Re: [OSM-talk] software requirements for OSM Editor: Firefox

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

This is not OSM's problem to solve.

Ancient web browser slowly becomes unusable = expected behavior.

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023, 7:26 AM Martin Trautmann  wrote:

> On 23-10-06 12:55, Tom Hughes via talk wrote:
> > No it was released in June 2020. October 2021 was the last
> > security patches.
> >
> > To answer the original question there have been any deliberate
> > changes that I know but given the error it's entirely possible
> > that FF has fixed something in what CSP rules it checks for what
> > requests.
>
>
> I doubt that since FF did not see any changes here for some time,
> unfortunately. So it appears to be from an OSM editor's change.
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed bulk removal of service=driveway2

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

Since there seems to be community consensus for the removal, I have
notified the main proponent at:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/130249355

And also opened a matching thread on the community forum.

On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 6:07 AM Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 25/06/2023 00:02, Brian M. Sperlongano wrote:
> > And indeed, nine months later, we see that not only has the work not
> > gotten done, but while we all squabbled away with our pet views about
> > automated editing, we find that we agreed to nothing, and the mapper
> > has quietly continued to add this nonsense tag to the database unabated:
> > https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/service=driveway2#chronology
> >
> > For the original thread, see:
> >
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2022-September/087734.html
> >
> Has anyone actually mentioned this discussion to the proponent of the
> tag?  If I've got the right user (and I may not have)
> http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=741163
> suggests not.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed bulk removal of service=driveway2

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 12:00 PM Tobias Knerr  wrote:

> On 03.09.22 at 12:52, Simon Poole wrote:
> > Anyway IMHO this would seem to make more sense as a maproulette
> > challenge or osmose warning than a bulk edit given the number is quite
> > manageable and at least some of the objects can probably be mapped to
> > one of the "proper" subtypes.
>
> Perfect is the enemy of good and insisting on doing it manually will
> just result in the work not getting done.
>
> I support doing this as an automated edit. Anyone who wants to set up a
> Maproulette task to inspect all ways that were previously tagged
> service=driveway2 is welcome to do so. This way, if the task doesn't get
> done, at least it won't have prevented the removal of a nonsensical and
> confusing value from the database.
>

And indeed, nine months later, we see that not only has the work not gotten
done, but while we all squabbled away with our pet views about automated
editing, we find that we agreed to nothing, and the mapper has quietly
continued to add this nonsense tag to the database unabated:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/service=driveway2#chronology

For the original thread, see:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2022-September/087734.html
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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 3:38 PM Mike Thompson  wrote:

> On Wed, May 3, 2023, 1:00 PM Brian M. Sperlongano 
> wrote:
>
>> I would caution against hyper-simplifying the combativeness of
>> the mailing lists
>>
> I am not sure using a term such as "combative" is going to be effective in
> bringing about the change you desire.   First the term has strong negative
> connotation
>

Whether it's negative is a value judgment, but it's absolutely my
observation. For me, it's descriptive, and I've simply adapted to dealing
with it to get things done on the project. So far, the mailing list hasn't
gone away as a relevant communication space, though I do agree that its
influence is waning. So here I am, dealing with it out of necessity.
However, I absolutely believe people when they express disdain for this
forum.

and second it is non specific.
>

When I send a message to the list, I craft it with several expectations
regarding how it will be received.

I expect that every word of any message I send to the lists may be picked
apart and quoted out of context. I expect that my motivations may be
questioned and that commenters will assume a hidden agenda. I expect
argumentation, criticism, judgment, and accusations that I should have
known better or been aware of a more correct or expected
behavior, principle, or expectation. I expect my
personal/professional/project affiliations, nationality, demographics, and
socio-economic status to be scrutinized in search of bias. I expect threads
to diverge into rabbit holes and meta-discussions. I expect new ideas to be
quickly dismissed. I expect the forest may be lost for the trees and for
hyper-specific details to be nitpicked. I expect that good-faith proposed
solutions to problems may be dismissed without offering alternatives. I
expect to be held to an unreasonable or unattainable standard of evidence
or performance.

That is probably not an exhaustive list, but that's what I mean by
combative, and I don't think that minor changes in word choice will change
the fundamental nature of how people communicate here. I'm sure I'm not
alone in this experience.

And worse, to meaningfully participate here, I often feel compelled to
engage in many of these same combative behaviors that I'm describing to
make my voice heard against this backdrop, so it becomes self-reinforcing.

The people you view as combative probably don't see themselves as combative
> and don't what specifically is causing you to perceive them as such, and
> thus don't know what to do differently.
>

Indeed.

That's why I'm glad that people much smarter than I am on these topics are
exploring the problem.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

I would caution against hyper-simplifying the combativeness of the mailing
lists as "cultural differences". I can think of several German participants
on Slack and Discord that dispel this stereotype.  Similarly, I can think
of several American commenters who are notoriously abrasive on the mailing
lists.  Some have suggested that "open source absolutists" as a group are
the issue. However, we don't seem to have the same complaints about the new
Discourse community forum. Other explanations I've heard suggest that
real-time chat, moderation, and emoji reactions make for a more
collaborative atmosphere for some reason. I don't have the answer, but I
think this thread highlights that there are very real differences in the
various communication spaces that are worth exploring. I welcome any effort
to learn more about how we can maximize people's willingness to participate
in the project. If a meaningful demographic is repeatedly saying that
people's behaviors in communication spaces are reducing participation, I
don't think that should be dismissed or hand-waved away with simple
explanations. Unlike others apparently, I don't especially care who does
that research. If the data, analysis, or methodology are bad or opaque then
that will speak for itself. In the meantime, I assume good faith and await
what the people willing to get their hands dirty and work on the problem
have to say.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey about OSM communication behaviors

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 1:06 PM Courtney 
wrote:

> This conversation has opened up important new questions.  Why is the main
> "Talk" channel the only one that is producing pushback? Why is it the only
> one that is producing such a negative tone?
>


> I don't understand the degree of ire and frankly, incredulity that is
> being levied here.
>


> Is that the standard here? Wait for perfection or do nothing?  Is that how
> OSM itself was built? I don't understand the tone or the defensiveness of
> these comments. If the goal is to advance the OSM project, is it better to
> gate keep all inquiries to a suffocating degree?
>

I'd say you've succinctly captured the nature and character of this
particular communication channel and illuminated one reason why so little
chatter happens here compared to elsewhere.
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Re: [OSM-talk] replace some obviously mistaken surface values by their clear intended meaning

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

I agree with the proposed edits.

On Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 12:58 PM Mateusz Konieczny via talk <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Errata: paragraph 4 from the bottom should be
>
> "There is no point in manual drudgery here, with values clearly
> replaceable by better matches."
>
> sorry, I copied wrong bot edit justification template.
>
> Feb 11, 2023, 18:48 by talk@openstreetmap.org:
>
> I propose to replace following surface tags by doing an automated edit:
>
> obvious typos:
>
> `surface=paving stones` → `surface=paving_stones`
> `surface=Paving_stones` → `surface=paving_stones`
> `surface=paving_stones:` → `surface=paving_stones`
>
> different form than standard surface value:
>
> `surface=wooden` → `surface=wood`
> `surface=cobblestones` → `surface=cobblestone`
>
> Polish name to English one:
>
> `surface=żwirowa` → `surface=gravel`
> `surface=kostka` → `surface=paving_stones`
> `surface=gruntowa` → `surface=unpaved`
>
> English vs very close to English but actually different:
>
> `surface=asfalt` → `surface=asphalt`
>
> Edit would be automatic, rerun from time to time, split into small
> changeset by geographic areas and run by
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny%20-%20bot%20account/history%20bot%20account
>
> Why it is useful? It helps newbies to avoid becoming confused. It
> protects against such values becoming established. Without drudgery
> that would be required from the manual cleanup. It also makes easier to
> add missing surface= values
>
> Why automatic edit? I have a massive queue (in thousands and tens of
> thousands) of automatically detectable issues which are not reported by
> mainstream validators, require fixes and fix requires review or
> complete manual cleanup.
>
> There is no point in manual drudgery here, with values completely useless.
>
> This values here do NOT require manual overview. If this cases will
> turn out to be an useful signal of invalid editing than I will remain
> reviewing nearby areas where bot edited.
>
> And I fixed some manually and they were not a great sign of a problematic
> data.
>
> Yes, bot edit WILL cause objects to be edited. Nevertheless, as result
> map data quality will improve.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Dubious websites added to tourist attractions?

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

Looks like most of these have been cleaned up but there's a couple left:

https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1qU8

On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 11:13 AM Dave F via talk 
wrote:

> Hi
>
> You may wish to take a look at these changesets by a single contributor to
> decide if  you think these are  dubious websites added to tourist
> attractions.
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Aliaksandr%20Kopyshau/history#map=1/37/3
>
> The one in my locale had poor spelling (translation to English?) &
> grammar, took a long time to load & claimed if was copyright of the
> organisation/object that the webpage was about, even though it clearly
> wasn't (It was a bridge owned by the local authority).
>
> They all have similar, yet slightly different URLs
>
> From the wiki:
> The website tag can be used to provide the full URL to the
>
> *official website. *These are clearly not official.
>
> DaveF
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

Navigational landmarks while hiking.

