Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 12:11:21AM +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: If I put my mind to it, I could easily muster enough OSMers I know personally to turn over the highway=gate vote next month, just for the fun of it. That should demonstrate to you how little weight the process carries. So I'd rather not be too fast with implementing the results of a vote. There. We agree! Neither I think we need to be very fast with it. But that doesn't mean we should start thinking about it, and thinking about how to handle such things. This could also include improving the voting process. It's just a bit silly to encourage keeping of highway=gate when we've just voted on barrier=gate. Who's we? *I* have not voted. There are more than 2.000 different people who have used highway=gate. How many people have voted to replace it with something else, and do you really think this is enough? Well. This is actually a good example of a quite obvious change. Imho. A gate is not a highway, it's abarrier! But I realize there are more complex and disputed changes. And btw - I didn't vote either, but I would have, had the voting process been more available :) (I know of it, I just don't filter it out from rest and participate...) -- - Vegard Engen, member of the first RFC1149 implementation team. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, We have no mechanism to divide good from bad ideas. If you start putting your ideas about what you think is good and should be used on Map Features, then I will start putting mine on there as well, and everyone else. That's why we don't want to go down this road. (And before anyone asks, a vote in which 0.01% of mappers participate does not elevate one idea about what is good above hundreds of others.) I agree with you here, but voting seems to be the current practice. It may seem so, but in fact voting is just a pastime of a tiny minority of OSMers; the vast majority don't care for either the process or the results. You allege that, but what evidence do you have to back it up? I for one don't vote very much, but do care about due process and the results. I will follow the tagging advice that has been voted for, because I know that several people have thought about the issues and more of them thought one option was better than the other. Robert (Jamie) Munro -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkj/MWUACgkQz+aYVHdncI0vTACgpMHHZ//LnFTT9Fcu4sONJ7js ukgAn1dECxM5SJvx8vgInlc4LazqtOhc =Nop4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, vegard wrote: Is it really so important for the map to look the same in Chile and in China? Well. You have to remember that rendering is not all, Ok, then: Is it really so important for routing software to work identically in Chile and in China? 100% abosolutely. Certainly. Undoubtedly. How can you even ask such an obvious question? You can't really be suggesting writing different routing software for every part of the world can you? You may as well have entirely separate OSMs. In fact that would make it much easier, because you'd know where to use engine A and where to use engine B. It's just a bit silly to encourage keeping of highway=gate when we've just voted on barrier=gate. Who's we? *I* have not voted. You could have. The fact that you chose not to implies that you don't mind either way. That's normally how democratic systems work. Robert (Jamie) Munro -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkj/MVMACgkQz+aYVHdncI1FkgCdHabNY7VsDRSSYE6VgpiHVz8v LosAoISBThcto3QS6+QVNk3h+YTVhoDf =ySac -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
On Wednesday 22 October 2008, Robert (Jamie) Munro wrote: Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, vegard wrote: Is it really so important for the map to look the same in Chile and in China? Of course not, green trunk roads and blue motorways don't make a lot of sense in 99% of the world. It makes sense in the UK, where this project happens to have started, so now that it became a true worldwide project, why can't we give other countries the same privilege of having own colour schemes for their road network that make sense in that country? But it should have a consistent look of course, meaning that the differences for each country are very small, and mostly involves some icons or highway types, and things like highway number colours. Well. You have to remember that rendering is not all, Ok, then: Is it really so important for routing software to work identically in Chile and in China? 100% abosolutely. Certainly. Undoubtedly. How can you even ask such an obvious question? You can't really be suggesting writing different routing software for every part of the world can you? It should work the same way *but* each country will need its own ruleset to translate tags in a specific country into access rules for certain vehicle types. Thinking you could mold the whole world into one set of tags is naive and it's been shown plenty of times that it just won't work. So, you don't need to rewrite the routing software for each country, you just need to make a router that uses a table with country specific information. Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
Robert (Jamie) Munro [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I for one don't vote very much, but do care about due process and the results. I will follow the tagging advice that has been voted for, because I know that several people have thought about the issues and more of them thought one option was better than the other. I agree with you here. I care for the results, but the process is too bothersome for me to participate. I don't like having discussions on a number of web pages. I'd much rather have the discussion here on the list (or on a dedicated list). Reasonable mail clients and the list archive are good at keeping list threads together. This makes it very easy to follow a number of discussions without having to jump across many web pages. The thread in the archive can be linked to from the proposal and later the tag page for everybody to find. If a consensus has been reached Map Features can be updated. I don't think there is a need for a formal voting process (especially if it is so easy to rig). Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
