Re: [TruthTalk] Old hebrew Coins found in Kentucky?
Kevin Deegan wrote: I don't care what you call the rock. DAVEH: OK. To me it seems relatively important though. And of course the RCC folks feel the same way, though they look at it quite differently. Jesus seemed to be trying to convey a message to Peter with his rock reference. It surprises me you don't think it may be important to understand what he was trying to convey. The verse says the gates of hell DAVEH: What do you think the gates of hell mean, Kevin? IMO, it refers to physical death. I assume you believe otherwise? will not prevail against the church Thye other verse teaches the church will exist througout ALL AGES DAVEH: ??? I'm not sure why you would think that. Jesus must be mistaken because you know there was a TOTAL Apostacy shortly after the last apostle died there were no more christians on earth. DAVEH: Why do you think there could not be a total apostasy unless there were no Christians on earth? From my perspective, the priesthood (the authority to act in the Lord's name) could have been withdrawn (so to speak) while believers in Jesus could have existed. >From your perspective, if there is a believer on the earth, he would have the priesthood.is that correct? To me, that is hard to understand because I don't see Biblical evidence for women having the priesthood authority. I assume you believe otherwise? WDJKa (What does Jesus know anyhow) Seems the DOGMA & tradition of men, here is "The Great Apostacy" have you the book? DAVEH: Yes. If there are no christians there is no church right? DAVEH: It does seem hard to imagine a church existing without believers. That does not mean that believers can't exist without having the authority to act in God's behalfIOW, having the priesthood authority. The RCC folks claim the authority was apostallicly passed down. Historical evidence would suggest that it became corrupted as it evolved from Biblical theology to doctrines adopted by men and commonly accepted today. The T-Doctrine is a prime example, IMO, having been a politically motivated consensus of those who wanted unity by watering down doctrinal truth. Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: True Christianity was NEVER lost Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; DAVEH: IMHO..that rock was revelation, Kevin. So, to me it makes sense that after a general apostasy (falling away), it would be a restitution of all things via revelation to the Lord's servants, the prophets. and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. EPH 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. God's word was NEVER lost DAVEH: I don't think we were referring to God's word being lost, but rather to people being lostsearching to and fro for the truth. As Isaiah recorded in 29:13. Wherefore the Lord said, For as much as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men. Rather than hear the real message of the Lord's word, they become lost due to the dogma and traditions (such as the T-Doctrine & belief in a literal lake of fire and brimstone) derived by men centuries ago. At least that's how I see it. To suggest that God's word was never lost, I think that might be short sighted thinking. Seems to me there are a lot of gaps in or knowledge of what happened in Biblical times, and what God may have revealed. Is that not why there are so many theological questions and controversies over doctrines? Furthermore, there are books written (viz, THE LOST BOOKS OF THE BIBLE) regarding material that has since been discovered. You may have lost it or may never have found it. God's word is ETERNAL & ALIVE 1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. But then again you do not trust His word DAVEH: I think I trust it far more than I trust those who purport the Bible is all God has revealed, Kevin. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Academics
In a message dated 3/28/2004 9:42:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John, I love romantic stories God is good, Izzy. He apparently saved the best for the last for both of us. John
Re: [TruthTalk] POLYANYI
In a message dated 3/28/2004 9:36:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, of course we are brothers!! We are all children of God, are we not? I see no way to consider you as anything but a brother who worships Jesus Christ. Your beliefs may not always coincide with mine, but obviously we both basically are true belivers, are we not? I can see you are a true believer, and I deem myself to be the same. Well, are you aware that you are the only Mormon I have met to date who would acknowledge my sonship in Christ. Great. I must admit that you took me a little by surprise. Perhaps within the spirit of brotherhood, we can eventually agree on what we might consider to be the essential issues that bind us together -- or whatever the correct wording might be. Looking forward to future exchanges. John Smithson
[TruthTalk] false notions
I would like to try once again to clarify my (Mormon) beliefs as to who Jesus really is. If needed, I can verify all of these assertions by biblical scripture. He is as follows: 1) The God of the Old Testament--Jehovah--he was the "I Am that I Am" that gave commandments to Moses, and delivered the Children of Israel out of Egypt. 2) He was the firstborn of all spirit creations OF the Father. (Rev 3:14) 3) All other things were created BY him (but OF the father). 4) He is the only begotten of the Father in the flesh. 5) He gave his life and blood to atone for the sins of all, as he overcame all things, including death. 6) He was the firstborn of the resurrection, having pre-eminance in all things. 7) He now reigns on the right hand of the Father (both in bodies of flesh and bone) and caringly intervenes in the affairs of men, by speaking to his ordained and authorized servants, the prophets. 8) He will again set his foot on the earth, which is his footstool, and will reign forever as King and Prince over all, in justice and equity, and his Kingdom will never end. I can't see that any of these beliefs make my Jesus different from your Jesus--unless you don't believe your own scriptures. Blaine
Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
In a message dated 3/28/2004 9:19:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Both John and Perryâs experience sound a lot like what I consider my âsalvationâ moment. Did you both consider yourselves to be âsavedâ prior to this filling experience? Izzy I have always considered myself to be saved. But, funny you should ask. After the filling, there was an evening when I was impressed that I might not have been saved prior to the experience. I put that thought behind, but, for the only time in my Christian life, I was truly afraid of being lost. John
Re: [TruthTalk] The Trinity
Kevin Deegan wrote: DAVEH: Does not the Bible suggest what God looks like when we are told Jesus is in his express image? (He 1:3) It seems logical to me that the Son would look similar to his Father. For eons without end (for eternity past) Jesus did look like he Father. JN 1 IIn the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. During ALL this time he had no body but was fully God! He had NO cause for his beginning, He was there with God. God created the universe from nothing DAVEH: Is that commonly believe by most Protestants, Kevin? Or.do many believe he organized the elements into the universe as we now know it? and with this he created the beginning of time. DAVEH: ??? Do you mean time did not exist before God created it (and the universe)? Is that also commonly believed? And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. God became FLESH, flesh did not become God. God MANIFEST in the flesh 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] The Last Days
Terry Clifton wrote: DAVEH: Do you recognize/accept the Trinity Doctrine? To me, the word doctrine means a set of principles, something concrete to use as a measuring device. I am not sure that I can describe the trinity and do justice. Your idea of one in purpose is clearly included, but I think Bill and Kevin made it more clear. I believe in a triune God. Whether for clarification we use "persons", or "personalities", or Gods, there are three. They have not only the same purpose DAVEH: When I suggested they have the same purpose, I got a lot of flak for it. Do you think of them as individual entities, Terry? (A baseball team has the same purpose), they are absolutly alike in how they think. No disagreement whatsoever on any point, at any time. They have exactly the same attributes and emotions. What one loves, they all love. What one hates, they all hate. You cannot play one against the other because they are always in total agreement. They are unified like no three humans have ever been. I wish I could explain it better -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] The Trinity
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/11/2004 11:29:12 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: Thanx for the offer, John. At this point in time, I don't think I am comfortable with understanding grace as you apparently must Why not? DAVEH: Because I think there are a few clues found in the Bible that might suggest many folks may misunderstand the nature and relationship of grace & works. The scriptures and biblical references to grace verses law are in the same Bible Mormons possess. Right there in black and white. Jere 31:31-34 reads the same as in my Bible. DAVEH: Are you of the house of Israel, John? (vs 33) Romans 3 bears the same teaching. DAVEH: And in conclusion, Paul reminds us not to neglect the law. Hebrews explains the same redemptive sacrifice. I Cor 8:1-3 makes our relationship in love with God more important than religious oriented (or any other kind) knowledge as precisely in your Bible as mineand so on. DAVEH: I think it is important to consider who he was speaking to, and why he was preaching as he did. Perhaps the folks needed to know it isn't their works that save them (even though works may be a necessary element of salvation), but rather it is Jesus who is the redeemer, and lacking faith in Christ is not overcome by any works by/of themselves. This biblical teaching of unmerited forgiveness makes the primary need for a second effort (Mormonism) a non issue. DAVEH: Yet some of the Primitive Christians thought a second effort was necessary, as is evidenced by 1Cor 15:29. Instead of criticizing them for practicing baptism for the dead, Paul used their works for the dead as an example of an important doctrine.the resurrection. God did not get it wrong the first time. He did not misunderstand the wickedness of those whom he intended to save. He is not out of control when it comes to the history of man's walk with Him. As I see it, the claim that God failed to get it right with the New Covenant is amazing. If not, why not. DAVEH: Are you part of that New Covenant, John? If sowhat is it that you have covenanted to do? John -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
In a message dated 3/28/2004 9:02:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Correct me if I am wrong, but to me you seem to insist he is a standpat, gagged and hogtied god who can do nothing new. Under the new covenant of grace, He (God) does not need to be anything but steadfast and consistent. It is grace verses works, whether Mormon, Baptist, Catholic or whatever. The church was NEVER right on its own terms. It needed grace for the same reasons individual members have that need and it needed grace from day one. That is the revelation -- in your KJV bible and in ours. Sorry for the interruption and Perry can take care of himself, I know. I just had to do it. By the way, your silence on this brother question means to me that there is more to it for you, Blaine, than simply being a Christian. John John
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Academics
John, I love romantic stories with a happy ending. J Had one myself after a 25 year bad deal. Fortunately I was able to put up with it until my boys were educated and married. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] I remarried 3 years ago -- one of the most spiritual gals I have ever met. Great to meet you and the others. Grace John
Re: [TruthTalk] Tough being a Christian
Terry Clifton wrote: tc: Dave, I welcome your thoughts. Though I do not share your beliefs, I admire the way you are able to discuss them without demeaning the person with whom yor are conversing. I do not know if you are doing this based on training or in love, but you set a far better example than most of us. === Dave: In short..you are right, Judy. What I hear/see in TT does not compel me to want to change from what I have. In fact, when some tell me they want to wave my underwear in public, I want to run the other direction. But something else in me wants to find out why those underwear wavers want to act that way, which is so contrary to what I perceive Jesus would do...which is why I've enjoyed some of my discussions with the street preachers. I just want to find out why that kind of thinking makes them tick. I suppose that also explains why I enjoy TT so much. Though it is so contradictory to the nature of the way I've been taught, I'm extremely curious as to why you folks seems so comfortable with the religion you practice that produces such interesting fruits I don't know if that makes sense to any of you. And, I hope I'm not offending anybody by sharing my thoughts. Delete it if you don't want me butting in..or.Ponder it as an outsider's observation. = I am not sure you can open your mouth without offending someone, but please continue. Outside observations can be valuable to those who want to learn. You might, if you really want to avoid conflict to some extent, stop using the word "protestant". DAVEH: ??? Why, Terry? Why would that offend you? I don't recall if you told us about your affiliation with any particular denomination. >From your below comment, am I to understand you have not associated with any Protestant groups? I am not certain what you would replace it with, but that word does not describe today's Christian. DAVEH: Now you are really confusing me. I thought most TTers were Protestant in some sense. If I were to poll most professed Christians I meet on the street, I would think they predominantly would claim some mainline denominational affiliation that would be related to Protestantism. (Excepting of course, LDS, RCC, JW, &DA, etc.) Do you not consider the Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, CofC, Pentecostals (and their variants), Presbyterians, etc to be Protestants? Religion is another bummer. All religions all seem to have one thing in common, DAVEH: $$$? ;-) that being that good works will get you salvation. DAVEH: Most of the Protestants I've talked to condemn my religion for allegedly believing such. I don't recall any of them claiming their religion claimed likewise. I have faith in my Savior to accomplish that. My good works, according to the Bible, have all the value of a filthy rag. No religion for me. DAVEH: Sounds like you might have had a bad experience, Terry. Care to share it with us? Or.have you always believed that way? Terry -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
RE: [TruthTalk] POLYANYI
ROFL!!! That’s “priceless”. J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Blaine Borrowman Izzy, Yes, I am aware of your perceptions, have been for a long time--how could I miss it? LOL But you are wrong. The big surprise was all mine, though. I never figured you were receiving messages from the "imitator," as you call him, just didn't think you received anything at all. (:>)
RE: [TruthTalk] astrology
