Re: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave
Don't know. I heard rumors that the reason that Holy Sheep was open only to one trip a year was because the geiger counter had registered either max, or close to it. Paha Sapa Grotto in Wyoming would have a better idea, but I was hoping that someone here, including Donald Davis, could give some thought to it. Carl….. On Jul 24, 2014, at 10:56 PM, Louise Power wrote: Has anyone taken a geiger counter with them on a trip? Louise From: pagan...@comcast.net Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 19:24:49 -0600 To: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave Used to go to Armpit in the 90's. At that time, there was a shack that cavers sometimes used. Bighorn and Horsethief caves were visited. There was a rumor that the uranium that was taken from the area was so rich that it was flown out. Also a cave there, named Holy Sheep, that was so hot that the cavers were limited to one visit per year. Any truth to that? Carl…. On Jul 24, 2014, at 4:46 PM, Bilbo, Michael Bilbo wrote: Interesting on the creepiness. What's kind of creepy is the high levels of radiation in the caves around there and I imagine the Trap too. I wonder if they'll be staying in the nearby town of Armpit? Definitely a town to visit when you're in that neighborhood - it's a cavers' town and the building(s) well-stocked with stuff for cavers... On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:47 AM, Louise Power power_lou...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi Lee, You beat me to this. Here's a link to the online story: http://news.msn.com/us/wyoming-cave-with-fossil-secrets-to-be-excavated Louise Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 08:53:16 -0600 From: skin...@thuntek.net To: s...@caver.net; texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave Natural Trap Cave reopens: Channel 7 Denver: http://tinyurl.com/lsuek4l Fox News: http://tinyurl.com/mra8rnl Lee Skinner ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET -- Mike Bilbo, Cave Specialist Leave No Trace Master Educator BLM-Roswell Field Office C 575-420-7121, W 575-627-0222 Fort Stanton NCA HQ 575-354-0099 mbi...@blm.gov ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Is this hole that appeared in Siberia a sinkhole or a blowout
In all seriousness. If it were a meteor strike, or something did blow up, within the last ? years, wouldn't it have registered as a seismic event? The place for that is in Boulder CO, and they can pick up stuff from all over the world. That's partially I think how they measure wether someone has set off an underground nuc. Carl…. On Jul 15, 2014, at 4:16 PM, DONALD G. DAVIS wrote: Michael Lorimer mikel78...@gmail.com wrote: font face=Times New RomanIt looks like a sinkfont face=Times New Romanhole or font face=Times New Romansome kind of collapse from the air.nbsp; However, an oblique view looks like there is elevation along the sides, which would imply an explosion.nbsp; What font face=Times New Romando you thinkfont face=Times New Roman?br http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2693105/Giant-hole-appea rs-Siberia-Huge-crater-emerges-end-world.html It certainly looks obvious that something blew up from below, but I'm not sure that the volume of ejecta is as large as the void below appears. It would help to know more about the geology, hydrology, and water-table level in the region (is the lake in the distance above or below the bottom of the pit)? If warming-driven methane degassing can cause an explosive event that large, that's scary. I'll be interested to know what the Russians conclude from the promised investigation. --Donald ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] rope age
I have a rope that is 12 years old also When new it was tested to about 7,200 pounds. It is a static line, always stored a cool low humidity place (my garage), or in the house, hardly used, no caterpillaring, never wet. Is there a place to get a piece of it tested? It is a 200 foot rope. Might have to retire it. Carl... On Jul 1, 2014, at 9:58 AM, Robert Wood wrote: Just a heads up. I have a dynamic rope that has barely been used and it is about 12 years old. 12 years X 2% = 24% loss from age. Still has plenty of 10 : 1 strength but reminds me to stay aware of age of ropes. I wonder if our really hot weather affects them when stored in the garage or shed? Rob HOMEABOUT USORIGINSSPONSORSHIPPEOPLEVENDOR CODE OF CONDUCTTESTINGISO 9001LINKSPRODUCTSTRAININGCOURSESTRAINING SCHEDULETRAINING REGISTRATIONSERVICESFAQMYTH BUSTERSTECH TIPSEVENTSPHOTOSCONTACT Myth # 15: Rope strength can be determined by looking at the manufacturer’s documents. NO! Rope strength includes the calculation of 3 factors every time a rope is used. Knots! A knot will reduce the strength of your rigging by approximately 1/3 of the rope‘s strength. Wet/Dry! Nylon rope will lose 15% of its strength when wet. Polyester loses no strength when wet. Age! A rope loses about 2% of its strength per year even when it is kept in a like-new condition , even if it has never been used. These three are allotted for when using the 10 to 1 safety margin. Unless any of the three are excessive, i.e. a 20 year old wet rope with an overhand knot (50-55% efficiency) can push a rope beyond its life support abilities. ( -40% age- 15% wet, -45% knot) = 0 strength. ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] rope age
Thanks. Sounds like the best advice of all. Carl…. On Jul 1, 2014, at 11:56 AM, Wm Shrewsbury wrote: While PMI (Pigeon Mountain Industries, pmirope.com) has a drop tower and could possibly test this for you, a review of their rope-care guide for 11mm Pit Rope, page 11, says “RETIRE IMMEDIATELY any rope which is greater than 10 years old, regardless of history and usage.” And continues on page 12 with “Life spans of static low stretch ropes are a maximum of 10 years from date of manufacture and are greatly dependent upon use, storage, and other variables.” You can find your exact rope here: http://pmirope.com/professional/learn/product-resources/instructions/ Wm Shrewsbury President, National Speleological Society From: SWR [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of Carl Pagano Sent: Tuesday, July 1, 2014 1:39 PM To: Robert Wood Cc: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] rope age I have a rope that is 12 years old also When new it was tested to about 7,200 pounds. It is a static line, always stored a cool low humidity place (my garage), or in the house, hardly used, no caterpillaring, never wet. Is there a place to get a piece of it tested? It is a 200 foot rope. Might have to retire it. Carl... On Jul 1, 2014, at 9:58 AM, Robert Wood wrote: Just a heads up. I have a dynamic rope that has barely been used and it is about 12 years old. 12 years X 2% = 24% loss from age. Still has plenty of 10 : 1 strength but reminds me to stay aware of age of ropes. I wonder if our really hot weather affects them when stored in the garage or shed? Rob · HOME · ABOUT US oORIGINS oSPONSORSHIP oPEOPLE oVENDOR CODE OF CONDUCT oTESTING oISO 9001 oLINKS · PRODUCTS · TRAINING oCOURSES oTRAINING SCHEDULE oTRAINING REGISTRATION · SERVICES · FAQ oMYTH BUSTERS oTECH TIPS · EVENTS · PHOTOS · CONTACT Myth # 15: Rope strength can be determined by looking at the manufacturer’s documents. NO! Rope strength includes the calculation of 3 factors every time a rope is used. Knots! A knot will reduce the strength of your rigging by approximately 1/3 of the rope‘s strength. Wet/Dry! Nylon rope will lose 15% of its strength when wet. Polyester loses no strength when wet. Age! A rope loses about 2% of its strength per year even when it is kept in a like-new condition , even if it has never been used. These three are allotted for when using the 10 to 1 safety margin. Unless any of the three are excessive, i.e. a 20 year old wet rope with an overhand knot (50-55% efficiency) can push a rope beyond its life support abilities. ( -40% age- 15% wet, -45% knot) = 0 strength. ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] rope age
Not sure if I would trust a rope with 2020 breaking strength. I speculate only that the gentle continuous weight of the decent wouldn't be the ground breaker (bad pun) but the ascent. It would be an interesting experiment/study to find out just how much load is exerted per stride say, while ascending with a rope walker system for an average? 180 pound caver. Again I speculate only that that is where the most shock load to the rope might occur. I would think (except as has been stated, at the knot), that it would be fairly continuous repetitive, depending on how long the ascent and how fast the ascending caver. From there, better concussions could be made. I make no claim to know that kind of physics. . Does anyone have an idea as to the amount of shock force per stride on a static line rope while ascending? Last, and another speculation: does humidity influence the strength of a rope directly? Is there such as thing as too dry? i.e. here in New Mexico, we have rot, but dry rot, because of the lack of humidity. Again, if it hasn't been experimented with, or tested as such, another interesting study unless someone already has the data. Carl…. P.S. In deference to Steve Peerman, I felt it necessary to leave the posts below intact so others can see what has been said. Bad e mail etiquette on my part though….. On Jul 1, 2014, at 10:24 PM, Bob Buecher wrote: I see that the example in “Myth #15” is incorrect. It states that a rope 20 years old would lose 2% of it’s strength per year or have only 60% of its initial strength. A further loss of 15% is caused if it is wet. (note this strength loss is ONLY WHILE IT IS WET, when it dries out it goes back to strength it had before wetting). Now we come to the problem, knot strength reduction. As stated a knot may cause the rope to lose 45% of its strength. This is correct but it applies to the current strength, not the original strength. So the equation should have been (40% +15%)*45% = 20% not zero! A rope that initially had a strength of 7200 pounds would have a strength of 7200 – (2% * 20yr) = 4320 pounds current breaking strength. This is reduced by 15% if it is wet, 4320 – (4320 * 15%) = 3672 pounds breaking strength when wet. Now add a knot that takes away 45% of the strength, 3672 – (3672 * 45%) = 2020 pounds breaking strength. That is 28% of the initial strength, not zero! I’ll leave it up to you to decide if you would trust your life on a rope with a breaking strength of 2000 pounds. Bob Buecher From: Carl Pagano Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 11:34 AM To: presid...@caves.org Cc: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] rope age Thanks. Sounds like the best advice of all. Carl…. On Jul 1, 2014, at 11:56 AM, Wm Shrewsbury wrote: While PMI (Pigeon Mountain Industries, pmirope.com) has a drop tower and could possibly test this for you, a review of their rope-care guide for 11mm Pit Rope, page 11, says “RETIRE IMMEDIATELY any rope which is greater than 10 years old, regardless of history and usage.” And continues on page 12 with “Life spans of static low stretch ropes are a maximum of 10 years from date of manufacture and are greatly dependent upon use, storage, and other variables.” You can find your exact rope here: http://pmirope.com/professional/learn/product-resources/instructions/ Wm Shrewsbury President, National Speleological Society From: SWR [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of Carl Pagano Sent: Tuesday, July 1, 2014 1:39 PM To: Robert Wood Cc: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] rope age I have a rope that is 12 years old also When new it was tested to about 7,200 pounds. It is a static line, always stored a cool low humidity place (my garage), or in the house, hardly used, no caterpillaring, never wet. Is there a place to get a piece of it tested? It is a 200 foot rope. Might have to retire it. Carl... On Jul 1, 2014, at 9:58 AM, Robert Wood wrote: Just a heads up. I have a dynamic rope that has barely been used and it is about 12 years old. 12 years X 2% = 24% loss from age. Still has plenty of 10 : 1 strength but reminds me to stay aware of age of ropes. I wonder if our really hot weather affects them when stored in the garage or shed? Rob · HOME · ABOUT US oORIGINS oSPONSORSHIP oPEOPLE oVENDOR CODE OF CONDUCT oTESTING oISO 9001 oLINKS · PRODUCTS · TRAINING oCOURSES oTRAINING SCHEDULE oTRAINING REGISTRATION · SERVICES · FAQ oMYTH BUSTERS oTECH TIPS · EVENTS · PHOTOS · CONTACT Myth # 15: Rope strength can be determined by looking at the manufacturer’s documents. NO! Rope strength includes the calculation of 3 factors every time a rope is used. Knots! A knot will reduce the strength of your rigging by approximately 1/3
Re: [SWR] E-mail etiquette
How true. Didn't know I was SHOUTING with capitals. just used them to get your attention and make a point… However, I will refrain from them in the future……As for the emoticons they're cool….Maybe Fleming can find some with a hand sticking out of his plane, saying cool, or even a banner behind it….. Actually, the beer mugs say it all…… Carl….. On Jun 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Steve Peerman wrote: It looks like someone just figured out how to use emoticons (another pet peeve.) :-) Re: FSCSP --- Got to have some diversions some time . . . On Jun 30, 2014, at 11:20 AM, Stephen Fleming wrote: On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 9:26 AM, Steve Peerman gypca...@comcast.net wrote: Here are some of my pet peeves regarding e-mail: 1) Not responding to an e-mail message directed to you. The courteous thing to do when you get a message from someone directed to you is to respond in some fashion. It might be just, Thanks . . .. but at least the sender knows you saw his message. Of course, sometimes messages are sent to several recipients and your specific reply is not necessary, but it still might be the thoughtful thing to do. You're absolutely right. Message received. It appears you had a bit of down time to work on something other than the FSCSP? Thanks for the tips! Stephen Steve Peerman Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. attributed to Mark Twain, but no record exists of his having written this. ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[SWR] Fwd: Bat hibernation
I agree with Mike Flannigan and his post below. To Ms. Buecher: Using the words rant, and shoot off your mouth are not conducive to any e mail conversation, and are themselves ranting, and shooting off your mouth. This is emotion based, and as always, has no validity. That I would have hoped would been beneath you. Yes, perhaps NM caves do have the same climate suitable for Pseudogymnoascus destructans to flourish as other places. How many other places-throughout the WORLD- have the same climate? Is your implication here, however INVALID, that it just rises up out of nowhere, simply because the climate is right? Is there any EMPIRICAL evidence for this? Perhaps hysteria? NO, it doesn't take a genius to figure this out-even a mere caver can do it. The heart of the WNS discussion is the issue of the closure of caves because of fear that humans are the primary vector of WNS. Please, Ms. Buecher, to you and other scientists, show EMPERICAL evidence that this is so. Please show empirical evidence that humans have been the primary, if not only vector of WNS. If not, then it is from purely theory or pure logic that you make your inferences. Logic does work, but NOT if it is flawed logic. This is why, as you must know, that empirical evidence is a must. A scientific conclusion must be verifiable, repeatable by experiment, and objective. It cannot be subjective, based on inference, false extrapolation or flawed logic. I cite webster's online dictionary for the word empirical for your benefit, and others. It is a good read. http://www.merriam-webster.com em·pir·i·cal adjective \im-ˈpir-i-kəl\ : based on testing or experience Full Definition of EMPIRICAL 1 : originating in or based on observation or experienceempirical data 2 : relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory an empirical basis for the theory 3 : capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment empirical laws I also cite the definition of scientific method, also from webster's online : Definition of SCIENTIFIC METHOD : principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses. The hypothesis in order to be VALID, must be testable, and repeatable. Please note #3 of the definition empirical. Once again, please show that you have done this before you accuse anyone of ranting and shooting off their mouth. Finally; An apology might be in order. Regards, Carl Pagano, SWR Caver Begin forwarded message: From: Mike Flannigan mikef...@att.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Bat hibernation Date: June 12, 2014 5:52:35 AM MDT To: s...@caver.net It isn't that hard to understand. Quite clear actually. He stated facts about the USGS and then some opinions from Wildlife Department biologists and himself. You obviously don't agree, so you use words like rant and shoot off their mouth. You might want to change your field of study to global warming. You'd fit right in with that scientific crowd. Mike On 6/11/2014 9:25 PM, Debbie Buecher wrote: Hi Steve, I could not entirely understand your most recent rant but that is not entirely new. I have REAL scientific data that I have presented a number of times at SWR paper regionals that documents bat hibernacula microclimate data (temperatures and RH) from both AZ and NM bat roosts. It shows conclusively that these caves have appropriate microclimate for Pseudogymnoascus destructans to flourish. I am currently preparing a manuscript for a peer-reviewed journal to report these findings. If you were a scientist you would understand the rigorous protocols that scientists must follow in order to publish findings. Cavers are more fortunate because they are free to shoot off their mouth without checking with anyone first. Cheers, Debbie Debbie Buecher Buecher Biological Consulting Stephen Fleming casto...@gmail.com wrote: On 06/11/2014 7:17, Debbie Buecher wrote: Hi ET, The cave myotis in southern Arizona go up in elevation and enter hibernation in late Sept and come out in April. Myotis are the hardest hit back east so we have real concerns for their counterparts in the West. Debbie Your statement about cave myotis is deflated by the May 6, 2014 press release from the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife Conservation noting that not only had scientists with the U.S. Geological Survey National Wildlife Health Center have dropped Oklahoma from the list of areas where White-Nose Syndrome in bats has been suspected or confirmed. But, The scientists have also removed the Cave Myotis (Myotis velifer) from the list of bat species that have tested positive for the fungus (Pseudogymnoascus destructans) that has been associated with White-Nose Syndrome
[SWR] Threads so far/bullying…..