Ben Laenen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Of course not, green trunk roads and blue motorways don't make a lot of sense in 99% of the world. It makes sense in the UK, where this project happens to have started, so now that it became a true worldwide project, why can't we give other countries the same privilege of having own colour schemes for their road network that make sense in that country? Whether something makes sense depends more on the viewer of the map than on map data. A UK viewer probably expects motorways to be blue reagardless whether that motorway is in the UK or elsewhere. I would not want a motorway to change color on the French/German border just because differen coloring styles are common in France and Germany. How does a UK printed map of France look like? But it should have a consistent look of course, meaning that the differences for each country are very small, and mostly involves some icons or highway types, and things like highway number colours. Other things need to be localized to the area that is shown on the map. It does not make much sense to put US Interstate numbers on blue Autobahn shields for example. Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
How does a UK printed map of France look like? It probably depends on the publisher. I have to hand a 2001 Europe Road Atlas, printed in the UK by Collins. This doesn't distinguish between primary and trunk roads in the UK (all are red) and Motorways are green with two narrow yellow lines down them. This scheme is used throughout the atlas (so in France the A28 shows as per a UK motorway; the A16 has a solid yellow line down the middle to indicate it is a toll motorway rather than just a motorway). In Germany I can't quite work out the numbering system, but roads labelled such as 61 near Mannheim are shown as motorway colours. In a similar way to any publisher can choose their own colour scheme for a road atlas, anyone who renders the OSM data can choose their own colour scheme. The colours aren't defined in the database as far as I know. It makes sense to use a consistent scheme across the whole map (to my mind), although different people may prefer different consistent schemes. Ed ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 5:09 PM, Matthias Julius [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd much rather have the discussion here on the list (or on a dedicated list). If a consensus has been reached Map Features can be updated. I don't think there is a need for a formal voting process (especially if it is so easy to rig). It's funny you say that because I just tried yesterday what you suggest. I sent an email to this ML about the tag alt_name which is used by the application Namefinder and has been promoted in only one email some months ago by the author of this application. The tag is not widely used, not only because it is not commonly required but also because it is documented nowhere. That's why I think we should - at least - write some words about this tag in the Map Features page. I could also create a wiki proposal and start the long and heavy voting process... So far, I received only two feedbacks, both positive. Do you consider that the consensus is reached ? Where is this method better than 10 votes in the wiki ? regards Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
Pieren [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 5:09 PM, Matthias Julius [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd much rather have the discussion here on the list (or on a dedicated list). If a consensus has been reached Map Features can be updated. I don't think there is a need for a formal voting process (especially if it is so easy to rig). It's funny you say that because I just tried yesterday what you suggest. I sent an email to this ML about the tag alt_name which is used by the application Namefinder and has been promoted in only one email some months ago by the author of this application. The tag is not widely used, not only because it is not commonly required but also because it is documented nowhere. That's why I think we should - at least - write some words about this tag in the Map Features page. I could also create a wiki proposal and start the long and heavy voting process... So far, I received only two feedbacks, both positive. Do you consider that the consensus is reached ? Where is this method better than 10 votes in the wiki ? It mey be not better, but I think it is easier. The two people that have replied to your message might not have bothered to vote on the wiki. And I do think this is sufficient. If nobody bothers to write Don't do this, because ... there can't be too much wrong with the proposal. Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
I am also thinking about renaming the page altogether. There is simply no room for the word deprecated here. I'm just unsure about the new name. Old features? Older features? I dosn't like the world deprecated too. But I guess there should be a mechanism, to show the users which tags are replaced by newer ones. and no new data has been added with that tag for a good while (a year maybe) it is probably safe to convert existing occurances to the new scheme and stop supporting the old one, IMHO. It is probably never safe but at some time one has to move on, we cannot support old stuff forever. There ist no authority in OSM that has the power to define when some time has come to drop support older stuff forever.. I know a company, they have an authority with the power to change everything they would like. But in their newest Features List (they call it ISO/EDC 26300), there are features deprecated since tens of years.. Regards, Raphael ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
