Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol, Recycling, Climate Change and Other Expensive Illusions - Breitbart

[Darryl McMahon]

When I was a member of the local municipal Consumer Advisory Panel on 
waste management, this was an annual battle.  The City would hire a 
consultant automaton to review the financials on recycling programs (as 
part of waste diversion).  Every year, the consultant would report the 
recycling program was losing money, so as a good business owner, the 
City should stop the program.  Every year, I and others would respond 
with 2 key points.


1) The City government is not a business, and is not supposed to 
operating as a for-profit enterprise.  It's job is to provide services 
to residents (not customers) at a reasonable cost to achieve other 
benefits (e.g., improved health due to better sanitation related to 
residential garbage collection).  Somehow, we never got presented with a 
proposal to stop collecting garbage because it did not make a profit.


2) The financial benefit from recycling programs was never about the 
money we got from selling the collected recyclables; it's about 
extending the life of the landfill site so we could avoid opening 
another one for 20-30 years.  A site which would much further away and 
more expensive than the costing for the current sites, which had been 
set up 20 to 40 years previously.


I posted this article because I saw it as so obviously going over the 
edge, and on multiple topics.  However, it represents a lot of other 
material I am seeing of late - typically on just 1 or 2 points, but 
similarly fact-free when it comes to providing support for the arguments 
made.


As for climate change, I'm really tired of seeing industry-sponsored 
spin pieces claiming it is much less expensive to do nothing than to 
make changes to slow or mitigate climate change.  I'll buy it's easier 
to do nothing than do something, but I think we're past the point where 
we can easily argue it's cheaper to keep pumping out the CO2 than not. 
In reality, the real argument is about what future we want (a habitable 
planet or not), but that's one the spinmeisters know they cannot win.


Darryl

On 10/26/2015 10:23 AM, Zeke Yewdall wrote:

Hmm.   Leaving aside the corn based biofuels issue, which I kind of
agree is a bit stupid, his arguments on recycling just don't make sense.
Several times, he mentions that the environmental benefit is not there and
implies that recycling costs more carbon than it saves... but never gives
any actual numbers to back this up -- turning back to whether the cost is
worth it several times, and then going off into avoiding emissions from
airplanes and electric cars as if that has anything to do with recycling.
He also seems to assume that all trash ends up in nice regulated landfills,
not in the ocean or on sides of roads.   And  I'm really baffled by his
hatred of reusable bags...

Z

On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Darryl McMahon 
wrote:



http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/22/ethanol-recycling-climate-change-expensive-illusions/

Ethanol, Recycling, Climate Change and Other Expensive Illusions

by John Hayward  22 Oct 2015

The Left is always trying to claim the mantle of unimpeachable scientific
authority for its causes, especially those with an academic veneer, such as
environmentalism.

It should matter a great deal if their preferred policies are effective,
and while we argue about the possibilities of a subject such as climate
change, the effectiveness of programs which have been in place for many
years should be analyzed dispassionately.

Instead, demonstrably ineffective, inefficient, and even
counter-productive policies, such as biofuels and recycling, persist
because they “seem right” or “feel good.” The growing movement to ban
plastic bags and replace them with reusable grocery bags operates under the
same nonsensical rules of engagement.

John Tierney recently wrote a lengthy analysis of recycling for the New
York Times, as a follow-up to a 20-year old piece in which he first
presented evidence that “recycling was costly and ineffectual.” The modern
recycling regime was still fairly new in 1996, so Tierney gamely waited
twenty years before assembling a larger stack of results and passing
judgment on the process. He found nothing to change his conclusions:

 Despite decades of exhortations and mandates, it’s still typically
more expensive for municipalities to recycle household waste than to send
it to a landfill. Prices for recyclable materials have plummeted because of
lower oil prices and reduced demand for them overseas. The slump has forced
some recycling companies to shut plants and cancel plans for new
technologies. The mood is so gloomy that one industry veteran tried to
cheer up her colleagues this summer with an article in a trade journal
titled, “Recycling Is Not Dead!”

 While politicians set higher and higher goals, the national rate of
recycling has stagnated in recent years. Yes, it’s popular in affluent
neighborhoods like Park Slope in Brooklyn and in cities like San Francisco,

Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol, Recycling, Climate Change and Other Expensive Illusions - Breitbart

[Zeke Yewdall]

Hmm.   Leaving aside the corn based biofuels issue, which I kind of
agree is a bit stupid, his arguments on recycling just don't make sense.
Several times, he mentions that the environmental benefit is not there and
implies that recycling costs more carbon than it saves... but never gives
any actual numbers to back this up -- turning back to whether the cost is
worth it several times, and then going off into avoiding emissions from
airplanes and electric cars as if that has anything to do with recycling.
He also seems to assume that all trash ends up in nice regulated landfills,
not in the ocean or on sides of roads.   And  I'm really baffled by his
hatred of reusable bags...

Z

On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Darryl McMahon 
wrote:

>
> http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/22/ethanol-recycling-climate-change-expensive-illusions/
>
> Ethanol, Recycling, Climate Change and Other Expensive Illusions
>
> by John Hayward  22 Oct 2015
>
> The Left is always trying to claim the mantle of unimpeachable scientific
> authority for its causes, especially those with an academic veneer, such as
> environmentalism.
>
> It should matter a great deal if their preferred policies are effective,
> and while we argue about the possibilities of a subject such as climate
> change, the effectiveness of programs which have been in place for many
> years should be analyzed dispassionately.
>
> Instead, demonstrably ineffective, inefficient, and even
> counter-productive policies, such as biofuels and recycling, persist
> because they “seem right” or “feel good.” The growing movement to ban
> plastic bags and replace them with reusable grocery bags operates under the
> same nonsensical rules of engagement.
>
> John Tierney recently wrote a lengthy analysis of recycling for the New
> York Times, as a follow-up to a 20-year old piece in which he first
> presented evidence that “recycling was costly and ineffectual.” The modern
> recycling regime was still fairly new in 1996, so Tierney gamely waited
> twenty years before assembling a larger stack of results and passing
> judgment on the process. He found nothing to change his conclusions:
>
> Despite decades of exhortations and mandates, it’s still typically
> more expensive for municipalities to recycle household waste than to send
> it to a landfill. Prices for recyclable materials have plummeted because of
> lower oil prices and reduced demand for them overseas. The slump has forced
> some recycling companies to shut plants and cancel plans for new
> technologies. The mood is so gloomy that one industry veteran tried to
> cheer up her colleagues this summer with an article in a trade journal
> titled, “Recycling Is Not Dead!”
>
> While politicians set higher and higher goals, the national rate of
> recycling has stagnated in recent years. Yes, it’s popular in affluent
> neighborhoods like Park Slope in Brooklyn and in cities like San Francisco,
> but residents of the Bronx and Houston don’t have the same fervor for
> sorting garbage in their spare time.
>
> The future for recycling looks even worse. As cities move beyond
> recycling paper and metals, and into glass, food scraps and assorted
> plastics, the costs rise sharply while the environmental benefits decline
> and sometimes vanish. “If you believe recycling is good for the planet and
> that we need to do more of it, then there’s a crisis to confront,” says
> David P. Steiner, the chief executive officer of Waste Management, the
> largest recycler of household trash in the United States. “Trying to turn
> garbage into gold costs a lot more than expected. We need to ask ourselves:
> What is the goal here?”
>
> When the CEO of the largest recycling company openly speculates that his
> expensive service isn’t actually delivering the sought-after environmental
> value, it seems like rather big news. We are always told to distrust
> arguments from interest – in other words, we’re supposed to instinctively
> distrust anything positive an oil company says about oil consumption, no
> matter how much rock-solid data the company can muster. Isn’t it noteworthy
> that a company would advance such a profound argument against interest?
>
> As Tierney goes on to demonstrate, the environmental benefit from most
> recycling is absurdly small, providing the example of an air passenger who
> would have to recycle 40,000 plastic bottles in order to offset the carbon
> emissions from a single round-trip flight from New York to London.  (There
> must be over a thousand people a day flying that particular route, which
> adds up to a lot of plastic bottles.)
>
> Also, the very act of preparing and recycling trash has a significant
> environmental impact, which is simply ignored by environmental evangelists,
> the same way they completely ignore the carbon emissions necessary to
> charge electric cars. Clearly, this curious religion believes that energy
> and emissions are sanctified based on 

Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Compatibility

[Tom]

Robert,
  Thanks for the reply. Mechanics is not my strong point.
   David Blume explains the steps required to convert engines with carburetors 
to run on ethanol (Alcohol Can Be A Gas pp364-374) but once converted the 
engine will run well on ethanol but not on gasoline.

-Original Message-
From: robert and benita rabello rabe...@shaw.ca
Sent: ‎7/‎29/‎2014 9:01 PM
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org 
sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Compatibility

On 7/29/2014 2:55 PM, Thomas Kelly wrote:
Will a phantom system and/or Megasquirt adjust on the
 fly to varying ethanol concentrations? (E0 through E100)
 No, I don't believe so. That's where the factory flex fuel system 
really shines.

  
Robert Luis Rabello
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ceremonies and Celebrations video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV3k-s_sg1Q

Meet the People video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txsCdh1hZ6c

Crisis video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZedNEXhTn4

The Long Journey video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy4muxaksgk


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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Compatibility

[Thomas Kelly]

Robert,
   I don't think you'll get much argument re: your
contention that any OBDII vehicle can run E85, the
question is for how long.
   I only waded through the study you cited, but some
points should be made:
   1. It looked at exhaust emissions from 16 vehicles
comparing low ethanol/gasoline blends blends of 10%(E10),
15%(E15) and 20%(E20) to gasoline (E0). Changes in
exhaust emissions indicated that the vehicles did make
fuel:air adjustments i.e. they learned to run on the
ethanol blends. The study did not include E85.
   2. The authors state that the study did not include an
operability component and while they point out that
there were no observed leaks in any of the vehicles,
they also state that the vehicles were only driven about
200 miles on the ethanol blends.
   3. 6 of the 16 vehicles did not make adjustments at
wide open throttle and emissions were consistently
hotter as these vehicles ran at lean blends.

   None of this is real news. Here in the US we've been
running our cars on E10 (gasohol) sine '83.
   A couple of years ago I bought a piece of lab
equipment - a '99 Ford Ranger; flex fuel version. It
loves E85. When I go from E10 to E85, you can hear the
engine settle in to it. It almost instantly adjusts to
whatever blend I feed it.
   The owner of the station that sells me the E85 told me
that when he started selling E85 he filled up the tank
of his family car. It ran a bit rough for a few miles,
but then ran fine. He wouldn't run more than a tankful
or two ... went on about seals and fuel lines. Same
message from some reliable mechanics: E10 no problem.
E85 is a different story.
   So, will newer model vehicles run on E85? Probably. We
certainly want them to run at various temps and
altitudes and for more than 200, 1000, or even 10,000
miles.

   Interesting info in the study you cited regarding small
engines running on the lower ethanol blends. Many will
not run on blends as low as E20 w/o adjustment  ex
raise fuel tank relative to engine and/or adjusting
idle settings. Even with adjustments the engines run
hot resulting in increased emissions of oxides of
nitrogen and shorter lifespans for the engines.

   I'm not opposed to ethanol. I'm especially interested
in ethanol that is produced at various levels of scale
including homebrew utilizing feedstock from the waste
stream. I look forward to the day when I can purchase
E85 made from something other than food.
Best to You,
   Tom


 I maintain that any OBDII vehicle can run E85. If your
 check engine
 light comes on, reset it and keep driving. (It's usually
 an O2 sensor
 that triggers the light.) The onboard computer WILL
adapt.
  Here's what
 the NREL had to say on the matter:

 http://www.scribd.com/doc/117331392/Effects-of-Intermediate-Ethanol-Blends

 There are no E85 pumps in British Columbia. The best we
 can do is E10,
 which is only advertised as available at Husky.


 Robert Luis Rabello
 Adventure for Your Mind
 http://www.newadventure.ca

 Ceremonies and Celebrations video:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV3k-s_sg1Q

 Meet the People video:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txsCdh1hZ6c

 Crisis video:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZedNEXhTn4

 The Long Journey video:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy4muxaksgk


 This communication may be unlawfully collected and
stored
 by the National Security Agency (NSA) in secret. The
 parties to this email do not consent to the retrieving
or
 storing of this communication and any related metadata,
as
 well as printing, copying, re-transmitting,
disseminating,
 or otherwise using it. If you believe you have received
 this communication in error, please delete it
immediately.




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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Compatibility

[Dawie Coetzee]

Another reason to replace one's OBD (should one be so cursed) with a phantom 
system ... -D




 From: Thomas Kelly ontheh...@fairpoint.net
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Tuesday, 29 July 2014, 16:30
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Compatibility
 

Robert,
   I don't think you'll get much argument re: your
contention that any OBDII vehicle can run E85, the
question is for how long.
   I only waded through the study you cited, but some
points should be made:
   1. It looked at exhaust emissions from 16 vehicles
comparing low ethanol/gasoline blends blends of 10%(E10),
15%(E15) and 20%(E20) to gasoline (E0). Changes in
exhaust emissions indicated that the vehicles did make
fuel:air adjustments i.e. they learned to run on the
ethanol blends. The study did not include E85.
   2. The authors state that the study did not include an
operability component and while they point out that
there were no observed leaks in any of the vehicles,
they also state that the vehicles were only driven about
200 miles on the ethanol blends.
   3. 6 of the 16 vehicles did not make adjustments at
wide open throttle and emissions were consistently
hotter as these vehicles ran at lean blends.

   None of this is real news. Here in the US we've been
running our cars on E10 (gasohol) sine '83.
   A couple of years ago I bought a piece of lab
equipment - a '99 Ford Ranger; flex fuel version. It
loves E85. When I go from E10 to E85, you can hear the
engine settle in to it. It almost instantly adjusts to
whatever blend I feed it.
   The owner of the station that sells me the E85 told me
that when he started selling E85 he filled up the tank
of his family car. It ran a bit rough for a few miles,
but then ran fine. He wouldn't run more than a tankful
or two ... went on about seals and fuel lines. Same
message from some reliable mechanics: E10 no problem.
E85 is a different story.
   So, will newer model vehicles run on E85? Probably. We
certainly want them to run at various temps and
altitudes and for more than 200, 1000, or even 10,000
miles.

   Interesting info in the study you cited regarding small
engines running on the lower ethanol blends. Many will
not run on blends as low as E20 w/o adjustment  ex
raise fuel tank relative to engine and/or adjusting
idle settings. Even with adjustments the engines run
hot resulting in increased emissions of oxides of
nitrogen and shorter lifespans for the engines.

   I'm not opposed to ethanol. I'm especially interested
in ethanol that is produced at various levels of scale
including homebrew utilizing feedstock from the waste
stream. I look forward to the day when I can purchase
E85 made from something other than food.
        Best to You,
               Tom


 I maintain that any OBDII vehicle can run E85. If your
 check engine
 light comes on, reset it and keep driving. (It's usually
 an O2 sensor
 that triggers the light.) The onboard computer WILL
adapt.
  Here's what
 the NREL had to say on the matter:

 http://www.scribd.com/doc/117331392/Effects-of-Intermediate-Ethanol-Blends

 There are no E85 pumps in British Columbia. The best we
 can do is E10,
 which is only advertised as available at Husky.


 Robert Luis Rabello
 Adventure for Your Mind
 http://www.newadventure.ca

 Ceremonies and Celebrations video:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV3k-s_sg1Q

 Meet the People video:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txsCdh1hZ6c

 Crisis video:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZedNEXhTn4

 The Long Journey video:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy4muxaksgk


 This communication may be unlawfully collected and
stored
 by the National Security Agency (NSA) in secret. The
 parties to this email do not consent to the retrieving
or
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as
 well as printing, copying, re-transmitting,
disseminating,
 or otherwise using it. If you believe you have received
 this communication in error, please delete it
immediately.




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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Compatibility

[robert and benita rabello]

On 7/29/2014 9:25 AM, Dawie Coetzee wrote:

Another reason to replace one's OBD (should one be so cursed) with a phantom 
system ... -D


I did, using a Megasquirt. Tuning for ethanol would be relatively 
straightforward. Now, if only distilling ethanol was legal in my 
jurisdiction . . .


 
Robert Luis Rabello

Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ceremonies and Celebrations video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV3k-s_sg1Q

Meet the People video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txsCdh1hZ6c

Crisis video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZedNEXhTn4

The Long Journey video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy4muxaksgk


This communication may be unlawfully collected and stored by the National 
Security Agency (NSA) in secret. The parties to this email do not consent to 
the retrieving or storing of this communication and any related metadata, as 
well as printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, or otherwise using 
it. If you believe you have received this communication in error, please delete 
it immediately.



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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Compatibility

[Thomas Kelly]

  Will a phantom system and/or Megasquirt adjust on the
fly to varying ethanol concentrations? (E0 through E100)


 On 7/29/2014 9:25 AM, Dawie Coetzee wrote:
 Another reason to replace one's OBD (should one be so
 cursed) with a phantom system ... -D

  I did, using a Megasquirt. Tuning for ethanol would
 be relatively
 straightforward. Now, if only distilling ethanol was legal
 in my
 jurisdiction . . .


 Robert Luis Rabello
 Adventure for Your Mind
 http://www.newadventure.ca

 Ceremonies and Celebrations video:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV3k-s_sg1Q

 Meet the People video:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txsCdh1hZ6c

 Crisis video:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZedNEXhTn4

 The Long Journey video:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy4muxaksgk


 This communication may be unlawfully collected and stored
 by the National Security Agency (NSA) in secret. The
 parties to this email do not consent to the retrieving or
 storing of this communication and any related metadata, as
 well as printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating,
 or otherwise using it. If you believe you have received
 this communication in error, please delete it immediately.



 -
 No virus found in this message.
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 Date: 07/29/14

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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Compatibility

[robert and benita rabello]

On 7/29/2014 2:55 PM, Thomas Kelly wrote:

   Will a phantom system and/or Megasquirt adjust on the
fly to varying ethanol concentrations? (E0 through E100)
No, I don't believe so. That's where the factory flex fuel system 
really shines.


 
Robert Luis Rabello

Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ceremonies and Celebrations video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV3k-s_sg1Q

Meet the People video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txsCdh1hZ6c

Crisis video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZedNEXhTn4

The Long Journey video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy4muxaksgk


This communication may be unlawfully collected and stored by the National 
Security Agency (NSA) in secret. The parties to this email do not consent to 
the retrieving or storing of this communication and any related metadata, as 
well as printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, or otherwise using 
it. If you believe you have received this communication in error, please delete 
it immediately.



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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline

[Jan Warnqvist]

Hello Keith and all. I agree with you to some extent. Gasoline is a 
non-polar mix of 100:s and 100:s of hydrocarbons. In order to be corrosive 
there has to be
a) metal ions (Lewis acids) producing a low pH and
b) water or other polar compounds in the system.
Anhydrous ethanol stays anhydrous reasonably long assuming that it is kept 
in a closed vessel, preferably with dehydration air filters.
No I have not heard if Absolut is into juridical problems. But me, I prefer 
Lithuanian Gold vodka or Wyborowa, so it does not matter.
- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline


 Hij Jan

 Thanks for your reply.

 What I was asking about is the 4% (4.37%) water in the azeotrope mix
 that won't separate from the water by distillation. When 190-proof
 ethanol is blended with gasoline, the overall proportion of water is
 even lower. Zeolite will remove the last of the water, but it's
 another processing step and you have to buy it, and how long will the
 ethanol stay absolute?

 I thought that today's engines were built to resist rust and
 corrosion. Gasoline is also corrosive.

 There's also this, in a previous message:

 Biodiesel as an anti-wear and smog additive for gasoline fuel is
 very encouraging. - Franklin Del Rosario, January 2004, Biodiesel
 in gasoline engines - scroll down the page to Biodiesel in 4-stroke
 gasoline engines
 http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#gas

 It sounds like a good ethanol additive too.

 Has Absolut Vodka been sued yet for making false advertising claims?
 :-) Since it sure isn't absolute. Is it still just as good now that
 it's French? Somebody once gave me a bottle of 100-proof Absolut,
 wonderful stuff.

 All best

 Keith


Hello all. I wish to comment that like this:
Gasoline engines are sensitive to water, too sensitive to accept anything
but a very small portion of water containing alcohol in the gasoline. Any
alcohol blend in gasoline should originate from anhydrous alcohol.The fact
that ethanol in water is corrosive does not make it better. Some of the
ethanol will drop a hydrogen atom to the water and create acid and an
ethoxide ion, both are aggressive.
The diesel engines, as a contrast, can accept up to four per cents of 
water
without even long-term problems. But then the engine in question has to be
prepared for ethanol as fuel, of course.
Best regards
Jan W
- Original Message -
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 6:59 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline


  Hi all

  Would someone who has David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas! please
  look up something for me? I can't get at my copy at the moment.

  What does Mr Blume say about blending 95% ethanol (190-proof) with
  gasoline? Miscible or not?

  Thanks!

   Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline

[Keith Addison]

Hij Jan

Thanks for your reply.

What I was asking about is the 4% (4.37%) water in the azeotrope mix 
that won't separate from the water by distillation. When 190-proof 
ethanol is blended with gasoline, the overall proportion of water is 
even lower. Zeolite will remove the last of the water, but it's 
another processing step and you have to buy it, and how long will the 
ethanol stay absolute?

I thought that today's engines were built to resist rust and 
corrosion. Gasoline is also corrosive.

There's also this, in a previous message:

Biodiesel as an anti-wear and smog additive for gasoline fuel is 
very encouraging. - Franklin Del Rosario, January 2004, Biodiesel 
in gasoline engines - scroll down the page to Biodiesel in 4-stroke 
gasoline engines
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#gas

It sounds like a good ethanol additive too.

Has Absolut Vodka been sued yet for making false advertising claims? 
:-) Since it sure isn't absolute. Is it still just as good now that 
it's French? Somebody once gave me a bottle of 100-proof Absolut, 
wonderful stuff.