To set the record straight: Bullying, or being bullied, according to www.meriam-webster.com, is to treat abusively, to affect by means of coercion, to use browbeating language or behavior. Filing a FOIA request, or having one or 10,000 individuals send respectful e mails from to one or more BLM and or state officials is not bullying. To paraphrase Linda Sanchez in a recent post, it is a beautiful part of this country- TO BE HEARD, whether in a town hall meeting, or as an individual participating in threads on the SWR list-or sending a respectful e mail request to a BLM or for that matter any government official-it is YOUR RIGHT. EXERCISING THAT RIGHT ALLOWS YOU TO KEEP THAT RIGHT. When policies, procedures, or laws are clearly unjust, there are ways in which to ask that they be rectified. When we as a people, or in this case as a community of cavers, allow ourselves to be administered to by BLM or ANY government administrator in ways we perceive to be unjust, and DO NOT stand up (respectfully) to be heard, we lose part of ourselves. We become less of a democracy. We become less of ourselves. FYI regarding respect: It is Mr. Jesse Juan, STATE DIRECTOR of the BLM. He has earned that title, and should be addressed as such, as should any government official e mailed to. Filing of the FOIA, and the sending of e mails to BLM and hopefully to State Officials, is democracy at it's best. There should be never be any fear of doing so. Carl…... ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[SWR] Fwd: Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
A llitle levity (the best I could come up with at a late hour-early apologies for this) Roughly-best sung to a popular Beatles song only in the company of those you trust Someone hada cup o' tea, and they went into a cave, didn't clean their boots and a biologist began to rave, (didn't clean their boots cause the mud was in their eye (not a butter pie), YES! SPORES ACROSS THE WATER, WATER, SPORES ACROSS THE SKY AY AY AY! SPORES ACROSS THE WATER, WATER, SPORES WAY OUT IN SPA, A, A , ACE…. Not a bit o'scientific proof, and the paper had a goof -not a footnote on the page, no supporting documents, not a bit you'd think to wage, Europeans were to blame, and that is such a shame, YES SHAME… -SO- when it was found out a new debate began to rage, (footnote? HA!! who needs a footnote when you got hysteria?! )HYS-TER-I-A! NOW, when ya send an e mail, just to make it clear, a few supporting documents just to hold it dear, Be like Officer Friday on the Show DRAGNET, stick to the facts an' make it clear you bet, YOU BET! NO emotions allow'd Allowed, ALL TOGETHER NOW (please) Spores across the water, water, spores (MAYBE?) under y'r boots ya ya ya! SPORES way out in space, SPA ACE, SPORES, got on your face……. (I think there was some tambourine at this point) Respectfully, There is a message here though…… Just the facts, keep emotions to a minimum, and as has already been requested, supporting documents. Validity, and proper scientific process are important-DUH (sorry, couldn't resist). Extrapolation of data based on subjective, rather than objective data, is not valid, and never will be. As Peter Jones said Let the debate continue!! Carl Pagano…... Begin forwarded message: From: Ken Harrington ken_harring...@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas Date: May 13, 2014 12:28:33 PM MDT To: Mike Queen jmofgu...@gmail.com, Peter Jones pjca...@gwi.net Cc: Jim Evatt nmca...@comcast.net, SWR Cavers s...@caver.net, Derek Bristol derekbris...@comcast.net, Donald Davis dgda...@nyx.net, Debbie Buecher dbuec...@comcast.net Michael, While I whole heartedly agree with what you are saying I also believe strongly that the various agencies don't give a rats ass what cavers think or say. They are not going to be swayed by logic, reason or evidence that does not conform to their preconceived ideas. Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 11:58:08 -0600 From: jmofgu...@gmail.com To: pjca...@gwi.net CC: nmca...@comcast.net; s...@caver.net; dgda...@nyx.net; dbuec...@comcast.net; derekbris...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas I have a hard time seeing humans as a significant vector in the spread of WNS, and have seen no evidence that supports this as a reality, not just a possibility. This includes the initial jump across the Atlantic. If humans are a minor factor in the spread then we may expect the disease to run its course as it is spread by major vectors (bat-to-bat). Likewise, where lands in the southeast are owned by a number of entities (USFS, NPS, state lands, private lands, etc), closing any one could not possibly contain the disease. What is as disturbing as the rapid spread of WNS is the seeming bias introduced in its study. We hear repeatedly how humans are a vector even as they ignore any and all suggestions to the contrary, as for instance the paper on geographic translocation in bats. Although decon is a reasonable precaution to slow the spread of WNS, it relies on the honesty and integrity of the people signing the forms. And for cavers with boots, we can imagine that few want to soak their boots in sufficiently hot water for the requisite period of time. I might suggest (a) that, wherever possible, that sneakers should be used instead of boots, as they are more easily sterilized, and may even be thrown out after visiting an infected cave, and (b) that land management agencies, grottoes, etc., maintain sets of gear that are dedicated to a particular cave or group of caves, within which the chance of transmission by bats is high. If gear and ropes are not moved between caves or cave groups, and clothes are washed in hot water and bleached, then the chance of human transmission might be minimized even if caving in affected areas continued. I would also encourage land management agencies in the SW to follow the analytic example set by the Rocky Mountain Region in the EIS considering WNS, and not the example set by the Southern Region USFS in their proposed closure. The latter lacks transparency, employs a heavy-handed, one-size-fits-all approach, reflects more conjecture than science, and lacks accountability of ideas, data and conclusions. Furthermore
Re: [SWR] LNF sinkhole accident link
Answer is plain and simple. The world is starting to de-dilate. Reference Donald Davis's cave dilation theory. On Sep 6, 2013, at 12:48 PM, Louise Power wrote: I just read online that a sinkhole in Oklahoma swallowed a car--all passengers OK. This one was due to a broken waterline. Do I detect a trend going on nationwide? Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2013 11:21:38 -0600 From: skin...@thuntek.net To: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] LNF sinkhole accident link On 9/6/2013 10:24 AM, Carol Belski wrote: Lovington man falls in sinkhole, dies in Lincoln National Forest www.currentargus.com A 40-year-old Lovington man died while attempting to climb down a sinkhole near Forest Road 64 at the top of Hay Canyon in the Lincoln National Forest on Thursday night, Sheriff Benny House said. __ This hole should be checked out. I wonder if it may be Pinon Cave? Lee ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] The Elder One
Cyanide? On Jul 23, 2013, at 11:22 AM, dave belski wrote: All, Just to set the record straight, Ken Harrington, the rat who started all this birthday stuff, celebrates his 69th on the 24 July. It would be fitting and proper to wish him all the best. I plan to present him with a bottle of something to start the celebration. Dave ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] The Elder One
Cyanide? On Jul 23, 2013, at 11:22 AM, dave belski wrote: All, Just to set the record straight, Ken Harrington, the rat who started all this birthday stuff, celebrates his 69th on the 24 July. It would be fitting and proper to wish him all the best. I plan to present him with a bottle of something to start the celebration. Dave ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Passports
I use a passcard to travel. You can see the RFD chip embedded in it. It came with a lead or aluminum lined sleeve. I was advised always to use this in my wallet. You can't opt-out of that, but, for credit cards, at least for now, you can with some. I returned a credit card and opted out of the RFD chip. It's always crazy or funny until it happens to you or someone you know. I knew someone who was embroiled in an identity theft scandal. She couldn't even apply for financial aid for school because someone got a hold of her social security number. Another friend is wanted in Florida for a moving violation she didn't commit. Difference here is that it is obvious that they are of different races. It's a pain in the ass to try to straighten something like this out. Best thing is to be cautious. A small piece of aluminum foil isn't that big a deal. Been doing it with my passcard for years when I go to Canada. Just be glad someone hasn't said that it's mandatory to embed a chip in you. We already do it with animals. Children? And no, this is not that far fetched. The technology is already here for that. Cell phones are tracked automatically so you don't have to give the location when you dial 911. This has been a mandatory feature on cell phones for a number of years. Cars will soon have a mandatory black box in them. Either you roll with it, or move to an Inuit village….. Carl……. On Feb 9, 2013, at 8:44 PM, dirt...@comcast.net wrote: Actually, a lot. That's when the crazys started wrapping them in foil and started buying RFD-safe steel-mesh passport holders. Now you see them walking around with these stainless-steel mesh beanies. Attract good women that way, too. Whoo-HEE. Should I cancel? Doctor of Dirt From: Gill Ediger gi...@att.net To: s...@caver.net Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2013 8:19:23 PM Subject: Re: [SWR] RFID Credit Cards My passport does. Who knows what kind of information is on that? --Ediger ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Passports
It's already happened. You can't buy a 32 oz biggie coke or whatever in NYC, per his majesty Mayor Bloomberg. Fingerprint scans are already used on the medication dispensers at work. Retinal scans are coming. You can already change the lighting, etc. in your house by computer from the moon if you want to. When was the last time you used cash to buy gasoline? We thought it was way out there 40 years ago, and now……I drove across half the US in '78 without a cell phone. All we had was a CB radio. When was the last time any of us even went out the door without the cell phone recently? The computer used to power the Gemini spacecraft was as powerful as the Mattel Speak and Spell. We essentially went to the moon on a slide rule. My neighbor just had surgery performed-by a robotic arm. The MD wasn't even in the room for part of it. A motorcycle had a carburetor, distributor and engine. Mine has fuel injection, variable electronic timing, and a really big ass computer to make it all work. As for fingerprinting,……a Vet just had a double arm transplant, with someone else's fingers and therefore fingerprints….Could make life very interesting. It seems to be a brave new world out there. With all this technology, you'd think we could solve WNS. (Couldn't resist the shot). We lose sight of just how fast things have changed. Some for the better, some just because. Funny how when you want your computer fixed, you ask your neighbor's kid for help. As we get older the past looks better and better in some ways. I'm opting more and more for the Inuit Village….. Carl……. On Feb 10, 2013, at 3:43 PM, Jim Evatt wrote: And soon, too, a retinal scan confirmation to vote, buy alcohol or tobacco, get into your own house, car or garage, or fire your own rifle, shotgun or pistol. And maybe even to buy food or gasoline. E ^v^ att From: Carl Pagano Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 7:15 AM To: dirt...@comcast.net Cc: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Passports I use a passcard to travel. You can see the RFD chip embedded in it. It came with a lead or aluminum lined sleeve. I was advised always to use this in my wallet. You can't opt-out of that, but, for credit cards, at least for now, you can with some. I returned a credit card and opted out of the RFD chip. It's always crazy or funny until it happens to you or someone you know. I knew someone who was embroiled in an identity theft scandal. She couldn't even apply for financial aid for school because someone got a hold of her social security number. Another friend is wanted in Florida for a moving violation she didn't commit. Difference here is that it is obvious that they are of different races. It's a pain in the ass to try to straighten something like this out. Best thing is to be cautious. A small piece of aluminum foil isn't that big a deal. Been doing it with my passcard for years when I go to Canada. Just be glad someone hasn't said that it's mandatory to embed a chip in you. We already do it with animals. Children? And no, this is not that far fetched. The technology is already here for that. Cell phones are tracked automatically so you don't have to give the location when you dial 911. This has been a mandatory feature on cell phones for a number of years. Cars will soon have a mandatory black box in them. Either you roll with it, or move to an Inuit village….. Carl……. On Feb 9, 2013, at 8:44 PM, dirt...@comcast.net wrote: Actually, a lot. That's when the crazys started wrapping them in foil and started buying RFD-safe steel-mesh passport holders. Now you see them walking around with these stainless-steel mesh beanies. Attract good women that way, too. Whoo-HEE. Should I cancel? Doctor of Dirt From: Gill Ediger gi...@att.net To: s...@caver.net Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2013 8:19:23 PM Subject: Re: [SWR] RFID Credit Cards My passport does. Who knows what kind of information is on that? --Ediger ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Passports
Lee. I couldn't resist looking this up….Just trivia..But, sometime ago, we did see the Northern Lights in New Mexico, the solar storm was that powerful…. Solar storm of 1859 From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Sunspots of September 1, 1859, as sketched by Richard Carrington A and B mark the initial positions of an intensely bright event, which moved over the course of 5 minutes to C and D before disappearing. The solar storm of 1859, also known as the 1859 Solar Superstorm,[1] or the Carrington Event,[2] was a powerful geomagnetic solar storm in 1859 during solar cycle 10. A solar flare and/or coronal mass ejection produced a solar storm which hit earth's magnetosphereand induced the largest known geomagnetic solar storm, which was observed and recorded by Richard C. Carrington. Contents [hide] 1 Carrington Super Flare 2 Similar events 3 See also 4 References 5 Further reading 6 External links [edit]Carrington Super Flare From August 28, 1859, until September 2, numerous sunspots and solar flares were observed on the sun. Just before noon on September 1, the British astronomer Richard Carrington observed the largest flare,[3] which caused a major coronal mass ejection (CME) to travel directly toward Earth, taking 17.6 hours. Such a journey normally takes three to four days. This second CME moved so quickly because the first one had cleared the way of the ambient solar wind plasma.[3] On September 1, 1859, Carrington and Richard Hodgson, another English amateur astronomer, independently made the first observations of a solar flare. Because of a simultaneous crochet observed in the Kew Observatory magnetometer record by Balfour Stewart and a geomagnetic storm observed the following day, Carrington suspected a solar-terrestrial connection. Worldwide reports on the effects of the geomagnetic storm of 1859 were compiled and published by Elias Loomis which support the observations of Carrington and Balfour Stewart. On September 1–2, 1859, the largest recorded geomagnetic storm occurred. Aurorae were seen around the world, even over the Caribbean; those over the Rocky Mountains were so bright that their glow awoke gold miners, who began preparing breakfast because they thought it was morning.[3] People who happened to be awake in the northeastern US could read a newspaper by the aurora's light.[4] Telegraph systems all over Europe and North America failed, in some cases shocking telegraph operators.[5] Telegraph pylons threw sparks and telegraph paper spontaneously caught fire.[6] Some telegraph systems continued to send and receive messages despite having been disconnected from their power supplies.[7] On September 3, 1859, the Baltimore American and Commercial Advertiser reported, Those who happened to be out late on Thursday night had an opportunity of witnessing another magnificent display of the auroral lights. The phenomenon was very similar to the display on Sunday night, though at times the light was, if possible, more brilliant, and the prismatic hues more varied and gorgeous. The light appeared to cover the whole firmament, apparently like a luminous cloud, through which the stars of the larger magnitude indistinctly shone. The light was greater than that of the moon at its full, but had an indescribable softness and delicacy that seemed to envelop everything upon which it rested. Between 12 and 1 o'clock, when the display was at its full brilliancy, the quiet streets of the city resting under this strange light, presented a beautiful as well as singular appearance.[8] On Feb 10, 2013, at 5:41 PM, Lee H. Skinner wrote: And if we have a massive solar injection that wipes out our satellites, power grids, etc., where are we? Civilization (and the younger generation especially) has become so dependent on computers, cell phones, and other modern technology, that it would cause all kinds of electronic and food delivery networks to be suspended for an unknown length of time. No nation on earth is really prepared for this. We had one in 1850 that would have done that today. Lee It's already happened. You can't buy a 32 oz biggie coke or whatever in NYC, per his majesty Mayor Bloomberg. Fingerprint scans are already used on the medication dispensers at work. Retinal scans are coming. You can already change the lighting, etc. in your house by computer from the moon if you want to. When was the last time you used cash to buy gasoline? We thought it was way out there 40 years ago, and now……I drove across half the US in '78 without a cell phone. All we had was a CB radio. When was the last time any of us even went out the door without the cell phone recently? The computer used to power the Gemini spacecraft was as powerful as the Mattel Speak and Spell. We essentially went to the moon on a slide rule. My neighbor just had surgery performed-by a robotic arm. The MD wasn't even in the room for part of it. A motorcycle had a
Re: [SWR] Passports
I use a passcard to travel. You can see the RFD chip embedded in it. It came with a lead or aluminum lined sleeve. I was advised always to use this in my wallet. You can't opt-out of that, but, for credit cards, at least for now, you can with some. I returned a credit card and opted out of the RFD chip. It's always crazy or funny until it happens to you or someone you know. I knew someone who was embroiled in an identity theft scandal. She couldn't even apply for financial aid for school because someone got a hold of her social security number. Another friend is wanted in Florida for a moving violation she didn't commit. Difference here is that it is obvious that they are of different races. It's a pain in the ass to try to straighten something like this out. Best thing is to be cautious. A small piece of aluminum foil isn't that big a deal. Been doing it with my passcard for years when I go to Canada. Just be glad someone hasn't said that it's mandatory to embed a chip in you. We already do it with animals. Children? And no, this is not that far fetched. The technology is already here for that. Cell phones are tracked automatically so you don't have to give the location when you dial 911. This has been a mandatory feature on cell phones for a number of years. Cars will soon have a mandatory black box in them. Either you roll with it, or move to an Inuit village….. Carl……. On Feb 9, 2013, at 8:44 PM, dirt...@comcast.net wrote: Actually, a lot. That's when the crazys started wrapping them in foil and started buying RFD-safe steel-mesh passport holders. Now you see them walking around with these stainless-steel mesh beanies. Attract good women that way, too. Whoo-HEE. Should I cancel? Doctor of Dirt From: Gill Ediger gi...@att.net To: s...@caver.net Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2013 8:19:23 PM Subject: Re: [SWR] RFID Credit Cards My passport does. Who knows what kind of information is on that? --Ediger ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Passports
