Re: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
RE: #1. Actually Spacewar was the first computer game...and it was an action game. But yes, computer adventure came before computer RPG. I'm not sure that is of any significance; however, since several other genres (besides action and strategy) also came after Adventure. #2. Fantasy is not a computer-game-genre-specific characteristic. Adventures can be fantasy, sci-fi, noir, reality-based, etc. Same with RPGs. The real differentiator between video game genres should be the essence of what makes it a fun game: - For an Adventure game, it is problem/puzzle solving. I contend that Adventure games are a sub-genre of puzzle games. Without problem/puzzle solving in an adventure game, you would have no game. You would have a story (even if that was fun, it wouldn't be a game). - For RPGs, it is character growth and item gathering. This makes it distinct and not a sub-genre. A game can have this as its only focus and be fun. See Telengard, Rogue, Temple of Apshai, NetHack, etc. Hugh ---Original Message--- From: Jim Leonard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: 01/22/03 03:26 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1 > > Hugh and Edward: You've presented some strong arguments and I'm going to have to think about them before coming up with a rebuttal. But first let me pose some situations and questions: 1. Adventure was the first computer game, yes? It was not an RPG. So computer adventure games came before computer RPGs, right? 2. The Adventure genre encompasses *all* fantasy-style gaming. So RPG fits into it, yes? If not, why? #2 is the dealbreaker. -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ > -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
> Too many classifications and you fall into the trap of gamedex.com. They have > over 200 categories, which makes their classification system ludicrous. Just > one look: > > Action Advenuture > Cartoonish Action Adventure > Fantasy Action Adventure > Sci-fi Action Adventure > Horror Action Adventure > Action Hero Adventure > Super Hero Advenutre > Spy Action Adventure > > ..and you know they're beyond help. Hopefully I don't need to explain why > this is a Very Bad Idea(tm). The distinctions you chose here as examples all go to the genre of the story, which most people would agree is rather superflous in most cases, because games are about the gameplay mechanics (is there really that much of a difference in the gameplay of the SSI Buck Rogers game and any of their Gold Box D&D titles? The setting may be different but the game stays the same.) While getting into too many categories, especially what story genre's are concerned is an issue, using such overly broad categories to describe differing game play is no help either. And let's face it the use of sub-genre's is just more categories without saying as much. I understand the need to find a limited amount of categories for classification purposes, but because these categories need to break down the interaction that the game allows with the world being generated on the computer, and the many ways that that interaction can be achieved, IMHO I feel that such a broad approach is insufficient. I don't see why adding a few extra categories would throw everything into chaos, especially when those new categories would better describe the interface and nature of gameplay, which is what brings people to the game. and define what they like (think of the folks who hated text adventures but loved Sierra games (I knew a lot of those)). Karl Kuras -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Jim Leonard schrieb: > > The party aspect is indeed a strong element of RPGs. I neglected to say this > in our RPG genre description, so I'll add it now. I won't limit RPGs to > party-based games, but it should indeed be noted that *most* RPGs are > party-based. See, discussion does bring about change :-) Well, yes ;-) I'd also like to point out that I didn't mean to criticize your system, I was originally only contemplating the general changes genres went through in the course of time. > But since all RPGs are adventures, it remains a subgenre in our system. I would still have to disagree, mostly for the same reasons as stated by Hugh and Edward. I found these two snippets at http://www.rickadams.org/adventure/a_history.html "Unfortunately, it was during this period that Crowther's marriage ended. Feeling estranged from his two daughters and wanting to be closer to them, he decided to write a program that they might enjoy: a simulation of his cave explorations that also contained elements of his fantasy roleplaying. He was intrigued by the idea of trying a computer-mediated version of the game." "Influenced by Tolkien's writing, Woods added touches such as a troll, elves, and a volcano." So yes, true, Adventure had a fantasy background and still wasn't a RPG in the sense we define them now, meaning character development and having a party. But those most likely were missing because they were too complicated for Crowther and Woods to make them work at the time. You could now argue that the adventure genre predated the RPG genre because of the limitations set by early computers, but IMHO it wouldn't do the original intentions of Adventures's creators justice. And you should also take into account that although Lebling and Blank used Adventure and D&D as inspiration for Zork, they quickly spread the themes of their adventure games to Science-Fiction and Mystery, while RPGs just about always stayed with fantasy as their home harbor. > > Moby categorizes Bard's Tale as "Adventure, 1st-Person Perspective, > > Medieval Fantasy, Role-Playing (RPG)," and Ultima IV as "Adventure, > > Top-Down, Medieval Fantasy, Role-Playing (RPG)" but IMHO both are just > > RPGs. > > But both are also adventures with a medieval fantasy theme, so I don't see > your point...? Maybe the medieval fantasy theme is integral to an RPG but not to an adventure? As I said above, there are exceptions, like Wasteland and Fallout, but give people a dragon and some castles, a party and character development and they say, it's an RPG. I think these are pretty distinctive features, even if RPGs had evolved from adventures. > So what is relevant today (as opposed to two decades ago) should influence our > system? We created the system to categorize all games from all time periods. I think that is where a problem might be. It could be next to impossible to categorize every game from 30 years of development in a way that does it justice, without losing track in a plethora of subgenres. I just clicked my way through to "A Final Unity" and came up with "Adventure, Simulation, 3rd-Person Perspective, Puzzle-Solving, Sci-Fi / Futuristic, Licensed Title" as genres. That is pretty confusing, isn't it? Perhaps it would suffice to state a title's main genres under genre (in this case Adventure and Simulation) and the rest as keywords. It would give your main genres