[talk-ph] dumaguete has no resident mapper

2011-04-19 Thread maning sambale
I've started adding small updates around Dumaguete downtown area.  I
have to say that basic roads around downtown is complete.

http://osm.org/go/4nuN_4ab

Thanks to previous contributors.

My schedule during my stay is limited so I wasn't able to bike beyond
downtown (plus the fact that the weather last week is so hot).  One
thing I noticed though, is that there are no resident contributor in
Dumaguete (I suspect all previous contributors are visitors).  If you
have friends living in the city please show them our map and
demonstrate how they can contribute.

-- 
cheers,
maning
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[talk-ph] slippy map showing admin boundaries

2011-04-19 Thread maning sambale
A map showing administrative overlays
http://beta.letuffe.org/?zoom=6lat=13.00511lon=121.23799layers=BFFFTTFTFTFFF

admin_level=4 is still incomplete.

-- 
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maning
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Re: [talk-ph] slippy map showing admin boundaries

2011-04-19 Thread Eugene Alvin Villar
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 9:05 PM, maning sambale
emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote:
 A map showing administrative overlays
 http://beta.letuffe.org/?zoom=6lat=13.00511lon=121.23799layers=BFFFTTFTFTFFF

 admin_level=4 is still incomplete.

Nice! It makes spotting the missing relations much easier!

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Re: [talk-ph] dumaguete has no resident mapper

2011-04-19 Thread Jim Morgan


maning sambale wrote, On Tuesday, 19 April, 2011 08:56 PM:
 I've started adding small updates around Dumaguete downtown area.  I
 have to say that basic roads around downtown is complete.
 
 http://osm.org/go/4nuN_4ab
 
 Thanks to previous contributors.

Hah. I went there about a month ago. Nice city! Hope you made it up to Hayahay 
bar for a beer afterwards. :-) Siquijor was nice too ... 

I must say you've cleaned up the map a bit. I was only walking around, so just 
did the main bits of the city centre. 

 If you have friends living in the city please show them our map and
 demonstrate how they can contribute.

I don't know anyone there. Maybe the University would be interested ... plenty 
of keen students to work with. 

Jim

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Are CT contributors are in breach of the CC-BY-SA license?

2011-04-19 Thread Francis Davey
On 19 April 2011 01:27, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:

Where?  The only reference I see to sublicense is You may not sublicense
 the Work.


See my earlier remarks. 4(b) permits the distribution (amongst other things)
of a Derivative Work under a licence (which might not be a CC licence) other
than the one under which the Work was licensed. i.e. Y licenses rather than
X (using our original terminology) which makes it a sublicence - though it
is not called that.

Y can't license a work to which Y doesn't own the copyright, unless Y has
 permission to sublicense the work.  And CC-BY-SA specifically disallows
 sublicensing.



We can agree to disagree on this perhaps. I'm confident that I could
persuade a judge that a licence given by Y is binding on Y. As a general
rule though I may not give what I do not have, I may licence the use of that
which I do not have the power to licence and that licence, though not valid
against the real owner is valid against me. Its a feature of relativity of
title and/or estoppel. I don't know what your jurisdiction is, so it may be
you don't have those concepts there.

But its probably not worth the time arguing over it.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Rights granted to OSMF (Section 2 of the CT)

2011-04-19 Thread ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen
Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Rights granted to OSMF (Section 2 of the
CT)

On 18/04/11 22:41, Simon Ward wrote:
 
 The only restriction I have seen is that some software developers 
 perceive reciprocal licences as a hindrance because the reciprocal 
 licenses prevent them from removing freedoms from the end user.

Yes they never seem to work out that they are users as well.

 The GPL doesn't explicitly mention commercial distribution (except 
 for when providing an offer of source code), but does say that 
 charging for the software is not excluded.  I think that is far less
ambiguous.

The CTs are more similar to the FSD than the GPL. The FSD states:

Free software does not mean noncommercial. A free program must be
available for commercial use, commercial development, and commercial
distribution. 

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

- Rob.


 
CT 1.2.4  (http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Contributor_Terms)

citatation
Rights Granted :
Subject to Section 3 and 4 below, You hereby grant to OSMF a worldwide,
royalty-free, non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable licence to do any
act that is restricted by copyright, database right or any related right
over anything within the Contents, whether in the original medium or any
other.

These rights *explicitly*  include commercial use, and do not exclude
any field of endeavour.
citation off

But this phrase in article 2 is directed to OSMF (which we grant certain
rights) as the previous phrase says so. And
OSMF limits itself to non-commercial activities only. There is something
wrong here...
Especially as it states explicitly. Commercial use is not just
allowed, but explicitly allowed.

Instead he original phrase sounds hostile to me... what about you ?

Ths phrass could have been something like:

You hereby grant OSM(F) a blablabla license to do any act to stimulate
open and free application of OSM geodata , these acts being subject to
approval of the OSMF members and 2/3rd of the active memberpool of OSM.


The license could  refer to a number of well established organisations
in the open and free world for definitons and limitations, or list those
in full.


Regards,

Gert. 



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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Rights granted to OSMF (Section 2 of the CT)

2011-04-19 Thread Richard Fairhurst
ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote:
 [some hard-to-follow stuff]

Gert - could you quote in the same way that everyone else does, please? i.e.
no top-posting, snip the bits of the message you're replying to, prefix each
line of quoting with  , line-wrap your quotes properly. It would make it
much much easier to work out what you're on about.

Thanks.

Richard



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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Rights granted to OSMF (Section 2 of the CT)

2011-04-19 Thread Rob Myers
On 19/04/11 11:18, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote:
 
 Instead he original phrase sounds hostile to me... what about you ?

The rights need to be granted in that way so they can be passed on to users.

So, no, it doesn't sound hostile. It sounds like it makes the operation
of OSMF in-keeping with its charter possible.

- Rob.



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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-19 Thread Thomas Davie

On 19 Apr 2011, at 01:15, David Murn wrote:

 On Mon, 2011-04-18 at 11:53 -0700, Steve Coast wrote:
 ...which is ignoring the 70% or so of all of those people who never 
 edited and can be switched over without incident.
 
 That sounds like the thinking of the parties in a real vote, 'if
 everyone who didnt vote, voted for us, we would have wiped the floor'
 Changing that 70% doesnt have any 'incident' but they can hardly be
 counted has casting their vote either way.  This means that if 30% are
 active users, 3.8% means just over 12% of people have voted.

The thing you're not understanding is that this isn't a vote.  It's an 
agreement to distribute your work under a new license.  That 70% *have* agreed 
to distribute their work under the new license.  It is entirely valid for the 
camp that wants to move to the ODbL sooner rather than later to count the 70% 
in their stats, because accepting the new license is all that matters, not some 
imaginary war between yes and no.

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[OSM-talk] the 70% , was Re: License graph

2011-04-19 Thread David Groom
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com

To: David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] License graph



On 19 Apr 2011, at 01:15, David Murn wrote:


On Mon, 2011-04-18 at 11:53 -0700, Steve Coast wrote:

...which is ignoring the 70% or so of all of those people who never
edited and can be switched over without incident.


That sounds like the thinking of the parties in a real vote, 'if
everyone who didnt vote, voted for us, we would have wiped the floor'
Changing that 70% doesnt have any 'incident' but they can hardly be
counted has casting their vote either way.  This means that if 30% are
active users, 3.8% means just over 12% of people have voted.


The thing you're not understanding is that this isn't a vote.  It's an 
agreement to distribute your work under a new license.


No, the CT's  are an agreement to contribute work, not to distribute it.


That 70% *have* agreed to distribute their work under the new license.  It 
is entirely valid for the camp that wants to move to the ODbL sooner 
rather than later to count the 70% in their stats, because accepting the 
new license is all that matters, not some imaginary war between yes and 
no.




It's not valid to count people who haven't voted in the YES statistics. 
Its valid to say all the people who have never edited would automatically 
have agreed to the CT's, any more than it is valid to say that all the 
people who have never edited would not have agreed to the CT's.


Nor is it valid to simply switch these people over to the  new CT's without 
incident.  OK, don't let these people edit without agreeing to the new CT's, 
but to simply switch their accounts to the new CT's on the assumption they 
would agree, and it doesn't affect ant data currently in the OSM database, 
is not right.


David




Bob






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[OSM-talk] the 70%, was License graph

2011-04-19 Thread David Groom
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com

To: David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] License graph



On 19 Apr 2011, at 01:15, David Murn wrote:


On Mon, 2011-04-18 at 11:53 -0700, Steve Coast wrote:

...which is ignoring the 70% or so of all of those people who never
edited and can be switched over without incident.


That sounds like the thinking of the parties in a real vote, 'if
everyone who didnt vote, voted for us, we would have wiped the floor'
Changing that 70% doesnt have any 'incident' but they can hardly be
counted has casting their vote either way.  This means that if 30% are
active users, 3.8% means just over 12% of people have voted.


The thing you're not understanding is that this isn't a vote.  It's an
agreement to distribute your work under a new license.


No, the CT's  are an agreement to contribute work, not to distribute it.



That 70% *have* agreed to distribute their work under the new license.  It
is entirely valid for the camp that wants to move to the ODbL sooner
rather than later to count the 70% in their stats, because accepting the
new license is all that matters, not some imaginary war between yes and
no.



It's not valid to count people who haven't voted in the YES statistics.
Its valid to say all the people who have never edited would automatically
have agreed to the CT's, any more than it is valid to say that all the
people who have never edited would not have agreed to the CT's.

Nor is it valid to simply switch these people over to the  new CT's without
incident.  OK, don't let these people edit without agreeing to the new CT's,
but to simply switch their accounts to the new CT's on the assumption they
would agree, and it doesn't affect ant data currently in the OSM database,
is not right.

David






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Re: [OSM-talk] the 70% , was Re: License graph

2011-04-19 Thread Thomas Davie

On 19 Apr 2011, at 09:41, David Groom wrote:

 - Original Message - From: Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com
 
 The thing you're not understanding is that this isn't a vote.  It's an 
 agreement to distribute your work under a new license.
 
 No, the CT's  are an agreement to contribute work, not to distribute it.

Sorry, I misspoke.

 That 70% *have* agreed to distribute their work under the new license.  It 
 is entirely valid for the camp that wants to move to the ODbL sooner rather 
 than later to count the 70% in their stats, because accepting the new 
 license is all that matters, not some imaginary war between yes and no.
 
 
 It's not valid to count people who haven't voted in the YES statistics. Its 
 valid to say all the people who have never edited would automatically have 
 agreed to the CT's, any more than it is valid to say that all the people who 
 have never edited would not have agreed to the CT's.

But again – it's not a matter of voting yes, it's a matter of agreeing to 
contribute under a license.  There's no voting going on here, just a bunch of 
people letting OSM use their changes after the switch, and a bunch not letting 
them.  No one is counting the 70% in the yes vote – instead, they are saying 
this 70% have no impact on us changing to the new license because no data will 
be deleted if we simply dump these users.

 Nor is it valid to simply switch these people over to the  new CT's without 
 incident.  OK, don't let these people edit without agreeing to the new CT's, 
 but to simply switch their accounts to the new CT's on the assumption they 
 would agree, and it doesn't affect ant data currently in the OSM database, is 
 not right.

No one is proposing switching them to the new CTs – what's going to happen is 
that their data (all none of it) is simply going to be dropped.  The biggest 
impact this will have on OSM is that 2 or 3 people will come back in a while 
going didn't I have an account here 2-3 years ago?  Hmm, can't remember the 
name, I'll create a new one and will agree to the new CTs when they sign up 
again.