It's already happened. You can't buy a 32 oz biggie coke or whatever in NYC, per his majesty Mayor Bloomberg. Fingerprint scans are already used on the medication dispensers at work. Retinal scans are coming. You can already change the lighting, etc. in your house by computer from the moon if you want to. When was the last time you used cash to buy gasoline? We thought it was way out there 40 years ago, and now……I drove across half the US in '78 without a cell phone. All we had was a CB radio. When was the last time any of us even went out the door without the cell phone recently? The computer used to power the Gemini spacecraft was as powerful as the Mattel Speak and Spell. We essentially went to the moon on a slide rule. My neighbor just had surgery performed-by a robotic arm. The MD wasn't even in the room for part of it. A motorcycle had a carburetor, distributor and engine. Mine has fuel injection, variable electronic timing, and a really big ass computer to make it all work. As for fingerprinting,……a Vet just had a double arm transplant, with someone else's fingers and therefore fingerprints….Could make life very interesting. It seems to be a brave new world out there. With all this technology, you'd think we could solve WNS. (Couldn't resist the shot). We lose sight of just how fast things have changed. Some for the better, some just because. Funny how when you want your computer fixed, you ask your neighbor's kid for help. As we get older the past looks better and better in some ways. I'm opting more and more for the Inuit Village….. Carl……. On Feb 10, 2013, at 3:43 PM, Jim Evatt wrote: And soon, too, a retinal scan confirmation to vote, buy alcohol or tobacco, get into your own house, car or garage, or fire your own rifle, shotgun or pistol. And maybe even to buy food or gasoline. E ^v^ att From: Carl Pagano Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 7:15 AM To: dirt...@comcast.net Cc: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Passports I use a passcard to travel. You can see the RFD chip embedded in it. It came with a lead or aluminum lined sleeve. I was advised always to use this in my wallet. You can't opt-out of that, but, for credit cards, at least for now, you can with some. I returned a credit card and opted out of the RFD chip. It's always crazy or funny until it happens to you or someone you know. I knew someone who was embroiled in an identity theft scandal. She couldn't even apply for financial aid for school because someone got a hold of her social security number. Another friend is wanted in Florida for a moving violation she didn't commit. Difference here is that it is obvious that they are of different races. It's a pain in the ass to try to straighten something like this out. Best thing is to be cautious. A small piece of aluminum foil isn't that big a deal. Been doing it with my passcard for years when I go to Canada. Just be glad someone hasn't said that it's mandatory to embed a chip in you. We already do it with animals. Children? And no, this is not that far fetched. The technology is already here for that. Cell phones are tracked automatically so you don't have to give the location when you dial 911. This has been a mandatory feature on cell phones for a number of years. Cars will soon have a mandatory black box in them. Either you roll with it, or move to an Inuit village….. Carl……. On Feb 9, 2013, at 8:44 PM, dirt...@comcast.net wrote: Actually, a lot. That's when the crazys started wrapping them in foil and started buying RFD-safe steel-mesh passport holders. Now you see them walking around with these stainless-steel mesh beanies. Attract good women that way, too. Whoo-HEE. Should I cancel? Doctor of Dirt From: Gill Ediger gi...@att.net To: s...@caver.net Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2013 8:19:23 PM Subject: Re: [SWR] RFID Credit Cards My passport does. Who knows what kind of information is on that? --Ediger ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Passports
Lee. I couldn't resist looking this up….Just trivia..But, sometime ago, we did see the Northern Lights in New Mexico, the solar storm was that powerful…. Solar storm of 1859 From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Sunspots of September 1, 1859, as sketched by Richard Carrington A and B mark the initial positions of an intensely bright event, which moved over the course of 5 minutes to C and D before disappearing. The solar storm of 1859, also known as the 1859 Solar Superstorm,[1] or the Carrington Event,[2] was a powerful geomagnetic solar storm in 1859 during solar cycle 10. A solar flare and/or coronal mass ejection produced a solar storm which hit earth's magnetosphereand induced the largest known geomagnetic solar storm, which was observed and recorded by Richard C. Carrington. Contents [hide] 1 Carrington Super Flare 2 Similar events 3 See also 4 References 5 Further reading 6 External links [edit]Carrington Super Flare From August 28, 1859, until September 2, numerous sunspots and solar flares were observed on the sun. Just before noon on September 1, the British astronomer Richard Carrington observed the largest flare,[3] which caused a major coronal mass ejection (CME) to travel directly toward Earth, taking 17.6 hours. Such a journey normally takes three to four days. This second CME moved so quickly because the first one had cleared the way of the ambient solar wind plasma.[3] On September 1, 1859, Carrington and Richard Hodgson, another English amateur astronomer, independently made the first observations of a solar flare. Because of a simultaneous crochet observed in the Kew Observatory magnetometer record by Balfour Stewart and a geomagnetic storm observed the following day, Carrington suspected a solar-terrestrial connection. Worldwide reports on the effects of the geomagnetic storm of 1859 were compiled and published by Elias Loomis which support the observations of Carrington and Balfour Stewart. On September 1–2, 1859, the largest recorded geomagnetic storm occurred. Aurorae were seen around the world, even over the Caribbean; those over the Rocky Mountains were so bright that their glow awoke gold miners, who began preparing breakfast because they thought it was morning.[3] People who happened to be awake in the northeastern US could read a newspaper by the aurora's light.[4] Telegraph systems all over Europe and North America failed, in some cases shocking telegraph operators.[5] Telegraph pylons threw sparks and telegraph paper spontaneously caught fire.[6] Some telegraph systems continued to send and receive messages despite having been disconnected from their power supplies.[7] On September 3, 1859, the Baltimore American and Commercial Advertiser reported, Those who happened to be out late on Thursday night had an opportunity of witnessing another magnificent display of the auroral lights. The phenomenon was very similar to the display on Sunday night, though at times the light was, if possible, more brilliant, and the prismatic hues more varied and gorgeous. The light appeared to cover the whole firmament, apparently like a luminous cloud, through which the stars of the larger magnitude indistinctly shone. The light was greater than that of the moon at its full, but had an indescribable softness and delicacy that seemed to envelop everything upon which it rested. Between 12 and 1 o'clock, when the display was at its full brilliancy, the quiet streets of the city resting under this strange light, presented a beautiful as well as singular appearance.[8] On Feb 10, 2013, at 5:41 PM, Lee H. Skinner wrote: And if we have a massive solar injection that wipes out our satellites, power grids, etc., where are we? Civilization (and the younger generation especially) has become so dependent on computers, cell phones, and other modern technology, that it would cause all kinds of electronic and food delivery networks to be suspended for an unknown length of time. No nation on earth is really prepared for this. We had one in 1850 that would have done that today. Lee It's already happened. You can't buy a 32 oz biggie coke or whatever in NYC, per his majesty Mayor Bloomberg. Fingerprint scans are already used on the medication dispensers at work. Retinal scans are coming. You can already change the lighting, etc. in your house by computer from the moon if you want to. When was the last time you used cash to buy gasoline? We thought it was way out there 40 years ago, and now……I drove across half the US in '78 without a cell phone. All we had was a CB radio. When was the last time any of us even went out the door without the cell phone recently? The computer used to power the Gemini spacecraft was as powerful as the Mattel Speak and Spell. We essentially went to the moon on a slide rule. My neighbor just had surgery performed-by a robotic arm. The MD wasn't even in the room for part of it. A motorcycle had a
Re: [SWR] Passports
I use a passcard to travel. You can see the RFD chip embedded in it. It came with a lead or aluminum lined sleeve. I was advised always to use this in my wallet. You can't opt-out of that, but, for credit cards, at least for now, you can with some. I returned a credit card and opted out of the RFD chip. It's always crazy or funny until it happens to you or someone you know. I knew someone who was embroiled in an identity theft scandal. She couldn't even apply for financial aid for school because someone got a hold of her social security number. Another friend is wanted in Florida for a moving violation she didn't commit. Difference here is that it is obvious that they are of different races. It's a pain in the ass to try to straighten something like this out. Best thing is to be cautious. A small piece of aluminum foil isn't that big a deal. Been doing it with my passcard for years when I go to Canada. Just be glad someone hasn't said that it's mandatory to embed a chip in you. We already do it with animals. Children? And no, this is not that far fetched. The technology is already here for that. Cell phones are tracked automatically so you don't have to give the location when you dial 911. This has been a mandatory feature on cell phones for a number of years. Cars will soon have a mandatory black box in them. Either you roll with it, or move to an Inuit village….. Carl……. On Feb 9, 2013, at 8:44 PM, dirt...@comcast.net wrote: Actually, a lot. That's when the crazys started wrapping them in foil and started buying RFD-safe steel-mesh passport holders. Now you see them walking around with these stainless-steel mesh beanies. Attract good women that way, too. Whoo-HEE. Should I cancel? Doctor of Dirt From: Gill Ediger gi...@att.net To: s...@caver.net Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2013 8:19:23 PM Subject: Re: [SWR] RFID Credit Cards My passport does. Who knows what kind of information is on that? --Ediger ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Passports
It's already happened. You can't buy a 32 oz biggie coke or whatever in NYC, per his majesty Mayor Bloomberg. Fingerprint scans are already used on the medication dispensers at work. Retinal scans are coming. You can already change the lighting, etc. in your house by computer from the moon if you want to. When was the last time you used cash to buy gasoline? We thought it was way out there 40 years ago, and now……I drove across half the US in '78 without a cell phone. All we had was a CB radio. When was the last time any of us even went out the door without the cell phone recently? The computer used to power the Gemini spacecraft was as powerful as the Mattel Speak and Spell. We essentially went to the moon on a slide rule. My neighbor just had surgery performed-by a robotic arm. The MD wasn't even in the room for part of it. A motorcycle had a carburetor, distributor and engine. Mine has fuel injection, variable electronic timing, and a really big ass computer to make it all work. As for fingerprinting,……a Vet just had a double arm transplant, with someone else's fingers and therefore fingerprints….Could make life very interesting. It seems to be a brave new world out there. With all this technology, you'd think we could solve WNS. (Couldn't resist the shot). We lose sight of just how fast things have changed. Some for the better, some just because. Funny how when you want your computer fixed, you ask your neighbor's kid for help. As we get older the past looks better and better in some ways. I'm opting more and more for the Inuit Village….. Carl……. On Feb 10, 2013, at 3:43 PM, Jim Evatt wrote: And soon, too, a retinal scan confirmation to vote, buy alcohol or tobacco, get into your own house, car or garage, or fire your own rifle, shotgun or pistol. And maybe even to buy food or gasoline. E ^v^ att From: Carl Pagano Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 7:15 AM To: dirt...@comcast.net Cc: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Passports I use a passcard to travel. You can see the RFD chip embedded in it. It came with a lead or aluminum lined sleeve. I was advised always to use this in my wallet. You can't opt-out of that, but, for credit cards, at least for now, you can with some. I returned a credit card and opted out of the RFD chip. It's always crazy or funny until it happens to you or someone you know. I knew someone who was embroiled in an identity theft scandal. She couldn't even apply for financial aid for school because someone got a hold of her social security number. Another friend is wanted in Florida for a moving violation she didn't commit. Difference here is that it is obvious that they are of different races. It's a pain in the ass to try to straighten something like this out. Best thing is to be cautious. A small piece of aluminum foil isn't that big a deal. Been doing it with my passcard for years when I go to Canada. Just be glad someone hasn't said that it's mandatory to embed a chip in you. We already do it with animals. Children? And no, this is not that far fetched. The technology is already here for that. Cell phones are tracked automatically so you don't have to give the location when you dial 911. This has been a mandatory feature on cell phones for a number of years. Cars will soon have a mandatory black box in them. Either you roll with it, or move to an Inuit village….. Carl……. On Feb 9, 2013, at 8:44 PM, dirt...@comcast.net wrote: Actually, a lot. That's when the crazys started wrapping them in foil and started buying RFD-safe steel-mesh passport holders. Now you see them walking around with these stainless-steel mesh beanies. Attract good women that way, too. Whoo-HEE. Should I cancel? Doctor of Dirt From: Gill Ediger gi...@att.net To: s...@caver.net Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2013 8:19:23 PM Subject: Re: [SWR] RFID Credit Cards My passport does. Who knows what kind of information is on that? --Ediger ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Passports
Lee. I couldn't resist looking this up….Just trivia..But, sometime ago, we did see the Northern Lights in New Mexico, the solar storm was that powerful…. Solar storm of 1859 From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Sunspots of September 1, 1859, as sketched by Richard Carrington A and B mark the initial positions of an intensely bright event, which moved over the course of 5 minutes to C and D before disappearing. The solar storm of 1859, also known as the 1859 Solar Superstorm,[1] or the Carrington Event,[2] was a powerful geomagnetic solar storm in 1859 during solar cycle 10. A solar flare and/or coronal mass ejection produced a solar storm which hit earth's magnetosphereand induced the largest known geomagnetic solar storm, which was observed and recorded by Richard C. Carrington. Contents [hide] 1 Carrington Super Flare 2 Similar events 3 See also 4 References 5 Further reading 6 External links [edit]Carrington Super Flare From August 28, 1859, until September 2, numerous sunspots and solar flares were observed on the sun. Just before noon on September 1, the British astronomer Richard Carrington observed the largest flare,[3] which caused a major coronal mass ejection (CME) to travel directly toward Earth, taking 17.6 hours. Such a journey normally takes three to four days. This second CME moved so quickly because the first one had cleared the way of the ambient solar wind plasma.[3] On September 1, 1859, Carrington and Richard Hodgson, another English amateur astronomer, independently made the first observations of a solar flare. Because of a simultaneous crochet observed in the Kew Observatory magnetometer record by Balfour Stewart and a geomagnetic storm observed the following day, Carrington suspected a solar-terrestrial connection. Worldwide reports on the effects of the geomagnetic storm of 1859 were compiled and published by Elias Loomis which support the observations of Carrington and Balfour Stewart. On September 1–2, 1859, the largest recorded geomagnetic storm occurred. Aurorae were seen around the world, even over the Caribbean; those over the Rocky Mountains were so bright that their glow awoke gold miners, who began preparing breakfast because they thought it was morning.[3] People who happened to be awake in the northeastern US could read a newspaper by the aurora's light.[4] Telegraph systems all over Europe and North America failed, in some cases shocking telegraph operators.[5] Telegraph pylons threw sparks and telegraph paper spontaneously caught fire.[6] Some telegraph systems continued to send and receive messages despite having been disconnected from their power supplies.[7] On September 3, 1859, the Baltimore American and Commercial Advertiser reported, Those who happened to be out late on Thursday night had an opportunity of witnessing another magnificent display of the auroral lights. The phenomenon was very similar to the display on Sunday night, though at times the light was, if possible, more brilliant, and the prismatic hues more varied and gorgeous. The light appeared to cover the whole firmament, apparently like a luminous cloud, through which the stars of the larger magnitude indistinctly shone. The light was greater than that of the moon at its full, but had an indescribable softness and delicacy that seemed to envelop everything upon which it rested. Between 12 and 1 o'clock, when the display was at its full brilliancy, the quiet streets of the city resting under this strange light, presented a beautiful as well as singular appearance.[8] On Feb 10, 2013, at 5:41 PM, Lee H. Skinner wrote: And if we have a massive solar injection that wipes out our satellites, power grids, etc., where are we? Civilization (and the younger generation especially) has become so dependent on computers, cell phones, and other modern technology, that it would cause all kinds of electronic and food delivery networks to be suspended for an unknown length of time. No nation on earth is really prepared for this. We had one in 1850 that would have done that today. Lee It's already happened. You can't buy a 32 oz biggie coke or whatever in NYC, per his majesty Mayor Bloomberg. Fingerprint scans are already used on the medication dispensers at work. Retinal scans are coming. You can already change the lighting, etc. in your house by computer from the moon if you want to. When was the last time you used cash to buy gasoline? We thought it was way out there 40 years ago, and now……I drove across half the US in '78 without a cell phone. All we had was a CB radio. When was the last time any of us even went out the door without the cell phone recently? The computer used to power the Gemini spacecraft was as powerful as the Mattel Speak and Spell. We essentially went to the moon on a slide rule. My neighbor just had surgery performed-by a robotic arm. The MD wasn't even in the room for part of it. A motorcycle had a
Re: [SWR] Upcoming BLM cave closure document.
Hi Knutt, Good to hear from you. I understand how you're walking a tightrope regarding this. So what does this mean, that you have to tell them which caves don't have bats in them? Can you clarify this? As for nominating people, it's all in good fun, and there are a lot of good people who could be nominated for something, doesn't mean you have to accept! Take Care, Hope to see you at the Winter Tech. Carl…. On Sep 18, 2012, at 4:04 PM, knutt peterson wrote: All, As many of you are aware, BLM has had a closure on 23 caves on public lands for the last 20 months. This closure is going to be looked at AGAIN in the next few months, and who knows what the decision will be. If nothing is done on the caving communities part, it will look the same - Caves will be closed for the next two years, again. I have brought the following documents to the attention of Chuck Schmidt, RFO Field Manager and Doug Burger, Pecos District Manager. They like what this could represent. I believe that a closure modified to look like the one that USFS region 2 is using is a step in the right direction to keeping caving relatively open, OK so you still have to decon. What the USFS's modified closure does different is it creates an exception to the closure for NSS CRF members doing any work related to a MOU with the USFS. BLM has a MOU with NSS. This might be the ticket for us cavers to have an easier time getting into closed caves. I am personally getting tired of doing battle with the White Nose Committee for every trip that goes to a closed cave. Something has to change. This USFS agreement gives the decision of which permits get approved back to the local USFS office. Pay close attention to exception 6 PDF of new closure order http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5383210.pdf Web site for closure order http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/r2/home/?cid=stelprdb5386976 Working for BLM, I can't tell you what to do as the caving community, and I am already pulling many strings on this end. So, if the writing isn't already on the wall..then you should let Carl Pagano nominate you for something, (I hear he's good at that). Lastly, work with your local BLM office. The BLM Pecos District is the hub of NM caving. They want cavers caving! Please spread this information to anyone not on this email list. Knutt Peterson ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Upcoming BLM cave closure document.
