Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Andreas Labres]

On 16.01.13 20:08, Alex Barth wrote:

> My initial writeup could have been clearer: This RFC _does_ seek to replace 
> the currently recommended line "(c) OpenStreetMap contributors" linking to 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright with a visual mark linking to a future 
> http://openstreetmap.org/contributors.

Attribution (which is what you talk about) consists of naming the author and the
license. Naming the author (expressis verbis: naming "OpenStreetMap
contributors") directly on the website is a good feature that shouldn't be
omitted. It stays there on screenshots and leaves no doubt that "it comes from 
OSM".

BTW, I don't like your hammer & drop symbol (even don't see an explanation for 
it).

The link serves as the second thing: naming the license. This is twofold:

- stating ODbL for the data
- stating CC BY-SA for the map tiles (especially for the default ones)

Of course, the link landing page (could read /copyright, /license --
/contributors for me seems not so good) could be made "more pleasant", could be
an overlay window etc.

Naming (for Austria) Wien, Vbg. and Tirol (plus the wording!) on /copyright was
requested by the CC BY license holders (which came from the fact that there
already were such attributions).

/al

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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Rob Nickerson]

Why not keep the "© Openstreetmap contributors" bit and add a "Report an
issue / Add to the map" type button or text? This would then link to a very
simple page as proposed (but themed to better match OSMs brand) which also
explains how to add a bug/notice using [1] and how to get more involved
with editing using Potlatch2 / iD.

Rob

[1]
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Top_Ten_Tasks#OpenStreetBugs.2Fnotes_integration
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Chris Hill]

On 16/01/13 22:33, Christian Quest wrote:
The current legal requirement is only about a text because no official 
icon was existing.


If one is chosen, what prevents us to upgrade the requirements to 
leave the choice between the "© OpenStreetMap contributors" or the new 
chosen icon ?



To me the copyright symbol, ©, is understood worldwide to have a 
specific meaning, replacing it with a new made-up symbol loses the 
meaning completely. I do like the idea of a small, clickable icon to 
identify OSM, but I don't see how that replaces the well understood © 
symbol and attribution statement. I would be happy to reduce 
'Openstreetmap' to 'OSM' for brevity.


MapQuest have a small icon that they request people embed into any site 
using their Open map tiles (based on OSM data). I believe they follow 
its use to help them build stats or some such. It looks fine, but I add 
"© Openstreetmap contributors" too, as per the licence we spent so long 
struggling to implement.


--
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user: chillly


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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi Christian,

On 16.01.2013 23:33, Christian Quest wrote:

The current legal requirement is only about a text because no official
icon was existing.


The current legal requirement is not about a text specifically; as Paul 
has written, the current legal requirement is:


"notice ... reasonably calculated to make any
Person ... aware that the Content was obtained from the Database ... and
that it is available under [ODbL]".

It is not for us to upgrade these requirements (it would require Open 
Data Commons to issue a version 1.1 of their license with changed wording).


What we could do is agree that a certain logo/icon/wording is 
"reasonably calculated to make any person aware..." and so on. OSMF does 
have a little bit of leeway there; if they were to say "this counts" 
then it would be hard for anyone to construct a case against it. However 
it is important to keep in mind that contributors have only authorized 
OSMF to redistribute their data under ODbL (via the contributor 
agreement), not under "ODbL with any fancy interpretations that OSMF 
would like to add". If OSMF were to stray too far from the path, 
contributors could claim that OSMF violated the contributor agreement 
and OSMF's right to distribute the data was therefore void. I wouldn't 
want to go there!


I think the "reasonably calculated" is is a relatively high hurdle. 
Especially when an icon is newly introduced, it can hardly be said to be 
"reasonably calculated to make any person aware..."! Personally, I think 
this is practically impossible without including at least the word 
OpenStreetMap spelled out in letters (if not ODbL 1.0 as well). Even 
our, relatively well-known, current logo would be a difficult sell as 
"reasonably calculated" because it isn't *so* well known.


This does, however, border on the "discuss in legal-talk where you're 
likely to find more expert answers".


Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Alex Barth]

On Jan 16, 2013, at 5:33 PM, Christian Quest  wrote:

> The current legal requirement is only about a text because no official icon 
> was existing.
> 
> If one is chosen, what prevents us to upgrade the requirements to leave the 
> choice between the "© OpenStreetMap contributors" or the new chosen icon ?

That could work well.

> 
> -- 
> Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France - http://openstreetmap.fr/u/cquest
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http://twitter.com/lxbarth
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Christian Quest]

The current legal requirement is only about a text because no official icon
was existing.

If one is chosen, what prevents us to upgrade the requirements to leave the
choice between the "© OpenStreetMap contributors" or the new chosen icon ?

-- 
Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France -
http://openstreetmap.fr/u/cquest
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Alex Barth]

On Jan 16, 2013, at 5:23 PM, Jeff Meyer  wrote:

> Why is it clear that the hammer couldn't be a replacement for the OSM 
> copyright?
> 
> Has the Legal WG stated that a symbol that linked to our copyright & license 
> statements would not meet the requirements of the ODBL?

No idea about the legal viability of the hammer. I'm saying this more from 
gauging the overall excitement around the hammer. Saman and I are planning on 
sharing more the thinking behind the specific hammer mark and ideally come up 
with something better. Also: many have noted that there should be at least a 
textual reference to OpenStreetMap in the contributor mark, that's at least a 
given adjustment in my mind.

> 
> Right now, I think we're all speculating.
> 
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 2:17 PM, Alex Barth  wrote:
> 
> The edit concept is very interesting. This was something crossing my mind as 
> well when writing up the response to design feedback today. If we had very 
> direct instructions for editing in OSM, we could push users pretty directly 
> to that. The main problem for using the edit paradigm as a guiding light for 
> the mark proposed here is that many maps made of OSM data aren't actually 
> live updated or not updated at all. This led us to throw away an early 
> version of the mark which used an edit pen. I hope to share more of our 
> previous mark designs soon in a follow up post, I think this is worthwhile 
> fleshing out more.
> 
> My second point is this: The central idea of this proposal is to promote OSM 
> even if OSM is really just providing the data. I feel we won't get much pick 
> up if we promote an additional element for maps that are produced works, ever 
> more often on mobile, ever more often composed from mutliple sources.
> 
> It's clear now that the hammer won't be an acceptable replacement to "© 
> OpenStreetMap contributors" but I'm hoping we can come up with something that 
> is all of the below:
> 
> - satisfactory from a legal standpoint
> - attractive to click through
> - sticky as a symbol
> 
> On Jan 16, 2013, at 2:58 PM, Kai Krueger  wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > may I throw a related, but slightly different concept, out there for
> > discussion?
> >
> > I think some of the confusion between "contributor mark" and "attribution
> > mark" is that they may be entirely different things. From the design I have
> > seen so far it seems indeed more like a "contributor mark" than an
> > "attribution mark", but you are planning on using it as an "attribution
> > mark"
> >
> > I'll give an example to try and clarify what I mean by "contributor mark" as
> > opposed to "attribution mark":
> >
> > Wikipedia have OpenStreetMap integration into articles. I.e. if you open a
> > geocoded wikipedia article you can click in the top right corner on either
> > the globe symbol in e.g. the English Wikipedia or the textual link "Map" in
> > e.g. the German Wikipedia which opens an inline map into the article showing
> > the place based on an OSM map.
> >
> > There were considerations on adding an "edit" link to the map, as it would
> > a) be fitting to Wikipedia and b) help OSM gain new contributors as it can
> > capitalize on the huge user base of Wikipedia.
> >
> > However, one concern with adding an edit link was to explain to the
> > Wikipedia user why after clicking on the edit link they suddenly landed on
> > this "odd" page called OpenStreetMap which wants a new user name and
> > password from you. How does this relate to Wikipedia where they actually
> > wanted to be? What is the concept behind OpenStreetMap? How and what can I
> > edit?
> >
> > So the idea was to redirect first time map editors (not logged into OSM and
> > don't have an OSM cookie) via an explanatory contributor page before sending
> > them to the editor page.
> >
> > To Wikipedia users the concept of users editing the content is already
> > familiar, but on many other third party sites that use OSM maps, the
> > relation between the page they came from and OSM is likely even less clear
> > to users.
> >
> > Therefor having people redirect through a explanatory page would be even
> > more helpful. I think the contributor page as presented here could be a
> > really nice basis for such a page.
> >
> > So instead of replacing attribution, the contributor mark is an additional
> > component acting as a well recognizable "edit this map" button with the
> > underlying explanatory page for new contributors.
> >
> > OSM could then encourage everyone who uses OSM maps to add this contributor
> > mark / button to really try and capitalize the growing share of OSM users
> > into new mappers by providing a more user friendly integration. To Website
> > providers this would also be a benefit, as with including a few lines of
> > simple html / javascript, they can help improve the maps they are using and
> > identify them selves as real supporters to the OSM movement.
> >
> > In that case imho the size and design of the current proposed "contributo

Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Jeff Meyer]

Why is it clear that the hammer couldn't be a replacement for the OSM
copyright?