hi this is Sergio Sevillano aka User:Sergionaranja sorry for the inconveniences. I think I have behave correctly though... I wanted to have linear barriers in use, so I found the barrier proposal which was the best option for it, and i promoted it along with other users to be approved as it was kind of stalled. the barrier=gate was included before i started modifying it. (i still think it fits better under barrier) i followed the processes mentioned at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features#Proposal_Status_Process before voting i have called a final rfc in which i explicitly mentioned that gate was involved as i thought this could be tricky... as user circeus (we have worked a lot in this, thanks) pointed out there were many uses for the deprecating values (highway=gate 17,000 + uses in Europe according to Tagwatch). we did a lot of documentation also on wiki links for non english users to know those weird types of gates... blah, blah... also followed the http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features#Post-vote_clean-up wich clearly mentions the Add entry to Map_Features page. also found Deprecated_features page. so here i thought a combination of both should be done. i modified highway features so the change has more clear to all, although you are right it don´t belongs there anymore i did not include linear barriers there. *now comes the interpretation* as Frederic says map features should be actual used features. but i favour more an interpretation that map features is recommendation of how to tag, for uses there is the tagwatch. i have never intended to force others to map or tag in a particular way. i thougt that changing highway=gate to barrier=gate was such straightforward and uncomplicated that the sudden chage was best. taking in account only osmrender and mapnik i thought that those render changes are easy enough to be done quite fast. i didnt take in account any other render neither the editors: JOSM, potlach... (two whip lashes for me) *things I have changed* I have created key:barrier http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Key:barrier to reflect those approved by http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Approved_features/barriers i have modified map features highway template which has been reverted by Frederic to original state also http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Deprecated_features which Frederic has already mention more correct uses of deprecation and has leaved the new barrier= recommendation other pages modified: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Tag:highway%3Dgate moved to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Tag:barrier%3Dgate http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Tag:highway%3Dstile moved to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Tag:barrier%3Dstile http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Tag:highway%3Dcattle_grid moved to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Tag:barrier%3Dcattle_grid http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Tag:highway%3Dtoll_booth moved to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Tag:barrier%3Dtoll_booth so now when you search for gate or highway=gate redirects to barrier=gate. this might be changed to original state and create independent barrier=gate so both pages are up at same time? finally, I´am glad all this thoughts have come out, as some changes in the procedures should be done and uploaded. such as proposal_process, approval_process, post_vote_clean_up... deprecation concept cheers, Sergio ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 6:27 PM, Matthias Julius [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave Stubbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The real question to ask here is what the clean-up is meant to achieve? Especially when the new tag does not really interfere with the old tag, what does forcibly removing the old tag actually get you? Perhaps a cleaner data model, or a smaller planet dump, but only in the extreme case where you actually succeed. And are these worth the instant breakage of tools you have nothing to do with? Unless these tools are intended to work on only a limited subset of the data they will break as soon as someone enters some data under the new tagging scheme. I don't think it is any better if a tool misses half the gates in an area because they are tagged differently. They don't break as such. They just don't get new data. In an actively maintained tool the author will begin to see this as a problem as more and more new data tagged with the new method is added and add the tag to their processing in due course (when they have time/in their normal development/testing/QA schedule). If a tool suddenly does not show gates anymore its users can notify the author. It can go undetected for a long time if a tool just ignores new gates. Exactly, instant breakage versus no new data -- and experience tells me it doesn't take long for people to ask why their new stuff isn't showing up on X. You either have an unstable, brittle system or one which is a bit out of date, and I know which I prefer. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