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Blaine Borrowman Izzie, Yes, Astology is definitely an occult oriented skill, or art. Blaine—Aren’t mormons aware that the occult of of satan? Christians are forbidden to dabble in the occult. What is your concept here? Since Karl Malone was the mainstay of the Utah Jazz NBA team, Blacks seem to have been more easily accepted in Utah. The NBA has done a lot for Blacks all over the USA, too, I think, to raise their status and standing in communities. The NBA is not all bad--as is the case with almost anything we usually think of as being bad or evil. As I recall, one of the concepts I learned in Sociology classes was that the more minorities interact with the majority population, the more biases and predjudices disappear. The NBA does seem to give Blacks more exposure. God, who loves us all, Black or White, works in mysterious ways his wonders to perform, I guess you could say. My husband is the basketball lover—I admit I just don’t get it. Blaine, does it bother you that at first the mormon doctrine said that blacks could not be saved, and now it says the opposite? Since God never changes His mind, doesn’t that make you doubt the authenticity of mormon doctrine? Just wondering. You should come to Salt Lake City for a visit sometime, and I would be happy to show you around the city, which by the way is only abput 1/2 Mormon. I live North of Salt Lake City, in West Point, a small city near Ogden and Hill AFB. But Salt Lake is just 30 minutes away. Blaine Thanks for the kind invite, Blaine. I’m sure the city is lovely. But I didn’t dare tread into the tour of the new mormon temple here in St. Louis when it was first built. I don’t go where I don’t think the Holy Spirit is. I would never visit a Hindu or Buddhist temple, either. Izzy - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 1:48 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] astrology Blaine, I believe that astrology is of the occult. Do you? I do think you have a valid point, however, that God made the heavenlies, and He can use them to give signs, such as the Zodiac formations. Pastor James Kennedy did a big series on that subject (and took severe criticism from the Church of the Rigid and Uptight Believers for it, too.) How does the astrology that you believe in differ from the Chinese horoscope? How can both of you be right? Isn’t it bad enough to be a mormon, AND an astrologist? J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Blaine Borrowman Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 12:11 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] astrology Blaine: The stars fortell, but do not compel. God Knows us, and what choices we will make, but we need to make them nevertheless, and thus prove all things, in order that God may alone be glorified. There is no evil in reading the stars, but only evil in thinking they compel us. We are indeed free by way of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the sure foundation. Few if any men nowadays can accurately read the stars well enough to be certain what is written there. Inspiration is needed, and if that fails, then we are left unto ourselves. The Magi were not just astrologers, but wise and holy men of God, who listened to the promptings of the spirit, which is the only real key to reading the stars. ALL things testify of Christ--even the stars. Take Venus, the bright and morning star at times, but the evening star at other times. Sometimes it is neither, as it cannot be seen because it has moved behind the sun. It signifies the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, as it moves from being the evening star, to being unseen, to being "born again" as the morning star. As Jesus said, "I am the offspring of David and the bright and morning star." (Rev 22:16 Also, look up some evening and see the Big Dipper--it has seven stars in it, and they all point to the fixed star, called the North Star. As the earth turns on its axis, the Big Dipper appears to revolve around the North Star, which itself never appears to move. The seven stars signify the seven churches of Asia (Revelation, chapter 1), or, in other words, the Church! The North Star, which never moves, signifies Jesus Christ. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 7:50 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] astrology From: "Blaine Borrowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hmmm, can you give me your exact time and place of birth? I can't predict much without being able to place your sun, moon and planets in houses with reference to your rising sign. You were born with the Sun in Saggitarius, Moon in Taurus, Mercury and Venus in Capricornus, Mars in Aquarius
Re: [TruthTalk] POLYANYI
Blaine: Oh yes, I must apologize for not answering your questions, John. Thanks for the reminder. Well, of course we are brothers!! We are all children of God, are we not? I see no way to consider you as anything but a brother who worships Jesus Christ. Your beliefs may not always coincide with mine, but obviously we both basically are true belivers, are we not? I can see you are a true believer, and I deem myself to be the same. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] POLYANYI In a message dated 3/28/2004 7:17:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Blaine Borrowman) Blaine. Was it Lance who was saying that your Christ is different from my Christ? I believe you said that you believed in Christ so that made you a Christian and then you asked for some impute. I am saying, if your Christ is the same God I serve, are the two of us brothers? I am not trying to challenge you. Rather, I am curious. Or is there more to your sense of brotherhood than meets the eye? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
Both John and Perry’s experience sound a lot like what I consider my “salvation’ moment. Did you both consider yourselves to be “saved” prior to this filling experience? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 6:26 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you. In a message dated 3/28/2004 2:49:15 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anyway, it certainly was an faith confirming and affirming experience. Amazing and your conclusions or response was very similar to mine. It does not sound as if either of us was looking for this experience. It just happened. For me, however, I immediately identified it with "filling" because it was such a perfect word to describe where I was at the time -- I was was just full. Anyway, thanks for the reply. John
RE: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
John, I can understand your reasoning below. But may I have permission to insert two comments? 1) Jews can certainly remain Jews as believers in Messiah Yeshua. Jesus was and still is the Jewish Messiah. Many Jews today can and do know Jesus as Lord. We might call them “Christians”, but they still consider themselves to be Jews. (Like Paul himself.) 2) However, I think mormons have a simple misunderstanding of who Jesus is. They have been taught that He is the brother of satan, one of many gods, and that mormons themselves are morphing into gods just like Jesus did, etc. They cannot be followers of the real Jesus because they have been given the wrong “Jesus” to follow; not because they don’t have all the “right” doctrines on non-critical issues. (But the Lord can continue draw truly seeking hearts which, hopefully Blaine has.) Do you think I’m all wet? J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 4:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious In a message dated 3/28/2004 2:17:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: tell me your reasoning i don't know if my bias and my reasoning can be separaed but, as I used to say in book sales, "here goes nothing." I believe the biblical message teaches clearly that you, Blaine, are saved by faith apart from being right. Your faith in Christ and the church you are aligned with are two different things to me. To the others on this list, Bill, Izzy, and all, I am open to discussion on this. Back to Blaine. Understand that I am not proclaiming you a part of the saved. That's not my job. in this case. If you are saying that we are brothers in Christ, I can accept that. You will understand, of course, that accepting you and accepting Mormon teaching are two different things. But I accept Catholics without accepting the Roman Church. Paul accepted those who continued to follow Judaism and Christ. Are you and I brothers? John
Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
Blaine: Perry, thank you for always being willing to lower the ladder for me, that I might climb up where you presume to be.If nothing else, your heart is in the right place. We Mormons do have some doctrines that are foreign to your old system of thought, but they came from God.If you cannot accept Jesus as being a dynamic, caring, intervening God, fully capable of taking the reins and directing his church directly and through his chosen prophets, then I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. Correct me if I am wrong, but to me you seem to insist he is a standpat, gagged and hogtied god who can do nothing new. Sorry, but I cannot accept that. Take care, old buddy, and keep in touch, as we never know when the right teachable moments in our lives will be. (:>) - Original Message - From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious > >Blaine wrote: So I must be a Christian. If you still don't believe this, > >please tell me your reasoning--but withold your biases, as I am not > >interested in noisy nonsense or insulting word-offal. > > Blaine, Blaine, Blaine. I have been over this several times on TT. Since you > worship a DIFFERENT Jesus and a DIFFERENT God than the Jesus and God of the > Bible, then you are not a Christian. I have given a fairly involved > explanation in posts a few months back of how I know that the LDS God and > Jesus are not the Biblical God and Jesus. > > Perry > > > >From: "Blaine Borrowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious > >Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:16:03 -0700 > > > >Blaine: I keep wondering, when people say I am not a Christian because I > >am a Mormon, if they even know what they are saying. It seems to me they > >haven't really thought anything through, they are just parroting what they > >have heard someone say. > >Am I a Muslim? Nope, I do not worship Mohammed, or believe Mohammed was a > >prophet. Am I a Jew? Nope, I believe the Messiah arrived as Jesus Christ. > > Am I an Atheist? Nope, I believe in God. > >Do I believe in and worship Jesus Christ? Yup.- Original Message > >- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 9:13 AM > > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious > > > > > > In a message dated 3/27/2004 5:04:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > > > > > jt: Where would you come up with an idea like that? You can not be > >Mormon/Christian > > any more than you can be Jew/Christian. > > > > > > > > Regarding the Jew/Christian thing: read Acts 21. More than that -- > >virtually all of Paul's problems in the church was caused by a brand of > >legalism called Judaism. > > Alexander the copper smith was probably a Jew/Christian. I personally > >believe that Alexander was yhe reason Paul was prosecuted unto death > >(Alexander has cause me much harm). Evidence of the Jewish church is > >abundant in both Romans and Hebrews. It is just very short sighted to NOT > >see the Jewish/Christian church in the biblical message. It is actually > >everywhere. > > > > > > Anyway -- I have to clean the pool. It is a great day here in > >Fresno. > > > > John Smithson > > _ > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn > > -- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
Amen, Terry. We seek the Giver, and are grateful for whatever gifts He deems to give. J Nobody gets them all. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 4:02 PM I wouldn't worry about the tongues thing. Paul said it was the least important of all the gifts. Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] M Scott Peck a Christian LOL
Perry, I am so glad to hear that M. Scott Peck was of some assistance to you when you were a seeker. Yours is a perfect example of what Bill and I were trying to discuss before we were interrupted: that all Truth is of God, and therefore beneficial to those who are willing to hear it. The Lord has not just given all truth to Christians, or to Christians who have the “right” doctrine, or Christians who have the “right” doctrine plus perfect lives. To ignore truth from non-Christians is to me a lack of faith in God’s Omnipotence. He is Big enough to speak through a donkey, and certainly through any human with an open, inquisitive mind. That’s what astounded me by Peck’s book “The Road Less Traveled”. He wasn’t even a Believer, yet it was so full of amazing common sense and practical wisdom that anyone could understand. Things like “Love is hard work.” Don’t think you “love” someone if you aren’t willing to do the work that it requires, like spending time with them, etc. What was it that spoke to you at the time? My favorite book, by far, of Peck’s is “The People of the Lie”. Did you read that one? In it he says that he believes that psychiatry should have a diagnosis of “evil”, and he spends the book describing his encounters with “evil” people who were his patients, and his experiences with attending actual exorcisms. His explanation of how to diagnose and comprehend the behavior of evil people was EXTREMELY helpful to my husband and me when we were dealing with a nightmare situation of slander against him. It helped us gain perspective when we were reeling with the emotions one goes through at a time like that. And it has helped us strive for forgiveness by understanding that “they know not what they do” when evil people “project” their own self-hatred onto their victims. Whether Peck is a Christian today is only God’s decision; who of us can look inside another’s heart? He is definitely under RCC persuasion, and is influenced by a whole lot of his past life (aren’t we all?). He also still clings to non-Biblical beliefs in a lot of areas. But he claims to have had a definite conversion from paganism to a love of Jesus Christ, and I accept his statement at face value. One doesn’t grow to perfection in a day—it is a process that goes beyond our lives on this earth, in fact. However, I notice that the Peck books that we have in our library do not sit in the “Christian” section, but in the philosophy section. He is no theologian. My personal philosophy is that where you are on the spiritual spectrum is not nearly as important as which direction you are heading. Are you heading towards Jesus, or towards darkness? The ones who think they have “arrived” are often the most dark of all. You can read about them in “The People of the Lie”. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry Locke Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 3:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] M Scott Peck a Christian LOL TT'rs, Could it be possible that Scott Peck and his writings have a purpose in the world outside of bringing people to Christ? In the early 80's I was reading Peck's "The Road Less Traveled". It was instrumental in my growth as an individual, and helped to place me on a path of peace, tolerance, understanding, and others awareness. At that time I was not a Christian, but a seeker. 10 years later I became a Christian and, if it was not for the changes made in my life that I underwent in the early 80's, at least in part assisted by Scott peck's book, I might not have ever found Christ (or, maybe I would not have ever let Him find me!) Would I have sought Christ without Scott peck's help? Would I have let Him seek me without Scott Peck's help? Only God truly knows. But, I do know that Peck's book was instrumental in turning me from an inward position, focused on self, to an outward position, focused on others. Without this turn, I may never have been able to recognize the movement of the Spirit within me. Perry
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Academics
In a message dated 3/28/2004 8:00:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There are too many gentle folks here, such as yourself, that I would miss otherwise. Yes, there are and, of course, I think your decision is the best. There is much to learn from people who are willing to let you think, make wrong decisions, sometimes correct them, and grow. There is much to learn in a situation in which you can put something out there without getting the old and tired "oh, another false prophet" salute. Honest people are no more correct in their thinking than anyone else. Sometimes I disagree simply because I honestly cannot see the opposing point. Anyway, being in this particular group has help in a number of ways. Your impute is included in that compliment. James graduated from the teaching hospital in San Fran. I am not up on some of the lingo. I and their mom was married for 23 years. The boys were 11 and 9. I had quit preaching and was just starting in the construction trade. Tough times. I coached and they wrestled. One the most macho homes in America. Really. We were tough guys. Lots of cussing and lots of fights. The boys went to Davis, to school. When they came back in the summer of 97, I had rededicated my life and was involved in a two year immersion into Christ thing. Their first question was, "who are you and what have you done with our real Dad?" Because both boys respect me, we are best friends, they have come to Christ. They saw in me a real and dynamic change. And that opened the door to Christ as they understand Him. I remarried 3 years ago -- one of the most spiritual gals I have ever met. Great to meet you and the others. Grace John
Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
- Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 3:28 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious Well Blaine: According to scripture on the last day we are going to be judged according to the Words Jesus spoke. These are not the same Words your BofM teaches Blaine: Actually there is little in the BoM itself that is contrary to the gospels in the Bible. Most of the differences that seem foreign to you come from later revelations, now contained in the Book called The Doctrine and Covenants. It contains much on how Christ's church is to be organized and conducted in these latter days, in preparation for His second coming in glory, as well as doctriines that clarify but do not really add to the gospel as delivered to the saints of the early church. I am telling you the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God. OK? So how will you get around that? Jesus said the gate is strait and the way is narrow and only a few are going to find it. Blaine: The question is, who are the ones who will be the "few?" I have faith God is a fair and equitable god. He will include all who earnestly seek to keep his commandments, and in doing so prove their friendship to him. We are all his children--do you believe that? I know you've heard all this before but Mormonism adds to God's Truth making it something other than the faith ONCE delivered to the saints. Some on this list who profess to be believers may encourage you in this deception... they are not the ones who really care for your soul. Blaine: I am always glad to hear someone cares for my soul. Thank you Judy From: "Blaine Borrowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Blaine: I keep wondering, when people say I am not a Christian because I am a Mormon, if they even know what they are saying. It seems to me they haven't really thought anything through, they are just parroting what they have heard someone say. Am I a Muslim? Nope, I do not worship Mohammed, or believe Mohammed was a prophet. Am I a Jew? Nope, I believe the Messiah arrived as Jesus Christ. Am I an Atheist? Nope, I believe in God. Do I believe in and worship Jesus Christ? Yup. So I must be a Christian. If you still don't believe this, please tell me your reasoning --but withold your biases, as I am not interested in noisy nonsense or insulting word-offal. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 3/27/2004 5:04:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: Where would you come up with an idea like that? You can not be Mormon/Christian any more than you can be Jew/Christian. Regarding the Jew/Christian thing: read Acts 21. More than that -- virtually all of Paul's problems in the church was caused by a brand of legalism called Judaism. Alexander the copper smith was probably a Jew/Christian. I personally believe that Alexander was yhe reason Paul was prosecuted unto death (Alexander has cause me much harm). Evidence of the Jewish church is abundant in both Romans and Hebrews. It is just very short sighted to NOT see the Jewish/Christian church in the biblical message. It is actually everywhere. Anyway -- I have to clean the pool. It is a great day here in Fresno. John Smithson
Re: [TruthTalk] POLYANYI
In a message dated 3/28/2004 7:17:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Blaine Borrowman) Blaine. Was it Lance who was saying that your Christ is different from my Christ? I believe you said that you believed in Christ so that made you a Christian and then you asked for some impute. I am saying, if your Christ is the same God I serve, are the two of us brothers? I am not trying to challenge you. Rather, I am curious. Or is there more to your sense of brotherhood than meets the eye? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Academics
John, So your son will be doing his residency at Fresno? Is that U of Cal also? He sure must enjoy that adrenalin rush, with his love for the E.R. and research on a mountain. It must be the wrestling background. Sorry to hear about the divorce; the boys must have been young then. I know how tough that is. Your son has a heart for people, which is what draws him into medicine in the first place. The experiences of the E.R. are much like battlefield experiences, and can be just as traumatic. Hopefully he will always keep that tender heart, but will adjust to the fact that the Lord has foreordained the number of days a person lives, regardless of whatever heroics a doctor or nurse employs. You can only do what you can do; the rest is up to Him. My husband does not have the heartbreaking experience of losing many patients now that he is settled into ophthalmology. J He just spends his days, “Stamping out glaucoma.” My husband loves Residents, and he is his Dept. Residency Director at St. Louis University, in addition to his regular duties. He is a big believer in the Attendings mentoring the Residents and would, of course, always be available to speak with your son about anything that might be helpful, via email or phone. Thanks for the kind words of encouragement. I don’t like having to set boundaries with anyone, especially other Believers, but Tough Love is never fun. (A good book on the subject is “Boundaries” by Drs. Cloud and Townsend.) Reconciliation is always a huge relief and joy; but cannot be done without establishing mutual respect first. I look forward to such a day. In the meantime, I care enough about my own peace to guard it from unnecessary violation. Therefore I will reluctantly employ the delete button as you advise. There are too many gentle folks here, such as yourself, that I would miss otherwise. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 2:10 PM My son is James Smithson. James has just finished his academic requirements at S.F. and is taking nine months off to do this research before his fours years of residency. He likes the ER in Fresno - it is a little hairy and fast paste. He is not fully settled on trauma. Maybe he should join this list if he wants some real experience in trauma. Anyway, he is a wonderful kid one of three brothers; all were state wrestling champions. I have coached for years. There mom and I divorced in 1987 and I raised James and his younger brother. I worry sometimes about being so tender hearted -- him not me. He comes home in tears very often, especially when he loses a patient. Impute from your husband would not hurt. Hang in there in this list. I appreciate your comments and sense of maturity. With judyt -- just delete. There are two individuals from another list that are very much outside the will of God -- more than any on this list. They continue to send me postings -- I have pretty much warn out the delete button on them. Grace to you John
Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
In a message dated 3/28/2004 7:22:12 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Marlin, I pray that the Lord will supply you with whatever your family needs to record your music if that is your desire. Marlin, my youngest son, Russ, has been into Chrsitian music, band amd all, for several years, now. He does a lot of recording at home with equipment he has on his computer. I know it sounds not to professional, but his CD's come out great -- just as good as the CD he and his band paid $22,000 to record. Maybe you and Russ could email or phone chat about this. Let me know. John Smithson
RE: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
Marlin, I pray that the Lord will supply you with whatever your family needs to record your music if that is your desire. My husband says there are recording companies that are less expensive than purchasing your own equipment, but I’m sure you know more about that than we do. Your children are blessed to have such loving parents. You will be richly rewarded by the Lord for your faithfulness to Him and your family. Your life sounds like a real living sacrifice to Him. A fragrant offering. No wonder he put you in the flower business. J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlin Halverson Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 11:14 AM Of concern to me is conducting business in a way that pleases God and develops character and training in my home-schooled children. Proverbs 22:6 says "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." This is my greatest God-ordained responsibility as a parent. It is not a job to pawn off on a "church." I believe that training a child "in the way that HE should go" takes into account individual aptitudes and abilities and interests, and matching these to opportunities that we can do our best to provide. I believe that training a child "in the way that he SHOULD go" takes into account the commandments of God which we will keep if we love Him. One way to appreciate God in return for His many blessings and benefits, resulting from our obedience and His grace, is to praise Him with songs. Musically, we are not what one calls "professionals." That is not our aim, so much as it is to edify one another and to praise God. There are CD recorders available now, but they are expensive. We hope to acquire one some day. The CDs themselves are cheap. --Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] POLYANYI
Izzy, Yes, I am aware of your perceptions, have been for a long time--how could I miss it? LOL But you are wrong. The big surprise was all mine, though. I never figured you were receiving messages from the "imitator," as you call him, just didn't think you received anything at all. (:>) I should have looked at my own scriptures, which tell me that ALL men are inspired by the Holy Spirit from time to time. Hey, I am just like you, believe me!! There have been times when these "whisperings" have saved my job, or I earned needed extra money. I was even prompted by the spirit to take a piece of a jigsaw puzzle to a service station that was offering a free lawn mower if you could finish out the puzzle. The piece I had fit. I got the lawnmower--just in the nick of time, because my landlord was about to kick me out of my house for not taking care of the lawn. Blaine - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 1:50 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] POLYANYI Because I dont think the same voice speaks to you that speaks to me. Theres the voice of the Holy Spirit, and theres the voice of the Imitator. Guess you know who I think speaks to mormons. Iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Blaine BorrowmanSent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 12:15 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] POLYANYI Why scary? B - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 8:58 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] POLYANYI Very scary, Blaine. Iz Blaine: This is very interesting Izzy. I have had similar experiences. I thought Mormons were the only ones who did this. LOL
Re: [TruthTalk] astrology
Izzie, Yes, Astology is definitely an occult oriented skill, or art. It is not yet a science, but does require quite a bit of math and conceptual understanding to get much out of. I haven't figured out what the relationship between Chinese Astrolgy and Babylonian Astrology is, but both seem to have some validity. (:>) I would guess that being both a Mormon and an astrologer on TT is similar to being both a Catholic and a Black in Salt Lake City, at least prior to when the brethren received the revelation to allow Blacks to hold the Holy Priesthood. (:>) Since Karl Malone was the mainstay of the Utah Jazz NBA team, Blacks seem to have been more easily accepted in Utah. The NBA has done a lot for Blacks all over the USA, too, I think, to raise their status and standing in communities. The NBA is not all bad--as is the case with almost anything we usually think of as being bad or evil. As I recall, one of the concepts I learned in Sociology classes was that the more minorities interact with the majority population, the more biases and predjudices disappear. The NBA does seem to give Blacks more exposure. God, who loves us all, Black or White, works in mysterious ways his wonders to perform, I guess you could say. You should come to Salt Lake City for a visit sometime, and I would be happy to show you around the city, which by the way is only abput 1/2 Mormon. I live North of Salt Lake City, in West Point, a small city near Ogden and Hill AFB. But Salt Lake is just 30 minutes away. Blaine - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 1:48 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] astrology Blaine, I believe that astrology is of the occult. Do you? I do think you have a valid point, however, that God made the heavenlies, and He can use them to give signs, such as the Zodiac formations. Pastor James Kennedy did a big series on that subject (and took severe criticism from the Church of the Rigid and Uptight Believers for it, too.) How does the astrology that you believe in differ from the Chinese horoscope? How can both of you be right? Isnt it bad enough to be a mormon, AND an astrologist? J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Blaine BorrowmanSent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 12:11 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] astrology Blaine: The stars fortell, but do not compel. God Knows us, and what choices we will make, but we need to make them nevertheless, and thus prove all things, in order that God may alone be glorified. There is no evil in reading the stars, but only evil in thinking they compel us. We are indeed free by way of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the sure foundation. Few if any men nowadays can accurately read the stars well enough to be certain what is written there. Inspiration is needed, and if that fails, then we are left unto ourselves. The Magi were not just astrologers, but wise and holy men of God, who listened to the promptings of the spirit, which is the only real key to reading the stars. ALL things testify of Christ--even the stars. Take Venus, the bright and morning star at times, but the evening star at other times. Sometimes it is neither, as it cannot be seen because it has moved behind the sun. It signifies the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, as it moves from being the evening star, to being unseen, to being "born again" as the morning star. As Jesus said, "I am the offspring of David and the bright and morning star." (Rev 22:16 Also, look up some evening and see the Big Dipper--it has seven stars in it, and they all point to the fixed star, called the North Star. As the earth turns on its axis, the Big Dipper appears to revolve around the North Star, which itself never appears to move. The seven stars signify the seven churches of Asia (Revelation, chapter 1), or, in other words, the Church! The North Star, which never moves, signifies Jesus Christ. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 7:50 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] astrology From: "Blaine Borrowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hmmm, can you give me your exact time and place of birth? I can't predict much without being able to place your sun, moon and planets in houses with reference to your rising sign. You were born with the Sun in Saggitarius, Moon in Taurus, Mercury and Venus in Capricornus, Mars in Aquarius, Jupiter in Pices, and Saturn in Libra. You might want to consult astrology books on those plac
Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
No, Judy, I am not calling you a liar. And I am not even doubting that you did write Izzy. You are right: Izzy is offended, and I sense that she is angry. Why continue to provoke her? For I am also observing that you have kept with your offensive ways toward her, even after your claim to have written to her personally. I may only imagine what your private correspondence said, but I can observe with my own eyes what you continue to do on TT. Judy, it is time to take the words of your brothers and sister here on TT and recognize the error of your ways. Respectfully, Bill Taylor - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious Bill, I percieve that you are another one who does not listen. You have judged me already as offensive, proud, and stubborn, causing hurt to an innocent party. I have already written to Izzy with no response so have done all that I can do. Are you calling me a liar on top of your other adjectives. This is not my fight. Izzy is the offended, angry one so talk to Izzy. From: "Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Bill writes > Judy, sometimes we are commanded to get involved in quarrels that may not concern us personally but do concern us corporately as the body of Christ (Matthew 18). Perhaps John is getting involved here because you are sinning, because you are offensive, because you are too proud to recognize either, and because your refusal to repent is still hurting your sister. Take the words of your brothers and sister here on TT and recognize the error of your ways. Bill Taylor John writes > I don't mind the discussion with you, but Izzy does. the scriptures teach that we are not to "seek our own." Love does not seek its own way or will. Izzy does have a delete button. And you have instruction from God on how to show respect to others. Why not practice what you preach instead of insisting on your "rights" as a member of a public list. jt writes > Then John, let Izzy use her delete button just like I use mine. Why are you taking up an offense for her? Do you have instruction from God to jump into the middle of this. I think there is a Proverb about ppl who get into quarrels that don't concern them. Why are you doing this? - From: Judy Taylor From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is a public list and you are choosing to be here john: Why do you communicate with Izzy? jt: Why do you want to keep stirring this John? Do you actually think you are accomplishing some good addressing your thoughts to someone who is not listening to you? jt: I don't address my thoughts to Izzy normally. I did write her off list but she ignored that and this will most likely make things worse. Why can't we address issues and leave the personal stuff alone. I don't mind the discussion with you, but Izzy does. the scriptures teach that we are not to "seek our own." Love does not seek its own way or will. Izzy does have a delete button. jt: Then John, let Izzy use her delete button just like I use mine. Why are you taking up an offense for her? And you have instruction from God on how to show respect to others. Why not practice what you preach instead of insisting on your "rights" as a member of a public list. jt: Do you have instruction from God to jump into the middle of this. I think there is a Proverb about ppl who get into quarrels that don't concern them. Why are you doing this?
Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
I Last I read it was the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin. An amazing display of hypocrisy. Words coming from someone who (a) interferes in every thread on this list and (b) is so busy doing the Holy Spirit's work that she scarcely has time to think.
Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
In a message dated 3/28/2004 2:49:15 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anyway, it certainly was an faith confirming and affirming experience. Amazing and your conclusions or response was very similar to mine. It does not sound as if either of us was looking for this experience. It just happened. For me, however, I immediately identified it with "filling" because it was such a perfect word to describe where I was at the time -- I was was just full. Anyway, thanks for the reply. John
Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
Blaine wrote: So I must be a Christian. If you still don't believe this, please tell me your reasoning--but withold your biases, as I am not interested in noisy nonsense or insulting word-offal. Blaine, Blaine, Blaine. I have been over this several times on TT. Since you worship a DIFFERENT Jesus and a DIFFERENT God than the Jesus and God of the Bible, then you are not a Christian. I have given a fairly involved explanation in posts a few months back of how I know that the LDS God and Jesus are not the Biblical God and Jesus. Perry From: "Blaine Borrowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:16:03 -0700 Blaine: I keep wondering, when people say I am not a Christian because I am a Mormon, if they even know what they are saying. It seems to me they haven't really thought anything through, they are just parroting what they have heard someone say. Am I a Muslim? Nope, I do not worship Mohammed, or believe Mohammed was a prophet. Am I a Jew? Nope, I believe the Messiah arrived as Jesus Christ. Am I an Atheist? Nope, I believe in God. Do I believe in and worship Jesus Christ? Yup.- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 9:13 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious In a message dated 3/27/2004 5:04:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: Where would you come up with an idea like that? You can not be Mormon/Christian any more than you can be Jew/Christian. Regarding the Jew/Christian thing: read Acts 21. More than that -- virtually all of Paul's problems in the church was caused by a brand of legalism called Judaism. Alexander the copper smith was probably a Jew/Christian. I personally believe that Alexander was yhe reason Paul was prosecuted unto death (Alexander has cause me much harm). Evidence of the Jewish church is abundant in both Romans and Hebrews. It is just very short sighted to NOT see the Jewish/Christian church in the biblical message. It is actually everywhere. Anyway -- I have to clean the pool. It is a great day here in Fresno. John Smithson _ All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
Bill, shouldn't you be letting God be God in the lives of people? Last I read it was the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin. From: "Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> When do unrepentant sinners ever request counseling? They would be unrepentant sinners if they were seeking counsel. From: Judy Taylor Kevin isn't the one who dragged this out of the woodpile - it was one of 'in your words' your paranoid friends Bill trying to counsel where counselling had not been requested. jt From: "Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kevin, maybe sometimes its better to stay out of other people's business, especially if all you are doing in it is making matters worse. Even the paranoid (like me, and John, and Izzy, and DaveH, and Blaine, and Lance, and DavidM, and whoever else you don't like) can have some true enemies. Bill Taylor From: Kevin Deegan Well I guess Jesus should rewrite Mark 16 Todays 21 first century version: Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to those that want to hear it[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/28/2004 2:48:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is a public list and you are choosing to be hereWhy do you communicate with Izzy? Do you actually think you are accomplishing some good addressing your thoughts to someone who is not listening to you? I don't mind the discussion with you, but Izzy does. the scriptures teach that we are not to "seek our own." Love does not seek its own way or will. Izzy does have a delete button. And you have instruction from God on how to show respect to others. Why not practice what you preach instead of insisting on your "rights" as a member of a public list. John Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
When do unrepentant sinners ever request counseling? They would be unrepentant sinners if they were seeking counsel. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 3:19 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious Kevin isn't the one who dragged this out of the woodpile - it was one of 'in your words' your paranoid friends Bill trying to counsel where counselling had not been requested. jt From: "Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kevin, maybe sometimes its better to stay out of other people's business, especially if all you are doing in it is making matters worse. Even the paranoid (like me, and John, and Izzy, and DaveH, and Blaine, and Lance, and DavidM, and whoever else you don't like) can have some true enemies. Bill Taylor From: Kevin Deegan Well I guess Jesus should rewrite Mark 16 Todays 21 first century version: Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to those that want to hear it[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/28/2004 2:48:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is a public list and you are choosing to be hereWhy do you communicate with Izzy? Do you actually think you are accomplishing some good addressing your thoughts to someone who is not listening to you? I don't mind the discussion with you, but Izzy does. the scriptures teach that we are not to "seek our own." Love does not seek its own way or will. Izzy does have a delete button. And you have instruction from God on how to show respect to others. Why not practice what you preach instead of insisting on your "rights" as a member of a public list. John Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
Re: [TruthTalk] M Scott Peck a Christian LOL
Good stuff, Perry. I'm sure the accuser/s will answer your questions. - Original Message - From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 2:28 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] M Scott Peck a Christian LOL > TT'rs, > >Could it be possible that Scott Peck and his writings have a purpose in > the world outside of bringing people to Christ? > >In the early 80's I was reading Peck's "The Road Less Traveled". It was > instrumental in my growth as an individual, and helped to place me on a path > of peace, tolerance, understanding, and others awareness. At that time I was > not a Christian, but a seeker. > >10 years later I became a Christian and, if it was not for the changes > made in my life that I underwent in the early 80's, at least in part > assisted by Scott peck's book, I might not have ever found Christ (or, maybe > I would not have ever let Him find me!) > >Would I have sought Christ without Scott peck's help? Would I have let > Him seek me without Scott Peck's help? Only God truly knows. But, I do know > that Peck's book was instrumental in turning me from an inward position, > focused on self, to an outward position, focused on others. Without this > turn, I may never have been able to recognize the movement of the Spirit > within me. > > Perry > > >From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: [TruthTalk] M Scott Peck a Christian LOL > >Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:49:18 -0500 > > > >Now how could anyone in their right mind take what this man writes > >seriously? He is obviously confused and most definitely does not know > >the Lord. > > > >Claims to have been a Christian for 13yrs - with a nun as spiritual > >adviser? > >Says he was accosted by an evil spirit but identifies it as a "good evil > >spirit" > >Yeah right! "Hath God said?" This guy could sell snow cones in Alaska... > >reminds me of witches who claim there is black magic and white magic. > > > >"A doubleminded man is unstable in all his ways [] let not that man > >think > >that he shall receive anything of the Lord" Peck has no idea what sin is > >or > >what Christianity is for that matter so what spiritual insight of his > >could be > >ov value? It's all from the wrong kingdom. > > > >From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but > >inwardly they are ravening wolves," (Matthew 7:15). > >The following is a interview with M Scott Peck: > >"Door: It is interesting that you describe your writing as a calling. Is > >this a calling from God? > >"Peck: I hesitate using the word `God' in that simplistic kind of way. My > >books are not `channeled' materials > >"Door: There are a number of writers and others who are convinced that > >you are part of the New Age Movement. > >"Peck: Really? Well, we can come back to that subject if you'd like > >My spiritual director, who is a nun, says that God never calls you to do > >something that doesn't feel right in your heart. Jesus went to the cross, > >which wasn't something He felt like doing, but the cross felt much better > >than the only alternative which was to retire on His pension plan > >"Door: When we interviewed you last, you had become a Christian three > >years previously. Now that it has been 10 years, could you comment on how > >your own personal faith has changed over the decade? > >"Peck: I don't like the term `became a Christian.' ...I hope to God that > >I'm going to continue to be converted until I die and perhaps well after > >that, which is what I think purgatory is all about > >"Door: Why do we have this feeling of impending doom? > >"Peck: God knows when I'll ever write about this, so you might as well > >write about it. > >"Door: Uh - thanks. > >"Peck: I have had some dealings with evil spirits, but I have never given > >any thought to possibility of good spirits. One night while I was in the > >midst of my depression, my Dark Night of the Senses, I went to bed. I had > >not fallen asleep and this was not a dream. I was accosted by a spirit. > >"Door: A spirit? > >"Peck: ...Almost as instantly, I asked what kind of spirit this was and I > >immediately knew it was a good spirit rather than a bad spirit. But I > >also knew I could either confront this spirit or shake it off. I wondered > >what kind of good spirit it was. The answer came to me immediately. It > >was a spirit of mirth. > >"Door: A spirit of mirth? > >"Peck: That was when the battle began. Just because this seemed to be a > >spirit of mirth, how did I know for sure? If I let it in - > >"Door: - You mean like a possession or something? > >"Peck: Yes So I gave in to this spirit and I giggled myself to sleep. > >"Door: Since we are talking about the bizarre, we hear a lot of people - > >who act like they know what they're talking about - claiming that you are > >`New Age.' What are your feelings a
Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
John, I share a similar experience, but never considered it "filling". I was away on business and attended an Episopal church next to the building I was doing work in. The service was quite impressive, with the processional and all, but during the singing of several hymns the tears were just streaming down my cheeks. I was recalling the crucifixion of Christ, the great sacrifice that he made on our behalf. I looked around, and no one else seemed to be tearing up, so I felt a bit out of place, wondering what someone might think if they saw me, like maybe I was in crisis and needed some intervention, or something. Anyway, it certainly was an faith confirming and affirming experience. Perry From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you. Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:01:48 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/28/2004 7:04:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hey John: Having been in the same predicament in my early years, I think the term "target" is a vivid and accurate description of your experience. Could you perhaps define this filling that you experienced afterward? It might be that many of us have experienced the same thing but are unable to put a name on it or describe it. I assume that God is the senior partner? Yes, God is the senior partner. As so many of these testimonies go, my filling came unexpectedly. After I left the church service, I got in my little Camaro and started down the drive to the main street some 100 years away. I became so overcome with emotion, that I had to pull over and wait. The biblical word is "filling" that is exactly what it was -- / I was simply full of emotion. / Being macho is or was a big deal to me. Emotions are always resisted. But no more.In fact, I cannot be involved in a song service with any dynamic to it at all without being overcome -- filled . Eph 5:18-19 talks of being filled with the Spirit when we sing and make melody. I believe that tongues is a present time gift, but not for me. Filling, however, is an occurance that is intended for us and happens to more ooften than we know. there were no lights, no warm feeling, no great sense of peace -- you know, all the things you so often hear (and I am not challenging those things). It was like I had been hit with a ton of bricks -- I am driving, I get emotional, I am overcome with those emotions, I pull over and wait -- spending that time talking with God and things in regard to filling have been different ever since (Dec. 1997 -- almost exactly 40 years after my baptism as a 12 year old, Dec. 27, 1957). I was one of those guys who thought I needed tongues. I did everything known to modern man to receive that gift. Lance talks about bias and how it relates to what we believe. Well, since not receiving that gift, I look at some scriptures very differently than I used to. Anyway, I don't want to get too wordy. Does his answer your question? John Yes, it does, and I appreciate your honesty and openness. If it were proper for a Christian to envy, I would envy your ability to get such a filling from a sermon or a song. I guess I am just not built along those lines. Compared to me, Mr. Spock of Star Wars fame would be an emotional person. Normally, I just have to take God's word as truth and let it go at that. There is never an accomanying feeling . If He says I am saved, I accept that as a fact, even though I may not feel anything that validates or enhances the statement. There are a couple of exceptions to the foregoing however. On two occasions I have felt absolutly compelled to go and tell someone about our Lord and attempt to win them to Christ. On both occasions, the individual made Jesus their Savior, and I wanted to jump up and down and praise the Lord for seeing fit to use me as His messenger. That is unusual for me. Both those men are dead now. I look forward to seeing them again some day. I wouldn't worry about the tongues thing. Paul said it was the least important of all the gifts. Thanks again, Terry _ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
Bill, I percieve that you are another one who does not listen. You have judged me already as offensive, proud, and stubborn, causing hurt to an innocent party. I have already written to Izzy with no response so have done all that I can do. Are you calling me a liar on top of your other adjectives. This is not my fight. Izzy is the offended, angry one so talk to Izzy. From: "Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Bill writes > Judy, sometimes we are commanded to get involved in quarrels that may not concern us personally but do concern us corporately as the body of Christ (Matthew 18). Perhaps John is getting involved here because you are sinning, because you are offensive, because you are too proud to recognize either, and because your refusal to repent is still hurting your sister. Take the words of your brothers and sister here on TT and recognize the error of your ways. Bill Taylor John writes > I don't mind the discussion with you, but Izzy does. the scriptures teach that we are not to "seek our own." Love does not seek its own way or will. Izzy does have a delete button. And you have instruction from God on how to show respect to others. Why not practice what you preach instead of insisting on your "rights" as a member of a public list. jt writes > Then John, let Izzy use her delete button just like I use mine. Why are you taking up an offense for her? Do you have instruction from God to jump into the middle of this. I think there is a Proverb about ppl who get into quarrels that don't concern them. Why are you doing this? - From: Judy Taylor From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is a public list and you are choosing to be here john: Why do you communicate with Izzy? jt: Why do you want to keep stirring this John? Do you actually think you are accomplishing some good addressing your thoughts to someone who is not listening to you? jt: I don't address my thoughts to Izzy normally. I did write her off list but she ignored that and this will most likely make things worse. Why can't we address issues and leave the personal stuff alone. I don't mind the discussion with you, but Izzy does. the scriptures teach that we are not to "seek our own." Love does not seek its own way or will. Izzy does have a delete button. jt: Then John, let Izzy use her delete button just like I use mine. Why are you taking up an offense for her? And you have instruction from God on how to show respect to others. Why not practice what you preach instead of insisting on your "rights" as a member of a public list. jt: Do you have instruction from God to jump into the middle of this. I think there is a Proverb about ppl who get into quarrels that don't concern them. Why are you doing this?
Re: [TruthTalk] Party Crashing
This one must be bothering you. I can see why. Bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 2:29 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Party Crashing Bill Taylor I want to praise you both for helping me with my understanding of how to distinguish between men and men, and which it is with whom to contend. Thank you. I'm more sure than ever that I serve the real Jesus. I am glad to be of service, & am glad you have figured it out, stick with the BOOK! 1 Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. You just figured it out? It was in the BOOK all the time! 1 Co Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. Therefore let no man glory in men For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. If I want more wisdom than the ancients I go to the Word! Not some demon possesed philospher or author. Ps 119:I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts."Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin says > I hear a lot of praise for men around TT, Paloney, Peck. At least one of which professes of a spirit possesion. Prov 28:4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them. And Judy praises Kevin and calls him a blessing, and then shares this insight from some other man > "It has escaped the understanding of many Christians that what they believe is more often shaped by the teachings and traditions of religious men than by Scripture. Yet the wisdom of the world is no substitute for God's Word, even if offered from the pulpit or in the Christian media. Jesus warns us in Matthew 24:12 that in the last days the love of many toward Him would grow cold because evil would increase in the world. There is little time to waste in the short span of life granted us by God. We must choose today whom we will serve." I want to praise you both for helping me with my understanding of how to distinguish between men and men, and which it is with whom to contend. Thank you. I'm more sure than ever that I serve the real Jesus. Bill Taylor Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
In a message dated 3/28/2004 2:33:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Take the words of your brothers and sister here on TT and recognize the error of your ways. Yes and amen Thanks Bill, John
Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
In a message dated 3/28/2004 2:17:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: tell me your reasoning i don't know if my bias and my reasoning can be separaed but, as I used to say in book sales, "here goes nothing." I believe the biblical message teaches clearly that you, Blaine, are saved by faith apart from being right. Your faith in Christ and the church you are aligned with are two different things to me. To the others on this list, Bill, Izzy, and all, I am open to discussion on this. Back to Blaine. Understand that I am not proclaiming you a part of the saved. That's not my job. in this case. If you are saying that we are brothers in Christ, I can accept that. You will understand, of course, that accepting you and accepting Mormon teaching are two different things. But I accept Catholics without accepting the Roman Church. Paul accepted those who continued to follow Judaism and Christ. Are you and I brothers? John
Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
John writes > I don't mind the discussion with you, but Izzy does. the scriptures teach that we are not to "seek our own." Love does not seek its own way or will. Izzy does have a delete button. And you have instruction from God on how to show respect to others. Why not practice what you preach instead of insisting on your "rights" as a member of a public list. jt writes > Then John, let Izzy use her delete button just like I use mine. Why are you taking up an offense for her? Do you have instruction from God to jump into the middle of this. I think there is a Proverb about ppl who get into quarrels that don't concern them. Why are you doing this? Bill writes > Judy, sometimes we are commanded to get involved in quarrels that may not concern us personally but do concern us corporately as the body of Christ (Matthew 18). Perhaps John is getting involved here because you are sinning, because you are offensive, because you are too proud to recognize either, and because your refusal to repent is still hurting your sister. Take the words of your brothers and sister here on TT and recognize the error of your ways. Bill Taylor - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 2:12 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is a public list and you are choosing to be here john: Why do you communicate with Izzy? jt: Why do you want to keep stirring this John? Do you actually think you are accomplishing some good addressing your thoughts to someone who is not listening to you? jt: I don't address my thoughts to Izzy normally. I did write her off list but she ignored that and this will most likely make things worse. Why can't we address issues and leave the personal stuff alone. I don't mind the discussion with you, but Izzy does. the scriptures teach that we are not to "seek our own." Love does not seek its own way or will. Izzy does have a delete button. jt: Then John, let Izzy use her delete button just like I use mine. Why are you taking up an offense for her? And you have instruction from God on how to show respect to others. Why not practice what you preach instead of insisting on your "rights" as a member of a public list. jt: Do you have instruction from God to jump into the middle of this. I think there is a Proverb about ppl who get into quarrels that don't concern them. Why are you doing this?
[TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
Well Blaine: According to scripture on the last day we are going to be judged according to the Words Jesus spoke. These are not the same Words your BofM teaches So how will you get around that? Jesus said the gate is strait and the way is narrow and only a few are going to find it. I know you've heard all this before but Mormonism adds to God's Truth making it something other than the faith ONCE delivered to the saints. Some on this list who profess to be believers may encourage you in this deception... they are not the ones who really care for your soul. From: "Blaine Borrowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Blaine: I keep wondering, when people say I am not a Christian because I am a Mormon, if they even know what they are saying. It seems to me they haven't really thought anything through, they are just parroting what they have heard someone say. Am I a Muslim? Nope, I do not worship Mohammed, or believe Mohammed was a prophet. Am I a Jew? Nope, I believe the Messiah arrived as Jesus Christ. Am I an Atheist? Nope, I believe in God. Do I believe in and worship Jesus Christ? Yup. So I must be a Christian. If you still don't believe this, please tell me your reasoning --but withold your biases, as I am not interested in noisy nonsense or insulting word-offal. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 3/27/2004 5:04:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: Where would you come up with an idea like that? You can not be Mormon/Christian any more than you can be Jew/Christian. Regarding the Jew/Christian thing: read Acts 21. More than that -- virtually all of Paul's problems in the church was caused by a brand of legalism called Judaism. Alexander the copper smith was probably a Jew/Christian. I personally believe that Alexander was yhe reason Paul was prosecuted unto death (Alexander has cause me much harm). Evidence of the Jewish church is abundant in both Romans and Hebrews. It is just very short sighted to NOT see the Jewish/Christian church in the biblical message. It is actually everywhere. Anyway -- I have to clean the pool. It is a great day here in Fresno. John Smithson
[TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
Kevin isn't the one who dragged this out of the woodpile - it was one of 'in your words' your paranoid friends Bill trying to counsel where counselling had not been requested. jt From: "Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kevin, maybe sometimes its better to stay out of other people's business, especially if all you are doing in it is making matters worse. Even the paranoid (like me, and John, and Izzy, and DaveH, and Blaine, and Lance, and DavidM, and whoever else you don't like) can have some true enemies. Bill Taylor From: Kevin Deegan Well I guess Jesus should rewrite Mark 16 Todays 21 first century version: Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to those that want to hear it[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/28/2004 2:48:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is a public list and you are choosing to be hereWhy do you communicate with Izzy? Do you actually think you are accomplishing some good addressing your thoughts to someone who is not listening to you? I don't mind the discussion with you, but Izzy does. the scriptures teach that we are not to "seek our own." Love does not seek its own way or will. Izzy does have a delete button. And you have instruction from God on how to show respect to others. Why not practice what you preach instead of insisting on your "rights" as a member of a public list. John Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
Blaine: I keep wondering, when people say I am not a Christian because I am a Mormon, if they even know what they are saying. It seems to me they haven't really thought anything through, they are just parroting what they have heard someone say. Am I a Muslim? Nope, I do not worship Mohammed, or believe Mohammed was a prophet. Am I a Jew? Nope, I believe the Messiah arrived as Jesus Christ. Am I an Atheist? Nope, I believe in God. Do I believe in and worship Jesus Christ? Yup. So I must be a Christian. If you still don't believe this, please tell me your reasoning--but withold your biases, as I am not interested in noisy nonsense or insulting word-offal. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 9:13 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious In a message dated 3/27/2004 5:04:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: Where would you come up with an idea like that? You can not be Mormon/Christian any more than you can be Jew/Christian. Regarding the Jew/Christian thing: read Acts 21. More than that -- virtually all of Paul's problems in the church was caused by a brand of legalism called Judaism. Alexander the copper smith was probably a Jew/Christian. I personally believe that Alexander was yhe reason Paul was prosecuted unto death (Alexander has cause me much harm). Evidence of the Jewish church is abundant in both Romans and Hebrews. It is just very short sighted to NOT see the Jewish/Christian church in the biblical message. It is actually everywhere. Anyway -- I have to clean the pool. It is a great day here in Fresno. John Smithson
Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
In a message dated 3/28/2004 2:02:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: wouldn't worry about the tongues thing. Paul said it was the least important of all the gifts. Absolutely. For me, Terry, for years -- almost 40 -- I could not raise my hands in worship. And when I finally did that, it was such a distraction in and of itself. The single most important event in my life was a sermon by a preacher who said (in 1997) : "Do yourselves a favor and obsess on the Lord for just seven days. Only Christian songs. No news. No newspaper. Nothin but Jesus." It took me a few days, but I decided to try it. I even disconnected by cable TV Anyway, for me that "event" lasted almost two years. It was during that sojourn that I experienced this filling. Gal. 3:27 says this: "All of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." What if Paul is speaking of obsessing about Christ, or immersing yourself into Christ (isn't that what "baptizo" actually means, immersion?). Just a thought. A brother John Smithson
Re: [TruthTalk] Party Crashing
Thanks again, Kevin. I really want to praise you. You've helped me more in this area than any of my wonderfully Christian professors. Thanks again. Bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Party Crashing It is about time that you are sure. If you had a sure foundation maybe you would not be slip sliding. "Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin says > I hear a lot of praise for men around TT, Paloney, Peck. At least one of which professes of a spirit possesion. Prov 28:4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them. And Judy praises Kevin and calls him a blessing, and then shares this insight from some other man > "It has escaped the understanding of many Christians that what they believe is more often shaped by the teachings and traditions of religious men than by Scripture. Yet the wisdom of the world is no substitute for God's Word, even if offered from the pulpit or in the Christian media. Jesus warns us in Matthew 24:12 that in the last days the love of many toward Him would grow cold because evil would increase in the world. There is little time to waste in the short span of life granted us by God. We must choose today whom we will serve." I want to praise you both for helping me with my understanding of how to distinguish between men and men, and which it is with whom to contend. Thank you. I'm more sure than ever that I serve the real Jesus. Bill Taylor Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
Kevin, maybe sometimes its better to stay out of other people's business, especially if all you are doing in it is making matters worse. Even the paranoid (like me, and John, and Izzy, and DaveH, and Blaine, and Lance, and DavidM, and whoever else you don't like) can have some true enemies. Bill Taylor - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 1:47 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious Well I guess Jesus should rewrite Mark 16 Todays 21 first century version: Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to those that want to hear it[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/28/2004 2:48:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is a public list and you are choosing to be hereWhy do you communicate with Izzy? Do you actually think you are accomplishing some good addressing your thoughts to someone who is not listening to you? I don't mind the discussion with you, but Izzy does. the scriptures teach that we are not to "seek our own." Love does not seek its own way or will. Izzy does have a delete button. And you have instruction from God on how to show respect to others. Why not practice what you preach instead of insisting on your "rights" as a member of a public list. John Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
[TruthTalk] Some questions
From: "Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy says > "everyone wasn't pleased with Jesus; he made people angry ..." Yes, yes, and so do you. I guess that makes you Christlike. Bill Taylor jt: Sigh! Whatever Bill PS. Sometimes Blaine and DaveH and I make people angry too. What does that make us? jt: Whatever your logic tells you From: Judy Taylor From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Christianity is indeed offensive to the natural human mind; jt: How did the "truth" get changed to "Christianity" Lance? At times the two are incompatible.. and yet it is often made offensive by its representatives for the wrong reasons. jt: Been there, done that, also. We lived in AR for 2yrs and I started attending the local rcc because I could not handle the Bible Belt Baptists. I didn't understand what being "saved" was all about and the aggressive manner of the preacher sent me running the other way ATST I knew he was well meaning. I've been rebuffed occasionally while "speaking the truth" and, in hindsight deserved it! jt: So you weren't suffering for the sake of righteousness?? God grant us the discernment to recognize the distinction between being offensive and saying things that are intrinsically offensive. Let's not confuse our role with that of the Spirit of God. Lance jt: This won's happen until we learn obedience. Jesus did and said nothing he had not first seen his Father do and say. When we learn to be led by the Spirit of God and follow the Master's voice it will happen. ATST everyone wasn't pleased with Jesus; he made people angry ... judyt - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 28, 2004 11:39 Subject: [TruthTalk] Some Questions about Getting to know you. From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> God did not make the body of Christ to be all fingers or toes or eyeballs. The body needs some of each to be complete. We need one another. With that in mind, it seems inappropriate to me to tell a brother or sister not to speak (write) to us again. By the same token, it is wrong to cram our opinions down someone else's throat. Maybe if we all went back and studied what Paul had to say love was? Terry jt: I agree with you on both counts Terry. It's not good to take up offenses and it's not good to cram our own opinions down other's throats. I've heard the saying "People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." in the past and wondered where this saying originated. Do any of the scholars on TT know? This idea may be the basis for Churches like Saddleback in CA who go out of their way to create an environment which makes the unbeliever feel good but is founded upon the principles of mass marketing rather than God's Word. I have to say that the Church I was raised in, although spiritually dead, was full of nice folk who acted like they cared about me but were void of truth. a) How does "speaking the truth in love" happen? Does it take place by osmosis or does someone need to make a concerted effort? b) Since the truth has never been popular to ppl walking in the flesh, is someone who is willing to go out on a limb with it walking in love or lifting themselves up? judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/28/2004 7:04:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hey John: Having been in the same predicament in my early years, I think the term "target" is a vivid and accurate description of your experience. Could you perhaps define this filling that you experienced afterward? It might be that many of us have experienced the same thing but are unable to put a name on it or describe it. I assume that God is the senior partner? Yes, God is the senior partner. As so many of these testimonies go, my filling came unexpectedly. After I left the church service, I got in my little Camaro and started down the drive to the main street some 100 years away. I became so overcome with emotion, that I had to pull over and wait. The biblical word is "filling" that is exactly what it was -- I was simply full of emotion. Being macho is or was a big deal to me. Emotions are always resisted. But no more. In fact, I cannot be involved in a song service with any dynamic to it at all without being overcome -- filled . Eph 5:18-19 talks of being filled with the Spirit when we sing and make melody. I believe that tongues is a present time gift, but not for me. Filling, however, is an occurance that is intended for us and happens to more ooften than we know. there were no lights, no warm feeling, no great sense of peace -- you know, all the things you so often hear (and I am not challenging those things). It was like I had been hit with a ton of bricks -- I am driving, I get emotional, I am overcome with those emotions, I pull over and wait -- spending that time talking with God and things in regard to filling have been different ever since (Dec. 1997 -- almost exactly 40 years after my baptism as a 12 year old, Dec. 27, 1957). I was one of those guys who thought I needed tongues. I did everything known to modern man to receive that gift. Lance talks about bias and how it relates to what we believe. Well, since not receiving that gift, I look at some scriptures very differently than I used to. Anyway, I don't want to get too wordy. Does his answer your question? John Yes, it does, and I appreciate your honesty and openness. If it were proper for a Christian to envy, I would envy your ability to get such a filling from a sermon or a song. I guess I am just not built along those lines. Compared to me, Mr. Spock of Star Wars fame would be an emotional person. Normally, I just have to take God's word as truth and let it go at that. There is never an accomanying feeling . If He says I am saved, I accept that as a fact, even though I may not feel anything that validates or enhances the statement. There are a couple of exceptions to the foregoing however. On two occasions I have felt absolutly compelled to go and tell someone about our Lord and attempt to win them to Christ. On both occasions, the individual made Jesus their Savior, and I wanted to jump up and down and praise the Lord for seeing fit to use me as His messenger. That is unusual for me. Both those men are dead now. I look forward to seeing them again some day. I wouldn't worry about the tongues thing. Paul said it was the least important of all the gifts. Thanks again, Terry
[TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
Right on. You know Kevin I can understand receiving a lot of flack out on the street preaching to unbelievers, in SLC, or in my case with my unbelieving family and other unbelievers. What I find tragic on TT is that on a list like this where most people claim to be serving the Lord one finds the same resistance to God's Word and some are just as mean or meaner than the ones out on the street How does this figure? jt From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Well I guess Jesus should rewrite Mark 16 Todays 21 first century version: Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to those that want to hear it[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/28/2004 2:48:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is a public list and you are choosing to be hereWhy do you communicate with Izzy? Do you actually think you are accomplishing some good addressing your thoughts to someone who is not listening to you? I don't mind the discussion with you, but Izzy does. the scriptures teach that we are not to "seek our own." Love does not seek its own way or will. Izzy does have a delete button. And you have instruction from God on how to show respect to others. Why not practice what you preach instead of insisting on your "rights" as a member of a public list. John Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
Re: [TruthTalk] Some questions
Judy says > "everyone wasn't pleased with Jesus; he made people angry ..." Yes, yes, and so do you. I guess that makes you Christlike. Bill Taylor PS. Sometimes Blaine and DaveH and I make people angry too. What does that make us? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 10:14 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Some questions From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Christianity is indeed offensive to the natural human mind; jt: How did the "truth" get changed to "Christianity" Lance? At times the two are incompatible.. and yet it is often made offensive by its representatives for the wrong reasons. jt: Been there, done that, also. We lived in AR for 2yrs and I started attending the local rcc because I could not handle the Bible Belt Baptists. I didn't understand what being "saved" was all about and the aggressive manner of the preacher sent me running the other way ATST I knew he was well meaning. I've been rebuffed occasionally while "speaking the truth" and, in hindsight deserved it! jt: So you weren't suffering for the sake of righteousness?? God grant us the discernment to recognize the distinction between being offensive and saying things that are intrinsically offensive. Let's not confuse our role with that of the Spirit of God. Lance jt: This won's happen until we learn obedience. Jesus did and said nothing he had not first seen his Father do and say. When we learn to be led by the Spirit of God and follow the Master's voice it will happen. ATST everyone wasn't pleased with Jesus; he made people angry ... judyt - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 28, 2004 11:39 Subject: [TruthTalk] Some Questions about Getting to know you. From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> God did not make the body of Christ to be all fingers or toes or eyeballs. The body needs some of each to be complete. We need one another. With that in mind, it seems inappropriate to me to tell a brother or sister not to speak (write) to us again. By the same token, it is wrong to cram our opinions down someone else's throat. Maybe if we all went back and studied what Paul had to say love was? Terry jt: I agree with you on both counts Terry. It's not good to take up offenses and it's not good to cram our own opinions down other's throats. I've heard the saying "People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." in the past and wondered where this saying originated. Do any of the scholars on TT know? This idea may be the basis for Churches like Saddleback in CA who go out of their way to create an environment which makes the unbeliever feel good but is founded upon the principles of mass marketing rather than God's Word. I have to say that the Church I was raised in, although spiritually dead, was full of nice folk who acted like they cared about me but were void of truth. a) How does "speaking the truth in love" happen? Does it take place by osmosis or does someone need to make a concerted effort? b) Since the truth has never been popular to ppl walking in the flesh, is someone who is willing to go out on a limb with it walking in love or lifting themselves up? judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
In a message dated 3/28/2004 1:43:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Amos 5:10 They hate him that rebuketh in the gate, and they abhor him that speaketh uprightly. Or maybe Proverbs 12:1 applies: Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge. But he who hates reproof is stupid.