Bob
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Re: [OSM-talk] the 70% , was Re: License graph

2011-04-19 Thread David Groom


- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com

To: David Groom revi...@pacific-rim.net
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] the 70% , was Re: License graph




On 19 Apr 2011, at 09:41, David Groom wrote:


- Original Message - From: Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com

The thing you're not understanding is that this isn't a vote.  It's an 
agreement to distribute your work under a new license.


No, the CT's  are an agreement to contribute work, not to distribute it.


Sorry, I misspoke.

That 70% *have* agreed to distribute their work under the new license. 
It is entirely valid for the camp that wants to move to the ODbL sooner 
rather than later to count the 70% in their stats, because accepting the 
new license is all that matters, not some imaginary war between yes 
and no.




It's not valid to count people who haven't voted in the YES statistics. 
Its valid to say all the people who have never edited would automatically 
have agreed to the CT's, any more than it is valid to say that all the 
people who have never edited would not have agreed to the CT's.


But again – it's not a matter of voting yes, it's a matter of agreeing to


Note, I did not use the word vote.

contribute under a license.  There's no voting going on here, just a bunch 
of people letting OSM use their changes after the switch, and a bunch not 
letting them.  No one is counting the 70% in the yes vote – instead, 
they are saying this 70% have no impact on us changing to the new license 
because no data will be deleted if we simply dump these users.


In your earlier email you said It is entirely valid for the camp that wants 
to move to the ODbL sooner rather than later to count the 70% in their 
stats.  I'm glad you are now not proposing this should happen




Nor is it valid to simply switch these people over to the  new CT's 
without incident.  OK, don't let these people edit without agreeing to 
the new CT's, but to simply switch their accounts to the new CT's on the 
assumption they would agree, and it doesn't affect ant data currently in 
the OSM database, is not right.


No one is proposing switching them to the new CTs –


In an earlier post it was written which is ignoring the 70% or so of all of 
those people who never
edited and can be switched over without incident.  I took this to mean that 
someone was suggesting they could be switched to the new CT's.


David


what's going to happen is that their data (all none of it) is simply going 
to be dropped.  The biggest impact this will have on OSM is that 2 or 3 
people will come back in a while going didn't I have an account here 2-3 
years ago?  Hmm, can't remember the name, I'll create a new one and will 
agree to the new CTs when they sign up again.


Bob











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Re: [OSM-talk] the 70% , was Re: License graph

2011-04-19 Thread Thomas Davie

On 19 Apr 2011, at 11:09, David Groom wrote:

 
 - Original Message - From: Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com
 
 On 19 Apr 2011, at 09:41, David Groom wrote:
 It's not valid to count people who haven't voted in the YES statistics. 
 Its valid to say all the people who have never edited would automatically 
 have agreed to the CT's, any more than it is valid to say that all the 
 people who have never edited would not have agreed to the CT's.
 
 But again – it's not a matter of voting yes, it's a matter of agreeing to
 
 Note, I did not use the word vote.

It's not valid to count people who haven't voted in the YES 
statistics.[David Groom]
Pretty sure you did.

 contribute under a license.  There's no voting going on here, just a bunch 
 of people letting OSM use their changes after the switch, and a bunch not 
 letting them.  No one is counting the 70% in the yes vote – instead, they 
 are saying this 70% have no impact on us changing to the new license 
 because no data will be deleted if we simply dump these users.
 
 In your earlier email you said It is entirely valid for the camp that wants 
 to move to the ODbL sooner rather than later to count the 70% in their 
 stats.  I'm glad you are now not proposing this should happen

Absolutely I am – the stats are counting the number of people who we will not 
lose data from in the transition.  We will not lose any data from these people 
whether they agree or not, so they're safe and should be counted in the stats.

 Nor is it valid to simply switch these people over to the  new CT's without 
 incident.  OK, don't let these people edit without agreeing to the new 
 CT's, but to simply switch their accounts to the new CT's on the assumption 
 they would agree, and it doesn't affect ant data currently in the OSM 
 database, is not right.
 
 No one is proposing switching them to the new CTs –
 
 In an earlier post it was written which is ignoring the 70% or so of all of 
 those people who never
 edited and can be switched over without incident.  I took this to mean that 
 someone was suggesting they could be switched to the new CT's.

My appologies, maybe they, or I have misunderstood.  I would agree entirely 
that it would be invalid to decide that these people have agreed to the new 
license without letting them ever tick a box.  It would however not be invalid 
simply to block their account and force them to agree, and it would be of no 
detriment to the project.

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Re: [OSM-talk] the 70% , was Re: License graph

2011-04-19 Thread Elizabeth Dodd
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 11:43:06 +0100
Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote:

 We will not lose any data from these people whether they agree or
 not, so they're safe and should be counted in the stats.

Are we counting humans or data?

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Re: [OSM-talk] We Need to Stop Google's Exploitation of Open Communities

2011-04-19 Thread Mike N


On 4/11/2011 11:41 AM, Ian Dees wrote:

When Google turns Google MapMaker on in the US and Europe*, it will
become much harder to recruit new mappers to our community (that is
already quite small). Being passive about this issue means that OSM and
its more-open data will eventually be drowned out by Google's much
greater marketing might.


http://news.cnet.com/8301-19882_3-20055063-250.html

...Google won't take input from other community map sources, like Open 
Street Map or Waze. There are two reasons for this, one of which I got 
from Google, the other unstated. First, the user approval system was 
created for this project and isn't even used by other Google services. 
Adapting it to other user systems is just not on the project plan at the 
moment. The unstated reason: Google's data licensing is incompatible 
with other community maps. OpenStreetMap, for example, uses Creative 
Commons. Google does not: What you put on Google, Google owns




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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-19 Thread Frederik Ramm

Tom, (Bob?),

On 04/19/11 09:09, Thomas Davie wrote:

That 70% *have*
agreed to distribute their work under the new license. It is entirely
valid for the camp that wants to move to the ODbL sooner rather than
later to count the 70% in their stats, because accepting the new license
is all that matters, not some imaginary war between yes and no.


You're entirely right of course and frankly I have no idea what all this 
fuss is about. It's just a graph. It isn't even intended to influence 
anybody. This is documenting what happens, not trying to talk people 
into doing something.


Anyone who is looking for numbers of people agreeing/disagreeing since 
it became mandatory (not counting anybody before that) will find a 
snapshot here: fred.dev.openstreetmap.org (currently 88% vs 12%) - but 
of course these numbers are biased in favour of the naysayers since most 
people who wanted to agree have done so long ago, whereas every single 
person who wants to disagree is counted in the 12%.


One small plea: Could you refrain from saying the camp that wants to 
move to the ODbL. It sounds like it's a small bunch of people when 
indeed it is the overwhelming majority.


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-19 Thread Elizabeth Dodd
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 13:51:06 +0200
Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 One small plea: Could you refrain from saying the camp that wants to 
 move to the ODbL. It sounds like it's a small bunch of people when 
 indeed it is the overwhelming majority.

well that's just meadowdust.
The ODbL camp did not even get a majority of the OSMF members to vote
in favour of the method of changeover.
To make your majority you add in X thousand who joined late and didn't
get a vote, and subtract Y thousand who haven't yet made an edit.

The reason Australians are better at detecting this form of deceit, is
that Australia is the modern home of the gerrymander, and we are very
familiar with how politicians arrange things to stay in power.

Of course, those who can remember a bit further back, recall that
Frederick Ramm is in favour of Public Domain, and not ODbL.
Perhaps if you explain just how your support was bought it would make
more entertaining reading that your recent posts.

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-19 Thread Kenneth Gonsalves
On Tue, 2011-04-19 at 22:14 +1000, Elizabeth Dodd wrote:
 Perhaps if you explain just how your support was bought

this is not acceptable on an open mailing list - or on *any* mailing
list.
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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-19 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

On 04/19/11 14:14, Elizabeth Dodd wrote:

Of course, those who can remember a bit further back, recall that
Frederick Ramm is in favour of Public Domain, and not ODbL.
Perhaps if you explain just how your support was bought it would make
more entertaining reading that your recent posts.


SteveC said he'd let me pilot his private jet if I say yes.

Bye
Frederik


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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-19 Thread Dermot McNally
On 19 April 2011 13:14, Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net wrote:
 On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 13:51:06 +0200
 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 One small plea: Could you refrain from saying the camp that wants to
 move to the ODbL. It sounds like it's a small bunch of people when
 indeed it is the overwhelming majority.

 well that's just meadowdust.
 The ODbL camp did not even get a majority of the OSMF members to vote
 in favour of the method of changeover.
 To make your majority you add in X thousand who joined late and didn't
 get a vote, and subtract Y thousand who haven't yet made an edit.

In addition to lacking skills of politeness it seems you cannot count
either. Since the artificially-fixed epoch of last Sunday - prior to
which over 10,000 users agreed to the change, explicitly, not
automatically - the stats of yes versus no decisions, excluding those
existing yeses, are, as I type this mail:

Yes: 708 (88%)
No: 95 (12%)

Fred describes this as an overwhelming majority. You disagree. based
on some hand-wavy logic and a suggestion of deceit involving new
signups when it is abundantly clear that such new signups do not form
part of the claim you hope to dispute.

Stick to the facts. Learn to add and subtract. Learn some basic human
courtesy. Stop the accusations of deceit when you are the one
presenting the false information.

Dermot

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ja ma oma ei leiagi üles

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-19 Thread Simon Poole

Am 19.04.2011 14:14, schrieb Elizabeth Dodd:

...
To make your majority you add in X thousand who joined late and didn't
get a vote, and subtract Y thousand who haven't yet made an edit.




Elizabeth, please show us just one tally that shows anything but a tiny 
fraction of mappers that have actually contributed data to the project 
opposing the change. And no, nothing that is going to happen is going to 
unearth 10'000s of mappers that share your views.


In a couple of weeks the short term available reservoir of mappers that 
haven't declined or accepted will be exhausted, giving us say a couple 
of thousands of additional agreers and a couple of hundred decliners.


-if- this was a vote, the opposing parties would have conceded defeat a 
long time ago.

The reason Australians are better at detecting this form of deceit, is
I strongly object to being lumped in together with a bunch of people 
that made a couple of really bad decisions and are trying to blackmail 
the OSM community in to giving in to them, instead of trying to fix the 
problems they created.


Simon


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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-19 Thread Richard Weait
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 8:22 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves
law...@thenilgiris.com wrote:
 On Tue, 2011-04-19 at 22:14 +1000, Elizabeth Dodd wrote:
 Perhaps if you explain just how your support was bought

 this is not acceptable on an open mailing list - or on *any* mailing
 list.

Relax, everybody.  Consider the source; this is nothing new, or even
serious from Dr Liz.  She's just being polite.  See her mission
statement from 14 August 2010.

Dr. Liz Quote   I will continue to be somewhat disruptive on the
lists and remain polite while
doing so.

https://groups.google.com/group/osm-fork/msg/a1dd135f3f643679?hl=endmode=source

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Are CT contributors are in breach of the CC-BY-SA license?

2011-04-19 Thread Francis Davey
On 19 April 2011 13:46, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:


 My jurisdiction is Florida.


OK. Mine is England and Wales. Licenses operate on different principles here
as they do with you, so we can leave it there.