a much more distinctive notion. Yould could then also set up a search engine for the site/the main genres that lets users choose what keywords they want to use in a search. The results could list the titles that apply to the chosen keywords. As you see, I don't really have to criticize the system you set up, anyway, ecxepting the lack of RPGs as a main genre, but only its organization. > Also, "1st-person perspective" definitely serves as a distinction -- take > Wizardry (1st) verses Fallout (3rd). Some people prefer 1st to feel more > immersed in their surroundings. I think your scope isn't big enough. The perspective might be a point of personal preference and should therefore be mentioned, but perhaps not as a subgenre. The first person perspective games that came out after the initial wave of shooters that created the FPS genre had the problem of being understood as shooters, just because of the perspective. I remember discussions about Deus Ex where people complained the lack of action "for a FPS," not recognizing the game was not meant as one. Players just took the perspective as denominator for a genre, where in reality the perspective had much earlier started to become independent from a certain style of game. Taking into account what I above said about keywords, you might include first and third person perspective as keywords, so people who do make this a decisive factor for the games they want to play can still find them. Marco -- This message was sent to you because you are cu
RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
I have a question: why do I get these messages twice? ;) Also, when is MobyGames going to add the Apple II category? - John > -Original Message- > From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 5:27 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1 > > > Hugh and Edward: > > You've presented some strong arguments and I'm going to have > to think about them before coming up with a rebuttal. But > first let me pose some situations and questions: > > 1. Adventure was the first computer game, yes? It was not an > RPG. So computer adventure games came before computer RPGs, right? > > 2. The Adventure genre encompasses *all* fantasy-style > gaming. So RPG fits into it, yes? If not, why? > > #2 is the dealbreaker. > -- > http://www.MobyGames.com/ > The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. > > -- > This message was sent to you because you are currently > subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, > send mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe > swcollect' Archives are available at: > http://www.mail-> [EMAIL PROTECTED]/ > -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Hugh and Edward: You've presented some strong arguments and I'm going to have to think about them before coming up with a rebuttal. But first let me pose some situations and questions: 1. Adventure was the first computer game, yes? It was not an RPG. So computer adventure games came before computer RPGs, right? 2. The Adventure genre encompasses *all* fantasy-style gaming. So RPG fits into it, yes? If not, why? #2 is the dealbreaker. -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 02:35 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: Edward Franks wrote: [Snip] I completely disagree. All RPGs are adventures, but not all adventures are RPGs; because of this, RPG is a subgenre in our system. Before you debate further, here is our definition of Adventure (a main genre) and RPG (a subgenre). Please read them over before responding. You have the cart before the horse. Adventure games descended from pen-n-paper RPGs, specifically, D&D. Adventure, the grandfather of adventure game has its roots in D&D. Computer RPGs are attempts at recreating the original pen-n-paper games RPGs. To reverse this is to seriously misunderstand where and how these game genres came about. You would have a better argument if you posited that adventures were a subset of RPGs. At least the histories of the games would give you that support. ;-) Both computer RPGs (crpgs) and adventure games are twin genres coming from the same parent (D&D). They share many similarities (genetic code), but have taken different paths to the entertainment end. In the end they are distinct siblings. (Examples: Zork 1 had a complex combat system based on D&D, but that was removed in the later Infocom games because combat was really downplayed. Where as Wizardry and it sequels really focused on combat and action, not decision. And then there are the Rogue-likes such as Nethack. I can't see anyone seriously calling Nethack an adventure. It is a hack-n-slash crpg.) [Snip] Here's an example clarifying how important the main categories are: Think about the materials we see around us. What's the common classification expression -- Animal, Vegetable, or Mineral, right? That's a pretty good example: I am animal, the taco I just ate was vegetable, and the toilet I will no doubt be visiting shortly is mineral. Asking for the RPG genre to join the main list is like asking for "rocks" to join the Animal, Vegetable, or Mineral list when it's clearly already a mineral. It doesn't matter if the rock is in the shape of, say, an animal; that doesn't change the fact that it is a rock. [Snip] Now, if you see any problems in that logic, please let me know. The first thing that comes to mind is that your justification for your taxonomy isn't on solid ground. Any scientist will tell you that the real world is messier than what the taxonomies say 'should be'. For example, the duck-billed platypus or a virus. With some research I imagine I con find something that is either a plant or animal depending on your mood that day. :-D An accurate gaming taxonomy needs to include, even draw attention to, the messy nature of defining adventure games and crpgs. The two share a lot common features. Believe me, I understand the desire to have a nice, clean, and tidy taxonomy. They are so very appealing, but to be ultimately useful the taxonomy simply must reflect the reality of the games. Then again, I wouldn't be the one making all the changes to the database. :-D -- Edward Franks -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