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 10:17 PM john whelan  wrote:

> Perhaps you could expand on the benefits of mapping them?
>
> Thanks John
>
> On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 10:09 PM stevea,  wrote:
>
>> I'd like to say "oh, please..." because this seems a bit harsh.  But I
>> understand that people can be sensitive.
>>
>> But this is OSM and I'd like to believe we live in a world that is more
>> free rather than less free.  What's next, do we stop mapping pre-school or
>> kindergartens because they have children?
>>
>> Criminals are going to use maps, yes, that is going to happen.  We
>> mappers ourselves are not criminals for mapping.
>>
>> Map.  Map well.  Criminals will be criminals.  While there are book
>> banning people, librarians are not criminals.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of "Proprietary" imagery to edit OSM

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 9:00 PM Minh Nguyen 
wrote:

> Vào lúc 07:11 2022-10-30, Greg Troxel đã viết:
> > But then the company doing the editing should document which company's
> > imagery and which revision year they are using.   Things should be as
> > transparent as possible, and this doesn't feel that way.
>
> We could ask if the honor code should apply to such a prolific editing
> team. But do we actually have a problem with Lyft fabricating edits? I
> haven't seen evidence of that; it would be quite surprising for a
> company so invested in our project.
>

I have to say, I'm pretty unconcerned with abstract notions of
"transparency" here, as the entire project essentially works on the honor
system.  What I am concerned about is, if an editor is using an imagery
source that a random mapper can't access, they ought to at least indicate
the age of that imagery, to assist the next mapper that looks at the edit,
to understand why an edit may appear different from the current publicly
available imagery.
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Re: [OSM-talk] razed railways and other things that don't exist today

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 1:45 PM Colin Smale  wrote:

> Are underground pipelines and electricity transmission cables just as
> controversial? They are covered over, built on, and completely unobservable
> from the surface. They may also have been taken out of service many decades
> ago.
>

In the US, generally no.  They are quite infrequently mapped, and they're
tagged as an underground feature when they are.  That's quite a different
scenario from an ostensibly above-ground feature that is not present to the
above-ground observer.
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Re: [OSM-talk] razed railways and other things that don't exist today

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 4:37 AM Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> in the spirit of friendly collaboration I would say that a limited amount
> of
> stuff-that-should-not-be-in-OSM can be *tolerated*. If someone does a
> lot of good work for OSM otherwise and would really like to record an
> ancient former railroad that ran through where their house now sits - I
> shrug and let them do it.


In my experience, it is more often the opposite situation that happens.  A
mapper, unaware of the lengthy debates on the topic of former railroads, is
mapping her house and removes the bit of abandoned rail currently on the
map in that spot, assuming it is a data error or poor import.  After
all. she's quite aware that there is a house and not a railway at that
location as she has personally surveyed it.  Sometime later, an abandoned
railway enthusiast comes along and angrily harasses the mapper for removing
the bit of railway that quite rightly isn't there. It's been my experience
that allowing enthusiasts to map phantom railways causes far more grief and
contention between mappers than simply drawing a line and saying "we don't
map things that aren't there."
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Re: [OSM-talk] Your experience in reaching out to Maps.me users ?

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

Huh. Yes, that's exactly what it did.  Certainly not the behavior I'd
expect.

On Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 11:58 AM Michał Brzozowski 
wrote:

> Hi Brian, the comment was probably made into an OSM Note. Check Notes on
> that OSM user page.
>
> Greetings
> Michał
>
> czw., 12 lis 2020, 17:56 użytkownik Brian M. Sperlongano <
> zelonew...@gmail.com> napisał:
>
>> I downloaded and made a test edit (adding an address to a local POI) with
>> maps.me just now to understand how it works.  It does at least make you
>> log in to OSM.  I entered in a comment on the change, however, I note that
>> maps.me overwrote my user-entered comment with a generic comment in the
>> changeset.
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 10:27 AM Stephan Knauss 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> On 12.11.2020 10:55, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
>>> > Is it just me or are Maps.me Openstreetmap contributors unaware of
>>> > Openstreetmap messages ? Does anyone here have seen Maps.me
>>> > Openstreetmap contributors answer to Openstreetmap messages ?
>>>
>>> I share your experience. Typical maps.me edits are of low quality and
>>> frequently show a misuse of tags, certainly not following to our
>>> community standards.
>>>
>>> I have a very low response rate on comments. Probaly one out of hundred
>>> responds. And I have not seen them going back to fix their edits ever.
>>>
>>> I think OSM API should block edits until email address is confirmed.
>>> And probably re-check the response to emails once a year or switch the
>>> account into read-only mode.
>>> Participating in changeset discussions or using osm messaging could
>>> reset that counter as well.
>>>
>>> Stephan
>>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Your experience in reaching out to Maps.me users ?

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

I downloaded and made a test edit (adding an address to a local POI) with
maps.me just now to understand how it works.  It does at least make you log
in to OSM.  I entered in a comment on the change, however, I note that
maps.me overwrote my user-entered comment with a generic comment in the
changeset.

On Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 10:27 AM Stephan Knauss 
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> On 12.11.2020 10:55, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
> > Is it just me or are Maps.me Openstreetmap contributors unaware of
> > Openstreetmap messages ? Does anyone here have seen Maps.me
> > Openstreetmap contributors answer to Openstreetmap messages ?
>
> I share your experience. Typical maps.me edits are of low quality and
> frequently show a misuse of tags, certainly not following to our
> community standards.
>
> I have a very low response rate on comments. Probaly one out of hundred
> responds. And I have not seen them going back to fix their edits ever.
>
> I think OSM API should block edits until email address is confirmed.
> And probably re-check the response to emails once a year or switch the
> account into read-only mode.
> Participating in changeset discussions or using osm messaging could
> reset that counter as well.
>
> Stephan
>
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[OSM-talk] Use of area/relation icons on boundaries

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

Hello,

I've been working to improve various pages on the Wiki.  I've encountered
inconsistencies in how the "area" and "relation" icons are used in the wiki
documentation of boundary relations.  It's not clear which of the two icons
should be used when describing tags that may be applied to boundaries (as
opposed to mere multipolygons).  Various pages across the wiki are using
the icons inconsistently, and having consistent pictoral representations
are useful in providing clear documentation and intent to the community.

I wrote up a more detailed description of the problem on Talk:Wiki and
would appreciate community input on which convention should be used:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki#Usage_of_icons_on_boundaries
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Carto not updating

[Marc M.]

Le 28.06.20 à 14:23, Ture Pålsson a écrit :
>> 27 juni 2020 kl. 17:20 skrev Marc M. :
>> Le 27.06.20 à 17:04, ET Commands a écrit :
>>> Is something wrong with the OSM Carto servers?
>> one diff freeze the update
>> sequenceNumber=4082799
>> timestamp=2020-06-26T19:17:02Z
>> ppl on #osm-dev are working on this.
> Does anyone have the osm ID of the geometry that tripped things up? Seems 
> like a good test case. :-)

tmp fix target 3 relations with multiples errors (self-crossing outer)
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Vxd

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Carto not updating

[Marc M.]

Le 28.06.20 à 00:25, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) a écrit :
> Where is #osm-dev? 

on irc://irc.oftc.net/osm-dev

info about irc/web/mnatrix client
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/IRC

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Marc M.]

Le 26.06.20 à 14:09, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
>> I don't care about SLA. Does OSM have SLA?
> The point is when you distribute your storage to people at
> home we will have at most 10% of images online all the time.

what facts are you basing that number on ?
The worst internet connection I have has 98% availability.
of course, it's not mandatory to have a pay-per-use dialup :)
not to mention local chapters or companies with servers in datacenters
or with fiber connection (where 2 instances of the PoC are running
right now).

> Disregarding the case that upstream bandwidth internationally
> is pretty bad so you tend to have access times
> for images of about 4-5 seconds at best. (3MByte image at
> a typical ADSL upstream with 1.5MBit/s and international latencys)

your logic does not correspond to a distributed storage.
it is not "one disk that sends one photo to one user"
it is the pool that sends the pool of requests to all users.
if you have 1000 adsl to serve 100 simultaneous requests,
this is the equivalent of 15Mb/s par request (minus the management).
I leave it up to you to imagine an order of magnitude for the conversion
between simultaneous requests and users.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Carto not updating

[Marc M.]

Hello,

Le 27.06.20 à 17:04, ET Commands a écrit :
> Is something wrong with the OSM Carto servers?

one diff freeze the update
sequenceNumber=4082799
timestamp=2020-06-26T19:17:02Z
ppl on #osm-dev are working on this.

Regards,
Marc

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Marc M.]

Hello,

Le 26.06.20 à 12:42, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
> this is NOT a trivial

no one said it is trivial, or it would be over by now.
but some of us try more positive alternatives than "sitting
down and doing nothing because it's impossible".
maybe it will succeed, maybe it will only be 1/10th of what
is hoped for, maybe it will not succeed.

with this in mind 20k€/year for storage is one to explore.
distributed storage, too.