Re: [TruthTalk] Some Questions about Getting to know you.
jt > This idea may be the basis for Churches like Saddleback in CA who go out of their way to create an environment which makes the unbeliever feel good but is founded upon the principles of mass marketing rather than God's Word. I have to say that the Church I was raised in, although spiritually dead, was full of nice folk who acted like they cared about me but were void of truth. Were they "acting" as in, it was fake? Or did they really care about you? Does a person have to be spiritually alive to genuinely care about another? How do you know the Church was "spiritually dead"? Does that mean everyone there was this? Does your statement translate into a corresponding belief that Saddleback is spiritually dead, because they founded upon a marketing plan rather than God's word? Just curious about your thoughts, Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 9:39 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Some Questions about Getting to know you. From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> God did not make the body of Christ to be all fingers or toes or eyeballs. The body needs some of each to be complete. We need one another. With that in mind, it seems inappropriate to me to tell a brother or sister not to speak (write) to us again. By the same token, it is wrong to cram our opinions down someone else's throat. Maybe if we all went back and studied what Paul had to say love was? Terry jt: I agree with you on both counts Terry. It's not good to take up offenses and it's not good to cram our own opinions down other's throats. I've heard the saying "People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." in the past and wondered where this saying originated. Do any of the scholars on TT know? This idea may be the basis for Churches like Saddleback in CA who go out of their way to create an environment which makes the unbeliever feel good but is founded upon the principles of mass marketing rather than God's Word. I have to say that the Church I was raised in, although spiritually dead, was full of nice folk who acted like they cared about me but were void of truth. a) How does "speaking the truth in love" happen? Does it take place by osmosis or does someone need to make a concerted effort? b) Since the truth has never been popular to ppl walking in the flesh, is someone who is willing to go out on a limb with it walking in love or lifting themselves up? judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Some questions
Amen, Lance. - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 9:58 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Some questions Christianity is indeed offensive to the natural human mind;and yet it is often made offensive by its representatives for the wrong reasons. I've been rebuffed occasionally while "speaking the truth" and, in hindsight deserved it! God grant us the discernment to recognize the distinction between being offensive and saying things that are intrinsically offensive. Let's not confuse our role with that of the Spirit of God. Lance - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 28, 2004 11:39 Subject: [TruthTalk] Some Questions about Getting to know you. From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> God did not make the body of Christ to be all fingers or toes or eyeballs. The body needs some of each to be complete. We need one another. With that in mind, it seems inappropriate to me to tell a brother or sister not to speak (write) to us again. By the same token, it is wrong to cram our opinions down someone else's throat. Maybe if we all went back and studied what Paul had to say love was? Terry jt: I agree with you on both counts Terry. It's not good to take up offenses and it's not good to cram our own opinions down other's throats. I've heard the saying "People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." in the past and wondered where this saying originated. Do any of the scholars on TT know? This idea may be the basis for Churches like Saddleback in CA who go out of their way to create an environment which makes the unbeliever feel good but is founded upon the principles of mass marketing rather than God's Word. I have to say that the Church I was raised in, although spiritually dead, was full of nice folk who acted like they cared about me but were void of truth. a) How does "speaking the truth in love" happen? Does it take place by osmosis or does someone need to make a concerted effort? b) Since the truth has never been popular to ppl walking in the flesh, is someone who is willing to go out on a limb with it walking in love or lifting themselves up? judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. Judy you have been Rebuked for communicating. Please do not communicate a rebuke to John this is a one way street. Is it not a little hypocritical to jump in to your conversation to tell you not to do the same? John's work here accomplishes good in his eyes. As per his rebuke for you, it appears in his eyes, you have no good to accomplish! Are you standing for truth? Amos 5:10 They hate him that rebuketh in the gate, and they abhor him that speaketh uprightly. Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is a public list and you are choosing to be here john: Why do you communicate with Izzy? jt: Why do you want to keep stirring this John? Do you actually think you are accomplishing some good addressing your thoughts to someone who is not listening to you? jt: I don't address my thoughts to Izzy normally. I did write her off list but she ignored that and this will most likely make things worse. Why can't we address issues and leave the personal stuff alone. I don't mind the discussion with you, but Izzy does. the scriptures teach that we are not to "seek our own." Love does not seek its own way or will. Izzy does have a delete button. jt: Then John, let Izzy use her delete button just like I use mine. Why are you taking up an offense for her? And you have instruction from God on how to show respect to others. Why not practice what you preach instead of insisting on your "rights" as a member of a public list. jt: Do you have instruction from God to jump into the middle of this. I think there is a Proverb about ppl who get into quarrels that don't concern them. Why are you doing this? Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
Re: [TruthTalk] M Scott Peck a Christian LOL
In a message dated 3/28/2004 1:29:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Could it be possible that Scott Peck and his writings have a purpose in the world outside of bringing people to Christ? Yes and a great point. Ad hank God for your relationship and conversion. John Smithson I must say that I have enjoyed your (you all) response to Terry's request. When time is right, Terry, continue the thread.
RE: [TruthTalk] M Scott Peck a Christian LOL
Well if God can use a Donkey or a devil possesed preacher like Judas. I guess he could use a demon possesed author. ( of course as Scott says it was a good evil spirit!)Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: TT'rs,Could it be possible that Scott Peck and his writings have a purpose in the world outside of bringing people to Christ?In the early 80's I was reading Peck's "The Road Less Traveled". It was instrumental in my growth as an individual, and helped to place me on a path of peace, tolerance, understanding, and others awareness. At that time I was not a Christian, but a seeker.10 years later I became a Christian and, if it was not for the changes made in my life that I underwent in the early 80's, at least in part assisted by Scott peck's book, I might not have ever found Christ (or, maybe I would not have ever let Him find me!)Would I have sought Christ without Scott peck's help? Would I have let Him seek me without Scott Peck's help? Only God truly knows. But, I do know that Peck's book was instrumental in turning me from an inward position, focused on self, to an outward position, focused on others. Without this turn, I may never have been able to recognize the movement of the Spirit within me.Perry>From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: [TruthTalk] M Scott Peck a Christian LOL>Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:49:18 -0500>>Now how could anyone in their right mind take what this man writes>seriously? He is obviously confused and most definitely does not know>the Lord.>>Claims to have been a Christian for 13yrs - with a nun as spiritual>adviser?>Says he was accosted by an evil spirit but identifies it as a "good evil>spirit">Yeah right! "Hath God said?" This guy could sell snow cones in Alaska...>reminds me of witches who claim there is black magic and white magic.>>"A doubleminded man is unstable in all his ways [] let not that man>think>that he shall receive anything of the Lord" Peck has no idea what sin is>or>what Christianity is for that matter so what spiritual insight of his>could be>ov value? It's all from the wrong kingdom.>>From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but>inwardly they are ravening wolves," (Matthew 7:15)..>The following is a interview with M Scott Peck:>"Door: It is interesting that you describe your writing as a calling. Is>this a calling from God?>"Peck: I hesitate using the word `God' in that simplistic kind of way. My>books are not `channeled' materials>"Door: There are a number of writers and others who are convinced that>you are part of the New Age Movement.>"Peck: Really? Well, we can come back to that subject if you'd like>My spiritual director, who is a nun, says that God never calls you to do>something that doesn't feel right in your heart. Jesus went to the cross,>which wasn't something He felt like doing, but the cross felt much better>than the only alternative which was to retire on His pension plan>"Door: When we interviewed you last, you had become a Christian three>years previously. Now that it has been 10 years, could you comment on how>your own personal faith has changed over the decade?>"Peck: I don't like the term `became a Christian.' ...I hope to God that>I'm going to continue to be converted until I die and perhaps well after>that, which is what I think purgatory is all about>"Door: Why do we have this feeling of impending doom?>"Peck: God knows when I'll ever write about this, so you might as well>write about it.>"Door: Uh - thanks.>"Peck: I have had some dealings with evil spirits, but I have never given>any thought to possibility of good spirits. One night while I was in the>midst of my depression, my Dark Night of the Senses, I went to bed. I had>not fallen asleep and this was not a dream. I was accosted by a spirit.>"Door: A spirit?>"Peck: ...Almost as instantly, I asked what kind of spirit this was and I>immediately knew it was a good spirit rather than a bad spirit. But I>also knew I could either confront this spirit or shake it off. I wondered>what kind of good spirit it was. The answer came to me immediately. It>was a spirit of mirth.>"Door: A spirit of mirth?>"Peck: That was when the battle began. Just because this seemed to be a>spirit of mirth, how did I know for sure? If I let it in ->"Door: - You mean like a possession or something?>"Peck: Yes So I gave in to this spirit and I giggled myself to sleep.>"Door: Since we are talking about the bizarre, we hear a lot of people ->who act like they know what they're talking about - claiming that you are>`New Age.' What are your feelings about the New Age Movement?>"Peck: I am and I am not New Age. ...there are some things about the New>Age Movement that are very godly, and some things that are potentially>evil.>"Door: What is it that you like about the New Age Movement?>"Peck: I wouldn't use the word `like.' The New Age Movement is a reaction>to the
Re: [TruthTalk] Party Crashing
Bill Taylor I want to praise you both for helping me with my understanding of how to distinguish between men and men, and which it is with whom to contend. Thank you. I'm more sure than ever that I serve the real Jesus. I am glad to be of service, & am glad you have figured it out, stick with the BOOK! 1 Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. You just figured it out? It was in the BOOK all the time! 1 Co Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. Therefore let no man glory in men For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. If I want more wisdom than the ancients I go to the Word! Not some demon possesed philospher or author. Ps 119:I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts."Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin says > I hear a lot of praise for men around TT, Paloney, Peck. At least one of which professes of a spirit possesion. Prov 28:4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them. And Judy praises Kevin and calls him a blessing, and then shares this insight from some other man > "It has escaped the understanding of many Christians that what they believe is more often shaped by the teachings and traditions of religious men than by Scripture. Yet the wisdom of the world is no substitute for God's Word, even if offered from the pulpit or in the Christian media. Jesus warns us in Matthew 24:12 that in the last days the love of many toward Him would grow cold because evil would increase in the world. There is little time to waste in the short span of life granted us by God. We must choose today whom we will serve." I want to praise you both for helping me with my understanding of how to distinguish between men and men, and which it is with whom to contend. Thank you. I'm more sure than ever that I serve the real Jesus. Bill TaylorDo you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
[TruthTalk] Prayer request.
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: When Jesus spoke of unity and when Paul wrote of reconciliation they were both speaking of unifying around truth and the only way we are reconciled to God is to agree with Him by first accepting and then walking in His Truth. john: This logically means that you have never and will never change your mind about any doctrinal position you have -- jt: It may mean that to you but it certainly does not mean that to me. I do not have ALL truth and I have said so repeatedly. Where have you been? that would mean that you had accepted 'false" doctrine. You, of course, fantacize that you are full grown as a child of God. There is no room for growth in YOUR gospel because "growth" demands that we are in error. jt: I have been deceived in the past and the Lord has gotten me out of the ditch more than once - the above is your fantasy John and yours alone. You've not understood anything I've been saying. Oh well, I tried and will continue to obey the Lord.