All best

Keith


Hello all. I wish to comment that like this:
Gasoline engines are sensitive to water, too sensitive to accept anything
but a very small portion of water containing alcohol in the gasoline. Any
alcohol blend in gasoline should originate from anhydrous alcohol.The fact
that ethanol in water is corrosive does not make it better. Some of the
ethanol will drop a hydrogen atom to the water and create acid and an
ethoxide ion, both are aggressive.
The diesel engines, as a contrast, can accept up to four per cents of water
without even long-term problems. But then the engine in question has to be
prepared for ethanol as fuel, of course.
Best regards
Jan W
- Original Message -
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 6:59 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline


  Hi all

  Would someone who has David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas! please
  look up something for me? I can't get at my copy at the moment.

  What does Mr Blume say about blending 95% ethanol (190-proof) with
  gasoline? Miscible or not?

  Thanks!

   Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline

[Dawie Coetzee]

Hi Keith

pp356,357:

Blending
There is a myth that anything less than 200-proof alcohol will separate from 
gasoline due to the small amount of water in the alcohol. Gasoline, alcohol, 
and water are miscible (stay dissolved in one another), depending on 
temperature and on water and alcohol content. [...]
... at about 68°F, alcohol with as much as 45% water will mix with gasoline 
and not separate. At 4% water, alcohol will form a stable mix with gasoline 
down to about minus 22°F! ...

A reference is given, AC Castro, CH Koster, and EK Franleck, Flexible Ethanol 
Otto Engine Management System 942400 (Warrendale, PA: Society of Automotive 
Engineers International, 1994)

Regards

Dawie Coetzee






From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, 28 August 2011, 18:59
Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline

Hi all

Would someone who has David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas! please 
look up something for me? I can't get at my copy at the moment.

What does Mr Blume say about blending 95% ethanol (190-proof) with 
gasoline? Miscible or not?

Thanks!

Keith

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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline

[Keith Addison]

Thankyou Dawie! Perfect, problem solved. Thanks so much for taking the trouble.

All best to you

Keith


Hi Keith

pp356,357:

Blending
There is a myth that anything less than 200-proof alcohol will 
separate from gasoline due to the small amount of water in the 
alcohol. Gasoline, alcohol, and water are miscible (stay dissolved 
in one another), depending on temperature and on water and alcohol 
content. [...]
... at about 68°F, alcohol with as much as 45% water will mix with 
gasoline and not separate. At 4% water, alcohol will form a stable 
mix with gasoline down to about minus 22°F! ...

A reference is given, AC Castro, CH Koster, and EK Franleck, 
Flexible Ethanol Otto Engine Management System 942400 (Warrendale, 
PA: Society of Automotive Engineers International, 1994)

Regards

Dawie Coetzee



From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, 28 August 2011, 18:59
Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline

Hi all

Would someone who has David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas! please
look up something for me? I can't get at my copy at the moment.

What does Mr Blume say about blending 95% ethanol (190-proof) with
gasoline? Miscible or not?

Thanks!

  Keith

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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline

[Jan Warnqvist]

Hello all. I wish to comment that like this:
Gasoline engines are sensitive to water, too sensitive to accept anything 
but a very small portion of water containing alcohol in the gasoline. Any 
alcohol blend in gasoline should originate from anhydrous alcohol.The fact 
that ethanol in water is corrosive does not make it better. Some of the 
ethanol will drop a hydrogen atom to the water and create acid and an 
ethoxide ion, both are aggressive.
The diesel engines, as a contrast, can accept up to four per cents of water 
without even long-term problems. But then the engine in question has to be 
prepared for ethanol as fuel, of course.
Best regards
Jan W
- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 6:59 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline


 Hi all

 Would someone who has David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas! please
 look up something for me? I can't get at my copy at the moment.

 What does Mr Blume say about blending 95% ethanol (190-proof) with
 gasoline? Miscible or not?

 Thanks!

 Keith

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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol mini-refinery from Allard Research. Whey Ethanol

[NV Dhana]

 To, Ramirez.Glad to  to here from you. what you looking at is fancy boiler. 
you will need plenty more eqipment. You will never be able
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]to brew more than 16% ethanol in brew.
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] must filter it to use in  this system
 Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 18:33:47 +
 Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol mini-refinery from Allard Research. Whey Ethanole
 
 
 From theory to Practice. Finally I got some funds for my cheese whey to 
 ethanol project, here in Panama, Central America.
 I like this automated system,touch screen, remote management, etc.
 What do you know about it? Any info of the company.
 
 Link:
 
 http://www.allardresearch.com/systems.html
 
 RGDS
 Dimas
 
 
 
 _
 Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you.
 http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCBpubl=WLHMTAGcrea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1
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Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to on 
Facebook.
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol 85

[Keith Addison]

Hi Kurt

I live within ten miles of four different E85 pumps, for most of them
it's just right there on one of the islands with the gas pump. It's a
separate nozzle, like diesel, but it isn't attended. If I'm the one
filling the car up, I splash-mix to about an E40 blend by putting the
E85 in first, then topping off with gasoline.

I've had some good success making ethyl esters using E85, too. It's dry,
and if  you compensate for the gasoline volume it works nicely.

I'd wondered about that, but you don't get E85 here.

Letting
it sit in the sun in a black container tends to drive off most of the
residual gas vapors post-wash. With the cost of E85 per gallon
comparable to the local cost of methanol, I just use the E85.

Only E85, or do you use a proportion of methanol too, as Ken Provost suggests?
http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#ethylester

Do you use low-FFA oil?

Thanks!

Best

Keith


Once I
have the recovery still working properly, I'll put the recovered
alcohol/gasoline mix in one of the cars rather than cycling it back into
the process.

-Kurt


Chris Burck wrote:
  i suspect this has more to do with wanting to avoid any chance of
  legal action from people who try to get intoxicated with it:  you
  never told me this was poisonous, so give me 35 million dollars.
  ckearly this is lunacy.  but there's so many urban legends out there
  about punitive damage awards, corporate policies as you describe are
  no surprise.  of course, who's to say they're not just using potential
  liability as cover for limiting our choices.

  On 8/22/08, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  Hi All;

  It has been a while but I am not idle. I hope everyone is keeping well.
  I have been working on converting a 2 stroke to run on ethanol. Engine
  work is well underway. I wanted to get some ethanol to start testing
  what lubricants I can use as a substitute for the commercial 2 stroke
  lubes meant for gasoline.  I am hoping esters are the answer obvioisly.
  I don't have any anhydrous ethanol so I found out that one of the only
  two stations that sell E85 is about 1/2 hr away so I drove out with a
  jerry can, only to find that they WILL NOT SELL any E85 unless you pull
  up with a flex fuel vehicle and they will only fill the tank and no
  extra cans. The kid at the pump jerks his thumb over his shoulder and
  tells me he can only pump it if the guy in the building says so.  I walk
  up to the building with its big red banner above the door with proud
  letters that read ONTARIO ALTERNATIVE ENERGY COUNCIL  I asked the
  manager how I was supposed to get fuel to do my research and he said he
  could not help me.  I asked if it was a company policy or a law and he
  told me (wrongly) that it was the law.  I have since discovered that it
  is just the company policy but there is nowhere else to buy. I can
  produce my own anhydrous ethanol but I thought I'd save the hastle and
  give some of my dollars to help promote the alt fuel business. I guess
  the bond between car manufacturers and fuel producers is nowhere
  stronger than in the alternative fuels area eh?  I'm going to vomit
  nowplease excuse me.

   Joe


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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol 85

[Kurt Nolte]

For the most part I have been using straight E85. Single stage, base, 
sodium hydroxide since I'm still using up stock. If I have time, I'll 
try to move and do some KOH catalyzed.

All my oil is from home use or a frequently changed burger stand, 
titrates 5 every time, typically around 1-2.

Total failure tends to result if the E85 isn't fresh. If it's been 
sitting a week, I cut it approximately 50/50 with methanol and it does 
decently well, but unless I miss a batch it doesn't tend to sit.

-Kurt



Keith Addison wrote:
 Hi Kurt

   
 I live within ten miles of four different E85 pumps, for most of them
 it's just right there on one of the islands with the gas pump. It's a
 separate nozzle, like diesel, but it isn't attended. If I'm the one
 filling the car up, I splash-mix to about an E40 blend by putting the
 E85 in first, then topping off with gasoline.

 I've had some good success making ethyl esters using E85, too. It's dry,
 and if  you compensate for the gasoline volume it works nicely.
 

 I'd wondered about that, but you don't get E85 here.

   
 Letting
 it sit in the sun in a black container tends to drive off most of the
 residual gas vapors post-wash. With the cost of E85 per gallon
 comparable to the local cost of methanol, I just use the E85.
 

 Only E85, or do you use a proportion of methanol too, as Ken Provost suggests?
 http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#ethylester

 Do you use low-FFA oil?

 Thanks!

 Best

 Keith


   
 Once I
 have the recovery still working properly, I'll put the recovered
 alcohol/gasoline mix in one of the cars rather than cycling it back into
 the process.

 -Kurt


 Chris Burck wrote:
 
  i suspect this has more to do with wanting to avoid any chance of
  legal action from people who try to get intoxicated with it:  you
  never told me this was poisonous, so give me 35 million dollars.
  ckearly this is lunacy.  but there's so many urban legends out there
  about punitive damage awards, corporate policies as you describe are
  no surprise.  of course, who's to say they're not just using potential
  liability as cover for limiting our choices.

  On 8/22/08, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   
  Hi All;

  It has been a while but I am not idle. I hope everyone is keeping well.
  I have been working on converting a 2 stroke to run on ethanol. Engine
  work is well underway. I wanted to get some ethanol to start testing
  what lubricants I can use as a substitute for the commercial 2 stroke
  lubes meant for gasoline.  I am hoping esters are the answer obvioisly.
  I don't have any anhydrous ethanol so I found out that one of the only
  two stations that sell E85 is about 1/2 hr away so I drove out with a
  jerry can, only to find that they WILL NOT SELL any E85 unless you pull
  up with a flex fuel vehicle and they will only fill the tank and no
  extra cans. The kid at the pump jerks his thumb over his shoulder and
  tells me he can only pump it if the guy in the building says so.  I walk
  up to the building with its big red banner above the door with proud
  letters that read ONTARIO ALTERNATIVE ENERGY COUNCIL  I asked the
  manager how I was supposed to get fuel to do my research and he said he
  could not help me.  I asked if it was a company policy or a law and he
  told me (wrongly) that it was the law.  I have since discovered that it
  is just the company policy but there is nowhere else to buy. I can
  produce my own anhydrous ethanol but I thought I'd save the hastle and
  give some of my dollars to help promote the alt fuel business. I guess
  the bond between car manufacturers and fuel producers is nowhere
  stronger than in the alternative fuels area eh?  I'm going to vomit
  nowplease excuse me.

 
   Joe
 


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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol 85

[Kurt Nolte]

I live within ten miles of four different E85 pumps, for most of them 
it's just right there on one of the islands with the gas pump. It's a 
separate nozzle, like diesel, but it isn't attended. If I'm the one 
filling the car up, I splash-mix to about an E40 blend by putting the 
E85 in first, then topping off with gasoline.

I've had some good success making ethyl esters using E85, too. It's dry, 
and if  you compensate for the gasoline volume it works nicely. Letting 
it sit in the sun in a black container tends to drive off most of the 
residual gas vapors post-wash. With the cost of E85 per gallon 
comparable to the local cost of methanol, I just use the E85. Once I 
have the recovery still working properly, I'll put the recovered 
alcohol/gasoline mix in one of the cars rather than cycling it back into 
the process.

-Kurt


Chris Burck wrote:
 i suspect this has more to do with wanting to avoid any chance of
 legal action from people who try to get intoxicated with it:  you
 never told me this was poisonous, so give me 35 million dollars.
 ckearly this is lunacy.  but there's so many urban legends out there
 about punitive damage awards, corporate policies as you describe are
 no surprise.  of course, who's to say they're not just using potential
 liability as cover for limiting our choices.

 On 8/22/08, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
 Hi All;

 It has been a while but I am not idle. I hope everyone is keeping well.
 I have been working on converting a 2 stroke to run on ethanol. Engine
 work is well underway. I wanted to get some ethanol to start testing
 what lubricants I can use as a substitute for the commercial 2 stroke
 lubes meant for gasoline.  I am hoping esters are the answer obvioisly.
 I don't have any anhydrous ethanol so I found out that one of the only
 two stations that sell E85 is about 1/2 hr away so I drove out with a
 jerry can, only to find that they WILL NOT SELL any E85 unless you pull
 up with a flex fuel vehicle and they will only fill the tank and no
 extra cans. The kid at the pump jerks his thumb over his shoulder and
 tells me he can only pump it if the guy in the building says so.  I walk
 up to the building with its big red banner above the door with proud
 letters that read ONTARIO ALTERNATIVE ENERGY COUNCIL  I asked the
 manager how I was supposed to get fuel to do my research and he said he
 could not help me.  I asked if it was a company policy or a law and he
 told me (wrongly) that it was the law.  I have since discovered that it
 is just the company policy but there is nowhere else to buy. I can
 produce my own anhydrous ethanol but I thought I'd save the hastle and
 give some of my dollars to help promote the alt fuel business. I guess
 the bond between car manufacturers and fuel producers is nowhere
 stronger than in the alternative fuels area eh?  I'm going to vomit
 nowplease excuse me.

 Joe



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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol 85

[Chris Burck]

i suspect this has more to do with wanting to avoid any chance of
legal action from people who try to get intoxicated with it:  you
never told me this was poisonous, so give me 35 million dollars.
ckearly this is lunacy.  but there's so many urban legends out there
about punitive damage awards, corporate policies as you describe are
no surprise.  of course, who's to say they're not just using potential
liability as cover for limiting our choices.

On 8/22/08, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi All;

 It has been a while but I am not idle. I hope everyone is keeping well.
 I have been working on converting a 2 stroke to run on ethanol. Engine
 work is well underway. I wanted to get some ethanol to start testing
 what lubricants I can use as a substitute for the commercial 2 stroke
 lubes meant for gasoline.  I am hoping esters are the answer obvioisly.
 I don't have any anhydrous ethanol so I found out that one of the only
 two stations that sell E85 is about 1/2 hr away so I drove out with a
 jerry can, only to find that they WILL NOT SELL any E85 unless you pull
 up with a flex fuel vehicle and they will only fill the tank and no
 extra cans. The kid at the pump jerks his thumb over his shoulder and
 tells me he can only pump it if the guy in the building says so.  I walk
 up to the building with its big red banner above the door with proud
 letters that read ONTARIO ALTERNATIVE ENERGY COUNCIL  I asked the
 manager how I was supposed to get fuel to do my research and he said he
 could not help me.  I asked if it was a company policy or a law and he
 told me (wrongly) that it was the law.  I have since discovered that it
 is just the company policy but there is nowhere else to buy. I can
 produce my own anhydrous ethanol but I thought I'd save the hastle and
 give some of my dollars to help promote the alt fuel business. I guess
 the bond between car manufacturers and fuel producers is nowhere
 stronger than in the alternative fuels area eh?  I'm going to vomit
 nowplease excuse me.

 Joe



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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol from cellulose

[doug swanson]

Kirk McLoren wrote:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI5frPV58tYfeature=user

   fuel bit is near the end

   The termite proofing sounds great.

   Kirk
That was one to forward to several associates!  One of whom works 
diligently to keep old growth forests from being sold to logging 
companies, and another who's been battling termites..  Thanks!

-- 
Contentment comes not from having more, but from wanting less.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

All generalizations are false.  Including this one.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software.


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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers

[Keith Addison]

Hi Zeke

Well, less meat would probably be a good idea for the average 
american, but meat can be had from animals that don't eat corn. It's 
sort of two different issues, that because of our factory farming 
structure, get treated like one.  And actually, according to The 
Omivoire's Dilemma, how healthy meat is for us may be as much 
dependent on what the meat eats, as what kind it is.  For example, 
he mentions that the new corn fed factory Salmon may lack many of 
the omega 6 fatty acids that are supposed to be the great thing 
about eating fish...

Nice example, thanks. There's no shortage of examples and evidence of 
this, extending over a long period, but of course it's consistently 
blind-eyed by the pseudo-scientific pipers who value the corporate 
shilling of the Tysons and ADMs of this world rather than verity and 
the community they're supposed to be a part of.

By the way, I think it should be omega 3 fatty acids, not omega 6. 
EPA and DHA omega 3 fatty acids are found in fish, which get it from 
plankton (but not from corn). This seems to be right: We should have 
approximately equal amounts of Omega3 and Omega6 in our bodies, or at 
maximum, not much more than twice the Omega6 as Omega3. But almost 
all Americans have ten or twenty times more Omega6 than Omega3, a 
condition that leads to all sorts of degenerative disease.

Lots more about that here:

http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/skinny.html

http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/skinny2.html

Facts about Fats-
The Skinny on Fats
by Mary Enig, PhD, and Sally Fallon

The headline of this thread is wrong, Food Makers it says, but how 
much of it can really be called food?

- meat [of a sort], packaged foods and soda

- big food companies like Tyson Foods Inc., the giant chicken 
processor [sic], and ketchup maker H.J. Heinz Co. are feeling the 
pinch. Bottlers of Coca-Cola Co. and PepsiCo Inc. soft drinks are 
raising prices, partly to offset the rising price of high-fructose 
corn syrup, the dominant sweetener in sodas.

- food giant General Mills Inc. [international production, 
marketing and distribution of cereals, snacks and processed foods]

Nothing and nobody we wouldn't do better without.

Someone just accused us of being funded by ADM because our website 
alleges that ethanol fuel might be a Good Thing. I got a little 
annoyed. It ended well though, he had another look and sent me a good 
reply. Worth a read, actually:

Keith -

first, i am sorry.  my original comments to you were based on my 
assumption that you advocate ethanol for the same reasons that 
megafarms and ADM advocate ethanol: opportunity to collect 
government subsidies.

secondly, the distribution of wealth in the u.s. and elsewhere 
sickens me.  i have been in business, as a manager, for 30 years and 
have encountered greed, lying, cheating, stealing, abuse of workers, 
similar to what we read about in the paper every day.  business 
seems to be no more than an unending search for slave labor while 
the boys at the top vote to increase each others salaries.

next, having grown up in a farming community, i am dismayed by the 
near disappearance of the small farmer.  most of the ones near 
Indianapolis have been bought out by land developers, the land 
paved, and suburban ghettos built.  all this while parts of the city 
become desperate slums.  Indianapolis still dumps raw sewage into 
the river as it fights the EPA to avoid upgrading its sewer system. 
but, we do raise taxes to build sports stadiums and expand highways.

so, don't think i am your enemy.  i am a cynic ... the last refuge 
of an idealist, says someone.  i quit my job(s) several years ago, 
refusing anymore to pay taxes to fund bombing raids.  no longer am i 
a machine for some business greed head to intimidate or manipulate. 
a friend of mine says the motto of his company is:  we grind up our 
people for our customers.

how true.

We keep hearing things like this from businessmen, or ex-businessmen, 
more and more these days. A trend?

Best

Keith


Z

On 1/27/07, Terry Dyck 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

How about less meat and healthier humans.

Terry Dyck


 From: Jason Katie mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food
 Makers
 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:20:42 -0600
 
 this just means that farmers wont be able to afford feeding their animals
 CORN and be forced to graze pastures again. better meat and healthier
 animals, not too bad i guess...
 


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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers

[Mike Weaver]

Not to mention farmed salmon is often feed on fishmeal made from 
frshwater fish from the Great Lakes and they are loaded w/ PCB's.

But we are not supposed to talk about it and out government had made it 
clear the consumer does not need to know this.

Zeke Yewdall wrote:

 Well, less meat would probably be a good idea for the average 
 american, but meat can be had from animals that don't eat corn. It's 
 sort of two different issues, that because of our factory farming 
 structure, get treated like one.  And actually, according to The 
 Omivoire's Dilemma, how healthy meat is for us may be as much 
 dependent on what the meat eats, as what kind it is.  For example, he 
 mentions that the new corn fed factory Salmon may lack many of the 
 omega 6 fatty acids that are supposed to be the great thing about 
 eating fish...

 Z

 On 1/27/07, *Terry Dyck* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 How about less meat and healthier humans.

 Terry Dyck


 From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches
 Food
 Makers
 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:20:42 -0600
 
 this just means that farmers wont be able to afford feeding their
 animals
 CORN and be forced to graze pastures again. better meat and healthier
 animals, not too bad i guess...
 
 
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers

[Terry Dyck]

Hi Zeke,

Fish actually contain Omega 3 essential fatty acids not Omega 6.  Omega 6 
can be obtained by eating seeds, nuts, beans, whole grains, and extra virgin 
olive oil or by taking Evening Primrose Oil caps or Borage Oil caps.  Omega 
3 can also be obtained from Flax seed, hemp seed or walnuts.

Terry Dyck


From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food 
Makers
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:25:56 -0700

Well, less meat would probably be a good idea for the average american, but
meat can be had from animals that don't eat corn. It's sort of two 
different
issues, that because of our factory farming structure, get treated like
one.  And actually, according to The Omivoire's Dilemma, how healthy meat
is for us may be as much dependent on what the meat eats, as what kind it
is.  For example, he mentions that the new corn fed factory Salmon may lack
many of the omega 6 fatty acids that are supposed to be the great thing
about eating fish...

Z

On 1/27/07, Terry Dyck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

How about less meat and healthier humans.

Terry Dyck


 From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food
 Makers
 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:20:42 -0600
 
 this just means that farmers wont be able to afford feeding their 
animals
 CORN and be forced to graze pastures again. better meat and healthier
 animals, not too bad i guess...
 
 
 
 --
 No virus found in this outgoing message.
 Checked by AVG Free Edition.
 Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.17.8/648 - Release Date: 
1/23/2007
 11:04 AM
 
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers

[Zeke Yewdall]

Sorry, I must have confused them.   I remembered reading that whatever was
good about the fish was lacking in the ones fed corn instead of krill, but
didn't remember which one it was.

