RE: [Texascavers] Re: Digital vs. Print
I'm in the process of pursuing the bulk mail rate/permit for us, Logan, as I plan on continuing to do the newsletter for the foreseeable future. (Sorry to tell y'all that!) I'll let the membership know how it's proceeding in January, but, I'm not stepping foot in the post office until after Christmas! Good point about the back issues, Anyway you or Lee Jay could bring ~12 of the recent issues to the winter meeting at CBSP? A certain vivacious Vice-Chair Elect is hounding me to get her some back issues! Thanks, Mark From: Logan McNatt [mailto:lmcn...@austin.rr.com] Sent: Sun 12/13/2009 7:21 PM To: 'TexasCavers' Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Digital vs. Print I am one of those antiquated bibliophiles who prefers a hard copy of The Texas Caver, but I certainly support the use of electronic copies for all that prefer them. I would be willing to pay the extra cost of printed issues. Questions for Mark: What happened to using the Bulk Mailing Rate? I assume it requires a minimum number of copies, and perhaps we don't meet that? I like the color photos, but how much do they add to the cost of printing compared to the same photos in BW? Just curious; I'm not advocating all BW. Logan (Caretaker of approximately 20,000 back issues of The Texas Caver owned by TSA, most of which are not available electronically, but can be yours for about 25 to 50 cents each. A treasure trove of maps, photos, trip reports, etc.; buy now before they're all gone!) - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Caver Memorial Web Page
I need some feedback on the following two cavers. I can find info from Social Security Death records but I need a little more to go by. These are some names I got with nothing to back up the claims of their passing. Where were they living at time of death? What was the year they died? -- Harvey R. Jackson, of Corpus Christi, NSS 3656 Donald L. Widener, of Dallas, NSS 3224 -- Ron Miller
texascavers Digest 14 Dec 2009 16:31:27 -0000 Issue 913
texascavers Digest 14 Dec 2009 16:31:27 - Issue 913 Topics (messages 12928 through 12947): Re: Teenager, 17, hopes to outdo Shackleton and walk to south pole 12928 by: Chris Vreeland 12934 by: Mark Minton Re: Looking for an internship 12929 by: Mixon Bill Re: Please Become a Digital Online Member 12930 by: Alex Sproul 12931 by: ellie :) 12932 by: Joe Ranzau 12933 by: Lyndon Tiu 12939 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com 12947 by: jranzau.gmail.com Re: Digital vs. Print 12935 by: Logan McNatt 12940 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com Can TSA be trusted with email addresses? 12936 by: Rod Goke 12937 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com 12938 by: Bill Bentley 12942 by: John Brooks 12945 by: Bill Bentley Digital vs. Print 2 12941 by: Gill Edigar Caver Memorial Web Page 12943 by: Ron Miller World's most powerful flaslight 12944 by: Lee H. Skinner TSA, Caver, and Caving 12946 by: Linda Palit Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com To post to the list, e-mail: texascavers@texascavers.com -- ---BeginMessage--- Shackleton gets the short end of the stick when it comes to Antarctic glory. He may not have made the south pole on either of his expeditions (and first as an officer on one of Scott's early expeditions) but unlike Scott, on his first expedition he turned back from the pole when he realized his crew was in danger, and on the second, as a result of his epic heroic open-boat sail to S. Georgia to effect a rescue, not a single life was lost under his leadership. Scott may have made the pole, but his poorly-planned assault ended in tragedy. Far from cursed, I think Shackleton deserves more from history for the strong leadership he showed in keeping his men safe, first of all. Anyone seriously interested in this period of exploration should read Beau Riffenbugh's book Shackleton's Forgotten Expedition -- The Voyage of the Nimrod. It's a fascinating read, if you're into exploration, as I assume most of you out there in Caver-land are. :-) Chris On Dec 12, 2009, at 1:49 PM, Fofo wrote: Oh, that would have been interesting! There would have been web pages on the Shackleton curse. ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- I'm certain that was a typo. Earlier in the article they used almost the same language (in two different paragraphs), saying Shackleton abandoned his attempt to walk to the south pole with 112 miles remaining and Shackleton and three others abandoned their expedition in January 1909 with their food supplies running out. Plus that list of great polar expeditions was chronological. Mark Minton Oh, that would have been interesting! There would have been web pages on the Shackleton curse. There was in fact an expedition with descendants from the Shackleton expedition, but they did reach the pole: http://www.dawn.com/2009/01/19/int6.htm http://www.shackletoncentenary.org/ And here's a TinyUrl address for the Guardian article, since it seems that it was chopped off in some e-mails: http://tinyurl.com/yd5f3fe Take care, - Fofo Stefan Creaser wrote, on 12/12/09 11:06: Are you sure it was a typo, wasn't it one of Shackleton's descendants who gave it a go? Cheers, Stefan -Original Message- From: Fofo [mailto:gonza...@msu.edu] Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 1:02 PM To: texascavers Subject: [Texascavers] Teenager, 17, hopes to outdo Shackleton and walk to south pole Howdy! There's an interesting article in The Guardian. Not related to caves, though, but about an expedition to the South Pole: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/11/katie-walter-south-pole-shackle ton One interesting bit of information is that Shackleton gave it another try earlier this year: Shackleton and two others got to within 112 miles of the south pole in January 2009 before abandoning their attempt with food supplies running short. Wow, you'd think that they would have been better prepared this time! - Fofo (PS: I realize that the Shackleton 2009 thing a typo) You may reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- Forwarded by Mixon: Begin forwarded message: From: Justin Dickens jdick...@alaskapacific.edu List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: December 12, 2009 10:52:17 AM CST To: tenakee...@yahoo.com tenakee...@yahoo.com, carleneall...@hotmail.com carleneall...@hotmail.com, pisarow...@alumni.hamline.edu pisarow...@alumni.hamline.edu , laga...@nmt.edu laga...@nmt.edu, vickie_sie...@yahoo.com vickie_sie...@yahoo.com , edi...@amcs-pubs.org edi...@amcs-pubs.org Subject: Looking for an
RE: [Texascavers] Electronic in the Sky-CAVER JIM
Don't remind me, but it is a nice poem. Fritz -Original Message- From: Preston Forsythe [mailto:pns_...@bellsouth.net] Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 7:16 AM To: Cavers Texas; ellie :); Lyndon Tiu Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Electronic in the Sky-CAVER JIM Once all existing members die, the Texas Caver will become all electronic. Great plan Ellie, you're a genius! -- Lyndon Tiu - Here is another adaptation of an old KY-Illinois coal miner poem put to caving. With apologies to Vachel who wrote, Miner Jim, and Bobby who published the poem. Caver Jim 1970: Caver Jim, you know him, Tall and straight, body strong; Before the dawn, he'll be gone, To walk four miles, cave all day long. 1980: Caver Jim, you know him, Day's caving now takes its toll; Step much slower, head hangs lower, After a day of caving. 1990: Caver Jim, you know him, It's time he faced the truth: What he can't do, a young man can; Those days have claimed his youth. 2000: Caver Jim, you know him, 'Fore they took him away; Caver Jim, you knew him; They buried him today. --- Happy Caving Holidays, Preston in Outer Browder, KY - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Sale on Digital Laser Range Finder - Today only
(reply copy to cavers, in case anyone else is interested, such as for recon work). Linda, The Bosch is good for short stuff, up to 160' or so. The Disto is interesting and accurate. I still have mine and don't use it because of its size -- I'm certainly willing to sell it for really cheap (case, attachments, and all), if anyone's interested. It's just too big, heavy, difficult to use, and of course is (was) really expensive. For long boreholes it can't be beat, as long as you have plenty of porters carrying equipment. Otherwise, take shorter readings. We previously used a Bushnell Yardage Pro 400 (20-400 yds) and liked it, but alas, it's hiding somewhere in the field trying to become fertilizer or a historic artifact. We replaced that with the Bushnell Yardage Pro 1000 (20-1000 yds) and like it very much. Accuracy is about +/- 18. It's now our long-distance backup. So, we now use a Bushnell Yardage Pro Scout, a much smaller, uni-ocular (if that's a word, monocular?) unit that practically fits in your pocket (not a T-shirt), with a range of 10-700 yds. I see now that Amazon has lots of different Yardage Pro's, mostly around $240 (a fraction of a Disto), but you can check the Bushnell site for details. The Bushnell Scout is essentially all I use now, even for rough interior mapping of archeological sites (+/- 18 is okay for rough mapping of 40 acres worth of tipi rings). For caving, these things would be used for reconnaissance, not detailed cave mapping (which is why God invented the Bosch unit). John - Original Message - From: Linda Palit To: 'John Greer' Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:59 AM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Sale on Digital Laser Range Finder - Today only What about longer range ? or what do you mean by short range. I ordered one, and no gripes with the great price. I just wanted the benefit of your testing. I’ve used a disto for long distances in big straight caves with great results, and just comparing. Thanks. Linda From: John Greer [mailto:jgr...@greerservices.com] Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 5:45 PM To: 'texascavers list' Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Sale on Digital Laser Range Finder - Today only For those who don't have info on the Bosch DLR165K -- BoschTools.com -- see below (if it comes through). We've tried several but still like these best for short range. Looking around the web, it appears that Amazon (Prime=no shipping charge) is a great price = 64.99. ** Look at WarehouseDeals.com (Amazon) -- 60.99 + free shipping. Listed as used because of minor box damage. New unit. (good description too). John
[Texascavers] Fwd: 15th ICS - proceedings corrections
Forwarded by Mixon: Begin forwarded message: From: ICS 2009 eList secret...@ics2009.us List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: December 13, 2009 8:57:15 PM CST To: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu Subject: 15th ICS - proceedings corrections Dear Friends, Last month I wrote that the proceedings of the 15th International Congress of Speleology (ICS) were posted as three PDFs on the Karst Information Portal (KIP) at http://www.lib.usf.edu/karst-test/SPT--BrowseResources.php?ParentId=367 We have received some corrections to the proceedings and they are now listed in some Errata pages near the front of the three volumes. We apologize for any errors we missed or accidentally caused. Remember, the files for each of the three volumes are large: 86, 154, and 156 Mb. Also as a reminder, you can buy printed copies of the ICS proceedings, guidebook, and other publications from the NSS Bookstore at http://nssbookstore.org/index.php?mode=storesubmode=showitemitemnumber=04-0106-2378 at a 20% discount until 31 December 2009. George George Veni, Ph.D. Chairman, 15th International Congress of Speleology Vice President of Administration, International Union of Speleology Executive Director, U.S. National Cave and Karst Research Institute You have received this message because you are subscribed to the 2009 ICS eList. To unsubscribe, please visit: http://ics2009mail.nfshost.com/pommo/user/ May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] World's most powerful flaslight
http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/lights/cd85/?cpg=120H - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Re: [NMCAVER] World's most powerful flaslight
Hi Lee, Thanks for the link, but that's old news because you already sent the same info nearly 2 years ago. I prefer this LED light which should last a bit longer: http://elektrolumen s.com/FireSword/ FireSword- IV.html -Kip From: Lee H. Skinner skin...@thuntek.net To: Cave Diggers cavedigg...@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, January 28, 2008 2:37:18 PM Subject: [CaveDiggers] World's brightest and most powerful flashlight See articles about The Torch at: http://www.i4u. com/article14324 .html and http://www.engadget .com/2008/ 01/28/the- torch-why- illuminate- when-you- can-incinerate/ From: Lee H. Skinner skin...@thuntek.net To: Cave Diggers cavedigg...@yahoogroups.com; texascavers list texascavers@texascavers.com; nmcaver list nmca...@caver.net; Internal Communications of the Sandia Grotto sandiagro...@caver.net Sent: Mon, December 14, 2009 7:57:20 AM Subject: [NMCAVER] World's most powerful flaslight http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/lights/cd85/?cpg=120H ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
CONFIRM subscribe to texascavers@texascavers.com
Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the texascavers@texascavers.com mailing list. I'm working for my owner, who can be reached at texascavers-ow...@texascavers.com. I respectfully request your permission to add caveryt.59...@gmail.com to the subscribers of the texascavers mailing list. This request either came from you, or it has already been verified by the potential subscriber. To confirm, please send an empty reply to this address: texascavers-tc.1260799147.nmbonjicijigkgiielpo-caveryt.59162=gmail@texascavers.com Usually, this happens when you just hit the reply button. If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into the To: field of a new message. If you don't approve, simply ignore this message. Thank you for your help! --- Administrative commands for the texascavers list --- I can handle administrative requests automatically. Please do not send them to the list address! Instead, send your message to the correct command address: For help and a description of available commands, send a message to: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com To subscribe to the list, send a message to: texascavers-subscr...@texascavers.com To remove your address from the list, just send a message to the address in the ``List-Unsubscribe'' header of any list message. If you haven't changed addresses since subscribing, you can also send a message to: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For addition or removal of addresses, I'll send a confirmation message to that address. When you receive it, simply reply to it to complete the transaction. If you need to get in touch with the human owner of this list, please send a message to: texascavers-ow...@texascavers.com Please include a FORWARDED list message with ALL HEADERS intact to make it easier to help you. --- Enclosed is a copy of the request I received. Return-Path: caveryt.59...@gmail.com Received: (qmail 11395 invoked by uid 89); 14 Dec 2009 13:59:07 - Received: from unknown (HELO mail-yw0-f173.google.com) (209.85.211.173) by 192.168.254.10 with SMTP; 14 Dec 2009 13:59:07 - Received: by ywh3 with SMTP id 3so3091411ywh.22 for texascavers-sc.1260798476.idcoelbcjihogkbinbpp-caveryt.59162=gmail@texascavers.com; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 05:59:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=YyELM+45K/fircBz570iLwqFM6Gq8JPDs0g7XZ5+9WY=; b=tD5e8tbJ2wlv9MkkyEZPudui6t+cSSSEYoR0AKxgLZbIaqjkarsqw6GAykvlQqf98X yShIUeukAcWLZ2Pdo3P9j8RcRPJ+jWfTp0yEPU0LwxcYLpy92kJAfLH91sBFAFV/0LOS awqIj+kPhek3CLe4LBAeopS6NYRSZ3em2KeMU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=Do+Bi2GllKs4djxN3CDQHhuB4JHexQI3Y49nK/ABiKcgA4dYZ/OVbjdMVOjheFm/gI HAFYK2usg5A5Ir8DGovQX7Y8LYZPMvGKZsRnNaW/sMOfdTXqeab9jNz6DpZsEA/YuKhD fggFveyZzzkVy0UVtYW7nvcYeOL6CPyq8bftE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.33.24 with SMTP id l24mr1046511ybj.41.1260799146766; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 05:59:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: 1260798476.11189.ez...@texascavers.com References: 1260798476.11189.ez...@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 07:59:06 -0600 Message-ID: 687432ac0912140559v833199jf4e95de1d73bd...@mail.gmail.com Subject: Re: confirm subscribe to texascavers@texascavers.com From: Charlie Averyt caveryt.59...@gmail.com To: texascavers-sc.1260798476.idcoelbcjihogkbinbpp-caveryt.59162=gmail@texascavers.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cdf1c0646b42f047ab0adec --000e0cdf1c0646b42f047ab0adec Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:47 AM, texascavers-h...@texascavers.com wrote: Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the texascavers@texascavers.com mailing list. I'm working for my owner, who can be reached at texascavers-ow...@texascavers.com. To confirm that you would like caveryt.59...@gmail.com added to the texascavers mailing list, please send an empty reply to this address: texascavers-sc.1260798476.idcoelbcjihogkbinbpp-caveryt.59162=gmail.com@ texascavers.com Usually, this happens when you just hit the reply button. If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into the To: field of a new message. This confirmation serves two purposes. First, it verifies that I am able to get mail through to you. Second, it protects you in case someone forges a subscription request in your name. Some mail programs are broken and cannot handle long addresses. If you cannot reply to this request, instead send a message to texascavers-requ...@texascavers.com and put the entire address listed above into the Subject: line. --- Administrative
Re: CONFIRM subscribe to texascavers@texascavers.com