Matthias Julius wrote: IMHO, if someone has the authority to put something on Map Features someone also has the authority to change or remove something or mark it as deprecated. Let me disagree. You are implying that just because I can add stuff to map features, I can also decide to mark all highway=* as deprecated? I think we should supercede highway=* with path=* because that makes so much more sense. ;-) Well, whole Map Features is about how people should tag things (not how they must tag things). The first paragraph says that you can tag how you want but this is the core recommended feature set. If something is not recommended anymore it needs to be marked as such and eventually removed. Let me disagree here too. It's not about people *should* tag things. It is a collection of tags that many people use to tag specific things often together with a list of applications that can make use of the tags listed. It's not normative, it's a help for me if I want to tag a gate and let's me quickly discover how others have tagged gates and it (hopefully ) also let's me discover which renderers make use of that tag. spaetz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
Hi Sergio, also followed the http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/ Proposed_features#Post-vote_clean-up wich clearly mentions the Add entry to Map_Features page. Which is ok (I think you mixed up things by adding the barrier=* under the highway=* section but I fixed that). It doesn't say on that page that you should delete things from the Map Features page. I agree that the mere existence of a deprecated features page creates the impression that things should be moved there which is not the case. I will change the Wiki page to make it extra clear. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
Frederik Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Map Features is a documentation of what is used, not of what someone thinks should be used. The first paragraph on Map Features says it is a core recommended feature set and corresponding tags, and to me a recommendation is something that should be followed (at least in the view of its author). Nothing on Map Features says that it is a list of commonly used tags. Instead, it is my understanding that there are a couple of people who decide through voting what to put on Map Features. There is a rather objective basis for what is used - the planet file. There is no objective basis for what should be used - everybody has their own ideas. These things form slowly; someone documents his idea somewhere, others talk about it on the lists or forums, with time it gets adopted by many (or not), and there may come a time when you look at Map Features and say hm, this highway=gate is barely used any more, let's ditch it, and that's fine. But this is something you do ex post, not ex ante, or put another way, Map Features is not a normative page, it is empirical. I am not advocating for anyone to just go and delete features. I am just saying that if there is a process to add features the same process can be used to remove them. I also think it is confusing if two equivalent tags are recommended for the same thing. If by whatever process it is determined that a new wah of tagging gates is recommended the old tag should point to the new one with the indication that the recommendation has changed. We have no mechanism to divide good from bad ideas. If you start putting your ideas about what you think is good and should be used on Map Features, then I will start putting mine on there as well, and everyone else. That's why we don't want to go down this road. (And before anyone asks, a vote in which 0.01% of mappers participate does not elevate one idea about what is good above hundreds of others.) I agree with you here, but voting seems to be the current practice. Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 02:34:39PM -0400, Matthias Julius wrote: I also think it is confusing if two equivalent tags are recommended for the same thing. If by whatever process it is determined that a new wah of tagging gates is recommended the old tag should point to the new one with the indication that the recommendation has changed. I agree. this democracy and meritocracy thing is good for something, but for the map to be really useful as a *world* map and not separated islands, people need to understand that agreeing on tags are good. That said, I have nothing against people using different tags for things not decided yet, but harmonizing and deciding on a common scheme *should* be a goal for everyone. We have no mechanism to divide good from bad ideas. If you start putting your ideas about what you think is good and should be used on Map Features, then I will start putting mine on there as well, and everyone else. That's why we don't want to go down this road. (And before anyone asks, a vote in which 0.01% of mappers participate does not elevate one idea about what is good above hundreds of others.) I agree with you here, but voting seems to be the current practice. I always at least discuss on talk@ or on IRC if I'm a little in doubt. I'll willingly admit that my ideas are not always best either, and if someone has already thought of something better, we're all better off in the long run. This do as you like, we're not deciding anything here is really too much touted :) Let's call them recommendations, and let us call the deprecated tags deprecated, when there's actually been voting going on! Noone should be offended by that. -- - Vegard Engen, member of the first RFC1149 implementation team. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
Hi, vegard wrote: I agree. this democracy and meritocracy thing is good for something, but for the map to be really useful as a *world* map and not separated islands, Is it really so important for the map to look the same in Chile and in China? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
