[OSM-talk] indic fonts in mapnik, JOSM and Potlatch

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

hi,

I have been searching for a way to render indic fonts in OSM/mapnik for some 
months and have posted here and elsewhere without result. Today I discovered 
something called GNU unifont which has glyphs for all known languages. 
Apparently this is used in the official OSM/Mapnik renderer. Anyway I compiled 
mapnik with support for this font, and am able to render all languages. If 
some kind soul could compile support for this in JOSM and Potlatch, it would 
be of extreme help to us - currently all we see is little boxes when entering 
text.
-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Senior Project Officer
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support

[Steve Bennett]

On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 6:10 AM, Ulf Lamping  wrote:
> What about the JOSM "map display" rules?
>
> You'll find the style file at:
>
> http://josm.openstreetmap.de/browser/trunk/styles/standard/elemstyles.xml

Brilliant! With about 10 minutes' effort, I've added a third column.
Looks like JOSM supports dozen of specific tags (shop=, sport=...) the
others don't. Which sort of makes sense: the editor helps you encode
lots of specific information, only some of which is worth rendering.
(Although long term you'd like to see all this info somehow rendered,
or at least accessible through one or more map views).

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Stevage/tagsupport

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] My Experiments with Mapping

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Friday 11 Dec 2009 6:57:27 pm Shalabh wrote:
> cal faces of huge Himalayan rock, 25 metres apart. And my GPS says the
> error is +-53 metres. Where do you suppose it showed me? Somewhere drilled
> into the mountain rock? Perhaps. The error went upto 96 metres and then the
> altimeter lost 100 metres while I was climbing.
> 
you can buy a sparcsystems logger which in ideal conditions is accurate to a 
metre - it has a magnetic antenna with a 3 metre cord which you can stick on 
the roof of your car and a bell push for marking waypoints which you can fix to 
your steering wheel. It costs around 7500

-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Senior Project Officer
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[Anthony]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Shalabh  wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:09 AM, Liz  wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 12 Dec 2009, Shalabh wrote:
>> > While I am not advocating a fork (I am anyway voting a yes to ODBL), I
>> dont
>> > think a single community is always the answer. Single communities tend
>> to
>> > get static for the lack of competition. All successful open source
>> projects
>> > have parallels, whether through forking or because of different organic
>> > origins. So I dont think if OSM has a parallel because of forking, it
>> would
>> > be bad. Gives people more choices to choose from and thats what freedom
>> is
>> > all about.
>>
>> Honestly I'm happy to have GoogleMap as the competitor.
>>
>
> Sorry, google is anyway not the only competitor.
>

Nor are they a competitor in the first place.
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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[Shalabh]

On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:09 AM, Liz  wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Dec 2009, Shalabh wrote:
> > While I am not advocating a fork (I am anyway voting a yes to ODBL), I
> dont
> > think a single community is always the answer. Single communities tend to
> > get static for the lack of competition. All successful open source
> projects
> > have parallels, whether through forking or because of different organic
> > origins. So I dont think if OSM has a parallel because of forking, it
> would
> > be bad. Gives people more choices to choose from and thats what freedom
> is
> > all about.
>
> Honestly I'm happy to have GoogleMap as the competitor.
>
>
>
Sorry, google is anyway not the only competitor. India already has
mapmyindia offering maps and navigation instruments. Need I say, OSM is
nowhere near being used for that because we have so little data. I am sure
all geographies have their own local competition as well. So, a market with
2 competitors (OSM and Google) is neither real, nor possible. The world as a
maket for mapping and geodata based applications is too large to be served
by the bad G and the good OSM. I dont have any delusions about OSM's
grandeur.

So, the faster we reconcile to the difference of opinion we seem to have on
the license issue, the faster we move forward, whether forked or not.

Regards,
Shalabh
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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[Emilie Laffray]

On 11/12/2009 16:16, Peter Childs wrote:
>
> Hmm the Fork is strong? in the case of X XFree86 (ie the original) is
> almost unknown now. and the Fork meant many years of little or no
> development on what is the main graphics sub-system used across
> multiple operating systems.
>   

In the case of XFree86, everybody abandoned it very quickly because of
the way they did the licence change. As soon as it was forked, some
major distribution switched to X.Org. XFree86 was already pretty much
dead due to the way they restricted development.
I don't know where you have seen no development. One of the first thing
that X.Org was to unmerge all the unmaintanable libraries that were
merged into the X windowing system. It came very quickly. There were
lots of development but none or little on XFree86.
Honestly, this is one of the worse example you could have chosen.
The fork happened in early 2004 and by september 2004, you already had
two releases. Lots of projects that were stuck suddenly could be
implemented like compositing.

Emilie Laffray



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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[Liz]

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009, Shalabh wrote:
> While I am not advocating a fork (I am anyway voting a yes to ODBL), I dont
> think a single community is always the answer. Single communities tend to
> get static for the lack of competition. All successful open source projects
> have parallels, whether through forking or because of different organic
> origins. So I dont think if OSM has a parallel because of forking, it would
> be bad. Gives people more choices to choose from and thats what freedom is
> all about.

Honestly I'm happy to have GoogleMap as the competitor.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Results of the opinion poll about Odbl for OSM

[Anthony]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 7:58 AM, Steve Bennett  wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Pieren  wrote:
> > For the  340+ who replied, we have:
> > 30% "yes, I will accept the new license Odbl"
> > 45% "yes and consider all my data Public domain (no restrictions)"
> > 3% "no, I will not accept the new license Odbl but I will if the
> > license is reworked"
> > 10% "no, I will not accept the new license Odbl and wants to continue
> > with the CC-BY-SA2.0 license"
> > 12% "I don't know yet because I don't understand the new license or
> > the possible consequences"
>
> So the number of people actually opposed to the Odbl is somewhere
> between 10 and 25%. That's a great result. (In the sense that
> unanimity is great.)
>

I dunno, depends if it's closer to 10% or 25%.  75% in favor of the change
is about the worst possible result.  It's enough in favor that the change
will probably go through, but enough opposed to cause a significant fracture
to the community.

Of course, I think the numbers in opposition are closer to 10% than 25%.
And the numbers strongly in opposition are probably less than 5%.



The big question is how many people won't respond at all, and, perhaps more
importantly, what fraction of the database that makes impossible to
relicense.  Based on the poll numbers, with 340 out of 100,000+ responding,
that leaves that number between 0% and 99.9966%.
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Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support

[Ulf Lamping]

Am 11.12.2009 11:13, schrieb Steve Bennett:
> Hi all,
>I've been showing my progress on this task to the tag list, but now
> that I have a pretty table, I'll show it here:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Stevage/tagsupport
>
> This table shows whether the main OSM stylesheets in each of Mapnik
> and Osmarenderer support each of the given tags. The definition of
> "support" is pretty flimsy: basically I'm just scanning for
> expressions like "wetland='bog'". Still, I think it gives a bit of an
> idea.
>
> Would love to hear from anyone who thinks this is useful, or would
> like to suggest the next steps (ie, potlatch, merkaartor...)

What about the JOSM "map display" rules?

You'll find the style file at:

http://josm.openstreetmap.de/browser/trunk/styles/standard/elemstyles.xml


There's a small help about the format at the start of that file, just 
ask if there are further questions.

Regards, ULFL

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Re: [OSM-talk] Getting boundaries from XAPI

[Roland Olbricht]

Hello,

you can try a HTTP POST request to OSM3S via
http://78.46.81.38/api/interpreter
with


  
  
  



E.g. paste the XML into a textfile "req.xml" and run
wget --post-file="req.xml" http://78.46.81.38/api/interpreter
The result is a gzipped XML file.

Or just open
http://78.46.81.38/
and paste the request into an arbitrary text field.

Cheers,

Roland


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Re: [OSM-talk] And the prize for the largest closed way goes to...

[John F. Eldredge]

The resulting circle would only be the equator if it lay on the plane of the 
Earth's rotation, but I agree that the software probably wouldn't be happy 
about having the starting and ending points coincide.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

-Original Message-
From: Anthony 
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 12:55:50 
To: Dirk-Lüder Kreie
Cc: Talk Openstreetmap
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] And the prize for the largest closed way goes to...

