netscape? En cuanto a mí se inició el 1.x Netscape 4.6x aunque luego saltar a Netscape 7.x (6.x nunca funcionó bien para mí), a Mozilla Suite y, a continuación Complementos. Firefox / Thunderbird nunca se sintió cómodo para mí ya que Sabía Netscape mejor y así me quedo aquí con Firefox. Definitivamente. No llegué a utilizar una suite hasta SM-1.0.6 (que se puede encontrar en cabeceras de los mensajes, de todos modos). Empecé en ARPAnet en los años 90, no necesitamos ninguna suites apestoso. Uso Mosaic, el comando de correo UNIX y RN. No entrar en chat hasta CZ ya estaba fuera, que me llevó a SM. -- Bill Davidsen david...tmr.com Tenemos más que temer de la torpeza de los incompetentes que de la de las maquinaciones de los malvados. - de Barrapunto very nice friend, the time old school ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Phillip Jones wrote: Also if some one sends you an image as an attachment that is so large you have to scroll side to side or up and down the is a menu choice Autofit and it reduce to fit screen. That feature has been built-in since SeaMonkey 1.1.x. Open the image directly (which you probably do) and click on the image. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Leonidas Jones wrote: I'm not seeing any way to get SeaMonkey to zoom just images. From here it appears to either images and text or nothing. I'm pretty sure you can still zoom only text. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Paul Hartman wrote: some AJAX-heavy sites that don't work entirely properly in Seamonkey for whatever reason (Facebook, Google Sites, etc). In FaceBook's case, that's known to be caused by browser sniffing. Complain to FaceBook to get them to stop this nonsense. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Benoit Renard wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: I'm not seeing any way to get SeaMonkey to zoom just images. From here it appears to either images and text or nothing. I'm pretty sure you can still zoom only text. Firefox has a zoom text only finction, but ViewZoom in SeaMonkey 2.0.1 does not seem to have it. Or is it hidden somewhere else? Lee ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Benoit Renard wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: I do like the way we had a forms manager as in SM 1.1.x and sad that it removed because they didn't have the time, energy, know-how or desire to do a port of it in the new code. This is correct. (Despite all the protestations otherwise by the developers, they decided because they didn't use it there wasn't a need for it so they dumped it.) But this is wrong. You gave the correct explanation at first, so why do you follow it up with lies? Patches welcome. It isn't a lie if they thought was useful for people to use. they would have made the effort to find someone to look at and port it over. But since they didn't use it they didn't see a need. Granted as part of this decision, they didn't have time, energy, desire, know-how to do it. But developers especially for open source, if they don't use something, they don't see a need and they fore they can take less time by removing it. For Profit on the other hand build sole for the CEO and Board of Directors, Consumers have very little to do with it. Use users just have to deal with it. I'm sorry if I sound cynical. But I've been dealing with computers and computer software since the early 80's. I've been on many forums, for many software companies. And I continue to see this running thread. That The consumer or user figures very little into software development. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Benoit Renard wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: I'm not seeing any way to get SeaMonkey to zoom just images. From here it appears to either images and text or nothing. I'm pretty sure you can still zoom only text. No SM built in zoom zooms or reduces everything text and images. while image zoom does just that. zoom or reduce and image. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Leonidas Jones: Firefox has a zoom text only finction, but ViewZoom in SeaMonkey 2.0.1 does not seem to have it. Or is it hidden somewhere else? Right side, last row. http://www.triffids.de/pub/screenshot/tx091219.png (36 KB) Hartmut ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
On 12/18/2009 3:39 PM, Phillip Jones wrote: Benoit Renard wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: I do like the way we had a forms manager as in SM 1.1.x and sad that it removed because they didn't have the time, energy, know-how or desire to do a port of it in the new code. This is correct. (Despite all the protestations otherwise by the developers, they decided because they didn't use it there wasn't a need for it so they dumped it.) But this is wrong. You gave the correct explanation at first, so why do you follow it up with lies? Patches welcome. It isn't a lie if they thought was useful for people to use. they would have made the effort to find someone to look at and port it over. But since they didn't use it they didn't see a need. Granted as part of this decision, they didn't have time, energy, desire, know-how to do it. But developers especially for open source, if they don't use something, they don't see a need and they fore they can take less time by removing it. Good Grief! Do you realize that the collection of people working on SeaMonkey isn't large enough to fix everything? The rest of your argument is so ridiculous that I don't think it needs comment. Other readers will take from it what they will. For Profit on the other hand build sole for the CEO and Board of Directors, Consumers have very little to do with it. Also an unfair generalization. I've worked for For Profit companies developing software solutions, and the customer has always had a very large voice in what we did. They were paying the bills after all. Use users just have to deal with it. I'm sorry if I sound cynical. But Cynical is not the word I would use. Why are you here? Do you believe you are enlightening others in the workings of the real world? Do you understand that the people working on SeaMonkey are volunteers? They are working in their spare time for no monetary compensation. I've been dealing with computers and computer software since the early 80's. I've been on many forums, for many software companies. And I continue to see this running thread. That The consumer or user figures very little into software development. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Hartmut Figge wrote: Leonidas Jones: Firefox has a zoom text only finction, but ViewZoom in SeaMonkey 2.0.1 does not seem to have it. Or is it hidden somewhere else? Right side, last row. http://www.triffids.de/pub/screenshot/tx091219.png (36 KB) Hartmut I have set that way. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Mark Hansen wrote: On 12/18/2009 3:39 PM, Phillip Jones wrote: Benoit Renard wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: I do like the way we had a forms manager as in SM 1.1.x and sad that it removed because they didn't have the time, energy, know-how or desire to do a port of it in the new code. This is correct. (Despite all the protestations otherwise by the developers, they decided because they didn't use it there wasn't a need for it so they dumped it.) But this is wrong. You gave the correct explanation at first, so why do you follow it up with lies? Patches welcome. It isn't a lie if they thought was useful for people to use. they would have made the effort to find someone to look at and port it over. But since they didn't use it they didn't see a need. Granted as part of this decision, they didn't have time, energy, desire, know-how to do it. But developers especially for open source, if they don't use something, they don't see a need and they fore they can take less time by removing it. Good Grief! Do you realize that the collection of people working on SeaMonkey isn't large enough to fix everything? The rest of your argument is so ridiculous that I don't think it needs comment. Other readers will take from it what they will. For Profit on the other hand build sole for the CEO and Board of Directors, Consumers have very little to do with it. Also an unfair generalization. I've worked for For Profit companies developing software solutions, and the customer has always had a very large voice in what we did. They were paying the bills after all. Use users just have to deal with it. I'm sorry if I sound cynical. But Cynical is not the word I would use. Why are you here? Do you believe you are enlightening others in the workings of the real world? Do you understand that the people working on SeaMonkey are volunteers? They are working in their spare time for no monetary compensation. I've been dealing with computers and computer software since the early 80's. I've been on many forums, for many software companies. And I continue to see this running thread. That The consumer or user figures very little into software development. I realize they are understaffed, and doing it for free, to have time and effort and find someone with the know how. if it something they don't use why expend the energy. Reality is reality. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Hartmut Figge wrote: Leonidas Jones: Firefox has a zoom text only finction, but ViewZoom in SeaMonkey 2.0.1 does not seem to have it. Or is it hidden somewhere else? Right side, last row. http://www.triffids.de/pub/screenshot/tx091219.png (36 KB) Hartmut Okay, that;s where it was hidden. I was expecting it to be in the same place as Firefox, in the view menu, not in preferences. Might be better in the view menu, to allow a quick choice as to what to zoom. Lee ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:01:42 -0500, Leonidas Jones wrote: Okay, that;s where it was hidden. I was expecting it to be in the same place as Firefox, in the view menu, not in preferences. Might be better in the view menu, to allow a quick choice as to what to zoom. Of course, this is a wanted feature, if only because there are Firefox extensions (that we would like the authors to port to SeaMonkey) that depend on that menu item being in the View menu. Phil -- Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. [ ](A)bort (R)etry (P)anic * TagZilla 0.066.6 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:13:49 -0500, hawker wrote: On 12/15/2009 9:15 PM, Martin Freitag wrote: I'm asking all this because I'm currently questing why I am staying on Seamonkey. I like a few things about it over Firefox/Thunderbird but with 2.0 out and many extensions broken or no longer supporting Seamonkey Which ones? Most popular extensions which worked in SM1 do work (some need compatibility enforcement) or have an equivalent in my opinion. There are a few, the biggest one is that Image Zoom 0.4 dropped SM support and 0.3x works on 1.1.x but not 2.x. My Image Zoom 0.3-mod still works in SeaMonkey 2.0 except that the context menu doesn't work. http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmisc.html#imagezoom Meanwhile I'll look into porting 0.4 = Added since 0.3.1 * Added Image Rotate Functions - Firefox Only * Removed support for Flock, Netscape, Seamonkey, Mozilla = ?? curses! Now where did I put the cluebat Phil -- Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. [ ]Logic means arriving at wrong conclusions with assurance. * TagZilla 0.066.6 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