I found one flaw right here: "Since there is no such thing as an RPG that isn't also an adventure, or strategy, or action game, RPG becomes a sub-genre instead of a main one." There are certainly RPGs that aren't adventure (or other genre) games. Two off the top of my head are Telengard and Rogue -- two of my favorites. There is no story to speak of in these type of games...there may be a story hinted in the manual or maybe in the conclusion (some games are open ended and have no conclusion). Even if there is the slightest hint of a story, you said that .0001% (paraphrasing) content doesn't make it switch genre. These games are hack and slash games whose goal is to make your characters as powerful as possible and find lots of treasure. No serious action, strategy or adventure. I can dig up several more of these games. Generally you'll find them to be older games since story became more common as the industry grew. However, you could argue that a game like Diablo is still a hack-n-slash RPG. They throw in some randomized plot elements (quests), but it is quite secondary to the fun of the game. Again, if Half Life isn't an adventure I would say Diablo isn't, but it is definitely an RPG. Mobygames says it is action. I'd say that's debatable since the definition requires the "main focus" to be action. But Telengard and Rogue are definitely not action games. Hugh ---Original Message--- From: Jim Leonard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: 01/22/03 12:35 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1 > > Edward Franks wrote: > > The problem is that you can easily swap in role-playing games as a > basic building block in place of Adventure. The same justifications > work for either. The two are so close together (more than any of the > other categories) that it is hard sometimes to see the unique > differences. I completely disagree. All RPGs are adventures, but not all adventures are RPGs; because of this, RPG is a subgenre in our system. Before you debate further, here is our definition of Adventure (a main genre) and RPG (a subgenre). Please read them over before responding. Adventure: "Denotes any game where the emphasis is based on experiencing a story through the manipulation of one or more user-controlled characters and the environment they exist in. Gameplay mechanics emphasize decision over action. Role-playing games (RPGs) are a common sub-genre of all adventure games, as are the classic Sierra "Quest" series of games. Text adventures (Interactive Fiction) are also, by definition, adventure games." Role-Playing: "Denotes games where the creation and advancement of character statistics is a major element of gameplay mechanics. Inspired by traditional role-playing games, such as Dungeons and Dragons. Players have specific attributes, "hit points", etc. and a large part of gameplay involves improving your character(s) through experience. Examples: Bard's Tale, Wizardry, Might and Magic, Lands of Lore, Wasteland, Fallout, etc. (Does not have to be based in fantasy settings, but most are.)" --- For extra credit, the MobyGames FAQ "Why is your "main" category list so sparse? Where's RPG? Where's puzzle games?" is answered like this: Our "main" list of genres -- also referred to as main categories -- are the most basic building blocks of game taxonomy. Meaning, they are intentionally basic and encompassing, such that any game in the world can fit into at least one of the main categories. A lot of people have asked us why some genres, specifically RPG, are not included in this list. That is because, for a game category to be included in the main list, it must stand by itself. Since there is no such thing as an RPG that isn't also an adventure, or strategy, or action game, RPG becomes a sub-genre instead of a main one. Here's an example clarifying how important the main categories are: Think about the materials we see around us. What's the common classification expression -- Animal, Vegetable, or Mineral, right? That's a pretty good example: I am animal, the taco I just ate was vegetable, and the toilet I will no doubt be visiting shortly is mineral. Asking for the RPG genre to join the main list is like asking for "rocks" to join the Animal, Vegetable, or Mineral list when it's clearly already a mineral. It doesn't matter if the rock is in the shape of, say, an animal; that doesn't change the fact that it is a rock. Hopefully by now you can see the importance we place on our main categories for the purposes of proper game classification. They may not match your specific definition of a game type, but that is sort-of the point. In order to properly classify games such as a scientist would classify a new element, we have to "break the mold" and classify them how they are supposed to be classified, not how they already have been for years. --- Now, if you see any problems in that logic, please let me know. -- http://www.
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Marco Thorek wrote: > > But I don't agree with Jim on making RPGs a subgenre. There are two > strong indications for having a RPG at hand: character development and a > party. The party aspect is indeed a strong element of RPGs. I neglected to say this in our RPG genre description, so I'll add it now. I won't limit RPGs to party-based games, but it should indeed be noted that *most* RPGs are party-based. See, discussion does bring about change :-) But since all RPGs are adventures, it remains a subgenre in our system. > Moby categorizes Bard's Tale as "Adventure, 1st-Person Perspective, > Medieval Fantasy, Role-Playing (RPG)," and Ultima IV as "Adventure, > Top-Down, Medieval Fantasy, Role-Playing (RPG)" but IMHO both are just > RPGs. But both are also adventures with a medieval fantasy theme, so I don't see your point...? > Maybe steering a party should be a subgenre and 1st person perspective > should be dropped as one. Many games from very different genres nowadays > are first person perspective, so this does not serve for much of a > distinction. So what is relevant today (as opposed to two decades ago) should influence our system? We created the system to categorize all games from all time periods. Also, "1st-person perspective" definitely serves as a distinction -- take Wizardry (1st) verses Fallout (3rd). Some people prefer 1st to feel more immersed in their surroundings. I think your scope isn't big enough. -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Marco Thorek wrote: > > Well, according to Moby it belongs to six genres. Two main, four sub. Sorry if that's not obvious in our presentation; I should probably mention to Brian that our main genres should be highlighted differently. > I thought about a game > belonging to one genre, like in the good old days. Then you fall into the gamedex.com category trap, which is a mess. > I remember the German Happy-Computer magazine periodically published > extra gaming editions and they were categorized by genre: RPG, Action, > Adventure, Sports, etc. Games that couldn't be classified clearly had > their own category, "Rest of the world." Elite was in there, as well as > Psi-5 Trading, Koronis Rift and Alter Ego. Today "Rest of the world" > woul probably make up most of the magazine. Exactly, which proves that the single-genre system is flawed by design. Thank you for proving my point :-) -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Edward Franks wrote: > > The problem is that you can easily swap in role-playing games as a > basic building block in place of Adventure. The same justifications > work for either. The two are so close together (more than any of the > other categories) that it is hard sometimes to see the unique > differences. I completely disagree. All RPGs are