On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:59 AM, texascavers-h...@texascavers.com wrote: Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the texascavers@texascavers.com mailing list. I'm working for my owner, who can be reached at texascavers-ow...@texascavers.com. I respectfully request your permission to add caveryt.59...@gmail.com to the subscribers of the texascavers mailing list. This request either came from you, or it has already been verified by the potential subscriber. To confirm, please send an empty reply to this address: texascavers-tc.1260799147.nmbonjicijigkgiielpo-caveryt.59162=gmail@texascavers.com Usually, this happens when you just hit the reply button. If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into the To: field of a new message. If you don't approve, simply ignore this message. Thank you for your help! --- Administrative commands for the texascavers list --- I can handle administrative requests automatically. Please do not send them to the list address! Instead, send your message to the correct command address: For help and a description of available commands, send a message to: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com To subscribe to the list, send a message to: texascavers-subscr...@texascavers.com To remove your address from the list, just send a message to the address in the ``List-Unsubscribe'' header of any list message. If you haven't changed addresses since subscribing, you can also send a message to: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For addition or removal of addresses, I'll send a confirmation message to that address. When you receive it, simply reply to it to complete the transaction. If you need to get in touch with the human owner of this list, please send a message to: texascavers-ow...@texascavers.com Please include a FORWARDED list message with ALL HEADERS intact to make it easier to help you. --- Enclosed is a copy of the request I received. Return-Path: caveryt.59...@gmail.com Received: (qmail 11395 invoked by uid 89); 14 Dec 2009 13:59:07 - Received: from unknown (HELO mail-yw0-f173.google.com) (209.85.211.173) by 192.168.254.10 with SMTP; 14 Dec 2009 13:59:07 - Received: by ywh3 with SMTP id 3so3091411ywh.22 for texascavers-sc.1260798476.idcoelbcjihogkbinbpp-caveryt.59162=gmail@texascavers.com; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 05:59:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=YyELM+45K/fircBz570iLwqFM6Gq8JPDs0g7XZ5+9WY=; b=tD5e8tbJ2wlv9MkkyEZPudui6t+cSSSEYoR0AKxgLZbIaqjkarsqw6GAykvlQqf98X yShIUeukAcWLZ2Pdo3P9j8RcRPJ+jWfTp0yEPU0LwxcYLpy92kJAfLH91sBFAFV/0LOS awqIj+kPhek3CLe4LBAeopS6NYRSZ3em2KeMU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=Do+Bi2GllKs4djxN3CDQHhuB4JHexQI3Y49nK/ABiKcgA4dYZ/OVbjdMVOjheFm/gI HAFYK2usg5A5Ir8DGovQX7Y8LYZPMvGKZsRnNaW/sMOfdTXqeab9jNz6DpZsEA/YuKhD fggFveyZzzkVy0UVtYW7nvcYeOL6CPyq8bftE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.33.24 with SMTP id l24mr1046511ybj.41.1260799146766; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 05:59:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: 1260798476.11189.ez...@texascavers.com References: 1260798476.11189.ez...@texascavers.com Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 07:59:06 -0600 Message-ID: 687432ac0912140559v833199jf4e95de1d73bd...@mail.gmail.com Subject: Re: confirm subscribe to texascavers@texascavers.com From: Charlie Averyt caveryt.59...@gmail.com To: texascavers-sc.1260798476.idcoelbcjihogkbinbpp-caveryt.59162=gmail@texascavers.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cdf1c0646b42f047ab0adec --000e0cdf1c0646b42f047ab0adec Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:47 AM, texascavers-h...@texascavers.com wrote: Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the texascavers@texascavers.com mailing list. I'm working for my owner, who can be reached at texascavers-ow...@texascavers.com. To confirm that you would like caveryt.59...@gmail.com added to the texascavers mailing list, please send an empty reply to this address: texascavers-sc.1260798476.idcoelbcjihogkbinbpp-caveryt.59162=gmail.com@ texascavers.com Usually, this happens when you just hit the reply button. If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into the To: field of a new message. This confirmation serves two purposes. First, it verifies that I am able to get mail through to you. Second, it protects you in case someone forges a subscription request in your name. Some mail programs are broken and cannot handle long addresses. If you cannot reply to this request, instead send a message to texascavers-requ...@texascavers.com and
texascavers Digest 14 Dec 2009 19:14:44 -0000 Issue 914
texascavers Digest 14 Dec 2009 19:14:44 - Issue 914 Topics (messages 12948 through 12958): Electronic media 12948 by: Geary Schindel 12950 by: mminton.caver.net Re: Please Become a Digital Online Member 12949 by: Fritz Holt 12951 by: Fritz Holt 12953 by: Karen Perry 12958 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com Re: Electronic in the Sky-CAVER JIM 12952 by: Fritz Holt Re: Sale on Digital Laser Range Finder - Today only 12954 by: John Greer TSA this and that 12955 by: Mixon Bill Re: 15th ICS - proceedings corrections 12956 by: Mixon Bill Re: [NMCAVER] World's most powerful flaslight 12957 by: Kip Baumann Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com To post to the list, e-mail: texascavers@texascavers.com -- ---BeginMessage--- There appear to be a number of problems with the electronic media that folks are still wrestling with. This is really more an issue for university libraries and such but many professional journals are going on line and are only available through a subscription service. If a college or university subscribed to a journal in print form, it would become part of their collection and available as a hard copy to anyone that wanted to view it. However, now that some journals are only available on line through a subscription, they are only available if you pay for the service. Some schools spend $100,000 or more to subscribe each year to the journal services and most won't let you pick and choose which ones you want - you have to buy their package. And if you don't renew, you lose access to all the journals, not just the year you didn't buy. In addition, we assume that the electronic media is secure but to be honest, this technology is fairly new and relatively untested. I do know that I can't read the disc containing my Thesis because I wrote it on a TRS 80 using a word star program. The only surviving copies are paper (not that it was that important a work). However books have survived for hundreds of years (assuming they are printed on good paper) and minus a few book burnings. The world of research, and library science, is being turned on its head as we change media type. Search engines are very powerful and have greatly added in doing research. The flip side is that it could, in theory, disappear overnight. FYI, Geary . ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- Geary brings up interesting points about libraries going to digital journal subscriptions. I have seen this as a potential problem ever since it first occurred since it directly affected my profession (chemist). There are a few journals that allow an institution to keep access to their past subscribed volumes even if they stop subscribing, but most do not and thus as Geary said, the library ends up with no collection if they ever stop. That seems patently unfair and I'm surprised libraries have agreed to those terms. Another problem is that when the library suffers a power failure or worse, when the journal's server goes down, no one has access to their material. At least with a paper copy you could read it with a flashlight during a power failure. I often made printed copies of articles because I would need to take the paper to the lab in order to follow a procedure, but of course I would do that with print journals as well. Mark Minton Quoting Geary Schindel gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org: There appear to be a number of problems with the electronic media that folks are still wrestling with. This is really more an issue for university libraries and such but many professional journals are going on line and are only available through a subscription service. If a college or university subscribed to a journal in print form, it would become part of their collection and available as a hard copy to anyone that wanted to view it. However, now that some journals are only available on line through a subscription, they are only available if you pay for the service. Some schools spend $100,000 or more to subscribe each year to the journal services and most won't let you pick and choose which ones you want - you have to buy their package. And if you don't renew, you lose access to all the journals, not just the year you didn't buy. In addition, we assume that the electronic media is secure but to be honest, this technology is fairly new and relatively untested. I do know that I can't read the disc containing my Thesis because I wrote it on a TRS 80 using a word star program. The only surviving copies are paper (not that it was that important a work). However books have survived for hundreds of
RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member of the TSA and Save My Sanity - DANGER! Rant Mode Fully On! LONG
No problem, Charles. (I didn't say this), but, the Winter meeting may be a good time to bring this up, as most of the chronologically challenged cavers don't make it out to this meeting. (Once again, I didn't say this). 8^) Mark From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Fri 12/11/2009 3:45 PM To: Alman, Mark @ IRP Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member of the TSA and Save My Sanity - DANGER! Rant Mode Fully On! LONG I told you that I was going to bring this up again back after the Spring TSA meeting. Many people feel the same way, they just are afraid to speak up, for fear of the wrath of a few of the older members. I'll continue to speak my mind :) Charles On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 3:31 PM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Let's not go down that road again, Charles. The TC is coming being issued within our budget and we still have funds left over for additional activities. My point in my rant was to liven up CaveTex (mission accomplished) and to encourage more to go digital. I'm already seeing results of this, as well. Those that want a hard copy aren't going to break the bank, but, please folks, at least think about going digital. While I never keep a copy of the newsletter for myself, preferring and having them in digital format, there is a unique thrill and source of pride when they do arrive from the printer and I open the box for the first time and look at the finished product and say to myself, Damn, that issue looks good!. Done patting myself on the back! Mark -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 2:51 PM To: Pete Lindsley Cc: TexasCavers; Stefan Creaser Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member of the TSA and Save My Sanity - DANGER! Rant Mode Fully On! LONG You know, we can easily put this to a vote at the next meeting :) Charles
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member of the TSA and Save My Sanity - DANGER! Rant Mode Fully On! LONG
Thank that little birdy for the tidbit :) Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:46 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: No problem, Charles. (I didn't say this), but, the Winter meeting may be a good time to bring this up, as most of the chronologically challenged cavers don't make it out to this meeting. (Once again, I didn't say this). 8^) Mark From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Fri 12/11/2009 3:45 PM To: Alman, Mark @ IRP Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member of the TSA and Save My Sanity - DANGER! Rant Mode Fully On! LONG I told you that I was going to bring this up again back after the Spring TSA meeting. Many people feel the same way, they just are afraid to speak up, for fear of the wrath of a few of the older members. I'll continue to speak my mind :) Charles On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 3:31 PM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Let's not go down that road again, Charles. The TC is coming being issued within our budget and we still have funds left over for additional activities. My point in my rant was to liven up CaveTex (mission accomplished) and to encourage more to go digital. I'm already seeing results of this, as well. Those that want a hard copy aren't going to break the bank, but, please folks, at least think about going digital. While I never keep a copy of the newsletter for myself, preferring and having them in digital format, there is a unique thrill and source of pride when they do arrive from the printer and I open the box for the first time and look at the finished product and say to myself, Damn, that issue looks good!. Done patting myself on the back! Mark -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 2:51 PM To: Pete Lindsley Cc: TexasCavers; Stefan Creaser Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member of the TSA and Save My Sanity - DANGER! Rant Mode Fully On! LONG You know, we can easily put this to a vote at the next meeting :) Charles
[Texascavers] Re: Electronic media
Geary brings up interesting points about libraries going to digital journal subscriptions. I have seen this as a potential problem ever since it first occurred since it directly affected my profession (chemist). There are a few journals that allow an institution to keep access to their past subscribed volumes even if they stop subscribing, but most do not and thus as Geary said, the library ends up with no collection if they ever stop. That seems patently unfair and I'm surprised libraries have agreed to those terms. Another problem is that when the library suffers a power failure or worse, when the journal's server goes down, no one has access to their material. At least with a paper copy you could read it with a flashlight during a power failure. I often made printed copies of articles because I would need to take the paper to the lab in order to follow a procedure, but of course I would do that with print journals as well. Mark Minton Quoting Geary Schindel gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org: There appear to be a number of problems with the electronic media that folks are still wrestling with. This is really more an issue for university libraries and such but many professional journals are going on line and are only available through a subscription service. If a college or university subscribed to a journal in print form, it would become part of their collection and available as a hard copy to anyone that wanted to view it. However, now that some journals are only available on line through a subscription, they are only available if you pay for the service. Some schools spend $100,000 or more to subscribe each year to the journal services and most won't let you pick and choose which ones you want - you have to buy their package. And if you don't renew, you lose access to all the journals, not just the year you didn't buy. In addition, we assume that the electronic media is secure but to be honest, this technology is fairly new and relatively untested. I do know that I can't read the disc containing my Thesis because I wrote it on a TRS 80 using a word star program. The only surviving copies are paper (not that it was that important a work). However books have survived for hundreds of years (assuming they are printed on good paper) and minus a few book burnings. The world of research, and library science, is being turned on its head as we change media type. Search engines are very powerful and have greatly added in doing research. The flip side is that it could, in theory, disappear overnight. FYI, Geary - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Electronic media
Talk to an archivist. All the digital nightmares are multiplied with the evolving technology, and the potential of losing information because it is not in a platform that is still used. Perhaps this really is the third revolution, agricultural revolution, industrial revolution and communications revolution or whatever historical moniker this era ends up with, if it is indeed that significant. -Original Message- From: mmin...@caver.net [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:12 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Electronic media Geary brings up interesting points about libraries going to digital journal subscriptions. I have seen this as a potential problem ever since it first occurred since it directly affected my profession (chemist). There are a few journals that allow an institution to keep access to their past subscribed volumes even if they stop subscribing, but most do not and thus as Geary said, the library ends up with no collection if they ever stop. That seems patently unfair and I'm surprised libraries have agreed to those terms. Another problem is that when the library suffers a power failure or worse, when the journal's server goes down, no one has access to their material. At least with a paper copy you could read it with a flashlight during a power failure. I often made printed copies of articles because I would need to take the paper to the lab in order to follow a procedure, but of course I would do that with print journals as well. Mark Minton Quoting Geary Schindel gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org: There appear to be a number of problems with the electronic media that folks are still wrestling with. This is really more an issue for university libraries and such but many professional journals are going on line and are only available through a subscription service. If a college or university subscribed to a journal in print form, it would become part of their collection and available as a hard copy to anyone that wanted to view it. However, now that some journals are only available on line through a subscription, they are only available if you pay for the service. Some schools spend $100,000 or more to subscribe each year to the journal services and most won't let you pick and choose which ones you want - you have to buy their package. And if you don't renew, you lose access to all the journals, not just the year you didn't buy. In addition, we assume that the electronic media is secure but to be honest, this technology is fairly new and relatively untested. I do know that I can't read the disc containing my Thesis because I wrote it on a TRS 80 using a word star program. The only surviving copies are paper (not that it was that important a work). However books have survived for hundreds of years (assuming they are printed on good paper) and minus a few book burnings. The world of research, and library science, is being turned on its head as we change media type. Search engines are very powerful and have greatly added in doing research. The flip side is that it could, in theory, disappear overnight. FYI, Geary - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] TSA this and that
Some people just need a better e-mail service. My e-mail addresses are all over the place, and I get about two spam messages a week. If you insist on running your own server, you could still use some other place for your e-mail address that has a decent spam filter. And I wouldn't worry about your e-mail address being on the TSA web site, password-protected or not. At least one of your friends probably has something infecting his computer that has sent off his address book to someplace in Russia or Nigeria anyway. Fine with me if the TSA wants to have different dues depending on how one receives the Texas Caver. But the question should be how large a discount you get if you don't want a paper copy, not how much more you pay for one.--Mixon May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
But the question should be how large a discount you get if you don't want a paper copy, not how much more you pay for one.--Mixon Well put and amen! --Original Message-- From: Mixon Bill To: Cavers Texas Subject: [Texascavers] TSA this and that Sent: Dec 14, 2009 12:51 PM Some people just need a better e-mail service. My e-mail addresses are all over the place, and I get about two spam messages a week. If you insist on running your own server, you could still use some other place for your e-mail address that has a decent spam filter. And I wouldn't worry about your e-mail address being on the TSA web site, password-protected or not. At least one of your friends probably has something infecting his computer that has sent off his address book to someplace in Russia or Nigeria anyway. Fine with me if the TSA wants to have different dues depending on how one receives the Texas Caver. But the question should be how large a discount you get if you don't want a paper copy, not how much more you pay for one.--Mixon May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com Sent via BlackBerry by ATT