On 12/17/2009 3:44 AM, Philip Chee wrote: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:13:49 -0500, hawker wrote: On 12/15/2009 9:15 PM, Martin Freitag wrote: I'm asking all this because I'm currently questing why I am staying on Seamonkey. I like a few things about it over Firefox/Thunderbird but with 2.0 out and many extensions broken or no longer supporting Seamonkey Which ones? Most popular extensions which worked in SM1 do work (some need compatibility enforcement) or have an equivalent in my opinion. There are a few, the biggest one is that Image Zoom 0.4 dropped SM support and 0.3x works on 1.1.x but not 2.x. My Image Zoom 0.3-mod still works in SeaMonkey 2.0 except that the context menu doesn't work. http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmisc.html#imagezoom Meanwhile I'll look into porting 0.4 = Added since 0.3.1 * Added Image Rotate Functions - Firefox Only * Removed support for Flock, Netscape, Seamonkey, Mozilla = ?? curses! Now where did I put the cluebat Phil Thank you. I didn't know that you modified 0.3.1. That makes a big difference. As to why I use Image Zoom. I work on a 1920 x 1200 24 monitor at work, and 1920 x 1200 17 laptop. Many many web images are just to small when rendered on such a high resolution screen and I can't see them. With Image Zoom I RMB and use the scroll wheel over a single image to make it larger or smaller. Usually I have to make it larger so I can see it. For E-mail when someone attaches some mega pixel image I can make it smaller as needed so I can see it. I love that it works in both E-mail and browser. I use this feature many times a day. Hawker ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Leonidas Jones wrote: hawker wrote: So I just got to wondering if most of us Seamonkey people are just Netscape hold ons that are not comfortable with the FireFox/Thunderbird interface for whatever reason? Anyone out there a Seamonkey user who was not a Netscape users? As for me I started on Netscape 1.x though 4.6x then skipped to Netscape 7.x (6.x never worked well for me), on to Mozilla Suite and then Seamonkey. Firefox/Thunderbird never felt comfortable to me since I knew Netscape better and so I stay here with Seamonkey. I'm asking all this because I'm currently questing why I am staying on Seamonkey. I like a few things about it over Firefox/Thunderbird but with 2.0 out and many extensions broken or no longer supporting Seamonkey - all of which still work in Firefox I'm questing why I'm so resistant to go over th Firefox. Seamonkey just isn't getting the support it did when it was still Mozilla Suite unfortunately (a fact I don't want to accept). I'm also still, on some computers, still a Eudora user even though that program, with all that is great about it, is getting almost to the point of unusable with poor current standards support. So perhaps I'm just an anachronism wishing still for the days of 110baud teletype BBSs again ;) Anyone want to wax philosophical about this? Hawker One of the great advantages of the suite approach is in the use of portable applications. Anyone who has used portable versions on Thunderbird and Firefox will have experienced the lack of interoperability. A link in TB will call up the host computer's default browser, a mailto in FF will call up the host's mail application. Portable SeaMonkey, available from portableapps.com, solves this problem. Since the suite is linked, a link in Mail/News calls the browser, and vice versa. I had to spin my own portable SM for Mac, but it works great. As portable applications become more popular, the suite approach can find a real niche. Lee Does this Portable SeaMonkey you have work on a Verizon Blackberry Curve. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Leonidas Jones wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Rufus wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Rufus wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:33:15 -0800, Rufus wrote: /snip/ /snip/ No not at all. On both Windows and Macs, tabs actually use far less memory then the corresponding number of multiple browser windows. Lee I have SM set to open new page in same window. opening in multiple windows is no better than in tabs. Tabs is basically new windows with tab stuck on it. No, you are simply wrong. Sorry to be so blunt, but its true. Have you checked this with the Activity Monitor running? Lee Yes I have. definite uptick in memory each time I tried tabs and even more when I used multiple windows. I always have set up to open new page in current window. Well, I was asking Phillip, but more eyes are better, so thanks! That is consistent with my usage. Opening multiple pages will always use more memory, but opening them in tabs is more efficient then opening them in new windows. If one is using a limited system, it would be best to avoid both tabs and multiple windows. However, on a modern machine, tabs are going to perform better then multiple windows. We have discussed our Mac museums already! ;) Lee Yes I've got to update my Mac laptop with Intel Processor. I want to get the one with 8 gigs of Ram. And My Lap top is G4-500 then I might can use those touted Tabs. when I buy either I will have to take funds out my retirement to do so. See when you on Social Security there is only so much you can do. I just never seen a use for them. Usually when I visit a site I progress from one window to the next I don't need to switch back an forth. I go to point a to b to c and so on. I don't go to a, b.c,a,d,b,c,a and so on. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Paul Hartman wrote: On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Phillip Jonespjon...