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OBbL and forks

[Anthony]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 1:05 PM, 80n <80n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Anthony  wrote:
>
>> And the original contributors can't sue for breach of contract or
>> infringement of the database rights, correct?  In that sense, this is a lot
>> *like* a copyright assignment.  Especially since the ODbL only covers the
>> database as a whole, not the individual contributions.
>>
>
> The original contributors do not own the database right so they have no
> basis for sueing.
>

Yeah, that's what I thought.


> You have to rely on OSMF to protect your data.
>

I rely on my backups to protect my data!
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OBbL and forks

[80n]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Anthony  wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 5:26 AM, James Livingston  wrote:
>
>> The downside of not requiring copyright assignment is that OSMF can't sue
>> for copyright infringement of the data.
>>
>
> I believe some other projects get around that by assigning the project as
> an agent for the purposes of engaging in a copyright infringement lawsuit.
> Not that I know the exact details or care to know them, as I think it'd be a
> terrible idea.
>
>
>> They could still sue for breach of contract and possible infringement of
>> the database rights (I'm not sure about that, I don't know enough about EU
>> law).
>>
>
> And the original contributors can't sue for breach of contract or
> infringement of the database rights, correct?  In that sense, this is a lot
> *like* a copyright assignment.  Especially since the ODbL only covers the
> database as a whole, not the individual contributions.
>

The original contributors do not own the database right so they have no
basis for sueing.  You have to rely on OSMF to protect your data.

If OSMF doesn't protect your contributions you could try sueing them.  But I
think clause 6.2 of the Contributor Terms would make it very unlikely that
you'd succeed.  "OSMF shall [not] be liable for any special, indirect,
incidental, consequential, punitive, or exemplary damages under this
Agreement, however caused and under any theory of liability."

80n
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Re: [OSM-talk] And the prize for the largest closed way goes to...

[Anthony]

2009/12/11 Anthony 

> 2009/12/11 Dirk-Lüder Kreie 
>
>> (JFTR: -180 and +180 degrees are valid longitudes.)
>
>
> So a way from -180 to +180 would be the equator, but the software wouldn't
> realize it's closed since -180=+180.
>

Err, nevermind.  even if two nodes are in the same position that doesn't
mean the way is closed!
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Re: [OSM-talk] And the prize for the largest closed way goes to...

[Anthony]

2009/12/11 Dirk-Lüder Kreie 

> (JFTR: -180 and +180 degrees are valid longitudes.)


So a way from -180 to +180 would be the equator, but the software wouldn't
realize it's closed since -180=+180.
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Re: [OSM-talk] And the prize for the largest closed way goes to...

[Anthony]

2009/12/11 Dirk-Lüder Kreie 

> Anthony schrieb:
>
>> 2009/12/10 Dirk-Lüder Kreie > osm-l...@deelkar.net>>
>>
>>
>>Anthony schrieb:
>> > That does it, I'm making a way with name=Northern Hemisphere.  Or
>>would
>> > that be name=equator.  Doesn't work, does it?
>>
>>No, you can't put in the equator as a *closed* way, since the API
>>doesn't allow the way to wrap around on lon+-180°.
>>
>>
>> How does the API determine whether or not a way is closed?
>>
>
> The "first" node is simply referenced a second time at the "end".


I know that's the standard, but what does that have to do with the API?
Looking at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OSM_Protocol_Version_0.6,
I don't see anything about this.  As far as the API is concerned a way
is
a way is a way.  There are no "closed ways" and "open ways".

I assumed (I guess incorrectly), that most software would interpret that as
>> the shortest possible line - a line with a length of 2 degrees, not a line
>> with a length of 358 degrees.
>>
>
> Yes, your assumption was wrong, the software does no wrapping around at the
> 180° Meridian. (currently)
>

When you say "the" software, is there a particular program you're talking
about, or are you just referring to all the editors/renderers you know of?
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OBbL and forks

[Anthony]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 5:26 AM, James Livingston  wrote:

> The downside of not requiring copyright assignment is that OSMF can't sue
> for copyright infringement of the data.
>

I believe some other projects get around that by assigning the project as an
agent for the purposes of engaging in a copyright infringement lawsuit.  Not
that I know the exact details or care to know them, as I think it'd be a
terrible idea.


> They could still sue for breach of contract and possible infringement of
> the database rights (I'm not sure about that, I don't know enough about EU
> law).
>

And the original contributors can't sue for breach of contract or
infringement of the database rights, correct?  In that sense, this is a lot
*like* a copyright assignment.  Especially since the ODbL only covers the
database as a whole, not the individual contributions.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Why the BSD vs GPL debate is irrelevant to OSM

[Shalabh]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 10:54 PM, Anthony  wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:53 AM, Peter Körner wrote:
>
>> > E.g. I'd be happy to see things like Google use OSM data and mix it with
>> > any other source of data they can get their hands on, but only if
>> > improvements they make to the data (or they get from their customers)
>> > get fed back to OSM.
>>
>> How would you differentiate between edits that go to the OSM Data and
>> edits that go to "any other source"?
>>
>> When you're talking about mixing the data, I think of some kind of
>> layers. If a user now adds a POI, which layer is affected? Google could
>> just drop this POI into their own layer so that it never reaches the
>> OSM-Data? This way no improvements would have to go back.
>>
>
> Most likely that's possible under the ODbL, since that'd be a produced
> work.  I'm not sure if Google would try it or not, though, because the ODbL
> is pretty ambiguous.  From one account (which I haven't verified), there's
> already OSM data in Google Maps.
>
>
> Ok, heres a question I have been meaning to ask for long. What is the big
deal if the big, bad G takes a chunk of data from OSM and uses it? Do I
care? No. If anything, I would be happy that we created something worthy to
be used by a corporation. As long as they dont restrict me from using data
on OSM, which they in no way cant, I dont have a problem. If they dont 'give
back' to the community, big deal!! Any open source project anyway has lots
of free riders. I am a free rider on Joomla, I just cant contribute anything
there, I am inept at programming. I am sure there are people who just
download maps from OSM onto their navigators and never turn back to give
anything back. If they are not bad, why is Google so bad? And why is them
using the data bad?

Regards,
Shalabh
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Re: [OSM-talk] Why the BSD vs GPL debate is irrelevant to OSM

[Anthony]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:53 AM, Peter Körner wrote:

> > E.g. I'd be happy to see things like Google use OSM data and mix it with
> > any other source of data they can get their hands on, but only if
> > improvements they make to the data (or they get from their customers)
> > get fed back to OSM.
>
> How would you differentiate between edits that go to the OSM Data and
> edits that go to "any other source"?
>
> When you're talking about mixing the data, I think of some kind of
> layers. If a user now adds a POI, which layer is affected? Google could
> just drop this POI into their own layer so that it never reaches the
> OSM-Data? This way no improvements would have to go back.
>

Most likely that's possible under the ODbL, since that'd be a produced
work.  I'm not sure if Google would try it or not, though, because the ODbL
is pretty ambiguous.  From one account (which I haven't verified), there's
already OSM data in Google Maps.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business

[Anthony]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 12:12 PM, Anthony  wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 3:54 AM, John Smith wrote:
>
>> 2009/12/11 Anthony :
>>
> > Plus I think OSM is going to lose a huge chunk of the database over this.
>>
>> This would be a disaster, but some have already mentioned having a
>> read only database with non-ODBL data and then combining it on the
>> tile server to get round this problem,
>>
>
> You can only do that if you release the tiles under CC-BY-SA, which means
> that anyone else is free to extract the data from the tiles and use it under
> CC-BY-SA.
>

Isn't copyleft great!  Real copyleft, not that ODbL crap.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business

[Anthony]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 3:54 AM, John Smith wrote:

> 2009/12/11 Anthony :
>
> Plus I think OSM is going to lose a huge chunk of the database over this.
>
> This would be a disaster, but some have already mentioned having a
> read only database with non-ODBL data and then combining it on the
> tile server to get round this problem,


You can only do that if you release the tiles under CC-BY-SA, which means
that anyone else is free to extract the data from the tiles and use it under
CC-BY-SA.