Re: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
Excellent Q! Since the majority of the dues collected, at least in the past, were intended to cover publication/postage cost...Maybe we need to look at the cost of producing an average Caver, figure in the mailing cost, multiple by 12, then figure the difference in dues and come up with a workable formula to make as many as possible, as happy as possible. I would, for one, like to know what the cost of the Caver, per issue really is. Let's do the math before we all are insulting each other more. (Right Gil? ...the USA comment) If the TSA wishes to give $$$ away to noble causes, then they can do fund raisers for specific donations, just like grottos the NSS. Karen --- On Mon, 12/14/09, ke...@sbcglobal.net ke...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: ke...@sbcglobal.net ke...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA this and that To: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com, Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Monday, December 14, 2009, 1:19 PM But the question should be how large a discount you get if you don't want a paper copy, not how much more you pay for one.--Mixon Well put and amen! --Original Message-- From: Mixon Bill To: Cavers Texas Subject: [Texascavers] TSA this and that Sent: Dec 14, 2009 12:51 PM Some people just need a better e-mail service. My e-mail addresses are all over the place, and I get about two spam messages a week. If you insist on running your own server, you could still use some other place for your e-mail address that has a decent spam filter. And I wouldn't worry about your e-mail address being on the TSA web site, password-protected or not. At least one of your friends probably has something infecting his computer that has sent off his address book to someplace in Russia or Nigeria anyway. Fine with me if the TSA wants to have different dues depending on how one receives the Texas Caver. But the question should be how large a discount you get if you don't want a paper copy, not how much more you pay for one.--Mixon May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com Sent via BlackBerry by ATT
RE: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
This should be easy enough, Karen, but there is one issue: We would have to agree on exactly how many pages each issue should/will be in order to facilitate costs. This is my fault, because each issues varies in page count, depending on how much material I receive. The 1st quarter TC was 24 pages. The 2nd quarter TC was 32 pages. The 3 quarter Mega ICS issue was 64 (!) pages. (definitely not typical). This past issue was 28 pages. If the damn editor could make up his mind (and reliably get submissions) it would be easier to calculate. What size fits y'all? Also, there's only four issues a year, not 12. Mark From: Karen Perry [mailto:txcavem...@yahoo.com] Sent: Mon 12/14/2009 2:03 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA this and that Excellent Q! Since the majority of the dues collected, at least in the past, were intended to cover publication/postage cost...Maybe we need to look at the cost of producing an average Caver, figure in the mailing cost, multiple by 12, then figure the difference in dues and come up with a workable formula to make as many as possible, as happy as possible. I would, for one, like to know what the cost of the Caver, per issue really is. Let's do the math before we all are insulting each other more. (Right Gil? ...the USA comment) If the TSA wishes to give $$$ away to noble causes, then they can do fund raisers for specific donations, just like grottos the NSS. Karen
RE: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
I have been admonished in the past for daring to suggest a TSA dues increase and was reminded that we are a not for profit organization. I'm not sure that I know the definition but it would seem that there would have to be a profit or sizable donations in order to purchase real estate for whatever cause. But, I'm not looking for a lesson in the law. With the questions concerning a possible reduction in TSA dues you would think that many cavers didn't know where the money was coming from for their next caving light. Since it is impossible to calculate to the dollar what expenses will be, there is nothing wrong with having a small surplus at the end of the year. At $20.00, any surplus would be small. Fritz From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:34 PM To: Karen Perry; texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] TSA this and that This should be easy enough, Karen, but there is one issue: We would have to agree on exactly how many pages each issue should/will be in order to facilitate costs. This is my fault, because each issues varies in page count, depending on how much material I receive. The 1st quarter TC was 24 pages. The 2nd quarter TC was 32 pages. The 3 quarter Mega ICS issue was 64 (!) pages. (definitely not typical). This past issue was 28 pages. If the damn editor could make up his mind (and reliably get submissions) it would be easier to calculate. What size fits y'all? Also, there's only four issues a year, not 12. Mark From: Karen Perry [mailto:txcavem...@yahoo.com] Sent: Mon 12/14/2009 2:03 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA this and that Excellent Q! Since the majority of the dues collected, at least in the past, were intended to cover publication/postage cost...Maybe we need to look at the cost of producing an average Caver, figure in the mailing cost, multiple by 12, then figure the difference in dues and come up with a workable formula to make as many as possible, as happy as possible. I would, for one, like to know what the cost of the Caver, per issue really is. Let's do the math before we all are insulting each other more. (Right Gil? ...the USA comment) If the TSA wishes to give $$$ away to noble causes, then they can do fund raisers for specific donations, just like grottos the NSS. Karen
RE: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
As a national director of a large, 100 year old (as of Feb. 8, 2010) non-profit corporation, I can tell you that you budget to end the year in the black, which means bringing in more money than you spend. We raise dues every few years, and that is because costs increase. When I started my career 30 years ago membership dues were $2.00 per year. Now they're $12. We don't call it profit at the end of the year, we call it surplus, which is then shown in the accounting as cash reserves. Bill Steele Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: I have been admonished in the past for daring to suggest a TSA dues increase and was reminded that we are a not for profit organization. I'm not sure that I know the definition but it would seem that there would have to be a profit or sizable donations in order to purchase real estate for whatever cause. But, I'm not looking for a lesson in the law. With the questions concerning a possible reduction in TSA dues you would think that many cavers didn't know where the money was coming from for their next caving light. Since it is impossible to calculate to the dollar what expenses will be, there is nothing wrong with having a small surplus at the end of the year. At $20.00, any surplus would be small. Fritz From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:34 PM To: Karen Perry; texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] TSA this and that This should be easy enough, Karen, but there is one issue: We would have to agree on exactly how many pages each issue should/will be in order to facilitate costs. This is my fault, because each issues varies in page count, depending on how much material I receive. The 1st quarter TC was 24 pages. The 2nd quarter TC was 32 pages. The 3 quarter Mega ICS issue was 64 (!) pages. (definitely not typical). This past issue was 28 pages. If the damn editor could make up his mind (and reliably get submissions) it would be easier to calculate. What size fits y'all? Also, there's only four issues a year, not 12. Mark From: Karen Perry [mailto:txcavem...@yahoo.com] Sent: Mon 12/14/2009 2:03 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA this and that Excellent Q! Since the majority of the dues collected, at least in the past, were intended to cover publication/postage cost...Maybe we need to look at the cost of producing an average Caver, figure in the mailing cost, multiple by 12, then figure the difference in dues and come up with a workable formula to make as many as possible, as happy as possible. I would, for one, like to know what the cost of the Caver, per issue really is. Let's do the math before we all are insulting each other more. (Right Gil? ...the USA comment) If the TSA wishes to give $$$ away to noble causes, then they can do fund raisers for specific donations, just like grottos the NSS. Karen - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water
RE: Clean Water Action A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called 'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean water is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the world it would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks from folks with good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to keep up with every environmental interest group that comes along. I gave them a few bucks and signed their petition and filled out a personal data card. A few days ago I got a phone call from them asking for a pretty good slug of money. I asked for more information. A letter followed but with nebulous details. Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with SOS, the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that some of our cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their good work? Etc, etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them, but I've never heard of them before and want a better idea of who they are and what they really do. --Ediger
RE: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water
Clean Water Action has been working in the Austin and San Antonio areas since at least the mid-1980s. They have worked to lobby government and agencies, and work cooperatively with other green groups to prevent water degradation. I haven't seen them much in the past 10 years and don't know if the organization crashed and is now recovering or if it simply got diverted to other projects in other areas. George From: bgillegi...@gmail.com [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill Edigar Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:39 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water RE: Clean Water Action A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called 'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean water is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the world it would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks from folks with good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to keep up with every environmental interest group that comes along. I gave them a few bucks and signed their petition and filled out a personal data card. A few days ago I got a phone call from them asking for a pretty good slug of money. I asked for more information. A letter followed but with nebulous details. Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with SOS, the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that some of our cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their good work? Etc, etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them, but I've never heard of them before and want a better idea of who they are and what they really do. --Ediger
RE: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water
I sent Annalisa Peace a email about Clean Water Action and this is here response. Geary Dear Geary, Yes, they are a national organization with an office in Austin. They hire canvassers to solicit donations in San Antonio, but they do not get involved in any local issues. CWA used to be a member group of AGUA (when AGUA was structured that way) but have not joined GEAA. They do do good work on the national level. So, I guess giving would be based on whether the donor is interested in local or national action. If someone is a caver, they might want to donate to GEAA or SOS on the water front, as we are actively involved in issues of mutual interest. Hope that answers your question. Annalisa Peace Executive Director Greater Edwards Aquifer Alliance 210-320-6294 www.aquiferalliance.orghttp://www.aquiferalliance.org/ From: bgillegi...@gmail.com [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill Edigar Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 1:39 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water RE: Clean Water Action A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called 'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean water is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the world it would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks from folks with good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to keep up with every environmental interest group that comes along. I gave them a few bucks and signed their petition and filled out a personal data card. A few days ago I got a phone call from them asking for a pretty good slug of money. I asked for more information. A letter followed but with nebulous details. Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with SOS, the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that some of our cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their good work? Etc, etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them, but I've never heard of them before and want a better idea of who they are and what they really do. --Ediger
RE: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water
This lot sound like the TSA/TCMA/TCC/TCR/etc. ;-) United against the common enemy :-) Cheers, Stefan From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org] Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 4:23 PM To: Gill Edigar; texascavers@texascavers.com Cc: Annalisa Peace Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water I sent Annalisa Peace a email about Clean Water Action and this is here response. Geary Dear Geary, Yes, they are a national organization with an office in Austin. They hire canvassers to solicit donations in San Antonio, but they do not get involved in any local issues. CWA used to be a member group of AGUA (when AGUA was structured that way) but have not joined GEAA. They do do good work on the national level. So, I guess giving would be based on whether the donor is interested in local or national action. If someone is a caver, they might want to donate to GEAA or SOS on the water front, as we are actively involved in issues of mutual interest. Hope that answers your question. Annalisa Peace Executive Director Greater Edwards Aquifer Alliance 210-320-6294 www.aquiferalliance.org http://www.aquiferalliance.org/ From: bgillegi...@gmail.com [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill Edigar Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 1:39 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water RE: Clean Water Action A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called 'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean water is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the world it would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks from folks with good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to keep up with every environmental interest group that comes along. I gave them a few bucks and signed their petition and filled out a personal data card. A few days ago I got a phone call from them asking for a pretty good slug of money. I asked for more information. A letter followed but with nebulous details. Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with SOS, the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that some of our cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their good work? Etc, etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them, but I've never heard of them before and want a better idea of who they are and what they really do. --Ediger -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
texascavers Digest 14 Dec 2009 22:35:24 -0000 Issue 915
texascavers Digest 14 Dec 2009 22:35:24 - Issue 915 Topics (messages 12959 through 12970): Re: TSA this and that 12959 by: kego3.sbcglobal.net 12963 by: Karen Perry 12966 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com 12967 by: Fritz Holt 12969 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com Re: Please Become a Digital Online Member 12960 by: Charles Goldsmith Re: Digital vs. Print 2 12961 by: Charles Goldsmith Change of Subject--Clean Water 12962 by: Gill Edigar 12965 by: George Veni 12968 by: Geary Schindel 12970 by: Stefan Creaser Re: Electronic media 12964 by: Linda Palit Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com To post to the list, e-mail: texascavers@texascavers.com -- ---BeginMessage--- But the question should be how large a discount you get if you don't want a paper copy, not how much more you pay for one.--Mixon Well put and amen! --Original Message-- From: Mixon Bill To: Cavers Texas Subject: [Texascavers] TSA this and that Sent: Dec 14, 2009 12:51 PM Some people just need a better e-mail service. My e-mail addresses are all over the place, and I get about two spam messages a week. If you insist on running your own server, you could still use some other place for your e-mail address that has a decent spam filter. And I wouldn't worry about your e-mail address being on the TSA web site, password-protected or not. At least one of your friends probably has something infecting his computer that has sent off his address book to someplace in Russia or Nigeria anyway. Fine with me if the TSA wants to have different dues depending on how one receives the Texas Caver. But the question should be how large a discount you get if you don't want a paper copy, not how much more you pay for one.--Mixon May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com Sent via BlackBerry by ATT---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- Excellent Q! Since the majority of the dues collected, at least in the past, were intended to cover publication/postage cost...Maybe we need to look at the cost of producing an average Caver, figure in the mailing cost, multiple by 12, then figure the difference in dues and come up with a workable formula to make as many as possible, as happy as possible. I would, for one, like to know what the cost of the Caver, per issue really is. Let's do the math before we all are insulting each other more. (Right Gil? ...the USA comment) If the TSA wishes to give $$$ away to noble causes, then they can do fund raisers for specific donations, just like grottos the NSS. Karen --- On Mon, 12/14/09, ke...@sbcglobal.net ke...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: ke...@sbcglobal.net ke...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA this and that To: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com, Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Monday, December 14, 2009, 1:19 PM But the question should be how large a discount you get if you don't want a paper copy, not how much more you pay for one.--Mixon Well put and amen! --Original Message-- From: Mixon Bill To: Cavers Texas Subject: [Texascavers] TSA this and that Sent: Dec 14, 2009 12:51 PM Some people just need a better e-mail service. My e-mail addresses are all over the place, and I get about two spam messages a week. If you insist on running your own server, you could still use some other place for your e-mail address that has a decent spam filter. And I wouldn't worry about your e-mail address being on the TSA web site, password-protected or not. At least one of your friends probably has something infecting his computer that has sent off his address book to someplace in Russia or Nigeria anyway. Fine with me if the TSA wants to have different dues depending on how one receives the Texas Caver. But the question should be how large a discount you get if you don't want a paper copy, not how much more you pay for one.--Mixon May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save:
texascavers Digest 15 Dec 2009 02:26:11 -0000 Issue 916
texascavers Digest 15 Dec 2009 02:26:11 - Issue 916 Topics (messages 12971 through 12978): Re: Clean Water Action 12971 by: Logan McNatt 12972 by: Thomas Sitch 12973 by: Fritz Holt Re: Please Become a Digital Online Member 12974 by: John P. Brooks 12976 by: Gill Edigar Clarification, and Back to Caving 12975 by: Logan McNatt Re: TSA, Caver, and Caving 12977 by: Chris Vreeland Re: Digital vs. Print 2 12978 by: Gill Edigar Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com To post to the list, e-mail: texascavers@texascavers.com -- ---BeginMessage--- I've been donating to Clean Water Action since 2000, and they are still a viable national organization with a Texas chapter based in Austin: http://www.cleanwateraction.org/tx The first thing that impressed me was they still have people going door to door once a year, at least in south Austin where Gill and I live. Although Annalisa of GEAA said CWA does not get involved in local issues, the issues on their website include: "The Coming Crisis: Water Availability and Municipal Conservation Efforts in Central Texas", "Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy" "Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels', and Georgetown's] Mayor and City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy" "Increase Funding for State Parks" "Get The Mercury Out Of Our Skies And Water" "Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants" Obviously they are an advocacy/lobbying group, so donations are not tax-deductible. I agree with Stephan that it seems like there is a lot of duplication of effort among the plethora of environmental groups, but many of the smaller groups are devoted to a specific geographic area or issue, and cannot actively lobby, unlike CWA. Logan George Veni wrote: Clean Water Action has been working in the Austin and San Antonio areas since at least the mid-1980s. They have worked to lobby government and agencies, and work cooperatively with other green groups to prevent water degradation. I havent seen them much in the past 10 years and dont know if the organization crashed and is now recovering or if it simply got diverted to other projects in other areas. George From: bgillegi...@gmail.com [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill Edigar Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:39 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water RE: Clean Water Action A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called 'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean water is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the world it would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks from folks with good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to keep up with every environmental interest group that comes along. I gave them a few bucks and signed their petition and filled out a personal data card. A few days ago I got a phone call from them asking for a pretty good slug of money. I asked for more information. A letter followed but with nebulous details. Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with SOS, the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that some of our cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their good work? Etc, etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them, but I've never heard of them before and want a better idea of who they are and what they really do. --Ediger ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels', and Georgetown's] Mayor and City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants I love political activists who are very specific on shutting down energy production but very vague on creating it, e.g. Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy How about donate to build power lines to the T. Boons Pickins wind farms or research fund for cellulosic ethanol. Sorry, what was this about? Clean water? Yes, which goes to caves, and we don't have enough of it. Down with nuclear energy!! ~~T From: Logan McNatt lmcn...@austin.rr.com To: George Veni gv...@warpdriveonline.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Mon, December 14, 2009 4:51:20 PM Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action I've been donating to Clean Water Action since 2000, and they are still a viable national organization with a Texas chapter based in Austin: http://www.cleanwateraction.org/tx The first thing
[Texascavers] UT Grotto meeting December 16, 2009
Underground Texas Grotto meeting December 16, 2009 The meeting is on Wednesday from 7:45 P.M. - 9:00 P.M. on the University of Texas Campus in 2.48 Painter Hall http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/pai.html Peter Sprouse will present the program of the evening, Exploration of a new caving area at Muzquiz, Coahuila. A recent trip to this newly found area yielded many major pits where the teams kept returning for more rope. Come see some photography of this spectacular porous Karst region of Mexico where the rancher extended access as well as plenty of food for their Thanksgiving. For information on UT Grotto www.utgrotto.org activates, please see the website. All of our information is available through our link including officer contact info, trips reports, new caver training, event calendar, and posting links to beginner trips or vertical rope training. Sometimes, cavers meet before the meeting about 6:30 at Sau Paulo www.saopaulos.net for happy hour. After every meeting, we adjourn to the Posse www.posseeast.com for beer and burgers. The UT Grotto Program needs you, the caver with photos and a story to share about your adventures, scientific research, or something else really cool. Contact Gary v...@utgrotto.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Clarification, and Back to Caving
Fritz, Thomas, and All, I should have made it clear that I was not advocating that cavers should support Clean Water Action or agree with all of its ideas. I was just trying to describe who they are and what they do, in response to Gill's initial query and the follow-up responses. I agree with some of the points you made, and the last thing I want to do is start a(nother) never-ending discussion on this list about issues that are so controversial and unresolvable. So, let's get back to caves and caving. I know there was a Colorado Bend project this weekend, and a TCMA meeting. Anyone want to give a brief report on those events? Anyone else go caving? Please, someone, anyone. Logan P.S. Thomas, tell me more about using cellulose for ethanol (OFFLINE)! ;) Fritz Holt wrote: Sorry, I must take an opposing view. I consider myself an environmentalist but if there really is such a thing as clean coal technology I am for it. We have plenty of it. I also think that generating electricity from nuclear energy makes good sense. The best solution may be natural gas but our federal government needs to wake up to the fact that to get it we must drill for it as well as for oil as we will never be without the need for this commodity. It is crazy to be importing it from our enemies. No one loves our Texas Hill Country more than I but I dont believe that these activities will be harmful if sensibly regulated which does not mean banning them. I believe that cavers who owned a tract of land would accept a very lucrative offer to lease it for oil and gas exploration. Thats not greed, its good sense. Let the naysayers come forth. Fritz From: Thomas Sitch [mailto:dreadfl...@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 5:23 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action "Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels ', and Georgetown 's] Mayor and City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy" "Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants" I love political activists who are very specific on shutting down energy production but very vague on creating it, e.g. "Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy" How about "donate to build power lines to the T. Boons Pickins wind farms" or "research fund for cellulosic ethanol." Sorry, what was this about? Clean water? Yes, which goes to caves, and we don't have enough of it. Down with nuclear energy!! ~~T From: Logan McNatt lmcn...@austin.rr.com To: George Veni gv...@warpdriveonline.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Mon, December 14, 2009 4:51:20 PM Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action I've been donating to Clean Water Action since 2000, and they are still a viable national organization with a Texas chapter based in Austin : http://www.cleanwateraction.org/tx The first thing that impressed me was they still have people going door to door once a year, at least in south Austin where Gill and I live. Although Annalisa of GEAA said CWA does not get involved in local issues, the issues on their website include: "The Coming Crisis: Water Availability and Municipal Conservation Efforts in Central Texas", "Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy" "Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels ', and Georgetown 's] Mayor and City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy" "Increase Funding for State Parks" "Get The Mercury Out Of Our Skies And Water" "Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants" Obviously they are an advocacy/lobbying group, so donations are not tax-deductible. I agree with Stephan that it seems like there is a lot of duplication of effort among the plethora of environmental groups, but many of the smaller groups are devoted to a specific geographic area or issue, and cannot actively lobby, unlike CWA. Logan George Veni wrote: Clean Water Action has been working in the Austin and San Antonio areas since at least the mid-1980s. They have worked to lobby government and agencies, and work cooperatively with other green groups to prevent water degradation. I havent seen them much in the past 10 years and dont know if the organization crashed and is now recovering or if it simply got diverted to other projects in other areas. George From: bgillegi...@gmail.com [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill Edigar Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:39 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water RE: Clean Water Action A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called 'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean water is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other
Re: [Texascavers] Clarification, and Back to Caving
I am so excited I can hardly contain myself. Tom Byrd and Carl Kunath are coming to Carlsbad this weekend to join in the Endless Restoration Project. The McKittrick Hill caves have been closed now for several years with only resto permits being issued. The projects have toiled along slowly but with much progress being made. Things are starting to truly show the cave recovering from decades of mud dirt being trampled into places that should have never been walked on. Carbide dumps are disappearing, broken flash bulbs removed, damaged formations repaired... Well, check out some of these photos. hope to wet your appetite for more... Karen one of the McKittrick Project Leaders --- So, let's get back to caves and caving. I know there was a Colorado Bend project this weekend, and a TCMA meeting. Anyone want to give a brief report on those events? Anyone else go caving? Please, someone, anyone. Logan P.S. Thomas, tell me more about using cellulose for ethanol (OFFLINE)! ;) Fritz Holt wrote: Sorry, I must take an opposing view. I consider myself an environmentalist but if there really is such a thing as “clean” coal technology I am for it. We have plenty of it. I also think that generating electricity from nuclear energy makes good sense. The best solution may be natural gas but our federal government needs to wake up to the fact that to get it we must drill for it as well as for oil as we will never be without the need for this commodity. It is crazy to be importing it from our enemies. No one loves our Texas Hill Country more than I but I don’t believe that these activities will be harmful if sensibly regulated which does not mean banning them. I believe that cavers who owned a tract of land would accept a very lucrative offer to lease it for oil and gas exploration. That’s not greed, its good sense. Let the naysayers come forth. Fritz From: Thomas Sitch [mailto:dreadfl...@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 5:23 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels ', and Georgetown 's] Mayor and City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants I love political activists who are very specific on shutting down energy production but very vague on creating it, e.g. Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy How about donate to build power lines to the T. Boons Pickins wind farms or research fund for cellulosic ethanol. Sorry, what was this about? Clean water? Yes, which goes to caves, and we don't have enough of it. Down with nuclear energy!! ~~T From: Logan McNatt lmcn...@austin.rr.com To: George Veni gv...@warpdriveonline.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Mon, December 14, 2009 4:51:20 PM Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action I've been donating to Clean Water Action since 2000, and they are still a viable national organization with a Texas chapter based in Austin : http://www.cleanwateraction.org/tx The first thing that impressed me was they still have people going door to door once a year, at least in south Austin where Gill and I live. Although Annalisa of GEAA said CWA does not get involved in local issues, the issues on their website include: The Coming Crisis: Water Availability and Municipal Conservation Efforts in Central Texas, Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels ', and Georgetown 's] Mayor and City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy Increase Funding for State Parks Get The Mercury Out Of Our Skies And Water Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants Obviously they are an advocacy/lobbying group, so donations are not tax-deductible. I agree with Stephan that it seems like there is a lot of duplication of effort among the plethora of environmental groups, but many of the smaller groups are devoted to a specific geographic area or issue, and cannot actively lobby, unlike CWA. Logan George Veni wrote: Clean Water Action has been working in the Austin and San Antonio areas since at least the mid-1980s. They have worked to lobby government and agencies, and work cooperatively with other green groups to prevent water degradation. I haven’t seen them much in the past 10 years and don’t know if the organization crashed and is now recovering or if it simply got diverted to other projects in other areas. George From: bgillegi...@gmail.com [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill Edigar Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:39 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water RE: Clean Water Action A few months ago
[Texascavers] Re: Endless Restoration Project
Thank you Karen, for such a quick response to my request! And it actually involves three Texas cavers (still counting you) going caving in ...uh, what we fondly refer to as Far West Texas. This is the sort of "Endless" discussion this list needs! Have a great trip and be sure to send a report. (But remember, I don't think attachments are allowed on the list.) Logan I am so excited I can hardly contain myself. Tom Byrd and Carl Kunath are coming to Carlsbad this weekend to join in the Endless Restoration Project. The McKittrick Hill caves have been closed now for several years with only resto permits being issued. The projects have toiled along slowly but with much progress being made. Things are starting to truly show the cave recovering from decades of mud dirt being trampled into places that should have never been walked on. Carbide dumps are disappearing, broken flash bulbs removed, damaged formations repaired... Well, check out some of these photos. hope to wet your appetite for more... Karen one of the McKittrick Project Leaders - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Digital vs. Print 2
Don't anyone forget that you can download your digital TEXAS CAVER file onto your memory stick, take it to Kinkos or Office Depot and have it color laser printed HARD COPY just like the editor does and save the TSA all that postage and printing cost--and save the editor a lot of mental and physical hassle. It's the best of both worlds. --Ediger On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Logan McNatt lmcn...@austin.rr.com wrote: I am one of those antiquated bibliophiles who prefers a hard copy of The Texas Caver, but I certainly support the use of electronic copies for all that prefer them. I would be willing to pay the extra cost of printed issues.
Re: [Texascavers] Digital vs. Print 2
Thats a good point Gil, any idea on the costs for that? I've never needed to. Thanks! Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 8:30 AM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: Don't anyone forget that you can download your digital TEXAS CAVER file onto your memory stick, take it to Kinkos or Office Depot and have it color laser printed HARD COPY just like the editor does and save the TSA all that postage and printing cost--and save the editor a lot of mental and physical hassle. It's the best of both worlds. --Ediger On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Logan McNatt lmcn...@austin.rr.com wrote: I am one of those antiquated bibliophiles who prefers a hard copy of The Texas Caver, but I certainly support the use of electronic copies for all that prefer them. I would be willing to pay the extra cost of printed issues.