@kimbanet.com wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: hawker wrote: So I just got to wondering if most of us Seamonkey people are just Netscape hold ons that are not comfortable with the FireFox/Thunderbird interface for whatever reason? Anyone out there a Seamonkey user who was not a Netscape users? As for me I started on Netscape 1.x though 4.6x then skipped to Netscape 7.x (6.x never worked well for me), on to Mozilla Suite and then Seamonkey. Firefox/Thunderbird never felt comfortable to me since I knew Netscape better and so I stay here with Seamonkey. I'm asking all this because I'm currently questing why I am staying on Seamonkey. I like a few things about it over Firefox/Thunderbird but with 2.0 out and many extensions broken or no longer supporting Seamonkey - all of which still work in Firefox I'm questing why I'm so resistant to go over th Firefox. Seamonkey just isn't getting the support it did when it was still Mozilla Suite unfortunately (a fact I don't want to accept). I'm also still, on some computers, still a Eudora user even though that program, with all that is great about it, is getting almost to the point of unusable with poor current standards support. So perhaps I'm just an anachronism wishing still for the days of 110baud teletype BBSs again ;) Anyone want to wax philosophical about this? Hawker One of the great advantages of the suite approach is in the use of portable applications. Anyone who has used portable versions on Thunderbird and Firefox will have experienced the lack of interoperability. A link in TB will call up the host computer's default browser, a mailto in FF will call up the host's mail application. Portable SeaMonkey, available from portableapps.com, solves this problem. Since the suite is linked, a link in Mail/News calls the browser, and vice versa. I had to spin my own portable SM for Mac, but it works great. As portable applications become more popular, the suite approach can find a real niche. Lee Does this Portable SeaMonkey you have work on a Verizon Blackberry Curve. No. Portable means it runs (on a computer) from removable media without needing to be installed first. OH, don't need that since I have installed on my laptop and Desktop. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
On 17/12/2009 23:33, hawker wrote: On 12/17/2009 3:44 AM, Philip Chee wrote: http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmisc.html#imagezoom Meanwhile I'll look into porting 0.4 Thank you. I didn't know that you modified 0.3.1. That makes a big difference. I now have 0.4-mod working in SeaMonkey 2.0.1 in both the Browser and in Mailnews. I'll do some QA before releasing it on my mods webpage. Phil -- Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. [ ]Being one man too many, Ensign Extra is booted off the E. * TagZilla 0.066.6 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Philip Chee wrote: Which extensions that you are personally concerned about that are broken or not longer supporting SeaMonkey? We are currently planning an outreach program targeting extension authors who used to support the old Mozilla Suite or SeaMonkey 1.x, to encourage them to resume support for the Suite. If you let us know about any specific extensions we can add those authors to our email spam^Wmarketing campaign. The ones I use that haven't yet been ported: - Duplicate Tab: 1.0.2 supports Seamonkey 2.0a2, but not 2.0.1 - Mnenhy: 0.7.6 is the most recent. Apparently, it doesn't support Thunderbird 3, either. - Customize Google: it looks like development on this one has stopped. Optimize Google appears to aspire to continue, but is currently listed as experimental. - Image Zoom: I have 0.3.1 installed on a test copy of Seamonkey 2.0.1. It installed OK, but doesn't seem to work (e.g., no presence in context menus). I'm holding off on upgrade to 2.0, and it will probably take having two of the four (perhaps any two) of these to convince me that I can live without the others. BTW, mentioning the original post, I go back to NS4 and Mozilla Suite. I stick with SeaMonkey because I like the user interface (I don't like the setup interface for Thunderbird and Firefox), I like the unified application, and particular the integration between, including the ability to email links and open links from a mail message in a new tab. Smith ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
[OT Portable apps] was (Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?)
On 12/17/2009 10:58 AM, Philip Chee wrote: On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:44:08 -0500, Phillip Jones wrote: Does this Portable SeaMonkey you have work on a Verizon Blackberry Curve. KaiRo managed to get SeaMonkey 2.0a1pre running on a Nokia N810: http://home.kairo.at/blog/2008-07/just_for_fun_seamonkey_on_the_n810 Phil Wonder if I could get it running on an ipod touch. A bank gave my wife one awhile back, so I jailbroke it just for fun basically only use it to see what I can break/do with it. I can ssh into it from my linux box, but haven't quite figured out how to install my own bits directly. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Phillip Jones wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Rufus wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Rufus wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:33:15 -0800, Rufus wrote: /snip/ /snip/ No not at all. On both Windows and Macs, tabs actually use far less memory then the corresponding number of multiple browser windows. Lee I have SM set to open new page in same window. opening in multiple windows is no better than in tabs. Tabs is basically new windows with tab stuck on it. No, you are simply wrong. Sorry to be so blunt, but its true. Have you checked this with the Activity Monitor running? Lee Yes I have. definite uptick in memory each time I tried tabs and even more when I used multiple windows. I always have set up to open new page in current window. Well, I was asking Phillip, but more eyes are better, so thanks! That is consistent with my usage. Opening multiple pages will always use more memory, but opening them in tabs is more efficient then opening them in new windows. If one is using a limited system, it would be best to avoid both tabs and multiple windows. However, on a modern