Zeke

On 1/28/07, Terry Dyck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi Zeke,

Fish actually contain Omega 3 essential fatty acids not Omega 6.  Omega 6
can be obtained by eating seeds, nuts, beans, whole grains, and extra
virgin
olive oil or by taking Evening Primrose Oil caps or Borage Oil
caps.  Omega
3 can also be obtained from Flax seed, hemp seed or walnuts.

Terry Dyck


From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food
Makers
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:25:56 -0700

Well, less meat would probably be a good idea for the average american,
but
meat can be had from animals that don't eat corn. It's sort of two
different
issues, that because of our factory farming structure, get treated like
one.  And actually, according to The Omivoire's Dilemma, how healthy
meat
is for us may be as much dependent on what the meat eats, as what kind it
is.  For example, he mentions that the new corn fed factory Salmon may
lack
many of the omega 6 fatty acids that are supposed to be the great thing
about eating fish...

Z

On 1/27/07, Terry Dyck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

How about less meat and healthier humans.

Terry Dyck


 From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food
 Makers
 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:20:42 -0600
 
 this just means that farmers wont be able to afford feeding their
animals
 CORN and be forced to graze pastures again. better meat and healthier
 animals, not too bad i guess...
 
 
 
 --
 No virus found in this outgoing message.
 Checked by AVG Free Edition.
 Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.17.8/648 - Release Date:
1/23/2007
 11:04 AM
 
 
 ___
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers

[Terry Dyck]

How about less meat and healthier humans.

Terry Dyck


From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food 
Makers
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:20:42 -0600

this just means that farmers wont be able to afford feeding their animals
CORN and be forced to graze pastures again. better meat and healthier
animals, not too bad i guess...



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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers

[Zeke Yewdall]

Well, less meat would probably be a good idea for the average american, but
meat can be had from animals that don't eat corn. It's sort of two different
issues, that because of our factory farming structure, get treated like
one.  And actually, according to The Omivoire's Dilemma, how healthy meat
is for us may be as much dependent on what the meat eats, as what kind it
is.  For example, he mentions that the new corn fed factory Salmon may lack
many of the omega 6 fatty acids that are supposed to be the great thing
about eating fish...

Z

On 1/27/07, Terry Dyck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


How about less meat and healthier humans.

Terry Dyck


From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food
Makers
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:20:42 -0600

this just means that farmers wont be able to afford feeding their animals
CORN and be forced to graze pastures again. better meat and healthier
animals, not too bad i guess...



--
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11:04 AM


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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol use has Environmental Downsides

[Zeke Yewdall]

Brazilian cane mills are also powered by leftover cane stalks that
heat caldrons to generate steam and electric energy, an extra
advantage that corn and wheat don't have.

 Uh... why not?  If you are just using the seeds of the corn (which is

stupid enough, true), what about the whole rest of the corn plant?

Z
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers

[Jason Katie]

this just means that farmers wont be able to afford feeding their animals 
CORN and be forced to graze pastures again. better meat and healthier 
animals, not too bad i guess... 



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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts

[Keith Addison]

That's cool! I mean the ethyl alcohol bit...I'm quite
keen on distilling my own fuel as well. I've started a
reflux still, but haven't gotten it finished (I don't
have any tools to braze ferrous metals - steel, to
non-ferrous metals - copper). But it's always
encouraging to read of other folks have success on any
level! It sounds like you may have some knowledge on
the subject, so I've got a question...what do you know
about converting standard ICE gas engines to run well
on ethanol (ethyl alcohol) ?

I've heard from different sources that all you have to
do is bore out your carb. main jet and idle jet...

Ethanol and your car
http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#ethanolcar

Alcohol as an Engine Fuel
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me1.html

How To Adapt Your Automobile Engine For Ethyl Alcohol Use
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me2.html

The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual_ToC.html
See:
Chapter 1 AN OVERVIEW
Chapter 2 BASIC FUEL THEORY
Chapter 3 UTILIZATION OF ALCOHOL FUELS

Convert Your Car to Alcohol
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_drane.html

Best

Keith


Best...
Luke


--- Arttu Aula [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Methyl ethyl ketone is at least the solvent of
  choice in the aviation
  industry. The general rule of thumb in those circles
  being that everything's
  more toxic than in the automotive department: leaded
  AvGas, high sulfur jet
  fuel(not to mention the additives they throw in),
  hydraulic fluid which they
  at least strongly discourage from ingesting. It does
  vaporize quickly,
  dissolves most glues and paints and all grease, much
  better than acetone.
  Considering the bother we go through to put on
  gloves and masks when dealing
  with it, i wouldn't use it as fuel.
 
  Block heaters do take a bit of electricity, but they
  do save enough fuel in
  cold weather to justify their use; 1/2h in 5 C to -5
  C, 1h down to -15 C,
  then 2h for below that. There are fuel burning ones
  too, no cord or plug
  necessary, but they are more expensive. Electrically
  heated carburetors do
  exist, they shouldn't take much power at all
  considering the small mass of a
  carburetor. Even less if you just heat the fuel in
  the float bowl directly.
  It takes 1 minute to heat 1 dl of ethanol 40C (-20
  to 20C, for example)
  using the power of your low beams (not USING your
  low beams of course, but
  the same amount of electricity). If your battery
  can't take that, get a new
  battery, you won't be able to start an engine on gas
  at -20. I'm inclined to
  think that an EFI engine would start quite well in
  freezing weather, at
  least down to the point where block heaters are
  recomended anyways. But a
  heating around the fuel lines wouldn't be impossible
  either.
 
  Winter's coming late this year, no snow on
  chirstmas! And this is Finland
  we're talking about! I'd like to try out my
  snowmobile on ethanol, but the
  large batch production's the hard part, it being
  illegal in Finland and
  all... So if the cops ask i didn't distill a test
  batch of around 3dl with a
  steam juicer with the top sections flipped around
  and the middle filled with
  glass plates. It might have burned had i done so :)
 
  Not to mention i can't use the snowmobile on any
  fuel with no snow around!


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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts

[Arttu Aula]

Still in need of practical experience. My dad threw out an old lawn mower i
was going to experiment on, but i'll find something, just need to find the
time and effort. The trimmer for one, adjustable carb and all. Changing or
drilling jets is easy, it should work that way, make fine adjustments with
plug color and piston wash. Ignition timing is what i've been pondering
about lately. Not necessary, but would get better results. If i could figure
out how to electronically delay the trigger signal for CDI i'd be set. That
would make dual fuel possible.

Cold starting is a major issue. A resistor in the float bowl is probably the
best thing, though my snowmobile has no battery, but that's a matter of
installing one. I think the electrical system would have no problem with
that, since an electric starter is an option for the sled. A fire in a soup
can and some tubing isn't out of the question either. I'll figure that out
once i have fuel.  And the suspension sorted out, damn thing keeps bottoming
out constantly...

I've got 2 pieces of steel tubing next to my garage waiting to be welded
into a column. I'd want to make a continuos feed still, it seems a bit more
flexible to use, no need to heat the whole 200l batch or whatever i'd be
working with, just do a bit at a time. If i could do it inside and
incorporate it into part of the heating system the energy for distillation
wouldn't be an issue, need it to heat the house anyways. Being a student
just coming home for weekends does put restrictions on my plans, although
most of it is just inherent laziness. Need to get over that.

Arttu
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts

[Arttu Aula]

Methyl ethyl ketone is at least the solvent of choice in the aviation
industry. The general rule of thumb in those circles being that everything's
more toxic than in the automotive department: leaded AvGas, high sulfur jet
fuel(not to mention the additives they throw in), hydraulic fluid which they
at least strongly discourage from ingesting. It does vaporize quickly,
dissolves most glues and paints and all grease, much better than acetone.
Considering the bother we go through to put on gloves and masks when dealing
with it, i wouldn't use it as fuel.

Block heaters do take a bit of electricity, but they do save enough fuel in
cold weather to justify their use; 1/2h in 5 C to -5 C, 1h down to -15 C,
then 2h for below that. There are fuel burning ones too, no cord or plug
necessary, but they are more expensive. Electrically heated carburetors do
exist, they shouldn't take much power at all considering the small mass of a
carburetor. Even less if you just heat the fuel in the float bowl directly.
It takes 1 minute to heat 1 dl of ethanol 40C (-20 to 20C, for example)
using the power of your low beams (not USING your low beams of course, but
the same amount of electricity). If your battery can't take that, get a new
battery, you won't be able to start an engine on gas at -20. I'm inclined to
think that an EFI engine would start quite well in freezing weather, at
least down to the point where block heaters are recomended anyways. But a
heating around the fuel lines wouldn't be impossible either.

Winter's coming late this year, no snow on chirstmas! And this is Finland
we're talking about! I'd like to try out my snowmobile on ethanol, but the
large batch production's the hard part, it being illegal in Finland and
all... So if the cops ask i didn't distill a test batch of around 3dl with a
steam juicer with the top sections flipped around and the middle filled with
glass plates. It might have burned had i done so :)

Not to mention i can't use the snowmobile on any fuel with no snow around!
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts

[Luke Hansen]

That's cool! I mean the ethyl alcohol bit...I'm quite
keen on distilling my own fuel as well. I've started a
reflux still, but haven't gotten it finished (I don't
have any tools to braze ferrous metals - steel, to
non-ferrous metals - copper). But it's always
encouraging to read of other folks have success on any
level! It sounds like you may have some knowledge on
the subject, so I've got a question...what do you know
about converting standard ICE gas engines to run well
on ethanol (ethyl alcohol) ?

I've heard from different sources that all you have to
do is bore out your carb. main jet and idle jet...

Best...
Luke


--- Arttu Aula [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Methyl ethyl ketone is at least the solvent of
 choice in the aviation
 industry. The general rule of thumb in those circles
 being that everything's
 more toxic than in the automotive department: leaded
 AvGas, high sulfur jet
 fuel(not to mention the additives they throw in),
 hydraulic fluid which they
 at least strongly discourage from ingesting. It does
 vaporize quickly,
 dissolves most glues and paints and all grease, much
 better than acetone.
 Considering the bother we go through to put on
 gloves and masks when dealing
 with it, i wouldn't use it as fuel.
 
 Block heaters do take a bit of electricity, but they
 do save enough fuel in
 cold weather to justify their use; 1/2h in 5 C to -5
 C, 1h down to -15 C,
 then 2h for below that. There are fuel burning ones
 too, no cord or plug
 necessary, but they are more expensive. Electrically
 heated carburetors do
 exist, they shouldn't take much power at all
 considering the small mass of a
 carburetor. Even less if you just heat the fuel in
 the float bowl directly.
 It takes 1 minute to heat 1 dl of ethanol 40C (-20
 to 20C, for example)
 using the power of your low beams (not USING your
 low beams of course, but
 the same amount of electricity). If your battery
 can't take that, get a new
 battery, you won't be able to start an engine on gas
 at -20. I'm inclined to
 think that an EFI engine would start quite well in
 freezing weather, at
 least down to the point where block heaters are
 recomended anyways. But a
 heating around the fuel lines wouldn't be impossible
 either.
 
 Winter's coming late this year, no snow on
 chirstmas! And this is Finland
 we're talking about! I'd like to try out my
 snowmobile on ethanol, but the
 large batch production's the hard part, it being
 illegal in Finland and
 all... So if the cops ask i didn't distill a test
 batch of around 3dl with a
 steam juicer with the top sections flipped around
 and the middle filled with
 glass plates. It might have burned had i done so :)
 
 Not to mention i can't use the snowmobile on any
 fuel with no snow around!
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars

[Thomas Kelly]

Jason,
 Thanks for the assurances.
 A friend sells, restores, repairs, and stores Morgans ( cars)    many 
are classics. He has noticed a relationship between leaking rubber hoses and 
use of ethanol blends as low as 10%. The newer hoses seem to hold up better. 
Another friend got a notice regarding incompatibility of ethanol blends with 
the rubber components in his snowmobile.
 I don't know for sure, but suspect that methanol is even more damaging to 
rubber parts than ethanol. It would stand to reason that newer cars (post 95?) 
and especially flex fuel cars would be better in terms of rubber 
compatibility.
   Tom

- Original Message - 
  From: Jason Katie 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 9:29 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars


  methanol degrades rubber parts,sure, but so does ethanol and BD. there will 
be plenty of warning if something starts leaking. and in most newer cars it 
wont matter anyway. if all else fails we got lotsa blue-goo (RVT silicone 
sealer)!
  Jason
  ICQ#:  154998177
  MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Kelly 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars


Jason,

   Would there be a problem with rubber components?

  A can of HEET (methanol) in the tank every once in awhile to resolve 
a water issue? Maybe. A dose of methanol to hoses and seals with every inch on 
the odometer? Not.   
  JTF Why bother 
washing?  (BD)  
If so:
 I wonder if  flex fuel cars have rubber components that resist 
methanol better than standard issue road cars.

 Being able to denature ethanol with methanol could be the answer to  
the homebrewer's dilemna  water is soluble in both.

 There are several references in the archives to using 80, 85, 90% 
ethanol (rest is water). There is an interesting discussion of water injection 
at the Online Biofuels Library (JTF) The Manual for the Home and Farm 
Production of Alcohol Fuel . There is also a chart in Convert Your Car to 
Alcohol at the Biofuels Library that is based on testing 150 - 200 proof 
alcohol. This suggests that a gas car (in this case a 1969 Dodge Dart) can be 
converted to run on 75% ethanol.  Best results were found to be with 90% 
alcohol.

 My point is that you don't need anhydrous ethanol to run a car. You 
need it if you plan to denature the alcohol with gasoline. Can we denature it 
with methanol w/o damaging the car?
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts

[Zeke Yewdall]

I don't think that adding water would be the right way to go.  I think the
problem is that ethanol has a higher vapor pressure than gasoline, and in
cold weather, it is hard to get it to vaporize into a fuel-air mixture
effectively.  Gasoline vaporizes much easier, and gets the engine going and
initiates the combustion.  But water has an even higher vapor pressure than
ethanol, plus it is not a fuel, so I don't think it would help.  Since all
of the commercially produced flex fuel vehicals that I've seen are designed
to run E85, I think they just rely on the gasoline content to start in the
winter.  What bugs me is that I can't buy any flex fuel vehicals that are
efficient -- I mean, if I want a flex fuel vehical, I have to upgrade to a
full sized pickup or a V8 sedan.   Where's the little 4 cylinder efficient
flex fuel vehical?  Guess it's not all that hard to change out carbureator
jets to change the fuel air ratio yourself to allow running ethanol.

Z

On 11/28/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Hello All,
 I've read that people using ethanol, blend in 15 - 20% gasoline to
improve cold weather starts.
What would one do if they were running on 85 - 90% ethanol : 10 -15%
water to improve cold weather starts?
 Do flex fuel cars have options for block heaters?

Thanks,
  Tom

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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts

[Zeke Yewdall]

I think I may have misread your questions.  It seems you are asking what to
do if you already have the water in there, from homebrew Ethanol?
Hm.  Perhaps a dual tank setup like we use for SVO in diesels.  A
block heater would probably help, but then you are using alot of electricity
-- and is that renewably produced?

Z

On 11/28/06, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I don't think that adding water would be the right way to go.  I think the
problem is that ethanol has a higher vapor pressure than gasoline, and in
cold weather, it is hard to get it to vaporize into a fuel-air mixture
effectively.  Gasoline vaporizes much easier, and gets the engine going and
initiates the combustion.  But water has an even higher vapor pressure than
ethanol, plus it is not a fuel, so I don't think it would help.  Since all
of the commercially produced flex fuel vehicals that I've seen are designed
to run E85, I think they just rely on the gasoline content to start in the
winter.  What bugs me is that I can't buy any flex fuel vehicals that are
efficient -- I mean, if I want a flex fuel vehical, I have to upgrade to a
full sized pickup or a V8 sedan.   Where's the little 4 cylinder efficient
flex fuel vehical?  Guess it's not all that hard to change out carbureator
jets to change the fuel air ratio yourself to allow running ethanol.

Z

On 11/28/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Hello All,
  I've read that people using ethanol, blend in 15 - 20% gasoline to
 improve cold weather starts.
 What would one do if they were running on 85 - 90% ethanol : 10 -15%
 water to improve cold weather starts?
  Do flex fuel cars have options for block heaters?

 Thanks,
   Tom

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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts

[Jason Katie]

i hear toyota and honda have 4cyls that are easily adapted to Flexing.
Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  - Original Message - 
  From: Zeke Yewdall 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 8:36 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts


  I don't think that adding water would be the right way to go.  I think the 
problem is that ethanol has a higher vapor pressure than gasoline, and in cold 
weather, it is hard to get it to vaporize into a fuel-air mixture effectively.  
Gasoline vaporizes much easier, and gets the engine going and initiates the 
combustion.  But water has an even higher vapor pressure than ethanol, plus it 
is not a fuel, so I don't think it would help.  Since all of the commercially 
produced flex fuel vehicals that I've seen are designed to run E85, I think 
they just rely on the gasoline content to start in the winter.  What bugs me is 
that I can't buy any flex fuel vehicals that are efficient -- I mean, if I want 
a flex fuel vehical, I have to upgrade to a full sized pickup or a V8 sedan.   
Where's the little 4 cylinder efficient flex fuel vehical?  Guess it's not all 
that hard to change out carbureator jets to change the fuel air ratio yourself 
to allow running ethanol. 

  Z


  On 11/28/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello All,
 I've read that people using ethanol, blend in 15 - 20% gasoline to 
improve cold weather starts. 
What would one do if they were running on 85 - 90% ethanol : 10 -15% 
water to improve cold weather starts?
 Do flex fuel cars have options for block heaters?

Thanks, 
  Tom

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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts

[bob allen]

Zeke you have vapor pressure backwards.  Lower vapor pressure means less 
volatile.  The boiling point of a liquid is defined as that temperature 
when the vapor pressure equals atmospheric pressure (760 mm Hg at sea 
level) 
Zeke Yewdall wrote:
 I don't think that adding water would be the right way to go.  I think 
 the problem is that ethanol has a higher vapor pressure

lower vapor pressure
 than gasoline, and in cold weather, it is hard to get it to vaporize 
 into a fuel-air mixture effectively.  Gasoline vaporizes much easier, 
 and gets the engine going and initiates the combustion.  But water has 
 an even higher vapor pressure
lower
 than ethanol, plus it is not a fuel, so I don't think it would help.  
 Since all of the commercially produced flex fuel vehicals that I've 
 seen are designed to run E85, I think they just rely on the gasoline 
 content to start in the winter.

the only way to improve cold starts on a vehicle running on ethanol 
water would be to add a something more volatile (higher vapor pressure) 
which is miscible with the more polar ethanol water mix.  The problem 
here is that  vapor pressure and  water solubility tend to be inversely 
proportional.  One guess would be acetone,or possibly methyl ethyl 
ketone.  both should be miscible in ethanol/water but more volatile than 
either.

 What bugs me is that I can't buy any flex fuel vehicals that are 
 efficient -- I mean, if I want a flex fuel vehical, I have to upgrade 
 to a full sized pickup or a V8 sedan.   Where's the little 4 cylinder 
 efficient flex fuel vehical?  Guess it's not all that hard to change 
 out carbureator jets to change the fuel air ratio yourself to allow 
 running ethanol.


what's a carburetor?  :-

 Z

 On 11/28/06, *Thomas Kelly* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hello All,
  I've read that people using ethanol, blend in 15 - 20%
 gasoline to improve cold weather starts.
 What would one do if they were running on 85 - 90% ethanol
 : 10 -15% water to improve cold weather starts?
  Do flex fuel cars have options for block heaters?
  
 Thanks,
   Tom

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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts

[Thomas Kelly]

 There you go Zeke  
  A second tank.

 It also answered my next question.
 What do you do when you are running on homebrew that is not anhydrous 
simply because you can't achieve 99+%, and you are low on fuel? ex Traveling 
and have to fill up with store-bought fuel;  E-85 or even gasoline.
Answer: Fill the second tank, flip a switch and off you go.

   Thanks Zeke, 
   Tom
  - Original Message - 
  From: Zeke Yewdall 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 9:39 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts


  I think I may have misread your questions.  It seems you are asking what to 
do if you already have the water in there, from homebrew Ethanol?
Hm.  Perhaps a dual tank setup like we use for SVO in diesels.  A block 
heater would probably help, but then you are using alot of electricity -- and 
is that renewably produced? 

  Z


  On 11/28/06, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I don't think that adding water would be the right way to go.  I think the 
problem is that ethanol has a higher vapor pressure than gasoline, and in cold 
weather, it is hard to get it to vaporize into a fuel-air mixture effectively.  
Gasoline vaporizes much easier, and gets the engine going and initiates the 
combustion.  But water has an even higher vapor pressure than ethanol, plus it 
is not a fuel, so I don't think it would help.  Since all of the commercially 
produced flex fuel vehicals that I've seen are designed to run E85, I think 
they just rely on the gasoline content to start in the winter.  What bugs me is 
that I can't buy any flex fuel vehicals that are efficient -- I mean, if I want 
a flex fuel vehical, I have to upgrade to a full sized pickup or a V8 sedan.   
Where's the little 4 cylinder efficient flex fuel vehical?  Guess it's not all 
that hard to change out carbureator jets to change the fuel air ratio yourself 
to allow running ethanol. 

Z


On 11/28/06, Thomas Kelly  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hello All,
   I've read that people using ethanol, blend in 15 - 20% gasoline to 
improve cold weather starts. 
  What would one do if they were running on 85 - 90% ethanol : 10 -15% 
water to improve cold weather starts?
   Do flex fuel cars have options for block heaters?

  Thanks, 
Tom

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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts

[Thomas Kelly]

Hi Bob.

 You mentioned methy ethyl ketone (MEK) as a possible cold start 
additive to an ethanol/water mix.
 I was hoping that methyl butyl ketone might be used instead. It is on 
the list of substances that can be used to denature ethanol.

- It is much less soluble in water than MEK (14g/L  vs 290g/L) -
Higher vapor pressure??? (vapor pressure is inversely proportional to 
solubility)
- It's boiling point is higher than MET  lower vapor pressure?
(The boiling point of a liquid is defined as that temperature when the 
vapor pressure equals atmospheric pressure.)