Has the Legal WG stated that a symbol that linked to our copyright &
license statements would not meet the requirements of the ODBL?

Right now, I think we're all speculating.

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 2:17 PM, Alex Barth  wrote:

>
> The edit concept is very interesting. This was something crossing my mind
> as well when writing up the response to design feedback today. If we had
> very direct instructions for editing in OSM, we could push users pretty
> directly to that. The main problem for using the edit paradigm as a guiding
> light for the mark proposed here is that many maps made of OSM data aren't
> actually live updated or not updated at all. This led us to throw away an
> early version of the mark which used an edit pen. I hope to share more of
> our previous mark designs soon in a follow up post, I think this is
> worthwhile fleshing out more.
>
> My second point is this: The central idea of this proposal is to promote
> OSM even if OSM is really just providing the data. I feel we won't get much
> pick up if we promote an additional element for maps that are produced
> works, ever more often on mobile, ever more often composed from mutliple
> sources.
>
> It's clear now that the hammer won't be an acceptable replacement to "©
> OpenStreetMap contributors" but I'm hoping we can come up with something
> that is all of the below:
>
> - satisfactory from a legal standpoint
> - attractive to click through
> - sticky as a symbol
>
> On Jan 16, 2013, at 2:58 PM, Kai Krueger  wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > may I throw a related, but slightly different concept, out there for
> > discussion?
> >
> > I think some of the confusion between "contributor mark" and "attribution
> > mark" is that they may be entirely different things. From the design I
> have
> > seen so far it seems indeed more like a "contributor mark" than an
> > "attribution mark", but you are planning on using it as an "attribution
> > mark"
> >
> > I'll give an example to try and clarify what I mean by "contributor
> mark" as
> > opposed to "attribution mark":
> >
> > Wikipedia have OpenStreetMap integration into articles. I.e. if you open
> a
> > geocoded wikipedia article you can click in the top right corner on
> either
> > the globe symbol in e.g. the English Wikipedia or the textual link "Map"
> in
> > e.g. the German Wikipedia which opens an inline map into the article
> showing
> > the place based on an OSM map.
> >
> > There were considerations on adding an "edit" link to the map, as it
> would
> > a) be fitting to Wikipedia and b) help OSM gain new contributors as it
> can
> > capitalize on the huge user base of Wikipedia.
> >
> > However, one concern with adding an edit link was to explain to the
> > Wikipedia user why after clicking on the edit link they suddenly landed
> on
> > this "odd" page called OpenStreetMap which wants a new user name and
> > password from you. How does this relate to Wikipedia where they actually
> > wanted to be? What is the concept behind OpenStreetMap? How and what can
> I
> > edit?
> >
> > So the idea was to redirect first time map editors (not logged into OSM
> and
> > don't have an OSM cookie) via an explanatory contributor page before
> sending
> > them to the editor page.
> >
> > To Wikipedia users the concept of users editing the content is already
> > familiar, but on many other third party sites that use OSM maps, the
> > relation between the page they came from and OSM is likely even less
> clear
> > to users.
> >
> > Therefor having people redirect through a explanatory page would be even
> > more helpful. I think the contributor page as presented here could be a
> > really nice basis for such a page.
> >
> > So instead of replacing attribution, the contributor mark is an
> additional
> > component acting as a well recognizable "edit this map" button with the
> > underlying explanatory page for new contributors.
> >
> > OSM could then encourage everyone who uses OSM maps to add this
> contributor
> > mark / button to really try and capitalize the growing share of OSM users
> > into new mappers by providing a more user friendly integration. To
> Website
> > providers this would also be a benefit, as with including a few lines of
> > simple html / javascript, they can help improve the maps they are using
> and
> > identify them selves as real supporters to the OSM movement.
> >
> > In that case imho the size and design of the current proposed
> "contributor
> > mark" is much more appropriate than as an "attribution mark"
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Kai
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/RFC-OSM-contributor-mark-tp5743962p5744950.html
> > Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
> Alex Barth

Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Jeff Meyer]

Apologies for being rhetorical and passive in my prior post. "Maybe" is
incorrect.

The statement "(c) OpenStreetMap contributors" _is definitely_ a required
credit.
See: http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright
"You are free to copy, distribute, transmit and adapt our data, as long as
you credit OpenStreetMap and its contributors."
The page then goes on to describe how to do this credit. This web page
defines our implementation of ODBL para 4.3.(a).

Up to now, I'm not talking only about the existing copyright markings and
not about the teardrop / hammer mark

But, Alex has stated that he *does* want to replace that statement with a
mark (sounds cool to me), so he's suggesting we amend the copyright and
license terms, which might be doable under para 4.3 of the ODBL referenced
by Paul (http://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/1.0/).

In addition, Alex is suggesting that the mark link not the existing
copyright statement, but to a different contributors page, which seems (to
this caveman lawyer) less likely to adhere to para 4.3.

The function of credit/attribution/notification that ODBL-derived data was
a source for a Produced Work is a requirement of the ODBL.

So, we have a requirement for at least 1 mark that references at least
source copyright, etc.
It seems like the options are:
a) Add a better sense & essence of contributors & modifiability to the
existing copyright notice.
b) Add another mark

(a) seems more feasible, as I don't think OSM-related Produced Works want
to add multiple marks to a single map (or would we), but who knows?

We definitely need Legal WG input here.



On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Paweł Paprota  wrote:

> > Isn't the purpose of "OSM and Contributors" to "credit" or "attribute"
> > the
> > source of the map tile data?
> >
>
> Maybe, maybe not. More importantly - the fact that there's a discussion
> what this "mark" tries to communicate means that it fails to do it
> properly in the first place.
>
> At first glance I thought it was just sort of a banner to promote OSM
> but if it is to replace the legal attribution then it's not really doing
> that job. I support Kai's idea about separating the two functions. I
> like the Wikipedia example. It would be really cool to have a widely
> known "edit" button/symbol/"mark" sitting in the corner of embedded maps
> to show that the map is a living thing that can be corrected, enriched
> etc.
>
> I also agree with Tom - naming stuff *is* very important and is
> definitely not a side issue. Right now "contributors mark" suggests at
> least two different things - list of contributors or some kind of award
> for being a contributor and neither of them is true... This stuff should
> really be dead simple and intuitive, if you have to think about it as a
> user, explain, discuss then forget it, it won't work in the wild. Of
> course it's always harder to communicate more with less but that's the
> main challenge I  see here...
>
> Paweł
>
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>



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206-676-2347
 osm: Historical
OSM
 / my OSM user page 
 t: @GWHAThistory 
 f: GWHAThistory 
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Alex Barth]

The edit concept is very interesting. This was something crossing my mind as 
well when writing up the response to design feedback today. If we had very 
direct instructions for editing in OSM, we could push users pretty directly to 
that. The main problem for using the edit paradigm as a guiding light for the 
mark proposed here is that many maps made of OSM data aren't actually live 
updated or not updated at all. This led us to throw away an early version of 
the mark which used an edit pen. I hope to share more of our previous mark 
designs soon in a follow up post, I think this is worthwhile fleshing out more.

My second point is this: The central idea of this proposal is to promote OSM 
even if OSM is really just providing the data. I feel we won't get much pick up 
if we promote an additional element for maps that are produced works, ever more 
often on mobile, ever more often composed from mutliple sources.