adventures, but not all adventures are RPGs; because of this, RPG is a subgenre in our system. Before you debate further, here is our definition of Adventure (a main genre) and RPG (a subgenre). Please read them over before responding. Adventure: "Denotes any game where the emphasis is based on experiencing a story through the manipulation of one or more user-controlled characters and the environment they exist in. Gameplay mechanics emphasize decision over action. Role-playing games (RPGs) are a common sub-genre of all adventure games, as are the classic Sierra "Quest" series of games. Text adventures (Interactive Fiction) are also, by definition, adventure games." Role-Playing: "Denotes games where the creation and advancement of character statistics is a major element of gameplay mechanics. Inspired by traditional role-playing games, such as Dungeons and Dragons. Players have specific attributes, "hit points", etc. and a large part of gameplay involves improving your character(s) through experience. Examples: Bard's Tale, Wizardry, Might and Magic, Lands of Lore, Wasteland, Fallout, etc. (Does not have to be based in fantasy settings, but most are.)" --- For extra credit, the MobyGames FAQ "Why is your "main" category list so sparse? Where's RPG? Where's puzzle games?" is answered like this: Our "main" list of genres -- also referred to as main categories -- are the most basic building blocks of game taxonomy. Meaning, they are intentionally basic and encompassing, such that any game in the world can fit into at least one of the main categories. A lot of people have asked us why some genres, specifically RPG, are not included in this list. That is because, for a game category to be included in the main list, it must stand by itself. Since there is no such thing as an RPG that isn't also an adventure, or strategy, or action game, RPG becomes a sub-genre instead of a main one. Here's an example clarifying how important the main categories are: Think about the materials we see around us. What's the common classification expression -- Animal, Vegetable, or Mineral, right? That's a pretty good example: I am animal, the taco I just ate was vegetable, and the toilet I will no doubt be visiting shortly is mineral. Asking for the RPG genre to join the main list is like asking for "rocks" to join the Animal, Vegetable, or Mineral list when it's clearly already a mineral. It doesn't matter if the rock is in the shape of, say, an animal; that doesn't change the fact that it is a rock. Hopefully by now you can see the importance we place on our main categories for the purposes of proper game classification. They may not match your specific definition of a game type, but that is sort-of the point. In order to properly classify games such as a scientist would classify a new element, we have to "break the mold" and classify them how they are supposed to be classified, not how they already have been for years. --- Now, if you see any problems in that logic, please let me know. -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Yech, it seems like Gamedex is confusing genre with plot. Jim Leonard wrote: > > Karl Kuras wrote: > > > > > To remain in the Interaction Fiction with Graphics subgenre, verb-noun > > input > > > using text labels must be maintained. If the verbs (actions) and nouns > > > (items) are replaced by icons or pictures, or accepts verb-only or > > noun-only > > > input, it no longer qualfies as Interactive Fiction." > > > > This definition unfortunately shouldn't include early Sierra and Lucasarts > > games for the simple fact that movement (one of the most time consuming > > aspects of a text adventure) is no longer controlled by verb + noun text > > inputs or selections, but is now relegated to a joystick, mouse or arrow key > > function. > > I don't agree. For one thing, movement was hardly the most time-consuming > portion (you could use abbreviations and could stack commands -- haven't you > ever typed "n,e,e,n,e" to move somewhere?). But more importantly, movement > was the ONLY thing NOT controlled by text input. Since the majority of > gameplay relied on text input, it is IF. > > > I would almost go as far as saying that IF is an improper name for the > > I never wrote that. Not IF, but IF+G. IF+G is IF with relaxed restrictions. > > > genre, but it should be Interactive Novel (for the classic Infocom games), > > Interactive Picture Book (for the text adventures with still images, like > > The Hobbitt and Gremlins) and Interactive Movie (for the Sierra and Lucas > > games which include animated sprites representing the characters). > > Too many classifications and you fall into the trap of gamedex.com. They have > over 200 categories, which makes their classification system ludicrous. Just > one look: > > Action Advenuture > Cartoonish Action Adventure > Fantasy Action Adventure > Sci-fi Action Adventure > Horror Action Adventure > Action Hero Adventure > Super Hero Advenutre > Spy Action Adventure > > ..and you know they're beyond help. Hopefully I don't need to explain why > this is a Very Bad Idea(tm). > -- > http://www.MobyGames.com/ > The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. > > -- > This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to > the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' > Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Karl Kuras wrote: > > > To remain in the Interaction Fiction with Graphics subgenre, verb-noun > input > > using text labels must be maintained. If the verbs (actions) and nouns > > (items) are replaced by icons or pictures, or accepts verb-only or > noun-only > > input, it no longer qualfies as Interactive Fiction." > > This definition unfortunately shouldn't include early Sierra and Lucasarts > games for the simple fact that movement (one of the most time consuming > aspects of a text adventure) is no longer controlled by verb + noun text > inputs or selections, but is now relegated to a joystick, mouse or arrow key > function. I don't agree. For one thing, movement was hardly the most time-consuming portion (you could use abbreviations and could stack commands -- haven't you ever typed "n,e,e,n,e" to move somewhere?). But more importantly, movement was the ONLY thing NOT controlled by text input. Since the majority of gameplay relied on text input, it is IF. > I would almost go as far as saying that IF is an improper name for the I never wrote that. Not IF, but IF+G. IF+G is IF with relaxed restrictions. > genre, but it should be Interactive Novel (for the classic Infocom games), > Interactive Picture Book (for the text adventures with still images, like > The Hobbitt and Gremlins) and Interactive Movie (for the Sierra and Lucas > games which include animated sprites representing the characters). Too many classifications and you fall into the trap of gamedex.com. They have over 200 categories, which makes their classification system ludicrous. Just one look: Action Advenuture Cartoonish