-- 
Francis Davey
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Re: [OSM-talk] We Need to Stop Google's Exploitation of Open Communities

2011-04-19 Thread Josh Doe
So here it begins, Google Map Maker now available in the US:
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/04/add-your-local-knowledge-to-map-with.html
http://www.google.com/intl/en_us/help/mapmaker/

-Josh

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 7:02 AM, Mike N nice...@att.net wrote:

 On 4/11/2011 11:41 AM, Ian Dees wrote:

 When Google turns Google MapMaker on in the US and Europe*, it will
 become much harder to recruit new mappers to our community (that is
 already quite small). Being passive about this issue means that OSM and
 its more-open data will eventually be drowned out by Google's much
 greater marketing might.

 http://news.cnet.com/8301-19882_3-20055063-250.html

 ...Google won't take input from other community map sources, like Open
 Street Map or Waze. There are two reasons for this, one of which I got from
 Google, the other unstated. First, the user approval system was created for
 this project and isn't even used by other Google services. Adapting it to
 other user systems is just not on the project plan at the moment. The
 unstated reason: Google's data licensing is incompatible with other
 community maps. OpenStreetMap, for example, uses Creative Commons. Google
 does not: What you put on Google, Google owns



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Re: [OSM-talk] the 70% , was Re: License graph

2011-04-19 Thread Gerald A
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 6:43 AM, Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 19 Apr 2011, at 11:09, David Groom wrote:

 - Original Message - From: Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com

 Nor is it valid to simply switch these people over to the  new CT's without
 incident.  OK, don't let these people edit without agreeing to the new CT's,
 but to simply switch their accounts to the new CT's on the assumption they
 would agree, and it doesn't affect ant data currently in the OSM database,
 is not right.

 No one is proposing switching them to the new CTs –

 In an earlier post it was written which is ignoring the 70% or so of all
 of those people who never
 edited and can be switched over without incident.  I took this to mean
 that someone was suggesting they could be switched to the new CT's.


 My appologies, maybe they, or I have misunderstood.  I would agree entirely
 that it would be invalid to decide that these people have agreed to the new
 license without letting them ever tick a box.  It would however not be
 invalid simply to block their account and force them to agree, and it would
 be of no detriment to the project.


I try not to contribute to this bike-shedding, but I think the original
quote was of Steve Coast -- and while I don't pretend to speak for him, I
took his meaning to be that people will not be marked as accepting the CT
and the ODbL, but rather since they have no actual contributions, we can
switch them over to future phases without regard to data loss of any kind.

I think we're now in the phase of you have to accept or reject CT's, where
this was a voluntary process before. So, even if all of this 70% rejected
the move, there would be a ZERO data loss.

I don't believe he meant to imply that they would be automatiically marked
as accepting; but rather that their acceptance or rejection wouldn't have a
data impact.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Waiting 10 seconds ... OK - trying again.

2011-04-19 Thread colliar
Am 19.04.2011 03:51, schrieb Nathan Edgars II:
 
 jgrocha wrote:

 Hi,

 Recently, when I try to upload my edits, the server (or JOSM?) is
 reporting:
 Waiting 10 seconds ... OK - trying again.
 then it waits 10 seconds and continues afterwards.

 Is this some kind of overload protection mechanism on the server side?
 Is the server been to busy? Or it is on the JOSM client?

 
 This means that the server returns something other than thank you sir, may
 I have another and JOSM waits a bit and tries again. I too have been
 getting it a lot more often in the past few days, along with the occasional
 error when downloading an object or area.

I have the same problem downloading in JOSM. Sometimes it does not
connect but on a retry everythink works fine.

I did not get it on upload but I was not uploading much these days.

cu colliar


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Re: [OSM-talk] the 70% , was Re: License graph

2011-04-19 Thread Fabian Schmidt


Am 19.04.11 schrieb Elizabeth Dodd:


Are we counting humans or data?


I count data at http://osm.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/map/ below the map, 
Toby and Fred count humans, while SunCobalt and wicking count both at 
http://odbl.de/



Fabian.

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-19 Thread SteveC
It's true.

On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:33 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Hi,
 
 On 04/19/11 14:14, Elizabeth Dodd wrote:
 Of course, those who can remember a bit further back, recall that
 Frederick Ramm is in favour of Public Domain, and not ODbL.
 Perhaps if you explain just how your support was bought it would make
 more entertaining reading that your recent posts.
 
 SteveC said he'd let me pilot his private jet if I say yes.
 
 Bye
 Frederik
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-19 Thread Lambertus
Argh, apparently I gave in too early when you promised that Hurricane 
would give me a smile at the next SoTM!! Maybe I should've asked for a 
private dinner...


Op 19-04-11 21:18, SteveC schreef:

It's true.

On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:33 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

On 04/19/11 14:14, Elizabeth Dodd wrote:

Of course, those who can remember a bit further back, recall that
Frederick Ramm is in favour of Public Domain, and not ODbL.
Perhaps if you explain just how your support was bought it would make
more entertaining reading that your recent posts.

SteveC said he'd let me pilot his private jet if I say yes.

Bye
Frederik


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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

2011-04-19 Thread ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen
Where its said that a person checked the box ?
And not a bot, and if it were human, who did it ?
Someone who shared/hacked your WiFi ?
There is no legal relation between an ip-number and
a person unless there is other circumstantial evidence,
such as a double opt-in confirmed log-in in with username 
and password.


-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Kenneth Gonsalves [mailto:law...@thenilgiris.com] 
Verzonden: maandag 18 april 2011 12:31
Aan: Elizabeth Dodd
CC: talk@openstreetmap.org
Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

On Mon, 2011-04-18 at 20:02 +1000, Elizabeth Dodd wrote:
 On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 08:40:45 +0200
 Fabio Alessandro Locati fabioloc...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  In all the countries I know of ticking a checkbox is comparable to
  sign a printed contract, so I thin is pointless to have a written
  contract or a CopyPast thing ;)
 
 add Australia to your list of places where ticking a checkbox is NOT
 comparable to signing a printed contract.
 
 
 Quotation from an Australian Copyright Council Information sheet
 G102v01
 
   Elements of a contract
 The following elements must be present before you have a contract (a
 legally binding agreement):
 •   an offer;
 •   acceptance;
 •   benefit to all parties (“consideration”).
 Sometimes, a party does not want to accept the terms initially offered
 and makes a “counter-offer”, which may then be further negotiated. A
 contract is not binding until an offer is accepted without further
 conditions. Terms and conditions are generally set at the time of
 acceptance and cannot later be changed or revoked without all parties
 agreeing to the new terms.
 
 

where does this say that ticking a checkbox is not an acceptance of an
offer? And there is nothing unique about this - derived from English
common law and the same terms are there in *all* jurisdictions that
derive from common law.
-- 
regards
KG
http://lawgon.livejournal.com
Coimbatore LUG rox
http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/


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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-19 Thread ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen
I don't think Steve, it's a good idea to admit that in public.

I remember that some osm user publicly confessed to have used Google
while 
mapping OSM data and he was very badly treated... ;) or ;((

Gert

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: SteveC [mailto:st...@asklater.com] 
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2011 21:18
Aan: Frederik Ramm
CC: talk@openstreetmap.org
Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

It's true.

On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:33 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Hi,
 
 On 04/19/11 14:14, Elizabeth Dodd wrote:
 Of course, those who can remember a bit further back, recall that
 Frederick Ramm is in favour of Public Domain, and not ODbL.
 Perhaps if you explain just how your support was bought it would make
 more entertaining reading that your recent posts.
 
 SteveC said he'd let me pilot his private jet if I say yes.
 
 Bye
 Frederik
 
 
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stevecoast.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-19 Thread SteveC
You know I don't have a private jet, right?

But if I did, Fred could pilot it.


On Apr 19, 2011, at 12:45 PM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen 
wrote:

 I don't think Steve, it's a good idea to admit that in public.
 
 I remember that some osm user publicly confessed to have used Google
 while 
 mapping OSM data and he was very badly treated... ;) or ;((
 
 Gert
 
 -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
 Van: SteveC [mailto:st...@asklater.com] 
 Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2011 21:18
 Aan: Frederik Ramm
 CC: talk@openstreetmap.org
 Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] License graph
 
 It's true.
 
 On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:33 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Hi,
 
 On 04/19/11 14:14, Elizabeth Dodd wrote:
 Of course, those who can remember a bit further back, recall that
 Frederick Ramm is in favour of Public Domain, and not ODbL.
 Perhaps if you explain just how your support was bought it would make
 more entertaining reading that your recent posts.
 
 SteveC said he'd let me pilot his private jet if I say yes.
 
 Bye
 Frederik
 
 
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 stevecoast.com
 
 
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stevecoast.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-19 Thread Steve Doerr

On 18/04/2011 18:50, Thomas Davie wrote:

Because it will show the genuine trend – at the moment, a quick glance 
at the graph would suggest that the no vote is expanding at the same 
rate, and at the same level as the yes vote. I agree that we can't 
clearly show that they're not at the same level, because it would 
involve scaling the no vote to 1 100th of the size of the yes vote, 
but we can clearly show that they're not expanding at the same rate.


I have declined the CTs, but for me it is by no means a 'no' vote. I 
declined because that was the nearest thing to an 'Ask me later' option: 
I had read that declines can be reversed, but acceptances cannot. I 
didn't want to decline, precisely because it would look like I was 
answering 'no', but I had to because (as I've mentioned elsewhere) I was 
locked out of all OSM activity (making diary entries, commenting on 
someone else's diary entry, replying to a PM someone had sent me) until 
I chose one option or the other. IMO I should only have been locked out 
of activity that involved editing the map while I made up my mind, but 
that's not the way it was implemented.


--
Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] the 70% , was Re: License graph

2011-04-19 Thread Elizabeth Dodd
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 09:44:48 -0400
Gerald A geraldabli...@gmail.com wrote:

 I don't believe he meant to imply that they would be automatiically
 marked as accepting; but rather that their acceptance or rejection
 wouldn't have a data impact.

And thus the meaning of the question

Are we counting humans or data?

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-19 Thread Elizabeth Dodd
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 14:33:36 +0200
Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 SteveC said he'd let me pilot his private jet if I say yes.

As you are going to be waiting a long time to collect, could you
actually explain why you have gone from being a Public Domain activist
to an ODbL activist.
I'm quite sure the PD club were asked to make a new mailing list to take
Public Domain discussions off legal-talk, and that you were part of
that PD club.

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-19 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

Elizabeth Dodd wrote:

As you are going to be waiting a long time to collect, could you
actually explain why you have gone from being a Public Domain activist
to an ODbL activist.



I'm quite sure the PD club were asked to make a new mailing list to take
Public Domain discussions off legal-talk, and that you were part of
that PD club.


That's correct. But I'm surprised about your interest in the matter, 
because of all the problems you see with the current license change, 
only very few would be different with a PD license. All Nearmap-derived 
imagery would have to be deleted, as would have anything released CC-BY 
from the Australian government. This is not what you want, so I assume 
you would oppose a PD move even more resolutely than you oppose the 
current change.


The reason why I decided to support CT+ODbL is that I'm pragmatic; it is 
certainly better than what we have, and it is achievable, whereas while 
I might personally like PD better, that is not achievable.


Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Questions about CTs 1.2.4

2011-04-19 Thread James Livingston
On 14/04/2011, at 6:57 PM, Robert Whittaker (OSM) wrote:
 This method seems a much more satisfactory way of doing things to me
 -- assuming it could work legally (IANAL). We would still have the
 flexibility to re-license if we needed to without individual mappers
 being able to hold their data hostage, and we have much clearer rules
 for contributors to follow about what sources it is acceptable to use.

I think the big problem with that would be people editing, and combining 
licences.

Say for example there is some CC-BY derived coastline, and a road traced from 
Bing. I know that the area in between is a sandy beach, so add that to OSM. 
What licence is my beach under, and what are the restrictions for changing it 
in the future?


Right now this works because everything is CC-BY-SA or compatible with it, so 
it's not really an issue. I honestly don't know how it'd be figured out for a 
change to ODbL, probably just ignoring the issue, but if we're tracking what 
licence all the data is, then it would seem like something people would want us 
to figure out.
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Questions about CTs 1.2.4

2011-04-19 Thread James Livingston
On 14/04/2011, at 8:06 AM, Francis Davey wrote:
 On 13 April 2011 22:24, James Livingston li...@sunsetutopia.com wrote:
 * If so, how do we know what data must be removed in a switch to ODbL?
 