Hi, We have no mechanism to divide good from bad ideas. If you start putting your ideas about what you think is good and should be used on Map Features, then I will start putting mine on there as well, and everyone else. That's why we don't want to go down this road. (And before anyone asks, a vote in which 0.01% of mappers participate does not elevate one idea about what is good above hundreds of others.) I agree with you here, but voting seems to be the current practice. It may seem so, but in fact voting is just a pastime of a tiny minority of OSMers; the vast majority don't care for either the process or the results. Voting on new tags is as much current practice as, say, tagging lampposts or park benches - some do it with fervour, most don't care. Which is ok - anyone has the right to tag lampposts or to vote. As long as they let the others do their thing. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 10:11:14PM +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, vegard wrote: I agree. this democracy and meritocracy thing is good for something, but for the map to be really useful as a *world* map and not separated islands, Is it really so important for the map to look the same in Chile and in China? Well. You have to remember that rendering is not all, and if you *actually* want to render all of the world, then you'll want to support the tags used. It's just a bit silly to encourage keeping of highway=gate when we've just voted on barrier=gate. Ok, we should and can not forbid it. But we can call it deprecated, and encourage the switch. IMNSO, -- - Vegard Engen, member of the first RFC1149 implementation team. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
Frederik Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi, We have no mechanism to divide good from bad ideas. If you start putting your ideas about what you think is good and should be used on Map Features, then I will start putting mine on there as well, and everyone else. That's why we don't want to go down this road. (And before anyone asks, a vote in which 0.01% of mappers participate does not elevate one idea about what is good above hundreds of others.) I agree with you here, but voting seems to be the current practice. It may seem so, but in fact voting is just a pastime of a tiny minority of OSMers; the vast majority don't care for either the process or the results. Voting on new tags is as much current practice as, say, tagging lampposts or park benches - some do it with fervour, most don't care. Which is ok - anyone has the right to tag lampposts or to vote. As long as they let the others do their thing. Sure. I am just assuming that tags that have been added to Map Features since the practice of voting started have been voted on. Or, are there features being added that have been deemed recommended by other means? Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
Hi, vegard wrote: Is it really so important for the map to look the same in Chile and in China? Well. You have to remember that rendering is not all, Ok, then: Is it really so important for routing software to work identically in Chile and in China? Look at it this way: How many Chinese have taken part in the vote that deprecated highway=gate? None. It is a vote taken exclusively by Europeans. A few years hence, the majority of OSMers might well be Chinese, with, perhaps, a wholly different approach on how to tag things and different ideas on what feels right. They might well hold a vote and decide to use highway=gate instead of barrier=gate... as long as 10 people take part in a vote you can go back and forth and back again every month. If I put my mind to it, I could easily muster enough OSMers I know personally to turn over the highway=gate vote next month, just for the fun of it. That should demonstrate to you how little weight the process carries. So I'd rather not be too fast with implementing the results of a vote. It's just a bit silly to encourage keeping of highway=gate when we've just voted on barrier=gate. Who's we? *I* have not voted. There are more than 2.000 different people who have used highway=gate. How many people have voted to replace it with something else, and do you really think this is enough? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 10:54:52AM +0200, Sebastian Spaeth wrote: Let me disagree. You are implying that just because I can add stuff to map features, I can also decide to mark all highway=* as deprecated? I think we should supercede highway=* with path=* because that makes so much more sense. ;-) Yes, why not? It’s a wiki after all. Others are free to revert your changes. However, to prevent edit wars, some method of consensus would be useful. One already in the OSM wiki is proposing and voting. Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
Frederik Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi, vegard wrote: Is it really so important for the map to look the same in Chile and in China? Well. You have to remember that rendering is not all, Ok, then: Is it really so important for routing software to work identically in Chile and in China? At least I would expect a routing software to work with the data from any place of the world. As I would expect the Mapnik layer to look consistant. Luckily most people (I guess) want their data to show up on the map and therefore they conform to whatever the map styles support. Unfortunately this also results in mapping for the renderer. Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 9:49 PM, Frederik Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, sergio sevillano wrote: the key:barrier has been approved and thus the highway=gate now belongs to barrier *barrier=gate * shall we run a script to do this? No, because this would break existing rendering. First make sure the new tag is supported by the majority of renderers - otherwise it will look to people as if the gates had been removed because they're suddenly not on the map any more. And remember that renderers aren't just the main ones that show map tiles, there's lots of other ones for mobile devices including e.g. mkgmap, which may or may not need to be modified. Also any editor presets (all the editors, not just JOSM), and of course the multitude of routing programs. Please remember that not all users of OSM data are internal to the project any more, so external users of the data may not be constantly working on keeping their tag sets up to date. So allow a long overlap period. It should also be that the vast majority of new tags are using the new scheme, since it doesn't matter how many people vote on proposals, there's literally orders of magnitude more people actually inputting data and it's they who are more important when deciding which tags to deprecate. Cheers, Andy Who dislikes the concept of deprecating tags almost as much as people automatically changing thousands of tags two days after a self-selected cabal think that the voting system is the be all and end all... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
Hi, sergio sevillano wrote: the key:barrier has been approved and thus the highway=gate now belongs to barrier *barrier=gate * shall we run a script to do this? No, because this would break existing rendering. First make sure the new tag is supported by the majority of renderers - otherwise it will look to people as if the gates had been removed because they're suddenly not on the map any more. And remember that renderers aren't just the main ones that show map tiles, there's lots of other ones for mobile devices including e.g. mkgmap, which may or may not need to be modified. Also any editor presets (all the editors, not just JOSM), and of course the multitude of routing programs. When waiting till the majority of the software (using osm data) changed to the new tags, will there ever be a chance to run a convert script? Not just for the barrier tag, for any tag. IMOH there will never be a chance. There are still about 280 class=highway in germany.. (says the tagwatch.dstoecker.eu). Who dislikes the concept of deprecating tags almost as much as people automatically changing thousands of tags two days after a self-selected cabal think that the voting system is the be all and end all... Whats about a clean-up-day? At a given day, every year/quarter/month, all deprecating tags will be converted. With a list about which tags this will would be for the next clean-up-day. So there is a chance for doing this by hand in your region. Regards, raphael ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Raphael Studer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, sergio sevillano wrote: the key:barrier has been approved and thus the highway=gate now belongs to barrier *barrier=gate * shall we run a script to do this? No, because this would break existing rendering. First make sure the new tag is supported by the majority of renderers - otherwise it will look to people as if the gates had been removed because they're suddenly not on the map any more. And remember that renderers aren't just the main ones that show map tiles, there's lots of other ones for mobile devices including e.g. mkgmap, which may or may not need to be modified. Also any editor presets (all the editors, not just JOSM), and of course the multitude of routing programs. When waiting till the majority of the software (using osm data) changed to the new tags, will there ever be a chance to run a convert script? Not just for the barrier tag, for any tag. IMOH there will never be a chance. There are still about 280 class=highway in germany.. (says the tagwatch.dstoecker.eu). Who dislikes the concept of deprecating tags almost as much as people automatically changing thousands of tags two days after a self-selected cabal think that the voting system is the be all and end all... Whats about a clean-up-day? At a given day, every year/quarter/month, all deprecating tags will be converted. With a list about which tags this will would be for the next clean-up-day. So there is a chance for doing this by hand in your region. I suspect the vast majority of these class=highway ways will fall into one of these two categories: 1) The way also has a highway tag 2) There will be a way either directly on top, or running in a vaguely overlapping way, which has highway tags. (quite possibly with a FIXME=previously unwayed segment.. or whatever the tag is). So any automatic script is going to be either unnecessary, or harmful (you'll end up with two roads instead of just one). In obvious deprecation like this I think you're better off writing a tool to find them, and flag them for people to go have a look at. The real question to ask here is what the clean-up is meant to achieve? Especially when the new tag does not really interfere with the old tag, what does forcibly removing the old tag actually get you? Perhaps a cleaner data model, or a smaller planet dump, but only in the extreme case where you actually succeed. And are these worth the instant breakage of tools you have nothing to do with? Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