Action Adventure Fantasy Action Adventure Sci-fi Action Adventure Horror Action Adventure Action Hero Adventure Super Hero Advenutre Spy Action Adventure ..and you know they're beyond help. Hopefully I don't need to explain why this is a Very Bad Idea(tm). -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Karl Kuras wrote: > > > Adventures progress through decision, not action. Since you can't > > significantly change Mafia's story or outcomes based on your decisions, > it's > > not an adventure game. People confuse this a lot; they think that great > > storytelling equals "adventure game", which is incorrect. Half-Life had > > excellent storytelling, but was it an adventure game? > > So if a game can only have one final outcome, no multiple endings then it's > not an adventure? That's not what I wrote. MOST games have one final outcome. But if there are multiple paths or mechanics on getting there, *and* the gameplay focuses on storytelling and "decision over action", it's an adventure. Within reason, you should not be restricted on how you get there. -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Edward Franks schrieb: > > > The problem is that you can easily swap in role-playing games as a > basic building block in place of Adventure. The same justifications > work for either. The two are so close together (more than any of the > other categories) that it is hard sometimes to see the unique > differences. That is true. Most likely that was also the reason why Infocom ventured into RPGs later on. But I don't agree with Jim on making RPGs a subgenre. There are two strong indications for having a RPG at hand: character development and a party. Moby categorizes Bard's Tale as "Adventure, 1st-Person Perspective, Medieval Fantasy, Role-Playing (RPG)," and Ultima IV as "Adventure, Top-Down, Medieval Fantasy, Role-Playing (RPG)" but IMHO both are just RPGs. Maybe steering a party should be a subgenre and 1st person perspective should be dropped as one. Many games from very different genres nowadays are first person perspective, so this does not serve for much of a distinction. Marco -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Edward Franks wrote: > > On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 10:43 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: > [Snip] > > Adventures progress through decision, not action. Since you can't > > significantly change Mafia's story or outcomes based on your > > decisions, it's > > not an adventure game. People confuse this a lot; they think that > > great > > storytelling equals "adventure game", which is incorrect. Half-Life > > had > > excellent storytelling, but was it an adventure game? > > No, but Half-Life swiped a number of elements from > adventure/role-playing games to give a needed twist to first person > shooters. For example, the very end was definitely an adventure-style > situation. I don't deny that, but 0.0001% of the gameplay giving you a story branch does not an adventure game make :-) -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 01:02 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: [Snip] Most people don't have a problem with the way MobyGames defines a genre, but some people have a problem with the Main genres (Action, Adventure, Educational, Racing / Driving, Simulation, Sports, Strategy). Every month we refer people to the FAQ question "Why isn't RPG a Main genre?". The problem is that you can easily swap in role-playing games as a basic building block in place of Adventure. The same justifications work for either. The two are so close together (more than any of the other categories) that it is hard sometimes to see the unique differences. -- Edward Franks -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Karl Kuras wrote: > > > At its most basic, Adventure + Action, subgenres Cyberpunk, Dark Sci-Fi. > > Come on... simply calling it Action Adventure ignores the Character > development aspects Sorry, I may have forgotten to add subgenre Role-Playing, which should be there. > of the game and simply labeling a game where shooting > occurs as Action would lump Space Invaders, Doom and Tomb Raider into the > same category The same BASIC category, yes. However, please note that I chose two basic genres to classify it, Adventure + Action, and Doom and Tomb Raider would NOT fit into that. Games are the summary of their parts. MobyGames tries to make sure the parts are clearly defined and labeled. > and let's face it, that is like saying that The French > Connection, Rambo and Hard Boiled are all action movies, but they really > have little to nothing in common and probably wouldn't even appeal to the > same group of people. But that doesn't change the fact that they are action movies. We're not debating whether or not those games are similar, we're debating how to classify them. -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > Jim Leonard wrote: > >Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres haven't blurred; people's minds > >have. Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult. > > Jagged Alliance, Birthright. > Wait, want really difficult ones? OK then: Europa 1400 The Guild, King of > Dragon Pass :) Jagged Alliance: Strategy, subgenres Role-Playing. Birthright: Same as Jagged Alliance, with Medieval Fantasy thrown in. Europa 1400: The Guild: Strategy, subgenres Managerial. King of Dragon Pass: Adventure (finally) + Strategy, subgenres Managerial, Role-Playing. (Wow, this game looks interesting -- I'll try to play it) These aren't hard to classify. In fact, no game is hard to classify. I think what is missing for most people is that no clear agreement of what some genres like "adventure" or "RPG" mean. Properly defining genres has been one of our missions since inception. Take a look at some MobyGames genres (find a game and click on the genre to get its description); I would very much like to know if anyone thinks we have something defined incorrectly. Most people don't have a problem with the way MobyGames defines a genre, but some people have a problem with the Main genres (Action, Adventure, Educational, Racing / Driving, Simulation, Sports, Strategy). Every month we refer people to the FAQ question "Why isn't RPG a Main genre?". -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
"Pedro Sez..."
As a sidenote on interfaces, I believe Ultima 6 was the first game to have both an
>icon-based interface _and_ also an "initial based" one ('O' for open, 'C' for cast,
>etc). I think most people, even those who were not used to the previous game, barely
>used the icons.<
Times of Lore (Origin, 1989) had these same icons, and gave the Ultima 6 team the
inspiration for it.
"Preserving Worlds"
Joe Garrity
Curator of the Origin Museum
Protector of the Ultima Crossbow
http://originmuseum.solsector.net
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Express yourself with a super cool email address from BigMailBox.com.
Hundreds of choices. It's free!