It's clear now that the hammer won't be an acceptable replacement to "© 
OpenStreetMap contributors" but I'm hoping we can come up with something that 
is all of the below:

- satisfactory from a legal standpoint
- attractive to click through
- sticky as a symbol

On Jan 16, 2013, at 2:58 PM, Kai Krueger  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> may I throw a related, but slightly different concept, out there for
> discussion?
> 
> I think some of the confusion between "contributor mark" and "attribution
> mark" is that they may be entirely different things. From the design I have
> seen so far it seems indeed more like a "contributor mark" than an
> "attribution mark", but you are planning on using it as an "attribution
> mark"
> 
> I'll give an example to try and clarify what I mean by "contributor mark" as
> opposed to "attribution mark":
> 
> Wikipedia have OpenStreetMap integration into articles. I.e. if you open a
> geocoded wikipedia article you can click in the top right corner on either
> the globe symbol in e.g. the English Wikipedia or the textual link "Map" in
> e.g. the German Wikipedia which opens an inline map into the article showing
> the place based on an OSM map.
> 
> There were considerations on adding an "edit" link to the map, as it would
> a) be fitting to Wikipedia and b) help OSM gain new contributors as it can
> capitalize on the huge user base of Wikipedia.
> 
> However, one concern with adding an edit link was to explain to the
> Wikipedia user why after clicking on the edit link they suddenly landed on
> this "odd" page called OpenStreetMap which wants a new user name and
> password from you. How does this relate to Wikipedia where they actually
> wanted to be? What is the concept behind OpenStreetMap? How and what can I
> edit?
> 
> So the idea was to redirect first time map editors (not logged into OSM and
> don't have an OSM cookie) via an explanatory contributor page before sending
> them to the editor page.
> 
> To Wikipedia users the concept of users editing the content is already
> familiar, but on many other third party sites that use OSM maps, the
> relation between the page they came from and OSM is likely even less clear
> to users.
> 
> Therefor having people redirect through a explanatory page would be even
> more helpful. I think the contributor page as presented here could be a
> really nice basis for such a page.
> 
> So instead of replacing attribution, the contributor mark is an additional
> component acting as a well recognizable "edit this map" button with the
> underlying explanatory page for new contributors.
> 
> OSM could then encourage everyone who uses OSM maps to add this contributor
> mark / button to really try and capitalize the growing share of OSM users
> into new mappers by providing a more user friendly integration. To Website
> providers this would also be a benefit, as with including a few lines of
> simple html / javascript, they can help improve the maps they are using and
> identify them selves as real supporters to the OSM movement.
> 
> In that case imho the size and design of the current proposed "contributor
> mark" is much more appropriate than as an "attribution mark"
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Kai
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/RFC-OSM-contributor-mark-tp5743962p5744950.html
> Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Alex Barth
http://twitter.com/lxbarth
tel (+1) 202 250 3633





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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Paweł Paprota]

> Isn't the purpose of "OSM and Contributors" to "credit" or "attribute"
> the
> source of the map tile data?
> 

Maybe, maybe not. More importantly - the fact that there's a discussion
what this "mark" tries to communicate means that it fails to do it
properly in the first place. 

At first glance I thought it was just sort of a banner to promote OSM
but if it is to replace the legal attribution then it's not really doing
that job. I support Kai's idea about separating the two functions. I
like the Wikipedia example. It would be really cool to have a widely
known "edit" button/symbol/"mark" sitting in the corner of embedded maps
to show that the map is a living thing that can be corrected, enriched
etc.

I also agree with Tom - naming stuff *is* very important and is
definitely not a side issue. Right now "contributors mark" suggests at
least two different things - list of contributors or some kind of award
for being a contributor and neither of them is true... This stuff should
really be dead simple and intuitive, if you have to think about it as a
user, explain, discuss then forget it, it won't work in the wild. Of
course it's always harder to communicate more with less but that's the
main challenge I  see here...

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Jeff Meyer]

Isn't the purpose of "OSM and Contributors" to "credit" or "attribute" the
source of the map tile data?

e.g. if FourSquare puts the OSM mark on their maps, they aren't showing
that OSM has contributed to the 4sq map, they are attributing the source of
their tiles to OSM.

The fact that it links to, or mentions, OSM contributors isn't what this
statement or mark is about.
No one would call "(c) Google.com" a "contributor" mark.

The fact that we elect to require reference to Contributors in our credits
or to discuss Contributors on our copyright is something we choose to do
because, well, because OSM rocks.

My elaborate 2 cents...

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Tom Hughes  wrote:

> On 16/01/13 19:08, Alex Barth wrote:
>
>  ## Terminology: "Contributor mark" vs e. g. "Attribution mark"
>>
>> Some have pointed out that 'attribution mark' might be a more accurate
>> name. That might be, I don't want to change up at the moment but definitely
>> a discussion to be had if ever we use this term more "officially" on
>> openstreetmap.org.
>>
>
> I think the problem is that you are already locking in the terminology by
> using "contributors" in the URL of the landing page.
>
> In fact that's my main problem with the terminology - the proposed content
> is not at all what I would expect to see on a page with that URL as the URL
> suggests some sort of list of contributors.
>
>
>  ## Design
>>
>> There were comments on the design being heavy on pictures and not using
>> the current OpenStreetMap.org template. I'm thinking these are good things.
>> With adjustments, I'd love to keep it this way. The pictures help us
>> communicate that OSM is created by many many, many individuals, the full
>> screen page allows us to focus the message. And yes, there is scrolling
>> before hitting the links. This is good as we'll want to have the space for
>> a couple of points to get across before people jump off. It's not the case
>> that we've got great introductory properties to link to right now :) In the
>> future this could change: E. g. as soon as we have great introductory
>> material we could link this more prominently "Get started mapping" above
>> the fold. Or we could come up with a variation of the page that offers a
>> link into an editor placing you right where you left the map.
>>
>> That said, we should work on taking a stronger queue from the overall
>> osm.org appearance to link this ad stronger to OpenStreetMap:
>>
>> https://github.com/**openstreetmap/openstreetmap-**
>> website/pull/180#issuecomment-**12333532
>>
>
> The scrolling itself is not the problem so much as the lack of visual cues
> that you can scroll - as I said on IRC it was only after you started
> talking about a link that I couldn't see that I realised there was anything
> "below the fold" as the giant picture had made it look like a fixed page.
>
> Tom
>
> --
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> http://compton.nu/
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Tom Hughes]

On 16/01/13 19:08, Alex Barth wrote:


## Terminology: "Contributor mark" vs e. g. "Attribution mark"

Some have pointed out that 'attribution mark' might be a more accurate name. That might 
be, I don't want to change up at the moment but definitely a discussion to be had if ever 
we use this term more "officially" on openstreetmap.org.


I think the problem is that you are already locking in the terminology 
by using "contributors" in the URL of the landing page.


In fact that's my main problem with the terminology - the proposed 
content is not at all what I would expect to see on a page with that URL 
as the URL suggests some sort of list of contributors.



## Design

There were comments on the design being heavy on pictures and not using the current 
OpenStreetMap.org template. I'm thinking these are good things. With adjustments, I'd 
love to keep it this way. The pictures help us communicate that OSM is created by many 
many, many individuals, the full screen page allows us to focus the message. And yes, 
there is scrolling before hitting the links. This is good as we'll want to have the space 
for a couple of points to get across before people jump off. It's not the case that we've 
got great introductory properties to link to right now :) In the future this could 
change: E. g. as soon as we have great introductory material we could link this more 
prominently "Get started mapping" above the fold. Or we could come up with a 
variation of the page that offers a link into an editor placing you right where you left 
the map.

That said, we should work on taking a stronger queue from the overall osm.org 
appearance to link this ad stronger to OpenStreetMap:

https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/180#issuecomment-12333532


The scrolling itself is not the problem so much as the lack of visual 
cues that you can scroll - as I said on IRC it was only after you 
started talking about a link that I couldn't see that I realised there 
was anything "below the fold" as the giant picture had made it look like 
a fixed page.


Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Kai Krueger]

Hi,

may I throw a related, but slightly different concept, out there for
discussion?

I think some of the confusion between "contributor mark" and "attribution
mark" is that they may be entirely different things. From the design I have
seen so far it seems indeed more like a "contributor mark" than an
"attribution mark", but you are planning on using it as an "attribution
mark"

I'll give an example to try and clarify what I mean by "contributor mark" as
opposed to "attribution mark":

Wikipedia have OpenStreetMap integration into articles. I.e. if you open a
geocoded wikipedia article you can click in the top right corner on either
the globe symbol in e.g. the English Wikipedia or the textual link "Map" in
e.g. the German Wikipedia which opens an inline map into the article showing
the place based on an OSM map.

There were considerations on adding an "edit" link to the map, as it would
a) be fitting to Wikipedia and b) help OSM gain new contributors as it can
capitalize on the huge user base of Wikipedia.

However, one concern with adding an edit link was to explain to the
Wikipedia user why after clicking on the edit link they suddenly landed on
this "odd" page called OpenStreetMap which wants a new user name and
password from you. How does this relate to Wikipedia where they actually
wanted to be? What is the concept behind OpenStreetMap? How and what can I
edit?

So the idea was to redirect first time map editors (not logged into OSM and
don't have an OSM cookie) via an explanatory contributor page before sending
them to the editor page.

To Wikipedia users the concept of users editing the content is already
familiar, but on many other third party sites that use OSM maps, the
relation between the page they came from and OSM is likely even less clear
to users.

Therefor having people redirect through a explanatory page would be even
more helpful. I think the contributor page as presented here could be a
really nice basis for such a page.