Hi Knutt, Good to hear from you. I understand how you're walking a tightrope regarding this. So what does this mean, that you have to tell them which caves don't have bats in them? Can you clarify this? As for nominating people, it's all in good fun, and there are a lot of good people who could be nominated for something, doesn't mean you have to accept! Take Care, Hope to see you at the Winter Tech. Carl…. On Sep 18, 2012, at 4:04 PM, knutt peterson wrote: All, As many of you are aware, BLM has had a closure on 23 caves on public lands for the last 20 months. This closure is going to be looked at AGAIN in the next few months, and who knows what the decision will be. If nothing is done on the caving communities part, it will look the same - Caves will be closed for the next two years, again. I have brought the following documents to the attention of Chuck Schmidt, RFO Field Manager and Doug Burger, Pecos District Manager. They like what this could represent. I believe that a closure modified to look like the one that USFS region 2 is using is a step in the right direction to keeping caving relatively open, OK so you still have to decon. What the USFS's modified closure does different is it creates an exception to the closure for NSS CRF members doing any work related to a MOU with the USFS. BLM has a MOU with NSS. This might be the ticket for us cavers to have an easier time getting into closed caves. I am personally getting tired of doing battle with the White Nose Committee for every trip that goes to a closed cave. Something has to change. This USFS agreement gives the decision of which permits get approved back to the local USFS office. Pay close attention to exception 6 PDF of new closure order http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5383210.pdf Web site for closure order http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/r2/home/?cid=stelprdb5386976 Working for BLM, I can't tell you what to do as the caving community, and I am already pulling many strings on this end. So, if the writing isn't already on the wall..then you should let Carl Pagano nominate you for something, (I hear he's good at that). Lastly, work with your local BLM office. The BLM Pecos District is the hub of NM caving. They want cavers caving! Please spread this information to anyone not on this email list. Knutt Peterson ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Upcoming BLM cave closure document.
Hi Knutt, Good to hear from you. I understand how you're walking a tightrope regarding this. So what does this mean, that you have to tell them which caves don't have bats in them? Can you clarify this? As for nominating people, it's all in good fun, and there are a lot of good people who could be nominated for something, doesn't mean you have to accept! Take Care, Hope to see you at the Winter Tech. Carl…. On Sep 18, 2012, at 4:04 PM, knutt peterson wrote: All, As many of you are aware, BLM has had a closure on 23 caves on public lands for the last 20 months. This closure is going to be looked at AGAIN in the next few months, and who knows what the decision will be. If nothing is done on the caving communities part, it will look the same - Caves will be closed for the next two years, again. I have brought the following documents to the attention of Chuck Schmidt, RFO Field Manager and Doug Burger, Pecos District Manager. They like what this could represent. I believe that a closure modified to look like the one that USFS region 2 is using is a step in the right direction to keeping caving relatively open, OK so you still have to decon. What the USFS's modified closure does different is it creates an exception to the closure for NSS CRF members doing any work related to a MOU with the USFS. BLM has a MOU with NSS. This might be the ticket for us cavers to have an easier time getting into closed caves. I am personally getting tired of doing battle with the White Nose Committee for every trip that goes to a closed cave. Something has to change. This USFS agreement gives the decision of which permits get approved back to the local USFS office. Pay close attention to exception 6 PDF of new closure order http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5383210.pdf Web site for closure order http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/r2/home/?cid=stelprdb5386976 Working for BLM, I can't tell you what to do as the caving community, and I am already pulling many strings on this end. So, if the writing isn't already on the wall..then you should let Carl Pagano nominate you for something, (I hear he's good at that). Lastly, work with your local BLM office. The BLM Pecos District is the hub of NM caving. They want cavers caving! Please spread this information to anyone not on this email list. Knutt Peterson ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Pit in Magdalena
Personally, I think it's just a cover up for a greater conspiracy going on there…….. On the other hand, it could just be a sinkhole or mine tunnel, and worth looking into. Has anyone from the SWR contacted these folks yet? On Jul 21, 2012, at 9:20 AM, Steve Peerman wrote: News to me. Lots of mining activity around Magdalena. Could be an old mine tunnel that collapsed. On Jul 21, 2012, at 8:33 AM, Lee H. Skinner wrote: Does anyone know about this? http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S2698021.shtml?cat=648 Lee Skinner ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET Steve Peerman Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. attributed to Mark Twain, but no record exists of his having written this. ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Pit in Magdalena
Personally, I think it's just a cover up for a greater conspiracy going on there…….. On the other hand, it could just be a sinkhole or mine tunnel, and worth looking into. Has anyone from the SWR contacted these folks yet? On Jul 21, 2012, at 9:20 AM, Steve Peerman wrote: News to me. Lots of mining activity around Magdalena. Could be an old mine tunnel that collapsed. On Jul 21, 2012, at 8:33 AM, Lee H. Skinner wrote: Does anyone know about this? http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S2698021.shtml?cat=648 Lee Skinner ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET Steve Peerman Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. attributed to Mark Twain, but no record exists of his having written this. ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Pit in Magdalena
Personally, I think it's just a cover up for a greater conspiracy going on there…….. On the other hand, it could just be a sinkhole or mine tunnel, and worth looking into. Has anyone from the SWR contacted these folks yet? On Jul 21, 2012, at 9:20 AM, Steve Peerman wrote: News to me. Lots of mining activity around Magdalena. Could be an old mine tunnel that collapsed. On Jul 21, 2012, at 8:33 AM, Lee H. Skinner wrote: Does anyone know about this? http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S2698021.shtml?cat=648 Lee Skinner ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET Steve Peerman Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. attributed to Mark Twain, but no record exists of his having written this. ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[SWR] Fwd: Proclamation
Place a copy with the NSS. Have another copy transferred onto cloth, and sew it into the SWR banner, so it can be displayed at convention…….Carl…...Begin forwarded message:From: Stephen Fleming casto...@gmail.comSubject: [SWR] Fwd: ProclamationDate: June 1, 2012 10:15:21 AM MDTTo: NM Caver List s...@caver.net, AZ Region azreg...@yahoogroups.com, TX Caver list texascavers@texascavers.comThere's one bit of unfinished business regarding the SWR 50th Anniversary.But, first, some background. This mostly is for the edification of those living in other states that get this message, but an occasional reminder to locals doesn't hurt.Most folks living in New Mexico know that it is the "Land of Enchantment"; after all, it's on the license plates. However, residents also know it as the "Land of Mañana" as things often happen on a timetable unrelated to schedules, needs or desires. In some cases, "tomorrow" never actually arrives.Thus it is with the above in mind that the following is, as Rod Serling (Twilight Zone guy for those unfamiliar) would say, "offered for your consideration".On March 11, 2012, I made a request to the New Mexico Governor's office for a statewide proclamation recognizing the Southwestern Region's 50th Anniversary.Proclamations are at the discretion of the Governor and according to the website: "Requests will be accepted no more than 6 months in advance and will not be issued more than 3 months in advance of the event. Four week notice is required to provide proclamations."Proclamations are requested online and there is no follow-up. It either happens or it doesn't. You will note that the date of my request was well within all the parameters listed above.As the date of the event approached, I eagerly checked the mail, hoping for a document. On Friday, May 25, the day before the event, the mailbox was empty.BUST !Well, this morning I received an email from the Governor's office informing me the proclamation was being mailed today.Refer again to the top of this email for a refresher on "mañana". Thus, the document will finally arrive approximately diez mañanas after it was desirable to receive it.But, it has/will come.Since some lists don't allow attachments, check the SWR website after a bit to view it. I've left it attached to this message in the event it goes through to some.Now, when it does arrive, what do we do with it? We should publicize it (the Ruidoso papers would probably print it, and perhaps send the PDF to cooperating agencies/organizations), but the question is for ultimate disposition.Since the SWR lacks a museum (Belski's garage is the closest thing to such a facility and it does not have regular visiting hours, nor a gallery or docents), I suggest we submit it to the NSS museum for archival purposes. However, it's up to the SWR officers to decide. CaversDay.PDF Description: Adobe PDF document ___SWR mailing lists...@caver.nethttp://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[SWR] Fwd: Proclamation
Place a copy with the NSS. Have another copy transferred onto cloth, and sew it into the SWR banner, so it can be displayed at convention…….Carl…...Begin forwarded message:From: Stephen Fleming casto...@gmail.comSubject: [SWR] Fwd: ProclamationDate: June 1, 2012 10:15:21 AM MDTTo: NM Caver List s...@caver.net, AZ Region azreg...@yahoogroups.com, TX Caver list texascavers@texascavers.comThere's one bit of unfinished business regarding the SWR 50th Anniversary.But, first, some background. This mostly is for the edification of those living in other states that get this message, but an occasional reminder to locals doesn't hurt.Most folks living in New Mexico know that it is the "Land of Enchantment"; after all, it's on the license plates. However, residents also know it as the "Land of Mañana" as things often happen on a timetable unrelated to schedules, needs or desires. In some cases, "tomorrow" never actually arrives.Thus it is with the above in mind that the following is, as Rod Serling (Twilight Zone guy for those unfamiliar) would say, "offered for your consideration".On March 11, 2012, I made a request to the New Mexico Governor's office for a statewide proclamation recognizing the Southwestern Region's 50th Anniversary.Proclamations are at the discretion of the Governor and according to the website: "Requests will be accepted no more than 6 months in advance and will not be issued more than 3 months in advance of the event. Four week notice is required to provide proclamations."Proclamations are requested online and there is no follow-up. It either happens or it doesn't. You will note that the date of my request was well within all the parameters listed above.As the date of the event approached, I eagerly checked the mail, hoping for a document. On Friday, May 25, the day before the event, the mailbox was empty.BUST !Well, this morning I received an email from the Governor's office informing me the proclamation was being mailed today.Refer again to the top of this email for a refresher on "mañana". Thus, the document will finally arrive approximately diez mañanas after it was desirable to receive it.But, it has/will come.Since some lists don't allow attachments, check the SWR website after a bit to view it. I've left it attached to this message in the event it goes through to some.Now, when it does arrive, what do we do with it? We should publicize it (the Ruidoso papers would probably print it, and perhaps send the PDF to cooperating agencies/organizations), but the question is for ultimate disposition.Since the SWR lacks a museum (Belski's garage is the closest thing to such a facility and it does not have regular visiting hours, nor a gallery or docents), I suggest we submit it to the NSS museum for archival purposes. However, it's up to the SWR officers to decide. CaversDay.PDF Description: Adobe PDF document ___SWR mailing lists...@caver.nethttp://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[SWR] Fwd: Proclamation
Place a copy with the NSS. Have another copy transferred onto cloth, and sew it into the SWR banner, so it can be displayed at convention…….Carl…...Begin forwarded message:From: Stephen Fleming casto...@gmail.comSubject: [SWR] Fwd: ProclamationDate: June 1, 2012 10:15:21 AM MDTTo: NM Caver List s...@caver.net, AZ Region azreg...@yahoogroups.com, TX Caver list texascavers@texascavers.comThere's one bit of unfinished business regarding the SWR 50th Anniversary.But, first, some background. This mostly is for the edification of those living in other states that get this message, but an occasional reminder to locals doesn't hurt.Most folks living in New Mexico know that it is the "Land of Enchantment"; after all, it's on the license plates. However, residents also know it as the "Land of Mañana" as things often happen on a timetable unrelated to schedules, needs or desires. In some cases, "tomorrow" never actually arrives.Thus it is with the above in mind that the following is, as Rod Serling (Twilight Zone guy for those unfamiliar) would say, "offered for your consideration".On March 11, 2012, I made a request to the New Mexico Governor's office for a statewide proclamation recognizing the Southwestern Region's 50th Anniversary.Proclamations are at the discretion of the Governor and according to the website: "Requests will be accepted no more than 6 months in advance and will not be issued more than 3 months in advance of the event. Four week notice is required to provide proclamations."Proclamations are requested online and there is no follow-up. It either happens or it doesn't. You will note that the date of my request was well within all the parameters listed above.As the date of the event approached, I eagerly checked the mail, hoping for a document. On Friday, May 25, the day before the event, the mailbox was empty.BUST !Well, this morning I received an email from the Governor's office informing me the proclamation was being mailed today.Refer again to the top of this email for a refresher on "mañana". Thus, the document will finally arrive approximately diez mañanas after it was desirable to receive it.But, it has/will come.Since some lists don't allow attachments, check the SWR website after a bit to view it. I've left it attached to this message in the event it goes through to some.Now, when it does arrive, what do we do with it? We should publicize it (the Ruidoso papers would probably print it, and perhaps send the PDF to cooperating agencies/organizations), but the question is for ultimate disposition.Since the SWR lacks a museum (Belski's garage is the closest thing to such a facility and it does not have regular visiting hours, nor a gallery or docents), I suggest we submit it to the NSS museum for archival purposes. However, it's up to the SWR officers to decide. CaversDay.PDF Description: Adobe PDF document ___SWR mailing lists...@caver.nethttp://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[SWR] Caves in/near White Oaks,NM?
Hi. Does anyone know if there are any caves near White Oaks, NM. Googled it, and it is a semi-Ghost Town. Looks like a great place for a regional if there was something to explore…..FYI the turn off for the town is just past the intersection in Carrizozo going north…. Carl... ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[SWR] Caves in/near White Oaks,NM?
Hi. Does anyone know if there are any caves near White Oaks, NM. Googled it, and it is a semi-Ghost Town. Looks like a great place for a regional if there was something to explore…..FYI the turn off for the town is just past the intersection in Carrizozo going north…. Carl... ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[SWR] Caves in/near White Oaks,NM?