RE: [TruthTalk] M Scott Peck a Christian LOL
TT'rs, Could it be possible that Scott Peck and his writings have a purpose in the world outside of bringing people to Christ? In the early 80's I was reading Peck's "The Road Less Traveled". It was instrumental in my growth as an individual, and helped to place me on a path of peace, tolerance, understanding, and others awareness. At that time I was not a Christian, but a seeker. 10 years later I became a Christian and, if it was not for the changes made in my life that I underwent in the early 80's, at least in part assisted by Scott peck's book, I might not have ever found Christ (or, maybe I would not have ever let Him find me!) Would I have sought Christ without Scott peck's help? Would I have let Him seek me without Scott Peck's help? Only God truly knows. But, I do know that Peck's book was instrumental in turning me from an inward position, focused on self, to an outward position, focused on others. Without this turn, I may never have been able to recognize the movement of the Spirit within me. Perry From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] M Scott Peck a Christian LOL Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:49:18 -0500 Now how could anyone in their right mind take what this man writes seriously? He is obviously confused and most definitely does not know the Lord. Claims to have been a Christian for 13yrs - with a nun as spiritual adviser? Says he was accosted by an evil spirit but identifies it as a "good evil spirit" Yeah right! "Hath God said?" This guy could sell snow cones in Alaska... reminds me of witches who claim there is black magic and white magic. "A doubleminded man is unstable in all his ways [] let not that man think that he shall receive anything of the Lord" Peck has no idea what sin is or what Christianity is for that matter so what spiritual insight of his could be ov value? It's all from the wrong kingdom. From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves," (Matthew 7:15). The following is a interview with M Scott Peck: "Door: It is interesting that you describe your writing as a calling. Is this a calling from God? "Peck: I hesitate using the word `God' in that simplistic kind of way. My books are not `channeled' materials "Door: There are a number of writers and others who are convinced that you are part of the New Age Movement. "Peck: Really? Well, we can come back to that subject if you'd like My spiritual director, who is a nun, says that God never calls you to do something that doesn't feel right in your heart. Jesus went to the cross, which wasn't something He felt like doing, but the cross felt much better than the only alternative which was to retire on His pension plan "Door: When we interviewed you last, you had become a Christian three years previously. Now that it has been 10 years, could you comment on how your own personal faith has changed over the decade? "Peck: I don't like the term `became a Christian.' ...I hope to God that I'm going to continue to be converted until I die and perhaps well after that, which is what I think purgatory is all about "Door: Why do we have this feeling of impending doom? "Peck: God knows when I'll ever write about this, so you might as well write about it. "Door: Uh - thanks. "Peck: I have had some dealings with evil spirits, but I have never given any thought to possibility of good spirits. One night while I was in the midst of my depression, my Dark Night of the Senses, I went to bed. I had not fallen asleep and this was not a dream. I was accosted by a spirit. "Door: A spirit? "Peck: ...Almost as instantly, I asked what kind of spirit this was and I immediately knew it was a good spirit rather than a bad spirit. But I also knew I could either confront this spirit or shake it off. I wondered what kind of good spirit it was. The answer came to me immediately. It was a spirit of mirth. "Door: A spirit of mirth? "Peck: That was when the battle began. Just because this seemed to be a spirit of mirth, how did I know for sure? If I let it in - "Door: - You mean like a possession or something? "Peck: Yes So I gave in to this spirit and I giggled myself to sleep. "Door: Since we are talking about the bizarre, we hear a lot of people - who act like they know what they're talking about - claiming that you are `New Age.' What are your feelings about the New Age Movement? "Peck: I am and I am not New Age. ...there are some things about the New Age Movement that are very godly, and some things that are potentially evil. "Door: What is it that you like about the New Age Movement? "Peck: I wouldn't use the word `like.' The New Age Movement is a reaction to the sins of the Christian Church, the sins of technology, and the excesses of science. "Door: What sins? "Peck: ...Computers. "Door: Computers? "Peck: ...These sins are very real. I think there
Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
Terry says > I would rather die than spend years sitting in a classroom, but if that is their thing, good for them. Some of them would probably rather work with their brain than with their hands, but I need to do something physical to feel as though I am actually working. Thanks, Terry. I have been to university and Seminary. My study was in History/Philosophy/Bible and Theology, and so I have spent years sitting in a classroom, and it is true that I like to work with my head. I am also a brick layer, rancher, and farmer, and so it is also true that I like to work with my hands, because I too need to do something physical to feel as though I am actually working. Can I ask you something? Where do I fit in in your mind, you being a hands-on type of guy? Bill Taylor - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 8:38 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you. Judy Taylor wrote: Good idea Terry on a difficult medium. Dean says he is not good expressing himself here and feel's more comfortable with IM and personal speaking. Some are better at expressing their feelings than others. Not sure where I stand in all this. I am learning to love more perfectly and am aware that we are all equal at the foot of the cross; I don't try to picture any of you one way or the other but from what I know, do appreciate everyone's specialness in the Lord.. When I painted a mental picture of the guys in the gowns and myself as an illiterate, I was trying to show that these pictures are only accurate to a small degree. There is so much more to a person than how educated or uneducated we are. These guys don't flaunt their degrees. I don't have my pickup sitting on blocks. Still, they have their experiences and I have mine, and we can learn from each other if we don't peck one another to pieces.I would rather die than spend years sitting in a classroom, but if that is their thing, good for them. Some of them would probably rather work with their brain than with their hands, but I need to do something physical to feel as though I am actually working. God did not make the body of Christ to be all fingers or toes or eyeballs. The body needs some of each to be complete. We need one another. With that in mind, it seems inappropriate to me to tell a brother or sister not to speak (write) to us again. By the same token, it is wrong to cram our opinions down someone else's throat. Maybe if we all went back and studied what Paul had to say love was?Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer request.
In a message dated 3/28/2004 1:11:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Growth at the expense of Truth is not real growth it is simply more Error! No kidding.
Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
In a message dated 3/28/2004 12:48:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why do you communicate with Izzy? Do you actually think you are accomplishing some good addressing your thoughts to someone who is not listening to you? I don't mind the discussion with you, but Izzy does. the scriptures teach that we are not to "seek our own." Love does not seek its own way or will. Izzy does have a delete button. And you have instruction from God on how to show respect to others. Why not practice what you preach instead of insisting on your "rights" as a member of a public list. kevin, I was quoting I Cor 13:5 but apparently you think this list is a mission field. Thanks for keeping us all on the straight and narrow. J
[TruthTalk] Walking after the Spirit
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: judyt writes: john: Actually, judyt, I am pretty much done with this discussion. jt: I'm not surprised, I don't think you have understood the first thing I've said if I can evaluate by your responses that is. john: Your God is the same God as that of all works-salvationist. jt: So you've given me a label and card filed me. That is not what I am about John, but that's OK. I'm talking about spiritual reality and apparently you are not there. You have no offer of hope to those who continue to have sin problems -- jt: Speak for yourself. I do have hope for my own sin and hope to share with others, that is, whosoever will come. in fact you do not recognize the continued sin in your own life. You actually think that your are perfect since "accepting Christ" and everyone else should be too. jt: That is not what I believe, nor is it what I have been saying. You are so quick to jump the gun. How did you ever pastor people. No wonder the professing Church is in such a terrible state. This is not the gospel of Christ. jt: I know. I don't believe it either. I's a figment of your imagination. I see I'm not the only one who misunderstands around here. I will not read or answer any of your emails in the future. jt: Why am I not surprised? Please yourself. I guess now there will be Izzy's camp and Judy's camp in your mind anyway.John
[TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is a public list and you are choosing to be here john: Why do you communicate with Izzy? jt: Why do you want to keep stirring this John? Do you actually think you are accomplishing some good addressing your thoughts to someone who is not listening to you? jt: I don't address my thoughts to Izzy normally. I did write her off list but she ignored that and this will most likely make things worse. Why can't we address issues and leave the personal stuff alone. I don't mind the discussion with you, but Izzy does. the scriptures teach that we are not to "seek our own." Love does not seek its own way or will. Izzy does have a delete button. jt: Then John, let Izzy use her delete button just like I use mine. Why are you taking up an offense for her? And you have instruction from God on how to show respect to others. Why not practice what you preach instead of insisting on your "rights" as a member of a public list. jt: Do you have instruction from God to jump into the middle of this. I think there is a Proverb about ppl who get into quarrels that don't concern them. Why are you doing this?
Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
Did you guys ever think that just maybe you have over reacted to the spiritual abuse you recieved in the past at the hands of a cult? Have you shed yourself of all the wrong teachings and bad feelings? Prov 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/28/2004 7:04:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hey John: Having been in the same predicament in my early years, I think the term "target" is a vivid and accurate description of your experience. Could you perhaps define this filling that you experienced afterward? It might be that many of us have experienced the same thing but are unable to put a name on it or describe it. I assume that God is the senior partner? Yes, God is the senior partner. As so many of these testimonies go, my filling came unexpectedly. After I left the church service, I got in my little Camaro and started down the drive to the main street some 100 years away. I became so overcome with emotion, that I had to pull over and wait. The biblical word is "filling" that is exactly what it was -- I was simply full of emotion. Being macho is or was a big deal to me. Emotions are always resisted. But no more. In fact, I cannot be involved in a song service with any dynamic to it at all without being overcome -- filled . Eph 5:18-19 talks of being filled with the Spirit when we sing and make melody. I believe that tongues is a present time gift, but not for me. Filling, however, is an occurance that is intended for us and happens to more ooften than we know. there were no lights, no warm feeling, no great sense of peace -- you know, all the things you so often hear (and I am not challenging those things). It was like I had been hit with a ton of bricks -- I am driving, I get emotional, I am overcome with those emotions, I pull over and wait -- spending that time talking with God and things in regard to filling have been different ever since (Dec. 1997 -- almost exactly 40 years after my baptism as a 12 year old, Dec. 27, 1957). I was one of those guys who thought I needed tongues. I did everything known to modern man to receive that gift. Lance talks about bias and how it relates to what we believe. Well, since not receiving that gift, I look at some scriptures very differently than I used to. Anyway, I don't want to get too wordy. Does his answer your question? John Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer request.
Growth at the expense of Truth is not real growth it is simply more Error![EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/28/2004 4:31:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: When Jesus spoke of unity and when Paul wrote of reconciliation they were both speaking of unifying around truth and the only way we are reconciled to God is to agree with Him by first accepting and then walking in His Truth. This logically means that you have never and will never change your mind about any doctrinal position you have -- that would mean that you had accepted 'false" doctrine. You, of course, fantacize that you are full grown as a child of God. There is no room for growth in YOUR gospel because "growth" demands that we are in error. John Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
Re: [TruthTalk] Party Crashing
It is about time that you are sure. If you had a sure foundation maybe you would not be slip sliding. "Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin says > I hear a lot of praise for men around TT, Paloney, Peck. At least one of which professes of a spirit possesion. Prov 28:4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them. And Judy praises Kevin and calls him a blessing, and then shares this insight from some other man > "It has escaped the understanding of many Christians that what they believe is more often shaped by the teachings and traditions of religious men than by Scripture. Yet the wisdom of the world is no substitute for God's Word, even if offered from the pulpit or in the Christian media. Jesus warns us in Matthew 24:12 that in the last days the love of many toward Him would grow cold because evil would increase in the world. There is little time to waste in the short span of life granted us by God. We must choose today whom we will serve." I want to praise you both for helping me with my understanding of how to distinguish between men and men, and which it is with whom to contend. Thank you. I'm more sure than ever that I serve the real Jesus. Bill TaylorDo you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
In a message dated 3/28/2004 7:04:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hey John: Having been in the same predicament in my early years, I think the term "target" is a vivid and accurate description of your experience. Could you perhaps define this filling that you experienced afterward? It might be that many of us have experienced the same thing but are unable to put a name on it or describe it. I assume that God is the senior partner? Yes, God is the senior partner. As so many of these testimonies go, my filling came unexpectedly. After I left the church service, I got in my little Camaro and started down the drive to the main street some 100 years away. I became so overcome with emotion, that I had to pull over and wait. The biblical word is "filling" that is exactly what it was -- I was simply full of emotion. Being macho is or was a big deal to me. Emotions are always resisted. But no more. In fact, I cannot be involved in a song service with any dynamic to it at all without being overcome -- filled . Eph 5:18-19 talks of being filled with the Spirit when we sing and make melody. I believe that tongues is a present time gift, but not for me. Filling, however, is an occurance that is intended for us and happens to more ooften than we know. there were no lights, no warm feeling, no great sense of peace -- you know, all the things you so often hear (and I am not challenging those things). It was like I had been hit with a ton of bricks -- I am driving, I get emotional, I am overcome with those emotions, I pull over and wait -- spending that time talking with God and things in regard to filling have been different ever since (Dec. 1997 -- almost exactly 40 years after my baptism as a 12 year old, Dec. 27, 1957). I was one of those guys who thought I needed tongues. I did everything known to modern man to receive that gift. Lance talks about bias and how it relates to what we believe. Well, since not receiving that gift, I look at some scriptures very differently than I used to. Anyway, I don't want to get too wordy. Does his answer your question? John
Re: [TruthTalk] Party Crashing
Kevin says > I hear a lot of praise for men around TT, Paloney, Peck. At least one of which professes of a spirit possesion. Prov 28:4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them. And Judy praises Kevin and calls him a blessing, and then shares this insight from some other man > "It has escaped the understanding of many Christians that what they believe is more often shaped by the teachings and traditions of religious men than by Scripture. Yet the wisdom of the world is no substitute for God's Word, even if offered from the pulpit or in the Christian media. Jesus warns us in Matthew 24:12 that in the last days the love of many toward Him would grow cold because evil would increase in the world. There is little time to waste in the short span of life granted us by God. We must choose today whom we will serve." I want to praise you both for helping me with my understanding of how to distinguish between men and men, and which it is with whom to contend. Thank you. I'm more sure than ever that I serve the real Jesus. Bill Taylor
Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
ShieldsFamily wrote: Terry, Okay, I’ll play. Although I don’t think it is “easy” to describe what I find awesome about the Lord. Perhaps it is His absolute tenderness, that He would care to save a piece of “trailer trash”-- a little girl who had no tenderness or beauty in her life, but had a big ache in her heart to know if there was a God out there somewhere, and if there was that would He just please let her know. That the Omnipotent would fall in love with a skinny little waif that nobody else cared much about, and couldn’t have offered Him a thing in exchange. That’s probably why I love animals, and old folks, and other helpless things today. I’m sure that’s why I love Him. He is the Tender One. Izzy A BIG AMEN! Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
Well I guess Jesus should rewrite Mark 16 Todays 21 first century version: Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to those that want to hear it[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/28/2004 2:48:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is a public list and you are choosing to be hereWhy do you communicate with Izzy? Do you actually think you are accomplishing some good addressing your thoughts to someone who is not listening to you? I don't mind the discussion with you, but Izzy does. the scriptures teach that we are not to "seek our own." Love does not seek its own way or will. Izzy does have a delete button. And you have instruction from God on how to show respect to others. Why not practice what you preach instead of insisting on your "rights" as a member of a public list. John Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer request.