 That clause doesn't appear to put any obligation on you to remove
 data. All it requires of you is that _when you contribute_ you have a
 right to give that authorisation.

Okay. So those maps that people are producing showing how much data would need 
to be removed if we changed to ODbL are a work of fiction then, since that are 
based off who has agreed to the CTs, which don't guarantee the data is 
re-licensable. Hmm.

-- 
James
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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

2011-04-19 Thread Fabio Alessandro Locati
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 9:38 PM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert
Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl wrote:
 Where its said that a person checked the box ?
 And not a bot, and if it were human, who did it ?
 Someone who shared/hacked your WiFi ?
 There is no legal relation between an ip-number and
 a person unless there is other circumstantial evidence,
 such as a double opt-in confirmed log-in in with username
 and password.
Good questions, but these themes are already solved in the laws since
digital contracts are valid and that you need to be logged to accept
the ODbL+CT (and, btw: who assures that your sign is really tour sign
and nota fake?)

Fabio A Locati
-- 
Fabio Alessandro Locati

Home: Segrate, Milan, Italy (GMT +1)
Phone: +39-328-3799681
MSN/Jabber/E-Mail: fabioloc...@gmail.com

PGP Fingerprint: 5525 8555 213C 19EB 25F2  A047 2AD2 BE67 0F01 CA61

Involved in: KDE, OpenStreetMap, Ubuntu, Wikimedia

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

2011-04-19 Thread Kenneth Gonsalves
On Tue, 2011-04-19 at 12:51 -0700, SteveC wrote:
 You know I don't have a private jet, right?
 
 But if I did, Fred could pilot it. 

even if he said no?
-- 
regards
KG
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Coimbatore LUG rox
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

2011-04-19 Thread Russ Nelson
Anthony writes:
  
  On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 2:57 AM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:
   Mike N writes:
        Even a proper reversion script will cause much collateral damage for
     the cases I'm aware of.
  
   The whole point behind having a license is to be able to sue people
   who violate it.
  
  You've got it exactly backwards.  The whole point of having a free
  license is to waive the right to sue people who follow it.

E, no. If you want to wave that right, then you put your work into
the public domain.

Oh, but wait, you're Anthony. You don't just celebrate Backwards Day,
you're working on Backwards Century.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

2011-04-19 Thread Russ Nelson
Grant Slater writes:
  On 18 April 2011 05:05, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:
   Copyright.
  DRM.

DRM is a safe. The purpose of a safe is to slow you down. You purchase
a safe in terms of the amount of time it will take to be cracked. Once
it's cracked?

   Copyright.

-- 
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Crynwr supports open source software
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

2011-04-19 Thread Russ Nelson
Mike  Dupont writes:
  how can you take a cc-by-sa document edit it and publish it under pd?
  can I just make derived works in any license i want?

Well, that's part of the problem here. How do we determine what is
someone's work, and what is a derived work?  If I take a way that
someone has entered (poorly), and I move each and every node, and fix
the speling on the name of the way, whose creative work is it?  (one
could easily argue that the other person was the one being creative
whereas my work is merely a fact about the world, but I'm not going to
make that argument here).

We don't really know the answer to that, which makes this whole
license changing screw the community, we know better exercize a piss
in a pot.

Seriously, if I was Google (and I'm thinking of a specific person --
no, not Ed), I would look at the licensing confusion and disarray in
the Open Street Map community, and say God damn, what a bunch of
idiots. They have some good ideas, like VGI, Mapping Parties(tm), JOSM
(nice to have a dedicated OSM editor, but what an unusable piece of
crap it is) and a GeoBus(tm). Let's use those ideas, make our own map,
and put the goddamn thing out in the public domain once it's good
enough to kill off Navteq and TeleAtlas rather than have them just
steal it. Oh, and we'll kill OSM too, which is too bad, but they had
their chance.

-- 
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Crynwr supports open source software
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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Woonplaatsen, wijken, buurten en admin_levels

2011-04-19 Thread theun

Op 19-4-2011 0:26, Lennard schreef:


De huidige indeling is voornamelijk ingegeven door het Duitse 
voorbeeld. Zij hebben stadsdelen/gemeentedelen zonder zelfbestuur op 
10. Dat concept is vergelijkbaar met onze woonplaatsen. Dezelfde 
overweging zorgde ervoor dat stadsdelen *met* zelfbestuur op 9 kwamen.


In de praktijk blijkt het bij ons qua grootte net andersom. Als we het 
in OSM omdraaien, krijg je de rariteit dat een deel zonder zelfbestuur 
hoger uitkomt dan een deel met zelfbestuur. Moeten we admin_level dus 
geografisch of functioneel zien?


Op zich lijkt het mij logisch dat een stadsdeel een deel is van de stad 
(woonplaats) Amsterdam.  Ik zou het daarom logisch vinden dat een 
stadsdeel lager uitkomt dan de woonplaats. Om dit met de situatie in 
Duitsland te vergelijken is denk ik ook lastig.


Wat je ook wel ziet is dat in steeds groter wordende gemeenten, het 
bestuur geldpotjes/plannen wil laten invullen door de inwoners zelf. 
Hierbij wordt dan vaak een vereniging van dorpsbelang als 
vertegenwoordiger van de bewoners gezien. Is nog geen zelfbestuur per 
woonplaats, maar begint er wel op te lijken.


Nog even over die CBS data. De indeling in wijken/buurten van het CBS is 
in ieder geval op het platteland van Friesland puur ter eigen vermaak 
van het CBS om een leuke onderverdeling/kaartjes te maken. Meestal 
worden een aantal dorpen samengepakt tot een wijk, en wordt elk dorp 
verdeelt in een gedeelte dorp en het gebied eromheen (aangeduid met 
verspreide huizen dorp). Inwikipedia 
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wijken_en_buurten_in_Dongeradeel wordt 
het blijkbaar als relevante info gezien maar ik hoop niet dat dit soort 
onofficiële gebiedsindeling in de data van OSM terechtkomen.
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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Woonplaatsen, wijken, buurten en admin_levels

2011-04-19 Thread Wimmel
2011/4/19 theun theun.m...@gmail.com:

 Nog even over die CBS data. De indeling in wijken/buurten van het CBS is in
 ieder geval op het platteland van Friesland puur ter eigen vermaak van het
 CBS om een leuke onderverdeling/kaartjes te maken. Meestal worden een aantal
 dorpen samengepakt tot een wijk, en wordt elk dorp verdeelt in een gedeelte
 dorp en het gebied eromheen (aangeduid met verspreide huizen dorp). In
 wikipedia wordt het blijkbaar als relevante info gezien maar ik hoop niet
 dat dit soort onofficiële gebiedsindeling in de data van OSM terechtkomen.

Als het goed is, is het wel degelijk een officiele indeling die door de gemeente
zelf is gemaakt. Zie bijvoorbeeld http://www.utrecht.nl/ROL/00/00/1C/68/7272.pdf

Daaruit blijkt volgens mij dat het CBS van elke gemeente eist dat ze
een indeling
in buurten en wijken maken, en dat opsturen naar het CBS.

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Woonplaatsen, wijken, buurten en admin_levels

2011-04-19 Thread Martien Scheepens
Ik wil aan deze discussie toevoegen dat ik in het geval van Groningen een
echte suburb ken: De bebouwing van Ter Borch (gemeente Tynaarloo, Drenthe)
sluit naadloos aan op die van Groningen.
Ook zijn er stadsdelen die meerdere woonplaatsen (met eigen blauw bord)
omvatten.

Lennard:

 Zo te zien zitten gemeenten vooral op 8 en 7. Ik vraag me af of je het
 Duitse Amt op 7 gelijk mag zien als een NL gemeente, qua status? Wellicht
 zijn plusregio's juist vergelijkbaar met hun Amt?


De organisatie van Ämter (en je hebt ook nog Samtgemeinden en
Verwaltungsgemeinschaften) verschillen per deelstaat qua competenties.
Meestal organiseren meerdere gemeenten samen de brandweer, basisscholen,
nutsvoorzieningen etc. Een gemeente (inwoneraantallen variëren van 50(!) -
1000) die dus lid is van een verband is eigenlijk minder dan een normale
Duitse of Nederlandse gemeente.


Wimmel:

 Daaruit blijkt volgens mij dat het CBS van elke gemeente eist dat ze een
 indeling in buurten en wijken maken, en dat opsturen naar het CBS.


Groningen kent naast de CBS-indeling ook een eigen indeling:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groningen_%28gemeente%29#Indeling
Maar ik denk wel dat je gelijk hebt, omdat de indeling van buurten wel
aansluit bij de werkelijkheid.


Groeten,

Martien
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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Woonplaatsen, wijken, buurten en admin_levels

2011-04-19 Thread theun

Op 19-4-2011 21:17, Martien Scheepens schreef:
Ik wil aan deze discussie toevoegen dat ik in het geval van Groningen 
een echte suburb ken: De bebouwing van Ter Borch (gemeente Tynaarloo, 
Drenthe) sluit naadloos aan op die van Groningen.
Ook zijn er stadsdelen die meerdere woonplaatsen (met eigen blauw 
bord) omvatten.




Je moet natuurlijk wel de gemeente Groningen en de stad Groningen uit 
elkaar houden. Dat is niet hetzelfde.



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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-19 Thread Michael Kugelmann

Am 18.04.2011 13:25, schrieb Florian Lohoff:

Ich habe auf Disagree geklickt und ich stehe dazu. Ich halte den ganzen
ODBL krams fuer Mumpitz

[...]

Noch ein Kommentar:
Du hast zwar abgelehnt, aber Deine ganzen Edits stellst Du gemäß 
Deiner Wiki-Userseite unter der PD.
Ich freue mich, dass das Projekt auch nach Deinem voraussichtlichen 
Ausscheiden in Phase 4 / Phase 5 - welches ich eindeutig bedauere - 
weiterverwenden darf. Ausdrücklichen Danke dafür. Dieser gilt auch wenn 
ich die Logik Deiner Entscheidung (PD ja aber nicht OBDL) nicht verstehe.



Grüße,
Michael.

PS: Leider bist Du nicht der einzige PD ja aber nicht OBDL-User.


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Re: [Talk-de] railway=* usage

2011-04-19 Thread Peter Wendorff

und an vielen weiteren Stellen.
Wäre das nicht 'ne Idee für sowas wie GSoC?

Ganz grobe Ideenskizze:
1. Eingabe:
1.1. OSM-Daten,
1.2. Default-Annahme für Breiten von linearen Objekten (z.B. Bahnschiene 
rund 4 Meter(?), Autobahn-Spur mit Angabe von lanes=x 4m*x+2,50m (für 
den Seitenstreifen), Autobahn-Spur ohne Angabe von lanes: 10m, 
residential ohne weitere Angaben 6m, und so weiter.

2. Verfahren:
3. Ausgabe:
3.1. für parallele Bündel von Wegen jeweils einen Pseudoweg in der Mitte 
mit generiertem Typ (z.B. highway=foot+residential+foot oder 
highway=residential+parking+foot+bicycle, oder eben auch railway=
3.2. die in diesen Bündeln kollabierten Elemente bekommen ein 
zusätzliches Attribut, das dieses parallele Bündel referenziert: 
collapser:collapsed_by=42


Beim Rendering kann man dann, dieses Tool nutzend, die Pseudowege 
rendern und dafür Elemente mit gegebenem collapser:collapsed_by=* 
verstecken.