So instead of replacing attribution, the contributor mark is an additional
component acting as a well recognizable "edit this map" button with the
underlying explanatory page for new contributors.

OSM could then encourage everyone who uses OSM maps to add this contributor
mark / button to really try and capitalize the growing share of OSM users
into new mappers by providing a more user friendly integration. To Website
providers this would also be a benefit, as with including a few lines of
simple html / javascript, they can help improve the maps they are using and
identify them selves as real supporters to the OSM movement.

In that case imho the size and design of the current proposed "contributor
mark" is much more appropriate than as an "attribution mark"

Thoughts?

Kai



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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Paul Norman]

> From: Alex Barth [mailto:a...@mapbox.com]
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark
> 
> My initial writeup could have been clearer: This RFC _does_ seek to
> replace the currently recommended line "(c) OpenStreetMap contributors"
> linking to http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright with a visual mark
> linking to a future http://openstreetmap.org/contributors. Examples of
> the visual mark can be found on
> http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/examples.html and the suggested
> /contributors page can be found at http://yhahn.github.com/byosm.
> osm.org/copyright would be linked from osm.org/contributors in the
> future, more below.

I question if the hammer is a "notice ... reasonably calculated to make any
Person ... aware that the Content was obtained from the Database ... and
that it is available under [ODbL]".

The example notice for satisfying 4.3 is "Contains information from DATABASE
NAME, wich is made available here under the Open Database License (ODbL)"

I've cc'ed legal-talk@ because if this is even allowable is a legal
question. 

Regardless I'm not in favour.


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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Alex Barth]

Thanks again everyone for reviewing and weighing in. I'll try to summarize 
feedback here and identify adjustments and open decisions. I've added all I'm 
seeing actionable right now to the pull request on OSM.org [1]. I'm not aiming 
to close down the thread for good here, so please respond if I'm missing 
anything or if clarifications bring up additional suggestions. My next actions 
are to work with Saman (copied) on first adjustments based on feedback here.

While many suggested improvements, I am hearing general agreement to further 
pursue this proposal and work on implementing it. 

## Clarifications

My initial writeup could have been clearer: This RFC _does_ seek to replace the 
currently recommended line "(c) OpenStreetMap contributors" linking to 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright with a visual mark linking to a future 
http://openstreetmap.org/contributors. Examples of the visual mark can be found 
on http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/examples.html and the suggested /contributors 
page can be found at http://yhahn.github.com/byosm. osm.org/copyright would be 
linked from osm.org/contributors in the future, more below.

This is intricately linked to the goal of this proposal being to better promote 
OSM's openness on any OSM based map by:

- making it more compelling to click through to OSM
- providing a real entry point to understanding and working with OSM on the 
destination page

## Hammer mark

This has probably been the most discussed issue :) There have been multiple 
voices expressing concern with the suggested hammer-in-teardrop mark. The main 
ones were:

1. It should have some textual component saying "OpenStreetMap" or "OSM"
2. It should be more prominent
3. It is not unique/compelling enough

Points 1 and 2 are easy adjustments, 3 is the tough one. I do sense we have 
agreement on a visual element instead of just a text line but we're not quite 
excited about the hammer. I'd love to follow up on this topic separately, 
rehashing how we got to the current mark and suggesting alternatives.

## Terminology: "Contributor mark" vs e. g. "Attribution mark"

Some have pointed out that 'attribution mark' might be a more accurate name. 
That might be, I don't want to change up at the moment but definitely a 
discussion to be had if ever we use this term more "officially" on 
openstreetmap.org.

## Legal requirement

As the page osm.org/contributors is to be the first one linked from a map it 
needs to fulfill legal requirements. I suggest we adjust the text on 
osm.org/contributors to explicitly reference ODbL and link to an updated 
openstreetmap.org/copyright.

https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/180#issuecomment-12293006

## Attributions

There are currently attributions to specific data sources on 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright (Austria to United Kingdom). These need 
to be accomodated on `/contributors`. I see this as an opportunity to add an 
important facet to `/contributors`.

https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/180#issuecomment-12333486

## Refine message

There were suggestions to focus the message more on encouraging potential 
mappers. I think that's a good idea. One way of doing this could be to replace 
"Learn more about OSM" with "Get started editing". That would be ideal, there 
is obviously the problem of not really having a spot to link to to 'just get 
started mapping'. Another one is to just tweak the language we're using.

https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/180#issuecomment-12333756

## Design

There were comments on the design being heavy on pictures and not using the 
current OpenStreetMap.org template. I'm thinking these are good things. With 
adjustments, I'd love to keep it this way. The pictures help us communicate 
that OSM is created by many many, many individuals, the full screen page allows 
us to focus the message. And yes, there is scrolling before hitting the links. 
This is good as we'll want to have the space for a couple of points to get 
across before people jump off. It's not the case that we've got great 
introductory properties to link to right now :) In the future this could 
change: E. g. as soon as we have great introductory material we could link this 
more prominently "Get started mapping" above the fold. Or we could come up with 
a variation of the page that offers a link into an editor placing you right 
where you left the map.

That said, we should work on taking a stronger queue from the overall osm.org 
appearance to link this ad stronger to OpenStreetMap:

https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/180#issuecomment-12333532

[1] Related pull request on osm-website: 
https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/180

On Jan 11, 2013, at 9:26 AM, Alex Barth  wrote:

> Over here at MapBox we see a need to better communicate the open and 
> contributory philosophy of OpenStreetMap on our maps. In striving to build a 
> true data com

Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Simon Poole]

Alex

Yes, there is at least a handful of contributors have had the link
specified in discussion or/and agreement. While it is unlikely that it
was put in writing that it should be one click away from the map, it
would seem to be rather devious to simply move it without at least
consultation.

On top of that there is a vocal group that thinks that the attribution
and licence presentation as it is now is not prominent enough, moving it
further away is undoubtedly going to be opposed.

One thing the work leading up to the licence change showed was that how
we document and administrate imports and other data sources doesn't
scale and leads to a mass of essentially undocumented (for example
attribution requirements) and orphaned imports. So yes I believe we will
need to change and merge both attribution locations, but simply merging
the two lists is not going to address the underlying issues (which IMHO
not difficult to get a handle on).

Simon


Am 15.01.2013 23:15, schrieb Alex Barth:
> Frederik -
>
> On Jan 11, 2013, at 12:03 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
>
>> the copyright page we're using now might be better suited for that, not 
>> least because many third parties who give us their data are promised 
>> attribution via that page and it might not be good to put that behind too 
>> many clicks.
> I'd like to understand better, have these parties been promised the 
> /copyright location for credits? How do they wind up on there vs. on the 
> wiki? Is there any leeway to merge them into (a better) 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors and move them a click away 
> from the page on OSM that's linked from maps?  
>
> Alex Barth
> http://twitter.com/lxbarth
> tel (+1) 202 250 3633
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Jeff Meyer]

Alex - for the recent King County and City of Seattle disclaimers, I
explicitly pointed them to the http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/**
wiki/Contributors , and
asked if putting the disclaimers on that page would suffice. They said yes.
I don't know if that means the wiki page is the right or best solution,
just that it indisputably worked for 2 sources.

My impression is that there's also a mismatch between import sources who
*should* be listed (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Import) and
those who actually are. I'd be glad to compare and update the
attributions... assuming no one else is dying to do it! ; )

- Jeff

On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> On 15.01.2013 23:15, Alex Barth wrote:
>
>> I'd like to understand better, have these parties been promised the
>> /copyright location for credits? How do they wind up on there vs. on
>> the wiki? Is there any leeway to merge them into (a better)
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/**wiki/Contributorsand
>>  move them a click
>> away from the page on OSM that's linked from maps?
>>
>
> It's hard to say what is, or has been, promised. But we (=we the project,
> not we the OSMF) occasionally encounter potential data providers who have
> some sort of license that says "you must provide attribution", without
> clearly saying where and how. Then we often explain OSM to them, saying
> "you can't get attribution on the map, but your attribution will be in the
> object history and if you want we can put you on
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/**copyrightwhich
>  we ask people to link to when they use our data", and we ask them
> "would that fulfil your demand for attribution?" and if they say yes we can
> use their data.
>
> You'd have to check with LWG but I doubt that any of those listed on that
> page have been promised to be exactly one click away from the map; they
> probably have been promised to be listed "on this page". Still it could be
> perceived as bad style if we move them to a less prominent place.
>
> I don't think that a Wiki page will do because the words on the copyright
> page are probably meant to be written exactly as they are there, and not
> subject to Wiki editing, for legal reasons. But that would really be
> something to discuss with the LWG.
>
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 15.01.2013 23:15, Alex Barth wrote:

I'd like to understand better, have these parties been promised the
/copyright location for credits? How do they wind up on there vs. on
the wiki? Is there any leeway to merge them into (a better)
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors and move them a click
away from the page on OSM that's linked from maps?