 Help me Bob, I'm confused.

  Is methyl butyl ketone a good candidate for denaturing ethanol w. 
water in it and, can the mix then be used as engine fuel?
ORIs it more likely to be used to denature anhydrous ethanol that is 
intended to be used as a solvent?
  Tom
- Original Message - 
From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts


 Zeke you have vapor pressure backwards.  Lower vapor pressure means less
 volatile.  The boiling point of a liquid is defined as that temperature
 when the vapor pressure equals atmospheric pressure (760 mm Hg at sea
 level)
 Zeke Yewdall wrote:
 I don't think that adding water would be the right way to go.  I think
 the problem is that ethanol has a higher vapor pressure

 lower vapor pressure
 than gasoline, and in cold weather, it is hard to get it to vaporize
 into a fuel-air mixture effectively.  Gasoline vaporizes much easier,
 and gets the engine going and initiates the combustion.  But water has
 an even higher vapor pressure
 lower
 than ethanol, plus it is not a fuel, so I don't think it would help.
 Since all of the commercially produced flex fuel vehicals that I've
 seen are designed to run E85, I think they just rely on the gasoline
 content to start in the winter.

 the only way to improve cold starts on a vehicle running on ethanol
 water would be to add a something more volatile (higher vapor pressure)
 which is miscible with the more polar ethanol water mix.  The problem
 here is that  vapor pressure and  water solubility tend to be inversely
 proportional.  One guess would be acetone,or possibly methyl ethyl
 ketone.  both should be miscible in ethanol/water but more volatile than
 either.

 What bugs me is that I can't buy any flex fuel vehicals that are
 efficient -- I mean, if I want a flex fuel vehical, I have to upgrade
 to a full sized pickup or a V8 sedan.   Where's the little 4 cylinder
 efficient flex fuel vehical?  Guess it's not all that hard to change
 out carbureator jets to change the fuel air ratio yourself to allow
 running ethanol.


 what's a carburetor?  :-

 Z

 On 11/28/06, *Thomas Kelly* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hello All,
  I've read that people using ethanol, blend in 15 - 20%
 gasoline to improve cold weather starts.
 What would one do if they were running on 85 - 90% ethanol
 : 10 -15% water to improve cold weather starts?
  Do flex fuel cars have options for block heaters?

 Thanks,
   Tom

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 --
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 rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have
 rejected yours.   -Author unknown


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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts

[Zeke Yewdall]

Oops.  You are right.  But my reasoning was right, if you reverse what i
said about vapor pressure.

Hmmm, methyl ethyle ketone as I recall that stuff is pretty hazardous,
but perhaps no more so than unleaded gasoline.

Z

On 11/28/06, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Zeke you have vapor pressure backwards.  Lower vapor pressure means less
volatile.  The boiling point of a liquid is defined as that temperature
when the vapor pressure equals atmospheric pressure (760 mm Hg at sea
level)
Zeke Yewdall wrote:
 I don't think that adding water would be the right way to go.  I think
 the problem is that ethanol has a higher vapor pressure

lower vapor pressure
 than gasoline, and in cold weather, it is hard to get it to vaporize
 into a fuel-air mixture effectively.  Gasoline vaporizes much easier,
 and gets the engine going and initiates the combustion.  But water has
 an even higher vapor pressure
lower
 than ethanol, plus it is not a fuel, so I don't think it would help.
 Since all of the commercially produced flex fuel vehicals that I've
 seen are designed to run E85, I think they just rely on the gasoline
 content to start in the winter.

the only way to improve cold starts on a vehicle running on ethanol
water would be to add a something more volatile (higher vapor pressure)
which is miscible with the more polar ethanol water mix.  The problem
here is that  vapor pressure and  water solubility tend to be inversely
proportional.  One guess would be acetone,or possibly methyl ethyl
ketone.  both should be miscible in ethanol/water but more volatile than
either.

 What bugs me is that I can't buy any flex fuel vehicals that are
 efficient -- I mean, if I want a flex fuel vehical, I have to upgrade
 to a full sized pickup or a V8 sedan.   Where's the little 4 cylinder
 efficient flex fuel vehical?  Guess it's not all that hard to change
 out carbureator jets to change the fuel air ratio yourself to allow
 running ethanol.


what's a carburetor?  :-

 Z

 On 11/28/06, *Thomas Kelly* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hello All,
  I've read that people using ethanol, blend in 15 - 20%
 gasoline to improve cold weather starts.
 What would one do if they were running on 85 - 90% ethanol
 : 10 -15% water to improve cold weather starts?
  Do flex fuel cars have options for block heaters?

 Thanks,
   Tom

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--


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--
Actually we are all atheists.  When you understand why you have
rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have
rejected yours.   -Author unknown


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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts

[Jason Katie]

they keep barrels of it in the blastproof paint bunker in the harley factory up 
by the airport. i dont know how reactive it is, but apparently it burns REALLY 
fast.
Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  - Original Message - 
  From: Zeke Yewdall 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 10:55 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts


  Oops.  You are right.  But my reasoning was right, if you reverse what i said 
about vapor pressure.

  Hmmm, methyl ethyle ketone as I recall that stuff is pretty hazardous, 
but perhaps no more so than unleaded gasoline. 

  Z


  On 11/28/06, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Zeke you have vapor pressure backwards.  Lower vapor pressure means less
volatile.  The boiling point of a liquid is defined as that temperature
when the vapor pressure equals atmospheric pressure (760 mm Hg at sea
level)
Zeke Yewdall wrote:
 I don't think that adding water would be the right way to go.  I think
 the problem is that ethanol has a higher vapor pressure

lower vapor pressure
 than gasoline, and in cold weather, it is hard to get it to vaporize 
 into a fuel-air mixture effectively.  Gasoline vaporizes much easier,
 and gets the engine going and initiates the combustion.  But water has
 an even higher vapor pressure
lower
 than ethanol, plus it is not a fuel, so I don't think it would help. 
 Since all of the commercially produced flex fuel vehicals that I've
 seen are designed to run E85, I think they just rely on the gasoline
 content to start in the winter.

the only way to improve cold starts on a vehicle running on ethanol 
water would be to add a something more volatile (higher vapor pressure)
which is miscible with the more polar ethanol water mix.  The problem
here is that  vapor pressure and  water solubility tend to be inversely 
proportional.  One guess would be acetone,or possibly methyl ethyl
ketone.  both should be miscible in ethanol/water but more volatile than
either.

 What bugs me is that I can't buy any flex fuel vehicals that are 
 efficient -- I mean, if I want a flex fuel vehical, I have to upgrade
 to a full sized pickup or a V8 sedan.   Where's the little 4 cylinder
 efficient flex fuel vehical?  Guess it's not all that hard to change 
 out carbureator jets to change the fuel air ratio yourself to allow
 running ethanol.


what's a carburetor?  :-

 Z

 On 11/28/06, *Thomas Kelly*  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hello All,
  I've read that people using ethanol, blend in 15 - 20% 
 gasoline to improve cold weather starts.
 What would one do if they were running on 85 - 90% ethanol
 : 10 -15% water to improve cold weather starts?
  Do flex fuel cars have options for block heaters? 

 Thanks,
   Tom

 ___
 Biofuel mailing list
 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 
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 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
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 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
 messages):
 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ 




 

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 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):
 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/




--


Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob
--
Actually we are all atheists.  When you understand why you have 
rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have
rejected yours.   -Author unknown


___
Biofuel mailing list
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars

[JAMES PHELPS]

Just to add some food for thought here on this subject.

If you build the engine for the fuel type you will get top performance. this 
performance may even exceed the performance of a  similar engine designed to 
run on unleaded.  Where all the problems come from is trying to run anengine 
designed for one fuel on another.  In exalmple if I wanted to get top 
performance out of propane fuel I would start with a 9-10 : 1 compression 
ratio would create an engine withas good or better performance to one 
designed at 7-8:1 designed for unleaded regular gasoline.

Jim


From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:51:09 -0500

Hi Zeke,

  You wrote:  I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol 
denatured with either biodiesel or methanol.

  Two questions:
1. I have heard/read from what I consider to be reliable sources that gas 
cars can be converted to run fine on 80 - 85% ethanol (15 - 20% water).
 True or False???

  If this is the case, the fly in the ointment for a homebrewer (US) is 
that the mix has to be denatured  .  unleaded gasoline is not a good 
choice because of the water concentration. To denature with gasoline water 
conc must be only 1 or  2% .   that's the tough part.

2. If methanol is a suitable denaturant, at what level (%) does methanol 
become a problem for engine parts?

   I appreciate your thoughts on this.
 Tom



   - Original Message -
   From: Zeke Yewdall
   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
   Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 10:56 AM
   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)





   On 11/26/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Jim,

  Add BD to denature   .   great idea.   Still perfectly 
suitable for making ethyl esters.
  It wasn't on the list of possibilities, but there is an option to 
apply for different denaturants.

  The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for 
drinking.
 Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking?

   I thought that biodiesel was non-toxic -- enough so that you could drink 
  a 2% solution?   It you're going to drink 98% ethanol, are you going to 
be concerned about a little biodiesel in there?


   I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol denatured with either 
biodiesel or methanol.

   Z

  If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol?  ..  cut back 
98+% on methanol use.

  Uh-oh  Now YOU have me thinking   .   dangerous   am 
using a table saw again today.
  Would 80 - 85% ethanol, denatured with methanol (2%?) be suitable 
for gas cars?

  Tom
   - Original Message -
   From: JAMES PHELPS
   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
   Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:16 PM
   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)


   Joe and Tom,
   Yes they won't sell anhydrous Ethanol e-100 without adding gasoline 
or . perhaps Biodiesel if the customer asks for it that 
way, Hmm now if I can just get my friend at the Ethanol plant to use 
Biodiesel to denture it instead of gas. H

   Jim
 - Original Message -
 From: Thomas Kelly
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:42 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)


 Hi Joe,
  I didn't follow you when you wrote:
 I am really curious about the castor oil trick.  I wonder how to 
do it?  I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and 
I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom.  If there was a high 
percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something 
like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off 
the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below.  I 
haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl 
eventually as well.

  I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in 
castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed 
to distill the alcohol from the castor oil.

 This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil 
(or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to 
distill the alcohol out.

  What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a 
selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil 
floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to 
select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the 
top layer (vapor).
 Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the 
castor 

Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars

[Jason Katie]

most gasoline powered cars run at 8+ any more, so a true flex fuel vehicle 
(similar to the aforementioned 2 1/2 ton hauler) could be made from existing 
parts, its just the fuel feed adjustments that would give you problems. a 
computer would have to be built and programmed with multiple feedback 
functions to accomodate any mixture of the usable fuels.
Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars


 Just to add some food for thought here on this subject.

 If you build the engine for the fuel type you will get top performance. 
 this
 performance may even exceed the performance of a  similar engine designed 
 to
 run on unleaded.  Where all the problems come from is trying to run 
 anengine
 designed for one fuel on another.  In exalmple if I wanted to get top
 performance out of propane fuel I would start with a 9-10 : 1 compression
 ratio would create an engine withas good or better performance to one
 designed at 7-8:1 designed for unleaded regular gasoline.

 Jim


From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:51:09 -0500

Hi Zeke,

  You wrote:  I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol
denatured with either biodiesel or methanol.

  Two questions:
1. I have heard/read from what I consider to be reliable sources that gas
cars can be converted to run fine on 80 - 85% ethanol (15 - 20% water).
 True or False???

  If this is the case, the fly in the ointment for a homebrewer (US) 
 is
that the mix has to be denatured  .  unleaded gasoline is not a good
choice because of the water concentration. To denature with gasoline water
conc must be only 1 or  2% .   that's the tough part.

2. If methanol is a suitable denaturant, at what level (%) does methanol
become a problem for engine parts?

   I appreciate your thoughts on this.
 Tom



   - Original Message -
   From: Zeke Yewdall
   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
   Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 10:56 AM
   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)





   On 11/26/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Jim,

  Add BD to denature   .   great idea.   Still perfectly
suitable for making ethyl esters.
  It wasn't on the list of possibilities, but there is an option 
 to
apply for different denaturants.

  The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for
drinking.
 Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking?

   I thought that biodiesel was non-toxic -- enough so that you could 
 drink
  a 2% solution?   It you're going to drink 98% ethanol, are you going to
be concerned about a little biodiesel in there?


   I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol denatured with either
biodiesel or methanol.

   Z

  If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol?  ..  cut 
 back
98+% on methanol use.

  Uh-oh  Now YOU have me thinking   .   dangerous   am
using a table saw again today.
  Would 80 - 85% ethanol, denatured with methanol (2%?) be 
 suitable
for gas cars?

  Tom
   - Original Message -
   From: JAMES PHELPS
   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
   Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:16 PM
   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)


   Joe and Tom,
   Yes they won't sell anhydrous Ethanol e-100 without adding gasoline
or . perhaps Biodiesel if the customer asks for it that
way, Hmm now if I can just get my friend at the Ethanol plant to use
Biodiesel to denture it instead of gas. H

   Jim
 - Original Message -
 From: Thomas Kelly
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:42 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)


 Hi Joe,
  I didn't follow you when you wrote:
 I am really curious about the castor oil trick.  I wonder how to
do it?  I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and
I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom.  If there was a high
percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something
like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol 
off
the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. 
I
haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl
eventually as well.

  I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in
castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed
to distill the alcohol from

Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol

[bob allen]

actually, my name is bob (see signature below)

Derick Giorchino wrote:
 Thanks for the response Keith. 
 This is very good info for me. I do not wish to spend a lot of time trying
 to do something that is close to imposable or just impractical.
 When I could be out collecting U.V.O. or making bio d.
 Would you have any idea what Doug is speeking of earlier in this post? 
 He makes it sound like ethanol is easily done.


from sugar yes it is easy- I do it almost daily in my hummingbird feeder.

But ethanol from cellulose is very difficult.





  I maybe reading into this
 though. Derick.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of bob allen
 Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 3:20 PM
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol
 
 Derick, you are talking about cellolosic ethanol, that is ethanol made
 from cellulose, rather than 
 from starch.  This is the holy grail of ethanol production. Very small
 amounts of ethanol can be 
 made from sulfuric acid digestion of cellulose, but the yield is abysmal and
 the cost high.  My 
 position is it is not worth the time, trouble, and expense.  the problems
 are manifold.  First is 
 the fact that the lignin present, which binds the cellulose, is not easily
 separable from the 
 cellulose,and hydrolysis of cellulose to free the sugars is much more
 difficult that that of starch, 
 and finally the sugars released from cellulose fermentation are not easily
 fermentable with yeast.
 Big bucks have been spent trying to solve these problems since at least the
 70's with little or no 
 success.  Simply, if it were easy, it would be happening everywhere, as the
 feedstock- cellulosic 
 wastes-are abundant.
 
 
 Derick Giorchino wrote:
 No Keith am not confused. I do make biodiesel. I use methanol and until
 some
 one has a better way that's what I will use. I was asking about the
 production of ethanol to use in other family vehicles. 
 Since they are gas engines. I read on J.T.F. way back when I was starting
 the venture of bio. That ethanol can be made at home using wood chips
 /paper
 and I think there may have been also a mention of dry grass and brush and
 breaking it down with sulfuric acid. But I would need to go back and read
 it
 over. My quarry was as to the amount of yield verses raw product used per
 liter /gal or what ever.
 Thanks Derick.  

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
 Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 6:40 AM
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol

 What are you people talking about?

 have you ever made any type of biofuel?
 Seems to me that you are confusing them all.
 Acid Base process and ethanol fuel?
 Methanol vs ethanol? It has sense in biodiesel production, but you are
 talking
 alcohol fuel for petroleum engines.
 Doug is being a bit confusing. He was talking about both ethanol fuel 
 in gasoline engines and using ethanol to make biodiesel. Gasoline 
 engines will run on 80% ethanol and 20% water (ie 160 proof) but to 
 make ethyl esters biodiesel the ethanol must be dry, and Doug doesn't 
 know how to make dry ethanol (absolute), he can't do better than 85% 
 ( you should be able to get 95% by distillation). So Doug's question 
 about ethanol vs methanol for making biodiesel doesn't make much 
 sense to me either. I don't think Doug has made biodiesel, or he 
 wouldn't ask anyway - ethanol biodiesel is difficult to make, not for 
 novices, not even when the ethanol is dry, methanol biodiesel is the 
 way to start. I don't think we know of any novices who've succeeded 
 with ethyl esters biodiesel. I don't know how Doug was planning to 
 make methanol, there's no small-scale backyard way of producing 
 methanol. He seems to think you can make it by treating sawdust with 
 concentrated acid, but that makes ethanol, not methanol. I also don't 
 understand the reference to the acid-base process for producing 
 ethanol, the acid-base process at JtF produces biodiesel, not 
 ethanol. Oh well.

 Has nobody yet discovered whether the castor oil method for producing 
 absolute ethanol works or not? I've been after a source of 20 litres 
 of castor oil here in Japan but I haven't found it yet. The method is 
 here:

 Separating Ethanol From Water Via Differential Miscibility -- using castor
 oil
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html#castoil

 Best

 Keith

 Does not make too much sense.
 Andrew


 - Original Message -
 From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Derick Giorchino
 To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 1:01 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol

 Hi Doug I am interested in the ethanol production you are using. 
 What is it can you point me in the right direction? Is it the acid 
 base as is explained at J.T.F.? As for the carb problems maybe

Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol

[Derick Giorchino]

Sorry Bob my head is up ... in the clouds.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of bob allen
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 5:41 AM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol

actually, my name is bob (see signature below)

Derick Giorchino wrote:
 Thanks for the response Keith. 
 This is very good info for me. I do not wish to spend a lot of time trying
 to do something that is close to imposable or just impractical.
 When I could be out collecting U.V.O. or making bio d.
 Would you have any idea what Doug is speeking of earlier in this post? 
 He makes it sound like ethanol is easily done.


from sugar yes it is easy- I do it almost daily in my hummingbird feeder.

But ethanol from cellulose is very difficult.





  I maybe reading into this
 though. Derick.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of bob allen
 Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 3:20 PM
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol
 
 Derick, you are talking about cellolosic ethanol, that is ethanol made
 from cellulose, rather than 
 from starch.  This is the holy grail of ethanol production. Very small
 amounts of ethanol can be 
 made from sulfuric acid digestion of cellulose, but the yield is abysmal
and
 the cost high.  My 
 position is it is not worth the time, trouble, and expense.  the problems
 are manifold.  First is 
 the fact that the lignin present, which binds the cellulose, is not easily
 separable from the 
 cellulose,and hydrolysis of cellulose to free the sugars is much more
 difficult that that of starch, 
 and finally the sugars released from cellulose fermentation are not easily
 fermentable with yeast.
 Big bucks have been spent trying to solve these problems since at least
the
 70's with little or no 
 success.  Simply, if it were easy, it would be happening everywhere, as
the
 feedstock- cellulosic 
 wastes-are abundant.
 
 
 Derick Giorchino wrote:
 No Keith am not confused. I do make biodiesel. I use methanol and until
 some
 one has a better way that's what I will use. I was asking about the
 production of ethanol to use in other family vehicles. 
 Since they are gas engines. I read on J.T.F. way back when I was starting
 the venture of bio. That ethanol can be made at home using wood chips
 /paper
 and I think there may have been also a mention of dry grass and brush and
 breaking it down with sulfuric acid. But I would need to go back and read
 it
 over. My quarry was as to the amount of yield verses raw product used per
 liter /gal or what ever.
 Thanks Derick.  

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
 Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 6:40 AM
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol

 What are you people talking about?

 have you ever made any type of biofuel?
 Seems to me that you are confusing them all.
 Acid Base process and ethanol fuel?
 Methanol vs ethanol? It has sense in biodiesel production, but you are
 talking
 alcohol fuel for petroleum engines.
 Doug is being a bit confusing. He was talking about both ethanol fuel 
 in gasoline engines and using ethanol to make biodiesel. Gasoline 
 engines will run on 80% ethanol and 20% water (ie 160 proof) but to 
 make ethyl esters biodiesel the ethanol must be dry, and Doug doesn't 
 know how to make dry ethanol (absolute), he can't do better than 85% 
 ( you should be able to get 95% by distillation). So Doug's question 
 about ethanol vs methanol for making biodiesel doesn't make much 
 sense to me either. I don't think Doug has made biodiesel, or he 
 wouldn't ask anyway - ethanol biodiesel is difficult to make, not for 
 novices, not even when the ethanol is dry, methanol biodiesel is the 
 way to start. I don't think we know of any novices who've succeeded 
 with ethyl esters biodiesel. I don't know how Doug was planning to 
 make methanol, there's no small-scale backyard way of producing 
 methanol. He seems to think you can make it by treating sawdust with 
 concentrated acid, but that makes ethanol, not methanol. I also don't 
 understand the reference to the acid-base process for producing 
 ethanol, the acid-base process at JtF produces biodiesel, not 
 ethanol. Oh well.

 Has nobody yet discovered whether the castor oil method for producing 
 absolute ethanol works or not? I've been after a source of 20 litres 
 of castor oil here in Japan but I haven't found it yet. The method is 
 here:

 Separating Ethanol From Water Via Differential Miscibility -- using
castor
 oil
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html#castoil

 Best

 Keith

 Does not make too much sense.
 Andrew


 - Original Message -
 From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Derick Giorchino
 To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Tuesday

Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol

[Tonomár András]

What are you people talking about?

have you ever made any type of biofuel? 

Seems to me that you are confusing them 
all.
Acid Base process and ethanol fuel?
Methanol vs ethanol? It has sense in biodiesel 
production, but you are talking 
alcohol fuel for petroleum engines. 