machine, tabs are going to perform better then multiple windows. We have discussed our Mac museums already! ;) Lee Yes I've got to update my Mac laptop with Intel Processor. I want to get the one with 8 gigs of Ram. And My Lap top is G4-500 then I might can use those touted Tabs. when I buy either I will have to take funds out my retirement to do so. See when you on Social Security there is only so much you can do. I just never seen a use for them. Usually when I visit a site I progress from one window to the next I don't need to switch back an forth. I go to point a to b to c and so on. I don't go to a, b.c,a,d,b,c,a and so on. Phillip, I surely understand about the need to make older ahrdware last. Its one of the good things about Mac's, they are mid to high end machine that will stand the test of time. Yet the point of the discussion here is the use of tabs as opposed to the use of multiple windows. On any machine I've checked, tabs are more efficient then multiple windows. If you can break through your antipathy for tabs, you may find your older machine will behave better for you. Lee ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Phillip Jones wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: hawker wrote: So I just got to wondering if most of us Seamonkey people are just Netscape hold ons that are not comfortable with the FireFox/Thunderbird interface for whatever reason? Anyone out there a Seamonkey user who was not a Netscape users? As for me I started on Netscape 1.x though 4.6x then skipped to Netscape 7.x (6.x never worked well for me), on to Mozilla Suite and then Seamonkey. Firefox/Thunderbird never felt comfortable to me since I knew Netscape better and so I stay here with Seamonkey. I'm asking all this because I'm currently questing why I am staying on Seamonkey. I like a few things about it over Firefox/Thunderbird but with 2.0 out and many extensions broken or no longer supporting Seamonkey - all of which still work in Firefox I'm questing why I'm so resistant to go over th Firefox. Seamonkey just isn't getting the support it did when it was still Mozilla Suite unfortunately (a fact I don't want to accept). I'm also still, on some computers, still a Eudora user even though that program, with all that is great about it, is getting almost to the point of unusable with poor current standards support. So perhaps I'm just an anachronism wishing still for the days of 110baud teletype BBSs again ;) Anyone want to wax philosophical about this? Hawker One of the great advantages of the suite approach is in the use of portable applications. Anyone who has used portable versions on Thunderbird and Firefox will have experienced the lack of interoperability. A link in TB will call up the host computer's default browser, a mailto in FF will call up the host's mail application. Portable SeaMonkey, available from portableapps.com, solves this problem. Since the suite is linked, a link in Mail/News calls the browser, and vice versa. I had to spin my own portable SM for Mac, but it works great. As portable applications become more popular, the suite approach can find a real niche. Lee Does this Portable SeaMonkey you have work on a Verizon Blackberry Curve. No, portable means to be able to bring it from computer to computer, not to use on portable devices such as smart phones. I plug my flash drive into any Windows (2K and up) or Mac (Tiger and up) and have my own SeaMonkey, with Mail, bookmarks, etc. Lee ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 15:28:27 -0700, NFN Smith wrote: - Duplicate Tab: 1.0.2 supports Seamonkey 2.0a2, but not 2.0.1 Looks like it just needs to have the maxVersion that it advertises to be incremented. - Mnenhy: 0.7.6 is the most recent. Apparently, it doesn't support Thunderbird 3, either. Mynromyr is hard at work on SM2/TB3 compatibility. He says he is about 2/3 of the way through. - Customize Google: it looks like development on this one has stopped. Optimize Google appears to aspire to continue, but is currently listed as experimental. I don't know anything about these. - Image Zoom: I have 0.3.1 installed on a test copy of Seamonkey 2.0.1. It installed OK, but doesn't seem to work (e.g., no presence in context menus). I have a working port of 0.4 for SeaMonkey. Just doing some QA before announcing it. I'm holding off on upgrade to 2.0, and it will probably take having two of the four (perhaps any two) of these to convince me that I can live without the others. Phil -- Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. [ ]For More Free Disk Space Type: Format C:... * TagZilla 0.066.6 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
On 12/15/2009 9:15 PM, Martin Freitag wrote: I'm asking all this because I'm currently questing why I am staying on Seamonkey. I like a few things about it over Firefox/Thunderbird but with 2.0 out and many extensions broken or no longer supporting Seamonkey Which ones? Most popular extensions which worked in SM1 do work (some need compatibility enforcement) or have an equivalent in my opinion. There are a few, the biggest one is that Image Zoom 0.4 dropped SM support and 0.3x works on 1.1.x but not 2.x. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Rufus wrote: Yes, but the interface options/functionality between the two is different - most notably in that I can drag and drop Account/NG order in TB, and I can't in SM. And I just discovered that in TB I can open a tab for each server/subscription if I want, and those tabs don't close at shutdown and the state is remembered at the next startup - I really like that. Fun... the drag-and-drop newsgroup reordering was implemented in a project done for SeaMonkey and just happened to be functional in Thunderbird code as well. It surely works in SeaMonkey 2.0.x and has been working in SeaMonkey development versions for ages. The remembering of mail tabs is something we surely need to adopt as well, it works fine in the browser in 2.0.x, but with the load of other changes, we didn't have the time to make it working on the mail side as well in that release. Help to implement it is surely wanted! Robert Kaiser ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