Raphael suggested: Whats about a clean-up-day? At a given day, every year/quarter/month, all deprecating tags will be converted. With a list about which tags this will would be for the next clean-up-day. So there is a chance for doing this by hand in your region. I'm still not convinced about deprecating tags in general, but my thoughts (for what they're worth) are: Update Map Features. At some point this will result in an updated set of maplint tests. At some point the [EMAIL PROTECTED] clients will update to use these new tests. At some point tiles (with gates) will probably be rerendered, highlighting items not in map features if the maplint information layer is shown. Someone may investigate what isn't in map features in an area and update the tagging to the new version. If so, then cleaning up will be an ongoing task. Before then of course the main tools used for tagging will probably need any shortcuts for adding gates (I added a couple yesterday using JOSM, for example) to be updated. I didn't look to see what tags it used, or whether Map Features had changed since I last added any. I'm a bit worried that when it comes to scripts there is the prospect of unintentional changes as well as the intended ones, although that seems less likely in this instance as it seems a straight forward switch. Ed ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
Dave Stubbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The real question to ask here is what the clean-up is meant to achieve? Especially when the new tag does not really interfere with the old tag, what does forcibly removing the old tag actually get you? Perhaps a cleaner data model, or a smaller planet dump, but only in the extreme case where you actually succeed. And are these worth the instant breakage of tools you have nothing to do with? Unless these tools are intended to work on only a limited subset of the data they will break as soon as someone enters some data under the new tagging scheme. I don't think it is any better if a tool misses half the gates in an area because they are tagged differently. If a tool suddenly does not show gates anymore its users can notify the author. It can go undetected for a long time if a tool just ignores new gates. So, I would argue for a grace period after which tools are expected to support the new tag, and then a depreciation period after which tools may drop support for the old tag. (The quote marks are because OSM is in no position to prescribe to tool authors what to support and Map Features is a recommendation only anyway.) Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
On 20/10/2008 18:27, Matthias Julius wrote: Dave Stubbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The real question to ask here is what the clean-up is meant to achieve? Especially when the new tag does not really interfere with the old tag, what does forcibly removing the old tag actually get you? Perhaps a cleaner data model, or a smaller planet dump, but only in the extreme case where you actually succeed. And are these worth the instant breakage of tools you have nothing to do with? Unless these tools are intended to work on only a limited subset of the data they will break as soon as someone enters some data under the new tagging scheme. I don't think it is any better if a tool misses half the gates in an area because they are tagged differently. And ditto vice-versa: even if a script is run to update, someone unaware of the change will come along and add the old tag. If I were a tool author (which I am, of course, but namefinder is not interested in gates; however the same principle applies to any deprecated tag), for a widely used tag I would feel I needed leave the old one in indefinitely for backward compatibility in the absence of any enforceable standards. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If I were a tool author (which I am, of course, but namefinder is not interested in gates; however the same principle applies to any deprecated tag), for a widely used tag I would feel I needed leave the old one in indefinitely for backward compatibility in the absence of any enforceable standards. If you are the author of a popular tool you are the enforcer. That is if you say My tool will recognize gates if they are tagged in this way there is a good chance that people will do exactly that. In the end it is the tool authors who need to decide whether they want to stop supporting some legacy tagging scheme. Anyway, after a tag has been removed from Map Features or clearly marked as depreciated and no new data has been added with that tag for a good while (a year maybe) it is probably safe to convert existing occurances to the new scheme and stop supporting the old one, IMHO. Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
Hi, Matthias Julius wrote: Anyway, after a tag has been removed from Map Features Of course nobody would remove a tag from Map Features as long as it is still widely used! It seems that User:Sergionaranja was unclear about this and has accidentally removed highway=gate and others from Map Features (and indeed documented some barrier=* tags on the Map Features:highway template where they don't belong!). I have reverted that edit, and added a proper section for the barrier tag. or clearly marked as depreciated There is no authority in OSM that has the power to mark anything as deprecated. I have modified the wording on the page deprecated features to clearly say that these are tags for which a replacement is recommended, not deprecated tags that should no longer be used. Whoever put that wording in there, please note that you have *no* authority to tell people how they should tag things! I am also thinking about renaming the page altogether. There is simply no room for the word deprecated here. I'm just unsure about the new name. Old features? Older features? and no new data has been added with that tag for a good while (a year maybe) it is probably safe to convert existing occurances to the new scheme and stop supporting the old one, IMHO. It is probably never safe but at some time one has to move on, we cannot support old stuff forever. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Frederik Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Matthias Julius wrote: Anyway, after a tag has been removed from Map Features Of course nobody would remove a tag from Map Features as long as it is still widely used! It seems that User:Sergionaranja was unclear about this and has accidentally removed highway=gate and others from Map Features (and indeed documented some barrier=* tags on the Map Features:highway template where they don't belong!). I have reverted that edit, and added a proper section for the barrier tag. or clearly marked as depreciated There is no authority in OSM that has the power to mark anything as deprecated. I have modified the wording on the page deprecated features to clearly say that these are tags for which a replacement is recommended, not deprecated tags that should no longer be used. Whoever put that wording in there, please note that you have *no* authority to tell people how they should tag things! I am also thinking about renaming the page altogether. There is simply no room for the word deprecated here. I'm just unsure about the new name. Old features? Older features? Unfashionable Features? and no new data has been added with that tag for a good while (a year maybe) it is probably safe to convert existing occurances to the new scheme and stop supporting the old one, IMHO. It is probably never safe but at some time one has to move on, we cannot support old stuff forever. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
Frederik Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is no authority in OSM that has the power to mark anything as deprecated. IMHO, if someone has the authority to put something on Map Features someone also has the authority to change or remove something or mark it as deprecated. I have modified the wording on the page deprecated features to clearly say that these are tags for which a replacement is recommended, not deprecated tags that should no longer be used. Whoever put that wording in there, please note that you have *no* authority to tell people how they should tag things! Well, whole Map Features is about how people should tag things (not how they must tag things). The first paragraph says that you can tag how you want but this is the core recommended feature set. If something is not recommended anymore it needs to be marked as such and eventually removed. I am also thinking about renaming the page altogether. There is simply no room for the word deprecated here. I'm just unsure about the new name. Old features? Older features? Whether you call those tags deprecated, obsolete or old is secondary. As long it is clear that Map Features is only a recommendation it should also be clear that a deprecated feature on there is also only a recommendation as well. Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
Hi, Matthias Julius wrote: IMHO, if someone has the authority to put something on Map Features someone also has the authority to change or remove something or mark it as deprecated. Map Features is a documentation of what is used, not of what someone thinks should be used. There is a rather objective basis for what is used - the planet file. There is no objective basis for what should be used - everybody has their own ideas. These things form slowly; someone documents his idea somewhere, others talk about it on the lists or forums, with time it gets adopted by many (or not), and there may come a time when you look at Map Features and say hm, this highway=gate is barely used any more, let's ditch it, and that's fine. But this is something you do ex post, not ex ante, or put another way, Map Features is not a normative page, it is empirical. We have no mechanism to divide good from bad ideas. If you start putting your ideas about what you think is good and should be used on Map Features, then I will start putting mine on there as well, and everyone else. That's why we don't want to go down this road. (And before anyone asks, a vote in which 0.01% of mappers participate does not elevate one idea about what is good above hundreds of others.) Well, whole Map Features is about how people should tag things No, that's your interpretation. Map features is primarily about what *is* used. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
hi the key:barrier has been approved and thus the highway=gate now belongs to barrier *barrier=gate * shall we run a script to do this? who? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Approved_features/barriers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
Hi, sergio sevillano wrote: the key:barrier has been approved and thus the highway=gate now belongs to barrier *barrier=gate * shall we run a script to do this? No, because this would break existing rendering. First make sure the new tag is supported by the majority of renderers - otherwise it will look to people as if the gates had been removed because they're suddenly not on the map any more. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=gate, run a script?
On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:49:32PM +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: sergio sevillano wrote: the key:barrier has been approved and thus the highway=gate now belongs to barrier *barrier=gate * shall we run a script to do this? No, because this would break existing rendering. First make sure the new tag is supported by the majority of renderers - otherwise it will look to people as if the gates had been removed because they're suddenly not on the map any more. barrier=gate (and some other barrier=*) is supported by Osmarender (and has been for some time before the voting began on the barrier=* proposal), but not currently by Mapnik. Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