Does not make too much sense.
Andrew


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Derick Giorchino 
  
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 1:01 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's 
  Methanol
  
  
  Hi Doug I am 
  interested in the ethanol production you are using. What is it can you point 
  me in the right direction? Is it the acid base as is explained at J.T.F.? As 
  for the carb problems maybe a marine carb is more tolerant of the alcohol fuel 
  if not there are places that could chrome or anodize the carb bowls for a 
  price you would need to re thread all the holes. Or maybe powder coating would 
  work.
  Good luck 
  Derick
  
  
  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of lres1Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 12:03 
  AMTo: 
  Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's 
  Methanol
  
  
  Would like to know the advantages 
  if any of using Methanol instead of Ethanol in making bio-diesel. It is very 
  easy to make Ethanol with down to 15% water. Seems kinda silly to make Ethanol 
  and Methanol if Ethanol will do all.
  
  
  
  Have now got a MPEFI Jeep running 
  on 80% Ethanol and 20% water as a straight injection. Have a few bugs to work 
  out but total conversion cost is less than 
  US$20.00.
  
  To convert back to RUG is a flick 
  of a switch on the dash.
  
  
  
  This makes more sense now to use 
  the Ethanol instead of making Methanol for bio-diesel production as I already 
  make the ethanol and it can replace RUG in a MPEFI engine or standard carb 
  engine. I still have no replies on how to lacquer or coat an alloy carburetor 
  to stop reactions with the Ethanol. At present The system is fully drained and 
  blown with compressed air to clear out all water and Ethanol. Would be kinda 
  nice to be able to shut the engines off and just walk away and not have the 
  cleaning time. 
  
  
  
  I do not want to get rid of the 
  water in my Ethanol replacement for RUG as it gives much more power than RUG 
  at 80 to 85% Ethanol and 15 to 20% water mix. The plasticized fuel tanks and 
  lines can handle it all the carbs can not.
  
  
  
  My next step is to try and run 502 
  C.I.V8 engines and 351 modified engines and 350 C.I. engineswith 4 
  barrel hollies on Ethanol but need to clear up the carb reaction problems with 
  the alloys involved.
  
  
  
  Would like to know how to get to 
  0.5% water for bio-diesel processing. Same question as JJJN I 
  guess
  
  
  
  Doug 
  
  
  

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  listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel 
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  Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the 
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  messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol

[Keith Addison]

What are you people talking about?

have you ever made any type of biofuel?
Seems to me that you are confusing them all.
Acid Base process and ethanol fuel?
Methanol vs ethanol? It has sense in biodiesel production, but you are talking
alcohol fuel for petroleum engines.

Doug is being a bit confusing. He was talking about both ethanol fuel 
in gasoline engines and using ethanol to make biodiesel. Gasoline 
engines will run on 80% ethanol and 20% water (ie 160 proof) but to 
make ethyl esters biodiesel the ethanol must be dry, and Doug doesn't 
know how to make dry ethanol (absolute), he can't do better than 85% 
( you should be able to get 95% by distillation). So Doug's question 
about ethanol vs methanol for making biodiesel doesn't make much 
sense to me either. I don't think Doug has made biodiesel, or he 
wouldn't ask anyway - ethanol biodiesel is difficult to make, not for 
novices, not even when the ethanol is dry, methanol biodiesel is the 
way to start. I don't think we know of any novices who've succeeded 
with ethyl esters biodiesel. I don't know how Doug was planning to 
make methanol, there's no small-scale backyard way of producing 
methanol. He seems to think you can make it by treating sawdust with 
concentrated acid, but that makes ethanol, not methanol. I also don't 
understand the reference to the acid-base process for producing 
ethanol, the acid-base process at JtF produces biodiesel, not 
ethanol. Oh well.

Has nobody yet discovered whether the castor oil method for producing 
absolute ethanol works or not? I've been after a source of 20 litres 
of castor oil here in Japan but I haven't found it yet. The method is 
here:

Separating Ethanol From Water Via Differential Miscibility -- using castor oil
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html#castoil

Best

Keith

Does not make too much sense.
Andrew


- Original Message -
From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Derick Giorchino
To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol

Hi Doug I am interested in the ethanol production you are using. 
What is it can you point me in the right direction? Is it the acid 
base as is explained at J.T.F.? As for the carb problems maybe a 
marine carb is more tolerant of the alcohol fuel if not there are 
places that could chrome or anodize the carb bowls for a price you 
would need to re thread all the holes. Or maybe powder coating would 
work.

Good luck Derick


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of lres1
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 12:03 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol



Would like to know the advantages if any of using Methanol instead 
of Ethanol in making bio-diesel. It is very easy to make Ethanol 
with down to 15% water. Seems kinda silly to make Ethanol and 
Methanol if Ethanol will do all.



Have now got a MPEFI Jeep running on 80% Ethanol and 20% water as a 
straight injection. Have a few bugs to work out but total conversion 
cost is less than US$20.00.

To convert back to RUG is a flick of a switch on the dash.



This makes more sense now to use the Ethanol instead of making 
Methanol for bio-diesel production as I already make the ethanol and 
it can replace RUG in a MPEFI engine or standard carb engine. I 
still have no replies on how to lacquer or coat an alloy carburetor 
to stop reactions with the Ethanol. At present The system is fully 
drained and blown with compressed air to clear out all water and 
Ethanol. Would be kinda nice to be able to shut the engines off and 
just walk away and not have the cleaning time.



I do not want to get rid of the water in my Ethanol replacement for 
RUG as it gives much more power than RUG at 80 to 85% Ethanol and 15 
to 20% water mix. The plasticized fuel tanks and lines can handle it 
all the carbs can not.



My next step is to try and run 502 C.I. V8 engines and 351 modified 
engines and 350 C.I. engines with 4 barrel hollies on Ethanol but 
need to clear up the carb reaction problems with the alloys involved.



Would like to know how to get to 0.5% water for bio-diesel 
processing. Same question as JJJN I guess



Doug


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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol

[Derick Giorchino]

No Keith am not confused. I do make biodiesel. I use methanol and until some
one has a better way that's what I will use. I was asking about the
production of ethanol to use in other family vehicles. 
Since they are gas engines. I read on J.T.F. way back when I was starting
the venture of bio. That ethanol can be made at home using wood chips /paper
and I think there may have been also a mention of dry grass and brush and
breaking it down with sulfuric acid. But I would need to go back and read it
over. My quarry was as to the amount of yield verses raw product used per
liter /gal or what ever.
Thanks Derick.  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 6:40 AM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol

What are you people talking about?

have you ever made any type of biofuel?
Seems to me that you are confusing them all.
Acid Base process and ethanol fuel?
Methanol vs ethanol? It has sense in biodiesel production, but you are
talking
alcohol fuel for petroleum engines.

Doug is being a bit confusing. He was talking about both ethanol fuel 
in gasoline engines and using ethanol to make biodiesel. Gasoline 
engines will run on 80% ethanol and 20% water (ie 160 proof) but to 
make ethyl esters biodiesel the ethanol must be dry, and Doug doesn't 
know how to make dry ethanol (absolute), he can't do better than 85% 
( you should be able to get 95% by distillation). So Doug's question 
about ethanol vs methanol for making biodiesel doesn't make much 
sense to me either. I don't think Doug has made biodiesel, or he 
wouldn't ask anyway - ethanol biodiesel is difficult to make, not for 
novices, not even when the ethanol is dry, methanol biodiesel is the 
way to start. I don't think we know of any novices who've succeeded 
with ethyl esters biodiesel. I don't know how Doug was planning to 
make methanol, there's no small-scale backyard way of producing 
methanol. He seems to think you can make it by treating sawdust with 
concentrated acid, but that makes ethanol, not methanol. I also don't 
understand the reference to the acid-base process for producing 
ethanol, the acid-base process at JtF produces biodiesel, not 
ethanol. Oh well.

Has nobody yet discovered whether the castor oil method for producing 
absolute ethanol works or not? I've been after a source of 20 litres 
of castor oil here in Japan but I haven't found it yet. The method is 
here:

Separating Ethanol From Water Via Differential Miscibility -- using castor
oil
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html#castoil

Best

Keith

Does not make too much sense.
Andrew


- Original Message -
From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Derick Giorchino
To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol

Hi Doug I am interested in the ethanol production you are using. 
What is it can you point me in the right direction? Is it the acid 
base as is explained at J.T.F.? As for the carb problems maybe a 
marine carb is more tolerant of the alcohol fuel if not there are 
places that could chrome or anodize the carb bowls for a price you 
would need to re thread all the holes. Or maybe powder coating would 
work.

Good luck Derick


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of lres1
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 12:03 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol



Would like to know the advantages if any of using Methanol instead 
of Ethanol in making bio-diesel. It is very easy to make Ethanol 
with down to 15% water. Seems kinda silly to make Ethanol and 
Methanol if Ethanol will do all.



Have now got a MPEFI Jeep running on 80% Ethanol and 20% water as a 
straight injection. Have a few bugs to work out but total conversion 
cost is less than US$20.00.

To convert back to RUG is a flick of a switch on the dash.



This makes more sense now to use the Ethanol instead of making 
Methanol for bio-diesel production as I already make the ethanol and 
it can replace RUG in a MPEFI engine or standard carb engine. I 
still have no replies on how to lacquer or coat an alloy carburetor 
to stop reactions with the Ethanol. At present The system is fully 
drained and blown with compressed air to clear out all water and 
Ethanol. Would be kinda nice to be able to shut the engines off and 
just walk away and not have the cleaning time.



I do not want to get rid of the water in my Ethanol replacement for 
RUG as it gives much more power than RUG at 80 to 85% Ethanol and 15 
to 20% water mix. The plasticized fuel tanks and lines can handle it 
all the carbs can not.



My next step is to try and run 502 C.I. V8 engines and 351 modified 
engines and 350 C.I. engines with 4 barrel hollies on Ethanol but 
need to clear up the carb reaction problems with the alloys involved

Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol

[bob allen]

Derick, you are talking about cellolosic ethanol, that is ethanol made from 
cellulose, rather than 
from starch.  This is the holy grail of ethanol production. Very small 
amounts of ethanol can be 
made from sulfuric acid digestion of cellulose, but the yield is abysmal and 
the cost high.  My 
position is it is not worth the time, trouble, and expense.  the problems are 
manifold.  First is 
the fact that the lignin present, which binds the cellulose, is not easily 
separable from the 
cellulose,and hydrolysis of cellulose to free the sugars is much more difficult 
that that of starch, 
and finally the sugars released from cellulose fermentation are not easily 
fermentable with yeast.
Big bucks have been spent trying to solve these problems since at least the 
70's with little or no 
success.  Simply, if it were easy, it would be happening everywhere, as the 
feedstock- cellulosic 
wastes-are abundant.


Derick Giorchino wrote:
 No Keith am not confused. I do make biodiesel. I use methanol and until some
 one has a better way that's what I will use. I was asking about the
 production of ethanol to use in other family vehicles. 
 Since they are gas engines. I read on J.T.F. way back when I was starting
 the venture of bio. That ethanol can be made at home using wood chips /paper
 and I think there may have been also a mention of dry grass and brush and
 breaking it down with sulfuric acid. But I would need to go back and read it
 over. My quarry was as to the amount of yield verses raw product used per
 liter /gal or what ever.
 Thanks Derick.  
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
 Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 6:40 AM
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol
 
 What are you people talking about?

 have you ever made any type of biofuel?
 Seems to me that you are confusing them all.
 Acid Base process and ethanol fuel?
 Methanol vs ethanol? It has sense in biodiesel production, but you are
 talking
 alcohol fuel for petroleum engines.
 
 Doug is being a bit confusing. He was talking about both ethanol fuel 
 in gasoline engines and using ethanol to make biodiesel. Gasoline 
 engines will run on 80% ethanol and 20% water (ie 160 proof) but to 
 make ethyl esters biodiesel the ethanol must be dry, and Doug doesn't 
 know how to make dry ethanol (absolute), he can't do better than 85% 
 ( you should be able to get 95% by distillation). So Doug's question 
 about ethanol vs methanol for making biodiesel doesn't make much 
 sense to me either. I don't think Doug has made biodiesel, or he 
 wouldn't ask anyway - ethanol biodiesel is difficult to make, not for 
 novices, not even when the ethanol is dry, methanol biodiesel is the 
 way to start. I don't think we know of any novices who've succeeded 
 with ethyl esters biodiesel. I don't know how Doug was planning to 
 make methanol, there's no small-scale backyard way of producing 
 methanol. He seems to think you can make it by treating sawdust with 
 concentrated acid, but that makes ethanol, not methanol. I also don't 
 understand the reference to the acid-base process for producing 
 ethanol, the acid-base process at JtF produces biodiesel, not 
 ethanol. Oh well.
 
 Has nobody yet discovered whether the castor oil method for producing 
 absolute ethanol works or not? I've been after a source of 20 litres 
 of castor oil here in Japan but I haven't found it yet. The method is 
 here:
 
 Separating Ethanol From Water Via Differential Miscibility -- using castor
 oil
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html#castoil
 
 Best
 
 Keith
 
 Does not make too much sense.
 Andrew


 - Original Message -
 From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Derick Giorchino
 To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 1:01 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol

 Hi Doug I am interested in the ethanol production you are using. 
 What is it can you point me in the right direction? Is it the acid 
 base as is explained at J.T.F.? As for the carb problems maybe a 
 marine carb is more tolerant of the alcohol fuel if not there are 
 places that could chrome or anodize the carb bowls for a price you 
 would need to re thread all the holes. Or maybe powder coating would 
 work.

 Good luck Derick


 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of lres1
 Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 12:03 AM
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol



 Would like to know the advantages if any of using Methanol instead 
 of Ethanol in making bio-diesel. It is very easy to make Ethanol 
 with down to 15% water. Seems kinda silly to make Ethanol and 
 Methanol if Ethanol will do all.



 Have now got a MPEFI Jeep running on 80% Ethanol and 20% water as a 
 straight injection. Have a few bugs to work out but total conversion 
 cost is less than US

Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol

[Derick Giorchino]

Thanks for the response Keith. 
This is very good info for me. I do not wish to spend a lot of time trying
to do something that is close to imposable or just impractical.
When I could be out collecting U.V.O. or making bio d.
Would you have any idea what Doug is speeking of earlier in this post? 
He makes it sound like ethanol is easily done. I maybe reading into this
though. Derick.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of bob allen
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 3:20 PM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol

Derick, you are talking about cellolosic ethanol, that is ethanol made
from cellulose, rather than 
from starch.  This is the holy grail of ethanol production. Very small
amounts of ethanol can be 
made from sulfuric acid digestion of cellulose, but the yield is abysmal and
the cost high.  My 
position is it is not worth the time, trouble, and expense.  the problems
are manifold.  First is 
the fact that the lignin present, which binds the cellulose, is not easily
separable from the 
cellulose,and hydrolysis of cellulose to free the sugars is much more
difficult that that of starch, 
and finally the sugars released from cellulose fermentation are not easily
fermentable with yeast.
Big bucks have been spent trying to solve these problems since at least the
70's with little or no 
success.  Simply, if it were easy, it would be happening everywhere, as the
feedstock- cellulosic 
wastes-are abundant.


Derick Giorchino wrote:
 No Keith am not confused. I do make biodiesel. I use methanol and until
some
 one has a better way that's what I will use. I was asking about the
 production of ethanol to use in other family vehicles. 
 Since they are gas engines. I read on J.T.F. way back when I was starting
 the venture of bio. That ethanol can be made at home using wood chips
/paper
 and I think there may have been also a mention of dry grass and brush and
 breaking it down with sulfuric acid. But I would need to go back and read
it
 over. My quarry was as to the amount of yield verses raw product used per
 liter /gal or what ever.
 Thanks Derick.  
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
 Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 6:40 AM
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol
 
 What are you people talking about?

 have you ever made any type of biofuel?
 Seems to me that you are confusing them all.
 Acid Base process and ethanol fuel?
 Methanol vs ethanol? It has sense in biodiesel production, but you are
 talking
 alcohol fuel for petroleum engines.
 
 Doug is being a bit confusing. He was talking about both ethanol fuel 
 in gasoline engines and using ethanol to make biodiesel. Gasoline 
 engines will run on 80% ethanol and 20% water (ie 160 proof) but to 
 make ethyl esters biodiesel the ethanol must be dry, and Doug doesn't 
 know how to make dry ethanol (absolute), he can't do better than 85% 
 ( you should be able to get 95% by distillation). So Doug's question 
 about ethanol vs methanol for making biodiesel doesn't make much 
 sense to me either. I don't think Doug has made biodiesel, or he 
 wouldn't ask anyway - ethanol biodiesel is difficult to make, not for 
 novices, not even when the ethanol is dry, methanol biodiesel is the 
 way to start. I don't think we know of any novices who've succeeded 
 with ethyl esters biodiesel. I don't know how Doug was planning to 
 make methanol, there's no small-scale backyard way of producing 
 methanol. He seems to think you can make it by treating sawdust with 
 concentrated acid, but that makes ethanol, not methanol. I also don't 
 understand the reference to the acid-base process for producing 
 ethanol, the acid-base process at JtF produces biodiesel, not 
 ethanol. Oh well.
 
 Has nobody yet discovered whether the castor oil method for producing 
 absolute ethanol works or not? I've been after a source of 20 litres 
 of castor oil here in Japan but I haven't found it yet. The method is 
 here:
 
 Separating Ethanol From Water Via Differential Miscibility -- using castor
 oil
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html#castoil
 
 Best
 
 Keith
 
 Does not make too much sense.
 Andrew


 - Original Message -
 From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Derick Giorchino
 To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 1:01 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol

 Hi Doug I am interested in the ethanol production you are using. 
 What is it can you point me in the right direction? Is it the acid 
 base as is explained at J.T.F.? As for the carb problems maybe a 
 marine carb is more tolerant of the alcohol fuel if not there are 
 places that could chrome or anodize the carb bowls for a price you 
 would need to re thread all the holes. Or maybe powder coating would 
 work.

 Good luck

Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol

[Keith Addison]

Would like to know the advantages if any of using Methanol instead 
of Ethanol in making bio-diesel. It is very easy to make Ethanol 
with down to 15% water. Seems kinda silly to make Ethanol and 
Methanol if Ethanol will do all.

Have now got a MPEFI Jeep running on 80% Ethanol and 20% water as a 
straight injection. Have a few bugs to work out but total conversion 
cost is less than US$20.00.
To convert back to RUG is a flick of a switch on the dash.

This makes more sense now to use the Ethanol instead of making 
Methanol for bio-diesel production as I already make the ethanol and 
it can replace RUG in a MPEFI engine or standard carb engine. I 
still have no replies on how to lacquer or coat an alloy carburetor 
to stop reactions with the Ethanol. At present The system is fully 
drained and blown with compressed air to clear out all water and 
Ethanol. Would be kinda nice to be able to shut the engines off and 
just walk away and not have the cleaning time.

I do not want to get rid of the water in my Ethanol replacement for 
RUG as it gives much more power than RUG at 80 to 85% Ethanol and 15 
to 20% water mix. The plasticized fuel tanks and lines can handle it 
all the carbs can not.

My next step is to try and run 502 C.I. V8 engines and 351 modified 
engines and 350 C.I. engines with 4 barrel hollies on Ethanol but 
need to clear up the carb reaction problems with the alloys involved.

Would like to know how to get to 0.5% water for bio-diesel 
processing. Same question as JJJN I guess

Doug

I think you said quite some time ago that you were making biodiesel 
with ethanol.

Have you actually made any ethyl esters biodiesel yet, or any biodiesel yet?

Best

Keith
 


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Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
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Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol

[Derick Giorchino]

Hi Doug I am interested in the ethanol
production you are using. What is it can you point me in the right direction? Is
it the acid base as is explained at J.T.F.? As for the carb problems maybe a
marine carb is more tolerant of the alcohol fuel if not there are places that
could chrome or anodize the carb bowls for a price you would need to re thread
all the holes. Or maybe powder coating would work.

Good luck Derick









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of lres1
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006
12:03 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's
Methanol







Would like to know the advantages if any of using Methanol
instead of Ethanol in making bio-diesel. It is very easy to make Ethanol with
down to 15% water. Seems kinda silly to make Ethanol and Methanol if Ethanol
will do all.











Have now got a MPEFI Jeep running on 80% Ethanol and 20%
water as a straight injection. Have a few bugs to work out but total conversion
cost is less than US$20.00.





To convert back to RUG is a flick of a switch on the dash.











This makes more sense now to use the Ethanol instead of
making Methanol for bio-diesel production as I already make the ethanol and it
can replace RUG in a MPEFI engine or standard carb engine. I still have no
replies on how to lacquer or coat an alloy carburetor to stop reactions with
the Ethanol. At present The system is fully drained and blown with compressed
air to clear out all water and Ethanol. Would be kinda nice to be able to shut
the engines off and just walk away and not have the cleaning time. 











I do not want to get rid of the water in my Ethanol
replacement for RUG as it gives much more power than RUG at 80 to 85% Ethanol
and 15 to 20% water mix. The plasticized fuel tanks and lines can handle it all
the carbs can not.











My next step is to try and run 502 C.I.V8 engines and
351 modified engines and 350 C.I. engineswith 4 barrel hollies on Ethanol
but need to clear up the carb reaction problems with the alloys involved.