hawker wrote: On 12/15/2009 9:15 PM, Martin Freitag wrote: I'm asking all this because I'm currently questing why I am staying on Seamonkey. I like a few things about it over Firefox/Thunderbird but with 2.0 out and many extensions broken or no longer supporting Seamonkey Which ones? Most popular extensions which worked in SM1 do work (some need compatibility enforcement) or have an equivalent in my opinion. There are a few, the biggest one is that Image Zoom 0.4 dropped SM support and 0.3x works on 1.1.x but not 2.x. What does that add-on do differently than the internal zoom functionality in 2.0 that also zooms images now? Robert Kaiser ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
hawker wrote: So I just got to wondering if most of us Seamonkey people are just Netscape hold ons that are not comfortable with the FireFox/Thunderbird interface for whatever reason? I started with Mosaic in 1993 [loved the dictionary/spell checker it had]; having never liked MSIE or OE, I checked everything available later and Netscape was always the best for me. It's the same with SeaMonkey. I prefer the suite, and it's never had enough bugs to drive me away. When it presents me with a problem, I come here and it's usually resolved. I can't program to help in development, but having held a job a few years coding in machine language in the dark ages, I can appreciate the difficulties the SM team faces making everything work together, and that's why it's easier for me to accept there will be bugs, and EVERYONE will not be satisfied. :) It's harder to understand the people who seem to expect a *perfect* product for zero money or effort. That's not directed at you, but at the general tone of this group for the last month, which might make the developers wonder why they continue doing this. For those of us who love it, I hope that's not the case. bj ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
hawker wrote: So I just got to wondering if most of us Seamonkey people are just Netscape hold ons that are not comfortable with the FireFox/Thunderbird interface for whatever reason? Well, our official two arguments are: 1) Good integration of browser and messaging functionality 2) More professional functionality that is reachable faster Just one (random) example for both: 1) e.g. easy selection of opening a link in an email in a new tab or new window in the browser via the context (right-click) menu. 2) e.g. the cookie manager being reachable from browser menus, and not a few levels into preferences, like in Firefox (to name just one example). Our target audience is the advanced user who often also likes good integration of mail and browser as (s)he's using both extensively. That's not to say that other groups, esp. ones that intersects with this one, don't like SeaMonkey, we seem to have a good standing with corporate users, for example, and with other users who like that they only need to install a single application to have browser and messaging functionality. Of course, there are a number of things we still can and need to improve, but with SeaMonkey 2.0, we significantly reduced the gap in functionality to Firefox and Thunderbird, and also now have a good platform to build even more improvements upon. I hope many people continue to support us on that path and possibly even help us with their contribution - be it in testing, support and documentation for other users, or even in developing add-ons and the application itself! Robert Kaiser ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
On 12/16/2009 12:05 AM, Philip Chee wrote: On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:34:11 -0500, hawker wrote: I'm asking all this because I'm currently questing why I am staying on Seamonkey. I like a few things about it over Firefox/Thunderbird but with 2.0 out and many extensions broken or no longer supporting Seamonkey - all of which still work in Firefox I'm questing why I'm so Hi! Which extensions that you are personally concerned about that are broken or not longer supporting SeaMonkey? We are currently planning an outreach program targeting extension authors who used to support the old Mozilla Suite or SeaMonkey 1.x, to encourage them to resume support for the Suite. If you let us know about any specific extensions we can add those authors to our email spam^Wmarketing campaign. Again the show stopper for me is Image Zoom. I do CAD work and have a huge monitor, so most graphics in web pages are too small. I need this plug in to function. I'm also still, on some computers, still a Eudora user even though that program, with all that is great about it, is getting almost to the point of unusable with poor current standards support. So perhaps I'm just an anachronism wishing still for the days of 110baud teletype BBSs again ;) Have you tried the latest Eudora 8 betas? No I have been keeping tabs on the project, but don't have time for Beta testing. Got work to do after all. It sounds promising but the things I like best about Eudora have not yet been implemented in Eudora 8 yet and the importers are not there yet. I have over 10 years worth of Eudora e-mail I still often reference. Hawker Phil ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 5:34 PM, hawker haw...