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 4:12 AM, paul youlten wrote:

> Saying "This would be a disaster" is a bit hyperbolic. Sure, people
> who hate OSMapping and just want to use bulk imports will be very,
> very disappointed, and possibly even a bit upset that they actually
> have to go out into the real world and make maps.  ;-)
>

I'd certainly be upset if someone told me that my office is not part of the
real world and therefore I'm not allowed to use it to make maps!
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Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support

[Steve Bennett]

Hmm, just discovered that this line is causing Osmarender to show up
with a lot more tags than it should:



My code is correctly exploding out all the possibilities, even if
"power=bureau_de_change" doesn't make a lot of sense...

Not sure what to do about that one.

Btw, I've tweaked the code a bit, all the tags are linked in the wiki now.

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[Shalabh]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:46 PM, Peter Childs  wrote:

> 2009/12/11 Emilie Laffray :
> >
> >
> > 2009/12/11 Peter Childs 
> >>
> >> Hmm Maybe these have not all died but the split did cause serious
> damage.
> >>
> >> X (You now have a choice of X.org and XFree86), The split caused a
> >> long halt in development and the original is hardly used now, only the
> >> branch
> >>
> >> Joomla/Mambo
> >>
> >> I'm sure there are others
> >>
> >
> > Hum, the examples you are choosing are interesting but not for the reason
> > you think. Please note that I am not advocating a fork far from it.
> > In the two cases you cited, the fork is actually very strong, and there
> was
> > very little damage.
>
> Hmm the Fork is strong? in the case of X XFree86 (ie the original) is
> almost unknown now. and the Fork meant many years of little or no
> development on what is the main graphics sub-system used across
> multiple operating systems.
>
> Project split for many reasons but I will never think that a split is
> or was a good thing. I would prefer in almost all cases one good tool
> for the job, instead of 3 tools that all do the same job badly.
>
> Lets work together rather than apart, our strength is in the Union.
>
> Peter
>
> Peter.
>
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>

While I am not advocating a fork (I am anyway voting a yes to ODBL), I dont
think a single community is always the answer. Single communities tend to
get static for the lack of competition. All successful open source projects
have parallels, whether through forking or because of different organic
origins. So I dont think if OSM has a parallel because of forking, it would
be bad. Gives people more choices to choose from and thats what freedom is
all about.

Regards,
Shalabh
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Re: [OSM-talk] Getting boundaries from XAPI

[Gary68]

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Boundaries.pl

maybe of help?

On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 11:02 -0500, Nakor wrote:
>   Hello,
> 
> I was trying to get boundaries (i.e. nodes, ways and relations making
> the county and cities limits) for my county from XAPI but cannot get
> exactly what I want.
> 
> If I try /api/0.6/way[bbox=-83.702,42.413,-83.069,42.905][boundary=*],
> I get every node and way fine, but the relations just come up empty.
> Also loadin this file in JOSM and updating the data does not get the
> members in the relations.
> If I
> try /api/0.6/relation[bbox=-83.702,42.413,-83.069,42.905][boundary=*]
> I get a huge file with data completely outside the zone I requested
> (like nodes in Europe!)
> 
> Any help on how to get the data I want would be appreciated.
> 
>   Thanks,
> 
> N.
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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[Peter Childs]

2009/12/11 Emilie Laffray :
>
>
> 2009/12/11 Peter Childs 
>>
>> Hmm Maybe these have not all died but the split did cause serious damage.
>>
>> X (You now have a choice of X.org and XFree86), The split caused a
>> long halt in development and the original is hardly used now, only the
>> branch
>>
>> Joomla/Mambo
>>
>> I'm sure there are others
>>
>
> Hum, the examples you are choosing are interesting but not for the reason
> you think. Please note that I am not advocating a fork far from it.
> In the two cases you cited, the fork is actually very strong, and there was
> very little damage.

Hmm the Fork is strong? in the case of X XFree86 (ie the original) is
almost unknown now. and the Fork meant many years of little or no
development on what is the main graphics sub-system used across
multiple operating systems.

Project split for many reasons but I will never think that a split is
or was a good thing. I would prefer in almost all cases one good tool
for the job, instead of 3 tools that all do the same job badly.

Lets work together rather than apart, our strength is in the Union.

Peter

Peter.

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[OSM-talk] Getting boundaries from XAPI

[Nakor]

  Hello,

I was trying to get boundaries (i.e. nodes, ways and relations making the
county and cities limits) for my county from XAPI but cannot get exactly
what I want.

If I try /api/0.6/way[bbox=-83.702,42.413,-83.069,42.905][boundary=*], I get
every node and way fine, but the relations just come up empty. Also loadin
this file in JOSM and updating the data does not get the members in the
relations.
If I try /api/0.6/relation[bbox=-83.702,42.413,-83.069,42.905][boundary=*] I
get a huge file with data completely outside the zone I requested (like
nodes in Europe!)

Any help on how to get the data I want would be appreciated.

  Thanks,

N.
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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[Emilie Laffray]

2009/12/11 Peter Childs 

>
> Hmm Maybe these have not all died but the split did cause serious damage.
>
> X (You now have a choice of X.org and XFree86), The split caused a
> long halt in development and the original is hardly used now, only the
> branch
>
> Joomla/Mambo
>
> I'm sure there are others
>
>
Hum, the examples you are choosing are interesting but not for the reason
you think. Please note that I am not advocating a fork far from it.
In the two cases you cited, the fork is actually very strong, and there was
very little damage.
For X.org, I don't see where there was an halt in development. The first
X.Org release came shortly after the split. In addition, a lot of people
would tell you that the split happened because partly the development was
getting nowhere, due the number of contributors being restricted to only a
few people who didn't want to see much change. The license was just the
extra thing that made the community fork the code.
For Joomla/Mambo, you can see that Joomla never really stopped. Mambo was
commercial and was ignoring the community, but most of the main devs were
the one who actually forked the code. The main reason for the fork was a
foundation take over.
I would say that in both case the fork was a good thing.

If you want an interesting example, you can always the case of Compiz, which
had been forked and then remerged.
I don't think we are near any of those scenarios for plenty of reasons, like
the nature of the licence, the political situation, etc. I don't see the
reason to propagate more fear than is actually needed. It is clear that if a
fork happens either one of the branch dies (not necessarily the main one),
or it will merge back later on at some point. There is always a cost to pay
when you are forking but the effects are very hard to predict. You always
have to wonder what the exact cost of forking, taking time to carefully
evaluate why you want to fork or is it worth it in the first place? Can you
talk about the subject, come to a compromise and so far? I haven't seen the
foundation so far not trying to explain itself, and trying to move towards a
compromise.

Emilie Laffray
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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[paul youlten]

Oh, so you are talking about a fork in an open source project. Of
course I realised that you didn't really mean "death" but I thought
you might mean that Liz Dodds and Talk-au were going to cut my nodes
off. ;-)

I was under the impression that a certain amount of forking was
encouraged in open source development. Better to have two happy
projects with happy communities, each doing their own thing than one
miserable one where all we do is talk hyperbollocks about how we are
going to get ripped off and what a disaster it is going to be if data
has to be deleted.

PY


On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Peter Childs  wrote:
> 2009/12/11 paul youlten :
>> Peter,
>>
>> That sounds bad. Can you give us some examples?
>>
>> PY
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Peter Childs  wrote:
>>> 2009/12/11 paul youlten :
 Dave,

 Clearly all those things, and much more, can and should be mapped.
 They can all be seen on the street and they all have public access. I
 agree: "If it's a physical entity then it can be mapped." ++

 What is less clear is what happens if changing the licence means we
 lose "invisible" administrative boundaries and data from areas where
 public access is difficult, restricted or non-existent.

 For example would be nice to include the boundaries of a UK National
 Park or a site of special scientific interest or (dare I say it) the
 coastline of Australia - but I don't think it is a "disaster" that
 threatens the future of the project if these things are removed
 because of a change in the licence.