It's hard to say what is, or has been, promised. But we (=we the 
project, not we the OSMF) occasionally encounter potential data 
providers who have some sort of license that says "you must provide 
attribution", without clearly saying where and how. Then we often 
explain OSM to them, saying "you can't get attribution on the map, but 
your attribution will be in the object history and if you want we can 
put you on http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright which we ask people to 
link to when they use our data", and we ask them "would that fulfil your 
demand for attribution?" and if they say yes we can use their data.


You'd have to check with LWG but I doubt that any of those listed on 
that page have been promised to be exactly one click away from the map; 
they probably have been promised to be listed "on this page". Still it 
could be perceived as bad style if we move them to a less prominent place.


I don't think that a Wiki page will do because the words on the 
copyright page are probably meant to be written exactly as they are 
there, and not subject to Wiki editing, for legal reasons. But that 
would really be something to discuss with the LWG.


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Alex Barth]

Frederik -

On Jan 11, 2013, at 12:03 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> the copyright page we're using now might be better suited for that, not least 
> because many third parties who give us their data are promised attribution 
> via that page and it might not be good to put that behind too many clicks.

I'd like to understand better, have these parties been promised the /copyright 
location for credits? How do they wind up on there vs. on the wiki? Is there 
any leeway to merge them into (a better) 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors and move them a click away from 
the page on OSM that's linked from maps?  

Alex Barth
http://twitter.com/lxbarth
tel (+1) 202 250 3633





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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Jeff Meyer]

Ah now I see... they're really upside-down teardrops or
pushpins/mapmarkers. Sorry to be so literal!

On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 11:37 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:

>  There was also
> http://www.crowdspring.com/project/2316224_openstreetmap-logo/access/which 
> mainly had pins.
>
> Simon
>
> Am 14.01.2013 20:15, schrieb Jeff Meyer:
>
> Simon - thanks! But... I didn't see any teardrops or armpits there - is
> there another place to look for past teardrops?
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:
>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Logos#Logo_design_competitions
>>
>> Am 14.01.2013 19:12, schrieb Jeff Meyer:
>>
>>  Are there any links to past design comps? Past teardrops? Dare I ask,
>>> past armpits?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>   ___
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>
>
>
>  --
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> j...@gwhat.org
> 206-676-2347
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> OSM
>  / my OSM user page 
>  t: @GWHAThistory 
>  f: GWHAThistory 
>
>
>
>
>


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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Simon Poole]

There was also 
http://www.crowdspring.com/project/2316224_openstreetmap-logo/access/ 
which mainly had pins.


Simon

Am 14.01.2013 20:15, schrieb Jeff Meyer:
Simon - thanks! But... I didn't see any teardrops or armpits there - 
is there another place to look for past teardrops?



On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Simon Poole > wrote:


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Logos#Logo_design_competitions

Am 14.01.2013 19:12, schrieb Jeff Meyer:

Are there any links to past design comps? Past teardrops? Dare
I ask, past armpits?



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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Brad Neuhauser]

There's some teardrop designs on this page (which is linked to from the
logo design competitions):
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Logo

On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Jeff Meyer  wrote:

> Simon - thanks! But... I didn't see any teardrops or armpits there - is
> there another place to look for past teardrops?
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:
>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/**wiki/Logos#Logo_design_**competitions
>>
>> Am 14.01.2013 19:12, schrieb Jeff Meyer:
>>
>>  Are there any links to past design comps? Past teardrops? Dare I ask,
>>> past armpits?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> __**_
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>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
>
> --
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> Global World History Atlas
> www.gwhat.org
> j...@gwhat.org
> 206-676-2347
>  osm: Historical 
> OSM
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>  f: GWHAThistory 
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Jeff Meyer]

Simon - thanks! But... I didn't see any teardrops or armpits there - is
there another place to look for past teardrops?


On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:

> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/**wiki/Logos#Logo_design_**competitions
>
> Am 14.01.2013 19:12, schrieb Jeff Meyer:
>
>  Are there any links to past design comps? Past teardrops? Dare I ask,
>> past armpits?
>>
>>
>
> __**_
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> http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk
>



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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Simon Poole]

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Logos#Logo_design_competitions

Am 14.01.2013 19:12, schrieb Jeff Meyer:
Are there any links to past design comps? Past teardrops? Dare I ask, 
past armpits?





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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Jeff Meyer]

Are there any links to past design comps? Past teardrops? Dare I ask, past
armpits?

On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 5:39 AM, Gregory wrote:

> When I started reading the proposal I liked the idea. Some icon to say "I
> use OSM data behind this, and I'm proud!" instead(well in addition to) the
> compulsory attribution.
>
> But the faded "teardrop" took me ages to find on the examples, and then I
> just though "what, is that OSM?".
> It doesn't remind me of OSM at all (although to be fair, it's new and not
> in use yet). But it's small, not proud.
>
> I'm also with the majority of people that disliked marker/teardrop icons
> in previous design comps. (although I did like the 'armpit' design)
> Markers are what people can add to OSM, not what it is.
>
> I like the simplicity of the page the hammer tear links to, and the
> presentation of the 3 points. Although I'm not a fan of 80% of the screen
> being a photo, I'm also not a designer.
> Has it been thought how the photos would be chossen, and when/how they
> would be updated? Is it going to be another task like Image of the Week and
> Map Task of the Month?
>
> --
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> o...@livingwithdragons.com
> http://www.livingwithdragons.com
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Gregory]

When I started reading the proposal I liked the idea. Some icon to say "I
use OSM data behind this, and I'm proud!" instead(well in addition to) the
compulsory attribution.

But the faded "teardrop" took me ages to find on the examples, and then I
just though "what, is that OSM?".
It doesn't remind me of OSM at all (although to be fair, it's new and not
in use yet). But it's small, not proud.

I'm also with the majority of people that disliked marker/teardrop icons in
previous design comps. (although I did like the 'armpit' design)
Markers are what people can add to OSM, not what it is.

I like the simplicity of the page the hammer tear links to, and the
presentation of the 3 points. Although I'm not a fan of 80% of the screen
being a photo, I'm also not a designer.
Has it been thought how the photos would be chossen, and when/how they
would be updated? Is it going to be another task like Image of the Week and
Map Task of the Month?

-- 
Gregory
o...@livingwithdragons.com
http://www.livingwithdragons.com
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Kate Chapman]

I also would like to echo that it is a good idea.

Perhaps if people don't like the hammer/bubble it would make sense to
have a logo design contest or something. Personally I think anything
that is simple and appealing and makes it clear to people can click on
it is great.

Best,

-Kate

On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 3:42 AM, yvecai  wrote:
> This is a very nice idea!
> But before discussing the logo, maybe a simple redesign of the osm logo in a
> smaller version allowing readibility but keeping the magnifier and the map
> would save lot of talk.
> I'm no expert, but somebody with real talent could make something in that
> idea: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Yvecai/logo
>
> Yves
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[yvecai]

This is a very nice idea!
But before discussing the logo, maybe a simple redesign of the osm logo 
in a smaller version allowing readibility but keeping the magnifier and 
the map would save lot of talk.
I'm no expert, but somebody with real talent could make something in 
that idea: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Yvecai/logo


Yves

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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Martin Koppenhöfer]

Am 13.01.2013 um 12:46 schrieb Philipp Kandal :
> On 01/11/2013 03:26 PM, Alex Barth wrote:
>> Over here at MapBox we see a need to better communicate the open and
>> contributory philosophy of OpenStreetMap on our maps.
> I fully agree with that vision and I think overall one of the key things
> of that is that people using services made with OpenStreetMap (such as
> Foursquare, Mapbox or our skobbler) can be better encouraged to become
> active OSM community members.
> So we would be definitely supportive of such a standardization and better
> communication.
> 


+1


> On 01/11/2013 05:03 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> 
>> Also, we in OpenStreetMap have often positioned ourselves as "more than
>> just markers on a map", and logo suggestions involving the typical map
>> marker teardrop have been rejected (loudly) in the past because of that.
> If we try to fit all symbolism in the logo it will certainly fail, so I
> think here we have to make a compromise and foremost a logo must be catchy
> and easy to identify. Even the best logos (e.g. Twitters bird) catch only
> part of the identity (in this case freedom) and not every single aspect of
> a service.


while this might be true there is still an open question whether a hammer is 
the best symbol to choose from. (One could argue that it is a good 
representation for someone actually doing something, but on the other hand it's 
also a symbol for something not done in the most precise way ).
Personally if I had to choose from these two: 
http://www.deutschesinstitut.it/Newsletter/bilder/ddr_hammer_sichel.png
I would have chosen the compasses. ;-)

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 13.01.2013 12:46, Philipp Kandal wrote:

I think it really depends on where you use it, in the Web definitely
people should be encouraged to write the full name, but on mobile reality
is most companies don't put anything on the map


Even if they display a Google map?