http://www.bigmailbox.com
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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Edward Franks wrote: > > From a game developer's viewpoint, when or what things made the IBM PC > the platform of choice over the Apple IIs, C64s, etc.? I know that on > the business side of programming the common wisdom is that 640K RAM was > the key (VisiCalc vs. Lotus 1-2-3). Was it the ubiquity of the PC > clones? VGA graphics? Reaching the limitations of 8-bit platform or an > intersection of all three? I think the intersection of all three. Color depth in the 320x200x256 MCGA mode (supported on MCGA and VGA) outclassed all platforms released until that time, even Amiga -- HAM was too slow for gaming, so that left up to 64 simultaneous onscreen colors in practical application (32 for most games). This was at a time when PC clones were cheap and 25MHz machines were the norm; combine all three, and what the PC lacked in graphics and sound hardware assistance it could make up for in CPU power/speed. But another way to look at it was the game designs themselves. For example, Apple II, C64, etc. could not do the kinds of things game designers wanted to do. Games with heavy memory AND CPU requirements like Wing Commander (for storing all those sprites, AND rotating/scaling them on the fly) or Falcon 3.0 (heavy 3D flight/world/etc. calculations, not just 3D rendering) just couldn't be done on any other platform. Some games even had to wait until their time had come -- for example, Strike Commander. The victim of bad timing, SC's game's engine was so advanced that even the current machines of the day couldn't run it properly (and this is NOT the fault of bad programming -- designed in 1992, it supported 3D textures, gouraud shading, distance fog, and other innovations that took two more years for other companies to produce). > In a way the PC seemed to be a step backward for games in the mid '80s > to about '90 because of the lack of decent sound. Though, for example, > Sierra pushed the various sound cards and external units, most of the > people I knew didn't buy sound cards until the time of Wing Commander > or Doom. I originally bought my sound cards for better music, both composing and in games (my first PC soundcard was only supported by the program it came with, Bank Street Music Writer). I bought an Adlib in 1989 because I had received a cool record (an actual, cereal-box-style floppy record) in the mail that demonstrated what it could do, and wanted to see how some of my favorite single-voice PC speaker music sounded with better hardware. What a surprise I got when Indy 500 had actual decent sound effects -- the cars sounded incredibly authentic. (They still do -- run Indy 500 on an Adlib and you'll see what I mean.) So, my experience was atypical -- I was always in it for the music. -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
> To remain in the Interaction Fiction with Graphics subgenre, verb-noun input > using text labels must be maintained. If the verbs (actions) and nouns > (items) are replaced by icons or pictures, or accepts verb-only or noun-only > input, it no longer qualfies as Interactive Fiction." This definition unfortunately shouldn't include early Sierra and Lucasarts games for the simple fact that movement (one of the most time consuming aspects of a text adventure) is no longer controlled by verb + noun text inputs or selections, but is now relegated to a joystick, mouse or arrow key function. I would almost go as far as saying that IF is an improper name for the genre, but it should be Interactive Novel (for the classic Infocom games), Interactive Picture Book (for the text adventures with still images, like The Hobbitt and Gremlins) and Interactive Movie (for the Sierra and Lucas games which include animated sprites representing the characters). Karl Kuras -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > Clever and engaging storylines, agreed (up to a certain period), but awful > interface? I admit the first version of the SCUMM system (Zak Mcracken, > Maniac Mansion) was poor, but the one used on the Monkeys and DoTT is, IMHO, > in the very least pretty decent. And so was the icon-based one they used > later starting on, I believe Sam & Max. You're crossing genres. DoTT and Monkeys is IF+G, Sam & Max was completely icon-based so it doesn't qualify as IF+G. > Sure, a parser is more precise when interpreting your ideas into the game, > but an icon-based one can often be more rewarding. I agree, but that's not what's being debated. The discussion is on the proper classification and taxonomy of IF and IF+G. -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Karl Kuras wrote: > > > Yes, but since those games are just Sierra-style games with verbs and > nouns > > you can pick from a list, it's still a derivative from IF (except this > time > > the parser forces a limited subset of words you can choose from, in a very > > specific two-word combo). The "pick words from a list"-style adventure > system > > was no better than Sierra's. What made Lucasarts games worth playing, > > thankfully, were the clever and engaging storylines and puzzles, which > were > > good enough to force people through the awful interface. > > But by that logic, you could say that a game like Jack the Nipper, or > Garfield: Big Fat Hair Deal were derivatives of IF as well, since you went > through the game, and with the correct selection of moves (to pick up, and > drop items, talk to characters, etc.) you went through a story. The > interface had just changed from words typed in or chosen from a list to > words chosen by specific joystick and fire button combos. Yes, that's true, but was the interface text-based? Meaning, did it enforce verb-noun commands with text labels? If so, it was IF; if not, it wasn't. > It seems that any > game that tells a story and has the character influence that story in any > way beyond just jumping and running would be an IF. That just completely > ignores the actual play mechanics which are what a "Genre" is supposed to be > defining. See my above answer. If the gameplay interface relies on verb-noun commands (must be both, not verb only or noun only) labeled with text (NOT icons), then it's IF. It doesn't matter if you select verbs/nouns via typing them or picking them from a list -- it's IF. If everything is icon-based, then all bets are off. Here's the MobyGames defintion for IF+G: "Same mechanics as Interactive Fiction, with modifications for graphics made to the input and output interface. Output can include graphics, which can either be turned off (Transylvania, Tau Ceti, etc.) or are mandatory (Sierra "Quest" and Lucasarts "SCUMM" games). Input is still text-based requiring verb-noun input, but the method of selection does not have to rely on the keyboard (meaning, you can pick from a visual list of verbs and nouns, like Lucasarts adventures). To remain in the Interaction Fiction with Graphics subgenre, verb-noun input using text labels must be maintained. If the verbs (actions) and nouns (items) are replaced by icons or pictures, or accepts verb-only or noun-only input, it no longer qualfies as Interactive Fiction." And, if you were curious, our definition for straight IF is: "Gameplay is language-based in nature. All interaction with the player, both input and feedback, is done through the input and output of pure text. Input mimics natural language using verb-noun (action-item) commands (Abbreviations also qualify, because they abbreviate a verb-noun construct, like "w" for "go west" or "i" for "list inventory"). Output is rendered in full, natural-language, grammatically-correct sentences. Sometimes referred to as "text-adventure" or "Infocom" games (after the company that made them famous)." -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 10:43 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: [Snip] Adventures progress through decision, not action. Since you can't significantly change Mafia's story or outcomes based on your decisions, it's not an adventure game. People confuse this a lot; they think that great storytelling equals "adventure game", which is incorrect. Half-Life had excellent storytelling, but was it an adventure game? No, but Half-Life swiped a number of elements from adventure/role-playing games to give a needed twist to first person shooters. For example, the very end was definitely an adventure-style situation. -- Edward Franks -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 10:09 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: [Snip] At its most basic, Adventure + Action, subgenres Cyberpunk, Dark Sci-Fi. There are strategy elements but they are not overwhelming. Moby has it as: http://www.mobygames.com/game/sheet/gameId,681/ and if you check the genre classifications, I agree with them. Ah. I see I differ in that I would say that System Shock is more role-playing than adventure, but I would have Role-Playing as a equal genre of adventure rather than as a sub-genre. But that's a different argument, so given the Moby definitions, I'd say you have it fairly well down. That was it? What about stuff that's offbeat, like Harmony or Zyll? Come on, kick me!! :-) I'm afraid I haven't been playing the more exotic games. :) I'll have to sit back and see what the others bring up. -- Edward Franks -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