I don't care about SLA. Does OSM have SLA?
No, we're doing the best we can.

today, it is easy to make a map for your own photo storage.
it's also possible to make a thematic instance for a local community.
it's possible and easy to feed it from your mapillary account.
it's already not so bad!

i don't remember osm starting with a 100k£ call before the first test.
thanks to the precursors for not being aware that it's not a hobby pet
project someone is running from his/her basement.

Regards,
Marc

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Marc M.]

Le 25.06.20 à 16:16, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
> Mapillary themselves say on their web pages that they already
> have 1,199,363,907 images. Thats 3515625 GB or 3.5TB Data 
> assuming 3MByte per image.

3 500 000 GB ~ 3 500 TB ~ 3.5 PB ?
~100k€ ~100k$ hardware cost for the storage.
or 1000 people sharing a 6TB disk on a distributed system

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Marc M.]

Le 20.06.20 à 12:28, Andy Mabbett a écrit :
> Were you not aware that your contributions to OSM, and Mapilary, are
> already under an open licence, which allows anyone - including
> Facebook - to reuse them, even commercially?

having the right to download images is not at all the same thing
as, for example, having access to ip/cookies/timestamp
and a great deep learning database.

for some people, contributing to increasing FB profiling,
even with a open license, is not the same thing as contributing
to a open license database not owned by a gafam member.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Could/should editors detect/disallow huge changeset bboxes?

[Marc M.]

Le 12.06.20 à 13:00, Frederik Ramm a écrit :
> desirable

imho yes, including offline editor like maps.me,
when a contributor edit one object at the airport
of departure and another at the airport of arrival,
both in the same changeset.

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Re: [OSM-talk] fake mapping

[Marc M.]

> it is useful to add something like
> note=edited based on survey

or survey:date=
in the hope than one day, editor 'll warn a mapper
if his source is older than the previous one.

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Re: [OSM-talk] VANDALISM !

[Marc M.]

Hello,

Le 07.06.20 à 15:07, 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk a écrit :
> how do you put it all back ?

giving a link to get a neutral opinion is often a good idea :)
the first time, just put a public message on the changeset.
there is the revert plugin in josm to cancel all the changes.
if it happens again, contact the DWG mentioning the changeset
with the comment.

Regards,
Marc

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Re: [OSM-talk] CyclOSM Lite a new cycling infrastructure map layer

[Marc M.]

Hello,

Le 26.05.20 à 17:52, Hartmut Holzgraefe a écrit :
> it doesn't even really matter: such rows should be
> visible in the overlay, even if simply rendered the same 
> as "normal" cycleways ...

on the contrary, it probably matters !
I'm not surprised that a tag that is incomprehensible outside
its country of origin is not rendered by a style that does not
come from its country.
Despite all the explanations, at worst, it should have been
a value in cycleway, for ex cycleway=bicycle_road (or =road ?)

Regards,
Marc

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Re: [OSM-talk] CyclOSM Lite a new cycling infrastructure map layer

[Marc M.]

Hello,

Le 26.05.20 à 09:36, Hartmut Holzgraefe a écrit :

> I'm missing highway=bicycle_road being rendered

only one https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/highway=bicycle_road :)
why it isn't a highway=cycleway ?

Regards,
Marc

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - remove tracking parameters

[Marc M.]

Hello,

I agree the idea and thank you for doing the operation,
can you highlight on the wiki the key and the logic ? it seem to be
key : website url source (but not   
contact:website heritage:website brand:website  
source:website operator:website was:website ?)
target : "fbclid", "gclid", "campaign_ref", "mc_id", "utm_source",
"utm_medium", "utm_term", "utm_content", "utm_campaign"

someone who doesn't read the code, must still be able
to easily understand the criteria of the operation.

Regards,
Marc

Le 13.05.20 à 13:40, Mateusz Konieczny via talk a écrit :
> URL often have unnecessary parts, typically added for tracking purposes.
> This tracking parameters sshould never appear in any osm tags.
> 
> FB, Google and other add tracking links for various purposes.
> 
> It means that it is beneficial to turn tag
> website=http://paris.intersquat.org/les-lieux/le-satellite/?fbclid=de58e340d6aa79a584552a2055042d004b9b19454bc0d7a6046fc81fc90f51
> into
> website=http://paris.intersquat.org/les-lieux/le-satellite/
> 
> This urls can be often fixed using an automated script, allowing to
> use human time on something more productive.
> 
> Human-made edit will also result in changing "last edited by"
> (while not allowing to filter out such edits unlike marked bot edit),
> there are better ways to spot areas requiring fixes and we are not lacking
> places with QA indicators that manual review is needed.
> 
> Usually tracking links are added by clueless people who just searched for
> a website and copied it from FB/Google.
> 
> There are rare cases of links created to specifically track OSM users
> see for example
> * https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/754704241/history
> ** https://www.cronauerlaw.com/?utm_source=openstreetmap
> * https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1063808111/history
> **
> http://www.travelerscoffee.ru?utm_campaign=geo&utm_source=openstreetmap&utm_medium=link
> * https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6817678019/history
> **
> https://www.resotainer.fr/agence-bonneuil-sur-marne?utm_source=open-street-map&utm_medium=recherche-locale&utm_content=openstreetmap&utm_campaign=open-street-map-garde-meubles-bonneuil-sur-marne
> * https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1684317522
> **
> http://www.travelerscoffee.ru?utm_campaign=geo&utm_source=openstreetmap&utm_medium=link
> 
> In general I have not noticed correlation between presence of tracking links
> and additional issues that would not be detected automatically.
> 
> Therefore automatic removal of tracking parameters is not causing loss of
> useful indicators of areas that should be reviewed.
> Osmose and JOSM validators and StreetComplete are offering better
> indicators.
> 
> Automatic removal would allow me to spend time on something more useful,
> than reviewing all cases where this links are present and confirming
> them one by one.
> 
> Proposed bot edit would remove links where all used parameters are tracking
> users and may be removed. Other links will be reviewed manually to catch
> also currently unknown tracking parameters.
> 
> Anchors (#section) will be preserved.
> 
> Parameters for removal across OSM: fbclid, gclid, campaign_ref, mc_id,
> utm_source, utm_medium, utm_term, utm_content, utm_campaign
> 
> Code is tested, I am currently using it in a manual review mode.
> Sole difference in but run will be disabling of manual confirmation.
> 
> I have experience with automated edits, see
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account
> 
> Yes, editing element will cause it to be edited and change "last edited"
> date.
> Effect will be exactly the same in case of using bot and manual edit
> (which I will do anyway in case of rejecting this automated edit proposal).
> Note that in case of bot edits you may filter out bot edits marked as
> automatic.
> 
> Documentation page:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/remove_tracking_parameters
> 
> Edits that would be made by bot, based on currently present tracking
> parameters:
> https://gist.github.com/matkoniecz/6710d066fea6596533f5013040eb5dc1
> 
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> 


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[OSM-talk] [Mecanical edit] booking=yes|required|no|recommended|only -> reservation=*

[Marc M.]

Hello,

in 2018, a contributor created a wiki page for the page booking=*
quickly it appeared that the documented values are exactly the same
as the reservation key.
a discussion took place with this contributor who agreed to switch to
the reservation key since it was much more common.
the fr community has also used this key, mainly for trains.
the community has also decided to switch to the reservation key
and a contry-side mecanical edit was done.

there are still ~330 booking=* tags that I plan to convert
to reservation=*.
I'm posting this message as a RFC here, the topic having already
been discussed on the wiki and on tagging a long time ago.
If the idea is appreciated, I'll of course do the wiki page to follow
the "Automated Edits code of conduct"

PS: my proposal does NOT concern the other meanings present in this key
(url booking, phone number) that we may or may not change in favor of
another key because my feeling "too big, it fails !", so this proposal
is voluntarily limited to the double booking->reservation and only that.

Regards,
Marc

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed new status for tags in the wiki: "import" for undiscussed tags that were only used by an import

[Marc M.]

Hello Joseph,

it may give the impression that this is the way it should be done.
I agree to identify these "Noise" or poor quality tags, but with a
keyword to show that it's a problem. e.g. status=bad, disputed, error, ...
it would be necessary to find a word that is not as strong as error,
but which nevertheless clearly indicates that this is not an example to
follow.

Regards,
Marc

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Re: [OSM-talk] fixme=name

[Marc M.]

Hello,

Volker Schmidt wrote
> draw attention to the fact that she
> has inserted a place without knowing the name

not setting a name=* tag do the same, without
telling other that your personal wish must be done.
otherwise another contributor will add fix=lit when he doesn't know if
the street is lit, another will add fixme=cuisine when he doesn't know
the type of cuisine, and in the end we could put fixme=list of all
possible tags on this object.
fixme must, imho, give a precise indication of an error to correct,
it's not a replacement for quests like StreetComplete.

si we may delete all fixme=name for all object without a name tag

Regards,
Marc

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcing Daylight Map Distribution

[Marc M.]