 PY

>>>
>>> From having seen it in quite a few Open Source projects, it would be a
>>> death sentence.
>>>
>
> Hmm Maybe these have not all died but the split did cause serious damage.
>
> X (You now have a choice of X.org and XFree86), The split caused a
> long halt in development and the original is hardly used now, only the
> branch
>
> Joomla/Mambo
>
> I'm sure there are others
>
> Peter.
>
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>



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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[Shalabh]

Dont see that as necessarily bad. If there is a fundamental difference in
ideologies/beliefs of members, I think the project, in the longer term is
better served by a split. Neither do I see it as a setback, its more like a
step backward to take many steps forward for each of the splits.

Regards,
Shalabh

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 8:55 PM, Peter Childs  wrote:

> 2009/12/11 paul youlten :
> > Peter,
> >
> > That sounds bad. Can you give us some examples?
> >
> > PY
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Peter Childs  wrote:
> >> 2009/12/11 paul youlten :
> >>> Dave,
> >>>
> >>> Clearly all those things, and much more, can and should be mapped.
> >>> They can all be seen on the street and they all have public access. I
> >>> agree: "If it's a physical entity then it can be mapped." ++
> >>>
> >>> What is less clear is what happens if changing the licence means we
> >>> lose "invisible" administrative boundaries and data from areas where
> >>> public access is difficult, restricted or non-existent.
> >>>
> >>> For example would be nice to include the boundaries of a UK National
> >>> Park or a site of special scientific interest or (dare I say it) the
> >>> coastline of Australia - but I don't think it is a "disaster" that
> >>> threatens the future of the project if these things are removed
> >>> because of a change in the licence.
> >>>
> >>> PY
> >>>
> >>
> >> From having seen it in quite a few Open Source projects, it would be a
> >> death sentence.
> >>
>
> Hmm Maybe these have not all died but the split did cause serious damage.
>
> X (You now have a choice of X.org and XFree86), The split caused a
> long halt in development and the original is hardly used now, only the
> branch
>
> Joomla/Mambo
>
> I'm sure there are others
>
> Peter.
>
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[Peter Childs]

2009/12/11 paul youlten :
> Peter,
>
> That sounds bad. Can you give us some examples?
>
> PY
>
> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Peter Childs  wrote:
>> 2009/12/11 paul youlten :
>>> Dave,
>>>
>>> Clearly all those things, and much more, can and should be mapped.
>>> They can all be seen on the street and they all have public access. I
>>> agree: "If it's a physical entity then it can be mapped." ++
>>>
>>> What is less clear is what happens if changing the licence means we
>>> lose "invisible" administrative boundaries and data from areas where
>>> public access is difficult, restricted or non-existent.
>>>
>>> For example would be nice to include the boundaries of a UK National
>>> Park or a site of special scientific interest or (dare I say it) the
>>> coastline of Australia - but I don't think it is a "disaster" that
>>> threatens the future of the project if these things are removed
>>> because of a change in the licence.
>>>
>>> PY
>>>
>>
>> From having seen it in quite a few Open Source projects, it would be a
>> death sentence.
>>

Hmm Maybe these have not all died but the split did cause serious damage.

X (You now have a choice of X.org and XFree86), The split caused a
long halt in development and the original is hardly used now, only the
branch

Joomla/Mambo

I'm sure there are others

Peter.

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Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support

[Steve Bennett]

On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:57 AM, Steve Bennett  wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:51 AM, Dave F.  wrote:
>> Could you post the link to the stylesheet please

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Stevage/tagsupport/code

Have fun!

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[paul youlten]

Peter,

That sounds bad. Can you give us some examples?

PY

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Peter Childs  wrote:
> 2009/12/11 paul youlten :
>> Dave,
>>
>> Clearly all those things, and much more, can and should be mapped.
>> They can all be seen on the street and they all have public access. I
>> agree: "If it's a physical entity then it can be mapped." ++
>>
>> What is less clear is what happens if changing the licence means we
>> lose "invisible" administrative boundaries and data from areas where
>> public access is difficult, restricted or non-existent.
>>
>> For example would be nice to include the boundaries of a UK National
>> Park or a site of special scientific interest or (dare I say it) the
>> coastline of Australia - but I don't think it is a "disaster" that
>> threatens the future of the project if these things are removed
>> because of a change in the licence.
>>
>> PY
>>
>
> From having seen it in quite a few Open Source projects, it would be a
> death sentence.
>
> Peter
>



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Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support

[Steve Bennett]

On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:51 AM, Dave F.  wrote:
> Could you post the link to the stylesheet please

Ok, I'll give it a quick rinse first.
> That seems a good idea
> Could you list be extended to show for which element the likes of bridge
> are/aren't rendered?

By "element" do you mean node/way/area? I think in some cases that
information is available. In theory, it's not too hard to attach any
information from the surrounding XML structure, it's just a question
of how clear that information is and how readily it can be deciphered.

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[Steve Bennett]

On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:47 AM, Peter Childs  wrote:
> From having seen it in quite a few Open Source projects, it would be a
> death sentence.

I'll have to take your word for it. From my point of view, I think I'd
rather see a 70% free project with 100% coverage, than a 100% free
project with 70% coverage. I imagine there is a wide range of views on
this topic.

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support

[Dave F.]

Steve Bennett wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:01 AM, Lennard  wrote:
>
>   
>> Yes, it is. It falls under bridge=*, i.e. every occurence of the bridge
>> tag on certain highway types will render a bridge. This conveniently
>> catches other exotic instances, like bridge=swing, bridge=span, etc. But
>> as always, the devil is in the details, as there are numerous places
>> where bridges are handled, in the mapnik stylesheet, and other places
>> just look at bridge=yes/true/1 and not *.
>> 
I see. So, if I understand you correctly, highway=road,bridge=viaduct 
will display; but railway=rail,bridge=viaduct will not.

Could you post the link to the stylesheet please
>>
>> PS: Steve, it's best if you filtered the output to not show 'length'.
>> That's not a key that's pulled from OSM. It's generated internally. Same
>> goes for 'point', 'way_area' and 'z_order'
>> 
>
> Great, this is the kind of info I was hoping would turn up. With your
> rules for the different words that mean "bridge", they would be a good
> candidate for standardising across renderers, right? List the rules in
> one place, then use them globally...
That seems a good idea
Could you list be extended to show for which element the likes of bridge 
are/aren't rendered?

Cheers
Dave F.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[Peter Childs]

2009/12/11 paul youlten :
> Dave,
>
> Clearly all those things, and much more, can and should be mapped.
> They can all be seen on the street and they all have public access. I
> agree: "If it's a physical entity then it can be mapped." ++
>
> What is less clear is what happens if changing the licence means we
> lose "invisible" administrative boundaries and data from areas where
> public access is difficult, restricted or non-existent.
>
> For example would be nice to include the boundaries of a UK National
> Park or a site of special scientific interest or (dare I say it) the
> coastline of Australia - but I don't think it is a "disaster" that
> threatens the future of the project if these things are removed
> because of a change in the licence.
>
> PY
>

>From having seen it in quite a few Open Source projects, it would be a
death sentence.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[paul youlten]

Dave,

Clearly all those things, and much more, can and should be mapped.
They can all be seen on the street and they all have public access. I
agree: "If it's a physical entity then it can be mapped." ++

What is less clear is what happens if changing the licence means we
lose "invisible" administrative boundaries and data from areas where
public access is difficult, restricted or non-existent.

For example would be nice to include the boundaries of a UK National
Park or a site of special scientific interest or (dare I say it) the
coastline of Australia - but I don't think it is a "disaster" that
threatens the future of the project if these things are removed
because of a change in the licence.