Re: [Texascavers] Digital vs. Print 2
No. No idea. Affordable, though, I'm sure. The point is that anybody could print out a fast and dirty BW copy on their cheapass home (or office) printer for scanning in the privacy of their own bedrooms and then have Kinkos do up a slick and shiny copy for their sanctified library file--say get all 4 issues done once a year and made up into a single volume. Huh? Check out the latest bindings, maybe? --Ediger On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.orgwrote: Thats a good point Gil, any idea on the costs for that? I've never needed to. Thanks! Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 8:30 AM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: Don't anyone forget that you can download your digital TEXAS CAVER file onto your memory stick, take it to Kinkos or Office Depot and have it color laser printed HARD COPY just like the editor does and save the TSA all that postage and printing cost--and save the editor a lot of mental and physical hassle. It's the best of both worlds. --Ediger On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Logan McNatt lmcn...@austin.rr.com wrote: I am one of those antiquated bibliophiles who prefers a hard copy of The Texas Caver, but I certainly support the use of electronic copies for all that prefer them. I would be willing to pay the extra cost of printed issues. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Digital vs. Print 2
Let's see now. I pay for a Texas Caver with my dues to the TSA. Then I receive my electronic copy off the TSA website. Then I get in my car and drive to the FedEx or wherever to pay for a printed version. All to save the TSA a little money and the editor some grief. Now multiply this scenario 4 times a year for about half the TSA membership. I don't believe that's a better world for anyone. I agree with Mixon that a two-tiered system has probably come of age for the TSA. But it also means that dues should be proportionally reduced for those that choose to receive an electronic copy of the TxCvr. Unless, of course, the reason for reducing the costs of the TxCvr is to create a large cash surplus for the TSA. Saving the TSA money is a noble goal but providing the membership with tangible services is really the purpose of the whole organization. The membership is quite diverse and their needs should be accommodated as much as possible, not made to feel defensive because they aren't the same as some faction within the group. I'm disappointed that in the present discussion, there are some that feel that their view has got to be the only reasonable way. Why not work toward a reasonable compromise that works for all the membership ? The current discussion regarding whether or not a hardcopy version of the TxCvr should be published has thus far produced nothing to provide better services for the membership and caused mostly dissension in an organization that needs more members and participation. I'm a little surprised that the Chairman thought this was an interesting way to stir up the restive masses. Let sleeping dogs lie. Jerry. In a message dated 12/14/2009 8:31:16 A.M. Central Standard Time, gi...@att.net writes: Don't anyone forget that you can download your digital TEXAS CAVER file onto your memory stick, take it to Kinkos or Office Depot and have it color laser printed HARD COPY just like the editor does and save the TSA all that postage and printing cost--and save the editor a lot of mental and physical hassle. It's the best of both worlds. --Ediger
Re: [Texascavers] Digital vs. Print 2
Actually Jerry, I'm the one who brought up (yet again) that we should push for the Digital cheaper version of TSA and less paper waste. I don't think it was Mark's intention with his story. I just took his story and ran with it. Gil's idea has merit, and it helps out all of the caving community, not just TSA members. Charles On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:02 AM, jerryat...@aol.com wrote: Let's see now. I pay for a Texas Caver with my dues to the TSA. Then I receive my electronic copy off the TSA website. Then I get in my car and drive to the FedEx or wherever to pay for a printed version. All to save the TSA a little money and the editor some grief. Now multiply this scenario 4 times a year for about half the TSA membership. I don't believe that's a better world for anyone. I agree with Mixon that a two-tiered system has probably come of age for the TSA. But it also means that dues should be proportionally reduced for those that choose to receive an electronic copy of the TxCvr. Unless, of course, the reason for reducing the costs of the TxCvr is to create a large cash surplus for the TSA. Saving the TSA money is a noble goal but providing the membership with tangible services is really the purpose of the whole organization. The membership is quite diverse and their needs should be accommodated as much as possible, not made to feel defensive because they aren't the same as some faction within the group. I'm disappointed that in the present discussion, there are some that feel that their view has got to be the only reasonable way. Why not work toward a reasonable compromise that works for all the membership ? The current discussion regarding whether or not a hardcopy version of the TxCvr should be published has thus far produced nothing to provide better services for the membership and caused mostly dissension in an organization that needs more members and participation. I'm a little surprised that the Chairman thought this was an interesting way to stir up the restive masses. Let sleeping dogs lie. Jerry. In a message dated 12/14/2009 8:31:16 A.M. Central Standard Time, gi...@att.net writes: Don't anyone forget that you can download your digital TEXAS CAVER file onto your memory stick, take it to Kinkos or Office Depot and have it color laser printed HARD COPY just like the editor does and save the TSA all that postage and printing cost--and save the editor a lot of mental and physical hassle. It's the best of both worlds. --Ediger
[Texascavers] TSA, Caver, and Caving
I believe the problem with the bulk rate has been that we are not sending out enough copies to get the bulk rate. The truth is, also, that print media is in decline. I believe that it is probably time to revisit the two-tier membership option and gradually phase that in. As much as one may approve or disapprove, even libraries are moving away from print in many instances. As to the function and usefulness of the TSA, it provides a strong link and access to the greater caving community, especially the NSS. The TSA goes through phases of being, and sometimes is more active than others. But it fills a niche that no other organization does. It is an access point for new cavers, and the spring convention is a great event, especially providing a venue for news on exploration and scientific research. Continuity and institutional memory have been the greatest problems for the TSA, and no solution has really solved that. So the TSA wrestles with the same problems over and over again. Many organizations do the same, though. TSA officers often go on to be major contributors in other caving organizations, and they also look back and discuss all the ways TSA could do it better. But they are not doing it, and are usually not willing to be a TSA officer again or to be a major actor in the TSA. So be it. Cheers to the TSA officers, members, and all the dedicated writers and editors of the Texas Caver. Keep up the good work. From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 7:39 AM To: lmcn...@austin.rr.com; TexasCavers Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Digital vs. Print I'm in the process of pursuing the bulk mail rate/permit for us, Logan, as I plan on continuing to do the newsletter for the foreseeable future. (Sorry to tell y'all that!) I'll let the membership know how it's proceeding in January, but, I'm not stepping foot in the post office until after Christmas! Good point about the back issues, Anyway you or Lee Jay could bring ~12 of the recent issues to the winter meeting at CBSP? A certain vivacious Vice-Chair Elect is hounding me to get her some back issues! Thanks, Mark _ From: Logan McNatt [mailto:lmcn...@austin.rr.com] Sent: Sun 12/13/2009 7:21 PM To: 'TexasCavers' Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Digital vs. Print I am one of those antiquated bibliophiles who prefers a hard copy of The Texas Caver, but I certainly support the use of electronic copies for all that prefer them. I would be willing to pay the extra cost of printed issues. Questions for Mark: What happened to using the Bulk Mailing Rate? I assume it requires a minimum number of copies, and perhaps we don't meet that? I like the color photos, but how much do they add to the cost of printing compared to the same photos in BW? Just curious; I'm not advocating all BW. Logan (Caretaker of approximately 20,000 back issues of The Texas Caver owned by TSA, most of which are not available electronically, but can be yours for about 25 to 50 cents each. A treasure trove of maps, photos, trip reports, etc.; buy now before they're all gone!) - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] TSA, Caver, and Caving
I just got my gorgeous hard copy of the Caver in the mail today, and have to say that as an old fart, I really like getting publications in the mail at seemingly random intervals, and sitting down in a chair to read them. Then, I enjoy putting them on my bookshelf. One thing I do not enjoy is driving to Office Max to stock up on ink cartridges. If it takes another $5.00 a year to keep them coming, I think I can skip a pack of cigarettes in order to make that happen. BTW, Thanks Mark, for an excellent issue! As a former editor, I thought i knew all about the unsung heroics of editing, but your tale of woe tops them all. Please keep up the good work! On Dec 14, 2009, at 10:18 AM, Linda Palit wrote: I believe the problem with the bulk rate has been that we are not sending out enough copies to get the bulk rate. The truth is, also, that print media is in decline. I believe that it is probably time to revisit the two-tier membership option and gradually phase that in. From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 7:39 AM To: lmcn...@austin.rr.com; TexasCavers Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Digital vs. Print I'm in the process of pursuing the bulk mail rate/permit for us, Logan, as I plan on continuing to do the newsletter for the foreseeable future. (Sorry to tell y'all that!) From: Logan McNatt [mailto:lmcn...@austin.rr.com] I am one of those antiquated bibliophiles who prefers a hard copy of The Texas Caver, but I certainly support the use of electronic copies for all that prefer them. I would be willing to pay the extra cost of printed issues.
RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Some of the other items the TSA has supported: * A sizeable donation to the NSS for their White Nose Syndrome Rapid Response Effort. * Purchase and refurbishment of quite a lot of survey equipment used around the state for various projects. * A huge donation to the TCMA towards the payoff of the Punkin and Deep cave purchase. Plus, many other smaller projects that are listed in the TSA Meeting minutes. (Joe, I'm rather shocked and dismayed you would ask this. You're a board member of the TCMA and were present when we conducted the votes on all of the above items). 8^( Mark From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca] Sent: Sun 12/13/2009 5:50 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member ellie :) wrote: The TSA membership fees cover much more than the cost of The Caver Joe Ranzau wrote: Like? Sending a few deserving cavers from other countries to the ICS, the TSA paid for their registration. -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Hey Mark - In addition to being a current TCMA Board Member and Officer I have also been the TSA Vice President, Treasurer and Secretary and served in multiple grotto officer positions. I am not trying to attack or discredit anyone's hard work and certaily not shock and dismay anyone. I appreciate what everyone does and have done much more shocking things than a one word email. I was also sitting right beside Ellie on a couch discussing options for things to do at Spring Convention when I responded to her email. The Items you mentioned are quite good but I can't help but wonder what unique things the TSA provides me besides a great caving magazine? This is the same issue I struggled with when I was an officer. *TCC is bailing out the convention and honestly replicates it at their big winter event with talks and caving. Might not be quite as good but if it were the only one I bet it would grow. *TCR throws one hell of a party without politics or much TSA support (aside from running registration so TSA can gather memberships). I do believe TCR is explicitly prohibited from merging with TSA and has bailed TSA out financially on more than one occasion. *The land fund donation to TCMA came from NSS seed money from hosting the 94 convention. The TSA decided it would make a nice contribution to TCMA because it was not growing much under TSA and was a bit of a hassle. *It was quite nice of TSA to help refurbish the Honey Creek shaft. Our grotto put it in during the 80's and many grottos donate money to keep the tractor working and maintain the ranch. It helps but is not unique. *TSA projects exist nicely on their own. CBSP would continue without TSA, probably in a different form. The new Amistad project is run through the TSS? The Rancho Diana project in SA is just one caver. The Austin group is working a huge cave ranch near spring branch. etc. *TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being affiliated with TSA. *The NSS runs the WNS fund and many grottos including several I belong to contributed. I'm not sure what unique benefit the TSA provides me other than a magazine with a membership and fellowship opportunities. This is not necessarily a bad thing and thankfully for everyone is just my two cents. Joe On Dec 14, 2009 7:16am, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Some of the other items the TSA has supported: * A sizeable donation to the NSS for their White Nose Syndrome Rapid Response Effort. * Purchase and refurbishment of quite a lot of survey equipment used around the state for various projects. * A huge donation to the TCMA towards the payoff of the Punkin and Deep cave purchase. Plus, many other smaller projects that are listed in the TSA Meeting minutes. (Joe, I'm rather shocked and dismayed you would ask this. You're a board member of the TCMA and were present when we conducted the votes on all of the above items). 8^( Mark From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca] Sent: Sun 12/13/2009 5:50 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member ellie :) wrote: The TSA membership fees cover much more than the cost of The Caver Joe Ranzau wrote: Like? Sending a few deserving cavers from other countries to the ICS, the TSA paid for their registration. -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Joe, I enjoyed reading this post about the various projects of the state's caving groups, past and present. As I have done before on this subject, I will take this opportunity to inject my two cents. The enjoyment I get from receiving (electronically) and reading The Caver is itself worth the dues paid. But, this is greatly overshadowed by the personal enjoyment of the camaraderie at events and gatherings with cavers who for the most part are TSA members. The good times had at these events would not be possible without the planning and hard work of the officers of TSA, TCMA and the volunteers of these groups. VIVA TSA! Fritz From: jran...@gmail.com [mailto:jran...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 10:31 AM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member Hey Mark - In addition to being a current TCMA Board Member and Officer I have also been the TSA Vice President, Treasurer and Secretary and served in multiple grotto officer positions. I am not trying to attack or discredit anyone's hard work and certaily not shock and dismay anyone. I appreciate what everyone does and have done much more shocking things than a one word email. I was also sitting right beside Ellie on a couch discussing options for things to do at Spring Convention when I responded to her email. The Items you mentioned are quite good but I can't help but wonder what unique things the TSA provides me besides a great caving magazine? This is the same issue I struggled with when I was an officer. *TCC is bailing out the convention and honestly replicates it at their big winter event with talks and caving. Might not be quite as good but if it were the only one I bet it would grow. *TCR throws one hell of a party without politics or much TSA support (aside from running registration so TSA can gather memberships). I do believe TCR is explicitly prohibited from merging with TSA and has bailed TSA out financially on more than one occasion. *The land fund donation to TCMA came from NSS seed money from hosting the 94 convention. The TSA decided it would make a nice contribution to TCMA because it was not growing much under TSA and was a bit of a hassle. *It was quite nice of TSA to help refurbish the Honey Creek shaft. Our grotto put it in during the 80's and many grottos donate money to keep the tractor working and maintain the ranch. It helps but is not unique. *TSA projects exist nicely on their own. CBSP would continue without TSA, probably in a different form. The new Amistad project is run through the TSS? The Rancho Diana project in SA is just one caver. The Austin group is working a huge cave ranch near spring branch. etc. *TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being affiliated with TSA. *The NSS runs the WNS fund and many grottos including several I belong to contributed. I'm not sure what unique benefit the TSA provides me other than a magazine with a membership and fellowship opportunities. This is not necessarily a bad thing and thankfully for everyone is just my two cents. Joe On Dec 14, 2009 7:16am, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Some of the other items the TSA has supported: * A sizeable donation to the NSS for their White Nose Syndrome Rapid Response Effort. * Purchase and refurbishment of quite a lot of survey equipment used around the state for various projects. * A huge donation to the TCMA towards the payoff of the Punkin and Deep cave purchase. Plus, many other smaller projects that are listed in the TSA Meeting minutes. (Joe, I'm rather shocked and dismayed you would ask this. You're a board member of the TCMA and were present when we conducted the votes on all of the above items). 8^( Mark From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca] Sent: Sun 12/13/2009 5:50 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member ellie :) wrote: The TSA membership fees cover much more than the cost of The Caver Joe Ranzau wrote: Like? Sending a few deserving cavers from other countries to the ICS, the TSA paid for their registration. -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Old cavers never die, they just fade away (but most can still read with a magnifying glass). Geezer -Original Message- From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca] Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 6:44 AM To: ellie :); Cavers Texas Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member ellie :) wrote: ... and Lyndon can offer memberships when he registers people. People can put their email on the registration and opt to make next edition be their first digital one. Yes and I promise not to tell new clueless members they have the option of getting a hard copy. That way, all new members get electronic copies. Once all existing members die, the Texas Caver will become all electronic. Great plan Ellie, you're a genius! -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Well said. I am in total agreement!! For many years now I have refused to rejoin TSA due to several issues.I moved to NM in April this year and wanted to keep in touch with Texas caving so I recently re-upped my membership. What I have found is once again differences of opinion causing conflict within the organization. It almost seems as though TSA is cursed with some kind of continual turmol. TSA should and NEEDS to keep hard copies of the Caver for many excellent reason that have been better stated by folks like Mark Jim. So I say dittoI want a hard copy. Karen --Joe, I enjoyed reading this post about the various projects of the state’s caving groups, From: jran...@gmail.com [mailto:jran...