Gruß
Peter

P.S.: Ich weiß, dass das hier erstmal nur eine grobe Skizze ist. Ich 
weiß auch, dass es nicht so einfach sein wird, weil OSM nicht konsistent 
Wegebündel enthält, bei denen konstant die gleichen Wegeteile parallel 
verlaufen - aber die Idee sollte klar sein.


Am 18.04.2011 23:27, schrieb Heiko Jacobs:

Am 18.04.2011 18:44, schrieb Felix Hartmann:


Dasselbe Problem wird kommen,
wenn wir in OSM irgendwann flächendeckend Fahrspuren mappen.


Das Problem HABEN wir schon.
Stichwort: straßenbegleitende Radwege ...



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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-19 Thread Georg Feddern

Moin,

Michael Kugelmann schrieb:

Am 18.04.2011 13:25, schrieb Florian Lohoff:

Ich habe auf Disagree geklickt und ich stehe dazu. Ich halte den ganzen
ODBL krams fuer Mumpitz

Du hast zwar abgelehnt, aber Deine ganzen Edits stellst Du gemäß
Deiner Wiki-Userseite unter der PD.
Ich freue mich, dass das Projekt auch nach Deinem voraussichtlichen 
Ausscheiden in Phase 4 / Phase 5 - welches ich eindeutig bedauere - 
weiterverwenden darf. Ausdrücklichen Danke dafür.



+1

Formal gesehen ist das doch die einzige Möglichkeit einer Enthaltung im 
Rahmen dieser Lizenzumstellung.
Und somit die einzige Möglichkeit, seinen Unmut über die ünglückliche 
Form bzw. den Ablauf der Lizenzumstellung auszudrücken, die man nicht 
auch noch ausdrücklich bejahen möchte - und gleichzeitig der Übernahme 
seiner Daten nicht im Wege zu stehen.



PS: Leider bist Du nicht der einzige PD ja aber nicht OBDL-User.


'Leider' gilt aber nur dann, wenn jemand diese Aussage trifft, ohne 
seine Daten unter PD freizugeben.


Gruß
Georg




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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-19 Thread Florian Lohoff
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 02:01:25AM +0200, Michael Kugelmann wrote:
 Das Thema Lizenzwechsel wird seit Jahren diskutiert, dazu gehört
 auch der Zeitplan (auch wenn dieser immer wieder verzögert wurde).
 Das Argument dass irgendetwas neu sei ist für mich also nicht zu
 verstehen.
 Warum hast Du nicht in den letzten Jahren aktiv mitgearbeitet
 sondern versucht jetzt zur zu nörgeln und Dich querzustellen?

Dann guck mal bitte in die Mailinglisten archive bevor du dich
hier so beleidigend aeusserst ... *plonk*

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
„Für eine ausgewogene Energiepolitik über das Jahr 2020 hinaus ist die
Nutzung von Atomenergie eine Brückentechnologie und unverzichtbar. Ein
Ausstieg in zehn Jahren, wie noch unter der rot-grünen Regierung
beschlossen, kommt für die nationale Energieversorgung zu abrupt.“
Angela Merkel CDU 30.8.2009


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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-19 Thread Sven Geggus
Michael Kugelmann michaelk_...@gmx.de wrote:

 PS: Leider bist Du nicht der einzige PD ja aber nicht OBDL-User.

Ähm entweder ich habe PD missverstanden oder ich kann der dahinterstehenden
Logik nicht folgen. PD erlaubt ja gerade, dass ich die Daten nehmen kann und
unter welcher schrägen Lizenz auch immer zu vertreiben. Also ist PD doch
automatisch auch OBDL und alle anderen Lizenzen dieser Welt.

Sven

-- 
Um Kontrolle Ihres Kontos wiederzugewinnen, klicken Sie bitte auf das
Verbindungsgebrüll. (aus einer Ebay fishing Mail)

/me is giggls@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web

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[Talk-de] Lizenzumstellung - verschollene Mapper

2011-04-19 Thread Falk Zscheile
Moin,

ich habe hier gerade den Fall eines Mappers, der für seinen
Arbeitgeber  OSM-Daten eingepflegt hat. Nun hat der Mapper leider sein
Arbeitsverhältnis gelöst und ist nicht mehr zu erreichen. Die bei OSM
hinterlegte E-Mailadresse ist seine nun deaktivierte Arbeits-E-Mail.
Der Arbeitgeber hätte die Daten natürlich auch nach der
Lizenzumstellung in der neuen Datenbank. Wie bekommen wir so einen
Fall in den Griff?

Gruß, Falk

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Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzumstellung - verschollene Mapper

2011-04-19 Thread DarkAngel

 ich habe hier gerade den Fall eines Mappers, der für seinen
 Arbeitgeber  OSM-Daten eingepflegt hat. Nun hat der Mapper leider sein
 Arbeitsverhältnis gelöst und ist nicht mehr zu erreichen. Die bei OSM
 hinterlegte E-Mailadresse ist seine nun deaktivierte Arbeits-E-Mail.
 Der Arbeitgeber hätte die Daten natürlich auch nach der
 Lizenzumstellung in der neuen Datenbank. Wie bekommen wir so einen
 Fall in den Griff?

Technisch sollte es kein Problem sein die Mailadresse zu reaktivieren
bzw. im Account zu ändern.
Rechtlich kann ich nicht beurteilen, da der User ja im Auftrag seines
Arbeitgebers gehandelt hat.

-- 
Gruß Mario



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Re: [Talk-de] OSBL-Karte wird bunter

2011-04-19 Thread André Riedel
Hallo Fabian,

ich würde mich freuen, wenn du als Darstellung anstatt des alten
OSM-Mapnik-Stils auf einen Transparenten Hintergrund umschwenken
könntest. Das hätte für dich den Vorteil, dass du weniger zum Rendern
hast. Für uns als Benutzer gäbe es den Vorteil, dass wir andere
Kartenhintergründe (monochromatische) verwenden könnten und
Hauptinformation der Karte prominenter dargestellt (keine Ablenkung
von Wald- oder Ackerflächen) ist.

Ciao André

Am 17. April 2011 14:28 schrieb Fabian Schmidt
fschm...@informatik.uni-leipzig.de:
 Hi,

 mit der Verfügbarkeit einer Liste[1] der Nutzer, die den Lizenzwechsel
 ablehnen, hab ich die Lizenzwechselkarte[2] umgefärbt und unterscheide jetzt
 drei Nutzergruppen, accept (grün), decline (rot) und den Rest (blau), sowie
 die vier daraus entstehenden Kombinationen. Unter der Karte findet sich die
 Legende und ein Überblick über den aktuellen Stand.

 Nachwievor unterliegt die Karte folgenden Einschränkungen:
 - die Karte zeigt den aktuellen Stand, was keine Rückschlüsse zulässt,
  warum welcher Nutzer in welcher Gruppe ist
 - ich betrachte weiterhin nur, welche Nutzer in der Historie der Ways
  auftauchen und damit schaue ich nicht, welche Wege gesplittet wurden und
  damit Rechte von anderen Wegen erben, welche Edits trivial sind oder wo
  nur die Lage eines Ways verändert wurde.


 Viele Grüße,

 Fabian.

 [1] http://ni.kwsn.net/~toby/OSM/license_count.html
 [2] http://osm.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/map/

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[Talk-de] Bäche mit layer=-1

2011-04-19 Thread bkmap

Hallo Liste,

In letzter Zeit habe ich Bäche öfters durchgehend mit mit layer=-1 
erfasst, damit sie unter Brücken und in Rohren automatisch unten 
verschwinden. Jetzt habe ich gemerkt, dass das im Osmarender schief 
geht. Die Bäche verschwinden nämlich auch unter Waldflächen.
Ich denke werde mich drüber machen und die Bäche auf Layer=0 umarbeiten. 
Nur wenn sie als Tunnel gekennzeichnet sind erhalten sie dann layer=-1. 
Im Gegenzug bekommen dann die Brücken über bäche layer=1.


Hat jemand eine bessere Idee?

Bye
Burkhard


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Re: [Talk-de] Bäche mit layer=-1

2011-04-19 Thread Peter Wendorff

Bitte layer=0 nicht angeben, das ist unnötig.
Ansonsten: Brücken bekommen layer=1, Tunnel layer=-1, sonst keine Layer.
Eigentlich sollten layer-Angaben nichtmal da notwendig sein - ob das die 
Renderer aber bisher hinkriegen, weiß ich nicht genau.


Gruß
Peter

Am 19.04.2011 12:20, schrieb bkmap:

Hallo Liste,

In letzter Zeit habe ich Bäche öfters durchgehend mit mit layer=-1 
erfasst, damit sie unter Brücken und in Rohren automatisch unten 
verschwinden. Jetzt habe ich gemerkt, dass das im Osmarender schief 
geht. Die Bäche verschwinden nämlich auch unter Waldflächen.
Ich denke werde mich drüber machen und die Bäche auf Layer=0 
umarbeiten. Nur wenn sie als Tunnel gekennzeichnet sind erhalten sie 
dann layer=-1. Im Gegenzug bekommen dann die Brücken über bäche layer=1.


Hat jemand eine bessere Idee?

Bye
Burkhard


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Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzumstellung - verschollene Mapper

2011-04-19 Thread Arne Johannessen
DarkAngel wrote:
 
 ich habe hier gerade den Fall eines Mappers, der für seinen
 Arbeitgeber  OSM-Daten eingepflegt hat. [...]
 
 
 [...]
 Rechtlich kann ich nicht beurteilen, da der User ja im Auftrag seines
 Arbeitgebers gehandelt hat.

Das deutsche Urheberrecht ist nicht übertragbar, weswegen dem Arbeitgeber i. d. 
R. konkludent ein (einfaches oder ausschließliches) Nutzungsrecht an erzeugten 
Werken eingeräumt wird. Das heißt, im vorliegenden Fall ist _anscheinend_ 
effektiv der Arbeitgeber der Lizenzgeber der Daten gegenüber OSM und kann daher 
über ihre Weiterverwendung im Projekt entscheiden.

IANAL etc.
Arne

-- 
Arne Johannessen


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Re: [Talk-de] Bäche mit layer=-1

2011-04-19 Thread André Joost

Am 19.04.11 12:28, schrieb Peter Wendorff:

Bitte layer=0 nicht angeben, das ist unnötig.
Ansonsten: Brücken bekommen layer=1, Tunnel layer=-1, sonst keine Layer.
Eigentlich sollten layer-Angaben nichtmal da notwendig sein -


Hier sind sie notwendig:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.68177lon=6.61007zoom=17layers=O



ob das die
Renderer aber bisher hinkriegen, weiß ich nicht genau.


Osmarender ja, Mapnik nein.

Gruß,
André Joost



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Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzumstellung - verschollene Mapper

2011-04-19 Thread Falk Zscheile
Am 19. April 2011 12:39 schrieb Arne Johannessen a...@thaw.de:
 DarkAngel wrote:

 ich habe hier gerade den Fall eines Mappers, der für seinen
 Arbeitgeber  OSM-Daten eingepflegt hat. [...]


 [...]
 Rechtlich kann ich nicht beurteilen, da der User ja im Auftrag seines
 Arbeitgebers gehandelt hat.

 Das deutsche Urheberrecht ist nicht übertragbar, weswegen dem Arbeitgeber i. 
 d. R. konkludent ein (einfaches oder ausschließliches) Nutzungsrecht an 
 erzeugten Werken eingeräumt wird. Das heißt, im vorliegenden Fall ist 
 _anscheinend_ effektiv der Arbeitgeber der Lizenzgeber der Daten gegenüber 
 OSM und kann daher über ihre Weiterverwendung im Projekt entscheiden.