PY

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Dave F.  wrote:
> paul youlten wrote:
>>
>> But it is still a street map that we are making - administrative
>> boundaries, top secret government installations, Al Qaeda training
>> camps, water catchment areas and so on are fascinating (and probably
>> great fun to map) but they are not necessarily part of a street map.
>>
>> PY
>>
>>
>
> Paul
>
> I think you have a slightly narrow perspective of OSM.
>
> Yes, it has street in the title & yes, it says "/such as street maps" /in
> the tag line, but it doesn't say 'only' street maps.
>
> Do you think parks, pubs, recycling centres etc shouldn't be mapped?
>
> If it's a physical entity then it can be mapped.
>
> Cheers
> Dave F.
>
>
>



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Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support

[Steve Bennett]

On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:01 AM, Lennard  wrote:

> Yes, it is. It falls under bridge=*, i.e. every occurence of the bridge
> tag on certain highway types will render a bridge. This conveniently
> catches other exotic instances, like bridge=swing, bridge=span, etc. But
> as always, the devil is in the details, as there are numerous places
> where bridges are handled, in the mapnik stylesheet, and other places
> just look at bridge=yes/true/1 and not *.
>
>
> PS: Steve, it's best if you filtered the output to not show 'length'.
> That's not a key that's pulled from OSM. It's generated internally. Same
> goes for 'point', 'way_area' and 'z_order'

Great, this is the kind of info I was hoping would turn up. With your
rules for the different words that mean "bridge", they would be a good
candidate for standardising across renderers, right? List the rules in
one place, then use them globally...

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] Lake Nasser not rendering

[David Groom]

  - Original Message - 
  From: Peter Dörrie 
  To: talk@openstreetmap.org 
  Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 1:24 PM
  Subject: [OSM-talk] Lake Nasser not rendering


  Hi,

  what is the reason, that lake nasser in upper egypt is not rendering in 
Mapnik? 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=23.96481&lon=32.88516&zoom=15&layers=B000FTF

  There is new yahoo imagery available and I would like to refiine the lake, 
but would prefer solving the rende problem beforehand.

  Greetings,

  Peter


It might be that the natural= water tag was missing from the multipolygon 
relation. I have just added it to see if it makes a difference.

David
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Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support

[Lennard]

Dave F. wrote:

> This 'supports' needs clarifying.

I added shop in osm2pgsql's default.style a while ago, but we haven't 
added any render rules for shop=* yet. Basically, because the planet 
isn't fully reimported every week, it takes some time for the key to be 
available to the main osm.org mapnik instance. Now that that has been 
done, we could add shop=* rules to mapnik, but steve8 might have some 
ideas on how he would like to approach that.

Also, external users of the mapnik stylesheet and osm2pgsql's 
default.style could be in for a surprise if we move too quickly on new 
keys added to the conversion, and I think it's better to take a few 
weeks between adding it to osm2pgsql and adding the first rules, if 
there is no hurry otherwise.

> For example you list bridge=aqueduct as yes, yet it doesn't render.
> So what is the difference in meaning between support & render?

> Apologize Steve. A bit of brain fade. I was thinking of viaduct, which 
> clearly isn't listed.

Yes, it is. It falls under bridge=*, i.e. every occurence of the bridge 
tag on certain highway types will render a bridge. This conveniently 
catches other exotic instances, like bridge=swing, bridge=span, etc. But 
as always, the devil is in the details, as there are numerous places 
where bridges are handled, in the mapnik stylesheet, and other places 
just look at bridge=yes/true/1 and not *.


PS: Steve, it's best if you filtered the output to not show 'length'. 
That's not a key that's pulled from OSM. It's generated internally. Same 
goes for 'point', 'way_area' and 'z_order'

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] My Experiments with Mapping

[Pieren]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Shalabh  wrote:
> Oh! and did I mention the interview was never published

No, really ? And what's that:
http://www.aujourdhuilinde.com/actualites-inde-en-inde-les-cartographes-du-net-ont-la-vie-dure-4290.asp?1=1

from Anna Guzzini

Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] My Experiments with Mapping

[Shalabh]

There I am caught unawares again!! Silly me :)

Anyway, what is done is done. So long post will torture a lot of you and I
hope please some of you.

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 7:02 PM, Dave F.  wrote:

> Shalabh wrote:
>
>> And because OSM does not have a blog...
>>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/diary
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] My Experiments with Mapping

[Dave F.]

Shalabh wrote:
> And because OSM does not have a blog...
http://www.openstreetmap.org/diary

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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[Dave F.]

paul youlten wrote:
> But it is still a street map that we are making - administrative
> boundaries, top secret government installations, Al Qaeda training
> camps, water catchment areas and so on are fascinating (and probably
> great fun to map) but they are not necessarily part of a street map.
>
> PY
>
>   
Paul

I think you have a slightly narrow perspective of OSM.

Yes, it has street in the title & yes, it says "/such as street maps" 
/in the tag line, but it doesn't say 'only' street maps.

Do you think parks, pubs, recycling centres etc shouldn't be mapped?

If it's a physical entity then it can be mapped.

Cheers
Dave F.



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[OSM-talk] My Experiments with Mapping

[Shalabh]

Amidst the very serious and sometimes interesting licensing discussions,
which I have only been silently following, I just thought of writing this
small piece on challenges in mapping. And oh yes, I am voting 'YES' to the
ODB License.

Now, this is not an official document, just a slightly exaggerated and 'pun
intended' kind of piece but mostly true account of a mapper's adventures.
And because OSM does not have a blog, it is here. On another note, I think
we should have an OSM blog. Mapping makes for very interesting travelling
and there is so much people who want to could share.

This is a little long, so bear with it but it should be worth it. :) Blog
posted on this link as well:
http://theconfusedandthewandering.blogspot.com/2009/12/my-experiments-with-mapping.html
---
*My Experiments with Mapping

*My apologies go out to Mahatma Gandhi for shamelessly plagiarizing the
title of his autobiography, only in part though. However, if he were to read
this blog post, even he would agree that my Titanic struggle mapping some
parts of India was not too far off his struggle for getting India freedom.
And I have only just started.

For the sake of a short background, mapping caught my fancy when I went mad.
Mad as in quit a good well paying job with a large corporation (the likes of
which OSMers seem to hate so much), started travelling and as happens to all
men who go mad, started day dreaming. Day dreams about getting paid for
travelling!! Day dreams about getting paid for writing!! Ha!! Anyway, I
wanted to map some of the treks I went to and I bought this fancy gadget
called a GPS, a Garmin eTrex Vista Hcx, spending quite a significant portion
of my fortune, only to realize later that this freaking thing tells me my
position at any point with a certain degree of error and it even lies about
that. Talk about a bad start!!

The adventures or experiments, call them what you like, started with mapping
parts of New Delhi and Gurgaon, a suburb of Delhi, at times with a friend
who introduced me to OSM. On a hot afternoon, GPS in lap, hands on a
steering wheel, I would be passing some buildings on the way. Now, as most
of you would know, a mapper does not see buildings, parks, hotels, greens. All
he ever sees is 'POIs'. POIs everywhere, left, right, center, POIs floating
around in the air, each trying to catch his attention. And oh my! None of
them on OSM. What blasphemy! So, each POI was marked on the 'GPS in the
lap'. Since I only have 2 hands, I just remembered the names of the POIs and
kept repeating them till I could park the car and take them down in my
notebook.

A tough initiation was followed by an even tougher experience. One fine day,
Nishant (the friend and OSM mentor) comes and says 'I have to go for an
interview..with a journalist'. And I was flummoxed. I mean, fine he is a
great computer guy, believes in open source, I can maybe credit him with
some intelligence and so on and so forth but who would want to interview
this unbathed, shabbily dressed, half obese specimen of human filth? Then he
tells me its some French journalist girl, who wants to interview an OSM
mapper in India. Do I need to tell anyone here that French and girl got me
going and I wanted to be the one interviewed but like we all make
compromises, I had to live with Nishant as part of the interview.

After we chatted a bit, she wanted to see how we mapped. Shalabh in the
driving seat, French girl next to him, Nishant relegated to the back seat
with the moronic GPS and we were off. Off to a residential area managed by
DLF, a building company whose tagline says 'Building India'. I will reserve
my comments on the tagline for later but we parked the car after sometime
and started walking along the lanes, the poor studious Nishant taking down
the POIs. We had walked maybe a few hundred metres when a motorbike
approaches us. The rider is wearing a blue jacket with the words DLF QRT
(Quick Response Team) written on the back. And then he starts mishandling
us. Dont worry, I meant verbal mishandling. Asking all sorts of questions.
What are you doing? Mapping. What mapping? We are making a map. Who asked
you to make a map? We are volunteers. Who asked you to volunteer? What is
that in your hand (pointing to the GPS)? What are you noting down in that
pad? Ok, now the questions got a little too much and I was aware at the back
of my mind that this was a residential area and somewhere there would be
some board saying 'No Trespassing' and we could very well be qualified as
trespassers. POIs notes were torn, handed over to Mr. QRT, a silently angry
Nishant was pulled away and we lost half an hour worth of POIs and tracks.