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 10:31 AM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member Hey Mark - In addition to being a current TCMA Board Member and Officer I have also been the TSA Vice President, Treasurer and Secretary and served in multiple grotto officer positions. I am not trying to attack or discredit anyone's hard work and certaily not shock and dismay anyone. I appreciate what everyone does and have done much more shocking things than a one word email. I was also sitting right beside Ellie on a couch discussing options for things to do at Spring Convention when I responded to her email. The Items you mentioned are quite good but I can't help but wonder what unique things the TSA provides me besides a great caving magazine? This is the same issue I struggled with when I was an officer. *TCC is bailing out the convention and honestly replicates it at their big winter event with talks and caving. Might not be quite as good but if it were the only one I bet it would grow. *TCR throws one hell of a party without politics or much TSA support (aside from running registration so TSA can gather memberships). I do believe TCR is explicitly prohibited from merging with TSA and has bailed TSA out financially on more than one occasion. *The land fund donation to TCMA came from NSS seed money from hosting the 94 convention. The TSA decided it would make a nice contribution to TCMA because it was not growing much under TSA and was a bit of a hassle. *It was quite nice of TSA to help refurbish the Honey Creek shaft. Our grotto put it in during the 80's and many grottos donate money to keep the tractor working and maintain the ranch. It helps but is not unique. *TSA projects exist nicely on their own. CBSP would continue without TSA, probably in a different form. The new Amistad project is run through the TSS? The Rancho Diana project in SA is just one caver. The Austin group is working a huge cave ranch near spring branch. etc. *TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being affiliated with TSA. *The NSS runs the WNS fund and many grottos including several I belong to contributed. I'm not sure what unique benefit the TSA provides me other than a magazine with a membership and fellowship opportunities. This is not necessarily a bad thing and thankfully for everyone is just my two cents. Joe On Dec 14, 2009 7:16am, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Some of the other items the TSA has supported: * A sizeable donation to the NSS for their White Nose Syndrome Rapid Response Effort. * Purchase and refurbishment of quite a lot of survey equipment used around the state for various projects. * A huge donation to the TCMA towards the payoff of the Punkin and Deep cave purchase. Plus, many other smaller projects that are listed in the TSA Meeting minutes. (Joe, I'm rather shocked and dismayed you would ask this. You're a board member of the TCMA and were present when we conducted the votes on all of the above items). 8^( Mark From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca] Sent: Sun 12/13/2009 5:50 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member ellie :) wrote: The TSA membership fees cover much more than the cost of The Caver Joe Ranzau wrote: Like? Sending a few deserving cavers from other countries to the ICS, the TSA paid for their registration. -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Welcome back, Karen! Now, if we could only get Ediger to rejoin! There's no more turmoil than normal going on. I just had to throw a rock at the hornets nest last week with my tales of woe, as it was too quiet and I was feeling the creative juices flowing, thanks in part to having completed reading Kinky Friedman's Guide To Texas Etiquette and currently reading another of his books, Spanking Watson. Plus, we needed to publicize the TSA Winter meeting next month (Sunday, January 10th at 9 AM at the Conference Center at CBSP). So you all have played into my diabolical plan! The hard copy of the TC won't be going away, as there's too much interest in keeping it and several of our college subscribers want it that way. Two-tiered or not two-tiered, I see that as being the question. Come to CBSP in January to see how that pans out. We need and appreciate every caver, even the ones of varying and differing opinions! Later, Mark From: Karen Perry [mailto:txcavem...@yahoo.com] Sent: Mon 12/14/2009 12:47 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member Well said. I am in total agreement!! For many years now I have refused to rejoin TSA due to several issues.I moved to NM in April this year and wanted to keep in touch with Texas caving so I recently re-upped my membership. What I have found is once again differences of opinion causing conflict within the organization. It almost seems as though TSA is cursed with some kind of continual turmol. TSA should and NEEDS to keep hard copies of the Caver for many excellent reason that have been better stated by folks like Mark Jim. So I say dittoI want a hard copy. Karen
Re: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Joe, I I'm going speak to one thing here, since I administer and run both (and the same) that you mention here. When I took over CaveTex, Bill handed me the reins, membership list and website. I only updated a few instructions on the site, but left it the same as he had it. Yes, it has a disclaimer on it about it not being the official list for TSA or any other group. I think the majority of the CaveTex membership wants it this way, while TSA members are a large part of the CaveTex members, there are many here who aren't. If the TSA wants its own list for updates, member talk, etc, I'd be happy to set one up, but to be honest, I don't think its necessary. TSA doesn't have anything to hide from non-members. Do I take pride in not having CaveTex as the official TSA voice? No, and it wasn't meant that way I don't think. I'm a proud (and vocal) member of TSA, TCMA, NSS and few other organizations. Charles CaveTex list administrator flunky On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:31 AM, jran...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Mark - *TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being affiliated with TSA.
Re: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
I was specifically referencing Mr. White who ran the list when I started. The TSA offered assistance once or twice and was politely declined. Bill Bentley must have just kept the same wording much like you did. Joe On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.orgwrote: Joe, I I'm going speak to one thing here, since I administer and run both (and the same) that you mention here. When I took over CaveTex, Bill handed me the reins, membership list and website. I only updated a few instructions on the site, but left it the same as he had it. Yes, it has a disclaimer on it about it not being the official list for TSA or any other group. I think the majority of the CaveTex membership wants it this way, while TSA members are a large part of the CaveTex members, there are many here who aren't. If the TSA wants its own list for updates, member talk, etc, I'd be happy to set one up, but to be honest, I don't think its necessary. TSA doesn't have anything to hide from non-members. Do I take pride in not having CaveTex as the official TSA voice? No, and it wasn't meant that way I don't think. I'm a proud (and vocal) member of TSA, TCMA, NSS and few other organizations. Charles CaveTex list administrator flunky On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:31 AM, jran...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Mark - *TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being affiliated with TSA.
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
there are a lot of agency and consultign folks who's jobs involve caves insome way and most of them monitor what goes on via cavetex something a lot of caves are not mindful of Charles Goldsmith wrote: Joe, I I'm going speak to one thing here, since I administer and run both (and the same) that you mention here. When I took over CaveTex, Bill handed me the reins, membership list and website. I only updated a few instructions on the site, but left it the same as he had it. Yes, it has a disclaimer on it about it not being the official list for TSA or any other group. I think the majority of the CaveTex membership wants it this way, while TSA members are a large part of the CaveTex members, there are many here who aren't. If the TSA wants its own list for updates, member talk, etc, I'd be happy to set one up, but to be honest, I don't think its necessary. TSA doesn't have anything to hide from non-members. Do I take pride in not having CaveTex as the official TSA voice? No, and it wasn't meant that way I don't think. I'm a proud (and vocal) member of TSA, TCMA, NSS and few other organizations. Charles CaveTex list administrator flunky On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:31 AM, jran...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Mark - *TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being affiliated with TSA. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
That's interesting Andy, care to enlighten me further in how this affects those agencies, etc? Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Andy Grubbs hays...@centurytel.net wrote: there are a lot of agency and consultign folks who's jobs involve caves insome way and most of them monitor what goes on via cavetex something a lot of caves are not mindful of Charles Goldsmith wrote: Joe, I I'm going speak to one thing here, since I administer and run both (and the same) that you mention here. When I took over CaveTex, Bill handed me the reins, membership list and website. I only updated a few instructions on the site, but left it the same as he had it. Yes, it has a disclaimer on it about it not being the official list for TSA or any other group. I think the majority of the CaveTex membership wants it this way, while TSA members are a large part of the CaveTex members, there are many here who aren't. If the TSA wants its own list for updates, member talk, etc, I'd be happy to set one up, but to be honest, I don't think its necessary. TSA doesn't have anything to hide from non-members. Do I take pride in not having CaveTex as the official TSA voice? No, and it wasn't meant that way I don't think. I'm a proud (and vocal) member of TSA, TCMA, NSS and few other organizations. Charles CaveTex list administrator flunky On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:31 AM, jran...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Mark - *TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being affiliated with TSA. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Keep up the good work, Beer Boy. On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.orgwrote: Joe, I I'm going speak to one thing here, since I administer and run both (and the same) that you mention here. When I took over CaveTex, Bill handed me the reins, membership list and website. I only updated a few instructions on the site, but left it the same as he had it. Yes, it has a disclaimer on it about it not being the official list for TSA or any other group. I think the majority of the CaveTex membership wants it this way, while TSA members are a large part of the CaveTex members, there are many here who aren't. If the TSA wants its own list for updates, member talk, etc, I'd be happy to set one up, but to be honest, I don't think its necessary. TSA doesn't have anything to hide from non-members. Do I take pride in not having CaveTex as the official TSA voice? No, and it wasn't meant that way I don't think. I'm a proud (and vocal) member of TSA, TCMA, NSS and few other organizations. Charles CaveTex list administrator flunky On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:31 AM, jran...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Mark - *TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being affiliated with TSA. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Thank you, Ms. Vice Chair On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 2:57 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Keep up the good work, Beer Boy. On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Joe, I I'm going speak to one thing here, since I administer and run both (and the same) that you mention here. When I took over CaveTex, Bill handed me the reins, membership list and website. I only updated a few instructions on the site, but left it the same as he had it. Yes, it has a disclaimer on it about it not being the official list for TSA or any other group. I think the majority of the CaveTex membership wants it this way, while TSA members are a large part of the CaveTex members, there are many here who aren't. If the TSA wants its own list for updates, member talk, etc, I'd be happy to set one up, but to be honest, I don't think its necessary. TSA doesn't have anything to hide from non-members. Do I take pride in not having CaveTex as the official TSA voice? No, and it wasn't meant that way I don't think. I'm a proud (and vocal) member of TSA, TCMA, NSS and few other organizations. Charles CaveTex list administrator flunky On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:31 AM, jran...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Mark - *TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being affiliated with TSA. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? On 12/14/09 1:14 PM, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Welcome back, Karen! Now, if we could only get Ediger to rejoin!
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME. I am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers. They do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be better cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And their participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for Texas caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide to cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a better participant in Texas caving. I coined a phrase in 1969, As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the TSA. I think that is still true today. If The TEXAS CAVER is made available to all Texas cavers digitally and free then we will see a much better informed group of Texas cavers taking the bait to become members of the TSA and helping it reach it's selfish aims and purposes--a major part of which is promoting Texas caving--for ALL of us, not just the few. The time has finally come, my fellow Texas cavers, to do something for our selfish selves. It costs the TSA nothing to give The TEXAS CAVER away digitally. It costs the TSA and Texas caving a lot not to. If you want to do something selfish for yourself and for all the other Texas cavers vote at your earliest opportunity to separate The CAVER from TSA membership, to make it free to any digital subscriber. Otherwise, we're just preaching to the choir. Yours in Texas caving (for nearly 43 years now), --Ediger On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.netwrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? On 12/14/09 1:14 PM, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Welcome back, Karen! Now, if we could only get Ediger to rejoin!
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year or so, about the $100 donation. I also seem to remark about matching that, and I'll stand by it. I'll donate $100 as well. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME. I am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers. They do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be better cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And their participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for Texas caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide to cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a better participant in Texas caving. I coined a phrase in 1969, As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the TSA. I think that is still true today. If The TEXAS CAVER is made available to all Texas cavers digitally and free then we will see a much better informed group of Texas cavers taking the bait to become members of the TSA and helping it reach it's selfish aims and purposes--a major part of which is promoting Texas caving--for ALL of us, not just the few. The time has finally come, my fellow Texas cavers, to do something for our selfish selves. It costs the TSA nothing to give The TEXAS CAVER away digitally. It costs the TSA and Texas caving a lot not to. If you want to do something selfish for yourself and for all the other Texas cavers vote at your earliest opportunity to separate The CAVER from TSA membership, to make it free to any digital subscriber. Otherwise, we're just preaching to the choir. Yours in Texas caving (for nearly 43 years now), --Ediger On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? On 12/14/09 1:14 PM, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Welcome back, Karen! Now, if we could only get Ediger to rejoin!
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for him though(you)-i wont On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year or so, about the $100 donation. I also seem to remark about matching that, and I'll stand by it. I'll donate $100 as well. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME. I am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers. They do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be better cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And their participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for Texas caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide to cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a better participant in Texas caving. I coined a phrase in 1969, As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the TSA. I think that is still true today. If The TEXAS CAVER is made available to all Texas cavers digitally and free then we will see a much better informed group of Texas cavers taking the bait to become members of the TSA and helping it reach it's selfish aims and purposes--a major part of which is promoting Texas caving--for ALL of us, not just the few. The time has finally come, my fellow Texas cavers, to do something for our selfish selves. It costs the TSA nothing to give The TEXAS CAVER away digitally. It costs the TSA and Texas caving a lot not to. If you want to do something selfish for yourself and for all the other Texas cavers vote at your earliest opportunity to separate The CAVER from TSA membership, to make it free to any digital subscriber. Otherwise, we're just preaching to the choir. Yours in Texas caving (for nearly 43 years now), --Ediger On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? On 12/14/09 1:14 PM, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Welcome back, Karen! Now, if we could only get Ediger to rejoin! - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think that it will bring in more members in the long run. The information should be free. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for him though(you)-i wont On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year or so, about the $100 donation. I also seem to remark about matching that, and I'll stand by it. I'll donate $100 as well. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME. I am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers. They do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be better cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And their participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for Texas caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide to cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a better participant in Texas caving. I coined a phrase in 1969, As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the TSA. I think that is still true today. If The TEXAS CAVER is made available to all Texas cavers digitally and free then we will see a much better informed group of Texas cavers taking the bait to become members of the TSA and helping it reach it's selfish aims and purposes--a major part of which is promoting Texas caving--for ALL of us, not just the few. The time has finally come, my fellow Texas cavers, to do something for our selfish selves. It costs the TSA nothing to give The TEXAS CAVER away digitally. It costs the TSA and Texas caving a lot not to. If you want to do something selfish for yourself and for all the other Texas cavers vote at your earliest opportunity to separate The CAVER from TSA membership, to make it free to any digital subscriber. Otherwise, we're just preaching to the choir. Yours in Texas caving (for nearly 43 years now), --Ediger On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? On 12/14/09 1:14 PM, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Welcome back, Karen! Now, if we could only get Ediger to rejoin! - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Amen Ediger! On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver who wants to sign up for a free subscription.