Also, we in OpenStreetMap have often positioned ourselves as "more than
just markers on a map", and logo suggestions involving the typical map
marker teardrop have been rejected (loudly) in the past because of that.


If we try to fit all symbolism in the logo it will certainly fail


Yes. The problem with the teardrop logos in the past was not that they 
were missing symbolism, but using the wrong symbolism - essentially 
suggesting that OSM was about placing markers.


Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Philipp Kandal]

Hi,

On 01/11/2013 03:26 PM, Alex Barth wrote:

>Over here at MapBox we see a need to better communicate the open and
>contributory philosophy of OpenStreetMap on our maps.
I fully agree with that vision and I think overall one of the key things
of that is that people using services made with OpenStreetMap (such as
Foursquare, Mapbox or our skobbler) can be better encouraged to become
active OSM community members.
So we would be definitely supportive of such a standardization and better
communication.

On 01/11/2013 05:03 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>The symbol itself I find too unobtrusive though; we should encourage
>people making maps from OSM to actually have "OpenStreetMap"
>written on the map and not a little symbol.


I think it really depends on where you use it, in the Web definitely
people should be encouraged to write the full name, but on mobile reality
is most companies don't put anything on the map and put it either before
using the map as a disclaimer or in the about sections (such as Apple
does) so the hammer would be a significant improvement on mobile to the
status quo.
It's also standard for building a brand identity to have multiple
representation (see Mercedes where you either have only the 'mercedes
star' or the star & the font 'Mercedes Benz'.
That's the same what I would do for this attribution once with text and
once without depending on context, space, etc.

On 01/11/2013 05:03 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

>Also, we in OpenStreetMap have often positioned ourselves as "more than
>just markers on a map", and logo suggestions involving the typical map
>marker teardrop have been rejected (loudly) in the past because of that.

If we try to fit all symbolism in the logo it will certainly fail, so I
think here we have to make a compromise and foremost a logo must be catchy
and easy to identify. Even the best logos (e.g. Twitters bird) catch only
part of the identity (in this case freedom) and not every single aspect of
a service.


Best regards,
Philipp


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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Alex Barth]

Thanks for taking the time to review and respond everyone so far. It's great to 
see that there is general support for this idea (there are certainly a couple 
of issues to work through). I'd like to give people more time to weigh in 
before responding to the threads that are emerging in this discussion, please 
don't take my silence as absence from the discussion in the meantime.

On Jan 12, 2013, at 4:07 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On 01/12/2013 12:45 AM, Johan C wrote:
>> The message in my opinion should invite people more to act themselves
>> instead of relying on others to create a map.
> 
> That's a very good point. We've occasionally used the phrase "made by people 
> like you and me" or so, to make it clear that we strive to include everyone 
> instead of having creators on one side and consumers on the other. But I like 
> your "take a look and join in" too.
> 
>> (and this of course preferrably in the correct language version)
> 
> I'm sure our community would provide translations quickly. This is also the 
> first time where I think that we might perhaps want to give translators the 
> option of exchanging the imagery as well. I'm not a communications expert but 
> it is quite possible that an image that works great for Europe and the US 
> suddenly is problematic in India or Japan.
> 
> Bye
> Frederik
> 
> -- 
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
> 
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Alex Barth
http://twitter.com/lxbarth
tel (+1) 202 250 3633





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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 01/12/2013 12:45 AM, Johan C wrote:

The message in my opinion should invite people more to act themselves
instead of relying on others to create a map.


That's a very good point. We've occasionally used the phrase "made by 
people like you and me" or so, to make it clear that we strive to 
include everyone instead of having creators on one side and consumers on 
the other. But I like your "take a look and join in" too.



(and this of course preferrably in the correct language version)


I'm sure our community would provide translations quickly. This is also 
the first time where I think that we might perhaps want to give 
translators the option of exchanging the imagery as well. I'm not a 
communications expert but it is quite possible that an image that works 
great for Europe and the US suddenly is problematic in India or Japan.


Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Johan C]

I very much like the proposal, thanks for doing that. The goal to achieve
more awareness is great, let's act to achieve that goal. Several things
have been said about the mark. I think having text like osm.org/c there is
a  + 1. Intel Inside has text. FairTrade has text. Maybe for the mark (next
to the text) also a tweak of the present OSM logo (left top of osm.org)
could do the job.

For the process: please make adjustments and send in the next draft.
Putting it on osm.org seems like a must: if our page doesn't have it, why
should others use it?

About the text: *OSM is built by a community of local mappers that keeps
data about roads, cafés, subway stations, and much more up to date every
day.*
It might create false expectations, Last Sunday I drove on a quite
important primary road. My OSM navigation let me down. Later I found out
that it was due to a turn restriction error which was already there for 1,5
year.
The message in my opinion should invite people more to act themselves
instead of relying on others to create a map. I'm not a communication
expert, but maybe something like this: 'Openstreetmap is built by a growing
community that wants to create the best map in the world. Take a look at
your neighbourhood and join in to experience the fun of adding data about
roads, shops and so on.

(and this of course preferrably in the correct language version)

Cheers, Johan



2013/1/11 Cartinus 

> +1
>
> On 01/11/2013 08:27 PM, Michal Migurski wrote:
> > I like the spirit of this, and I think it's a necessary and welcome
> idea. When Stamen did the Nike Grid Run project a few years ago, the one
> place where it was not possible to display correct attribution was on the
> TV ads, so a significantly smaller but still compliant contribution marker
> would have been helpful. I think it should be textual though, and in my
> opinion a memorable link to more useful information.
> >
> > What about "osm.org/c" ? Small, obviously a URL, can be easily tucked
> away in a corner in the same way as the hammer mark, but when seen it can
> be acted-on regardless of medium. /c would redirect.
> ---
> m.v.g.,
> Cartinus
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Cartinus]

+1

On 01/11/2013 08:27 PM, Michal Migurski wrote:
> I like the spirit of this, and I think it's a necessary and welcome idea. 
> When Stamen did the Nike Grid Run project a few years ago, the one place 
> where it was not possible to display correct attribution was on the TV ads, 
> so a significantly smaller but still compliant contribution marker would have 
> been helpful. I think it should be textual though, and in my opinion a 
> memorable link to more useful information. 
> 
> What about "osm.org/c" ? Small, obviously a URL, can be easily tucked away in 
> a corner in the same way as the hammer mark, but when seen it can be acted-on 
> regardless of medium. /c would redirect. 
---
m.v.g.,
Cartinus

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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Michal Migurski]

I like the spirit of this, and I think it's a necessary and welcome idea. When 
Stamen did the Nike Grid Run project a few years ago, the one place where it 
was not possible to display correct attribution was on the TV ads, so a 
significantly smaller but still compliant contribution marker would have been 
helpful. I think it should be textual though, and in my opinion a memorable 
link to more useful information. 

What about "osm.org/c" ? Small, obviously a URL, can be easily tucked away in a 
corner in the same way as the hammer mark, but when seen it can be acted-on 
regardless of medium. /c would redirect. 

-mike.