Oh! and did I mention the interview was

[OSM-talk] Lake Nasser not rendering

[Peter Dörrie]

Hi,

what is the reason, that lake nasser in upper egypt is not rendering in
Mapnik?
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=23.96481&lon=32.88516&zoom=15&layers=B000FTF

There is new yahoo imagery available and I would like to refiine the lake,
but would prefer solving the rende problem beforehand.

Greetings,

Peter
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Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support

[Dave F.]

Apologize Steve. A bit of brain fade. I was thinking of viaduct, which 
clearly isn't listed.

Sorry
Dave F.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[paul youlten]

But it is still a street map that we are making - administrative
boundaries, top secret government installations, Al Qaeda training
camps, water catchment areas and so on are fascinating (and probably
great fun to map) but they are not necessarily part of a street map.

PY

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Steve Bennett  wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:39 PM, paul youlten  wrote:
>> James,
>>
>> I am sure there are other examples of things that can't be easily
>> mapped by humans walking, cycling and kayaking around (drains,
>> underground tunnels and long lines of electricity pylons spring to
>> mind). Luckily street maps don't usually depend on these things to be
>> useful.
>
> And of course all the places people just aren't allowed to visit:
> private property, military areas, water catchments. And as has been
> pointed out, many boundaries don't have a physical manifestation that
> can be mapped. How on earth would you map council boundaries equipped
> just with a gps? National park boundaries? How would you name the tag
> the zillions of little bush tracks that have names but no signs?
>
> I'm not sure what proportion of the data we want can be collected
> using ground surveying with a gps alone, but it's far from 100%.
>
> Steve
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] What is there to be won by having a License

[Niklas Cholmkvist]

> I still have to see the advantage of having a license at all.

Do you live in a country that has signed the Berne Convention? You can see
here at wikipedia if your country is involved:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_international_copyright_agreements

Having no license at all and while your country has signed the Berne
Convention means legally "don't touch my work, unless you ask, and I
willingly give you my permission". Suddenly lots of things become illegal,
unless you provide a notice saying for example "without asking me for
permission I grant you commercial or non-commercial use, and you can change
this data and distribute the data etc etc..

Niklas

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Results of the opinion poll about Odbl for OSM

[Steve Bennett]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Pieren  wrote:
> For the  340+ who replied, we have:
> 30% "yes, I will accept the new license Odbl"
> 45% "yes and consider all my data Public domain (no restrictions)"
> 3% "no, I will not accept the new license Odbl but I will if the
> license is reworked"
> 10% "no, I will not accept the new license Odbl and wants to continue
> with the CC-BY-SA2.0 license"
> 12% "I don't know yet because I don't understand the new license or
> the possible consequences"

So the number of people actually opposed to the Odbl is somewhere
between 10 and 25%. That's a great result. (In the sense that
unanimity is great.)

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[Steve Bennett]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:39 PM, paul youlten  wrote:
> James,
>
> I am sure there are other examples of things that can't be easily
> mapped by humans walking, cycling and kayaking around (drains,
> underground tunnels and long lines of electricity pylons spring to
> mind). Luckily street maps don't usually depend on these things to be
> useful.

And of course all the places people just aren't allowed to visit:
private property, military areas, water catchments. And as has been
pointed out, many boundaries don't have a physical manifestation that
can be mapped. How on earth would you map council boundaries equipped
just with a gps? National park boundaries? How would you name the tag
the zillions of little bush tracks that have names but no signs?

I'm not sure what proportion of the data we want can be collected
using ground surveying with a gps alone, but it's far from 100%.

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support

[Steve Bennett]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Dave F.  wrote:
> This 'supports' needs clarifying.
>
> For example you list bridge=aqueduct as yes, yet it doesn't render.
> So what is the difference in meaning between support & render?

The term "recognises" is probably better than "supports". I guess the
definition is something like "is at least dimly aware of".

Looking at that specific case, the code that triggered its inclusion
in the table is this:


waterway-bridges

  (select way,name from &prefix;_line
where waterway='canal' and bridge in ('yes','true','1','aqueduct')
order by z_order) as water
  &datasource-settings;



and this:

water_lines

  
  (select way,waterway,disused,name,
  case when tunnel in ('yes','true','1') then 'yes'::text else
tunnel end as tunnel
  from &prefix;_line
  where waterway in
('weir','river','canal','derelict_canal','stream','drain')
and (bridge is null or bridge not in ('yes','true','1','aqueduct'))
  order by z_order
  ) as water_lines
  &datasource-settings;



So I guess while it may not have particular graphics associated with
it, bridge=aqueduct ways will get rendered at a higher z-order than
other sources of water, for instance. I'm sure a Mapnik expert can
fill us in on all the implications.

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support

[Dave F.]

Steve Bennett wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:19 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves  wrote:
>   
>> nice - and I wonder why mapnik does not support the shop tag? Is there some
>> policy reason, or is it just that no one has got around to it yet?
>> 
>
> If you look closely, it supports "shop=*" - that is, it recognises the
> shop tag (well, osm2pgsql does), but no specific values for it.
>
> Any other tags that we can check by hand?
>
> Steve
>
>   
Steve

This 'supports' needs clarifying.

For example you list bridge=aqueduct as yes, yet it doesn't render.
So what is the difference in meaning between support & render?

Cheers
Dave F.

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Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support

[Steve Bennett]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:19 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves  wrote:
> nice - and I wonder why mapnik does not support the shop tag? Is there some
> policy reason, or is it just that no one has got around to it yet?

If you look closely, it supports "shop=*" - that is, it recognises the
shop tag (well, osm2pgsql does), but no specific values for it.

Any other tags that we can check by hand?

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] Results of the opinion poll about Odbl for OSM

[Pieren]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 12:15 PM, John Smith  wrote:
> 2009/12/11 Pieren :

> That is until someone edits said PD data and then they want their
> edits under ODBL at which point it's no longer PD...
>

Again, I did not create this option myself. This will be one of the
three possible answers on the final vote.

See this message from Frederik where he explaines why this option is present:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-December/045396.html

Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[paul youlten]

34,218 kilometres of beautiful, sunny coastline.

... sounds like you need to organise a huge mapping party...

... or maybe someone should set up a OSM-au holiday company - people
in Northern Europe would pay good money to go on that sort of mapping
adventure.

PY

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 11:11 AM, John Smith  wrote:
> 2009/12/11 Elizabeth Dodd :
>> so we don't need imported data?
>>
>> --  Forwarded Message  --
>>
>> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business
>> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009
>> From: paul youlten 
>> To: Liz 
>>
>> Liz,
>>
>> The coastline I did back in the "old days" was between Hastings in
>> Sussex and Folkestone in Kent. I did this by walking along the high
>> tide mark with my GPS. Bits of coastline that were inaccessible (e.g:
>> Harbors, cliffs and off shore islands) were done with the assistance
>> of Yahoo Aerial photos.
>
> Ok Paul, when you have enough time and energy to map 34,218 kilometres
> (21,262 mi) of coastline (excluding all offshore islands) of Australia
> let us know, in the mean time we will be making do with the imported
> data we have.
>
> We also don't have access to aerial imagery except a small fraction of
> the 7.8 million sq km of land mass, although with your help/donations
> I'm sure we could possibly get some more.
>
> In short put your money where your mouth is.
>
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>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Replacing Google with OSM

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El Viernes, 11 de Diciembre de 2009, Steve Chilton escribió:
> A little while ago I saw a note somewhere about some neat code to
> replace Google maps with OSM in a web application.

I think you mean either the osmify bookmarklet:

http://blog.johnmckerrell.com/2007/12/31/new-version-of-osmify-bookmarklet/

Or the GMaps API example in the wiki:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Google_Maps_Example


Cheers,
-- 
--
Iván Sánchez Ortega 

La paciencia es amarga, pero sus frutos son dulces.- J. J. Rousseau.