Would like to know how to get to 0.5% water for bio-diesel
processing. Same question as JJJN I guess











Doug 








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http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol use

[Pagandai Pannirselvam]

 Hi Charles  There is a patented information about using the zeolites at the top of the reactor , which can be very selective to adsorb and return back pure alcohol see google search using free patent site.
Then you can recover the catalyst using solar energy to remove water.In the case of ethanol , the higher temperature , I am not sure that higher can fovour the reaction.Can any one have the experience to give more informatiion?
With kind regars to all biofuel members yours truelyPannirselvam P.V2006/8/21, Charles List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
:Hi allIt's slowly turning to spring down here in the southern hemisphere,
and a young man's thoughts turn to what he's going to get up to inthose long summer evenings. Me, I think only of biofuel! I am havinggood progress and results with methanol but my long term plan is tobe completely self- sufficient and ferment my own ethanol to use in
my reaction. I will first buy some denatured ethanol to practice on,and I have read what is on the JtF web-site and realise I will needto really dewater my oil, use more ethanol than methanol etc. I wouldlike to know, however, if I can increase the temperature of the
reaction mixture to cut down the time taken for the reaction asethanol boils at 78C rather than 65C, and if there are any otherhints/ tips people can give through their experience of this reaction.Thanks
Charles List This email was sent using Telecom SchoolZone.www.schoolzone.net.nz
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol use

[Jan Warnqvist]

Hello Ken, Charles et al.
Ethanol can be somewhat tricky to deal with when it comes to producing
biodiesel.
The glycerine drop is related to the amount of ethyl esters that you have
created during the process. This is suggesting that you will need a certain
qty of ethyl esters produced in order to have a spontaneous glycerol drop.
To make sure that you have a sufficient amount, the ethanol stochiometric
surplus should be at least 75% or rather 100%. The stochiometric
relationships are much more important than increasing of the reaction
temperature, say 5 or 10 degrees. But also note that the ethanol inserted
has to be anhydrous.
Best of luck to you !
Jan Warnqvist
AGERATEC AB


+ 46 554 201 89
+46 70 499 38 45
- Original Message - 
From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 4:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol use



 On Aug 21, 2006, at 1:57 PM, Charles List wrote:


  I would like to know, however, if I can increase the temperature
  of the  reaction mixture to cut down the time taken for the reaction
  as  ethanol boils at 78C rather than 65C.


 You probably could, but the separation of glycerol takes such a
 long time with ethanol (hours maybe), and the reactants are all
 in solution that whole time (completely clear, single phase), that
 you probably don't need more than the usual heating to get the
 reaction to go as far as it will.

 -K




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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol use

[Ken Provost]

On Aug 21, 2006, at 1:57 PM, Charles List wrote:


 I would like to know, however, if I can increase the temperature
 of the  reaction mixture to cut down the time taken for the reaction
 as  ethanol boils at 78C rather than 65C.


You probably could, but the separation of glycerol takes such a
long time with ethanol (hours maybe), and the reactants are all
in solution that whole time (completely clear, single phase), that
you probably don't need more than the usual heating to get the
reaction to go as far as it will.

-K




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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines

[FRANCISCO]

Hi
Ethanol is close to gasoline when referring to fueling energy to an
engine. Therefore cetane number is low even though ethanol prefers
higher pressure than regular gasoline. So ethanol diesel blend to be
viable as fuel and easy the blending has to have two supports: cetane
improver additive to easy combustion and a electronic/software
combination which can adjust ignition timing and pumpin all the time. (
Please remember atomiztion is diferent also!) In order to reduce the
amount of additive ( very expensive and it is like TNT - worsening
stability) I assume they use some diesel so it helps ignition (Please
note) This reminds me the natural gas/diesel dual fuel engine where
the diesel is used as the spark plug and the electronics do the rest.
Please remember when we have two types of fuel two explosions will
always happen and in the case of the diesel/cetane improver/alcohol we
might have three explosions and this is not good for the engine so in
the long run efficiency is jeopardize severely.
Hakan you are right: The cetane improver experiences with alcohol have
been done a long time by Scania and in fact they tried to introduce
this technology in Brasil. It is not used because it was considered too
expensive. 
The consumption should be much higher than the 100% diesel ( energy
content per mass and volume admission in the combustion chamber ) and
considering the new refining technologies the emissions of the new
blend should not be better. We still do not know the effect of aldehyde
on the environment a please pay attention nitrates generates NOx thru
exhaust pipe and aldehyde and NOx are always there when using alcohol.
Also diesel engines do operate at higher temperatures and this can
affect exhaust gases worsening emissions environmentally speaking.
In my opinion we have to scrutinize this approach thouruglly and this
approach it is not novel. 
I love ppo svo and biodiesel.
very best fo rall of us
Chic


Hakan Falk wrote:

  Keith,

If I remembered right, the Swedish diesel buses are running on a wood 
alcohol mix, with some sort of additive. In Sweden it is now more and 
more common that the buses use biofuel.

Hakan


At 18:47 07/06/2006, you wrote:
  
  
Hi Tomas



  Hi,

this one fuel combination is interesting.
I've never heard about such possibility before:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/xcelplus_acquir.html

--
Tomas Juknevicius
  


Fuel-Cycle Energy and Emission Impacts of Ethanol-Diesel Blends in
Urban Buses and Farming Tractors, (July 2003, 992kb pdf)
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/280.pdf

The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel
by S.W. Mathewson
Chapter 3 UTILIZATION OF ALCOHOL FUELS
Diesel Engines
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual3.html

Best

Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines

[Jan Warnqvist]

Just wanting to make some remarks 
.
The Scania ethanol buses are running 
on a special ethanol quality blend consisting from ethanol (95%), a cetane 
improver called Bereid, which I am told is a polyglycol, and a lubricant. The 
injection timing is normal (approx 20 degrees before TDC) and all engines are 
equipped with intercooler which functions as an air heater when the engine runs 
on idle. Ethanol is not self-evident as a diesel fuel, but progress has been 
done.
Jan Warnqvist

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  FRANCISCO 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 4:25 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel 
  engines
  HiEthanol is close to gasoline when referring to fueling 
  energy to an engine. Therefore cetane number is low even though ethanol 
  prefers higher pressure than regular gasoline. So ethanol diesel blend to be 
  viable as fuel and easy the blending has to have two supports: cetane improver 
  additive to easy combustion and a electronic/software combination which can 
  adjust ignition timing and pumpin all the time. ( Please remember atomiztion 
  is diferent also!) In order to reduce the amount of additive ( very 
  expensive and it is like TNT - worsening stability) I assume they use some 
  diesel so it helps ignition (Please note) This reminds me the natural 
  gas/diesel dual fuel engine where the diesel is used as the spark plug and the 
  electronics do the rest. Please remember when we have two types of fuel two 
  explosions will always happen and in the case of the diesel/cetane 
  improver/alcohol we might have three explosions and this is not good for the 
  engine so in the long run efficiency is jeopardize severely.Hakan you are 
  right: The cetane improver experiences with alcohol have been done a long time 
  by Scania and in fact they tried to introduce this technology in Brasil. It is 
  not used because it was considered too expensive. The consumption should 
  be much higher than the 100% diesel ( energy content per mass and volume 
  admission in the combustion chamber ) and considering the new refining 
  technologies the emissions of the new blend should not be better. We 
  still do not know the effect of aldehyde on the environment a please pay 
  attention nitrates generates NOx thru exhaust pipe and aldehyde and NOx are 
  always there when using alcohol. Also diesel engines do operate at higher 
  temperatures and this can affect exhaust gases worsening emissions 
  environmentally speaking.In my opinion we have to scrutinize this approach 
  thouruglly and this approach it is not novel. I love ppo svo and 
  biodiesel.very best fo rall of usChicHakan Falk wrote: 
  Keith,

If I remembered right, the Swedish diesel buses are running on a wood 
alcohol mix, with some sort of additive. In Sweden it is now more and 
more common that the buses use biofuel.

Hakan


At 18:47 07/06/2006, you wrote:
  
Hi Tomas


  Hi,

this one fuel combination is interesting.
I've never heard about such possibility before:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/xcelplus_acquir.html

--
Tomas Juknevicius
  Fuel-Cycle Energy and Emission Impacts of Ethanol-Diesel Blends in
Urban Buses and Farming Tractors, (July 2003, 992kb pdf)
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/280.pdf

The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel
by S.W. Mathewson
Chapter 3 UTILIZATION OF ALCOHOL FUELS
Diesel Engines
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual3.html

Best

Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines

[Tomas Juknevicius]

Ah, it just opens the new energy path.
If only the BD could be used for diesels,
only the energy from oily plants can be harvested for usage in cars.
With this new path, more avenues are opened. Energy input from
starchy plants (especially keeping in mind the ethanol generation from
celulose) can now be tapped. This setup might be more suitable for colder 
climates,
than current rapeseed approach.

Anyway, ethanol burning in the diesel is more economical than
burning the same ethanol in otto cycle engines
(the current crop of flex-fuel vehicles).

The only nagging question is that additive mentioned in the article.

Jason Katie wrote:
 
 if the exhaust isnt any better than a gasoline engine on ethanol, what
 difference would it make whether or not it was ethy or BD? it sounds like
 the additive isnt all the best either

--
Tomas Juknevicius

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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines

[Keith Addison]

Hi Tomas

Hi,

this one fuel combination is interesting.
I've never heard about such possibility before:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/xcelplus_acquir.html

--
Tomas Juknevicius


Fuel-Cycle Energy and Emission Impacts of Ethanol-Diesel Blends in 
Urban Buses and Farming Tractors, (July 2003, 992kb pdf)
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/280.pdf

The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel
by S.W. Mathewson
Chapter 3 UTILIZATION OF ALCOHOL FUELS
Diesel Engines
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual3.html

Best

Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines

[Hakan Falk]

Keith,

If I remembered right, the Swedish diesel buses are running on a wood 
alcohol mix, with some sort of additive. In Sweden it is now more and 
more common that the buses use biofuel.

Hakan


At 18:47 07/06/2006, you wrote:
Hi Tomas

 Hi,
 
 this one fuel combination is interesting.
 I've never heard about such possibility before:
 
 http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/xcelplus_acquir.html
 
 --
 Tomas Juknevicius


Fuel-Cycle Energy and Emission Impacts of Ethanol-Diesel Blends in
Urban Buses and Farming Tractors, (July 2003, 992kb pdf)
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/280.pdf

The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel
by S.W. Mathewson
Chapter 3 UTILIZATION OF ALCOHOL FUELS
Diesel Engines
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual3.html

Best

Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines

[Jason Katie]

if the exhaust isnt any better than a gasoline engine on ethanol, what 
difference would it make whether or not it was ethy or BD? it sounds like 
the additive isnt all the best either
- Original Message - 
From: Tomas Juknevicius [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 8:43 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines


 Hi,

 this one fuel combination is interesting.
 I've never heard about such possibility before:

 http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/xcelplus_acquir.html

 --
 Tomas Juknevicius

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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol boom or bust?

[Tom Irwin]

Hi Darryl and all,

We´ve seen a sharp jump in the price of sugar here in Uruguay. It had been about 13 Uruguayan pesos (about .50 U.S. dollars). Now its about 23 pesos.

Tom Irwin


From: Darryl McMahon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 08:21:25 -0300Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol boom or bust?Ethanol boom or bust?Whether Canada's answer to Kyoto will work is the mystery
Snip
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol without distillation

[pan ruti]

I also pulled paper from internet using googleArticle  Ethanol production by extractive fermentation  M. Minier, G. Goma *Départment de Génie Biochimique et Alimentaire, ERA-CNRS No. 879. INSA, Avenue de Rangueil, F-31077 Toulouse Cédex, France  *Correspondence to G. Goma, Départment de Génie Biochimique et Alimentaire, ERA-CNRS No. 879. INSA, Avenue de Rangueil, F-31077 Toulouse Cédex, France  setDOI("ADOI=10.1002/bit.260240710")Abstract   
   The ideal method to produce a terminal metabolite inhibitor of cell growth and production is to remove and recover it from the fermenting broth as it formed. Extractive fermentation is achieved in the case of ethanol production by coupling both fermentation and liquid-liquid extraction, The solvent of extraction is 1-dodecanol (or a mixture 1-dedecanol, 1-tetradecanol); study of the inhibitory effect of primary aliphatic alcohols of different chain lengths shows that no growth is observed in the presence of alcohols which have between 2 and 12 carbons. This effect is suppressed when the carbon number is 12 or higher. A new reactor has been used-1 pulsed packed column. Pulsation is performed pneumatically. Porous material used as a package adsorbs the cells. The fermentation broth is pulsed in order to (1) increase the interfacial area between the aqueous phase and the dodecanol, (2) decrease gas holdup. Alcoholic fermentation, performed at 35°C on
 glucose syrup, permits the total utilization of glucose solution of 409 g/L with a yeast which cannot-in classical process- completely use solutions with 200 g/L of glucose. The feasibility of a new method of fermentation coupling both liquid-liquid extraction and fermentation is demonstrated. Extension of this method is possible to any microbial production inhibited by its metabolite excretion.  The octanol from castor can be better one than Castor oil. Pure Castor oil canbe good one. The pulsing fase seperation can help the seperation very fast. In Canada the extractive fermentation has been shown to be very sucessful.For small scale we need still simplify this process.This very usful information published in JTF can end the distillation process and hence the need for Bioler and its high pressure pump. yet
 more information is needed, as this process can give pure ethanol, almost all the information is kept as industrial top secret or sold .Jason go ahead practical experiments and I am sure you are in right direction and we , small research group from Brazil wish this process a big sucess .If any one from the list has used this process .Let us know sd  PannirselvamJason  Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  i pulled a paper from the library describing separating ethanol from water using castor oil. can this be done using any kind of oil, or are their certain characteristics of the oil not described in the paper?http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html
 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol without distillation

[pan ruti]

I also pulled paper from internet using googleArticle  Ethanol production by extractive fermentation  M. Minier, G. Goma *Départment de Génie Biochimique et Alimentaire, ERA-CNRS No. 879. INSA, Avenue de Rangueil, F-31077 Toulouse Cédex, France  *Correspondence to G. Goma, Départment de Génie Biochimique et Alimentaire, ERA-CNRS No. 879. INSA, Avenue de Rangueil, F-31077 Toulouse Cédex, France  setDOI("ADOI=10.1002/bit.260240710")Abstract   
   The ideal method to produce a terminal metabolite inhibitor of cell growth and production is to remove and recover it from the fermenting broth as it formed. Extractive fermentation is achieved in the case of ethanol production by coupling both fermentation and liquid-liquid extraction, The solvent of extraction is 1-dodecanol (or a mixture 1-dedecanol, 1-tetradecanol); study of the inhibitory effect of primary aliphatic alcohols of different chain lengths shows that no growth is observed in the presence of alcohols which have between 2 and 12 carbons. This effect is suppressed when the carbon number is 12 or higher. A new reactor has been used-1 pulsed packed column. Pulsation is performed pneumatically. Porous material used as a package adsorbs the cells. The fermentation broth is pulsed in order to (1) increase the interfacial area between the aqueous phase and the dodecanol, (2) decrease gas holdup. Alcoholic fermentation, performed at 35°C on
 glucose syrup, permits the total utilization of glucose solution of 409 g/L with a yeast which cannot-in classical process- completely use solutions with 200 g/L of glucose. The feasibility of a new method of fermentation coupling both liquid-liquid extraction and fermentation is demonstrated. Extension of this method is possible to any microbial production inhibited by its metabolite excretion.  The octanol from castor can be better one than Castor oil. Pure Castor oil canbe good one. The pulsing fase seperation can help the seperation very fast. In Canada the extractive fermentation has been shown to be very sucessful.For small scale we need still simplify this process.This very usful information published in JTF can end the distillation process and hence the need for Bioler and its high pressure pump. yet
 more information is needed, as this process can give pure ethanol, almost all the information is kept as industrial top secret or sold .Jason go ahead practical experiments and I am sure you are in right direction and we , small research group from Brazil wish this process a big sucess .If any one from the list has used this process .Let us know sd  PannirselvamJason  Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  i pulled a paper from the library describing separating ethanol from water using castor oil. can this be done using any kind of oil, or are their certain characteristics of the oil not described in the paper?http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html
 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol vs Biodiesel

[Ken Provost]

On Feb 3, 2006, at 12:58 PM, anna b wrote:


 I am curious as to why ethanol has dominated the
 recent discussion in main stream media of alternative
 fuels.  The way I see it biodiesel is already
 available as are diesel cars to use it.



Think of the historical difference in cost between
bread and olive oil. Ethanol can be made from
bread, biodiesel requires vegoil. The quality
of the feedstock is much higher for biodiesel,
and so will be the cost -- especially in those
places where waste oils (ie, fried foods) aren't
so readily available as in suburban US.

Also, biodiesel requires constructing production
facilities that don't exist presently. Ethanol is a
common product worldwide already.

Also, of course, Bush's friends would rather
make ethanol :-)

-K


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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method glycerin ?

[Mark Kennedy]

Are you saying that it may be possible to take the gycerin by product after
making biodiesel, ferment it then distill it to make ethanol?
-Mark


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bioclaire
 Nederland
 Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:53 PM
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: [Biofuel] ethanol method glycerin ?


 Hi all,
 As you will know, glycerin is highly hygroscopic.
 Did anyone of you ever try to make 100% ethanol (200 proof) using
 glycerin ?

 Pieter
 Netherlands.


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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method glycerin ?

[Keith Addison]

Are you saying that it may be possible to take the gycerin by product after
making biodiesel, ferment it then distill it to make ethanol?
-Mark

See:
Absolute Alcohol Using Glycerine
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html#alcglyc

Keith


  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bioclaire
  Nederland
  Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:53 PM
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  Subject: [Biofuel] ethanol method glycerin ?
 
 
  Hi all,
  As you will know, glycerin is highly hygroscopic.
  Did anyone of you ever try to make 100% ethanol (200 proof) using
  glycerin ?
 
  Pieter
  Netherlands.


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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

[Bioclaire Nederland]

Can somebody explain me what is Drano ?

Pieter.

- Original Message -
From: Derick Giorchino [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method


 This is more a warning than a question. But many years ago I was told that
 if you put Drano in a ping pong ball by use of a syringe then seal the
hole.
 Throw the ball in gasoline and run your ass off. The gas was supposed to
 melt the ball and there was supposed to be a very big explosion. I never
 tried this although I was young at the time, I was not that stupid. If
this
 is true gas in bio with lye have a negative effect. As I said this maybe a
 myth but its worth checking on.
 Good health. Derick

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
 Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:46 AM
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

 A small amount of gasoline in the biodiesel shouldn't affect it too
 much.  Some of the crazy schemes for using unheated SVO call for
 mixing it with 15% gasoline or such.  While I don't think this is
 necessarily good for the diesel engine, the majority of the problems I
 have heard of from doing this are not sufficiently dissolving the oil,
 not problems with the gasoline component per se.

 It also seems that gasoline should be separable from biodiesel by
 distillation, because of the much lower vapor pressure of gasoline,
 although I am not sure about that.

 Z

 On 1/26/06, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Jan, Wouldn't you expect that  500 ppm water would be picked up in any
  recovered ethanol, due to even a small amount of soap production?  also
  if the ethanol used is for automobile use, is it an  E-85 blend, ie, 15%
  gasoline?  If so I would think that the gasoline would partition into
  any biodiesel made from this alcohol source.  How would the gasoline
  impact the biodiesel?
 
  Jan Warnqvist wrote:
   Hello Bias Antonio,
   Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated.
In
   order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be
high:
   ethanol min 99,5% pure and
   oil with a water content  500 ppm and
   a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ?
   The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover
the
   excess ethanol.
   Good luck to you
   AGERATEC AB
   Jan Warnqvist
   - Original Message -
   From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
   Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM
   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
  
  
   On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote:
  
  
the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol
   for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is
   sold in bags of 25  kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua
   it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want
   know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH
  
   Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is
   difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by
   boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly
   make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH
   per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you
will
   probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your
   ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever.
   Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel.
  
   -K
  
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 http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
  
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  Science is what we have learned about how to keep
  from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman
 
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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

[Blas Antonio Guanes]

Here in Paraguay absolute alcohol takes place to use in cars with structure 
modified mechanics, it is pure ethanol. That is here an advantage. then like 
you recommend to make ethoxid?, if it is with KOH, like you to extract 5% of 
water that it is generated with the reaction KOH + EtOH..
I will prove again with NaOH in 7 g/l heating. Then I will see that it 
happens. How much isgood proportion  to prove with new oil?

_
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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

[Derick Giorchino]

Sorry Pieter I guess I should have told you Drano is a NHO caustic soda base
drain cleaner.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bioclaire
Nederland
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 10:03 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

Can somebody explain me what is Drano ?

Pieter.

- Original Message -
From: Derick Giorchino [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method


 This is more a warning than a question. But many years ago I was told that
 if you put Drano in a ping pong ball by use of a syringe then seal the
hole.
 Throw the ball in gasoline and run your ass off. The gas was supposed to
 melt the ball and there was supposed to be a very big explosion. I never
 tried this although I was young at the time, I was not that stupid. If
this
 is true gas in bio with lye have a negative effect. As I said this maybe a
 myth but its worth checking on.
 Good health. Derick

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
 Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:46 AM
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

 A small amount of gasoline in the biodiesel shouldn't affect it too
 much.  Some of the crazy schemes for using unheated SVO call for
 mixing it with 15% gasoline or such.  While I don't think this is
 necessarily good for the diesel engine, the majority of the problems I
 have heard of from doing this are not sufficiently dissolving the oil,
 not problems with the gasoline component per se.

 It also seems that gasoline should be separable from biodiesel by
 distillation, because of the much lower vapor pressure of gasoline,
 although I am not sure about that.

 Z

 On 1/26/06, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Jan, Wouldn't you expect that  500 ppm water would be picked up in any
  recovered ethanol, due to even a small amount of soap production?  also
  if the ethanol used is for automobile use, is it an  E-85 blend, ie, 15%
  gasoline?  If so I would think that the gasoline would partition into
  any biodiesel made from this alcohol source.  How would the gasoline
  impact the biodiesel?
 
  Jan Warnqvist wrote:
   Hello Bias Antonio,
   Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated.
In
   order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be
high:
   ethanol min 99,5% pure and
   oil with a water content  500 ppm and
   a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ?
   The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover
the
   excess ethanol.
   Good luck to you
   AGERATEC AB
   Jan Warnqvist
   - Original Message -
   From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
   Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM
   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
  
  
   On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote:
  
  
the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol
   for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is
   sold in bags of 25  kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua
   it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want
   know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH
  
   Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is
   difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by
   boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly
   make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH
   per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you
will
   probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your
   ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever.
   Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel.
  