Unterstellen wir, das der Arbeitgeber das Nutzungsrecht hat. Wie jetzt
weiter? Der Mapper selbst ist mit vertretbarem Aufwand nicht
auffindbar. Sein Account verwaist. Keiner kennt das Passwort.
Vermutlich würde sich nicht einmal der Mapper selbst an sein Passwort
bei OSM erinnern ...

Die Adresse des ehemaligen Arbeitgebers an stelle des Mappers setzen
lassen, so dass der Arbeitgeber zustimmen kann?

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Re: [Talk-de] Bäche mit layer=-1

2011-04-19 Thread Andreas Neumann
Am 19.04.2011 12:41, schrieb André Joost:
 Hier sind sie notwendig:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.68177lon=6.61007zoom=17layers=O

oder hier:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=50.95264lon=7.03778zoom=17layers=O
(sehr imposant, wenn man unten durch fährt)


-- 
Diese Nachricht wurde maschinell erstellt und ist daher ohne
Unterschrift gültig.



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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-19 Thread Heiko Jacobs

Am 19.04.2011 09:31, schrieb Georg Feddern:

Formal gesehen ist das doch die einzige Möglichkeit einer Enthaltung
im Rahmen dieser Lizenzumstellung.
Und somit die einzige Möglichkeit, seinen Unmut über die ünglückliche Form

 bzw. den Ablauf der Lizenzumstellung auszudrücken, die man nicht
 auch noch ausdrücklich bejahen möchte

- und gleichzeitig der Übernahme seiner Daten nicht im Wege zu stehen.


Nein, diese Möglichkeit gibt es nicht, da man PD doch nur dann anklicken
und abschicken kann, wenn man auch ODBL akzeptiert hat, oder?

Gruß Mueck


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Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzumstellung - verschollene Mapper

2011-04-19 Thread Arne Johannessen
Falk Zscheile wrote:
 
 [...]
 Der Arbeitgeber hätte die Daten natürlich auch nach der
 Lizenzumstellung in der neuen Datenbank.


Falk Zscheile wrote:
 
 Unterstellen wir, das der Arbeitgeber das Nutzungsrecht hat. Wie jetzt
 weiter? [...]

Na, zum Beispiel so:

DarkAngel wrote:
 
 Technisch sollte es kein Problem sein die Mailadresse zu reaktivieren
 bzw. im Account zu ändern.
 [...]

Oder übersehe ich was?

-- 
Arne Johannessen


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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-19 Thread Arne Johannessen
Heiko Jacobs wrote:
 
 Nein, diese Möglichkeit gibt es nicht, da man PD doch nur dann anklicken
 und abschicken kann, wenn man auch ODBL akzeptiert hat, oder?

Du kannst ja PD auch auf andere Weise deklarieren. Michael schrieb, Florian 
habe das im Wiki entsprechend geschrieben.

(Zur Rechtsgültigkeit einer Checkbox oder eines Wiki-Eintrags lasse ich mich 
nicht aus. Theoretisch könntest Du aber auch bei jedem Edit ins Changeset 
schreiben license=PD.)

-- 
Arne Johannessen


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Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzumstellung - verschollene Mapper

2011-04-19 Thread Simon Poole

Am 19.04.2011 12:39, schrieb Arne Johannessen:

...
Das deutsche Urheberrecht ist nicht übertragbar, weswegen dem Arbeitgeber i. d. 
R. konkludent ein (einfaches oder ausschließliches) Nutzungsrecht an erzeugten 
Werken eingeräumt wird. Das heißt, im vorliegenden Fall ist _anscheinend_ 
effektiv der Arbeitgeber der Lizenzgeber der Daten gegenüber OSM und kann daher 
über ihre Weiterverwendung im Projekt entscheiden.
Das ist zwar alles richtig, aber es ist eher fraglich ob das 
Urheberrecht auch nur entfernt greift in diesem Fall. Wie schon oft 
darauf hingewiesen, erweben Datatypisten normalerweise keine Rechte an 
den von ihnen eingegeben Daten (auch kein Datenbankrechte).


So oder so, wäre es natürlich am Arbeitgeber, das ganze zu belegen und 
die OSMF dazu zubringen, das Konto umzuschreiben oder sonstwie dem AG 
zugänglich zu machen.


Simon

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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-19 Thread Heiko Jacobs

Am 19.04.2011 06:28, schrieb Bernd Wurst:

Ich weiß nicht wie die OSMF mit der Frage umgehen wird, aber ich würde
da ganz einfach sagen: Es wurde immer klar gesagt, man soll GPS-Tracks
hochladen die echte GPS-Punkte enthalten (Fakten).
Die kreative Schaffensarbeit des Track-Erstellers ist also nicht gegeben
und auch nicht vergleichbar mit der Schaffensarbeit aus den Tracks dann
Straßen zu machen.


Wenn ich da mal an meine eigenen Tracks denke von einer recht alten
Magellan-Möhre ...
Die kreative Schaffenskraft liegt im Gerät selbst! ;-)
Ohne das recht kreative Eigenleben dieser Kiste beim Anlegen des tracks
zu kennen, biste verraten und verkauft beim Erzeugen von Wegen daraus.
Diese Eigenarten zu berücksichtigen ist wiederum nur meiner kreativen
Schaffeneskraft zu verdanken, ohne die so mancher Waldweg eigenartige
Loopings schlagen würde auf der slippy map ;-)

Gruß Mueck


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Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzumstellung - verschollene Mapper

2011-04-19 Thread Heiko Jacobs

Am 19.04.2011 12:46, schrieb Falk Zscheile:

Unterstellen wir, das der Arbeitgeber das Nutzungsrecht hat. Wie jetzt
weiter? Der Mapper selbst ist mit vertretbarem Aufwand nicht
auffindbar. Sein Account verwaist. Keiner kennt das Passwort.
Vermutlich würde sich nicht einmal der Mapper selbst an sein Passwort
bei OSM erinnern ...

Die Adresse des ehemaligen Arbeitgebers an stelle des Mappers setzen
lassen, so dass der Arbeitgeber zustimmen kann?


Wenn's so ist:

Am 19.04.2011 11:52, schrieb Falk Zscheile:
 Die bei OSM
 hinterlegte E-Mailadresse ist seine nun deaktivierte Arbeits-E-Mail.

Dann sollte der Arbeitgeber doch die Möglichkeit haben, in seiner
ureigenen Domain fritzchen.map...@arbeitgeber.de wieder zu aktivieren und
auf che...@arbeitgeber.de umzubiegen und sich dann ein neues Passwort
zuschicken zu lassen?!

Wenn Fritzchen Mapper natürlich neben der Arbeit auch noch auf private
Eigeninitiative hin paar Sachen gemappt hat, die nicht vom Arbeitsauftrag
abgedeckt sind, wird's womöglich kritisch mit dem Nutzungsrecht des AG ...
Googeln nach Fritzchen Mapper hilft nicht? ;-)

Gruß Mueck


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Re: [Talk-de] Bäche mit layer=-1

2011-04-19 Thread Heiko Jacobs

Am 19.04.2011 12:41, schrieb André Joost:

Am 19.04.11 12:28, schrieb Peter Wendorff:

Bitte layer=0 nicht angeben, das ist unnötig.
Ansonsten: Brücken bekommen layer=1, Tunnel layer=-1, sonst keine Layer.


Und entweder ist's eine Brücke oder ein Tunnel (Rohr unter Weg), aber
normalerweise nicht beides


Eigentlich sollten layer-Angaben nichtmal da notwendig sein -


Hier sind sie notwendig:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.68177lon=6.61007zoom=17layers=O


Immer diese Hochstapler! ;-)
Im übrigen:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.68518lon=6.61529zoom=17layers=O
*zweifelanmeld* ;-)


ob das die
Renderer aber bisher hinkriegen, weiß ich nicht genau.


Osmarender ja, Mapnik nein.


Berücksichtigt Mapnik überhaupt irgendwie layer? Mich beschleichen da
regelmäßig Zweifel ...

Gruß Mueck


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Re: [Talk-de] Bäche mit layer=-1

2011-04-19 Thread André Joost

Am 19.04.11 13:27, schrieb Heiko Jacobs:


Im übrigen:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.68518lon=6.61529zoom=17layers=O
*zweifelanmeld* ;-)



Zweifel sind angebracht, da hat wohl der Straßenmapper nicht auf die 
Gleise geschaut, und umgekehrt.


Hier kommt bei Mapnik auch nur Murks raus:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.52079lon=6.7394zoom=17layers=O

Hier schon was besser (bis auf die Straßenbahn):
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.52042lon=7.47554zoom=17layers=M

Gruß,
André Joost



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[Talk-de] aio/germany-daily

2011-04-19 Thread UMAX974
Hallo Liste,

seit 2 Tagen bekomme ich die gmapsupp.img von der german-daily nicht mehr auf 
meinem etrex Legend Cx zum laufen. Kann das jemand mal überprüfen?

Danke

UMAX974

btw.: Was läuft zur Zeit im Blick auf die AIO weiter, es ist so verdächtig 
ruhig geworden - (die Urlaubszeit naht)
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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-19 Thread Bernd Wurst
Am 2011-04-19 09:31 schrieb Sven Geggus:
 Ähm entweder ich habe PD missverstanden oder ich kann der
 dahinterstehenden Logik nicht folgen. PD erlaubt ja gerade, dass ich
 die Daten nehmen kann und unter welcher schrägen Lizenz auch immer zu
 vertreiben. Also ist PD doch automatisch auch OBDL und alle anderen
 Lizenzen dieser Welt.

Du hast die Die Lizenz ist mir egal, ich will aber protestieren
*aufdenbodenstampf*-Komponente einfach nicht verstanden. ;-)

Gruß, Bernd

-- 
Wenn eine Frau nicht spricht, soll man sie um Himmels willen nicht
unterbrechen.
  -  Enriyeu Castaldo


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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-19 Thread Manuel Reimer

Frederik Ramm wrote:

Beide Listen sind oeffentlich:

http://planet.openstreetmap.org/users_agreed/users_disagreed.txt
http://planet.openstreetmap.org/users_agreed/users_agreed.txt


Mal doof gefragt: Wie schaffe ich es, diese Liste so durch die OSM-API zu 
stopfen, dass eine Liste von Usernamen rausfällt?


Danke im Voraus

Gruß

Manuel


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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-19 Thread Dermot McNally
2011/4/19 Manuel Reimer manuel.s...@nurfuerspam.de:

 Mal doof gefragt: Wie schaffe ich es, diese Liste so durch die OSM-API zu
 stopfen, dass eine Liste von Usernamen rausfällt?

Das kann ich nicht direkt antworten, kann aber sein, dass du hier auf
deine Kosten kommst:

http://fred.dev.openstreetmap.org/

Dermot

-- 
--
Igaühel on siin oma laul
ja ma oma ei leiagi üles

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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-19 Thread Ludwich

Am 18.04.2011 10:46, schrieb Frederik Ramm:

Hallo,

   ich habe auf

http://fred.dev.openstreetmap.org/

ein kleines Skript gebastelt, das erstens einen Balken anzeigt, an dem 
man sehen kann, wie viele Leute seit dem Wochenende auf agree bzw. 
auf disagree geklickt haben, und das zweitens zeigt, *wer* alles auf 
disagree geklickt hat.


Bitte zwei Dinge genau beachten, damit nichts in den falschen Hals 
geraet:


1. Der Balken zeigt nicht die *Gesamtzahl* Zustimmer vs. Ablehner an, 
sondern nur das Verhaeltnis unter denen, die sich seit dem Wochenende 
entschieden haben. Alle, die bereits vorher zugestimmt haben, und 
alle, die im Rahmen ihrer Anmeldung bereits die CT akzeptiert haben, 
sind bei den gruenen nicht mitgezaehlt.