Hi. Does anyone know if there are any caves near White Oaks, NM. Googled it, and it is a semi-Ghost Town. Looks like a great place for a regional if there was something to explore…..FYI the turn off for the town is just past the intersection in Carrizozo going north…. Carl... ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
It is what I have been saying. There is NO scientific evidence that this is human spread. That involves work, including a control, and test group. After a conclusion has been reached, the experiment must be able to be repeated, several times, with the same results to support the original hypothesis. That humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it. It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, and then say that you've done all that you can, when even your hair probably carries the spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable gear, so that each time you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, spore free gear, the effort is futile. How many can say that they have immersed their expensive caving helmet and lamp in decontaminant each and every time before they go into a cave? Washed your cave suit lately? You bet you have! Made you feel good that you were doing your part to contain WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just put it back into the same dirty tote you got it out of. May look clean but guess again. You must put your stuff in a bag that has not touched any other surface suspected of carrying spores. That includes the back of your pick up truck you threw your expensive dusty caving helmet and gear into.. How many have decontaminated their vehicles? Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, it all carries the same dirt from the last cave you were in. How about the dirt under your fingernails? Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? Really scrubbed under those fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up caving gear, decontaminate it, then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty again because you just touched decontaminated gear with fingernails that still contain dirt under them, i.e. spores, if you ever had any in the first place. Now, does this sound completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. Therefore, the entire idea of decontaminating your gear is equally just a feel good measure. Pick up any medical book on sterile technique, then come back and still support the idea of field decontamination. It doesn't work. Same as a petition. Some individuals need a cause. Seems like the person mentioned below has found theirs, with complete disregard to fact or practicality. By the way, suppose you close all the caves? What are you going to do- stop the bats from going into them? Tell them to wipe their feet? How about a warm devon bath before flying out? Or that they are restricted to just one cave? The entire thought is as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, decontamination, or any other hypothesis that is not supported by scientific, reproducible results. Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you like. All of this is simply emotion based bad science. Carl……. On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John
Re: [SWR] Petition to keep public caves open to the public
On Apr 13, 2012, at 2:58 PM, Carl Pagano wrote: It is what I have been saying. There is NO scientific evidence that this is human spread. That involves work, including a control, and test group. After a conclusion has been reached, the experiment must be able to be repeated, several times, with the same results to support the original hypothesis. That humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it. It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, and then say that you've done all that you can, when even your hair probably carries the spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable gear, so that each time you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, spore free gear, the effort is futile. How many can say that they have immersed their expensive caving helmet and lamp in decontaminant each and every time before they go into a cave? Washed your cave suit lately? You bet you have! Made you feel good that you were doing your part to contain WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just put it back into the same dirty tote you got it out of. May look clean but guess again. You must put your stuff in a bag that has not touched any other surface suspected of carrying spores. That includes the back of your pick up truck you threw your expensive dusty caving helmet and gear into.. How many have decontaminated their vehicles? Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, it all carries the same dirt from the last cave you were in. How about the dirt under your fingernails? Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? Really scrubbed under those fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up caving gear, decontaminate it, then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty again because you just touched decontaminated gear with fingernails that still contain dirt under them, i.e. spores, if you ever had any in the first place. Now, does this sound completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. Therefore, the entire idea of decontaminating your gear is equally just a feel good measure. Pick up any medical book on sterile technique, then come back and still support the idea of field decontamination. It doesn't work. Same as a petition. Some individuals need a cause. Seems like the person mentioned below has found theirs, with complete disregard to fact or practicality. By the way, suppose you close all the caves? What are you going to do- stop the bats from going into them? Tell them to wipe their feet? How about a warm devon bath before flying out? Or that they are restricted to just one cave? The entire thought is as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, decontamination, or any other hypothesis that is not supported by scientific, reproducible results. Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you like. All of this is simply emotion based bad science. Carl……. On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
It is what I have been saying. There is NO scientific evidence that this is human spread. That involves work, including a control, and test group. After a conclusion has been reached, the experiment must be able to be repeated, several times, with the same results to support the original hypothesis. That humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it. It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, and then say that you've done all that you can, when even your hair probably carries the spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable gear, so that each time you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, spore free gear, the effort is futile. How many can say that they have immersed their expensive caving helmet and lamp in decontaminant each and every time before they go into a cave? Washed your cave suit lately? You bet you have! Made you feel good that you were doing your part to contain WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just put it back into the same dirty tote you got it out of. May look clean but guess again. You must put your stuff in a bag that has not touched any other surface suspected of carrying spores. That includes the back of your pick up truck you threw your expensive dusty caving helmet and gear into.. How many have decontaminated their vehicles? Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, it all carries the same dirt from the last cave you were in. How about the dirt under your fingernails? Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? Really scrubbed under those fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up caving gear, decontaminate it, then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty again because you just touched decontaminated gear with fingernails that still contain dirt under them, i.e. spores, if you ever had any in the first place. Now, does this sound completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. Therefore, the entire idea of decontaminating your gear is equally just a feel good measure. Pick up any medical book on sterile technique, then come back and still support the idea of field decontamination. It doesn't work. Same as a petition. Some individuals need a cause. Seems like the person mentioned below has found theirs, with complete disregard to fact or practicality. By the way, suppose you close all the caves? What are you going to do- stop the bats from going into them? Tell them to wipe their feet? How about a warm devon bath before flying out? Or that they are restricted to just one cave? The entire thought is as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, decontamination, or any other hypothesis that is not supported by scientific, reproducible results. Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you like. All of this is simply emotion based bad science. Carl……. On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John
Re: [SWR] Petition to keep public caves open to the public
On Apr 13, 2012, at 2:58 PM, Carl Pagano wrote: It is what I have been saying. There is NO scientific evidence that this is human spread. That involves work, including a control, and test group. After a conclusion has been reached, the experiment must be able to be repeated, several times, with the same results to support the original hypothesis. That humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it. It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, and then say that you've done all that you can, when even your hair probably carries the spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable gear, so that each time you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, spore free gear, the effort is futile. How many can say that they have immersed their expensive caving helmet and lamp in decontaminant each and every time before they go into a cave? Washed your cave suit lately? You bet you have! Made you feel good that you were doing your part to contain WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just put it back into the same dirty tote you got it out of. May look clean but guess again. You must put your stuff in a bag that has not touched any other surface suspected of carrying spores. That includes the back of your pick up truck you threw your expensive dusty caving helmet and gear into.. How many have decontaminated their vehicles? Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, it all carries the same dirt from the last cave you were in. How about the dirt under your fingernails? Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? Really scrubbed under those fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up caving gear, decontaminate it, then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty again because you just touched decontaminated gear with fingernails that still contain dirt under them, i.e. spores, if you ever had any in the first place. Now, does this sound completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. Therefore, the entire idea of decontaminating your gear is equally just a feel good measure. Pick up any medical book on sterile technique, then come back and still support the idea of field decontamination. It doesn't work. Same as a petition. Some individuals need a cause. Seems like the person mentioned below has found theirs, with complete disregard to fact or practicality. By the way, suppose you close all the caves? What are you going to do- stop the bats from going into them? Tell them to wipe their feet? How about a warm devon bath before flying out? Or that they are restricted to just one cave? The entire thought is as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, decontamination, or any other hypothesis that is not supported by scientific, reproducible results. Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you like. All of this is simply emotion based bad science. Carl……. On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
It is what I have been saying. There is NO scientific evidence that this is human spread. That involves work, including a control, and test group. After a conclusion has been reached, the experiment must be able to be repeated, several times, with the same results to support the original hypothesis. That humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it. It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, and then say that you've done all that you can, when even your hair probably carries the spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable gear, so that each time you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, spore free gear, the effort is futile. How many can say that they have immersed their expensive caving helmet and lamp in decontaminant each and every time before they go into a cave? Washed your cave suit lately? You bet you have! Made you feel good that you were doing your part to contain WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just put it back into the same dirty tote you got it out of. May look clean but guess again. You must put your stuff in a bag that has not touched any other surface suspected of carrying spores. That includes the back of your pick up truck you threw your expensive dusty caving helmet and gear into.. How many have decontaminated their vehicles? Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, it all carries the same dirt from the last cave you were in. How about the dirt under your fingernails? Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? Really scrubbed under those fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up caving gear, decontaminate it, then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty again because you just touched decontaminated gear with fingernails that still contain dirt under them, i.e. spores, if you ever had any in the first place. Now, does this sound completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. Therefore, the entire idea of decontaminating your gear is equally just a feel good measure. Pick up any medical book on sterile technique, then come back and still support the idea of field decontamination. It doesn't work. Same as a petition. Some individuals need a cause. Seems like the person mentioned below has found theirs, with complete disregard to fact or practicality. By the way, suppose you close all the caves? What are you going to do- stop the bats from going into them? Tell them to wipe their feet? How about a warm devon bath before flying out? Or that they are restricted to just one cave? The entire thought is as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, decontamination, or any other hypothesis that is not supported by scientific, reproducible results. Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you like. All of this is simply emotion based bad science. Carl……. On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John
Re: [SWR] Petition to keep public caves open to the public
On Apr 13, 2012, at 2:58 PM, Carl Pagano wrote: It is what I have been saying. There is NO scientific evidence that this is human spread. That involves work, including a control, and test group. After a conclusion has been reached, the experiment must be able to be repeated, several times, with the same results to support the original hypothesis. That humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it. It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, and then say that you've done all that you can, when even your hair probably carries the spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable gear, so that each time you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, spore free gear, the effort is futile. How many can say that they have immersed their expensive caving helmet and lamp in decontaminant each and every time before they go into a cave? Washed your cave suit lately? You bet you have! Made you feel good that you were doing your part to contain WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just put it back into the same dirty tote you got it out of. May look clean but guess again. You must put your stuff in a bag that has not touched any other surface suspected of carrying spores. That includes the back of your pick up truck you threw your expensive dusty caving helmet and gear into.. How many have decontaminated their vehicles? Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, it all carries the same dirt from the last cave you were in. How about the dirt under your fingernails? Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? Really scrubbed under those fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up caving gear, decontaminate it, then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty again because you just touched decontaminated gear with fingernails that still contain dirt under them, i.e. spores, if you ever had any in the first place. Now, does this sound completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. Therefore, the entire idea of decontaminating your gear is equally just a feel good measure. Pick up any medical book on sterile technique, then come back and still support the idea of field decontamination. It doesn't work. Same as a petition. Some individuals need a cause. Seems like the person mentioned below has found theirs, with complete disregard to fact or practicality. By the way, suppose you close all the caves? What are you going to do- stop the bats from going into them? Tell them to wipe their feet? How about a warm devon bath before flying out? Or that they are restricted to just one cave? The entire thought is as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, decontamination, or any other hypothesis that is not supported by scientific, reproducible results. Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you like. All of this is simply emotion based bad science. Carl……. On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation
[SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo
I enlarged it….maybe the battery pack of an easter seal lamp on the guy in the middle? Also the helmet on the woman in the front has a ridge on the top. Looks old. Maybe Bob and Bob or other cave vendors can i.d. the helmet, and give a better idea of how old the pic is….Carl….. On Apr 3, 2012, at 9:52 AM, Bilbo, Michael J wrote: Trying to enlarge that on a Blackberry blurs it out too fast. So, in a brilliant combination of new and old technology (I bought a magnifying glass), yep - a wheatlamp and what appear to be Bomber Gear kneepads - possibly from the BLM cache. The big guy in the back looks like Frank Everitt but still couldn't zero in enough. I don't have Frank's email on this device so if anyone has the current, please forward to him and ask him to confirm yea or nay to Linda. From: Linda Starr [mailto:lstarr...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:09 AM To: Southwestern Region s...@caver.net Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo Hi All, This photo is being used in the Lincoln Caverns Discovery story written by Lee Skinner for the 50th Anniversary Memoir booklet. Does anyone out there recognize this photo and know who the people are and what year this was taken? Let me know if you know anything about it. Linda Starr ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo
I enlarged it….maybe the battery pack of an easter seal lamp on the guy in the middle? Also the helmet on the woman in the front has a ridge on the top. Looks old. Maybe Bob and Bob or other cave vendors can i.d. the helmet, and give a better idea of how old the pic is….Carl….. On Apr 3, 2012, at 9:52 AM, Bilbo, Michael J wrote: Trying to enlarge that on a Blackberry blurs it out too fast. So, in a brilliant combination of new and old technology (I bought a magnifying glass), yep - a wheatlamp and what appear to be Bomber Gear kneepads - possibly from the BLM cache. The big guy in the back looks like Frank Everitt but still couldn't zero in enough. I don't have Frank's email on this device so if anyone has the current, please forward to him and ask him to confirm yea or nay to Linda. From: Linda Starr [mailto:lstarr...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:09 AM To: Southwestern Region s...@caver.net Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo Hi All, This photo is being used in the Lincoln Caverns Discovery story written by Lee Skinner for the 50th Anniversary Memoir booklet. Does anyone out there recognize this photo and know who the people are and what year this was taken? Let me know if you know anything about it. Linda Starr ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo
I enlarged it….maybe the battery pack of an easter seal lamp on the guy in the middle? Also the helmet on the woman in the front has a ridge on the top. Looks old. Maybe Bob and Bob or other cave vendors can i.d. the helmet, and give a better idea of how old the pic is….Carl….. On Apr 3, 2012, at 9:52 AM, Bilbo, Michael J wrote: Trying to enlarge that on a Blackberry blurs it out too fast. So, in a brilliant combination of new and old technology (I bought a magnifying glass), yep - a wheatlamp and what appear to be Bomber Gear kneepads - possibly from the BLM cache. The big guy in the back looks like Frank Everitt but still couldn't zero in enough. I don't have Frank's email on this device so if anyone has the current, please forward to him and ask him to confirm yea or nay to Linda. From: Linda Starr [mailto:lstarr...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:09 AM To: Southwestern Region s...@caver.net Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo Hi All, This photo is being used in the Lincoln Caverns Discovery story written by Lee Skinner for the 50th Anniversary Memoir booklet. Does anyone out there recognize this photo and know who the people are and what year this was taken? Let me know if you know anything about it. Linda Starr ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] WNS
Robert, I didn't speak for you or other scientists not on the CDB petition. I spoke about the petition that Aaron posted from the CBD. You yourself know the value of scientific method. If you find offense at this, then please provide proof that WNS is spread by humans, using scientific method. That is all I ask. Carl. P.S. My chairs don't have arms.and I'm still a caver. I didn't attend the regional because I just got back from a 5,000 mile solo motorcycle ride to Vancouver Island, BC, Canada... On May 30, 2011, at 11:45 AM, Robert Grubbs wrote: Please keep in mind that there are also extemist armchair cavers who like to rant for the sake of argument and rightously think they have something intelligent to say. Carl Pagano does not speak for this scientist. Dr. Robert. K. Grubbs Ph.D. On Sat May 28th, 2011 9:25 AM MDT Carl Pagano wrote: Hi Bill, and thanks. Steve mentioned a cleaned up version. Here it is. Feel free to use it as a petition, as I mentioned to Steve. Carl... Having read the petition: Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by human traffic should adhere more closely to scientific method, including all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures, and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting I have read about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by human traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were there has not been any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject. First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves, which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has also been done. A hypothesis is then formed, in this case, that further infection of caves by WNS could be spread by humans. This is the last step that has been taken to my knowledge so far. The next step is to do an experiment, using a control and a study group. At this point, everything falls flat. To my knowledge, there has not been one valid experiment to conclusively show that WNS is spread by humans. Further, after the experiment is done, the conclusions presented must be able to be duplicated with the same results. This again, has not been done to my knowledge. It is only after all of these steps are taken, in exact order, that conclusions and valid, supported decisions can be made regarding cave closures. As such, without the use of and adherence to scientific method to prove or disprove that humans are in part, spreading WNS, the closure of any cave is invalid. To be very blunt to all those who advocate the closure of caves, Prove the point, using valid scientific method. Until then the petition listed below is extremist, unsupported by any accompanying scientific data to prove or disprove that human traffic into caves is partially spreading WNS throughout U.S. caves. If the statements presented above are wrong, then prove them wrong, with valid, duplicated, supportive scientific data. Carl Pagano.Caver, 20+years Hospital based Health Care Professional, Albuquerque, New Mexico On May 28, 2011, at 8:11 AM, Bill Ellis wrote: To all; Very well stated Carl. We have a real need to return to the scientific method when considering data and making environmental policy decisions. Making assumptions, having feel good knee jerk reactions and using models does not yield the desired results in most cases. I'm still waiting for the global warming extremists to use data not obtained by modeling to support their arguments. Time to clean up the scientific act as well. Bill - Original Message - From: Carl Pagano To: s...@caver.net Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:11 AM Subject: Re: [SWR] WNS To all: Having read the petition: By the time the lawyers line up, litigation takes place, etc. the disease will either have already spread to the west, or we'll have learned correctly that this petition is one of extremism, and that the spread of WNS cannot be stopped by the blanket closure of caves. External quarantine of cavers is easy. You cannot quarantine the bats living in the caves. Why is it, that these scientists cannot understand this? Bats move, just like people do, to better digs when they want to, incredibly, without the aid of any humans including lawyers or scientists with as yet unproven theories. Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by cavers should, to paraphrase the expression, Wake Up, and Smell The Guano. This does include