   -K
  
   ___
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 http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
  
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  Science is what we have learned about how to keep
  from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman
 
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  Biofuel

Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method in remote place

[pan ruti]

 Hello Anthonio, Ken and Keith Iam sure that big company like BASF are trying to make ethoxideIN GLOBAL Market in big scale to sell to ruralpeople (high price too) so that Biod can be easily made with ethoxide( ethanol and NaOH)using patended catalyst, butwe can make in the cites this one as well outined process by Ken here ( Thanka a lot for HEN) thus BioD can be produced by any oneand any where, especially where even in rural remote place .This can be more practical and easy  wayso that Anthoni can get help from university in the city , who has technical skill to make possible the dificult part of the process ( the chemical engineering people like us ) colaborating , his dreams to make cheap biofuel,can
 be the wish of all our members inthe list. Can any here in our list , and sure Keith to to bring here the stae of art of making the Biod in different places, what is pro and against the etoxide methods.Can this method can help or not the biofuel development against the petroleium fuel.  Thanking you  Yours truely  Pannirselvam P.V   Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote: the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in
 Paragua it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOHHave you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It isdifficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps byboiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possiblymake biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOHper liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you willprobably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All youringredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever.Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel.-K___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined
 Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/  
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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

[Jan Warnqvist]

Hello Bias Antonio,
Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In
order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high:
ethanol min 99,5% pure and
oil with a water content  500 ppm and
a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ?
The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the
excess ethanol.
Good luck to you
AGERATEC AB
Jan Warnqvist
- Original Message -
From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method



 On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote:


   the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol
  for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is
  sold in bags of 25  kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua
  it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want
  know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH


 Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is
 difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by
 boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly
 make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH
 per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will
 probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your
 ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever.
 Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel.

 -K

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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method in remote place

[Ken Provost]

On Jan 26, 2006, at 2:29 AM, pan ruti wrote:

 I am sure  that big company like  BASF  are trying to
 make  ethoxide IN GLOBAL Market in big scale  to sell
 to rural people  (high price too) so that Biod  can be
 easily made with ethoxide( ethanol and NaOH).


If you started with pure sodium ethoxide as a catalyst
rather than trying to make your own with ethanol and lye,
you could have an easier time of it. Might be hard to find
in a rural area, but it has the added advantage of not
contributing water to the mix. You could also use sodium
metal rather than lye (!!!) to produce your own ethoxide.


 Can any here in our list ..what is pro and against the
 ethoxide methods.


The biggest disadvantage of ethanol over methanol is
that the base-catalyzed biodiesel reactions do not occur
as readily, since ethanol is less acidic than methanol.
More catalyst is needed, and more ethanol to drive the
equilibrium. Acid-catalyzed ESTERification (of soapstock
or FFA) would occur just as easily with ethanol as methanol.

Another major problem with ethanol is that distillation
alone will not produce anhydrous ethanol, which is
essential for the base-catalyzed method.

The biggest advantage of ethanol is the obvious one --
it is readily produced and distilled (but not easily dried)
all over the world from renewable sources.

The best solution for biodiesel would be a cheap  easy
way to make methanol from biomass.


-K



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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

[bob allen]

Jan, Wouldn't you expect that  500 ppm water would be picked up in any 
recovered ethanol, due to even a small amount of soap production?  also 
if the ethanol used is for automobile use, is it an  E-85 blend, ie, 15% 
gasoline?  If so I would think that the gasoline would partition into 
any biodiesel made from this alcohol source.  How would the gasoline 
impact the biodiesel?

Jan Warnqvist wrote:
 Hello Bias Antonio,
 Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In
 order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high:
 ethanol min 99,5% pure and
 oil with a water content  500 ppm and
 a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ?
 The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the
 excess ethanol.
 Good luck to you
 AGERATEC AB
 Jan Warnqvist
 - Original Message -
 From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
 
 
 On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote:


  the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol
 for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is
 sold in bags of 25  kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua
 it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want
 know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH

 Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is
 difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by
 boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly
 make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH
 per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will
 probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your
 ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever.
 Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel.

 -K

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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

[Zeke Yewdall]

A small amount of gasoline in the biodiesel shouldn't affect it too
much.  Some of the crazy schemes for using unheated SVO call for
mixing it with 15% gasoline or such.  While I don't think this is
necessarily good for the diesel engine, the majority of the problems I
have heard of from doing this are not sufficiently dissolving the oil,
not problems with the gasoline component per se.

It also seems that gasoline should be separable from biodiesel by
distillation, because of the much lower vapor pressure of gasoline,
although I am not sure about that.

Z

On 1/26/06, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Jan, Wouldn't you expect that  500 ppm water would be picked up in any
 recovered ethanol, due to even a small amount of soap production?  also
 if the ethanol used is for automobile use, is it an  E-85 blend, ie, 15%
 gasoline?  If so I would think that the gasoline would partition into
 any biodiesel made from this alcohol source.  How would the gasoline
 impact the biodiesel?

 Jan Warnqvist wrote:
  Hello Bias Antonio,
  Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In
  order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high:
  ethanol min 99,5% pure and
  oil with a water content  500 ppm and
  a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ?
  The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the
  excess ethanol.
  Good luck to you
  AGERATEC AB
  Jan Warnqvist
  - Original Message -
  From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
 
 
  On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote:
 
 
   the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol
  for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is
  sold in bags of 25  kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua
  it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want
  know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH
 
  Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is
  difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by
  boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly
  make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH
  per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will
  probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your
  ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever.
  Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel.
 
  -K
 
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  messages):
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 --
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 Science is what we have learned about how to keep
 from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

[Jan Warnqvist]

Hello Bob,
yes, you are right, recovered ethanol will likely contain  500 ppm of
water. This ethanol can then possibly only be used in small portions for
forward production of ethyl esters. It is however important to find out the
purity of the recovered ethanol before any conclusions can be drawn. It is
also likely that a big part of the water content of the biodiesel will enter
the most polar phase (glycerol phase), which may make it possible to re-use
the ethanol.
It does not sound too thrilling to use E85 as an ethanol source. There are a
number of research projects that have used gasoline-contaning ethanol, and
this with production difficulties from time to time. Assuming that biodiesel
from E85 is produced, the actual gasoline content would be max 15% of the
esterified ethanol ,about 15% of 13-14% which makes max 2,1% in total
gasoline content in the biodiesel. This amount will not influence the
viscosity, nor the density severly. It is doubtful that it will effect the
cetane number or the material compability properties more than marginally.
However, if the ethanol is recovered, it is highly likeky to assume that
some of the gasoline will enter this phase instead of staying in the
biodiesel. The BD may still have an odour of gasoline though.

AGERATEC AB
Jan Warnqvist
- Original Message -
From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method


Jan, Wouldn't you expect that  500 ppm water would be picked up in any
recovered ethanol, due to even a small amount of soap production?  also
if the ethanol used is for automobile use, is it an  E-85 blend, ie, 15%
gasoline?  If so I would think that the gasoline would partition into
any biodiesel made from this alcohol source.  How would the gasoline
impact the biodiesel?

Jan Warnqvist wrote:
 Hello Bias Antonio,
 Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In
 order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high:
 ethanol min 99,5% pure and
 oil with a water content  500 ppm and
 a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ?
 The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the
 excess ethanol.
 Good luck to you
 AGERATEC AB
 Jan Warnqvist
 - Original Message -
 From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method


 On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote:


  the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol
 for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is
 sold in bags of 25  kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua
 it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want
 know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH

 Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is
 difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by
 boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly
 make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH
 per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will
 probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your
 ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever.
 Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel.

 -K

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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

[Derick Giorchino]

This is more a warning than a question. But many years ago I was told that
if you put Drano in a ping pong ball by use of a syringe then seal the hole.
Throw the ball in gasoline and run your ass off. The gas was supposed to
melt the ball and there was supposed to be a very big explosion. I never
tried this although I was young at the time, I was not that stupid. If this
is true gas in bio with lye have a negative effect. As I said this maybe a
myth but its worth checking on.
Good health. Derick 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:46 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

A small amount of gasoline in the biodiesel shouldn't affect it too
much.  Some of the crazy schemes for using unheated SVO call for
mixing it with 15% gasoline or such.  While I don't think this is
necessarily good for the diesel engine, the majority of the problems I
have heard of from doing this are not sufficiently dissolving the oil,
not problems with the gasoline component per se.

It also seems that gasoline should be separable from biodiesel by
distillation, because of the much lower vapor pressure of gasoline,
although I am not sure about that.

Z

On 1/26/06, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Jan, Wouldn't you expect that  500 ppm water would be picked up in any
 recovered ethanol, due to even a small amount of soap production?  also
 if the ethanol used is for automobile use, is it an  E-85 blend, ie, 15%
 gasoline?  If so I would think that the gasoline would partition into
 any biodiesel made from this alcohol source.  How would the gasoline
 impact the biodiesel?

 Jan Warnqvist wrote:
  Hello Bias Antonio,
  Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In
  order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high:
  ethanol min 99,5% pure and
  oil with a water content  500 ppm and
  a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ?
  The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the
  excess ethanol.
  Good luck to you
  AGERATEC AB
  Jan Warnqvist
  - Original Message -
  From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
 
 
  On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote:
 
 
   the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol
  for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is
  sold in bags of 25  kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua
  it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want
  know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH
 
  Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is
  difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by
  boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly
  make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH
  per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will
  probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your
  ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever.
  Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel.
 
  -K
 
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 Science is what we have learned about how to keep
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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

[Derick Giorchino]

Hi all has anyone tried distilling the ethanol through desiccant like they
use in air dryers on compressors and air brake systems?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jan Warnqvist
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 7:56 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

Hello Bias Antonio,
Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In
order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high:
ethanol min 99,5% pure and
oil with a water content  500 ppm and
a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ?
The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the
excess ethanol.
Good luck to you
AGERATEC AB
Jan Warnqvist
- Original Message -
From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method



 On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote:


   the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol
  for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is
  sold in bags of 25  kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua
  it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want
  know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH


 Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is
 difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by
 boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly
 make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH
 per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will
 probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your
 ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever.
 Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel.

 -K

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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

[Kenji James Fuse]

Hi Bob,

I often add about 0.5% gasoline to my oil before I begin the
transesterification process, usually in extremely humid or damp weather.
Not scientific at all, really, but the gasoline 'polishes' the used oil a
bit, and the benzene content seems to remedy the moisture content which
could result in a batch of glop soap. Keith Addison poo-poo's this,
probably for good reason, but it works for me. Only problem is I'm wary of
composting my glycerin when gasoline is added.

Kenji Fuse

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006, bob allen wrote:

 Jan, Wouldn't you expect that  500 ppm water would be picked up in any
 recovered ethanol, due to even a small amount of soap production?  also
 if the ethanol used is for automobile use, is it an  E-85 blend, ie, 15%
 gasoline?  If so I would think that the gasoline would partition into
 any biodiesel made from this alcohol source.  How would the gasoline
 impact the biodiesel?

 Jan Warnqvist wrote:
  Hello Bias Antonio,
  Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In
  order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high:
  ethanol min 99,5% pure and
  oil with a water content  500 ppm and
  a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ?
  The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the
  excess ethanol.
  Good luck to you
  AGERATEC AB
  Jan Warnqvist
  - Original Message -
  From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
 
 
  On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote:
 
 
   the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol
  for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is
  sold in bags of 25  kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua
  it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want
  know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH
 
  Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is
  difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by
  boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly
  make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH
  per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will
  probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your
  ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever.
  Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel.
 
  -K
 
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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

[Ken Provost]

On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote:


  the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol
 for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is
 sold in bags of 25  kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua
 it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want
 know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH


Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is
difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by
boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly
make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH
per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will
probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your
ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever.
Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel.

-K

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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol industry popping -was: California Ethanol Alcohol Transportation Fuels

[MH]

 After some digging in the Biofuel archives - 

 [Biofuel] US California Ethanol
 29 Sep 2004

 ETHANOL As a Transportation Fuel In California 
 http://www.energy.ca.gov/ethanol/index.html 

 As of January 1, 2004, California completed a transition from
 methyl tertiary butyl-ether (MTBE) to ethanol as a gasoline
 oxygenate additive. With most gasoline sold in the state
 presently containing 5.7 percent ethanol, California is
 now the largest ethanol fuel market in the United States.
 About one billion gallons of ethanol are expected to be
 used in the state's gasoline supply in 2004. 

 The Energy Commission continues to study the potential for
 ethanol fuel production and use as part of California's
 overall strategy to assure adequate transportation energy
 supplies and reduce dependence on petroleum. In addition to
 its use as a gasoline blending component, ethanol can also
 be used as E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) in flexible fuel
 vehicles being produced by automakers. 

 Most of California's current ethanol supply comes from the
 Midwest U.S. corn-based industry, with a small supply
 contribution from foreign imports. There are only two
 small producers of ethanol in California today; however,
 a number of projects for expanded in state ethanol
 production are under consideration.   [more]
 --- 

 Properties of Alcohol Transportation Fuels - was: [biofuel] Emissions of Neat 
Ethanol
 02 Nov 2003 

 Training On Fuel Ethanol
 http://www.state.hi.us/dbedt/ert/archive/wksp-ethtech.html

 PROPERTIES OF ALCOHOL TRANSPORTATION FUELS 
 Alcohol Fuels Reference Work
  http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/afrw.html  
   For additional references http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/afrw 
 Prepared for:
   Biofuels Systems Division
   Office of Alternative Fuels
   U.S. Department of Energy
 Prepared by:
   Fuels and Transportation Division 
 July 1991 

 PROPERTIES OF ALCOHOL
 TRANSPORTATION FUELS
 Alcohol Fuels Reference Work #1

 1-1  SECTION 1. Introduction
  1,900Kb PDF http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/afrw/afrw-01.pdf 

 2-1  SECTION 2. Basic Chemistry of Alcohol Fuels
  4,184Kb PDF http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/afrw/afrw-02.pdf 
 2-1Chemical Structure
 2-3Physical Properties of Alcohols

 3-1  SECTION 3. The Internal Combustion Engine
  4,668Kb PDF http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/afrw/afrw-03.pdf 
 3-2Engine Design
 3-8Operating Parameters
 3-17   Key Design Parameters for Alcohol Combustion

 4-1  SECTION 4. Volatility of Transportation Fuels
  3,469Kb PDF http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/afrw/afrw-04.pdf 
 4-2Reid Vapor Pressure
 4-6Distillation Curves
 4-11   Vapor/Liquid Ratio

 5-1  SECTION 5. Compatibility of Alcohols with Other Fuels in Blends
  3,050Kb PDF http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/afrw/afrw-05.pdf 
 5-2Solubility in Gasoline
 5-4Creation of Mixtures Having Different Properties than Constituent Fuels
 5-7Bonding with Water and Its Implications
 5-7Alcohol/Gasoline Separation
 5-10   Methods to Overcome Phase Separation

 6-1  SECTION 6. Engine and Vehicle Operation Issues
  3,292Kb PDF http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/afrw/afrw-06.pdf 
 6-2Low Ambient Temperature Starting
 6-6High Temperature Performance
 6-10   Vehicle Range

 7-1  SECTION 7. Cleaning and Corrosion Characteristics of Alcohol
  2,976Kb PDF http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/afrw/afrw-07.pdf 
 7-2Solvent Characteristics of Alcohols and Alcohol Blends
 7-2Influence on the Combustion Chamber
 7-2Influence of Alcohols on Various Materials
 7-4Effects of Alcohols on Various Materials
 7-5Influence on Fuel Distribution System
 7-6Vehicle Failures
 7-9Additives Required to Prevent Corrosion

 8-1  SECTION 8. New Directions for Reformulating Alcohols Fuels
  to Overcome Operational Problems
  2,450Kb PDF http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/afrw/afrw-08.pdf 
 8-2Cetane Number
 8-5Miscibility with Water and Hydrocarbon Fuels
 8-5Electric Conductivity and Oxygen Content
 8-6Viscosity
 8-6Cold Weather Startability
 8-7Conclusion

 9-1  SECTION 9. Ethyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (ETBE)
  3,109Kb PDF http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/afrw/afrw-09.pdf 
 9-1Gasoline-related Properties
 9-4Performance
 9-7Production Process Technology
 9-12   Supplies and Commercialization
 9-13   Conclusions

 10-1 SECTION 10. Health and Safety Issues
  2,201Kb PDF http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/afrw/afrw-10.pdf 
 10-1   Toxicity
 10-4   Leaks and Spills in Water
 10-5   Leaks and Spills on Land
 10-6   Safety

 A-1  GLOSSARY 
  889Kb PDF http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/afrw/afrw-glo.pdf 
 B-1  BIBLIOGRAPHY 
  2,605Kb PDF http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/afrw/afrw-bib.pdf 

 Section 1
 INTRODUCTION
 During the mid and late i980s, research on alcohol fuels
 undertaken in the United States, Japan, and Europe expanded
 greatly.  This research has covered the entire alcohol production,
 distribution and utilization 

Re: [Biofuel] ethanol industry popping

[John Hayes]

Greg Gordon of the Star Tribute wrote:
  Minnesota is the lone state with a 10 percent ethanol mandate, though
  Hawaii and Montana have enacted similar mandates that have yet to take 
 effect.
  Minnesota will require 20 percent ethanol content in 2013.

Whatchu talking about Willis? New York and Connecticut both require E10 
at the pump as part of their MTBE ban. I think, but can't say for sure, 
that Colorado and California also require E10 as a result of their MTBE 
bans.

jh



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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol industry popping

[MH]

 Statewide or large metropolitan areas ? 

 Theres talk in Iowa, Wisconsin (Illinois - I think)
 of a statewide E10 mandate. 

 Whatchu talking about Willis? New York and Connecticut both require E10
 at the pump as part of their MTBE ban. I think, but can't say for sure,
 that Colorado and California also require E10 as a result of their MTBE
 bans.
 jh

  Greg Gordon of the Star Tribute wrote:
   Minnesota is the lone state with a 10 percent ethanol mandate, though
   Hawaii and Montana have enacted similar mandates that have yet to take 
  effect.
   Minnesota will require 20 percent ethanol content in 2013.

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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol distillation

[Kenji James Fuse]

Getting off-topic a bit...

Any concerns about consistently drinking distilled water? I've heard it
can leach minerals from the body. A friend of mine uses a water
distiller so I'd like to know more.

Kenji


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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol distillation

[John Hayes]

Kenji James Fuse wrote:
 Getting off-topic a bit...
 
 Any concerns about consistently drinking distilled water? I've heard it
 can leach minerals from the body. A friend of mine uses a water
 distiller so I'd like to know more.
 
 Kenji

Search the archives. It's in there.  Short version is: If you get your 
energy from food rather than photosynthesis, you don't really have much 
to worry about.

jh

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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol distillation

[Alan Petrillo]

Jonathan Schearer wrote:

 I have a question for the group.  Would a water distiller like the kind 
 found at www.waterdistiller.com http://www.waterdistiller.com be 
 similar to an alcohol still?  Usually an alcohol still has a column and 
 uses water as the coolant for the condenser.  These water distillers use 
 a coil that is air cooled. 

It's been done.

http://www.brewhaus.com/EasyStill.htm

As far as their claim of 90% distillation on 2 passes, well, I'll 
believe that when I see it.

Brewhaus says their only modifications are elimination of the chlorine 
release valve, and installation of a lower power heating element.  What 
they're describing is just the lower power version of the standard water 
distiller.  I have a feeling they didn't even change the thermal cutout 
to a lower temperature version.  They talk it up like there are all 
kinds of mods to it, but it looks like a standard water distiller to me.

My feeling is to give it a try and see what happens.  Operate it 
-=*OUTDOORS*=-, have a fire extinguisher handy, do the maths so you know 
what to expect, and give it a shot.

If it doesn't work then you'll only be out the ~$129 for the distiller, 
and if it doesn't burn up then you'll have a nice little water distiller.

I have one of these little distillers, and I use it every day for 
distilling water.  It's the only way I can make the lousy, chloramine 
laden St. Petersburg tap water fit to drink.


AP


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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol distillation

[Pannirselvam P.V]

Helow Jonathan
 
 Water distillation is mainly concerned with evaporation and then condensation water vapor evaporated, where as alcohol still need to selectively seperate low volatile etanol using heat ,as well as can condense selectively the ethanol and hence need 
column.Thus water distiller can be mainly smalltank type ,less condensation problem ,where as ethanol still is column.Hence tey need to be diffrent in design , eventhouh they all envolve similar process as you outlined. We here do like the design for small scale equipment for sustainable biofuel process 
developments.using air as coolant and then recover the energy for drying can be possible ,but yet taht type of noval distillation units need to evolved .You can try one taht can save the huge energy cost of ethanol as one need 5 Kg of steam for every 1 l of ethanol.


sd
Pannirselvam P.V
On 11/23/05, Jonathan Schearer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I have a question for the group. Would a water distiller like the kind found at www.waterdistiller.com
 be similar to an alcohol still? Usually an alcohol still has a column and uses water as the coolant for the condenser. These water distillers use a coil that is air cooled. 


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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol distillation

[Ken Riznyk]

Don't think so. The purpose of distilling alcohol is
usually to separate it from water. The boiling point
of alcohol is close to that of water so the
temperature of the vessel and cooling column is
critical. When water is distilled it is usually
separated from salts and other contaminants. The
temperature is not critical for that process.
Ken

--- Jonathan Schearer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 I have a question for the group.  Would a water
 distiller like the kind found at
 www.waterdistiller.com be similar to an alcohol
 still?  Usually an alcohol still has a column and
 uses water as the coolant for the condenser.  These
 water distillers use a coil that is air cooled.  
 
   
 -
  Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million
 songs. Try it free.
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 archives (50,000 messages):

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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol from cabbage

[bob allen]

find a table of nutrition and add up the grams of sugar and carbohydrate 
present.  Those are the fermentable materials.  (the carbohydrate 
portion will require an enzyme, maltase, to make into fermentable sugars)

John Hall wrote:
 I have been trying to find out what is best used for fermenting cabbage for
 ethanol production.  Not much out there on the web.  Anyone have a
 suggestion?  The only thing I've found so far is for producing sauerkraut
 and ethanol production is minimal using those enzymes.
 