> Adventures progress through decision, not action. Since you can't > significantly change Mafia's story or outcomes based on your decisions, it's > not an adventure game. People confuse this a lot; they think that great > storytelling equals "adventure game", which is incorrect. Half-Life had > excellent storytelling, but was it an adventure game? So if a game can only have one final outcome, no multiple endings then it's not an adventure? I mean, just because you solve "puzzles" doesn't mean you are actually changing the story, just that you're unlocking the next path along the road the designers already set in stone. Karl Kuras -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 06:48 PM, Marco Thorek wrote: [Snip] Beside documenting pretty much ignorance from people who publish articles, this also shows that there still is no public appreciation for the roots of computer gaming, not even among those who like to play games. Old movies are considered classics and are watched, old games are just obsolete. Except for, well, us and a few others. How many people watch silent movies from the 1910s and 1920s? Or even the run of the mill Black and White talkies? I would imagine that the early games are similar to silent movies for most people. Computer games as an entertainment medium is still very young. Give it a couple of more decades. :) -- Edward Franks -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Karl Kuras wrote: > > > Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres haven't blurred; people's minds > > have. Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult. > > I'll give this dare a try... how about Mafia? > I mean, it's a driving game, a shooter, and some would say an adventure. Adventures progress through decision, not action. Since you can't significantly change Mafia's story or outcomes based on your decisions, it's not an adventure game. People confuse this a lot; they think that great storytelling equals "adventure game", which is incorrect. Half-Life had excellent storytelling, but was it an adventure game? So: Action + Racing; subgenres 3rd-person perspective, shooter. (FYI: I added the above information, slightly reworked, as tomorrow's MobyGames Random Thought. I also correct the Mafia entry, to remove Adventure.) -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Marco Thorek wrote: > > Jim Leonard schrieb: > > > > > It seems to me, the farther we move into the present, the harder it is > > > to classify a game. Some genres have blurred beyond recognition. > > > > Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres haven't blurred; people's minds > > have. Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult. > > Hm, how about Deus Ex, Thief and System Shock 2? They incorporate > adventure style puzzles, but also have character development like CRPGs > and yet use elements from and look like FPS on a first glance. All of these are from Looking Glass and Warren Spector, LOL :-) They have adventure-style puzzles, but that does not necessarily make them adventure games. Given the nature of flow through them, though, I would entertain arguments that they are, but please see my previous post outlining what defines an Adventure game before starting. Otherwise, they're Action, subgenres 1st-person, shooting, puzzle-solving. -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
> At its most basic, Adventure + Action, subgenres Cyberpunk, Dark Sci-Fi. Come on... simply calling it Action Adventure ignores the Character development aspects of the game and simply labeling a game where shooting occurs as Action would lump Space Invaders, Doom and Tomb Raider into the same category and let's face it, that is like saying that The French Connection, Rambo and Hard Boiled are all action movies, but they really have little to nothing in common and probably wouldn't even appeal to the same group of people. Karl Kuras -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Jim Leonard schrieb: > > > > > System Shock? Taking into account all the combinations of the > > difficulty levels? :-D > > At its most basic, Adventure + Action, subgenres Cyberpunk, Dark Sci-Fi. > There are strategy elements but they are not overwhelming. Moby has it as: > http://www.mobygames.com/game/sheet/gameId,681/ and if you check the genre > classifications, I agree with them. Well, according to Moby it belongs to six genres. I thought about a game belonging to one genre, like in the good old days. I remember the German Happy-Computer magazine periodically published extra gaming editions and they were categorized by genre: RPG, Action, Adventure, Sports, etc. Games that couldn't be classified clearly had their own category, "Rest of the world." Elite was in there, as well as Psi-5 Trading, Koronis Rift and Alter Ego. Today "Rest of the world" woul probably make up most of the magazine. Marco -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Edward Franks wrote: > > On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 09:29 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: > [Snip] > >> It seems to me, the farther we move into the present, the harder it is > >> to classify a game. Some genres have blurred beyond recognition. > > > > Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres haven't blurred; people's > > minds > > have. Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult. > > System Shock? Taking into account all the combinations of the > difficulty levels? :-D At its most basic, Adventure + Action, subgenres Cyberpunk, Dark Sci-Fi. There are strategy elements but they are not overwhelming. Moby has it as: http://www.mobygames.com/game/sheet/gameId,681/ and if you check the genre classifications, I agree with them. That was it? What about stuff that's offbeat, like Harmony or Zyll? Come on, kick me!! :-) -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 03:01 AM, John Romero wrote: [Snip] The Apple II version of King's Quest was one of the early double-resolution 16-color games and subsequent Sierra adventures used that graphics mode. Double-res on the Apple II was 160x192 with 16 colors. Mixed-mode graphics on the C64 was 160x200 with 4 colors (from a 16-color palette) per 4x8 character block. It was just a logical decision to use the same assets and resolution as the other popular platforms. From a game developer's viewpoint, when or what things made the IBM PC the platform of choice over the Apple IIs, C64s, etc.? I know that on the business side of programming the common wisdom is that 640K RAM was the key (VisiCalc vs. Lotus 1-2-3). Was it the ubiquity of the PC clones? VGA graphics? Reaching the limitations of 8-bit platform or an intersection of all three? In a way the PC seemed to be a step backward for games in the mid '80s to about '90 because of the lack of decent sound. Though, for example, Sierra pushed the various sound cards and external units, most of the people I knew didn't buy sound cards until the time of Wing Commander or Doom. -- Edward Franks -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Jim Leonard wrote: >Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres haven't blurred; people's minds >have. Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult. Jagged Alliance, Birthright. Wait, want really difficult ones? OK then: Europa 1400 The Guild, King of Dragon Pass :) -- Pedro R. Quaresma Salvador Caetano IMVT Div. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information Division Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / Lotus Notes Admnistration and Development [EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492) "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity." - Albert Einstein ToyotaShopping - A sua Loja Toyota Online http://www.toyota.pt
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Jim Leonard wrote:
>What made Lucasarts games worth playing,
>thankfully, were the clever and engaging storylines and puzzles, which were
>good enough to force people through the awful interface.