---
michal migurski http://mike.teczno.com

On Jan 11, 2013, at 10:30 AM, Mikel Maron  wrote:

> I agree with the other comments. Some text is needed, though perhaps it can 
> be compressed to something like "Made By OSM"? I do like the symbol in 
> itself, but it's too subtle here and needs to somehow evoke the OSM brand.
>  
> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
> From: Alex Barth 
> To: "talk@openstreetmap.org Openstreetmap"  
> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 9:26 AM
> Subject: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark
> 
> Over here at MapBox we see a need to better communicate the open and 
> contributory philosophy of OpenStreetMap on our maps. In striving to build a 
> true data commons for contributing and distributing geographic knowledge, 
> OpenStreetMap relies on map users being aware of the openness of its 
> underlying data. At the same time there is room for improvement how we all 
> (the OpenStreetMap community) attribute map data - the ever-expanding range 
> of OSM based maps in the world are an incredible communication channel to 
> talk to individuals who are potential contributors, and encourage them to 
> choose open data or support the OpenStreetMap project in other ways.
> 
> ## Proposal
> 
> Inspired by successful campaigns like "Intel Inside" and "Fair Trade", this 
> RFC proposes an OpenStreetMap contributor mark for use on OpenStreetMap based 
> maps. The goal of the OSM contributor mark is to be adopted by as many OSM 
> data users as possible and on as many OSM based maps as possible, thus 
> creating more awareness of the value of free and open geographic data.
> 
> With these goals in mind
> 
> - the mark should be compelling and recognizable (i.e. not generic).
> - it should work off maps in cases where thumbnail maps need to be attributed 
> e.g. in mobile devices
> - the mark should be clearly distinct from common map user interface elements.
> - the mark should link to a page on openstreetmap.org that explains the 
> openness of OSM data and its local, community driven nature.
> 
> Based on this thinking, we have developed a mark that links to a 
> corresponding page for OpenStreetMap.org. This work is captured in a pull 
> request to openstreetmap.org, but you can review it on the demo instance I 
> will walk through here.
> 
> Pull request: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/180
> 
> ### Example usages
> 
> Here are some example maps using the OSM contributor mark:
> 
> http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/examples.html
> 
> (none of the organizations or individuals used on these examples have 
> officially endorsed this proposal yet, including osm.org).
> 
> ### Linking back to OSM
> 
> The contributor mark on these maps link all back to the same page that should 
> be ultimately hosted on `openstreetmap.org/contributors`:
> 
> http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/ (just a demo domain, this should live ideally 
> on `openstreetmap.org/contributors`)
> 
> The osm.org/contributors communicates key OpenStreetMap features:
> 
> - Powering map data in hundreds of applications
> - Local knowledge
> - Community driven
> - Open data
> 
> A "learn more" button invites to explore more.
> 
> The main purpose of this page is to feature OpenStreetMap as a community 
> powered project. Hence we worked with pictures of individuals where possible. 
> *We are currently reaching out to photographers and individuals on pictures 
> to get copyright permissions and model releases, if you're on one of these 
> pictures or if you're the photographer of one of these pictures, please get 
> in touch with me.*
> 
> ### Configurable tiles and wording
> 
> By modifying the URL to osm.org/contributors specific tile sets and map 
> providers can be featured, like in this example of a link from a Stamen map:
> 
> http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/index.html?name=Stamen&image=tile.stamen.com/watercolor/10/164/396.jpg&vendor=Stamen&vendorURL=maps.stamen.com
> 
> ### Linking back to OSM based services
> 
> Organizations who provide OSM based services can choose to set a discreet 
> link from the bottom of osm.org/contributors to their web sites:
> 
> http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/index.html?name=skobbler&image=http://tiles2.skobbler.net/osm_tiles2/11/511/806.png&vendor=skobbler&vendorURL=skobbler.us
> 
> http://yhahn.github.com/byo

Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Christian Quest]

I also like the idea to have something identifying reuse of OSM data
without mixing it with using the OSM logo (see other recent discussion
about this here on talk@).

On the graphical side, it should be more visible than the draft... the
ribbon idea looks nice too or use a smaller but full corner like a
page flip one.
Ribbon or corner allow to have some text which is difficult or
impossible with an icon or logo.

Instead of "Made by OSM", I would prefer "Made with OSM" as the tiles
or the whole site using OSM cannot be considered made "by" OSM.

A pages linked should graphically attractive like the one in the
draft, where I would see a few simple messages like:
- you can help, improve, contribute
- you can (re)use,
- free licence


2013/1/11 Mikel Maron :
> I agree with the other comments. Some text is needed, though perhaps it can
> be compressed to something like "Made By OSM"? I do like the symbol in
> itself, but it's too subtle here and needs to somehow evoke the OSM brand.
>
> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
>
> 
> From: Alex Barth 
> To: "talk@openstreetmap.org Openstreetmap" 
> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 9:26 AM
> Subject: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark
>
> Over here at MapBox we see a need to better communicate the open and
> contributory philosophy of OpenStreetMap on our maps. In striving to build a
> true data commons for contributing and distributing geographic knowledge,
> OpenStreetMap relies on map users being aware of the openness of its
> underlying data. At the same time there is room for improvement how we all
> (the OpenStreetMap community) attribute map data - the ever-expanding range
> of OSM based maps in the world are an incredible communication channel to
> talk to individuals who are potential contributors, and encourage them to
> choose open data or support the OpenStreetMap project in other ways.
>
> ## Proposal
>
> Inspired by successful campaigns like "Intel Inside" and "Fair Trade", this
> RFC proposes an OpenStreetMap contributor mark for use on OpenStreetMap
> based maps. The goal of the OSM contributor mark is to be adopted by as many
> OSM data users as possible and on as many OSM based maps as possible, thus
> creating more awareness of the value of free and open geographic data.
>
> With these goals in mind
>
> - the mark should be compelling and recognizable (i.e. not generic).
> - it should work off maps in cases where thumbnail maps need to be
> attributed e.g. in mobile devices
> - the mark should be clearly distinct from common map user interface
> elements.
> - the mark should link to a page on openstreetmap.org that explains the
> openness of OSM data and its local, community driven nature.
>
> Based on this thinking, we have developed a mark that links to a
> corresponding page for OpenStreetMap.org. This work is captured in a pull
> request to openstreetmap.org, but you can review it on the demo instance I
> will walk through here.
>
> Pull request:
> https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/180
>
> ### Example usages
>
> Here are some example maps using the OSM contributor mark:
>
> http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/examples.html
>
> (none of the organizations or individuals used on these examples have
> officially endorsed this proposal yet, including osm.org).
>
> ### Linking back to OSM
>
> The contributor mark on these maps link all back to the same page that
> should be ultimately hosted on `openstreetmap.org/contributors`:
>
> http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/ (just a demo domain, this should live ideally
> on `openstreetmap.org/contributors`)
>
> The osm.org/contributors communicates key OpenStreetMap features:
>
> - Powering map data in hundreds of applications
> - Local knowledge
> - Community driven
> - Open data
>
> A "learn more" button invites to explore more.
>
> The main purpose of this page is to feature OpenStreetMap as a community
> powered project. Hence we worked with pictures of individuals where
> possible. *We are currently reaching out to photographers and individuals on
> pictures to get copyright permissions and model releases, if you're on one
> of these pictures or if you're the photographer of one of these pictures,
> please get in touch with me.*
>
> ### Configurable tiles and wording
>
> By modifying the URL to osm.org/contributors specific tile sets and map
> providers can be featured, like in this example of a link from a Stamen map:
>
> http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/index.html?name=Stamen&image=tile.stamen.com/watercolor/10/164/396.jpg&vendor=Stamen&vendorURL=maps.stamen.com
>
> ### Linking back to OSM based services
>
> Organizations who provide OSM based services can choose to set a discreet
> link from the bottom of osm.org/contributors to their web sites:
>
> http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/index.html?name=skobbler&image=http://tiles2.skobbler.net/osm_tiles2/11/511/806.png&vendor=skobbler&vendorURL=skobbler.us
>
> http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/index.ht

Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Mikel Maron]

I agree with the other comments. Some text is needed, though perhaps it can be 
compressed to something like "Made By OSM"? I do like the symbol in itself, but 
it's too subtle here and needs to somehow evoke the OSM brand.
 