 Why cabbage?  Because there are 40 acres of cabbage in front of and to the
 south of my house.  About half the cabbage is actually picked for market due
 to size etc. and the rest rots in the field over the winter.  If ethanol can
 be produced from what's left then so much the better.
 
 Thanks.
 
 Regards;
 John
 
 
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Science is what we have learned about how to keep
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol from cabbage

[Fred Finch]

Personally I have found cabbage to be especially useful in methane production. 

Not very useable but fun none the less.

fredOn 10/21/05, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
find a table of nutrition and add up the grams of sugar and carbohydratepresent.Those are the fermentable materials.(the carbohydrateportion will require an enzyme, maltase, to make into fermentable sugars)
John Hall wrote: I have been trying to find out what is best used for fermenting cabbage for ethanol production.Not much out there on the web.Anyone have a suggestion?The only thing I've found so far is for producing sauerkraut
 and ethanol production is minimal using those enzymes. Why cabbage?Because there are 40 acres of cabbage in front of and to the south of my house.About half the cabbage is actually picked for market due
 to size etc. and the rest rots in the field over the winter.If ethanol can be produced from what's left then so much the better. Thanks. Regards; John
 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol from cabbage

[Keith Addison]

I have been trying to find out what is best used for fermenting cabbage for
ethanol production.  Not much out there on the web.  Anyone have a
suggestion?  The only thing I've found so far is for producing sauerkraut
and ethanol production is minimal using those enzymes.

Why cabbage?  Because there are 40 acres of cabbage in front of and to the
south of my house.  About half the cabbage is actually picked for market due
to size etc. and the rest rots in the field over the winter.  If ethanol can
be produced from what's left then so much the better.

Thanks.

Regards;
John

It's not a starch or a sugar crop, but it might depend on the quality 
of the cabbage. Brix readings for cabbage range from 6% sugar for a 
poor-quality cabbage (but it might be much less) to 12% for an 
excellent one, which is rare. You could try juicing the cabbages and 
fermenting the juice. In which case this might help:

The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual_ToC.html

Chapter 6 PROCESSING STEPS SPECIFIC TO SACCHARINE MATERIALS
General Description
Extraction

Chapter 10 INDIVIDUAL RAW MATERIALS
Sugar/Starch Content vs Alcohol
Saccharine Materials
Fruits
Molasses
Cane Sorghum
Sugar Beets
Sugar Corn Wastes

Otherwise you could feed them to chickens or something and feed the 
chicken manure to a biodigester.

HTH, best wishes

Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol from Sorgum please

[Andrew Lowe]

Mark Klein wrote:
 
  
[snip]
...
...
[snip]

 
 
 
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 No virus found in this incoming message.
 Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
 Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 28/07/2005


WTF is this? I thought the list prevented idiocy such as sending 1.4MB 
HTML emails to the thousand or so people who are on this list. Keith, 
can the good old days of text and text only be reintroduced so that 
abuse such as this is not repeated?

If someone wishes to distribute something such as this, then place it 
on a web site somewhere and then post the URL to the list so that people 
can then go and view it at their leisure.

Please note that I'm not commenting on the value of the information 
that was sent, just the way that it was sent.

Regards,
Andrew Lowe

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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol from Sorgum please

[Keith Addison]

Mark Klein wrote:
 
 
[snip]
...
...
[snip]

WTF is this? I thought the list prevented idiocy such as sending 1.4MB
HTML emails to the thousand or so people who are on this list.

A LOT more people than that Andrew.

Keith,
can the good old days of text and text only be reintroduced so that
abuse such as this is not repeated?

Well, I'm a little puzzled. It's a text-only list and has been for a 
very long time, but there are complexities I don't understand, and 
every now and then some html gets through, such as this case.

What puzzles me more is that this message you're replying to is more 
than two months old, it's dealt with and settled long ago. Members 
regularly get told by listadmin to reset their emailer default to 
ASCII plain-text. Guess which well-known email program has the 
default set to html? No prizes, too easy.

Best wishes

Keith


   If someone wishes to distribute something such as this, then place it
on a web site somewhere and then post the URL to the list so that people
can then go and view it at their leisure.

   Please note that I'm not commenting on the value of the information
that was sent, just the way that it was sent.

   Regards,
   Andrew Lowe


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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

[Keith Addison]

Hello Bob

Bob Allen wrote:

Howdy Tom, I am surprised that the method works at all.  There is a 
fundamental problem with the pKa's of ethanol and methanol.  the 
equilibrium
   KOH + EtOH --  KOEt + H2O
favors the left side of the equasion
whereas for methanol
KOH + MeOH  ---  KOMe + H2O
favors the right side.

   The only way I know it would work is if you generate the KOEt via 
an alternative route as I suggested before.  Use K, KH, or dry the 
ethoxide mixture via azotropic distillation.

I'd much like to know more about why ethyl esters is so difficult, 
but people do get it to work. How are they getting round this problem?

Here's the ethyl esters section of our website:

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#ethylester
Make your own biodiesel - page 2: Ethyl esters -- making ethanol biodiesel

There are links there to four studies in the Biofuels Library. The 
first one is from the report Tom is using:

Optimization of a Batch Type Ethyl Ester Process -- Charles Peterson 
et al., University of Idaho, 1996
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethyl_esters.html

Production and Testing of Ethyl and Methyl Esters, University of 
Idaho, Dec 1994.
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/EthylMethylEsters.html

Transesterification Process to Manufacture Ethyl Ester of Rape Oil, 
University of Idaho (Acrobat file, 672Kb)
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/EthylEsterofRapeOil.pdf

Making and Testing a Biodiesel Fuel Made From Ethanol and Waste 
French-Fry Oil, University of Idaho (Acrobat file, 2.4Mb)
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/EthylWVO.pdf

Could you shed any light on how they're getting round the equilibrium problem?

Best wishes

Keith


Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Bob,

I use density to determine the purity of the ethanol and a mass 
balance to check on my 3A regeneration technique. I have a fairly 
good Metler balance (PR 203) that reads to the third decimal place 
so should be accurate to the second. The procedure I'm trying to 
duplicate is the one on JTF.

Ethyl Ester Process Scale-up and Biodegradability of Biodiesel

FINAL REPORT, No. 303, November 1996

For the United States Department of Agriculture, Cooperative State 
Research Service, Cooperative Agreement No. 93-COOP-1-8627

University of Idaho, College of Agriculture, the University of Idaho.

Is another method more reliable?



Tom Irwin





From: bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:17:27 -0300
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

Tom, two questions, 1. how do you know the ethanol is being dried? 
and 2. what procedure are you
using for bioD from ethanol?
Tom Irwin wrote:
  Hi Bob and all,
 
  I seem to be having fairly good success drying 95% ethanol with 3A
  molecular sieve. I still have horrible problems making BioD with 100%
  ethanol (purchased)but I´m still working on it.
 
  Tom Irwin
 
  
  *From:* bob allen 
[mailto:javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED])[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  *To:* 
javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org)[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
nablelists.org
  *Sent:* Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:23:08 -0300
  *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
 
  It is not easy, due to the fact that ethoxide, can't be made by the
  combination of sodium or potassium hydroxide and ethanol, as one does
  with base plus methanol to form methoxide. It can be done however via
  alternative ways of making the ethoxide:
 
  K + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + 1/2 H2
 
  KH + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + H2
 
  (don't try this at home- wildly flammable materials involved)
 
 
  or for someone with good laboratory skills:
 
  combine EtOH (absolute) + KOH, then distill off 95% Ethanol/5% water
  azeotrope to remove water, shifting the equilibrium to form the
  ethoxide
  ion.
 
 
  The problem is that you remove a lot of ethanol to get a small amt of
  water out. (there are ways to recover absolute ethanol via a ternary
  azeotrope, but I seriously doubt if it is either cost or energy
  effective.
 
 
 
  Kuba-tlen wrote:
   Does anybody know how to do a biofuel usin ethanol? I mean 92%
  ethanol,
   not dry ethanol. I've read that it is possible. O maybe somebody
  knows
   how to easily dry ethanol?
--


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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

[bob allen]

Hi Kieth,

Keith Addison wrote:
 Hello Bob
 
   snip



 
 I'd much like to know more about why ethyl esters is so difficult, 
 but people do get it to work. How are they getting round this problem?


the short answer is I don't know. I've communicating with those having 
success, and read the papers of successful procedures.  My answer as to 
why the reaction shouldn't work is obviously wrong.  There is more to be 
considered than the simple equilibrium I wrote about.  Particularly, 
there is an issue of reactivity.  Ethoxide, albeit present at lower 
concentrations than hydroxide, is more reactive (nucleophilic). These 
properties, concentration and reactivity offset, so the reaction 
proceeds.  I still think yields are lower even under the best of 
circumstances with ethanol than methanol.


Overall the production of ethyl esters seems to require a lot more 
precision than making methyl esters.  I made one attempt with ethyl 
ester synthesis, got no separation initially (base catalyzed method), 
and gave it up. My attention now is simply to train students in lab 
scale preparations and next week start a series of community workshops.


I too would like to hear more from successful ethyl ester producers as 
to the the differences in methyl and ethyl ester preparation, 'cause 
right now I am about as clueless as anyone else.





 Here's the ethyl esters section of our website:
 
 http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#ethylester
 Make your own biodiesel - page 2: Ethyl esters -- making ethanol biodiesel
 
 There are links there to four studies in the Biofuels Library. The 
 first one is from the report Tom is using:
 
 Optimization of a Batch Type Ethyl Ester Process -- Charles Peterson 
 et al., University of Idaho, 1996
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethyl_esters.html
 
 Production and Testing of Ethyl and Methyl Esters, University of 
 Idaho, Dec 1994.
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/EthylMethylEsters.html
 
 Transesterification Process to Manufacture Ethyl Ester of Rape Oil, 
 University of Idaho (Acrobat file, 672Kb)
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/EthylEsterofRapeOil.pdf
 
 Making and Testing a Biodiesel Fuel Made From Ethanol and Waste 
 French-Fry Oil, University of Idaho (Acrobat file, 2.4Mb)
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/EthylWVO.pdf
 
 Could you shed any light on how they're getting round the equilibrium problem?
 
 Best wishes
 
 Keith
 
 
 
Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Bob,

I use density to determine the purity of the ethanol and a mass 
balance to check on my 3A regeneration technique. I have a fairly 
good Metler balance (PR 203) that reads to the third decimal place 
so should be accurate to the second. The procedure I'm trying to 
duplicate is the one on JTF.

Ethyl Ester Process Scale-up and Biodegradability of Biodiesel

FINAL REPORT, No. 303, November 1996

For the United States Department of Agriculture, Cooperative State 
Research Service, Cooperative Agreement No. 93-COOP-1-8627

University of Idaho, College of Agriculture, the University of Idaho.

Is another method more reliable?



Tom Irwin





From: bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:17:27 -0300
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

Tom, two questions, 1. how do you know the ethanol is being dried? 
and 2. what procedure are you
using for bioD from ethanol?
Tom Irwin wrote:

Hi Bob and all,

I seem to be having fairly good success drying 95% ethanol with 3A
molecular sieve. I still have horrible problems making BioD with 100%
ethanol (purchased)but I´m still working on it.

Tom Irwin


*From:* bob allen 

[mailto:javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED])[EMAIL PROTECTED]

*To:* 

javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org)[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
nablelists.org

*Sent:* Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:23:08 -0300
*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

It is not easy, due to the fact that ethoxide, can't be made by the
combination of sodium or potassium hydroxide and ethanol, as one does
with base plus methanol to form methoxide. It can be done however via
alternative ways of making the ethoxide:

K + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + 1/2 H2

KH + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + H2

(don't try this at home- wildly flammable materials involved)


or for someone with good laboratory skills:

combine EtOH (absolute) + KOH, then distill off 95% Ethanol/5% water
azeotrope to remove water, shifting the equilibrium to form the
ethoxide
ion.


The problem is that you remove a lot of ethanol to get a small amt of
water out. (there are ways to recover absolute ethanol via a ternary
azeotrope, but I seriously doubt if it is either cost or energy
effective.



Kuba-tlen wrote:

Does anybody know how to do a biofuel usin ethanol? I mean 92%

ethanol,

not dry ethanol. I've read that it is possible. O maybe somebody

knows

how to easily dry ethanol

Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

[bob allen]

Howdy Tom, I am surprised that the method works at all.  There is a 
fundamental problem with the pKa's of ethanol and methanol.  the 
equilibrium

   KOH + EtOH --  KOEt + H2O

favors the left side of the equasion

whereas for methanol

KOH + MeOH  ---  KOMe + H2O

favors the right side.


   The only way I know it would work is if you generate the KOEt via an 
alternative route as I suggested before.  Use K, KH, or dry the ethoxide 
mixture via azotropic distillation.


Tom Irwin wrote:
 Hi Bob,
  
 I use density to determine the purity of the ethanol and a mass balance 
 to check on my 3A regeneration technique. I have a fairly good Metler 
 balance (PR 203) that reads to the third decimal place so should be 
 accurate to the second. The procedure I'm trying to duplicate is the one 
 on JTF.
  
 *Ethyl Ester Process Scale-up and Biodegradability of Biodiesel*
 
 FINAL REPORT, No. 303, November 1996
 
 For the United States Department of Agriculture, Cooperative State 
 Research Service, Cooperative Agreement No. 93-COOP-1-8627
 
 University of Idaho, College of Agriculture, the University of Idaho.
 
 Is another method more reliable?
 
  
 
 Tom Irwin 
 
  
  
 
 
 *From:* bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 *Sent:* Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:17:27 -0300
 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
 
 Tom, two questions, 1. how do you know the ethanol is being dried?
 and 2. what procedure are you
 using for bioD from ethanol?
 Tom Irwin wrote:
   Hi Bob and all,
  
   I seem to be having fairly good success drying 95% ethanol with 3A
   molecular sieve. I still have horrible problems making BioD with
 100%
   ethanol (purchased)but I´m still working on it.
  
   Tom Irwin
  
  
 
   *From:* bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED])]
   *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org)
   *Sent:* Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:23:08 -0300
   *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
  
   It is not easy, due to the fact that ethoxide, can't be made by the
   combination of sodium or potassium hydroxide and ethanol, as one does
   with base plus methanol to form methoxide. It can be done however via
   alternative ways of making the ethoxide:
  
   K + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + 1/2 H2
  
   KH + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + H2
  
   (don't try this at home- wildly flammable materials involved)
  
  
   or for someone with good laboratory skills:
  
   combine EtOH (absolute) + KOH, then distill off 95% Ethanol/5% water
   azeotrope to remove water, shifting the equilibrium to form the
   ethoxide
   ion.
  
  
   The problem is that you remove a lot of ethanol to get a small amt of
   water out. (there are ways to recover absolute ethanol via a ternary
   azeotrope, but I seriously doubt if it is either cost or energy
   effective.
  
  
  
   Kuba-tlen wrote:
Does anybody know how to do a biofuel usin ethanol? I mean 92%
   ethanol,
not dry ethanol. I've read that it is possible. O maybe somebody
   knows
how to easily dry ethanol?
   
   
   
  
 
   
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   (50,000 messages):
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   --
   Bob Allen
   http://ozarker.org/bob
  
   Science is what we have learned about how to keep
   from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman
  
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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

[Tom Irwin]

Hi Ken,

Yes, I've read that but I'm trying to avoid using anything petro based. Yeah, I know I'm being a purist but I have some spare time.

Thanks,

Tom


From: Ken Provost [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:06:46 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method--- Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: I still have horrible problems making BioD with 100% ethanol (purchased)but I'm still working on it.  You probly know this already, but adding even 10-15%methanol to the anhydrous ethanol makes the reactiongo markedly better.-K__ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

[Tom Irwin]

Hi Bob,

I use density to determine the purity of the ethanol and a mass balance to check on my 3A regeneration technique. I have a fairly good Metler balance (PR 203) that reads to the third decimal place so should be accurate to the second. The procedure I'm trying to duplicate is the one on JTF. 

Ethyl Ester Process Scale-up and Biodegradability of Biodiesel"
FINAL REPORT, No. 303, November 1996For the United States Department of Agriculture, Cooperative State Research Service, Cooperative Agreement No. 93-COOP-1-8627University of Idaho, College of Agriculture, the University of Idaho.
Is another method more reliable?

Tom Irwin




From: bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:17:27 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol methodTom, two questions, 1. how do you know the ethanol is being dried? and 2. what procedure are you using for bioD from ethanol?Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Bob and all,  I seem to be having fairly good success drying 95% ethanol with 3A  molecular sieve. I still have horrible problems making BioD with 100%  ethanol (purchased)but I´m still working on it.  Tom Irwin   *From:* bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:23:08 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method  It is not easy, due to the fact that ethoxide, can't be made by the combination of sodium or potassium hydroxide and ethanol, as one does with base plus methanol to form methoxide. It can be done however via alternative ways of making the ethoxide:  K + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + 1/2 H2  KH + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + H2  (don't try this at home- wildly flammable materials involved)   or for someone with good laboratory skills:  combine EtOH (absolute) + KOH, then distill off 95% Ethanol/5% water azeotrope to remove water, shifting the equilibrium to form the ethoxide ion.   The problem is that you remove a lot of ethanol to get a small amt of water out. (there are ways to recover absolute ethanol via a ternary azeotrope, but I seriously doubt if it is either cost or energy effective.Kuba-tlen wrote:  Does anybody know how to do a biofuel usin ethanol? I mean 92% ethanol,  not dry ethanol. I've read that it is possible. O maybe somebody knows  how to easily dry ethanol?   ___  Biofuel mailing list  Biofuel@sustainablelists.org <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","Biofuel@sustainablelists.org")>  http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org   Biofuel at Journey to Forever:  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html   Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):  http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/--  Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob  "Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman  ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","Biofuel@sustainablelists.org")> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org  Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html  Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/    ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org  Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html  Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/  Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.10.19/92 - Release Date: 9/7/2005-- Bob Allenhttp://ozarker.org/bob"Science is what we have learned about how to keepfrom fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



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Search the combi

Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

[bob allen]

It is not easy, due to the fact that ethoxide, can't be made by the 
combination of sodium or potassium hydroxide and ethanol, as one does 
with base plus methanol to form methoxide.  It can be done however via 
alternative ways of making the ethoxide:

K + EtOH ---   K(+) (-)OEt + 1/2 H2

KH  + EtOH  --- K(+)  (-)OEt + H2

   (don't try this at home- wildly flammable materials involved)


or for someone with good laboratory skills:

combine EtOH (absolute) + KOH, then distill off 95% Ethanol/5% water 
azeotrope to remove water, shifting the equilibrium to form the ethoxide 
ion.


The problem is that you remove a lot of ethanol to get a small amt of 
water out.  (there are ways to recover absolute ethanol via a ternary 
azeotrope, but I seriously doubt if it is either cost or energy effective.



Kuba-tlen wrote:
 Does anybody know how to do a biofuel usin ethanol? I mean 92% ethanol, 
 not dry ethanol. I've read that it is possible. O maybe somebody knows 
 how to easily dry ethanol?
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

[Tom Irwin]

Hi Bob and all,

I seem to be having fairly good success drying 95% ethanol with 3A molecular sieve. I still have horrible problems making BioD with 100% ethanol (purchased)but I´m still working on it.

Tom Irwin


From: bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:23:08 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol methodIt is not easy, due to the fact that ethoxide, can't be made by the combination of sodium or potassium hydroxide and ethanol, as one does with base plus methanol to form methoxide. It can be done however via alternative ways of making the ethoxide:K + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + 1/2 H2KH + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + H2(don't try this at home- wildly flammable materials involved)or for someone with good laboratory skills:combine EtOH (absolute) + KOH, then distill off 95% Ethanol/5% water azeotrope to remove water, shifting the equilibrium to form the ethoxide ion.The problem is that you remove a lot of ethanol to get a small amt of water out. (there are ways to recover absolute ethanol via a ternary azeotrope, but I seriously doubt if it is either cost or energy effective.Kuba-tlen wrote: Does anybody know how to do a biofuel usin ethanol? I mean 92% ethanol,  not dry ethanol. I've read that it is possible. O maybe somebody knows  how to easily dry ethanol?     ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org  Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html  Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allenhttp://ozarker.org/bob"Science is what we have learned about how to keepfrom fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method

[bob allen]

Tom, two questions, 1. how do you know the ethanol is being dried?  and 2. what 
procedure are you 
using for bioD from ethanol?
Tom Irwin wrote:
 Hi Bob and all,
  
 I seem to be having fairly good success drying 95% ethanol with 3A 
 molecular sieve. I still have horrible problems making BioD with 100% 
 ethanol (purchased)but I´m still working on it.
  
 Tom Irwin
 
 
 *From:* bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 *Sent:* Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:23:08 -0300
 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
 
 It is not easy, due to the fact that ethoxide, can't be made by the
 combination of sodium or potassium hydroxide and ethanol, as one does
 with base plus methanol to form methoxide. It can be done however via
 alternative ways of making the ethoxide:
 
 K + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + 1/2 H2
 
 KH + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + H2
 
 (don't try this at home- wildly flammable materials involved)
 
 
 or for someone with good laboratory skills:
 
 combine EtOH (absolute) + KOH, then distill off 95% Ethanol/5% water
 azeotrope to remove water, shifting the equilibrium to form the
 ethoxide
 ion.
 
 
 The problem is that you remove a lot of ethanol to get a small amt of
 water out. (there are ways to recover absolute ethanol via a ternary
 azeotrope, but I seriously doubt if it is either cost or energy
 effective.
 
 
 
 Kuba-tlen wrote:
   Does anybody know how to do a biofuel usin ethanol? I mean 92%
 ethanol,
   not dry ethanol. I've read that it is possible. O maybe somebody
 knows
   how to easily dry ethanol?
  
  
  
 
  
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 (50,000 messages):
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 http://ozarker.org/bob
 
 Science is what we have learned about how to keep
 from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman
 
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 messages):
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 Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
 Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
 Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.10.19/92 - Release Date: 9/7/2005


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Science is what we have learned about how to keep
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