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down the ideas. No, went to AM for a few years for comp sci and switched to an aeronautical school to get my pilot's license. Am back in computers tho, LOL :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably have material prepared as well On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think that it will bring in more members in the long run. The information should be free. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for him though(you)-i wont On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year or so, about the $100 donation. I also seem to remark about matching that, and I'll stand by it. I'll donate $100 as well. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME. I am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers. They do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be better cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And their participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for Texas caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide to cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a better participant in Texas caving. I coined a phrase in 1969, As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the TSA. I think that is still true today. If The TEXAS CAVER is made available to all Texas cavers digitally and free then we will see a much better informed group of Texas cavers taking the bait to become members of the TSA and helping it reach it's selfish aims and purposes--a major part of which is promoting Texas caving--for ALL of us, not just the few. The time has finally come, my fellow Texas cavers, to do something for our selfish selves. It costs the TSA nothing to give The TEXAS CAVER away digitally. It costs the TSA and Texas caving a lot not to. If you want to do something selfish for yourself and for all the other Texas cavers vote at your earliest opportunity to separate The CAVER from TSA membership, to make it free to any digital subscriber. Otherwise, we're just preaching to the choir. Yours in Texas caving (for nearly 43 years now), --Ediger On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? On 12/14/09 1:14 PM, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Welcome back, Karen! Now, if we could only get Ediger to rejoin! - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers. On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down the ideas. No, went to AM for a few years for comp sci and switched to an aeronautical school to get my pilot's license. Am back in computers tho, LOL :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably have material prepared as well On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think that it will bring in more members in the long run. The information should be free. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for him though(you)-i wont On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year or so, about the $100 donation. I also seem to remark about matching that, and I'll stand by it. I'll donate $100 as well. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME. I am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers. They do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be better cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And their participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for Texas caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide to cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a better participant in Texas caving. I coined a phrase in 1969, As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the TSA. I think that is still true today. If The TEXAS CAVER is made available to all Texas cavers digitally and free then we will see a much better informed group of Texas cavers taking the bait to become members of the TSA and helping it reach it's selfish aims and purposes--a major part of which is promoting Texas caving--for ALL of us, not just the few. The time has finally come, my fellow Texas cavers, to do something for our selfish selves. It costs the TSA nothing to give The TEXAS CAVER away digitally. It costs the TSA and Texas caving a lot not to. If you want to do something selfish for yourself and for all the other Texas cavers vote at your earliest opportunity to separate The CAVER from TSA membership, to make it free to any digital subscriber. Otherwise, we're just preaching to the choir. Yours in Texas caving (for nearly 43 years now), --Ediger On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? On 12/14/09 1:14 PM, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Welcome back, Karen! Now, if we could only get Ediger to rejoin! - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail:
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago. Isn't that why you have geek friends? On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers. On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down the ideas. No, went to AM for a few years for comp sci and switched to an aeronautical school to get my pilot's license. Am back in computers tho, LOL :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably have material prepared as well On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think that it will bring in more members in the long run. The information should be free. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for him though(you)-i wont On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year or so, about the $100 donation. I also seem to remark about matching that, and I'll stand by it. I'll donate $100 as well. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME. I am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers. They do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be better cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And their participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for Texas caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide to cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a better participant in Texas caving. I coined a phrase in 1969, As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the TSA. I think that is still true today. If The TEXAS CAVER is made available to all Texas cavers digitally and free then we will see a much better informed group of Texas cavers taking the bait to become members of the TSA and helping it reach it's selfish aims and purposes--a major part of which is promoting Texas caving--for ALL of us, not just the few. The time has finally come, my fellow Texas cavers, to do something for our selfish selves. It costs the TSA nothing to give The TEXAS CAVER away digitally. It costs the TSA and Texas caving a lot not to. If you want to do something selfish for yourself and for all the other Texas cavers vote at your earliest opportunity to separate The CAVER from TSA membership, to make it free to any digital subscriber. Otherwise, we're just preaching to the choir. Yours in Texas caving (for nearly 43 years now), --Ediger On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? On 12/14/09 1:14 PM, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Welcome back, Karen! Now, if we could
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand in hand with this? I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard cover should have to pay for that privilege :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills. Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun and simple, right? You in? On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago. Isn't that why you have geek friends? On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers. On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down the ideas. No, went to AM for a few years for comp sci and switched to an aeronautical school to get my pilot's license. Am back in computers tho, LOL :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably have material prepared as well On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think that it will bring in more members in the long run. The information should be free. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for him though(you)-i wont On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year or so, about the $100 donation. I also seem to remark about matching that, and I'll stand by it. I'll donate $100 as well. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME. I am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers. They do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be better cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And their participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for Texas caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide to cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a better participant in Texas caving. I coined a phrase in 1969, As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the TSA. I think that is still true today. If The TEXAS CAVER is made available to all Texas cavers digitally and free then we will see a much better informed group of Texas cavers taking the bait to become members of the TSA and helping it reach it's selfish aims and purposes--a major part of which is promoting Texas caving--for ALL of us, not just the few. The time has finally come, my fellow Texas cavers, to do something for our selfish
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Yes of course, and the member fee increase. If it all sticks to your motion, and doesnt stray, we can cover a lot of business in a very short time with the members present. We will need handouts detailing everything but that is simple and I will volunteer to do it. We have time and I would rather focus on caves and caving now. On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand in hand with this? I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard cover should have to pay for that privilege :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills. Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun and simple, right? You in? On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago. Isn't that why you have geek friends? On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers. On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down the ideas. No, went to AM for a few years for comp sci and switched to an aeronautical school to get my pilot's license. Am back in computers tho, LOL :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably have material prepared as well On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think that it will bring in more members in the long run. The information should be free. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for him though(you)-i wont On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year or so, about the $100 donation. I also seem to remark about matching that, and I'll stand by it. I'll donate $100 as well. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME. I am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers. They do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be better cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And their participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for Texas caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide to cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a better participant in Texas caving. I coined a phrase in 1969, As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the TSA. I think that is still true today. If The TEXAS
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Cool, let me know if I can help further On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:08 AM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Yes of course, and the member fee increase. If it all sticks to your motion, and doesnt stray, we can cover a lot of business in a very short time with the members present. We will need handouts detailing everything but that is simple and I will volunteer to do it. We have time and I would rather focus on caves and caving now. On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand in hand with this? I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard cover should have to pay for that privilege :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills. Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun and simple, right? You in? On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago. Isn't that why you have geek friends? On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers. On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down the ideas. No, went to AM for a few years for comp sci and switched to an aeronautical school to get my pilot's license. Am back in computers tho, LOL :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably have material prepared as well On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think that it will bring in more members in the long run. The information should be free. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for him though(you)-i wont On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year or so, about the $100 donation. I also seem to remark about matching that, and I'll stand by it. I'll donate $100 as well. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME. I am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers. They do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be better cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And their participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for Texas caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide to cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a better participant in Texas caving. I
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
So, copy and paste this following message and forward it to whatever related posts: I motion to table this discussion and refer it to the Free Texas Caver committee to be discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting where registered members present can vote for a majority. Include meeting location details if desired. On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand in hand with this? I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard cover should have to pay for that privilege :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills. Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun and simple, right? You in? On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago. Isn't that why you have geek friends? On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers. On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down the ideas. No, went to AM for a few years for comp sci and switched to an aeronautical school to get my pilot's license. Am back in computers tho, LOL :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably have material prepared as well On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think that it will bring in more members in the long run. The information should be free. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for him though(you)-i wont On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year or so, about the $100 donation. I also seem to remark about matching that, and I'll stand by it. I'll donate $100 as well. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME. I am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers. They do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be better cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And their participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for Texas caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide to cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a better participant in Texas caving. I coined a phrase in 1969, As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the TSA. I think that is still true today. If The TEXAS CAVER is made
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Really think we should put that over Cavetex? On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:14 AM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: So, copy and paste this following message and forward it to whatever related posts: I motion to table this discussion and refer it to the Free Texas Caver committee to be discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting where registered members present can vote for a majority. Include meeting location details if desired. On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand in hand with this? I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard cover should have to pay for that privilege :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills. Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun and simple, right? You in? On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago. Isn't that why you have geek friends? On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers. On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down the ideas. No, went to AM for a few years for comp sci and switched to an aeronautical school to get my pilot's license. Am back in computers tho, LOL :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably have material prepared as well On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think that it will bring in more members in the long run. The information should be free. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for him though(you)-i wont On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year or so, about the $100 donation. I also seem to remark about matching that, and I'll stand by it. I'll donate $100 as well. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME. I am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers. They do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be better cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And their participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for Texas caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide to cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a better participant in Texas caving. I
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Yes. Ive been sick for 4 days- ive been thinking a lot. Wish I had been in bed the whole time, no luck though On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Really think we should put that over Cavetex? On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:14 AM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: So, copy and paste this following message and forward it to whatever related posts: I motion to table this discussion and refer it to the Free Texas Caver committee to be discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting where registered members present can vote for a majority. Include meeting location details if desired. On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand in hand with this? I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard cover should have to pay for that privilege :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills. Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun and simple, right? You in? On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago. Isn't that why you have geek friends? On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers. On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down the ideas. No, went to AM for a few years for comp sci and switched to an aeronautical school to get my pilot's license. Am back in computers tho, LOL :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably have material prepared as well On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think that it will bring in more members in the long run. The information should be free. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for him though(you)-i wont On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year or so, about the $100 donation. I also seem to remark about matching that, and I'll stand by it. I'll donate $100 as well. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME. I am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers. They do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be better cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And their participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for Texas caving.
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
have you had this discussion with anyone else? On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:20 AM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Yes. Ive been sick for 4 days- ive been thinking a lot. Wish I had been in bed the whole time, no luck though On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Really think we should put that over Cavetex? On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:14 AM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: So, copy and paste this following message and forward it to whatever related posts: I motion to table this discussion and refer it to the Free Texas Caver committee to be discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting where registered members present can vote for a majority. Include meeting location details if desired. On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand in hand with this? I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard cover should have to pay for that privilege :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills. Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun and simple, right? You in? On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago. Isn't that why you have geek friends? On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers. On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down the ideas. No, went to AM for a few years for comp sci and switched to an aeronautical school to get my pilot's license. Am back in computers tho, LOL :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably have material prepared as well On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think that it will bring in more members in the long run. The information should be free. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for him though(you)-i wont On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year or so, about the $100 donation. I also seem to remark about matching that, and I'll stand by it. I'll donate $100 as well. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME. I am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers. They do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be better cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving community, if they simply read and
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
I suggested all this to Mark and that we discuss it in Jan. He is cool w/ it. Jerry wants resolution...your post would be the answer everyone is waiting for On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: have you had this discussion with anyone else? On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:20 AM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Yes. Ive been sick for 4 days- ive been thinking a lot. Wish I had been in bed the whole time, no luck though On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Really think we should put that over Cavetex? On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:14 AM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: So, copy and paste this following message and forward it to whatever related posts: I motion to table this discussion and refer it to the Free Texas Caver committee to be discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting where registered members present can vote for a majority. Include meeting location details if desired. On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand in hand with this? I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard cover should have to pay for that privilege :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills. Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun and simple, right? You in? On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago. Isn't that why you have geek friends? On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers. On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down the ideas. No, went to AM for a few years for comp sci and switched to an aeronautical school to get my pilot's license. Am back in computers tho, LOL :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably have material prepared as well On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think that it will bring in more members in the long run. The information should be free. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for him though(you)-i wont On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year or so, about the $100 donation. I also seem to remark about matching that, and I'll stand by it. I'll donate $100 as well. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME. I am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER because I will benefit from them being
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Im sure we can come to an easy agreement at the meeting. The sentence I sent you to forward is very broad and we can add details to the actuall motion as the meeting day approaches. Just dont add or subtract from what I recommended for you to post. You could add... Silence is consent. That would be a nice touch On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: have you had this discussion with anyone else? On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:20 AM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Yes. Ive been sick for 4 days- ive been thinking a lot. Wish I had been in bed the whole time, no luck though On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Really think we should put that over Cavetex? On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:14 AM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: So, copy and paste this following message and forward it to whatever related posts: I motion to table this discussion and refer it to the Free Texas Caver committee to be discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting where registered members present can vote for a majority. Include meeting location details if desired. On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand in hand with this? I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard cover should have to pay for that privilege :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills. Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun and simple, right? You in? On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago. Isn't that why you have geek friends? On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers. On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down the ideas. No, went to AM for a few years for comp sci and switched to an aeronautical school to get my pilot's license. Am back in computers tho, LOL :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably have material prepared as well On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think that it will bring in more members in the long run. The information should be free. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for him though(you)-i wont On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year or so, about the $100 donation. I also seem to remark about matching that, and I'll stand by it. I'll donate $100 as well. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Ttyl. Sleep time On 12/15/09, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Im sure we can come to an easy agreement at the meeting. The sentence I sent you to forward is very broad and we can add details to the actuall motion as the meeting day approaches. Just dont add or subtract from what I recommended for you to post. You could add... Silence is consent. That would be a nice touch On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: have you had this discussion with anyone else? On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:20 AM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Yes. Ive been sick for 4 days- ive been thinking a lot. Wish I had been in bed the whole time, no luck though On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Really think we should put that over Cavetex? On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:14 AM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: So, copy and paste this following message and forward it to whatever related posts: I motion to table this discussion and refer it to the Free Texas Caver committee to be discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting where registered members present can vote for a majority. Include meeting location details if desired. On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand in hand with this? I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard cover should have to pay for that privilege :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills. Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun and simple, right? You in? On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago. Isn't that why you have geek friends? On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers. On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down the ideas. No, went to AM for a few years for comp sci and switched to an aeronautical school to get my pilot's license. Am back in computers tho, LOL :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably have material prepared as well On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think that it will bring in more members in the long run. The information should be free. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for him though(you)-i wont On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year or so, about the $100 donation. I also seem to remark about matching that, and I'll stand by it. I'll donate $100 as well. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and participating personally