2. Die Nein-Entscheidung ist noch nicht endgueltig. Es waere also 
verfrueht, jetzt hinzugehen und zu sagen: Ah, der User xy1234 hat 
Nein gesagt, also loesche ich mal alle seine Daten und erfasse sie 
neu; es koennte sein, dass der User xy1234 leidglich pokert, oder 
beleidigt ist, oder einfach nur hoeflich gefragt werden will, und sich 
spaeter noch umentscheidet. Also bitte keine ueberhasteten Aktionen - 
wenn in Eurer Stadt ein Ablehner ist, dann sucht das Gespraech, 
findet raus, wo ihn der Schuh drueckt, und ob man ihn vielleicht 
ueberzeugen kann.


Falls ihr auf Leute trefft, die sagen: ODbL find ich im Prinzip ok, 
aber die Contributor Terms lehne ich ab, dann gibt es theoretisch die 
Moeglichkeit, dass die OSMF per Einzelfallentscheidung diesen User 
trotzdem weitermachen laesst. Das ist eine Sache, die nur in 
Ausnahmefaellen in Frage kommt, weil sie zu Laste der Freiheit 
kuenftiger Generationen in OSM geht - Daten, die ohne 
CT-Einverstaendnis in der Datenbank bleiben, werden bei einem 
eventuellen spaeteren Lizenzwechsel wieder den gleichen Stress 
verursachen, den wir jetzt haben. Aber denkbar ist es zumindest.


Bye
Frederik

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Da bin ich wirklich sprachlos, in  Filmchen von Frederik bzw. in den 
Diskussionen wird von einer Übersetzung der CT/Lizenz gesprochen. Ich 
sehe aber beim Anmelden Frankreich / Italien / Rest der Welt. Ich bin 
leider des Englischen nicht(so gut) mächtig, traut sich da keiner ran? - 
Verschwörungstheorie? Jetzt bitte kein Tipp: Einfach in den 
Google-Übersetzer oder im Wiki auf Seite 10001 - Das ist einfach Sch... 
so!!!


Gruß Ludwich


 Vereinbarung für Mitwirkende

Bitte lese die unten angezeigte Vereinbarung und klicke dann auf die 
Schaltfläche Einverstanden, um zu bestätigen, dass du die Bedingungen 
dieser Vereinbarung für deine bestehenden sowie zukünftigen Beiträge 
akzeptierst.


Bitte wähle das Land deines Wohnsitzes: Frankreich Italien Rest der Welt

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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-19 Thread Fabian Schmidt


Am 19.04.11 schrieb Manuel Reimer:

Mal doof gefragt: Wie schaffe ich es, diese Liste so durch die OSM-API zu 
stopfen, dass eine Liste von Usernamen rausfällt?


k.A., ob es API-Funktionen gibt, aber im Planet stehen bei den Changesets 
sowohl die uid als auch der Nutzername des letzten Bearbeiters. Einen 
Ausschnitt der Liste findest Du in den Listen unter http://repo.grimp.eu/osm/



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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-19 Thread Mitja Kleider
Hallo Ludwich,

On Tue, 2011-04-19 at 16:41 +0200, Ludwich wrote:
 Da bin ich wirklich sprachlos, in  Filmchen von Frederik bzw. in den 
 Diskussionen wird von einer Übersetzung der CT/Lizenz gesprochen. Ich 
 sehe aber beim Anmelden Frankreich / Italien / Rest der Welt. Ich bin 
 leider des Englischen nicht(so gut) mächtig, traut sich da keiner ran? - 

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Open_Database_License/Contributor_Terms

Es handelt sich um eine inoffizielle Übersetzung. Für Frankreich und
Italien gibt es aus rechtlichen Gründen eine offizielle Übersetzung, für
die Anwälte bezahlt wurden.

Wenn ich mich richtig erinnere, wird die inoffizielle Übersetzung auch
angezeigt oder verlinkt, wenn du Rest der Welt auswählst.


Viele Grüße
Mitja



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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-19 Thread Henning Scholland

Am 19.04.2011 16:07, schrieb Bernd Wurst:

Am 2011-04-19 09:31 schrieb Sven Geggus:

Ähm entweder ich habe PD missverstanden oder ich kann der
dahinterstehenden Logik nicht folgen. PD erlaubt ja gerade, dass ich
die Daten nehmen kann und unter welcher schrägen Lizenz auch immer zu
vertreiben. Also ist PD doch automatisch auch OBDL und alle anderen
Lizenzen dieser Welt.

Du hast die Die Lizenz ist mir egal, ich will aber protestieren
*aufdenbodenstampf*-Komponente einfach nicht verstanden. ;-)
Übrigens nicht zu verwechseln mit ICH will aber mit dem Bagger spielen 
:-D


Henning


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Re: [Talk-de] OSBL-Karte wird bunter

2011-04-19 Thread Fabian Schmidt

Hallo André,

Am 19.04.11 schrieb André Riedel:


ich würde mich freuen, wenn du als Darstellung anstatt des alten
OSM-Mapnik-Stils auf einen Transparenten Hintergrund umschwenken
könntest.


ich hab erst mal die Stildatei um ein Drittel geschrumpft, es gibt sicher 
noch reichlich Lösch-Potential, aber es ist erst mal transparent und 
rendert schneller.



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Re: [Talk-de] aio/germany-daily

2011-04-19 Thread UMAX974
Noch zur Ergänzung: ich habe alte gmapsupp.img Dateien, die an meinem GARMIN 
prima laufen.

Bei den aktuellen ist nicht einmal der Ansatz eines Starvorganges beim 
hochfahren das etrex zu erkennen. Offensichtlich wird der Ladevorgang sofoert 
abgebrochen.

Gruß UMAX974

Am 19.04.2011 um 15:11 schrieb UMAX974:

 Hallo Liste,
 
 seit 2 Tagen bekomme ich die gmapsupp.img von der german-daily nicht mehr auf 
 meinem etrex Legend Cx zum laufen. Kann das jemand mal überprüfen?
 
 Danke
 
 UMAX974
 
 btw.: Was läuft zur Zeit im Blick auf die AIO weiter, es ist so verdächtig 
 ruhig geworden - (die Urlaubszeit naht)


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Re: [Talk-de] OSM-Wochennotiz Nr. 39

2011-04-19 Thread Kay Drangmeister

Hallo Marc

Gehling Marc schrieb:

die Wochennotiz Nr. 39 ... ist da
  



Ich wollte nur mal kurz, dafür kräftig, DANKE sagen für die Wochennotiz,
und zwar an dich und alle Autoren. Ich komme immer seltener dazu hier
alles mitzulesen und genieße die Wochennotiz sehr!

Vielen Dank,
Kay

P.S. wollte das zuerst als PM schicken, dachte aber dann, dass das ruhig
mal öffentlich gesagt bzw. wiederholt werden kann.


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[Talk-de] Hack Weekend Essen - 10.-12. Juni

2011-04-19 Thread Jochen Topf
(Dies ist die Übersetzung einers Postings in der dev-Liste von Martijn van Exel
m...@rtijn.org)

Hi!

Anfang des Monats gab es auf der FOSSGIS in Heidelberg einige Diskussionen rund
um die Frage, wie man (einfacher) mit historischen OSM-Daten arbeiten kann,
also mit dem full history planet dump. Eine Analyse der historischen Daten in
OSM wird immer wichtiger für die Visualisierung, Analyse und Aufarbeitung von
Vandalismus und anderem problematischem Verhalten. Aus diesen Diskussionen
ergab sich der Wunsch nach einem Hack Weekend für dieses - und andere - Themen.

Wir haben für das Pfingstwochenende (10-12. Juni) das wunderbaren Linuxhotel
reserviert. Bisher gibt es kein Sponsoring (wird dran gearbeitet, wer beitragen
kann, bitte melden). Aber auch so gibts im Linuxhotel ein sehr gutes Angebot:
EUR 60 für das Wochenende (EUR 90 im EInzelzimmer) inkl. Frühstück, Benutzung
des Seminarraums, Internet, Getränke, usw.

Mehr Infos auf dieser Wiki-Seite:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Hack_Weekend_Essen_June_2011

Trag Deinen Namen dort ein, wenn Du kommen willst. Weitere Themen sind auch
willkommen.

Maximal 15-20 Leute können dabei sein, abhängig von der Anzahl der Leute, die
sich Räume teilen.

Jochen
-- 
Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  http://www.remote.org/jochen/  +49-721-388298


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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-19 Thread Torsten Leistikow
Frederik Ramm schrieb am 18.04.2011 22:19:
 Irgendwann habe ich ihm mal eine recht freundliche Mail geschrieben, so
 nach dem Motto, ich wuerde manchmal auch an seinen Sachen was aendern,
 und ich wollte ihn ja zu nichts draengen, aber ob er von diesem
 Lizenzwechsel gehoert hat, und ob er mir vielleicht sagen koennte, wie
 seine Haltung dazu ist (denn wenn ich weiss, dass er nicht mitmacht,
 waere es z.B. bloed von mir, einen von ihm gezeichneten Strassenlauf zu
 verfeinern).
 
 Es kam keine Antwort. Nicht weiter schlimm, dachte ich. Allerdings war
 er nun gleich einer der ersten auf der Ablehner-Seite, und da war ich
 ehrlich gesagt schon ein bisschen angepisst.

Eine sehr aehnliche Beschreibung koennte auch auf mich zutreffen (ich denke
aber, ich bin nicht der von dir angeschriebene).

Auf die bei mir eingegangene, entsprechende Mail habe ich nicht geantwortet,
weil sie keinerlei konkreten Bezug hatte und so aussah, als ob sie an alle
Mapper geschickt worden ist, die der neuen Lizenz noch nicht zugestimmt hatten.
= Sie hat es nicht ueber meinen persoenlichen Spam-Filter geschafft.

In dem von dir geschilderten Fall kann es also gut sein, dass du nicht der
einzige warst, der den Mapper angeschrieben hat, und aufgrund einer solchen
Vorgeschichte deine Mail dann unbeantwortet blieb, ohne dass der Betreffende was
gegen dich oder dein Anliegen hatte.

Gruss
Torsten

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[Talk-de] Marble Virtual Globe 1.1 veröffentlicht

2011-04-19 Thread Torsten Rahn

Hallo,

Ich wollte nur kurz darauf aufmerksam machen, dass es eine neue Version von 
Marble gibt! Neu sind in Marble 1.1 u.a.:

* Ein Kartenwizard zum Erstellen von Karten in Marble anhand von WMS, 
Weltkarten-bitmaps oder statischen Urls (wie OpenStreetMap)
* Ein Erdbeben und Social Network Plugin
* Erweiterte Plugin Konfiguration
* Sprachausgabe für Navigation  Routing
* Karteneditiermodus mit Unterstützung für Potlatch, JOSM und Merkaator
 
Mehr dazu unter:

http://edu.kde.org/marble/current_1.1.php

Pakete für Windows, Mac OSX, Nokia N900 und Linux finden sich unter:

http://edu.kde.org/marble/download.php


Viele Grüße,

Torsten

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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-19 Thread Michael Kugelmann

Am 19.04.2011 11:31, schrieb Sven Geggus:

  PS: Leider bist Du nicht der einzige PD ja aber nicht OBDL-User.
Ähm entweder ich habe PD missverstanden oder ich kann der dahinterstehenden
Logik nicht folgen. PD erlaubt ja gerade, dass ich die Daten nehmen kann und
unter welcher schrägen Lizenz auch immer zu vertreiben. Also ist PD doch
automatisch auch OBDL und alle anderen Lizenzen dieser Welt.
Ja, deswegen die Frage: warum lehnst Du dann bei OSM die OBDL ab? Wenn 
es Dir sowieso egal ist was mit den Daten passiert, dann sollte Dich ein 
Ja zur OBDL doch eigentlich nicht stören? Warum als nein, keine 
Zustimmung ankreuzen? Das verstehe ich eben nicht.