Re: [SWR] WNS
Robert, I didn't speak for you or other scientists not on the CDB petition. I spoke about the petition that Aaron posted from the CBD. You yourself know the value of scientific method. If you find offense at this, then please provide proof that WNS is spread by humans, using scientific method. That is all I ask. Carl. P.S. My chairs don't have arms.and I'm still a caver. I didn't attend the regional because I just got back from a 5,000 mile solo motorcycle ride to Vancouver Island, BC, Canada... On May 30, 2011, at 11:45 AM, Robert Grubbs wrote: Please keep in mind that there are also extemist armchair cavers who like to rant for the sake of argument and rightously think they have something intelligent to say. Carl Pagano does not speak for this scientist. Dr. Robert. K. Grubbs Ph.D. On Sat May 28th, 2011 9:25 AM MDT Carl Pagano wrote: Hi Bill, and thanks. Steve mentioned a cleaned up version. Here it is. Feel free to use it as a petition, as I mentioned to Steve. Carl... Having read the petition: Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by human traffic should adhere more closely to scientific method, including all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures, and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting I have read about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by human traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were there has not been any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject. First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves, which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has also been done. A hypothesis is then formed, in this case, that further infection of caves by WNS could be spread by humans. This is the last step that has been taken to my knowledge so far. The next step is to do an experiment, using a control and a study group. At this point, everything falls flat. To my knowledge, there has not been one valid experiment to conclusively show that WNS is spread by humans. Further, after the experiment is done, the conclusions presented must be able to be duplicated with the same results. This again, has not been done to my knowledge. It is only after all of these steps are taken, in exact order, that conclusions and valid, supported decisions can be made regarding cave closures. As such, without the use of and adherence to scientific method to prove or disprove that humans are in part, spreading WNS, the closure of any cave is invalid. To be very blunt to all those who advocate the closure of caves, Prove the point, using valid scientific method. Until then the petition listed below is extremist, unsupported by any accompanying scientific data to prove or disprove that human traffic into caves is partially spreading WNS throughout U.S. caves. If the statements presented above are wrong, then prove them wrong, with valid, duplicated, supportive scientific data. Carl Pagano.Caver, 20+years Hospital based Health Care Professional, Albuquerque, New Mexico On May 28, 2011, at 8:11 AM, Bill Ellis wrote: To all; Very well stated Carl. We have a real need to return to the scientific method when considering data and making environmental policy decisions. Making assumptions, having feel good knee jerk reactions and using models does not yield the desired results in most cases. I'm still waiting for the global warming extremists to use data not obtained by modeling to support their arguments. Time to clean up the scientific act as well. Bill - Original Message - From: Carl Pagano To: s...@caver.net Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:11 AM Subject: Re: [SWR] WNS To all: Having read the petition: By the time the lawyers line up, litigation takes place, etc. the disease will either have already spread to the west, or we'll have learned correctly that this petition is one of extremism, and that the spread of WNS cannot be stopped by the blanket closure of caves. External quarantine of cavers is easy. You cannot quarantine the bats living in the caves. Why is it, that these scientists cannot understand this? Bats move, just like people do, to better digs when they want to, incredibly, without the aid of any humans including lawyers or scientists with as yet unproven theories. Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by cavers should, to paraphrase the expression, Wake Up, and Smell The Guano. This does include
Re: [SWR] WNS
Robert, I didn't speak for you or other scientists not on the CDB petition. I spoke about the petition that Aaron posted from the CBD. You yourself know the value of scientific method. If you find offense at this, then please provide proof that WNS is spread by humans, using scientific method. That is all I ask. Carl. P.S. My chairs don't have arms.and I'm still a caver. I didn't attend the regional because I just got back from a 5,000 mile solo motorcycle ride to Vancouver Island, BC, Canada... On May 30, 2011, at 11:45 AM, Robert Grubbs wrote: Please keep in mind that there are also extemist armchair cavers who like to rant for the sake of argument and rightously think they have something intelligent to say. Carl Pagano does not speak for this scientist. Dr. Robert. K. Grubbs Ph.D. On Sat May 28th, 2011 9:25 AM MDT Carl Pagano wrote: Hi Bill, and thanks. Steve mentioned a cleaned up version. Here it is. Feel free to use it as a petition, as I mentioned to Steve. Carl... Having read the petition: Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by human traffic should adhere more closely to scientific method, including all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures, and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting I have read about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by human traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were there has not been any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject. First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves, which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has also been done. A hypothesis is then formed, in this case, that further infection of caves by WNS could be spread by humans. This is the last step that has been taken to my knowledge so far. The next step is to do an experiment, using a control and a study group. At this point, everything falls flat. To my knowledge, there has not been one valid experiment to conclusively show that WNS is spread by humans. Further, after the experiment is done, the conclusions presented must be able to be duplicated with the same results. This again, has not been done to my knowledge. It is only after all of these steps are taken, in exact order, that conclusions and valid, supported decisions can be made regarding cave closures. As such, without the use of and adherence to scientific method to prove or disprove that humans are in part, spreading WNS, the closure of any cave is invalid. To be very blunt to all those who advocate the closure of caves, Prove the point, using valid scientific method. Until then the petition listed below is extremist, unsupported by any accompanying scientific data to prove or disprove that human traffic into caves is partially spreading WNS throughout U.S. caves. If the statements presented above are wrong, then prove them wrong, with valid, duplicated, supportive scientific data. Carl Pagano.Caver, 20+years Hospital based Health Care Professional, Albuquerque, New Mexico On May 28, 2011, at 8:11 AM, Bill Ellis wrote: To all; Very well stated Carl. We have a real need to return to the scientific method when considering data and making environmental policy decisions. Making assumptions, having feel good knee jerk reactions and using models does not yield the desired results in most cases. I'm still waiting for the global warming extremists to use data not obtained by modeling to support their arguments. Time to clean up the scientific act as well. Bill - Original Message - From: Carl Pagano To: s...@caver.net Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:11 AM Subject: Re: [SWR] WNS To all: Having read the petition: By the time the lawyers line up, litigation takes place, etc. the disease will either have already spread to the west, or we'll have learned correctly that this petition is one of extremism, and that the spread of WNS cannot be stopped by the blanket closure of caves. External quarantine of cavers is easy. You cannot quarantine the bats living in the caves. Why is it, that these scientists cannot understand this? Bats move, just like people do, to better digs when they want to, incredibly, without the aid of any humans including lawyers or scientists with as yet unproven theories. Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by cavers should, to paraphrase the expression, Wake Up, and Smell The Guano. This does include
Re: [SWR] WNS
To all: Having read the petition: By the time the lawyers line up, litigation takes place, etc. the disease will either have already spread to the west, or we'll have learned correctly that this petition is one of extremism, and that the spread of WNS cannot be stopped by the blanket closure of caves. External quarantine of cavers is easy. You cannot quarantine the bats living in the caves. Why is it, that these scientists cannot understand this? Bats move, just like people do, to better digs when they want to, incredibly, without the aid of any humans including lawyers or scientists with as yet unproven theories. Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by cavers should, to paraphrase the expression, Wake Up, and Smell The Guano. This does include all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures (God forbid Carlsbad is EVER closed as $$$ are involved here), and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting on SWR about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by human traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were there has not been any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject. First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves, which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has also been done. A hypothesis is then formed, in this case, that further infection of caves by WNS could be spread by humans. This is the last step that has been taken to my knowledge so far. The next step is to do an experiment, using a control and a study group. At this point, everything falls flat. To my knowledge, there has not been one valid experiment to conclusively show that WNS is spread by humans. Further, after the experiment is done, the conclusions presented must be able to be duplicated with the same results. This again, has not been done to my knowledge. It is only after all of these steps are taken, in exact order, that conclusions and valid, supported decisions can be made regarding cave closures. As such, without the use of and adherence to scientific method to prove or disprove that humans are in part, spreading WNS, the closure of any cave is invalid. To be very blunt to all those who advocate the closure of caves, either put up, or shut up. Prove the point, using valid scientific method. Until then the petition listed below is extremist, unsupported by any accompanying scientific data to prove or disprove that human traffic into caves is partially spreading WNS throughout U.S. caves. The unsupported petition in printed form is useful, but only for a camping colonic emergency. If the statements presented above are wrong, then prove them wrong, with valid, duplicated, supportive scientific data, here, on the SWR website. Carl. On May 27, 2011, at 7:06 PM, aaronjst...@hotmail.com wrote: I might be behind the times on this but this was brought to my attention today. Looks like the efforts put forth by the BLM that most cavers disagreed with were still not enough for the Center for Biological Diversity. Their website also specifically sites BLM's unwillingness to institute a blanket closure. http://www.caves.org/WNS/CBD%20Bat_APA_Petition_NOI_5-25-11.pdf Aaron Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] WNS
Hi Bill, and thanks. Steve mentioned a cleaned up version. Here it is. Feel free to use it as a petition, as I mentioned to Steve. Carl... Having read the petition: Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by human traffic should adhere more closely to scientific method, including all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures, and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting I have read about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by human traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were there has not been any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject. First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves, which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has also been done. A hypothesis is then formed, in this case, that further infection of caves by WNS could be spread by humans. This is the last step that has been taken to my knowledge so far. The next step is to do an experiment, using a control and a study group. At this point, everything falls flat. To my knowledge, there has not been one valid experiment to conclusively show that WNS is spread by humans. Further, after the experiment is done, the conclusions presented must be able to be duplicated with the same results. This again, has not been done to my knowledge. It is only after all of these steps are taken, in exact order, that conclusions and valid, supported decisions can be made regarding cave closures. As such, without the use of and adherence to scientific method to prove or disprove that humans are in part, spreading WNS, the closure of any cave is invalid. To be very blunt to all those who advocate the closure of caves, Prove the point, using valid scientific method. Until then the petition listed below is extremist, unsupported by any accompanying scientific data to prove or disprove that human traffic into caves is partially spreading WNS throughout U.S. caves. If the statements presented above are wrong, then prove them wrong, with valid, duplicated, supportive scientific data. Carl Pagano.Caver, 20+years Hospital based Health Care Professional, Albuquerque, New Mexico On May 28, 2011, at 8:11 AM, Bill Ellis wrote: To all; Very well stated Carl. We have a real need to return to the scientific method when considering data and making environmental policy decisions. Making assumptions, having feel good knee jerk reactions and using models does not yield the desired results in most cases. I'm still waiting for the global warming extremists to use data not obtained by modeling to support their arguments. Time to clean up the scientific act as well. Bill - Original Message - From: Carl Pagano To: s...@caver.net Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:11 AM Subject: Re: [SWR] WNS To all: Having read the petition: By the time the lawyers line up, litigation takes place, etc. the disease will either have already spread to the west, or we'll have learned correctly that this petition is one of extremism, and that the spread of WNS cannot be stopped by the blanket closure of caves. External quarantine of cavers is easy. You cannot quarantine the bats living in the caves. Why is it, that these scientists cannot understand this? Bats move, just like people do, to better digs when they want to, incredibly, without the aid of any humans including lawyers or scientists with as yet unproven theories. Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by cavers should, to paraphrase the expression, Wake Up, and Smell The Guano. This does include all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures (God forbid Carlsbad is EVER closed as $$$ are involved here), and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting on SWR about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by human traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were there has not been any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject. First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves, which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has
Re: [SWR] WNS
To all: Having read the petition: By the time the lawyers line up, litigation takes place, etc. the disease will either have already spread to the west, or we'll have learned correctly that this petition is one of extremism, and that the spread of WNS cannot be stopped by the blanket closure of caves. External quarantine of cavers is easy. You cannot quarantine the bats living in the caves. Why is it, that these scientists cannot understand this? Bats move, just like people do, to better digs when they want to, incredibly, without the aid of any humans including lawyers or scientists with as yet unproven theories. Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by cavers should, to paraphrase the expression, Wake Up, and Smell The Guano. This does include all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures (God forbid Carlsbad is EVER closed as $$$ are involved here), and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting on SWR about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by human traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were there has not been any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject. First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves, which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has also been done. A hypothesis is then formed, in this case, that further infection of caves by WNS could be spread by humans. This is the last step that has been taken to my knowledge so far. The next step is to do an experiment, using a control and a study group. At this point, everything falls flat. To my knowledge, there has not been one valid experiment to conclusively show that WNS is spread by humans. Further, after the experiment is done, the conclusions presented must be able to be duplicated with the same results. This again, has not been done to my knowledge. It is only after all of these steps are taken, in exact order, that conclusions and valid, supported decisions can be made regarding cave closures. As such, without the use of and adherence to scientific method to prove or disprove that humans are in part, spreading WNS, the closure of any cave is invalid. To be very blunt to all those who advocate the closure of caves, either put up, or shut up. Prove the point, using valid scientific method. Until then the petition listed below is extremist, unsupported by any accompanying scientific data to prove or disprove that human traffic into caves is partially spreading WNS throughout U.S. caves. The unsupported petition in printed form is useful, but only for a camping colonic emergency. If the statements presented above are wrong, then prove them wrong, with valid, duplicated, supportive scientific data, here, on the SWR website. Carl. On May 27, 2011, at 7:06 PM, aaronjst...@hotmail.com wrote: I might be behind the times on this but this was brought to my attention today. Looks like the efforts put forth by the BLM that most cavers disagreed with were still not enough for the Center for Biological Diversity. Their website also specifically sites BLM's unwillingness to institute a blanket closure. http://www.caves.org/WNS/CBD%20Bat_APA_Petition_NOI_5-25-11.pdf Aaron Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] WNS
Hi Bill, and thanks. Steve mentioned a cleaned up version. Here it is. Feel free to use it as a petition, as I mentioned to Steve. Carl... Having read the petition: Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by human traffic should adhere more closely to scientific method, including all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures, and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting I have read about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by human traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were there has not been any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject. First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves, which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has also been done. A hypothesis is then formed, in this case, that further infection of caves by WNS could be spread by humans. This is the last step that has been taken to my knowledge so far. The next step is to do an experiment, using a control and a study group. At this point, everything falls flat. To my knowledge, there has not been one valid experiment to conclusively show that WNS is spread by humans. Further, after the experiment is done, the conclusions presented must be able to be duplicated with the same results. This again, has not been done to my knowledge. It is only after all of these steps are taken, in exact order, that conclusions and valid, supported decisions can be made regarding cave closures. As such, without the use of and adherence to scientific method to prove or disprove that humans are in part, spreading WNS, the closure of any cave is invalid. To be very blunt to all those who advocate the closure of caves, Prove the point, using valid scientific method. Until then the petition listed below is extremist, unsupported by any accompanying scientific data to prove or disprove that human traffic into caves is partially spreading WNS throughout U.S. caves. If the statements presented above are wrong, then prove them wrong, with valid, duplicated, supportive scientific data. Carl Pagano.Caver, 20+years Hospital based Health Care Professional, Albuquerque, New Mexico On May 28, 2011, at 8:11 AM, Bill Ellis wrote: To all; Very well stated Carl. We have a real need to return to the scientific method when considering data and making environmental policy decisions. Making assumptions, having feel good knee jerk reactions and using models does not yield the desired results in most cases. I'm still waiting for the global warming extremists to use data not obtained by modeling to support their arguments. Time to clean up the scientific act as well. Bill - Original Message - From: Carl Pagano To: s...@caver.net Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:11 AM Subject: Re: [SWR] WNS To all: Having read the petition: By the time the lawyers line up, litigation takes place, etc. the disease will either have already spread to the west, or we'll have learned correctly that this petition is one of extremism, and that the spread of WNS cannot be stopped by the blanket closure of caves. External quarantine of cavers is easy. You cannot quarantine the bats living in the caves. Why is it, that these scientists cannot understand this? Bats move, just like people do, to better digs when they want to, incredibly, without the aid of any humans including lawyers or scientists with as yet unproven theories. Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by cavers should, to paraphrase the expression, Wake Up, and Smell The Guano. This does include all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures (God forbid Carlsbad is EVER closed as $$$ are involved here), and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting on SWR about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by human traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were there has not been any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject. First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves, which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has
Re: [SWR] WNS