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[OSM-talk] Replacing Google with OSM

[Steve Chilton]

A little while ago I saw a note somewhere about some neat code to
replace Google maps with OSM in a web application.
I know a website that is using Google maps (with clickable location pins
in place) that I would like to suggest uses OSM as it's base layer. They
are probably OK to use the code that was suggested to change their
site's map, but not to switch to Openlayers and redo the overlays (if
you get my drift).

Can someone point me to a link or mail thread please?

Cheers
STEVE

Steve Chilton, Learning Support Fellow
Manager of e-Learning Academic Development
Centre for Educational Technology
Middlesex University
phone/fax: 020 8411 5355
email: ste...@mdx.ac.uk
http://www.mdx.ac.uk/aboutus/elearning/chiltons.asp

Chair of the Society of Cartographers: http://www.soc.org.uk/

SoC conference 2009:
http://www.soc.org.uk/southampton09/



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[OSM-talk] ODL switch, will data be removed ?

[sly (sylvain letuffe)]

Hi,

Sorry in advance for the noob's question regarding the ongoing licence 
discussion, but I feel this might be an important matter to answer 
for "watching guys like me"

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Implementation_Plan 
says :

"Week 13
* Final cut-off. Community Question... What do we do with the people who 
have said no or not responded? "

This seams strange to me not to answer this before the question is asked, 
obviously, my feeling or answer is based on the "what will happen to data" 
(and not only mine, all data I have access right now)

To make it like azimov's laws, here is my personnal tree decision priority (no 
n+1 rule can overwrite a n rule):

1) I want the data to be free to use
2) I want the data to be accessible
3) I want it's licence to be clear and efficient

*1) free as "libre"
*2) no point in having a super licence to missing data
*3) ODL seams to fits best my wiches, but CC does not that badly

The 2 VS 3 is of course a matter of magnitude, If I'm sure none of the data I 
use, modified, or created will become unavailable, then that's perfect, if 
all is to be removed, then that's horrible. 
Is there a threshold consensus ? In other terms, what percentage lost will be 
accepted until the licence change is abandonned ?

I do understand that the vote outcome whould probably be different if that 
question is answered, so will this answer be... after the vote

A two rounds voting might help maybe ? (And the gun will only be used on the 
second round, which might not be what some want)
-- 
sly 
Sylvain Letuffe li...@letuffe.org
qui suis-je : http://slyserv.dyndns.org




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Re: [OSM-talk] Results of the opinion poll about Odbl for OSM

[John Smith]

2009/12/11 Pieren :
> 45% "yes and consider all my data Public domain (no restrictions)"

That is until someone edits said PD data and then they want their
edits under ODBL at which point it's no longer PD...

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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[John Smith]

2009/12/11 Elizabeth Dodd :
> so we don't need imported data?
>
> --  Forwarded Message  --
>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business
> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009
> From: paul youlten 
> To: Liz 
>
> Liz,
>
> The coastline I did back in the "old days" was between Hastings in
> Sussex and Folkestone in Kent. I did this by walking along the high
> tide mark with my GPS. Bits of coastline that were inaccessible (e.g:
> Harbors, cliffs and off shore islands) were done with the assistance
> of Yahoo Aerial photos.

Ok Paul, when you have enough time and energy to map 34,218 kilometres
(21,262 mi) of coastline (excluding all offshore islands) of Australia
let us know, in the mean time we will be making do with the imported
data we have.

We also don't have access to aerial imagery except a small fraction of
the 7.8 million sq km of land mass, although with your help/donations
I'm sure we could possibly get some more.

In short put your money where your mouth is.

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Re: [OSM-talk] And the prize for the largest closed way goes to...

[Dirk-Lüder Kreie]

Anthony schrieb:
> 2009/12/10 Dirk-Lüder Kreie  >
> 
> Anthony schrieb:
>  > That does it, I'm making a way with name=Northern Hemisphere.  Or
> would
>  > that be name=equator.  Doesn't work, does it?
> 
> No, you can't put in the equator as a *closed* way, since the API
> doesn't allow the way to wrap around on lon+-180°.
> 
> 
> How does the API determine whether or not a way is closed?  

The "first" node is simply referenced a second time at the "end".

> Isn't it up to the software at the other end of the API to interpret a 
> way which goes from -179 degrees to +179 degrees along the equator?

(JFTR: -180 and +180 degrees are valid longitudes.)

> I assumed (I guess incorrectly), that most software would interpret that 
> as the shortest possible line - a line with a length of 2 degrees, not a 
> line with a length of 358 degrees.

Yes, your assumption was wrong, the software does no wrapping around at 
the 180° Meridian. (currently)

-- 
Dirk-Lüder "Deelkar" Kreie
Bremen - 53.0901°N 8.7868°E


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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[Dave F.]

paul youlten wrote:
> James,
>
> I am sure there are other examples of things that can't be easily
> mapped by humans walking, cycling and kayaking around (drains,
> underground tunnels and long lines of electricity pylons spring to
> mind). Luckily street maps don't usually depend on these things to be
> useful.
Really Paul? Says who?

When walking I find pylon positions extremely useful for navigation.
Please don't assume others use maps in exactly the same way you do.

Cheers
Dave F.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[Lester Caine]

Elizabeth Dodd wrote:
> so we don't need imported data?

Only where it is actually adding information. When it is overwriting data that 
may well be more accurate - then no we don't ?

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

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Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[vegard]

We do. There are data that are not so easiliy trackable.

Borders, for example, are almost impossible to track yourself, unless you
have a textual and non-ambiguous description, like "follows this river".

Which reminds me of the project I had looked forward to do: Canoeing the
russian-norwegian border river with a GPS :) Unfortunately, we got the
data through other means :)

- Vegard

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 09:02:09PM +1100, Elizabeth Dodd wrote:
> so we don't need imported data?
> 
> --  Forwarded Message  --
> 
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business
> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009
> From: paul youlten 
> To: Liz 
> 
> Liz,
> 
> The coastline I did back in the "old days" was between Hastings in
> Sussex and Folkestone in Kent. I did this by walking along the high
> tide mark with my GPS. Bits of coastline that were inaccessible (e.g:
> Harbors, cliffs and off shore islands) were done with the assistance
> of Yahoo Aerial photos.
> 
> Really, we made perfectly good street maps without importing data for
> some years before people started bulk importing data.
> 
> PY
> 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Liz  wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 Dec 2009, paul youlten wrote:
> >> Saying "This would be a disaster" is a bit hyperbolic. Sure, people
> >> who hate OSMapping and just want to use bulk imports will be very,
> >> very disappointed, and possibly even a bit upset that they actually
> >> have to go out into the real world and make maps.  ;-)
> >
> > I find your attitude very difficult to understand.
> > You may feel that we shouldn't use any information that we can get from
> > 'elsewhere' but you might like to check your own country. If it has a
> > coastline, was it mapped by an OSM mapper in a kayak or was it imported 
> data?
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tel: +44(0) 7814 517 807
> 
> ---
> -- 
> BOFH excuse #193:
> 
> Did you pay the new Support Fee?
> 
> 
> ___
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-- 
- Vegard Engen, member of the first RFC1149 implementation team.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[paul youlten]

James,

I am sure there are other examples of things that can't be easily
mapped by humans walking, cycling and kayaking around (drains,
underground tunnels and long lines of electricity pylons spring to
mind). Luckily street maps don't usually depend on these things to be
useful.

PY



On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 10:26 AM, James Livingston  wrote:
> On 11/12/2009, at 8:02 PM, Elizabeth Dodd wrote:
>> so we don't need imported data?
>
> In most cases we don't need imported data, but it can be useful. For example 
> rather than painstakingly crafting the entire coastline of Australia from a 
> few GPS traces and a lot of imagery (much is relatively inaccessible), we can 
> import it from someone's dataset and spend that large amount of time doing 
> other things to improve OSM that we can't import data for.
>
> There are also some things where importing external datasets is the *only* 
> way to get it into OSM. For example boundaries of areas that have no physical 
> edge, just a (not necessarily straight) line on someone decided on at some 
> point in time.
>
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-- 
Tel: +44(0) 7814 517 807

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[OSM-talk] Results of the opinion poll about Odbl for OSM

[Pieren]

Please find attached in this message a pie chart about the 'crappy
poll' results. New contributions to the poll are now very small and
the trends are more or less constant since three days. The numbers
have to be used as they are : nobody knows how good the sample is
representative, only a small number of contributors have been informed
about the poll and although some obvious duplicates have been removed,
it is still possible that some of the participants did not play the
game in all seriousness. When I look the time interval between
identical votes in the history, I still see two or three potential
duplicates where the same reply has been posted within two minutes but
I leaved them.