Mikel Maron wrote :

> "you don't really know what you're talking about" is a rude thing to say.

it why I said "I get the impression that..."

> And expressing a belief that FB is not capable of doing this to a small, or 
> even large degree, is not based on any factual inquiry of what they've done.

my "factual inquiry" is :
- for some change, checking it if it's valid take more time than doing
it (somebody delete a shop in a changeset with other stuffs and without
a comment about the shop : is the shop closed or not ?)
- FB has a hard time dealing with community feedback.
Either it is voluntary or it underestimates the resources needed.
It is not reasonable to think that a company can afford to do "more"
when it fails to ack previous feedback properly.

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Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Marc M.]

Hello,

Simon Poole wrote
> it is clear that using a neutral message and clear ToUs, 
> is definitely less risky than an aggressive > message without ToUs.

I fully agree with that. so I suggest that we include in the ToU :
- the "caller" may include a means of contact in its call to the tiles (
parameter like ?email=xxx in the url or http header to define).
if this one is defined, the supplier will be able to (and MAY) report
the anomaly and in an automatic way (because for the moment, it is the
volunteer who must consult the site, find the means of contact,
sometimes register on the site in order to report the violation).
Of course we may also use whois contact info.
- add in the ToS that the supplier reserves the right to add overlay
text and/or to replace and/or block tiles access, in the event of
non-compliance with the ToU.
 - add also a disclaimer stating that the provider does its best to
detect the lack of attribution but that the service is provided free of
charge, an error at this level cannot lead to a compensation, the user
being free to produce the tiles himself (with switch2som link)

this in no way prevents the experiment in progress,
on the contrary, it would increase its legitimacy.

Regards,
Marc

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcing Daylight Map Distribution

[Marc M.]

Michal Migurski wrote
> Only those edits which have been validated to contain no malicious vandalism 
> or unintentional errors so we can show them in our display maps

I get the impression that you don't really know what you're talking
about. There are many "complaints" that FB does not respond enought
to community feedback. So to believe that FB is capable of validating
even the slightest change is naive at best.
I spend a lot of time checking every changeset in 2 comfort zones, I
regularly detect anomalies, but to know if it is correct or not takes time.

Regards,
Marc

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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]

[Marc M.]

Hello,

Sören Reinecke wrote :
> created a wikipage for it. See 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Changeset/Governance .

a changeset with survey info is source=survey, not source=local
knowleadge and putting a source on the changeset is not mandatory but a
very good pratice
Apart from that, are you suggesting that the main tag become a hashtag
or is there a more fundamental idea in the page?
At the very least, such a non-consensual idea should be found somewhere
other than in a namespace that might think it's a good practice shared
by the community.

Regards,
Marc

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[OSM-talk] Features for OpenStreetCam JOSM plugin?

[m]

Hi all, 

We’ve been steadily improving the JOSM plugin for OpenStreetCam. Recently we 
added the option to go to a nearby photo regardless of the trip that it’s part 
of. At lower zooms you can now see a line to see which ways have coverage. Also 
we added caching features that can be controlled using the plugin settings.

What features would you liked to see developed next?
What do you like / dislike about the plugin so far?

Thanks,
Martijn

PS1 If you have a Github account you can add requests there also: 
https://github.com/openstreetcam/josm-plugin/issues 
 
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[OSM-talk] MapRoulette newsletter

[m]

Hi all, 

I am working on a monthly MapRoulette newsletter. You can read the March 
edition in my diary: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mvexel/diary/40756 
 

Thanks to everyone who tried MapRoulette recently and also to everyone who made 
new Challenges. Together we fixed more than 32000 tasks in the past month. If 
you want your challenge highlighted in next month’s newsletter let me know!

If you want to make a challenge but having trouble or you have an idea for a 
challenge but don’t know how to proceed, please subscribe to the 
maproule...@openstreetmap.org  mailing 
list and discuss there.

Martijn

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[OSM-talk] MapRoulette news

[m]

Hi all, 
There has been quite a bit of activity in MapRoulette lately. Both small fixes 
to MapRoulette itself and also new challenges and folks working hard to fix 
stuff in OSM through MapRoulette. So I decided to capture that in a newsletter 
and add some links to interesting / new challenges. I am thinking about doing 
such a newsletter periodically. If you’re interested to get them in your inbox 
in the future, there’s a link in the post for that. 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mvexel/diary/40635 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing broken multipolygons

[m]

Jochen Topf now has technology in place that does this specifically for 
buildings. Perhaps he can do the same for other types and help you publish?

Martijn

> On Mar 3, 2017, at 10:07 AM, Clifford Snow  wrote:
> 
> Martijn,
> I noticed a number of riverbanks with self-intersecting ways in the PNW that 
> appear on OSMI. How do I go about creating a challenge to fix them?
> 
> Clifford
> 
> On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 8:10 AM, mailto:m...@rtijn.org>> 
> wrote:
> Since the ‘self-intersecting’ challenge is now complete I featured the ‘Wrong 
> role’ challenge in MapRoulette. Happy fixing!
> Martijn
> 
>> On Feb 25, 2017, at 2:04 AM, Manfred A. Reiter > > wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Martijn,
>> 
>> 2017-02-24 23:35 GMT+01:00  mailto:m...@rtijn.org>>:
>> I made the challenge ‘Featured’ in MapRoulette so it becomes easier to spot.
>> What a mess in some places I looked at…
>> 
>> +1
>> 
>> some of them are here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Extremmapping 
>> 
>> feel free to add yours as well :)
>>  
>> Please help fix!
>> 
>> YES!
>>  
>> Martijn
>> 
>> > On Feb 22, 2017, at 1:07 AM, Jochen Topf > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 07:44:18PM +0100, Sebastiaan Couwenberg wrote:
>> >> On 02/21/2017 05:40 PM, Jochen Topf wrote:
>> >>> Find all challenges and instructions here:
>> >>> http://area.jochentopf.com/fixing.html 
>> >>> 
>> >>
>> >> My OCD complains about the typo before the challenge links, please do
>> >>
>> >> sed -i 's/Got to /Go to/g' fixing.html
>> >>
>> >> Also the Maproulette paragraph is no longer accurate now that more than
>> >> one challenge has been created.
>> >
>> > Fixed. Thank you!
>> >
>> > Jochen
>> > --
>> > Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org   
>> > https://www.jochentopf.com/   
>> > +49-351-31778688 
>> >
>> > ___
>> > talk mailing list
>> > talk@openstreetmap.org 
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk 
>> > 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> ## Manfred Reiter - -
>> ## N49° 25' 11.028" E6° 50' 47.328" 
>> ## www.weeklyOSM.eu 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us 
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch

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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing broken multipolygons

[m]

Since the ‘self-intersecting’ challenge is now complete I featured the ‘Wrong 
role’ challenge in MapRoulette. Happy fixing!
Martijn

> On Feb 25, 2017, at 2:04 AM, Manfred A. Reiter  wrote:
> 
> Hi Martijn,
> 
> 2017-02-24 23:35 GMT+01:00  mailto:m...@rtijn.org>>:
> I made the challenge ‘Featured’ in MapRoulette so it becomes easier to spot.
> What a mess in some places I looked at…
> 
> +1
> 
> some of them are here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Extremmapping 
> 
> feel free to add yours as well :)
>  
> Please help fix!
> 
> YES!
>  
> Martijn
> 
> > On Feb 22, 2017, at 1:07 AM, Jochen Topf  > > wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 07:44:18PM +0100, Sebastiaan Couwenberg wrote:
> >> On 02/21/2017 05:40 PM, Jochen Topf wrote:
> >>> Find all challenges and instructions here:
> >>> http://area.jochentopf.com/fixing.html 
> >>> 
> >>
> >> My OCD complains about the typo before the challenge links, please do
> >>
> >> sed -i 's/Got to /Go to/g' fixing.html
> >>
> >> Also the Maproulette paragraph is no longer accurate now that more than
> >> one challenge has been created.
> >
> > Fixed. Thank you!
> >
> > Jochen
> > --
> > Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org   
> > https://www.jochentopf.com/   +49-351-31778688 
> > 
> >
> > ___
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> > talk@openstreetmap.org 
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk 
> > 
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ## Manfred Reiter - -
> ## N49° 25' 11.028" E6° 50' 47.328" 
> ## www.weeklyOSM.eu 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] MapRoulette questionnaire

[m]

Hi all, 

I want to thank you for the responses so far. I received 34 and all of them are 
helpful in some way. I will leave the questionnaire up for a few more days, so 
if you still want to participate, please do. There is a vintage mappy prize for 
one random participant. 