Grüße,
Michael.


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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-19 Thread Michael Kugelmann

Am 19.04.2011 10:25, schrieb Florian Lohoff:

Dann guck mal bitte in die Mailinglisten archive bevor du dich
hier so beleidigend aeusserst ... *plonk*
Das war in keinstem beledigend gemeint. Aber Dein Statement liest sich 
so als würdest Du

* völlig überraschend
* das erste mal
etwas von der Lizenzumstellung und vom Zeitplan hören. Wenn es etwas 
unmissverständlicher gewesen wäre hätte ich das Statement sicher nicht 
so abgegeben. Sorry...



Grüße,
Michael.


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Re: [Talk-de] Auswertung der ersten Reaktionen auf Lizenzwechsel Phase 3

2011-04-19 Thread Markus

Hallo Frederik


Hielte ich PD fuer durchsetzbar, so wuerde ich mich dafuer einsetzen
anstatt fuer CT+ODbL.


Wir sprachen schon öfter (seit Jahren?) darüber.

Was ich nicht verstehe:
Wenn viele aus dem Projekt PD möchten,
wieso lautet dann die Frage nicht:
- stimmst du PD zu?
- stimmst du ODbL zu?
- oder willst du bei CC-by-SA bleiben?

Ich bin sicher, der PD-Balken wird zunehmend länger werden :-)

Gruss, Markus

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Re: [Talk-de] PDF von Wanderung erstellen

2011-04-19 Thread mipost1
Ich verwende dafür http://www.routeconverter.de.
Hat (für gelegentliche Nutzung) den Vorteil, sehr intuitiv menugeführt zu sein 
...
Es können verschiedene Karten hinterlegt werden.
Gruß
Michael 
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[Talk-it] Come si mappa un tempio greco?

2011-04-19 Thread Infoweblan di Roberto Vito Gerardo
Devo mappare una zona archeologica. Come si mappa un tempio greco?

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Re: [Talk-it] Come si mappa un tempio greco?

2011-04-19 Thread Infoweblan di Roberto Vito Gerardo
Grazie!

2011/4/19, David Paleino da...@debian.org:
 On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 12:40:41 +0200, Infoweblan di Roberto Vito Gerardo
 wrote:

 Devo mappare una zona archeologica. Come si mappa un tempio greco?

 historic=ruins
 building=temple
 tourism=attraction

 ?

 --
  . ''`.   Debian developer | http://wiki.debian.org/DavidPaleino
  : :'  : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/
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[Talk-it] Tendaggi Biancheria per la casa

2011-04-19 Thread Giacomo Boschi

che tag metto per un negozio che vende tende, asciugamani accappatoi?


--
Giacomo Boschi
http://gwilbor.wordpress.com/

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Re: [Talk-it] Simone Cortesi (news)

2011-04-19 Thread Simone Cortesi
On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 13:56, Alessandro Rubini rubini-l...@gnudd.com wrote:
 I meant as in yes please find him not yes we have found him

 I found him: living nearby I looked for his place and found his family.

 They made me talk with him at the phone: he had some health issues
 that he wants to keep private, but he's well and will be back soon.

Grazie,
sto meglio adesso.

staro' parzialmente offline ancora per qualche giorno, ma sto meglio.

grazie a tutti per tutte le telefonate (a cui non ho risposto) e per i
messaggi privati.

grazie.

-S

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Re: [Talk-it] pubblicità guerriglia per Openstreetmap

2011-04-19 Thread Maurizio Napolitano
Intanto sembra che qualcuno si sia adoperato anche dalle nostre parti ...

http://de.straba.us/2011/04/19/insolita-pubblicita-per-openstreetmap/

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Re: [Talk-it] pubblicità guerriglia per Openstreetmap

2011-04-19 Thread Luca Delucchi
Il 19 aprile 2011 16:57, Maurizio Napolitano napoo...@gmail.com ha scritto:
 Intanto sembra che qualcuno si sia adoperato anche dalle nostre parti ...

 http://de.straba.us/2011/04/19/insolita-pubblicita-per-openstreetmap/


:-D

-- 
ciao
Luca

http://gis.cri.fmach.it/delucchi/
www.lucadelu.org

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Re: [Talk-it] fontanelle

2011-04-19 Thread Alberto Nogaro
-Original Message-
From: Fabri [mailto:erfab...@gmail.com]
Sent: martedì 19 aprile 2011 1.49
To: openstreetmap list - italiano
Subject: [Talk-it] fontanelle

Voi come vi comportate quando trovate una fontanella non funzionante da
cui non fuoriesce l'acqua? La aggiungete lo stesso oppure no? E se la
aggiungete, mettete una qualche indicazione tipo un note=out of service

A mio parere, se non funziona non deve apparire come tale, a meno che non si
abbia motivo di ritenere che il malfunzionamento sia solo temporaneo. 

Io metterei solo la nota per il mappatore, in cui dico sia che c'è una
fontanella, sia che non funziona, magari specifico anche la data in cui è
stato verificato che non funzionava.

Se metti anche amenity=drinking_water, c'è il rischio che i tag in cui si
specifica che non funziona non vengano visti. Mettendo la nota eviti che
qualcuno in futuro la mappi come fontanella senza accertarsi del
funzionamento.

Ciao
Alberto


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Re: [Talk-it] pubblicità guerriglia per Openstreetmap

2011-04-19 Thread Michael von Glasow

M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:

2011/4/18 Daniele Forsidfo...@gmail.com:

Il 18 aprile 2011 12:21, Fabio Alessandro Locati ha scritto:


Prepariamo un documento così poi basta aggiungere la data e stamparlo?

sei sicuro che si possa attaccare?
non è un'affissione illegale?


lo è sicuramente, quindi non mettete il vostro numero di telefono...
tanto il numero di telefono non serve, se (come nella foto) è indicata 
l'ora in cui è avvenuto l'aggiornamento in OSM, della quale si può con 
poca fatica risalire al changeset e perciò al utente che ha aggiornato i 
dati ed è il primo candidato per quanto riguarda un'eventuale 
affissione illegale in merito...


Una bella idea, ma bisognerebbe trovare qualche modo legale per fare 
tale pubblicita - a parte di poter garantire la copertura sufficiente e 
l'aggiornamento tempestivo della zona interessata. Se no, l'utente che 
cambia a OSM tornerà alla soluzione commerciale tra poco (vuol dire: 
dopo il prossimo blocco NON segnalato), dopodiché sarà difficile 
convincerlo di nuovo di noi...


Michael

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Re: [Talk-it] Salve a tutti

2011-04-19 Thread Damjan Gerl

19.04.2011 - 18:18 - Traffyk:

Salve gruppo di Openstreetmap, sono Raffaele Nappo da Ottaviano in
Provincia di Napoli, utente affezionato di OSM e contributore di tanto
in tanto.
Mi sono iscritto alla vostra talk per leggere i vostri messaggi e
consigli in quanto essendo un neofita non padroneggio con grazia tutti
gli strumenti a disposizione e quindi accetto qualsiasi critica perchè
mi permette di imparare e migliorarmi sempre di più.


Ciao e benvenuto!


Sto mappando il mio paese e parte della zona vesuviana-agro-nolana,
maggiori info su di me le trovate nella mia pagina wiki, link in fondo.

Di recente ho restaurato tutte le strade di accesso e interne al Vulcano
Buono di Nola con le mie traccie gpx personali e conoscenza mnemonica
del territorio e ho avuto modo di confrontare il fix delle coordinate
delle mappe di Bing, che utilizzo per ricalcare le strade in congunzione
con i miei dati personali, sono davvero molto accurati e dopo aver fatto
un confronto diretto Google Maps - Bing direi che le coordinate rispetto
a cosa mostrano in fotografia si equivalgono quasi del tutto.

Un esempio lampante è il ricalcamento da Bing della SS268 (una
superstrada in corso di aggiornamento a doppia carreggiata con
raddoppiamento della corsia zona Vesuviana) che confrontato con Google
Maps grazie ad un plugin, che sovrappone il layer di OSM, installato su
Google Earth è molto simile.
So molto bene che non devo assolutamente utilizzare Google per i dati,
ho letto che addirittura si effettuano controlli a campione per la bontà
dei dati quindi vi chiedo: visto che bing offre delle coordinate
assolutamente buone e accurate al pari di google come possiamo fare a
dimostrare di essere in buona fede?
è possibile incorrere in rischi del genere e rischiare di vedere
compromesso tutto il proprio duro lavoro?


Io posso dirti solo che controllando la bontà delle mappe Bing nella mia 
zona (Trieste-FVG) sono abbastanza spostate/errate come 
georeferenziazione. Mentre le PCN sono veramente molto meglio. Mentre 
per la bontà delle immagini vanno a zone: certe zone molto buone, altre 
molto peggio delle pcn.



Vi ringrazio per l'attenzione e spero di poter far parte anche io dei
vostri.
Comunico inoltre che mi piacerebbe conoscere altri utenti della mia zona
per mappare insieme la zona.

A presto
Raffaele Nappo
Traffyk


utenza OSM http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Traffyk
utenza WIKi http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Traffyk


Ciao
Damjan

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Re: [Talk-it] pubblicità guerriglia per Openstreetmap

2011-04-19 Thread Carlo Stemberger

Il 19/04/2011 19:08, Michael von Glasow ha scritto:
tanto il numero di telefono non serve, se (come nella foto) è indicata 
l'ora in cui è avvenuto l'aggiornamento in OSM, della quale si può con 
poca fatica risalire al changeset e perciò al utente che ha aggiornato 
i dati ed è il primo candidato per quanto riguarda un'eventuale 
affissione illegale in merito...


Eh, ma un indizio non è una prova :)

Evitate di attaccare cartelli in zone con telecamere e sistemi di 
videosorveglianza, mi raccomando ;)


Carlo

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Re: [Talk-it] Salve a tutti

2011-04-19 Thread marcram

Il 19/04/2011 18.18, Traffyk ha scritto:

So molto bene che non devo assolutamente utilizzare Google per i dati,
ho letto che addirittura si effettuano controlli a campione per la bontà
dei dati quindi vi chiedo:  visto che bing offre delle coordinate
assolutamente buone e accurate al pari di google come possiamo fare a
dimostrare di essere in buona fede?
è possibile incorrere in rischi del genere e rischiare di vedere
compromesso tutto il proprio duro lavoro?


Se quelle son le strade, non possono accusarti di aver copiato da loro...
A meno che le tracce non siano perfettamente sovrapponibili (e magari 
molto diverse dalla realtà), oppure siano state copiate le false 
strade che google aggiunge di proposito...


Ciao
Marco


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Re: [Talk-it] pubblicità guerriglia per Openstreetmap

2011-04-19 Thread niubii
Il giorno 19 aprile 2011 19:57, Carlo Stemberger carlo.stember...@gmail.com
 ha scritto:


 Evitate di attaccare cartelli in zone con telecamere e sistemi di
 videosorveglianza, mi raccomando ;)


Per favore, evitate di attaccare roba abusiva in assoluto.
Gia' ci pensano i politici, i promoter, gli attacchini abusivi, il circo
Orfei, le agenzie immobiliari... adesso vogliamo iniziare pure noi?

Tra l'altro: non so a voi, ma io trovo irresponsabile attaccare roba sulla
segnaletica di cantiere, la si rende poco visibile  e invece è fatta apposta
per essere vista da lontano.


-- 
Ciao
/niubii/
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