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Good night On Dec 15, 2009, at 12:38 AM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Ttyl. Sleep time On 12/15/09, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Im sure we can come to an easy agreement at the meeting. The sentence I sent you to forward is very broad and we can add details to the actuall motion as the meeting day approaches. Just dont add or subtract from what I recommended for you to post. You could add... Silence is consent. That would be a nice touch On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: have you had this discussion with anyone else? On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:20 AM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Yes. Ive been sick for 4 days- ive been thinking a lot. Wish I had been in bed the whole time, no luck though On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Really think we should put that over Cavetex? On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:14 AM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: So, copy and paste this following message and forward it to whatever related posts: I motion to table this discussion and refer it to the Free Texas Caver committee to be discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting where registered members present can vote for a majority. Include meeting location details if desired. On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand in hand with this? I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard cover should have to pay for that privilege :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills. Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun and simple, right? You in? On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago. Isn't that why you have geek friends? On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers. On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down the ideas. No, went to AM for a few years for comp sci and switched to an aeronautical school to get my pilot's license. Am back in computers tho, LOL :) On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably have material prepared as well On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think that it will bring in more members in the long run. The information should be free. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) ellie.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for him though(you)-i wont On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year or so, about the $100 donation. I also seem to remark about matching that, and I'll stand by it. I'll donate $100 as well. Charles On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming events which they can support by attending,
[Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action
I've been donating to Clean Water Action since 2000, and they are still a viable national organization with a Texas chapter based in Austin: http://www.cleanwateraction.org/tx The first thing that impressed me was they still have people going door to door once a year, at least in south Austin where Gill and I live. Although Annalisa of GEAA said CWA does not get involved in local issues, the issues on their website include: "The Coming Crisis: Water Availability and Municipal Conservation Efforts in Central Texas", "Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy" "Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels', and Georgetown's] Mayor and City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy" "Increase Funding for State Parks" "Get The Mercury Out Of Our Skies And Water" "Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants" Obviously they are an advocacy/lobbying group, so donations are not tax-deductible. I agree with Stephan that it seems like there is a lot of duplication of effort among the plethora of environmental groups, but many of the smaller groups are devoted to a specific geographic area or issue, and cannot actively lobby, unlike CWA. Logan George Veni wrote: Clean Water Action has been working in the Austin and San Antonio areas since at least the mid-1980s. They have worked to lobby government and agencies, and work cooperatively with other green groups to prevent water degradation. I havent seen them much in the past 10 years and dont know if the organization crashed and is now recovering or if it simply got diverted to other projects in other areas. George From: bgillegi...@gmail.com [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill Edigar Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:39 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water RE: Clean Water Action A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called 'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean water is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the world it would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks from folks with good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to keep up with every environmental interest group that comes along. I gave them a few bucks and signed their petition and filled out a personal data card. A few days ago I got a phone call from them asking for a pretty good slug of money. I asked for more information. A letter followed but with nebulous details. Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with SOS, the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that some of our cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their good work? Etc, etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them, but I've never heard of them before and want a better idea of who they are and what they really do. --Ediger - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action
Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels', and Georgetown's] Mayor and City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants I love political activists who are very specific on shutting down energy production but very vague on creating it, e.g. Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy How about donate to build power lines to the T. Boons Pickins wind farms or research fund for cellulosic ethanol. Sorry, what was this about? Clean water? Yes, which goes to caves, and we don't have enough of it. Down with nuclear energy!! ~~T From: Logan McNatt lmcn...@austin.rr.com To: George Veni gv...@warpdriveonline.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Mon, December 14, 2009 4:51:20 PM Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action I've been donating to Clean Water Action since 2000, and they are still a viable national organization with a Texas chapter based in Austin: http://www.cleanwateraction.org/tx The first thing that impressed me was they still have people going door to door once a year, at least in south Austin where Gill and I live. Although Annalisa of GEAA said CWA does not get involved in local issues, the issues on their website include: The Coming Crisis: Water Availability and Municipal Conservation Efforts in Central Texas, Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels', and Georgetown's] Mayor and City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy Increase Funding for State Parks Get The Mercury Out Of Our Skies And Water Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants Obviously they are an advocacy/lobbying group, so donations are not tax-deductible. I agree with Stephan that it seems like there is a lot of duplication of effort among the plethora of environmental groups, but many of the smaller groups are devoted to a specific geographic area or issue, and cannot actively lobby, unlike CWA. Logan George Veni wrote: Clean Water Action has been working in the Austin and San Antonio areas since at least the mid-1980s. They have worked to lobby government and agencies, and work cooperatively with other green groups to prevent water degradation. I haven’t seen them much in the past 10 years and don’t know if the organization crashed and is now recovering or if it simply got diverted to other projects in other areas. George From:bgillegi...@gmail.com [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill Edigar Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:39 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water RE: Clean Water Action A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called 'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean water is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the world it would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks from folks with good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to keep up with every environmental interest group that comes along. I gave them a few bucks and signed their petition and filled out a personal data card. A few days ago I got a phone call from them asking for a pretty good slug of money. I asked for more information. A letter followed but with nebulous details. Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with SOS, the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that some of our cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their good work? Etc, etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them, but I've never heard of them before and want a better idea of who they are and what they really do. --Ediger - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action
Sorry, I must take an opposing view. I consider myself an environmentalist but if there really is such a thing as clean coal technology I am for it. We have plenty of it. I also think that generating electricity from nuclear energy makes good sense. The best solution may be natural gas but our federal government needs to wake up to the fact that to get it we must drill for it as well as for oil as we will never be without the need for this commodity. It is crazy to be importing it from our enemies. No one loves our Texas Hill Country more than I but I don't believe that these activities will be harmful if sensibly regulated which does not mean banning them. I believe that cavers who owned a tract of land would accept a very lucrative offer to lease it for oil and gas exploration. That's not greed, its good sense. Let the naysayers come forth. Fritz From: Thomas Sitch [mailto:dreadfl...@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 5:23 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels', and Georgetown's] Mayor and City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants I love political activists who are very specific on shutting down energy production but very vague on creating it, e.g. Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy How about donate to build power lines to the T. Boons Pickins wind farms or research fund for cellulosic ethanol. Sorry, what was this about? Clean water? Yes, which goes to caves, and we don't have enough of it. Down with nuclear energy!! ~~T From: Logan McNatt lmcn...@austin.rr.com To: George Veni gv...@warpdriveonline.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Mon, December 14, 2009 4:51:20 PM Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action I've been donating to Clean Water Action since 2000, and they are still a viable national organization with a Texas chapter based in Austin: http://www.cleanwateraction.org/tx The first thing that impressed me was they still have people going door to door once a year, at least in south Austin where Gill and I live. Although Annalisa of GEAA said CWA does not get involved in local issues, the issues on their website include: The Coming Crisis: Water Availability and Municipal Conservation Efforts in Central Texas, Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels', and Georgetown's] Mayor and City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy Increase Funding for State Parks Get The Mercury Out Of Our Skies And Water Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants Obviously they are an advocacy/lobbying group, so donations are not tax-deductible. I agree with Stephan that it seems like there is a lot of duplication of effort among the plethora of environmental groups, but many of the smaller groups are devoted to a specific geographic area or issue, and cannot actively lobby, unlike CWA. Logan George Veni wrote: Clean Water Action has been working in the Austin and San Antonio areas since at least the mid-1980s. They have worked to lobby government and agencies, and work cooperatively with other green groups to prevent water degradation. I haven't seen them much in the past 10 years and don't know if the organization crashed and is now recovering or if it simply got diverted to other projects in other areas. George From: bgillegi...@gmail.commailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill Edigar Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:39 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.commailto:texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water RE: Clean Water Action A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called 'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean water is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the world it would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks from folks with good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to keep up with every environmental interest group that comes along. I gave them a few bucks and signed their petition and filled out a personal data card. A few days ago I got a phone call from them asking for a pretty good slug of money. I asked for more information. A letter followed but with nebulous details. Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with SOS, the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that some of our cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their good work? Etc, etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them, but I've never heard of them before
[Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver reminds me of a related issue: Is it safe to give your email address to TSA? For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this same period, however, I have been providing my email address (along with mailing address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in their UT Grotto Phone List. Why is it that I have felt that my email address was sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The answer is that the UT Grotto Phone List is published only in paper form, where email addresses and other personal information is not likely to be harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search engines, etc. I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years, I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital publication without adequately considering the negative consequences of what they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard from time to time that TSA publish its membership list information electronically, perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might be cheap and convenient for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use, but it also could make our personal information much more vulnerable to automated harvesting by those who would use it in ways we never intended. Once our email addresses, cell phone numbers, etc. have been harvested from a digitally published list, there would be no cheap and convenient way to undo the damage. How can we be confident that the continuing push towards digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill considered digital publication of email addresses and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting? Rod - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
Well, the TSA does have an online listing of the electronically registered membership on its website. It's a password protected site. Jerry. In a message dated 12/14/2009 2:05:11 A.M. Central Standard Time, rod.g...@earthlink.net writes: All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver reminds me of a related issue: Is it safe to give your email address to TSA? For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this same period, however, I have been providing my email address (along with mailing address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in their UT Grotto Phone List. Why is it that I have felt that my email address was sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The answer is that the UT Grotto Phone List is published only in paper form, where email addresses and other personal information is not likely to be harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search engines, etc. I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years, I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital publication without adequately considering the negative consequences of what they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard from time to time that TSA publish its membership list information electronically, perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might be cheap and convenient for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use, but it also could make our personal information much more vulnerable to automated harvesting by those who would use it in ways we never intended. Once our email addresses, cell phone numbers, etc. have been harvested from a digitally published list, there would be no cheap and convenient way to undo the damage. How can we be confident that the continuing push towards digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill considered digital publication of email addresses and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting? Rod
Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
Rod, My ca...@caver.net email address gets a spam email message every 2 to 3 seconds... literally thousands per hour... all of it goes into a spam folder and good spam sorting software on the email server helps me figure what is crap and what is not... End of the day I am deleting a lot of spam... If someone were to go after the companies who are advertisng the drugs, diplomas and sex services then it mifght help curb it. I feel that a complete overhaul of how email works wouold be the answer, since you can currently send from and have the reply to address be different. A lot of the spam I gets looks as if it is coming to me from me... but buried in the header I find that it comes from Korea or China... Bill - Original Message - From: Rod Goke rod.g...@earthlink.net To: TexasCavers texascavers@texascavers.com Cc: Rod Goke rod.g...@ieee.org Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:04 AM Subject: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses? All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver reminds me of a related issue: Is it safe to give your email address to TSA? For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this same period, however, I have been providing my email address (along with mailing address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in their UT Grotto Phone List. Why is it that I have felt that my email address was sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The answer is that the UT Grotto Phone List is published only in paper form, where email addresses and other personal information is not likely to be harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search engines, etc. I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years, I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital publication without adequately considering the negative consequences of what they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard from time to time that TSA publish its membership list information electronically, perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might be cheap and convenient for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use, but it also could make our personal information much more vulnerable to automated harvesting by those who would use it in ways we never intended. Once our email addresses, cell phone numbers, etc. have been harvested from a digitally published list, there would be no cheap and convenient way to undo the damage. How can we be confident that the continuing push towards digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill considered digital publication of email addresses and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting? Rod - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
The TSA has my e mail.and I getoh maybe one or two junk mail messages per WEEK. Paranoia runs deep concerning e mail spam. But unjustly condemning the TSA for something they are not doing or really at fault for..hardly seems fair or reasonable. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2009, at 6:37 AM, Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net wrote: Rod, My ca...@caver.net email address gets a spam email message every 2 to 3 seconds... literally thousands per hour... all of it goes into a spam folder and good spam sorting software on the email server helps me figure what is crap and what is not... End of the day I am deleting a lot of spam... If someone were to go after the companies who are advertisng the drugs, diplomas and sex services then it mifght help curb it. I feel that a complete overhaul of how email works wouold be the answer, since you can currently send from and have the reply to address be different. A lot of the spam I gets looks as if it is coming to me from me... but buried in the header I find that it comes from Korea or China... Bill - Original Message - From: Rod Goke rod.g...@earthlink.net To: TexasCavers texascavers@texascavers.com Cc: Rod Goke rod.g...@ieee.org Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:04 AM Subject: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses? All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver reminds me of a related issue: Is it safe to give your email address to TSA? For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this same period, however, I have been providing my email address (along with mailing address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in their UT Grotto Phone List. Why is it that I have felt that my email address was sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The answer is that the UT Grotto Phone List is published only in paper form, where email addresses and other personal information is not likely to be harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search engines, etc. I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years, I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital publication without adequately considering the negative consequences of what they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard from time to time that TSA publish its membership list information electronically, perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might be cheap and convenient for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use, but it also could make our personal information much more vulnerable to automated harvesting by those who would use it in ways we never intended. Once our email addresses, cell phone numbers, etc. have been harvested from a digitally published list, there would be no cheap and convenient way to undo the damage. How can we be confident that the continuing push towards digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill considered digital publication of email addresses and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting? Rod - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
For the record Mark, I wasn't blaming nor condeming the TSA, I was just stating the fact that I get hundreds of thousands of spam emails. Mark, I like the TSA and I think I get my moneys worth from volunteers who are very much appreciated. Bill - Original Message - From: John Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net To: Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net Cc: Rod Goke rod.g...@ieee.org; TexasCavers texascavers@texascavers.com; Rod Goke rod.g...@ieee.org Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses? The TSA has my e mail.and I getoh maybe one or two junk mail messages per WEEK. Paranoia runs deep concerning e mail spam. But unjustly condemning the TSA for something they are not doing or really at fault for..hardly seems fair or reasonable. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2009, at 6:37 AM, Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net wrote: Rod, My ca...@caver.net email address gets a spam email message every 2 to 3 seconds... literally thousands per hour... all of it goes into a spam folder and good spam sorting software on the email server helps me figure what is crap and what is not... End of the day I am deleting a lot of spam... If someone were to go after the companies who are advertisng the drugs, diplomas and sex services then it mifght help curb it. I feel that a complete overhaul of how email works wouold be the answer, since you can currently send from and have the reply to address be different. A lot of the spam I gets looks as if it is coming to me from me... but buried in the header I find that it comes from Korea or China... Bill - Original Message - From: Rod Goke rod.g...@earthlink.net To: TexasCavers texascavers@texascavers.com Cc: Rod Goke rod.g...@ieee.org Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:04 AM Subject: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses? All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver reminds me of a related issue: Is it safe to give your email address to TSA? For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this same period, however, I have been providing my email address (along with mailing address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in their UT Grotto Phone List. Why is it that I have felt that my email address was sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The answer is that the UT Grotto Phone List is published only in paper form, where email addresses and other personal information is not likely to be harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search engines, etc. I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years, I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital publication without adequately considering the negative consequences of what they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard from time to time that TSA publish its membership list information electronically, perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might be cheap and convenient for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use, but it also could make our personal information much more vulnerable to automated harvesting by those who would use it in ways we never intended. Once our email addresses, cell phone numbers, etc. have been harvested from a digitally published list, there would be no cheap and convenient way to undo the damage. How can we be confident that the continuing push towards digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill considered digital publication of email addresses and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting? Rod - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