Martijn

> On Feb 28, 2017, at 11:34 AM, m...@rtijn.org wrote:
> 
> Hi all, 
> 
> I put together a small questionnaire about MapRoulette. Your opinions and 
> ideas are really important for future development of the project, so if you 
> have used MapRoulette, I would appreciate a few minutes of your time to fill 
> it out. Anyone who leaves their email is automatically enrolled in a mappy 
> prize draw. Here is the link: https://goo.gl/forms/J8yhWC3IBsUZmTjS2 
> <https://goo.gl/forms/J8yhWC3IBsUZmTjS2> . If you don’t like Google Forms you 
> can also send me your thoughts and ideas via email.
> 
> Martijn
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[OSM-talk] MapRoulette questionnaire

[m]

Hi all, 

I put together a small questionnaire about MapRoulette. Your opinions and ideas 
are really important for future development of the project, so if you have used 
MapRoulette, I would appreciate a few minutes of your time to fill it out. 
Anyone who leaves their email is automatically enrolled in a mappy prize draw. 
Here is the link: https://goo.gl/forms/J8yhWC3IBsUZmTjS2 
 . If you don’t like Google Forms you 
can also send me your thoughts and ideas via email.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing broken multipolygons

[m]

I made the challenge ‘Featured’ in MapRoulette so it becomes easier to spot. 
What a mess in some places I looked at…Please help fix!
Martijn

> On Feb 22, 2017, at 1:07 AM, Jochen Topf  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 07:44:18PM +0100, Sebastiaan Couwenberg wrote:
>> On 02/21/2017 05:40 PM, Jochen Topf wrote:
>>> Find all challenges and instructions here:
>>> http://area.jochentopf.com/fixing.html
>> 
>> My OCD complains about the typo before the challenge links, please do
>> 
>> sed -i 's/Got to /Go to/g' fixing.html
>> 
>> Also the Maproulette paragraph is no longer accurate now that more than
>> one challenge has been created.
> 
> Fixed. Thank you!
> 
> Jochen
> -- 
> Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  https://www.jochentopf.com/  +49-351-31778688
> 
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[OSM-talk] Response to discussion about OSM and local mappers article

[Erica M Hagen]

I’m really glad to see all this discussion sparked by my post, which I have 
enjoyed reading. I’m sorry I wasn’t on this list to reply directly to many 
posts. (My article is here in case you did not see 
https://medium.com/@ricaji/openstreetmap-mapping-power-to-the-people-e938c38da93d
 
)

First of all, I did not title the article “arguments against remote mapping” 
for a reason. It’s not my axe to grind. Someone said the article is more “for” 
local mapping than against remote which is true. My background is in 
international development and that is how I’ve approached the possibilities of 
OSM as well. There are plenty of times when remote mapping is a good thing... 
The question for me is more about how to prioritize and distinguish when and 
where and how to integrate this so that it increases the profile and abilities 
of local groups in a real way. Someone said, we don’t want to exclude mappers 
because of poverty - that’s what I’m talking about.

There are quite a few parallels in development/aid work where foreigners tend 
to organize things for locals when they should be listening/ allowing local 
leadership more. That’s where I’m coming from. 

The growing efforts by HOT and Missing Maps and others are a very positive 
development, I do not mean to imply otherwise. But while something like Missing 
Maps may have a 50/50 intent, but the realities of international development 
and humanitarian work are such that it requires a lot more effort/resources for 
one 50 than the other, and with a lot less reward in terms of funding or public 
attention. As such, we need to generate much more support for, discussion of, 
and thinking around this process of engaging, organizing, supporting, funding, 
maintaining the interest of local mappers (while outside mappers are playing 
the supporting role that they should) in order to help them gain a higher 
profile and leadership. That to me is a broader membership discussion I’d 
rather see than arguing about remote mapping. It is also an opportunity since 
there is a spotlight on the remote volunteer mappers lately. They’re also 
looking to learn and understand far away places.

Someone wrote: "We need to encourage local mapping, but large-scale disasters 
create a need for immediate maps, which, in some cases, means outside help is 
needed.” This is true. But with such large scale disasters comes funding for 
mapping in other places which still has the needs of the international 
community as its focus. There’s an inevitability to the process and how it’s 
done which seems a bit premature. To me it’s important to keep up the variety 
and creativity as well as critical thinking about how we approach difficult 
topics like mapping with very vulnerable people.  I was also hoping to 
highlight the longer term community building needed and talk about that. I’m 
not sure if OSMF is the right place to bring this or not, and if not, where?

Well, I like a good debate, so I’m happy to see this and also to talk to anyone 
about any of this so feel free to contact me directly!

 
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 Map Kibera   |  OpenSchoolsKenya 
   
Check out my new talk from TEDxGateway here! Mapping the Slums 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Combined bicycle & footway

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/8/21 Richard Fairhurst :
> Tomas Straupis wrote:
>> I would like such combined ways to indicate that they are
>> created for BOTH cyclists and walkers (especially then this
>> would include segregated ones).
>
> They do indicate that. That's what the blue dots mean.
>
> A better suggestion would be "show a different rendering for those cycleways
> where walking is not permitted". Though I honestly don't know whether there
> are enough of these, worldwide, to merit further cluttering up the map


Can we get some feedback from different countries whether walking is
permitted on cycleways? At least in Germany and Italy it is
(officially) forbidden.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] What does this symbol mean?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/8/6 Nathan Edgars II :
>> There is 7 lift gates, one after the other, on a motorway?
>
> It's a ramp to a reversible lane that's only open at certain times of the
> day. Look at the Bing aerial.


Yes, I can understand that there is a lift gate, but 7 in a row, which
you have to pass one after the other? I guess they are parallel, not
in line, or am I wrong?

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] What does this symbol mean?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/8/5 Nathan Edgars II :
> On 8/5/2011 5:31 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/54459361
>> What is that symbol that appears along the way?
>
> Never mind - I hadn't noticed that the nodes were tagged barrier=lift_gate.


There is 7 lift gates, one after the other, on a motorway?

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/8/2 Ian :
> On Tuesday, August 2, 2011 10:14:13 AM UTC-5, Gregor Horvath wrote:
>> Now if this node (point on a map) is replaced with another one by a
>> fellow mapper (for whatever reason), I think it would be a progress if
>> ID 1381574156 points to the new node instead of vanishing.
> Who or what decides that the ID 1381574156 should move rather than
> disappear?
> If it is to be a computer algorithm, who writes it? What happens when a node
> tagged as a pub turns into a way tagged as the same pub? Maybe it turns into
> a relation (because it is a multipolygon)?


With current semantics it is not possible to decide where to go with
an ID if an object gets changed. Many objects have tags like
building=yes, amenity=xy on them, and you can't even tell from the
data whether "name" is referring to the building or to the amenity.
How would you know whether the ID was used for the building or for the
service inside the building?

cheers,
Martin

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[OSM-talk] API misuse at Flickr, WAS: Id stability

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/8/1 Toby Murray :
> Flickr does this too, by the way:
> http://code.flickr.com/blog/2009/09/28/thats-maybe-a-bit-too-dorky-even-for-us/


according to this blog entry from 2009 Flickr is using the main API to
get tag information of OSM objects. Isn't this a misuse of the API
which should be reserved to mapping activity? Not sure about the
technical details of osm integration in Flickr and whether they are
really using the API and not the XAPI, but if they use the API they
should be encouraged to switch to one of the XAPIs or mirror the osm
data themselves.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Commenting and thumbs up/down feature for changesets

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/28 Frederik Ramm :
>
> I hope that I'll soon be able to set up a prototype of this feature and then
> we can all look at it together and we'll have a much better idea how it
> feels in practice.


depending on how the mapper structures his work it might also often be
desirable to have more granularity then just a whole changeset (i.e.
flag single actions or groups of actions contained in a changeset). In
your given example this would not be needed, but I happen to see also
very big changesets with hundreds of single actions in them.

The simplest solution might be to appeal to the mappers to structure
their uploads in a way that they contain only actions for one
"task"/one kind of edit and they all adhere ;-)

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of official names Re: shortened names

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/28 Kay Drangmeister :
> Yup, my favourite is Europe's most important country:
> http://osm.org/go/0B2j-
> covering the country name for UK, Germany, and other nearby countries :-D


If you're referring to Belgium: they actually do have 3 official
names. Not sure how to deal "correctly" with this naming only one
without insulting one or the other.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of official names Re: shortened names

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/28 Joseph Reeves :
>>4. although the tag name is used by Mapnik and others, please don't fulfill
>> the tag "name" for the renderers
>
> Likewise, my favourite annoyance tagging a place name with the English and
> the Arabic [1]:


This is IMHO a hint where we could improve the rendering to overcome
this situation, as it is clearly tagging for the renderers. I guess
the editor who made this edit in Version 31 (before it was consistent)
added the comment: "tripoli. International together with arabic name,
like all other places ." so I'd assume good will.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of official names Re: shortened names

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/28 Nathan Edgars II :
> Then the process for finding the name would need to include traveling the
> entire length of the road and looking at each sign. Because of sign
> inconsistency, one would end up with parallel streets, some abbreviated and
> some not.


Because of sign inconsistency may you want to map the single signs?
There is key:traffic_sign ;-)

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of official names Re: shortened names

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/28 Colin Smale :
> It sounds like there are three types of street name:
> 1) Official, as decided by the Powers That Be
> 2) Signed, as displayed on the signs
> 3) Colloquial, as people habitually use
>
> So which one do we put in "name=*", and what do we do with the others?