For the  340+ who replied, we have:
30% "yes, I will accept the new license Odbl"
45% "yes and consider all my data Public domain (no restrictions)"
3% "no, I will not accept the new license Odbl but I will if the
license is reworked"
10% "no, I will not accept the new license Odbl and wants to continue
with the CC-BY-SA2.0 license"
12% "I don't know yet because I don't understand the new license or
the possible consequences"

I will not comment the results myself, it was not my intent. I just
hope that it will reduce the speculations about "what the community
thinks about the new license".
I will close the poll at the same time as the OSMF vote. Feel free to
add your opinion until then:
http://doodle.com/feqszqirqqxi4r7w

Pieren
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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[James Livingston]

On 11/12/2009, at 8:02 PM, Elizabeth Dodd wrote:
> so we don't need imported data?

In most cases we don't need imported data, but it can be useful. For example 
rather than painstakingly crafting the entire coastline of Australia from a few 
GPS traces and a lot of imagery (much is relatively inaccessible), we can 
import it from someone's dataset and spend that large amount of time doing 
other things to improve OSM that we can't import data for.

There are also some things where importing external datasets is the *only* way 
to get it into OSM. For example boundaries of areas that have no physical edge, 
just a (not necessarily straight) line on someone decided on at some point in 
time.

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Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Friday 11 Dec 2009 3:43:23 pm Steve Bennett wrote:
>  I've been showing my progress on this task to the tag list, but now
> that I have a pretty table, I'll show it here:
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Stevage/tagsupport
> 
> This table shows whether the main OSM stylesheets in each of Mapnik
> and Osmarenderer support each of the given tags. The definition of
> "support" is pretty flimsy: basically I'm just scanning for
> expressions like "wetland='bog'". Still, I think it gives a bit of an
> idea.
> 

nice - and I wonder why mapnik does not support the shop tag? Is there some 
policy reason, or is it just that no one has got around to it yet?
-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Senior Project Officer
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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[OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support

[Steve Bennett]

Hi all,
  I've been showing my progress on this task to the tag list, but now
that I have a pretty table, I'll show it here:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Stevage/tagsupport

This table shows whether the main OSM stylesheets in each of Mapnik
and Osmarenderer support each of the given tags. The definition of
"support" is pretty flimsy: basically I'm just scanning for
expressions like "wetland='bog'". Still, I think it gives a bit of an
idea.

Would love to hear from anyone who thinks this is useful, or would
like to suggest the next steps (ie, potlatch, merkaartor...)

It's generated from a pretty hefty (300 line) XSLT 2.0 stylesheet.

Steve

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[OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business

[Elizabeth Dodd]

so we don't need imported data?

--  Forwarded Message  --

Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009
From: paul youlten 
To: Liz 

Liz,

The coastline I did back in the "old days" was between Hastings in
Sussex and Folkestone in Kent. I did this by walking along the high
tide mark with my GPS. Bits of coastline that were inaccessible (e.g:
Harbors, cliffs and off shore islands) were done with the assistance
of Yahoo Aerial photos.

Really, we made perfectly good street maps without importing data for
some years before people started bulk importing data.

PY


On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Liz  wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Dec 2009, paul youlten wrote:
>> Saying "This would be a disaster" is a bit hyperbolic. Sure, people
>> who hate OSMapping and just want to use bulk imports will be very,
>> very disappointed, and possibly even a bit upset that they actually
>> have to go out into the real world and make maps.  ;-)
>
> I find your attitude very difficult to understand.
> You may feel that we shouldn't use any information that we can get from
> 'elsewhere' but you might like to check your own country. If it has a
> coastline, was it mapped by an OSM mapper in a kayak or was it imported 
data?
>
>
>



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[OSM-talk] Yahoo! and ODbL

[paul youlten]

Do we know what Yahoo! think of the proposed change?


PY

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business

[Paul Wagener]

Op 11 dec 2009, om 10:11 heeft John Smith het volgende geschreven:

> 2009/12/11 Paul Wagener :
>> This might sound like a crazy idea, but can't we just ask businesses
>> nicely about giving us their added data back?
>> It has already got us this far. You'd be surprised how far a little
>> mutual trust can get you.
>
> Isn't that in essence what licenses are for?

No, the licenses are for forcing businesses to give us their added  
data back.
That is something else entirely.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business

[Lester Caine]

John Smith wrote:
> 2009/12/11 Paul Wagener :
>> This might sound like a crazy idea, but can't we just ask businesses
>> nicely about giving us their added data back?
>> It has already got us this far. You'd be surprised how far a little
>> mutual trust can get you.
> 
> Isn't that in essence what licenses are for?

That is the entire crux of this problem ... CAN we trust commercial 
organizations with big bank balances to play fair. I think the answer has to be 
'NO' so we need the DATA protected a little better .

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business

[paul youlten]

Saying "This would be a disaster" is a bit hyperbolic. Sure, people
who hate OSMapping and just want to use bulk imports will be very,
very disappointed, and possibly even a bit upset that they actually
have to go out into the real world and make maps.  ;-)


On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 8:54 AM, John Smith  wrote:
> 2009/12/11 Anthony :
>> I see no evidence that that's the case.  I don't think attempting to impose
>> a contractual agreement on others without their consent is going to work,
>> and I think there will be significant negative side-effects to such immoral
>> behavior.
>
> I don't think immoral is the right word here, people are trying to
> come up with a suitable method to make sure everyone is playing fair,
> if the data is improved isn't it only fair that the entire community
> benefits from it, since whom ever improved it is obviously benefiting
> from OSM data in the first place.
>
> Some would see it as immoral to not give back such changes to the community.
>
> While I agree with ODBL in principal, the devil is always in the
> details and I'm still trying to find somewhere to obtain Australian
> legal advice as to how this may adversely effect the Australian OSM
> community.
>
>> Plus I think OSM is going to lose a huge chunk of the database over this.
>
> This would be a disaster, but some have already mentioned having a
> read only database with non-ODBL data and then combining it on the
> tile server to get round this problem, the problem with that of course
> is how to remove non-ODBL data when ODBL data becomes available, since
> you wouldn't easily be able to edit or remove such data from a read
> only database.
>



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Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business

[John Smith]

2009/12/11 Paul Wagener :
> This might sound like a crazy idea, but can't we just ask businesses
> nicely about giving us their added data back?
> It has already got us this far. You'd be surprised how far a little
> mutual trust can get you.

Isn't that in essence what licenses are for?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business

[Paul Wagener]

This might sound like a crazy idea, but can't we just ask businesses  
nicely about giving us their added data back?
It has already got us this far. You'd be surprised how far a little  
mutual trust can get you.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business

[John Smith]

2009/12/11 Anthony :
> I see no evidence that that's the case.  I don't think attempting to impose
> a contractual agreement on others without their consent is going to work,
> and I think there will be significant negative side-effects to such immoral
> behavior.

I don't think immoral is the right word here, people are trying to
come up with a suitable method to make sure everyone is playing fair,
if the data is improved isn't it only fair that the entire community
benefits from it, since whom ever improved it is obviously benefiting
from OSM data in the first place.

Some would see it as immoral to not give back such changes to the community.

While I agree with ODBL in principal, the devil is always in the
details and I'm still trying to find somewhere to obtain Australian
legal advice as to how this may adversely effect the Australian OSM
community.

> Plus I think OSM is going to lose a huge chunk of the database over this.

This would be a disaster, but some have already mentioned having a
read only database with non-ODBL data and then combining it on the
tile server to get round this problem, the problem with that of course
is how to remove non-ODBL data when ODBL data becomes available, since
you wouldn't easily be able to edit or remove such data from a read
only database.

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