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


>
> From: Alex Barth 
>To: "talk@openstreetmap.org Openstreetmap"  
>Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 9:26 AM
>Subject: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark
> 
>Over here at MapBox we see a need to better communicate the open and 
>contributory philosophy of OpenStreetMap on our maps. In striving to build a 
>true data commons for contributing and distributing geographic knowledge, 
>OpenStreetMap relies on map users being aware of the openness of its 
>underlying data. At the same time there is room for improvement how we all 
>(the OpenStreetMap community) attribute map data - the ever-expanding range of 
>OSM based maps in the world are an incredible communication channel to talk to 
>individuals who are potential contributors, and encourage them to choose open 
>data or support the OpenStreetMap project in other ways.
>
>## Proposal
>
>Inspired by successful campaigns like "Intel Inside" and "Fair Trade", this 
>RFC proposes an OpenStreetMap contributor mark for use on OpenStreetMap based 
>maps. The goal of the OSM contributor mark is to be adopted by as many OSM 
>data users as possible and on as many OSM based maps as possible, thus 
>creating more awareness of the value of free and open geographic data.
>
>With these goals in mind
>
>- the mark should be compelling and recognizable (i.e. not generic).
>- it should work off maps in cases where thumbnail maps need to be attributed 
>e.g. in mobile devices
>- the mark should be clearly distinct from common map user interface elements.
>- the mark should link to a page on openstreetmap.org that explains the 
>openness of OSM data and its local, community driven nature.
>
>Based on this thinking, we have developed a mark that links to a corresponding 
>page for OpenStreetMap.org. This work is captured in a pull request to 
>openstreetmap.org, but you can review it on the demo instance I will walk 
>through here.
>
>Pull request: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/180
>
>### Example usages
>
>Here are some example maps using the OSM contributor mark:
>
>http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/examples.html
>
>(none of the organizations or individuals used on these examples have 
>officially endorsed this proposal yet, including osm.org).
>
>### Linking back to OSM
>
>The contributor mark on these maps link all back to the same page that should 
>be ultimately hosted on `openstreetmap.org/contributors`:
>
>http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/ (just a demo domain, this should live ideally 
>on `openstreetmap.org/contributors`)
>
>The osm.org/contributors communicates key OpenStreetMap features:
>
>- Powering map data in hundreds of applications
>- Local knowledge
>- Community driven
>- Open data
>
>A "learn more" button invites to explore more.
>
>The main purpose of this page is to feature OpenStreetMap as a community 
>powered project. Hence we worked with pictures of individuals where possible. 
>*We are currently reaching out to photographers and individuals on pictures to 
>get copyright permissions and model releases, if you're on one of these 
>pictures or if you're the photographer of one of these pictures, please get in 
>touch with me.*
>
>### Configurable tiles and wording
>
>By modifying the URL to osm.org/contributors specific tile sets and map 
>providers can be featured, like in this example of a link from a Stamen map:
>
>http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/index.html?name=Stamen&image=tile.stamen.com/watercolor/10/164/396.jpg&vendor=Stamen&vendorURL=maps.stamen.com
>
>### Linking back to OSM based services
>
>Organizations who provide OSM based services can choose to set a discreet link 
>from the bottom of osm.org/contributors to their web sites:
>
>http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/index.html?name=skobbler&image=http://tiles2.skobbler.net/osm_tiles2/11/511/806.png&vendor=skobbler&vendorURL=skobbler.us
>
>http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/index.html?name=foursquare&image=https://dnv9my2eseobd.cloudfront.net/v3/foursquare.map-0y1jh28j/13/2342/3134.png&vendor=MapBox&vendorURL=mabox.com
>
>### Easy to configure
>
>It's easy to create your own variation of the page by clicking on "add to your 
>map" on the bottom of the page, check it out:
>
>http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/
>
>## Next steps
>
>I am pretty excited about this proposal, as it provides a better way to 
>present the virtues of the OSM project. I'm looking forward to everyone's 
>feedback and hope we have something we want to launch together. Please just 
>respond here or grab me on IRC if you'd like to discuss. This campaign can 
>only gain true momentum if we can get as many as possible to join in.
>
>Roughly the next steps are:
>
>- Feedback on this thread
>- Adjustments based on fe

Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Paweł Paprota]

On 01/11/2013 06:30 PM, Jeff Meyer wrote:

I love everything except the icon and the absence of attribution
text


Perhaps we could hit two birds with one stone by doing something similar
to Github's ribbons:

https://github.com/blog/273-github-ribbons

Just a simple ribbon graphics, slap some text like "Map data by OSM" on
it and both attribution and promotional aspects are dealt with.

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Jeff Meyer]

I love everything except the icon and the absence of attribution text.
(It's really an attribution mark, right? Calling it a contributor mark
seems confusing.)

It's almost as if the icon is intentionally nondescript, to drive questions
about OSM's current branding. If so, that's probably a good discussion to
have & I'm all for that, too, just separately.

-- 
Jeff Meyer
Global World History Atlas
www.gwhat.org
j...@gwhat.org
206-676-2347 osm:
 osm: Historical
OSM
 my OSM user page 
 t: @GWHAThistory 
 f: GWHAThistory 
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 01/11/2013 03:26 PM, Alex Barth wrote:

Over here at MapBox we see a need to better communicate the open and 
contributory philosophy of OpenStreetMap on our maps.


I see two aspects:

1 - standardising map attribution (your teardrop+hammer symbol)

2 - making a nice "about" page

Both are not necessarily connected but can be.

Your "about" pages look impressive! There is certainly room for such a 
"campaign" type set of pages somewhere on OSM where we can steer 
newcomers who want to see a slide show or so. Personally, I'd even like 
the openstreetmap.org start page to be very simple with a few links - 
one to your pages, one to the map, and perhaps a couple more. I'm not 
sure however if that set of pages (which is high on visuals and low on 
facts) would be the prime target for someone clicking on a map 
attribution somewhere; the copyright page we're using now might be 
better suited for that, not least because many third parties who give us 
their data are promised attribution via that page and it might not be 
good to put that behind too many clicks.


Standardising map attribution is often asked for and I welcome the 
effort. The symbol itself I find too unobtrusive though; we should 
encourage people making maps from OSM to actually have "OpenStreetMap" 
written on the map and not a little symbol. I don't see why we should be 
content with a mini icon when both Google and Bing require much larger 
attribution - it looks like we wanted to acknowledge that we're not as 
great as them!


Also, we in OpenStreetMap have often positioned ourselves as "more than 
just markers on a map", and logo suggestions involving the typical map 
marker teardrop have been rejected (loudly) in the past because of that. 
I find the hammer-and-teardrop symbol visually appealing but it might 
not be the right symbol for OSM.


Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Alex Barth]

On Jan 11, 2013, at 10:49 AM, Paweł Paprota  wrote:

> On 01/11/2013 03:26 PM, Alex Barth wrote:
>> http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/  (just a demo domain, this should live
>> ideally on `openstreetmap.org/contributors`)
> 
> Looks good as far as I understand the proposal...
> 
> One thing came to me at a quick glance - the new /contributors page does
> not have any visual references to the osm.org website styling, there is
> no chrome or even OSM logo there. Isn't that going to be confusing to
> the user to see such very different page that is part of the website?

I'm not worried about not using the openstreetmap.org chrome, it would be 
actually distracting. What matters is that this page clearly communicates what 
OSM is about and that it links back to OSM. It works much like a full screen 
ad. We did take care though to use OSM typical styles like the font and the 
colors.

> 
> Paweł
> 
> ___
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Alex Barth
http://twitter.com/lxbarth
tel (+1) 202 250 3633





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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Matt Amos]

On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 4:21 PM, Matt Amos  wrote:
> a link to the "copyright" page [1]

oops, forgot to add the footnote last time

[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright

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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Matt Amos]

On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Alex Barth  wrote:
> ## Proposal
>
> Inspired by successful campaigns like "Intel Inside" and "Fair Trade", this 
> RFC proposes an OpenStreetMap contributor mark for use on OpenStreetMap based 
> maps. The goal of the OSM contributor mark is to be adopted by as many OSM 
> data users as possible and on as many OSM based maps as possible, thus 
> creating more awareness of the value of free and open geographic data.

this sounds like an interesting idea. it's worth noting that the ODbL
requires a textual attribution, and we suggest a link to the
"copyright" page [1] where it is appropriate to the medium. are you
suggesting that the OSM contributor mark would be an additional,
voluntary, on-screen display?

from your examples it seems that you'd consider this mark to be a
replacement for the required textual attribution - is that right?

also, i am confused by the "contributor" part of it - isn't this an
"OSM data user mark"?

> With these goals in mind
>
> - the mark should be compelling and recognizable (i.e. not generic).

i find this hammer-in-teardrop symbol to be very generic, and not very
compelling.

> - it should work off maps in cases where thumbnail maps need to be attributed 
> e.g. in mobile devices
> - the mark should be clearly distinct from common map user interface elements.
> - the mark should link to a page on openstreetmap.org that explains the 
> openness of OSM data and its local, community driven nature.

this sounds like a general "about" page to me. which is fine - we need
a good "about" page, and the example you've given looks good. a few
points i noticed:
 - its very graphically heavy
 - the explanation its trying to provide is mostly off-screen, and (at
least on my display) initially occupies a tiny area in the lower left
of the screen. if this is the important part of the page, rather than
the picture, shouldn't it be more prominent?
 - as ppawel has already pointed out, it's pretty radically and
confusingly differently styled to the rest of the OSM sites.
 - (minor) probably better to link to learnosm than the wiki? seems
rather cruel to subject someone to the wiki when it might be only the
second OSM page they see ;-)

cheers,

matt

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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Paweł Paprota]

On 01/11/2013 03:26 PM, Alex Barth wrote:

http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/  (just a demo domain, this should live
ideally on `openstreetmap.org/contributors`)


Looks good as far as I understand the proposal...

One thing came to me at a quick glance - the new /contributors page does
not have any visual references to the osm.org website styling, there is
no chrome or even OSM logo there. Isn't that going to be confusing to
the user to see such very different page that is part of the website?

Paweł

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