1) should generally be "name" if there is not good reason not to do
this (i.e. nobody uses this official name, then you put it in
"official_name" and use "name" for the one that's used)
2) some people use "visible_name" for this, of course you'd omit it if
identical to "name"
3) there is various tags in use for this, e.g. "loc_name", "alt_name",
"reg_name", "nat_name"

see also http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name

cheers,
Martin

PS: I suggest to continue on [tagging]

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Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/28 Richard Mann :
> "name" is what is on (the majority of) the signs


name is the name. Or what would be the name if the sign-majority was
defined and there were 2 differing signs? nil? Or if there was 1 sign
and that was spellt wrong? Signs are indices, but they contain errors
and bugs like everything else.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

...but the point is that here the name seems to be "St Albans" so why
should we be the only ones to expand it?

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/27 Kay Drangmeister :
> Am 27.07.2011, 12:01 Uhr, schrieb Richard Fairhurst :
>>
>> every native English speaker would
>> pronunce St in that context as 'saint'. That, to me, is a pretty
>> conclusive
>> argument that we should tag "St".
>
> Alas, and in German "St" abbreviates "Sankt" (which also means by chance
> Saint).
> So you can conclusively say for each place if it's the english or the german
> Abbreviation? Not to mention other countries with multiple languages.


In Italian "S." can mean "San", "Sant'" and "Santa", "Ss." can mean
"Santi" and "Santissimo"/"Santissima"/"Santissimi"/"Santissime"
because you have to care for gender, grammatical number and if the
name starts with a vowel. I guess dealing automatically with this is
not completely impossible but it certainly requires some effort (not
to mention if you wanted to apply different rules for all languages
that occur in the planet).

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] lat and lon in the db

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/27 Kenneth Gonsalves :
> on querying the db, I get the lat and lon of a particular place as:
> lat 145921624 lon 864071554
>
> but the map shows the correct figures:
> lat 12.9954832  lon 77.6208684


I guess these coordinates are the same, the first are the coordinates
in your projection the latter in latlong.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/26 Richard Fairhurst :
> Mind you, British English orthography is also that Martin has an "a" in it,
> not a "∡". ;)

Hello Rich∡rd,

orthography doesn't apply to names, but Martin as my name is, has
indeed no ∡ in it. I just put it there on a whim. Interestingly humans
don't have a problem substituting this in their mind with an "a".

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/26 Robin Paulson :
> does anyone here know what st albans in uk is actually called then?
>
> i've been told it's st albans, not saint albans as i 'corrected' it to


I think it is actually written "St Albans" as stated above.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] mapnik bug? construction bridge site (over the water)

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/18 Thomas Davie :
> At least in my mental model of how rendering is expected to work, layer= 
> should have priority over *all* other rendering order stuff.


then you can file a ticket for the mapnik OSM-style. The makers of
that style have decided to ignore the layer tags in some cases, e.g. a
building over a road will always be rendered below the road,
regardless which layer road or building are on.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Orphaned Relations

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/18 Richard Fairhurst :
> If you really care about empty relations, you are welcome to submit a patch
> to P2 that automatically deletes relations when they're set to 0 members
> (and undeletes them if you undo that action), of course!


you could have empty relations (no own members) with tags on them that
are themselves member of another relation and therefore
usefull/intended without their own members.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Commenting and thumbs up/down feature for changesets

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/13 Dave F. :
> On 11/07/2011 22:42, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>>   I just stumbled across a changeset where someone helpfully added a
>> "toilet:access=customers" to 1350 pubs in the Greeater London area (thereby
>> adding no information but freshening the time stamp of the objects, giving
>> the cursory visitor the impression that the pub might actually have been
>> resurveyed which it very likely hasn't).

> This is a perfectly acceptable addition which does add information - that
> it's not a public toilet. You can't just walk in of the street to spend a
> penny.


-1
Unless this person has surveyed the 1350 pubs he doesn't add any
information, because you can already see from the data that the toilet
is inside a pub. There might be pubs which consent general use (not
very probable, but in 1350 pubs this might be possible) in which case
the edit not only was pointless but actually added wrong information.


> Why is it a problem getting time-stamped? If it doesn't, how would anybody
> know it's been edited & able to verify it?


the timestamp suggests that someone verified the existence of the pub,
but in the case of this edit you can absolutely not tell whether that
pub existed at the time the edit was performed, as all pubs were
tagged (e.g. a pub which was closed 2 years ago still seems to be open
as of 2011).


Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Orphaned Relations

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/17 Sarah Hoffmann :
> Question remains what to do with the existing orphaned relations.
> Is there any legimate use for them or would it be save to simply
> delete them all?


I would ask the last editors to verify them, and let them delete those
in the case they are not needed. I suspect that some of these
relations actually were emptied without the mapper wanting it, so
there might be cases where relation should be reverted to the version
before (but this would have to be checked, maybe in the meantime
someone will have created a new relation).

I'd think that it is save to delete unused empty relations which are
in version 1 or which never had any members and have not been used.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Topo Pirineos - or lots of new material to trace/import in the Pyrenees

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/9 Felix Hartmann :
>  As we're
> still under CCBYSA 2.0, people can use it to trace rivers and trails to OSM
> :-)


while the data is still distributed under cc-by-ca you cannot enter
data any more in cc-by-sa only. All current contributions most also be
compatible with odbl and the ct.


> or might we have another case of OSM data piracy
> (I'ld support the later, as there is no real data sources given for the rest
> of the data, and from my opinion clearly a pirated Garmin MPC has been used
> to create the map).


do you have more details why you think that this is pirated data
besides "missing" source-tags?

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/7 Jochen Topf :
> On Thu, Jul 07, 2011 at 03:35:07PM +1200, Robin Paulson wrote:
>> is there any consensus on shortening of parts of names?...
>> i was under the impression consensus was to type the full word, then
>> renderers would shorten where necessary? apparently some mappers
>> disagree though
>
> Yes, thats the consensus and has been for a long time. Some mappers always
> disagree, just ignore them. :-)


+1

I'd only insert abbreviations in the db if you copy from a street sign
and you are in doubt about or don't know the expanded version.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] adding multiple relations (bus routes) to one road

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/6 Pieren :
> The alternative is to put the intersection nodes and end-nodes of the route.
> This has the big advantage that ways are not split any more for some
> abstract features like "routes" (and you don't have to add a 2nd relation to
> rebuild the road). But it has the disadvantage that software developers have
> to work a bit before they can render the result.


if you stored only nodes there would be ambiguity problems in cases
where several ways connect the same nodes. It would also increase
complexity for editors/mappers tremendously when detaching nodes with
relations on them from ways.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Sister Projects

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/5 Matthias Meisser :
> Am Dienstag, den 05.07.2011, 19:48 +0200 schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer:
>> Maybe we can also open a discussion about this "related projects"
>> list. IMHO googlemapmaker - although having a similar approach - is
>> not "related to OSM". I'd delete all of the projects there that have a
>> "no" in the license column, i.e. all copyrighted. IMHO OSM is not
>> related to projects that collect proprietary data.
> Sure, maybe we find a better topic than 'related' or sister projects.
> Maybe 'other VGI' or something more strict?


Why on earth should we give references to proprietary data projects
like mapmaker in our wiki?

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Sister Projects

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/5 Frederik Ramm :
> Maybe we should simply have a link "Related Projects" pointing to
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Related_Project in this location?


Maybe we can also open a discussion about this "related projects"
list. IMHO googlemapmaker - although having a similar approach - is
not "related to OSM". I'd delete all of the projects there that have a
"no" in the license column, i.e. all copyrighted. IMHO OSM is not
related to projects that collect proprietary data.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Emitter

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

While I think that this is generally not a bad idea, I'd still expect
that the data has not the average positional quality OSM usually has.
Martijn van Exel gave a talk at Wherecamp-EU in Berlin about the same
topic (twitter to osm) and in the following discussion the consensus
was towards a intermediate layer where those tweets would be stored,
so that you can do reasonable verification at home with the comfort of
a map and probably some nice aerial fotos in the background to
validate the "raw" data.

I also stumbled upon the first tagging examples on your page:
Italian pizzeria
amenity=cafe name=Pizza Ololo cuisine=italian #osmit

Is this really consensus to tag a pizzeria as cafe? There is also
restaurant and fast_food in the amenity value-set.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Featured mapping, parks

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/7/4 Josh Doe :
> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 10:21 AM, colliar  wrote:
>>
>> Am 04.07.2011 02:09, schrieb Josh Doe:
>> >
>> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=38.76211&lon=-77.29749&zoom=15&layers=M
>> > <http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=38.76211&lon=-77.29749&zoom=15&layers=M>
>> > (Burke Lake Park)
>>
>> Why is the lake from the park excluded ? Is it not part of the park ?
>
> I think I did so because the county park agency (FCPA) doesn't operate the
> lake, rather the state game/fisheries agency, VDGIF. I suppose I should
> include the lake in the park, and the operator tag on the lake will be
> considered to override the park operator tag.