@ashevillecommunity.org wrote: So I just got to wondering if most of us Seamonkey people are just Netscape hold ons that are not comfortable with the FireFox/Thunderbird interface for whatever reason? Anyone out there a Seamonkey user who was not a Netscape users? As for me I started on Netscape 1.x though 4.6x then skipped to Netscape 7.x (6.x never worked well for me), on to Mozilla Suite and then Seamonkey. Firefox/Thunderbird never felt comfortable to me since I knew Netscape better and so I stay here with Seamonkey. I'm asking all this because I'm currently questing why I am staying on Seamonkey. I like a few things about it over Firefox/Thunderbird but with 2.0 out and many extensions broken or no longer supporting Seamonkey - all of which still work in Firefox I'm questing why I'm so resistant to go over th Firefox. Seamonkey just isn't getting the support it did when it was still Mozilla Suite unfortunately (a fact I don't want to accept). I'm also still, on some computers, still a Eudora user even though that program, with all that is great about it, is getting almost to the point of unusable with poor current standards support. So perhaps I'm just an anachronism wishing still for the days of 110baud teletype BBSs again ;) Anyone want to wax philosophical about this? I personally use Thunderbird for mail/news and only use the browser of Seamonkey 1.1. The Multizilla extension is what keeps me, along with the fact that the UI (with modern theme) in Linux is faster than Firefox's (though the rendering engine in FF is faster), along with it being old habit (been using Seamonkey/Mozilla/Netscape since the beginning). All of my bookmarks, saved passwords etc are in Seamonkey, and I'm simply used to the way it looks and feels. So far, the faster UI + Multizilla has been enough to keep me with SM, and Firefox just does not feel right to me somehow, but now it's starting to get where some sites don't work properly, etc. For example I use Firefox for all of my banking sites, and some AJAX-heavy sites that don't work entirely properly in Seamonkey for whatever reason (Facebook, Google Sites, etc). Since Multizilla does not appear to be alive anymore the chances are I would switch to Firefox when I finally give up on SM 1.x series. So far *most* things still work fine in SM 1.x and until the day comes when I'm using it less than Firefox, or there is some killer feature to bring me to another browser, I'll probably keep using it. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Rufus wrote: hawker wrote: So I just got to wondering if most of us Seamonkey people are just Netscape hold ons that are not comfortable with the FireFox/Thunderbird interface for whatever reason? Anyone out there a Seamonkey user who was not a Netscape users? As for me I started on Netscape 1.x though 4.6x then skipped to Netscape 7.x (6.x never worked well for me), on to Mozilla Suite and then Seamonkey. Firefox/Thunderbird never felt comfortable to me since I knew Netscape better and so I stay here with Seamonkey. I'm asking all this because I'm currently questing why I am staying on Seamonkey. I like a few things about it over Firefox/Thunderbird but with 2.0 out and many extensions broken or no longer supporting Seamonkey - all of which still work in Firefox I'm questing why I'm so resistant to go over th Firefox. Seamonkey just isn't getting the support it did when it was still Mozilla Suite unfortunately (a fact I don't want to accept). I'm also still, on some computers, still a Eudora user even though that program, with all that is great about it, is getting almost to the point of unusable with poor current standards support. So perhaps I'm just an anachronism wishing still for the days of 110baud teletype BBSs again ;) Anyone want to wax philosophical about this? Hawker I stay with it mainly for it's user configurable security features, and the fact that I like it for it's integrated browser/mail/usenet suite - it's convenient. But like yourself, I'm beginning to question my loyalty to it - particularly in light of the random changes to the interface which either deny me the utility I once praised, eliminate it entirely, or confuse me as to it's current state after it's alleged upgrade. There are a number of enterprise customers I support which still hang onto NS (in place of IE) in some situations because of some of that aforementioned configurability and functionality that I have personally been trying to get to look at Seamonkey (for it's comparable certificate handling, strong 128 bit encryption, cookie management, etc.) as an update/upgrade...but I'm not really sure I should continue to do that at this point. Some of those customers are now using Firefox in place of NS, but that doesn't really get me what I desire - these customers generally use MS Outlook, and so the suite concept doesn't sell with them. The lack of status information in the dialog boxes regarding the aforementioned attributes is certainly not reassuring to such customers...and then there's those stupid tiny buttons...and that's just two starting points of departure when it comes to addressing an enterprise user base... I may start paying more attention the Firefox/Thunderbird solution myself...I've been tinkering with TB 3.0 and so far I'm far more pleased with it than I have been with SM 2.0. If Firefox offers the control I like(d) in SM, I may just switch. If it's good enough for corporations, it's probably good enough for me. I use it because I don't wish to open two, three, four applications that end up taking more than Memory than SeaMonkey alone. I have FireFox as well when I just want to go to a site for a second or two. I like the convenience of when clicking in a URL in an mailto instantly switching to that page. In Firefox clicking a mailto comes up with a about Blank page, then Thunderbird opening then going to a Blank email widow without the email address in the mailto filled in been that way since FireFox 1 and Thunderbird 1 and still that way with FireFox 3 and Current version of Thunderbird. Even does the same in PostBox. So there is something inherently wrong with the code for mailto's. Making