To all: Having read the petition: By the time the lawyers line up, litigation takes place, etc. the disease will either have already spread to the west, or we'll have learned correctly that this petition is one of extremism, and that the spread of WNS cannot be stopped by the blanket closure of caves. External quarantine of cavers is easy. You cannot quarantine the bats living in the caves. Why is it, that these scientists cannot understand this? Bats move, just like people do, to better digs when they want to, incredibly, without the aid of any humans including lawyers or scientists with as yet unproven theories. Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by cavers should, to paraphrase the expression, Wake Up, and Smell The Guano. This does include all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures (God forbid Carlsbad is EVER closed as $$$ are involved here), and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting on SWR about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by human traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were there has not been any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject. First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves, which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has also been done. A hypothesis is then formed, in this case, that further infection of caves by WNS could be spread by humans. This is the last step that has been taken to my knowledge so far. The next step is to do an experiment, using a control and a study group. At this point, everything falls flat. To my knowledge, there has not been one valid experiment to conclusively show that WNS is spread by humans. Further, after the experiment is done, the conclusions presented must be able to be duplicated with the same results. This again, has not been done to my knowledge. It is only after all of these steps are taken, in exact order, that conclusions and valid, supported decisions can be made regarding cave closures. As such, without the use of and adherence to scientific method to prove or disprove that humans are in part, spreading WNS, the closure of any cave is invalid. To be very blunt to all those who advocate the closure of caves, either put up, or shut up. Prove the point, using valid scientific method. Until then the petition listed below is extremist, unsupported by any accompanying scientific data to prove or disprove that human traffic into caves is partially spreading WNS throughout U.S. caves. The unsupported petition in printed form is useful, but only for a camping colonic emergency. If the statements presented above are wrong, then prove them wrong, with valid, duplicated, supportive scientific data, here, on the SWR website. Carl. On May 27, 2011, at 7:06 PM, aaronjst...@hotmail.com wrote: I might be behind the times on this but this was brought to my attention today. Looks like the efforts put forth by the BLM that most cavers disagreed with were still not enough for the Center for Biological Diversity. Their website also specifically sites BLM's unwillingness to institute a blanket closure. http://www.caves.org/WNS/CBD%20Bat_APA_Petition_NOI_5-25-11.pdf Aaron Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] WNS
Hi Bill, and thanks. Steve mentioned a cleaned up version. Here it is. Feel free to use it as a petition, as I mentioned to Steve. Carl... Having read the petition: Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by human traffic should adhere more closely to scientific method, including all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures, and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting I have read about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by human traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were there has not been any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject. First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves, which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has also been done. A hypothesis is then formed, in this case, that further infection of caves by WNS could be spread by humans. This is the last step that has been taken to my knowledge so far. The next step is to do an experiment, using a control and a study group. At this point, everything falls flat. To my knowledge, there has not been one valid experiment to conclusively show that WNS is spread by humans. Further, after the experiment is done, the conclusions presented must be able to be duplicated with the same results. This again, has not been done to my knowledge. It is only after all of these steps are taken, in exact order, that conclusions and valid, supported decisions can be made regarding cave closures. As such, without the use of and adherence to scientific method to prove or disprove that humans are in part, spreading WNS, the closure of any cave is invalid. To be very blunt to all those who advocate the closure of caves, Prove the point, using valid scientific method. Until then the petition listed below is extremist, unsupported by any accompanying scientific data to prove or disprove that human traffic into caves is partially spreading WNS throughout U.S. caves. If the statements presented above are wrong, then prove them wrong, with valid, duplicated, supportive scientific data. Carl Pagano.Caver, 20+years Hospital based Health Care Professional, Albuquerque, New Mexico On May 28, 2011, at 8:11 AM, Bill Ellis wrote: To all; Very well stated Carl. We have a real need to return to the scientific method when considering data and making environmental policy decisions. Making assumptions, having feel good knee jerk reactions and using models does not yield the desired results in most cases. I'm still waiting for the global warming extremists to use data not obtained by modeling to support their arguments. Time to clean up the scientific act as well. Bill - Original Message - From: Carl Pagano To: s...@caver.net Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:11 AM Subject: Re: [SWR] WNS To all: Having read the petition: By the time the lawyers line up, litigation takes place, etc. the disease will either have already spread to the west, or we'll have learned correctly that this petition is one of extremism, and that the spread of WNS cannot be stopped by the blanket closure of caves. External quarantine of cavers is easy. You cannot quarantine the bats living in the caves. Why is it, that these scientists cannot understand this? Bats move, just like people do, to better digs when they want to, incredibly, without the aid of any humans including lawyers or scientists with as yet unproven theories. Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by cavers should, to paraphrase the expression, Wake Up, and Smell The Guano. This does include all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures (God forbid Carlsbad is EVER closed as $$$ are involved here), and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting on SWR about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by human traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were there has not been any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject. First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves, which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has
[SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures
I had sent this just to Donna as a reply, but feel that, again, all levity aside, that there is merit in the suggestion of one person to coordinate cave closures or not, for all three agencies, if this is even possible.You can't close just some of the caves, leaving others open such as Carlsbad, with the huge bat population there. It doesn't make sense, nor is it productive, or conducive to understanding the problem of the spread of WNS. I do not advocate the closing of the caves due to WNS-BUT, if is coming to that, then close all the caves, for the reasons stated below. Carl.. Begin forwarded message: From: Carl Pagano pagan...@comcast.net Date: April 29, 2011 10:46:42 AM MDT To: dhum...@blm.gov Subject: Re: [SWR] Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures I had suspected that. Years ago, I helped put in the bat gate. All levity aside, it would be prudent, and look a lot better, if the agencies, i.e. NPS, FS, and BLM, got together for a coordinated effort.. Doing this piecemeal looks bad and is not a scientific method for determining the spread of WNS. Either close all the caves, including Carlsbad, or leave all of them open. Bats, are intelligent, and will find a new gig if conditions looks better. You can't stop that. All three agencies should coordinate and make a decision very quickly to close all the caves or not close them. By closing all caves to human traffic, a more scientific determination can be made as to the spread of WNS, i.e. if you still see the spread of WNS, then you can prove beyond any doubt that it wasn't because of human traffic. Carlsbad is the kicker,people come from all over the country to see Carlsbad. This has an obvious big impact on the City of Carlsbad. How do you close an entire National Park, at least on the inside? I wonder what the percentage is of people who come from back east where WNS is prevalent? Remember too, that spores are almost indestructible, except with some pretty nasty chemicals. Spores are made by some organisms just so they can survive in adverse conditions. In some cases producing spores is a last resort by the organism to survive. Understand, that I am not a scientist. I work in a hospital, where we deal with spores and contamination often. Unfortunately, the only thing that kills spores is something severe, like a 409, or simple soap and water, which is impractical in a cave environment. Seems that this issue needs to be settled, with all three agencies involved in a coordinated effort. A suggestion, as has been done in the past with other issues, would be to appoint one person to direct all three agencies regarding WNS and what to do about it. Doing this piecemeal looks foolish, non-productive, and is not compatible with any scientific method, nor does it promote true scientific study. Carl.. On Apr 29, 2011, at 7:30 AM, dhum...@blm.gov wrote: Carl, Yellowjacket is closed. Donna Hummel Deputy Chief, Office of External Affairs USDI, Bureau of Land Management New Mexico State Office 301 Dinosaur Trail Santa Fe, NM 87508 Office: 505/954-2019 Cell:505/660-8528 Fax:505/954-2010 Email:dhum...@blm.gov ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures
Aaron. Please clarify thisthey actually installed misters of 409 in the cave? This doesn't seem probable. Does it get on people? There are a host of problems with people being misted with 409. Also, if it really is true, what about the cave biota in general? I guess there must be sacrifices.. This does seem incredulous at best, and dumber than dumb if it is true. Carl. On Apr 28, 2011, at 9:16 PM, aaronjst...@hotmail.com wrote: The main cave won't be a problem. Following in the footsteps of Kartchner Caverns, the NPS has installed misters throughout the cave. Instead of water, these will be spraying 409. Aaron Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Larry Pardue n...@warpdriveonline.com Sender: swr-boun...@caver.net Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 20:21:21 To: jenniferbigredfo...@yahoo.com Cc: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures
I had sent this just to Donna as a reply, but feel that, again, all levity aside, that there is merit in the suggestion of one person to coordinate cave closures or not, for all three agencies, if this is even possible.You can't close just some of the caves, leaving others open such as Carlsbad, with the huge bat population there. It doesn't make sense, nor is it productive, or conducive to understanding the problem of the spread of WNS. I do not advocate the closing of the caves due to WNS-BUT, if is coming to that, then close all the caves, for the reasons stated below. Carl.. Begin forwarded message: From: Carl Pagano pagan...@comcast.net Date: April 29, 2011 10:46:42 AM MDT To: dhum...@blm.gov Subject: Re: [SWR] Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures I had suspected that. Years ago, I helped put in the bat gate. All levity aside, it would be prudent, and look a lot better, if the agencies, i.e. NPS, FS, and BLM, got together for a coordinated effort.. Doing this piecemeal looks bad and is not a scientific method for determining the spread of WNS. Either close all the caves, including Carlsbad, or leave all of them open. Bats, are intelligent, and will find a new gig if conditions looks better. You can't stop that. All three agencies should coordinate and make a decision very quickly to close all the caves or not close them. By closing all caves to human traffic, a more scientific determination can be made as to the spread of WNS, i.e. if you still see the spread of WNS, then you can prove beyond any doubt that it wasn't because of human traffic. Carlsbad is the kicker,people come from all over the country to see Carlsbad. This has an obvious big impact on the City of Carlsbad. How do you close an entire National Park, at least on the inside? I wonder what the percentage is of people who come from back east where WNS is prevalent? Remember too, that spores are almost indestructible, except with some pretty nasty chemicals. Spores are made by some organisms just so they can survive in adverse conditions. In some cases producing spores is a last resort by the organism to survive. Understand, that I am not a scientist. I work in a hospital, where we deal with spores and contamination often. Unfortunately, the only thing that kills spores is something severe, like a 409, or simple soap and water, which is impractical in a cave environment. Seems that this issue needs to be settled, with all three agencies involved in a coordinated effort. A suggestion, as has been done in the past with other issues, would be to appoint one person to direct all three agencies regarding WNS and what to do about it. Doing this piecemeal looks foolish, non-productive, and is not compatible with any scientific method, nor does it promote true scientific study. Carl.. On Apr 29, 2011, at 7:30 AM, dhum...@blm.gov wrote: Carl, Yellowjacket is closed. Donna Hummel Deputy Chief, Office of External Affairs USDI, Bureau of Land Management New Mexico State Office 301 Dinosaur Trail Santa Fe, NM 87508 Office: 505/954-2019 Cell:505/660-8528 Fax:505/954-2010 Email:dhum...@blm.gov ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures
Aaron. Please clarify thisthey actually installed misters of 409 in the cave? This doesn't seem probable. Does it get on people? There are a host of problems with people being misted with 409. Also, if it really is true, what about the cave biota in general? I guess there must be sacrifices.. This does seem incredulous at best, and dumber than dumb if it is true. Carl. On Apr 28, 2011, at 9:16 PM, aaronjst...@hotmail.com wrote: The main cave won't be a problem. Following in the footsteps of Kartchner Caverns, the NPS has installed misters throughout the cave. Instead of water, these will be spraying 409. Aaron Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Larry Pardue n...@warpdriveonline.com Sender: swr-boun...@caver.net Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 20:21:21 To: jenniferbigredfo...@yahoo.com Cc: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures
I had sent this just to Donna as a reply, but feel that, again, all levity aside, that there is merit in the suggestion of one person to coordinate cave closures or not, for all three agencies, if this is even possible.You can't close just some of the caves, leaving others open such as Carlsbad, with the huge bat population there. It doesn't make sense, nor is it productive, or conducive to understanding the problem of the spread of WNS. I do not advocate the closing of the caves due to WNS-BUT, if is coming to that, then close all the caves, for the reasons stated below. Carl.. Begin forwarded message: From: Carl Pagano pagan...@comcast.net Date: April 29, 2011 10:46:42 AM MDT To: dhum...@blm.gov Subject: Re: [SWR] Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures I had suspected that. Years ago, I helped put in the bat gate. All levity aside, it would be prudent, and look a lot better, if the agencies, i.e. NPS, FS, and BLM, got together for a coordinated effort.. Doing this piecemeal looks bad and is not a scientific method for determining the spread of WNS. Either close all the caves, including Carlsbad, or leave all of them open. Bats, are intelligent, and will find a new gig if conditions looks better. You can't stop that. All three agencies should coordinate and make a decision very quickly to close all the caves or not close them. By closing all caves to human traffic, a more scientific determination can be made as to the spread of WNS, i.e. if you still see the spread of WNS, then you can prove beyond any doubt that it wasn't because of human traffic. Carlsbad is the kicker,people come from all over the country to see Carlsbad. This has an obvious big impact on the City of Carlsbad. How do you close an entire National Park, at least on the inside? I wonder what the percentage is of people who come from back east where WNS is prevalent? Remember too, that spores are almost indestructible, except with some pretty nasty chemicals. Spores are made by some organisms just so they can survive in adverse conditions. In some cases producing spores is a last resort by the organism to survive. Understand, that I am not a scientist. I work in a hospital, where we deal with spores and contamination often. Unfortunately, the only thing that kills spores is something severe, like a 409, or simple soap and water, which is impractical in a cave environment. Seems that this issue needs to be settled, with all three agencies involved in a coordinated effort. A suggestion, as has been done in the past with other issues, would be to appoint one person to direct all three agencies regarding WNS and what to do about it. Doing this piecemeal looks foolish, non-productive, and is not compatible with any scientific method, nor does it promote true scientific study. Carl.. On Apr 29, 2011, at 7:30 AM, dhum...@blm.gov wrote: Carl, Yellowjacket is closed. Donna Hummel Deputy Chief, Office of External Affairs USDI, Bureau of Land Management New Mexico State Office 301 Dinosaur Trail Santa Fe, NM 87508 Office: 505/954-2019 Cell:505/660-8528 Fax:505/954-2010 Email:dhum...@blm.gov ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures
I bet the world that they won't do it because of economic reasons. Can you imagine the uproar in that southern New Mexico City if that happened? But,. seriously, I am trying hard to think positive here, and am hoping for the most altruistic of outcomes, that of bats vs. economics, if indeed closing caves is proven to be the way to limit the spread of WNS. It could involve some economic hardship there if that happened. Lake is remote, with lots of bats and a water source in the cave, and Ogle of course is Ranger Guided. I wonder if they will close New (Slaughter) Cave too. Not sure where Goat Cave is. What about adjacent caves on BLM and Forest service lands with bats in them? Yellow Jacket comes to mind. I remember a bat gate being put in some years ago. .. Of course, we could just ask the bats to pick a cave and stay in it, and not move around a lot..or in the big cave, to not use the public entrance when they leave in the evening and stay in their own part of the cave the rest of the timeStay (looney) tuned folks, it could get interesting.Carl On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:21 PM, Larry Pardue wrote: Hmm, I wonder about the cave that actually has all the bats? Shouldn't that one be closed? Larry Pardue On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:17 PM, jennifer wrote: I will post the attachment on the SWR Info webpage shortly. http://www.caves.org/region/swr/links.html -- Forwarded message -- From: Rhinehart RMC rhineh...@rockymountaincaving.com Date: Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 3:03 PM Subject: [Colorado Cave Survey] Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures Dear Colleagues: Owing to concerns about the spread of White Nose Syndrome, Carlsbad Caverns National Park in southeastern New Mexico has announced the closure of several back country caves. These caves include Ogle, Lake, and Goat Caves. I have attached the most recent brochure of the caves in the park, received this afternoon from Paula J. Bauer, the park’s Management Assistant. Richard Rhinehart -- Carlsbad Caverns Rec Caving Brochure 2011_04.pdf___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures
I bet the world that they won't do it because of economic reasons. Can you imagine the uproar in that southern New Mexico City if that happened? But,. seriously, I am trying hard to think positive here, and am hoping for the most altruistic of outcomes, that of bats vs. economics, if indeed closing caves is proven to be the way to limit the spread of WNS. It could involve some economic hardship there if that happened. Lake is remote, with lots of bats and a water source in the cave, and Ogle of course is Ranger Guided. I wonder if they will close New (Slaughter) Cave too. Not sure where Goat Cave is. What about adjacent caves on BLM and Forest service lands with bats in them? Yellow Jacket comes to mind. I remember a bat gate being put in some years ago. .. Of course, we could just ask the bats to pick a cave and stay in it, and not move around a lot..or in the big cave, to not use the public entrance when they leave in the evening and stay in their own part of the cave the rest of the timeStay (looney) tuned folks, it could get interesting.Carl On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:21 PM, Larry Pardue wrote: Hmm, I wonder about the cave that actually has all the bats? Shouldn't that one be closed? Larry Pardue On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:17 PM, jennifer wrote: I will post the attachment on the SWR Info webpage shortly. http://www.caves.org/region/swr/links.html -- Forwarded message -- From: Rhinehart RMC rhineh...@rockymountaincaving.com Date: Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 3:03 PM Subject: [Colorado Cave Survey] Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures Dear Colleagues: Owing to concerns about the spread of White Nose Syndrome, Carlsbad Caverns National Park in southeastern New Mexico has announced the closure of several back country caves. These caves include Ogle, Lake, and Goat Caves. I have attached the most recent brochure of the caves in the park, received this afternoon from Paula J. Bauer, the park’s Management Assistant. Richard Rhinehart -- Carlsbad Caverns Rec Caving Brochure 2011_04.pdf___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[SWR] BLM/Ft Stanton
Can sum this up very simply Bureau of Land MISmanagement. Carl___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[SWR] BLM/Ft Stanton
Can sum this up very simply Bureau of Land MISmanagement. Carl___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[SWR] BLM/Ft Stanton
Can sum this up very simply Bureau of Land MISmanagement. Carl___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] FW: BLM News Release:
Interesting that Carlsbad Caverns, home to how many tens of thousands of bats, and visited by how many tens of thousands of people, MANY from states where WNS is in full swing, is not closed. Ah, the real reason...it generates MONEYI know that it is NPS, but what good is a knee jerk reaction from the BLM going to do except alleviate some consciences, thus allowing them to throw up their hands to the sky and say that they honestly did all they could..HOW PATHETIC on the part of BLM. ALSO HOW TYPICAL. Just a thought..WOULD A LITTLE REAL SCIENCE help here folks??? And YES, it is my, and millions of others TAX DOLLARS that are paying for this knee-jerk jerk-asenine reaction. Thank you. Carl.. On Jan 26, 2011, at 9:05 AM, Ken Harrington wrote: Here is a notice from BLM for anyone who did not see Jennifer's e-mail on the same subject. Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. Subject: BLM News Release: To: kmcar...@fs.fed.us; amorri...@fs.fed.us; paula_ba...@nps.gov; martin.frent...@state.nm.us; dhum...@blm.gov; leslie_del...@nps.gov; spo...@fs.fed.us; dgilles...@nckri.org;mcha...@fs.fed.us; blbarr...@fs.fed.us; gv...@nckri.org; ll...@gis.nmt.edu; ken_harring...@hotmail.com; wthrsw...@carlsbadnm.com; frank.ever...@gmail.com; r...@innerrealmbooks.com;p...@innerrealmbooks.com; william.tuc...@att.net; bel...@valornet.com; bels...@valornet.com; dgilles...@nckri.org; deserttr...@msn.com; cavexplo...@me.com; bill.wes...@wipp.ws;skin...@thuntek.net; gyp...@gmail.com; caverp...@gmail.com; klairwa...@gmail.com; dave.dec...@caves.org; john_j_corcoran_...@msn.com; bigredfo...@yahoo.com;guinnes...@aol.com; kief...@unm.edu; caver...@yahoo.com; wcwal...@zianet.com; gypca...@comcast.net; nmba...@zianet.com; robw...@wwdb.org; dnort...@unm.edu;ing...@explorenm.com; cavewe...@windstream.net; william.tuc...@att.net; kjhu...@unm.edu; wnsliai...@caves.org; caver...@gmail.com; mbbi...@yahoo.com;marikay_ram...@blm.gov; wmerh...@blm.gov; dhum...@blm.gov; dbur...@blm.gov; cherieedwa...@fs.fed.us; pb...@fs.fed.us; cschm...@blm.gov; john_benja...@nps.gov;gzi...@fs.fed.us; paula_ba...@nps.gov; jerry_tr...@fs.fed.us; dale_p...@nps.gov; aaron_stock...@blm.gov; tom_buck...@fws.gov; blbarr...@fs.fed.us; kjo...@blm.gov;lindsey_e...@blm.gov; t...@blm.gov; brianda...@fs.fed.us; dow...@fs.fed.us; mhakk...@blm.gov; jbarn...@blm.gov; earme...@fs.fed.us; ray_lis...@blm.gov; lcord...@fs.fed.us;tom_phill...@blm.gov; oswaldo_go...@blm.gov; kayci_c...@nps.gov; james_good...@blm.gov; mike_bi...@blm.gov; clay_...@slo.state.nm.us; paul_barr...@fws.gov;cyndee_wat...@fws.gov; james.stu...@state.nm.us; blbol...@fs.fed.us From: dhum...@blm.gov Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 08:40:37 -0700 Hi all, Sorry for the delay in forwarding this. The federal register notice defining BLM's initial closure of 28 caves with significant bat roosts was published yesterday. Here is the news release that went to media late yesterday - received wide coverage overnight with AP, NPR and others. White-Nose Syndrome Threat Closes 28 BLM Caves in New Mexico Santa Fe – The Bureau of Land Management published notice in the Federal Register today closing 28 caves to public visitation for the next two years in an effort to reduce the threat of White-nose Syndrome to bats. The temporary closures affect caves that are known to have significant bat roosts. White-nose syndrome (WNS) is a disease that has killed over one million hibernating bats in the East and Southeast in the past four years. The fungus associated with the disease, Geomyces destructans, was found on a bat in western Oklahoma last May thus elevating the concern that the fungus might next arrive in New Mexico. The fungus is known to be transmitted from bat to bat and from cave to bat. Scientific data also indicates that fungal spores may be spread inadvertently by humans, their clothing, or caving gear from one cave, mine or bat roost to another. Today’s closure notice is a continuation of the interagency efforts to protect New Mexico’s bats that included the development of the White-nose Syndrome Interagency Response Plan for New Mexico in November 2010. Various user groups and interested publics provided input into the state plan and helped develop criteria used to identify significant caves and strategies for preventing human transmission of the fungus. The following BLM caves are now closed: Field Office BLM Caves Closed Due to WNS Roswell Bat Hole, Big-eared, Corn Sinkhole, Crockett's, Crystal, Feather, Fly, Fort Stanton, Malpais Madness, Smiley, Sun Spot, Torgac's, Torgac's Annex, Tres Ninos and Martin-Antelope Gyp Cave Complex Carlsbad Billy the Kid, Dry, Endless, McKittrick, Rusty Hinge, Sand, Adobe, and Yellowjacket Las
Re: [SWR] [NMCAVER] Fw: Breaking News - NM's El Malpais National Monument Closes Caves
This is the government. What does anyone expect?. If you look at the quality of most elected officials it will be made quite clear. These are not people that you would NOT invite for Christmas dinner.. There are four things that government does extremely well.. The first is to overreact to anything. The second is to (eventually) throw enormous sums of money at things. The third is to issue press releases to make believe that the problem has gone away based on the first two. The fourth, is denial of anything ever happening. Does this clarify things? If not, Please Read Civil Disobedience, by Henry David Thoreau. Carl. On Dec 8, 2010, at 10:48 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: On 12/08/2010 13:03, jennifer wrote: Subject: Breaking News - NM's El Mapais National Monument Closes Caves http://www.nps.gov/elma/loader.cfm?csModule=security/ getfilePageID=522060 And so it begins. Probably a tipping point...it should not be unexpected if other areas/agencies follow suit in relatively short order. No agency wants to be the one that can be pointed to as having 'not done enough'. Such events just need somebody to go first and then the thing runs like a slinky down stairs. I'm surprised that we had not heard of this sooner given that the press release was dated Nov 22. So, to summarize... a) No demonstrated human vector; pure, unsubstantiated speculation in every announcement to date as to a human component. b) No evidence of WNS anywhere in NM. c) A minimum of 300 air miles between NW Oklahoma and El Malpais. d) Next closest confirmed incident approx. 1000 air miles east in eastern Missouri. e) No additional Oklahoma reports since the May 2010 single occurrence, nor of any other occurrences elsewhere in adjacent states; thus no evidence or even trend data to suggest a spread either is occurring or is at risk of doing so. f) The Oklahoma incident is of a different quality. Oklahoma Department of Wildlife notes: ...the pattern of infection was not consistent with the White Nose Syndrome infection observed in bats in the eastern United States. There also has not been a mortality event attributable to White Nose Syndrome in Oklahoma to date. The next closest known report of the fungus occurred in eastern Missouri earlier this year. To date, all of the White Nose Syndrome cases have been east of the Mississippi River. Ergo, in the absence of any documented facts specific to the park (or area, or state, and thus a question as to what is the compelling need?) the caves must be closed now. Very logical in some folks' minds, I guess. The NPS does not present a very compelling WNS case in their rambling catch-all explanation of the closure. The action surely appears more opportunistic than necessary, given the prospective nature of their language. Stephen Fleming _ Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. – Aldous Huxley If the facts do not conform to the theory, they must be disposed of. – Maier’s Law The facts, although interesting, are irrelevant. – Unknown The fewer the facts, the stranger the opinion. – Arnold H. Glascow ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[SWR] Reply
Donald has an excellent point.Perhaps the caves could be left open, and people could be frisked for stowaway bats.TSA would be thrilled at this..Carl ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [NMCAVER] [SandiaGrotto] Lava River Cave graffiti removal
Ray, Iff'in th' reprter kaint raaght prop'r angleesh, then hown' we supposd te unerstaind 'im? Y'all doin eh gud job, jes git th' reprter t' raaght beater. Oh, an lusen up!!, th' lass laan wus gud fer a howl,..y'allFahnley, e'vbody har sez hey Ray!.Carl On Sep 19, 2010, at 9:23 PM, Ray Keeler wrote: I must admit that I am a bit offended by Lee's comment below. There has been substantial graffiti placed in Lava River Cave over this last summer. 20 of us participated in the graffiti removal effort using the PCCP sandblasting equipment. Friday we laid 3900 feet of high pressure hose and tested it. Saturday we started from the back, where the tagging was the worst, and worked towards the entrance. Sunday we started before 9AM and cut off sandblasting at noon and extracted equipment. Rich Bohman coordinated underground activities and did a great job. The Coconino NF invested substantial resources, including law enforcement, administrative, signage, and two on-site rangers to help. We were able to clean all of the tags in the cave with the exception of two closest to the entrance, when we ran out of time. thanks, Ray - Original Message - From: Lee H. Skinner skin...@thuntek.net To: nmcaver list nmca...@caver.net; texascavers list texascavers@texascavers.com; Internal Communications of the Sandia Grotto sandiagro...@caver.net Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 9:42 AM Subject: [SandiaGrotto] Lava River Cave graffiti removal Read the last line of this article for a good laugh. http://is.gd/fgHRs ___ SandiaGrotto mailing list sandiagro...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/sandiagrotto_caver.net ___ SandiaGrotto mailing list sandiagro...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/sandiagrotto_caver.net ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
Re: [NMCAVER] [SandiaGrotto] Lava River Cave graffiti removal
Actually, the first part of the article states that it was a cave. The last sentence reads that it was the site of a lava tube, thus implying that it isn't there anymore. If so, then the graffiti isn't real either, also implying that the author is delusional. An extrapolation of this is that he is really standing in a Wal-Mart parking lot having some sort of nervous breakdown...OR, that he really needs grammar and spell check on his computer. I'd go with the nervous breakdown. It's more interesting and sounds better. Carl. On Sep 18, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Lee H. Skinner wrote: Read the last line of this article for a good laugh. http://is.gd/fgHRs ___ SandiaGrotto mailing list sandiagro...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/sandiagrotto_caver.net ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
Re: [NMCAVER] Chinese Camper van - OT
Looks great! but.must sleep 5 thin, fit, Chinese who must be shorter in stature, OR, two 5'9 to 6 ft. 225+ lb. Americans with a 42 inch flat screen TV, microwave, beer cooler ( a must), two ATV's, bicycles which are never used, an outdoor gas grill ( also a must) a really big steel pipe front bumper ( so you can knock off Bambi cleanly), three sets of fog lamps ( deer in the headlights, etc). , and carrier rack for the occasional road kill (Bambi again) such is life..Carl. On Sep 13, 2010, at 8:52 AM, dirt...@comcast.net wrote: This has a long way to go before (if ever) it becomes available in the US. Interesting, though. DirtDoc Chinese Camper van http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/chinese-camper-could-replace- kombi-20100423-ti1x.html Great Wall Motors out of China will be importing this to Australia. Related articles show the selling price for just $50K. I assume that's Aussie dollars which is about $55K US. If it's ever imported to the US the price will surely be higher to meet safety requirements. Available in China with 4x4 and diesel. Floor plan is interesting. The top bunk in the back hinges on the wall and folds down to create the back of the sofa. Claims to sleep 5 with the crew cab. Guess there is a bunk in the rear of the cab. ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
[NMCAVER] On the lighter side-a Klingon Cave talk......
Australian caves offer new tour — in Klingon Jenolan Caves first immortalized in the Next Generation episode 'Relics' photos  AFP - Getty Images Awesome Australia by Belinda Goldsmith  updated 7/27/2010 10:22:32 AM ET Share Print Font: + - SYDNEY — Staff at the Jenolan Caves west of Sydney have added a new out-of-this-world attraction — a tour in the Star Trek language Klingon. Currently a self-guided audio tour at the caves in the Blue Mountains is offered in eight languages, but staff came up with the idea of adding the fictional language Klingon as the caves did once feature in the popular TV series. In the Star Trek universe, Jenolan Caves was first immortalized in the Next Generation episode 'Relics,' through the naming of a 'Sydney Class' Starship — the USS Jenolan, the Jenolan Caves Reserve Trust said in a statement. Now, this relationship will be developed further, when Jenolan Caves adds the language of Star Trek's great warrior race to a tour of their most popular cave. The Jenolan cave system, located about 109 miles west of Sydney, is enormous with over 40 25 miles of passages and incorporating caves, underground rivers and natural archways. The Klingon tour has been set up for the Nettle Cave, which attracts up to 200,000 visitors a year, and will start on August 22. Jenolan Caves guide Gordon Mills said Klingon language experts Michael Roney Jr and Tracy Canfield earlier this month flew in from the United States to record the audio tour. We wanted to do something a bit obscure and we will now be the first tourist attraction on this planet at least to have a Klingon tour, Mills, a self-described Star Trek enthusiast, told Reuters. There is a fantasy side to caves and a timeless nature, rather like Star Trek, so we thought this was fitting. Copyright 2010 Reuters. Click for restrictions. ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
Re: [NMCAVER] [SandiaGrotto] SWR for Labor Day
Wow! I think that this is a great idea. If there was to be a party, there wouldn't be a liability issue. Hot tubbing at a regional hasn't been done since they brought one in at Ft. Stanton years ago! I hope that the organizers of the regional take Martha up on her generous offer. Thanks Martha! Hope we do this. Carl Pagano On Jul 22, 2010, at 10:06 PM, mmcart1...@aol.com wrote: You are welcome to camp at my house. Off frost, sandia Knolls...3 acres...hot tub...grill...bathrooms Martha McArthur 505-350-9022 (cell) -Original Message- From: linda starr lst...@hubwest.com To: Artisian Caver blandev...@comcast.net; 'Internal Communications of the Sandia Grotto' sandiagro...@caver.net Sent: Thu, Jul 22, 2010 7:45 pm Subject: Re: [SandiaGrotto] SWR for Labor Day All, This sounds like a good plan for needed service and cave finding if we can get a place to camp again. Linda Starr From: Artisian Caver Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 11:01 AM To: 'linda starr' ; 'Internal Communications of the Sandia Grotto' Subject: RE: [SandiaGrotto] SWR for Labor Day I have a plan to have the SWR Labor Day Regional back at the ski area. I am writing a proposal to give to the forest service office of what we plan to accomplish. I was interested in having it there because it is in our mountains and there is still ridgewalking to be done west of Las Huertas Canyon to the rim of the sandias. There are several feeder canyons that have not been checked that I am aware of. I would also propose that we hike the western ridge of the Manzanitas near the cement factory. There are also several mines in the area that might need some checking into, whether or not they have been surveyed. I am specifically interested in the La Luz mine at the crest. Blake From: sandiagrotto-boun...@caver.net [mailto:sandiagrotto-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of linda starr Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 7:23 PM To: Internal Communications of the Sandia Grotto Subject: [SandiaGrotto] SWR for Labor Day Sandia Grotto cavers, I hope there is a final plan to be presented at the July grotto meeting on place to hold the Labor Day regional. Carol Belski will need to get info to SWR members (probably a separate mailing) by late July. They will need a map and an idea of activities. Liz was going to look into the Pronouns. I have the contact name and info of the miner who locks the gate up on top of the hill (Carol and I talked to him a few years ago) if someone wants it. But don't wait until after this Saturday to ask or I won't be here. Happy Holes, Linda Starr ___ SandiaGrotto mailing list sandiagro...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/sandiagrotto_caver.net ___ SandiaGrotto mailing list sandiagro...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/sandiagrotto_caver.net ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
[NMCAVER] Cavers as Vectors
I feel that there is a middle ground here. Yes, cavers could be vectors-or not. Yes, the fungus could be spread by bats, and or airborne. Funguses produce spores. In hospitals, certain diseases are spread by spores, hence, contact isolation-within a closed environment. Caves are not a closed environment, and cannot be strictly controlled, or isolated, unless you seal them shut. It is not a black and white issue here. What needs to be determined somehow (Fleming's reference to scientific research), is if cavers are vectors, then to what extent are they? If it is determined that they are, but to a tiny percent, then is a cave closure warranted? Suppose that cavers were a vector-say on tenth of one percent. The rest of the time, 99.9%, the disease would be spread by other factors. This is only supposition. A knee jerk reaction of closing all of the caves would be an all or nothing reaction. Using strict decon procedures and limiting the number of cavers entering a cave (as in NO to a NM convention) would be a better idea. Right now CYA regarding cave closures does two things. Makes you feel good that you've done SOMETHING ( another Fleming good point), and allows you to shirk responsibility for good scientific research-which takes TIME and EFFORT. Time and effort regarding scientific research is the only valid path to take, along with the scrapping of the all or nothing philosophy of immediate cave closures My three (or four) cents worth Carl Pagano ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
Re: [NMCAVER] WNS and what to do when it reaches NM
Unfortunately, WNS is a primary reason why conventions shouldn't be held in the West, specifically in New Mexico at this time or anytime in the near future. It seems bad enough to go back east and have to decontaminate before caving again here. How about worrying about hundreds of cavers, all at once, out here? Think about it before the presentation is offered in Vermont for a New Mexico convention. All it will take are acts of carelessness of unwashed gear in the right place at the right time. This also includes clothing, hair, and the dirt impregnated in your boots, gloves, helmet AND light, as well as ANYTHING that that gear has touched before being washed, including the plastic tote you threw it in, which also must be decontaminated before you put the clean stuff back in. This also includes the film of dirt in the carpet in your vehicle where you thew the tote and it has now touched. The vehicle must also be decontaminated where the dirty tote is placed, or the spores will get on the tote, which gets on the clean gear, etc. Multiply this by hundreds of cavers, not all supervised or versed as to sterile or decontamination techniques. It's not just about washing your hands. My understanding is that if the fungus is spread by spores, washing with soap and water is the only way to get rid of them. Germicides don't always work, or work as well. That's why the organism forms spores, for survival. Cavers may not be the root cause of the spread of WNS, but they COULD BE AN ACCELERANT of it. IS IT WORTH THE RISK? Is a convention here in New Mexico a good idea right now? Perhaps not. It would be for the best possible and UNSELFISH of all reasons: the limiting of the spread of WNS, if the convention bid were withdrawn at present. Think about this hard folks. Think about it at the regional for orderly discussion as to the bid. Think about what Mr. Lyles wrote below. There is a stinging truth to it. (Yes, I tried, but could not avoid contracting Curmudgeon's disease. Probably got it from Belski). See you in a few weeks. Carl Pagano On May 17, 2010, at 9:42 PM, John Lyles wrote: Be prepared! Learn a new pastime besides caving: something on the surface, boating, knitting, skiing, hiking, backpacking, ham radio, writing, traveling, cooking, drinking. Just think, you'll be able to save up vacation while working again! WNS will get here, bats aren't going to stop at state borders. Meanwhile, as my old grotto Commander Cody Caving Club sez, Cave 'til you Puke! jtml Cavers can continue to help by continuing to decon between caving regions and especially known bat caves, not disturbing hibernating bats, and reporting any unusual bats to their local FWS. In general, bats out west are even less studied than bats out east. If you know of a significant hibernaculum, make sure it is protected (tell your friends not to go there in winter), and monitored. We are more spread out here out west, so knowledge of hibernating bats may not be as well communicated. keep your hopes up, Jennifer ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
[NMCAVER] msnbc.com: Bat's song hits nature's highest note
Bat's song hits nature's highest note This bat has the highest pitched call of any animal ever documented, putting even the best human sopranos to shame. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36118466/ns/technology_and_science- science/from/ET This is an excellent article...Carl... ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
[NMCAVER] msnbc.com: Man dies after day trapped upside-down in cave
Does anyone know anything about this? Carl. Man dies after day trapped upside-down in cave A man stuck upside-down in a cave for more than a day died early Thursday, despite the efforts of dozens of rescuers, authorities said. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34157005/from/ET ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
[NMCAVER] Fwd: Surprise! Wife's face used in Facebook personal ad - MSNBC.com ...WARNING ABOUT USING FACEBOOK FOR CAVE RELATED STUFF
Cavers, I found this article last night on the web about Facebook. I am strongly against putting ANY cave related info on Facebook, and this is why. Please read this article and realize that ANY INFO posted, apparently is fair game, no matter what the rules say. Facebook has apologized twice about using info inappropriately. Please consider the consequences. We have long protected our caves through limited release of information. What will happen now? Carl Begin forwarded message: From: Date: July 28, 2009 6:00:53 AM MDT To: 'pagan...@hubwest.com' pagan...@hubwest.com Subject: Surprise! Wife's face used in Facebook personal ad - MSNBC.com Latest post from: Surprise! Wife's face used in Facebook personal ad ( http://redtape.msnbc.com/2009/07/hey-peter-the-ad-said-hot- singles-are-waiting-for-you-he-might-have-dismissed-the- advertisement-which-appeared-on-his-fa.html) CONFIDENTIAL PRIVILEGED Unless otherwise indicated or obvious from the nature of the following communication, the information contained herein is privileged and confidential information/work product. The communication is intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this transmission is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are not sure whether it is privileged, please immediately notify us by return email and destroy any copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication. ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
[NMCAVER] msnbc.com: Experts: Bat fungus causing wildlife threat
More on WNBS. Article found today msnbc.msn.com. Carl Experts: Bat fungus causing wildlife threat A mysterious fungus attacking America's bats could spread nationwide within years and represents the most serious threat to wildlife in a century, experts warned Congress Thursday. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31109536/from/ET/ ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
[NMCAVER] SWR auction proposal
Hi folks. In order to alleviate the money shortage alluded to in the SWR, I propose that at the Winter Tech this year we have an SWR auction. Items could be anything, including that nasty gag gift you got at your own grotto Christmas Party (anybody still got the talking fish from the Sandia Grotto party?), to recycled auction stuff from other grotto auctions, to a free night's stay (on the floor) at the Belski residence. Who knows, some might even donate some good stuff to be auctioned. Seriously, I feel that this is a great idea, and should be put forth and voted on at the upcoming SWR at Ft. Stanton. It's proven to be an excellent (almost only) source of funds for the Sandia Grotto. Why not do this for the Region and have some fun in the process. Remember, one person's junk iswell, another person's junk also, but new junk. Carl. ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
[NMCAVER] msnbc.com: Caves, ex-mines closed to help bats beat fungus
Here's more on WNBS. Carl... Caves, ex-mines closed to help bats beat fungus The U.S. Forest Service is closing thousands of caves and former mines in national forests in 33 states in an effort to control a fungus that has already killed an estimated 500,000 bats. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30523891/from/ET/ ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
[NMCAVER] E mail spam adjustment
Hi. I had to adjust my spam filter and want to make sure that I am still getting NM Caver e mail. Looking forward to the regional in March at Manhole. Carl... --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude] ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
[NMCAVER] msnbc.com: Coolest underground travel spots
This article mentions the Ice Caves in El Malpais. Good article. Carl... Coolest underground travel spots Underground exploration is part adventure, part history, and part plain curiosity. Here's some of the world's coolest must-see subterranean destinations. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27929685/from/ET/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude] ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