IMHO you should keep the multipolygon for the operator, but include
the lake in the park (if it "is" part of the park). Anyway: we will
probably never get complex operating structures clean and unambigously
into OSM, at least not with the current schemes.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Multiple versions of same node in changeset

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/6/25 Frederik Ramm :
> If you're editing in a place where you have reason to believe that you're
> not the only one, uploading often isn't too bad a habit - reduces the
> likelihood of conflicts!


Yes, but is there a point of doing this within the same changeset?

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] the map on osm.org - airstrips showing only at zoom 10

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/6/25 John Smith :
> Wasn't there some discussion about that before, how important airports
> such as LAX should show sooner than regional airports which should
> show up sooner than grass airstrips.


Yes, the discussions and proposals are endless for this. Suggestions
are usually that you should deduct the importance by analyzing the map
dat (e.g. surface of the runway, length of the runway) and combine OSM
data with external sources (numbers of starts/landings a year, number
of passengers a year, freight volumes, ...).

Personally I think that to get a rough estimate it is sufficient to
tag the most important ones with

aeroway=airport

this renders nicely and is suitable IMHO, even if it is not the
ultimate level of detail.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/6/23 Tobias Knerr :
> "If you distribute [...] any Derivative Works or Collective Works, You
> must keep intact all copyright notices for the Work and give the
> Original Author credit reasonable to the medium or means [...].

> -- Tobias Knerr


I understand from this that the individual contributor could ask to be
mentioned, but OSM is not "the Original Author", it is no author at
all, osm/osmf is the publisher.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say "yes" to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/6/17 Steve Bennett :
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 3:00 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer
> Source is disputed? By whom? I've never heard any dispute about it? I
> put a source tag on every single object I create, and try and update
> it when I modify it.



It is not completely useless but I observed that in general the more
versions an object has, the less reliable the source tags on it are.
Maybe you are an exception and do update every object you touch and
you verify always the source on it, but most mappers actually don't.


> IMHO changeset comments really don't work well
> (in Potlatch at least),


it depends how often you upload. For small edits where you just enter
that place you have recently been to, I find them perfect. Bigger
edits will usally get more generic comments, but when tracing from
aerial imagery I include the provider and if known the year of the
images.


> and it's far too easy to include the wrong
> objects in a changeset.


either way you can miss some parts of your edit.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say "yes" to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/6/16 Toby Murray :
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:37 AM, Graham Stewart (GrahamS)
>  wrote:
>>
>> and that the source tag is certainly recommended, but not enforced.
>
> There is no such thing as an "enforced tag" in OSM. If you choose not
> to use a tag then that is your choice. Not using a source tag when
> basing your mapping on an external source is a poor choice. And not
> just for copyright reasons. It also lets other mappers know how much
> to trust the data. When I come across data that seems like it might be
> a little off to me I treat things that have a source=survey tag much
> differently than things that have a source= tag.


You can also put this information in the change-set-comment. IMHO this
is where this belongs to. AFAIK the source-tag is disputed and it is
recommended to use the changeset comments.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Question about contributor terms and derived contributions

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/6/16 Andreas Perstinger :
> If there is just *one* single object near your way which isn't based on a
> ccbysa node/way, then you could always argue IMHO that you've measured the
> location of your way from this object (JOSM has a measurement tool with you
> can use for distances and angles).


AFAIR this is not reliable or precise. AFAIR it is not suited to enter
precise data you measured on the ground.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Issues with OSM import to postgis

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/6/13 Zolt Egete :
> C:\Users\z.egete\tmp\osm2pgsql>osm2pgsql -U postgres -S default.style -d gisa 
> -H 10.1.1.63 D:\planet-100127.osm
osm2pgsql SVN version 0.69-21289M
> I have tried with (-s, -u as well separately and have used -C 3000 at one
> time but no success)
> Any hint about it ?


There is no way you can use it without the -s (slim) option if you
have just 3GB of RAM. I'd really consider using a smaller extract then
the planet (it would take weeks to import it even if you manage to do
it). My suggestion: download a pbf extract from geofabrik and cut a BB
with pbftoosm

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Issues with OSM import to postgis

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

the official site should work:
http://planet.openstreetmap.org/

the latest is this:
http://planet.openstreetmap.org/planet-latest.osm.bz2
and the md5 is here:
http://planet.openstreetmap.org/planet-latest.osm.bz2.md5

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Issues with OSM import to postgis

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/6/13 Zolt Egete :
> Hello
>
> Thank you for the quick reply
> I will give it a try without the -u option not to use the UTF-8 sanitize and
> will let you know the results as soon as I have some
>
> As far as other map files are concerned I have downloaded a few ones but
> this is the only one which I could unpack (have used pbzunzip2, bzip2,
> bunzip2) but all the time I have got corrupt archive messages.
> Also the MD5 sum of the downloaded file where not consistent with the md5
> hash sum from the servers (I do not yet know the reason why)
>
> I have downloaded the other day the latest planet file which is almost 17GB
> large and have started to unpack this morning with the following command
>  pbunzip2 -d -k planet-latest.osm.bz2
> pbzip2: *ERROR during decompression: -4
>
> and the error have shown after 200GB is unpacked, but I can still see the
> process going on, despite for the error and now it is on 227 GB
> Do you think this can impose a problem with the unpacked OSM file ?


yes, the md5 check should pass OK, otherwise I suspect there is a
problem with your download. I suggest you try first a smaller extract
to test your setup, e.g. one of geofabrik. You also don't have to
unpack the file, you can pipe it with bzcat to osm2pgsql. See the wiki
for details. Another option is using pbf files (binary), see the wiki.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Issues with OSM import to postgis

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/6/13 Zolt Egete :
> Are there any alternatives to osm2pgsql maybe something that ?


There are alternatives to osm2pgsql (e.g. imposm, osmosis) but they do
not do the same thing so it depends what you want to do with your
database (which scheme you want to have) which you should choose.

Actually osm2pgsql should work nonetheless, have you tried another
version of the planet or extract? Did you run md5 sum on your data
prior to importing it to verify if your file is OK?

./osm2pgsql -U postgres -s -u -S default.style -d gisa -C 2500
/home/zsolt/tmp/planet-100127.osm

Maybe the reason is the "-u" option? Looking at the help this should
not be needed since 2007 and maybe even can cause some harm:
"-u|--utf8-sanitize Repair bad UTF8 input data (present in planet
dumps prior to August 2007). Adds about 10% overhead."


cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Bing Maps are amazing.

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/6/13 Stephan Knauss :
> needs Silverlight


that is really amazing...

I don't have silverlight so I only get their dumb standard map...

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering error on Mapnik

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/6/9 Saphy Mo :
> I think you are right.
> What should I do? Can I avoid all shapefile and use just only information as
> OSM in the database?
> Or should I wait until better shapefile will be accessible?


First thing would be to check the coastline, if it still has this
error or was corrected in the meantime.

I am not sure if the shapefiles with coastlines can be avoided (in
Mapnik, Osmarender and other renderers don't need shapefiles). There
is an option in osm2pgsql to import coastlines (which per default are
omitted), but you will likely end up with broken coastline geometry
(because somewhere in the world it always will be broken) and maybe
performance problems.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering error on Mapnik

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/6/9 Hendrik Oesterlin :
> There is a rendering error in India
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=13.01&lon=75.31&zoom=8&layers=M
>
> screenshot at http://oesterlin.ile.nc/div/mapnik_error.png
>
> I did not figure out the reason for this.


I guess this is a problem in the current coastline shapefiles.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Airspace & Co.

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/6/7 Lester Caine :
> Perfect example of something that should be possible to implement as a
> completely separate database, but which can overlay any other OSM data?


+1

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Scholarship program to State of the Map 2011

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/6/3 Richard Welty :
> for countries in the visa waiver program (most (all?) of the EU,
> Japan, South Korea, Australia, others, see link below) visas
> are not required, but an ESTA (Electronic System for Travel
> Authorization) is.


+1, you need an electronic passport (RFID) with biometric data stored
on the chip. When you enter the country, authorities will also take a
photo of you and take your fingerprints, all of which they consider
"an effective weapon in the war on terror" (Tom Ridge).

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Better Bing imagery in Potlatch?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/5/30 colliar :
>> Yes, that did the trick for mee too. It was on 17.
>
> Maybe a ticket on josm trac asking for a high default level would be useful.


+1, in some urban areas the zoom goes up to level 21.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Bridge relation on way going under?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/5/29 Borbus :
> I think a much more useful application than those suggested already is
> to identify all of the bridges that cross over a way.  It's easy to find
> all of the ways that go under a way, but what use is that?  It's quite
> important for waterways in general to be able to find every bridge that
> will be crossing over your path, and it's also necessary if routing for
> a tall vehicle on roads.


yes, but you only have to modify the above query posted by Lennard
slightly to get the ways that cross over the way instead of those
under the way. There is no need for a relation, and it would not even
help to have these relations (because only a subset will be mapped
with them, so you still would perform a database check if this
information was important to you).