mailto links in FF/TB less than useless. I like the ability to go to ftp sites that's in SeaMonkey. I like the way Password manager and Tools Manager are on the tools menu. Not hidden in layers the the Preference. I do like the way we had a forms manager as in SM 1.1.x and sad that it removed because they didn't have the time, energy, know-how or desire to do a port of it in the new code. (Despite all the protestations otherwise by the developers, they decided because they didn't use it there wasn't a need for it so they dumped it.) Finally my 60 year old brain ain't fast enough to do 3 or 4 things at one time. look at a web page while typing an email. I like doing one thing at a time. I end up take more time to do several things at a time because I can't concentrate half a dozen things as well as one task at a time. (I am a uni-tasker not a Multi-tasker.) Back in the days of IE/OE on Mac I hated it. And I was sad to see Mozilla go to that Model. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Mike C wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:34:11 -0500, hawker wrote: I'm asking all this because I'm currently questing why I am staying on Seamonkey. I like a few things about it over Firefox/Thunderbird but with 2.0 out and many extensions broken or no longer supporting Seamonkey - all of which still work in Firefox I'm questing why I'm so Hi! Which extensions that you are personally concerned about that are broken or not longer supporting SeaMonkey? We are currently planning an outreach program targeting extension authors who used to support the old Mozilla Suite or SeaMonkey 1.x, to encourage them to resume support for the Suite. If you let us know about any specific extensions we can add those authors to our email spam^Wmarketing campaign. I'm also still, on some computers, still a Eudora user even though that program, with all that is great about it, is getting almost to the point of unusable with poor current standards support. So perhaps I'm just an anachronism wishing still for the days of 110baud teletype BBSs again ;) Have you tried the latest Eudora 8 betas? Phil I don't think RoboForm supports SM 2 yet. http://www.roboform.com/browsers.html Mike C The SkyPilot Theme needs some minor adjustment to not conflict with quote colors. I've sent a notice to SailFish support email and to his support forum nadda from either. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
hawker wrote: On 12/15/2009 9:15 PM, Martin Freitag wrote: I'm asking all this because I'm currently questing why I am staying on Seamonkey. I like a few things about it over Firefox/Thunderbird but with 2.0 out and many extensions broken or no longer supporting Seamonkey Which ones? Most popular extensions which worked in SM1 do work (some need compatibility enforcement) or have an equivalent in my opinion. There are a few, the biggest one is that Image Zoom 0.4 dropped SM support and 0.3x works on 1.1.x but not 2.x. Yes it does. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
hawker wrote: So I just got to wondering if most of us Seamonkey people are just Netscape hold ons that are not comfortable with the FireFox/Thunderbird interface for whatever reason? snip Hawker I used NS4, then Mozilla, now Seamonkey. I stayed because I rather open one suite than several apps. I like the way everything is integrated. Also, up to 1.18, I liked the old Form Manager, with its 'Edit - fill-in form' one-click form filling, which I hope will be developed for SM2 sometime. Still, I think that it is the best browser/E-mail client combo out there, and it is what I install in my friends/family computers when they ask me to. Lou ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
Robert Kaiser wrote: hawker wrote: On 12/15/2009 9:15 PM, Martin Freitag wrote: I'm asking all this because I'm currently questing why I am staying on Seamonkey. I like a few things about it over Firefox/Thunderbird but with 2.0 out and many extensions broken or no longer supporting Seamonkey Which ones? Most popular extensions which worked in SM1 do work (some need compatibility enforcement) or have an equivalent in my opinion. There are a few, the biggest one is that Image Zoom 0.4 dropped SM support and 0.3x works on 1.1.x but not 2.x. What does that add-on do differently than the internal zoom functionality in 2.0 that also zooms images now? Robert Kaiser The zoom built zooms evey thing. Image zoom only affect images making them larger or smaller. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?
On 12/16/2009 9:11 AM PT, Lou typed: hawker wrote: So I just got to wondering if most of us Seamonkey people are just Netscape hold ons that are not comfortable with the FireFox/Thunderbird interface for whatever reason? snip Hawker I used NS4, then Mozilla, now Seamonkey. I stayed because I rather open one suite than several apps. I like the way everything is integrated. Also, up to 1.18, I liked the old Form Manager, with its 'Edit - fill-in form' one-click form filling, which I hope will be developed for SM2 sometime. Still, I think that it is the best browser/E-mail client combo out there, and it is what I install in my friends/family computers when they ask me to. I grew up online with Netscape v2 to Communicator v4. I like the suite! -- Oh, good morning, my little worker ants! That's just a figure of speech; I would NEVER compare you to insects. At least not after that sensitivity training seminar those maggots at the network forced me to attend! --Kay, Murphy Brown /\___/\ / /\ /\ \Phil./Ant @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site) | |o o| | Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net \ _ / Nuke ANT from e-mail address: phi...@earthlink.netant ( ) or ant...@zimage.com Ant is currently not listening to any songs on his home computer. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