Clever and engaging storylines, agreed (up to a certain period), but awful interface? I admit the first version of the SCUMM system (Zak Mcracken, Maniac Mansion) was poor, but the one used on the Monkeys and DoTT is, IMHO, in the very least pretty decent. And so was the icon-based one they used later starting on, I believe Sam & Max.
Sure, a parser is more precise when interpreting your ideas into the game, but an icon-based one can often be more rewarding.
As a sidenote on interfaces, I believe Ultima 6 was the first game to have both an icon-based interface _and_ also an "initial based" one ('O' for open, 'C' for cast, etc) I think most people, even those who were not used to the previous game, barely used the icons.
--
Pedro R. Quaresma
Salvador Caetano IMVT
Div. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information Division
Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes /
Lotus Notes Admnistration and Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)
"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity." - Albert Einstein
ToyotaShopping - A sua Loja Toyota Online
http://www.toyota.pt
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
> Yes, but since those games are just Sierra-style games with verbs and nouns > you can pick from a list, it's still a derivative from IF (except this time > the parser forces a limited subset of words you can choose from, in a very > specific two-word combo). The "pick words from a list"-style adventure system > was no better than Sierra's. What made Lucasarts games worth playing, > thankfully, were the clever and engaging storylines and puzzles, which were > good enough to force people through the awful interface. But by that logic, you could say that a game like Jack the Nipper, or Garfield: Big Fat Hair Deal were derivatives of IF as well, since you went through the game, and with the correct selection of moves (to pick up, and drop items, talk to characters, etc.) you went through a story. The interface had just changed from words typed in or chosen from a list to words chosen by specific joystick and fire button combos. It seems that any game that tells a story and has the character influence that story in any way beyond just jumping and running would be an IF. That just completely ignores the actual play mechanics which are what a "Genre" is supposed to be defining. Karl Kuras -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Jim Leonard schrieb: > > > It seems to me, the farther we move into the present, the harder it is > > to classify a game. Some genres have blurred beyond recognition. > > Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres haven't blurred; people's minds > have. Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult. Hm, how about Deus Ex, Thief and System Shock 2? They incorporate adventure style puzzles, but also have character development like CRPGs and yet use elements from and look like FPS on a first glance. I admit, three nasty choices, but these are the ones I was always unsure where to put. Marco -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
> Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres haven't blurred; people's minds > have. Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult. I'll give this dare a try... how about Mafia? I mean, it's a driving game, a shooter, and some would say an adventure. Karl Kuras -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 09:29 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: [Snip] It seems to me, the farther we move into the present, the harder it is to classify a game. Some genres have blurred beyond recognition. Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres haven't blurred; people's minds have. Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult. System Shock? Taking into account all the combinations of the difficulty levels? :-D -- Edward Franks -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Karl Kuras wrote: > > > Jim Leonard schrieb: > > > > > > At MobyGames we go over this every so often; people keep wanting to > somehow > > > *define* the words "adventure game" to mean "Sierra games" (the Quest > games, > > > etc.) > > I always called that type of game a Graphic Adventure, mainly because it's > what Lucasarts put as a label on Indiana Jones and the last crusade (they Yes, but since those games are just Sierra-style games with verbs and nouns you can pick from a list, it's still a derivative from IF (except this time the parser forces a limited subset of words you can choose from, in a very specific two-word combo). The "pick words from a list"-style adventure system was no better than Sierra's. What made Lucasarts games worth playing, thankfully, were the clever and engaging storylines and puzzles, which were good enough to force people through the awful interface. -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Marco Thorek wrote: > > > Others want to actually create a new genre specifically for > > "Sierra-like games". As official taxonomer for MobyGames, they will forever > > remain in our system as what they really are: Interactive Fiction with > > Graphics. This puts them in the same category as Mask of the Sun, Arthur: The > > Quest for Excalibur, etc. Because when you get down to it, all of the games > > Sierra put out from 1984 to 1991 that required text input are exactly that -- > > interactive fiction with graphics. The text parser may be bad, but it's still > > a parser and still required to complete the game. Entrance into a new > > room/area doesn't always print out a text description, but you do get text > > updates of events/locations/dialogue. So it's a gimmicky variant. > > Well, yes, as a matter of fact that would be correct. Would you put the > later Sierra adventures, which were entirely mouse driven IIRC? No, of course not -- there's no text parser so it doesn't qualify as Interactive Fiction. They just get classified as Adventure, with possible subgenres. > It seems to me, the farther we move into the present, the harder it is > to classify a game. Some genres have blurred beyond recognition. Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres haven't blurred; people's minds have. Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult. -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