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tracks and there place in society

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/5/21 Greg Troxel :

> That said, highway= implies that the object is a public or private way
> (US terms, but usable by the public), except for highway=service and
> highway=track.


actually a highway=* is any kind of way, and access by the public
might only be implied if no other access is tagged explicitly.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Unlicensed use of the logo in iPhone app?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/5/19 Russ Nelson :
> Thomas Davie writes:
>  > On 18 May 2011, at 07:04, Russ Nelson wrote:
>  > > can Ken assign copyright in the logo to OSMF.
>  >
>  > He can, but I see no reason why he should (other than if he
>  > particularly wants to).  The point of the licensing of this project
>  > is for people to get credit for what they did, I don't see why Ken
>  > should have to say "actually, it was the whole of the OSMF".
>
> So, no more reason than SteveC should have assigned the trademark, I
> guess?


You really can't compare this. To control the trademark is the power
to decide who has the right to call himself "Openstreetmap", while
beeing the copyright holder of a logo which is licensed cc-by-sa
simply gives you the right to be credited when your work is used
(because you already gave anyone the right to use your work without
any royalties).

But I agree to the point that it would be desirable not having to
credit Ken every time the logo is used...

cheers,
Martin

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[OSM-talk] Banner for SOTM-EU on the startpage?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

I wonder if it would not be nice to have a banner for SOTM-EU on the
start page. As the page is already crowded, this could maybe appear
only if the user is logged in (because then the infotext below the
logo is not displayed). An example banner can be seen e.g. on
http://www.openstreetmap.de/ (in "Events").

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Unlicensed use of the logo in iPhone app?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/5/17 Nic Roets :
> I think we should also see our trademarks as an indicator of "free
> content". So any product that overlays non free content onto the map
> should be disallowed from using our trademarks. That should exclude
> most ad supported products (as ads are typically non free), but we
> should also consider explicitly disallowing ads.


While this sounds nice and logical at first sight (I mean most people
hate ads, and personally I try to get the least possible of them
intruding into my life), it leads to very complicated situations in
the judging of what is an ad in the context of maps. In every
rendering you will have to decide what to exclude and what to include,
or at which zoomlevel you will display a certain feature. Say you are
rendering a city map and displaying "service points of xy company" in
zoom 17. This is definitely something that some companies would pay
for if your map is in widespread use (I'd personally consider it an
ad). But it will lead to an infinite number of edge cases requiring
judgement which feature at which zoom level would have to be
considered advertising.

So -1 for the benefit of freedom ;-)

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Unlicensed use of the logo in iPhone app?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/5/17 Russ Nelson :
> If you don't restrict use, you don't have a trademark


-1, you have a trademark when it is registered. This has nothing to do
with whether you enforce restricted use or not. You can at any time
restrict the use.


> But all is not lost. It's still licensed CC-By-SA, so anybody who uses
> it has to acknowledge OpenStreetMap.


no, he has to acknowledge the creator, which is Ken Vermette, and
maybe (depending on the license of the original logo) the creator of
the former logo. But all is not lost: of course it will be an implicit
acknowledgement of OSM to use the logo --- at least if it comes to a
point where it serves for its purpose: beeing a well known trademark
(wikipedia: a tm is a distinctive sign or indicator used by an
business organization or other legal entity to identify that the
products or services to consumers with which the trademark appears
originate from a unique source, and to distinguish its products or
services from those of other entities.)

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Unlicensed use of the logo in iPhone app?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/5/16 Grant Slater :
> On 16 May 2011 14:54, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>> Is there an informal policy? If I am displaying an OSM based map, am I
>> generally entitled/allowed to use the logo ("OSM inside") in my
>> application / on my website?
>>
>
> Sounds ok to me, you are promoting OpenStreetMap. What would not be
> cool is claiming (or misleading) that your app/website/etc _IS_
> OpenStreetMap or endorsed by OpenStreetMap.
>
> Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and I do no represent OSMF.


Yes, also to me it "feels" OK, but I think the best would be to get an
official statement from OSMF when and how the logo can be used,
because I think that it is good to encourage the use of the logo, but
commercial users would not risk to use the logo if there is no formal
permit to do so.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Unlicensed use of the logo in iPhone app?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/5/16 Grant Slater :
> On 16 May 2011 13:14, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>> btw.: is there a text similar to the tile usage policy (logo usage
>> policy)?
> No, there is no formal policy document. There was discussion of
> adopting http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy or similar when
> the trademark was first registered.


Is there an informal policy? If I am displaying an OSM based map, am I
generally entitled/allowed to use the logo ("OSM inside") in my
application / on my website?


>> What is the license of the logo?
> Yes, the new logo is CC-BY-SA licensed. The logo was created by Ken Vermette
> OSMF blogged a short interview with him:
> http://blog.osmfoundation.org/2011/05/13/new-openstreetmap-logo/
> Ken originally introduced himself here:
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/newbies/2010-August/005757.html


Thank you Grant, I updated the wiki page on the logo with these Infos:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Logos

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Unlicensed use of the logo in iPhone app?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/5/15 Grant Slater :
> On 14 May 2011 22:46, Yann Coupin  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Just spotted that new app which is using osm's logo as the app's icon. I'm 
>> pretty sure this is unlicensed use and it should be taken down but I don't 
>> know who should start the dialog with the dev and/or apple.
>>
>> App link : http://itunes.apple.com/fr/app/hvor-er-jeg/id434211669?mt=8
>>
>
> Nice. The app uses an OpenStreetMap app logo but the screenshots show
> it using Google tiles.
> Deceptive and confusing use of the logo and mark.
>
> I have sent the developer(s) an informal email (for now) asking them
> to stop inappropriately using the logo.


btw.: is there a text similar to the tile usage policy (logo usage
policy)? Is the current logo still protected by trademarks (like the
old one is which AFAIK was registered by SteveC who then transferred
the rights to OSMF)? What is the license of the logo? Wiki states
cc-by-sa2.0 e.g. here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Openstreetmap_logo_354_354.png
but there is as far as I can see no reference to the creator? Or is
this Gustavf ?

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Breaking up is hard to do (was New Logo in the Wiki)

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/5/5 Peter Wendorff :
> Am 05.05.2011 06:59, schrieb Mike Dupont:
>> I think it would make sense to have many layers of data, each with its
>> own source rules (on layer for each major import, a tiger layer for
>> example)
>> and also each layer would have its own license. Also you can split
>> these layers by country if needed.
> I think, the idea is a good one, but there are a lot of problems, if you try
> to create that in practice.
> Layering is a good idea, I think, but the tagging system we have even makes
> layering nearly impossible for the data we have.


I don't think that layering is a good idea, as long as the different
layers aren't directly connected (i.e. reference the same nodes, ...),
and then you could just as well let it be (or create the dynamically
in the editor). Layering would detach the different classes of objects
we have in the db from eachother, so the end result for map editors
would be that they had to either display all layers or they will
create inconsistencies between the different layers.

It would also not solve the license problems, because if you used a
odbl-layer for guidance in the background while you drew something on
a PD layer you would create a derived work/data and with any viral
license this would change the license required for the PD layer as
well.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Skip geographical (redundant) address tags

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/5/4 Jaak Laineste :
> Regarding user interface: I would add "quick street selector" feature
> to JOSM (and other editors)


a workaround to improve usability would be to enable autocompletion of
addr:street with the values of the name-keys of the highways.

cheers,
Martin

https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/6306

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Re: [OSM-talk] Skip geographical (redundant) address tags

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/5/3 Jaak Laineste :
> 2011/5/3 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer :

> Creating relation could be same, or even more extra work, this is
> correct (but fixable in editor level).


actually it will (with explicit numbers without interpolation) not be
possible at the editor level to make it less work for the relation,
you will always have the relation as additional work (and you will
have to enter the numbers manually, while I agree that there could be
a minor improvement for pasting:
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/6300 )


> Point of avoiding redundancy
> (normalization) is to make maintenance easier in long run. How much
> manual work do you need to do if any of the underlying object is
> modified: street names change now and then,
> sometimes whole
> administrative system is reformed and even Europe has countries added
> or merged every decade.


performing a "search" in JOSM you can also quite easily change lots of
objects the same time. I am not totally opposing relations, they are
there and you can use them if you want, it is just that most mappers
don't use them (me included) for housenumbers, because it makes
mapping more complicated without (IMHO) a real benefit, and it is
definitely more complex (bad for less experienced mappers).

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Skip geographical (redundant) address tags

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/5/3 Ed Avis :
> It's one thing to say that to speed up and simplify processing, there should 
> be
> duplicated data.  Quite another to say that every contributor, on every object
> that has an address, should manually add several redundant tags.
>
> Let's tag the information that is needed, but not restate the same thing in
> several different ways.  Then if some different presentation of that info is
> needed, this can be done in a separate post-processing step by a computer, not
> by people.


You seem to imply that relations are faster / less manual work
requiring when entering addresses manually with one of the OSM
editors, but from my own experience they require at least the same
(manual) work, if not more.

cheers,
Martin

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