Judy writes > "If you love me you will do what I say" that's [Jesus'] definition of love. Maybe. Or maybe its a consequence of loving him, and out-working of love itself. Maybe we should look a little deeper for our "definition." Bill Taylor - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 5:29 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer request. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 3/27/2004 10:37:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine: I think TT is neither of the devil nor of God. It is nothing more nor less than the summation of its parts--individuals all coming from different backgrounds and seeking to reconcile differences. Some of us listen, others just expect to be listened to. Egos play a major role on TT, I believe. jt: Ego being an attribute of the unregenerate flesh nature - interesting... john: Exactly. I especially like the "reconcile differences" notion. Christ's only concern for his 20th century disciples (John 17) was for unity. Ours is a ministry of "reconciliation" as Paul says. jt: When Jesus spoke of unity and when Paul wrote of reconciliation they were both speaking of unifying around truth and the only way we are reconciled to God is to agree with Him by first accepting and then walking in His Truth. john: My mother-in-law is Mormon. She was born into that faith. She will always be there. She would be afraid to leave. Status quo gives her the sense of security that she needs. jt: I find it sad that you have no hope for a change in direction for her. john: BUT, we have grown very close. She loves Billy Graham and she loves the Lord. jt: A lot of ppl like Billy Graham but how can one love the Lord and ATST reject his Word? He said in his own words "If you love me you will do what I say" that's his definition of love. john: The really great thing about Jesus is that He is not a Baptist, Catholic, and et al. I once spoke of praying for you, Blaine. I still do that. And the prayer is this: that you truly appreciate this salvation by faith apart from being right about everything and that the filling of God's spirit be the kind of experience it was intended to be. jt: Are you saying that Blaine is a "saved" person John and that the Mormon experiences of "burning bosom" and their temple ceremonies are acceptable with God? No wonder the Mormon boys stay confused about what protestant Christianity represents. john: Anyway, some of your observation are equally as thoughtful as Issy's, BillT, Miller's, Lance, Terry and so on. I truly believe this is a great group. God bless and good night. John Smithson
Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer request.
In a message dated 3/28/2004 4:31:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: When Jesus spoke of unity and when Paul wrote of reconciliation they were both speaking of unifying around truth and the only way we are reconciled to God is to agree with Him by first accepting and then walking in His Truth. This logically means that you have never and will never change your mind about any doctrinal position you have -- that would mean that you had accepted 'false" doctrine. You, of course, fantacize that you are full grown as a child of God. There is no room for growth in YOUR gospel because "growth" demands that we are in error. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Walking after the Spirit
In a message dated 3/28/2004 3:38:50 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: judyt writes: Actually, judyt, I am pretty much done with this discussion. Your God is the same God as that of all works-salvationist. You have no offer of hope to those who continue to have sin problems -- in fact you do not recognize the continued sin in your own life. You actually think that your are perfect since "accepting Christ" and everyone else should be too. This is not the gospel of Christ. I will not read or answer any of your emails in the future. John
Re: [TruthTalk] "free speech zones"
LDS want the right to preach on your PRIVATE PROPERTY, and have agued the same in federal court. Apparently they beleive others speech must be contained & or silenced even on public sidewalks! Preachers rebuff LDS buffer zones By Brady SnyderDeseret Morning News Despite Salt Lake City's efforts to "buffer" LDS Church members and stationary street preachers, those attending the church's annual general conference next weekend can expect to be sermonized as usual by members of the World Wide Street Preachers' Fellowship. Lonnie Pursifull delivers his message Friday outside Temple Square. He and other street preachers say they don't recognize buffer zones.Jeremy Harmon, Deseret Morning News Representatives of the group vowed Friday that they will not abide by the city's latest buffer plans, and the fellowship sought a temporary restraining order in U.S. District Court in Salt Lake City asking a federal judge to bar the city from establishing physical zones where preachers must stand while preaching during the most crowded times of conference weekend. "We're prepared to go to jail if we have to," street preacher Lonnie Pursifull said. "We're not going to be put into a box." The court filing comes after Salt Lake City released details of its plan to create free-speech zones across the street from the LDS Conference Center where preachers must stand when holding signs. When mobile, the preachers would be allowed to cross the street and mingle with conferencegoers, but those preachers would have to stay moving so as not to block pedestrian traffic. Also, on the conference side of North Temple there is a small zone where preachers can stand while holding signs. In court documents the preachers argue the city is sheltering and favoring the LDS Church while violating the rights of the preachers to practice their religion, which, according to the Bible, calls them to "stand" and "preach the gospel to every creature." "You got some people up there in the City Council favoring one religion over another, and we aren't going to have a hard time proving that," Street Preachers' Fellowship director Ron McRae said. "I don't think there's a federal judge in Denver (where the 10th Circuit is based) that's not going to agree with us." The city adopted the zones, designed to create a buffer between LDS Church members and preachers, after an LDS Church attorney asked the city to create "buffer" areas to shield conferencegoers from the preachers. At first City Attorney Ed Rutan and Mayor Rocky Anderson declined to include buffer zones when reviewing the city's free-speech laws. However, last week the city announced it would create the zones. The city's review of the free-speech laws followed the LDS Church's semiannual general conference last October, when two street preachers were assaulted by conference attendees. The two attackers became enraged when the preachers donned church clothing sacred to the LDS faithful. Many, including a group of evangelical Christians called Standing Together Ministries, have since decried the preachers for using what they consider mean-spirited tactics when preaching. It is unclear who at City Hall developed the idea of the speech zones. Even some City Council members who spoke to the Deseret Morning News were unclear on how the zones developed. A press release from the city attributed the idea to the city's police department, though the release was issued by the mayor's office. City Attorney Ed Rutan said Friday he wouldn't comment on who at City Hall developed the plan or if he or the mayor liked the idea. Anderson didn't return calls for comment Friday, and Rutan said he wouldn't comment on any aspects of the case. McRae maintains the city kowtowed to the LDS Church in creating the zones. In court, McRae said, the city will have to prove that the majority of LDS Church members are inclined to violence and can't help but assault the street preachers, necessitating the buffer zones. "The majority of Mormons out there are very nice people and are not violent at all," McRae said. "They are going to have to prove that we street preachers need to be protected (in buffer zones) because the vast majority of Mormons are violent." Since most LDS Church members are generally peaceful, McRae said, the city's real motivation is not to protect the street preachers from assaults but to shield LDS Church members from their message. Dani Eyer, director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Utah, said she believes the city's buffer zone plan is constitutional. However, she said it does seem that the city is going to extraordinary lengths to protect the LDS Church from the preachers. In fact, Eyer said, the U.S. Supreme Court has less-strict buffer zone rules in front of its Washington, D.C., building than the city has planned in front of the church's Conference Center. "It's interesting they would have str
Re: [TruthTalk] Walking after the Spirit
Terry set out a challenge for us to take into our considerations over the next week. It was a good challenge; the kind that is already bearing fruit as we read of God's splendor in people's lives. I will be taking his challenge with me this week. I read this discussion between jt and js (see below, waaay below), my heart becomes heavy. Rather than saying why that is at this time, and thus evoke the wrath of either, I would like to put forth another challenge for the week ahead. In our quiet time, when we're just reading the Bible because we love God's word, why don't we pay attention to the relationship between the indicatives of grace and how they stand in comparison to the imperatives of obedience? There's much to be learned here and appreciated if we will but try to do it. If you are unfamiliar with my terms, please allow me to explain them a little further. Indicatives are verbs that indicate the status of relationship between the subject and the object of a sentence. Indicatives do not expect or request things of the object; they simply indicate and declare; e.g., in Jesus' prayer of John 17, look at the nature of the subject-object relationships in verse 19 -- "For their sakes I sanctify myself that they also might be sanctified through truth." Jesus is the subject throughout this statement. The verb "sanctify" is indicative. Jesus sanctifies himself that the objects of his act, the their and theys, might also be sanctified through truth. The verb indicates his heart for them; it indicates his desire for them; it indicates his intention for them; it indicates his willingness to suffer on their behalf, it indicates how he loves them, all very relational stuff. The "indicatives of grace" are those verbs that indicate the status of our relationship with the Father, through the Son, in the Holy Spirit. What is the status of that relationship? That is the question. Imperatives, on the other hand, are verbs which do make requests and carry expectations. Often times in statements where the verb is an imperative, the speaker, the one making the request, is not explicitly identified in the statement itself. We have to look for the speaker elsewhere in the context of the passage to determine his identity. By nature then imperatives are less relational than indicatives in terms of closeness between the subject and objects involved. This is not to say that imperatives are non-relational verbs -- quite the opposite. It simply means that the subject-object relationship of imperatives is depdendent upon the closeness supplied by the indicatives of their relationship. In other words, relational proximity is established by indicatives and not imperatives. Let me say this differently. Let's look at Matthew 28.18-20; there's all kind of indicatives and imperatives in this passage. Let's look at how they relate. When Jesus says, "... Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, ..." the words "go" and "make" are imperatives. They are commands. The subject of this statement itself is "you." You go and you make disciples. Now, the question is, is Jesus heaping the whole weight of disciple making upon the backs of his disciples? This statement, by itself (and without support from a greater context!), sounds as though he is. It doesn't sound like he is close to them; it sounds like he's abandoning them! Is that the case? No! Of course not But we can only know that if we go looking for the proximity of the speaker, the first subject of the statement, in relationship to the recipients of his command (This is so important, because sometimes the indicatives of the Speaker-recipient relationship are several verses removed from the imperatives of his request, sometimes they even show up after the imperatives have been stated. BECAUSE sometimes the commandments will make us feel very isolated and over weighted, AND SO we need know how to find something to indicate the nature of our relationship to the speaker). Where is Jesus going to be while his disciples are making disciples? What is his role in all of this? Where is he speaking from? To answer those questions we have to look for something which indicates the status of Jesus' relationship to his disciples. In this instance we do not have to look very far: "And Jesus came and space unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. ... and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." The verbs "came" and "spoke" are indicatives. The verb "is given" is indicative. The verb "am," in I am with you always, is indicative. What is the relational status between Jesus and his disciples in the commandment to "go" and "make"? It is very close and tight, Jesus empowering his disciples. We know this because of the indicatives supplied by the greater context. Disciples go and make new disciples through his authority, baptizing them in his name (the name of our God) and tea
Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
Marlin Halverson wrote: Who's next? Terry My family just spent the evening with other brethren singing praises to God. As far as mind games and endless argumentation, it never ends. I can easily get involved and say something if I feel led to do so. I love to enjoy the creation also. But, what is most important to my life is the relationship developing between my family and God. We are applying his word in our lives to the best of our ability. I marvel at the way the holy spirit is leading my wife and children as we struggle together to make ends meet. Tomorrow begins six more days of hard work, growing beautiful plants and sending them to market. We sing together when we can. We need each other. --Marlin === Good to see that you are concentrating on what is important. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious
In a message dated 3/28/2004 2:48:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is a public list and you are choosing to be here Why do you communicate with Izzy? Do you actually think you are accomplishing some good addressing your thoughts to someone who is not listening to you? I don't mind the discussion with you, but Izzy does. the scriptures teach that we are not to "seek our own." Love does not seek its own way or will. Izzy does have a delete button. And you have instruction from God on how to show respect to others. Why not practice what you preach instead of insisting on your "rights" as a member of a public list. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Academics
In a message dated 3/27/2004 11:55:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John, Is he doing a residency in trauma care? How many years? I canât imagine what he is enduring to do his research right now. Are you able to keep in touch with him there? Izzy My son is James Smithson. James has just finished his academic requirements at S.F. and is taking nine months off to do this research before his fours years of residency. He likes the ER in Fresno - it is a little hairy and fast paste. He is not fully settled on trauma. Maybe he should join this list if he wants some real experience in trauma. Anyway, he is a wonderful kid one of three brothers; all were state wrestling champions. I have coached for years. There mom and I divorced in 1987 and I raised James and his younger brother. I worry sometimes about being so tender hearted -- him not me. He comes home in tears very often, especially when he loses a patient. Impute from your husband would not hurt. Hang in there in this list. I appreciate your comments and sense of maturity. With judyt -- just delete. There are two individuals from another list that are very much outside the will of God -- more than any on this list. They continue to send me postings -- I have pretty much warn out the delete button on them. Grace to you John
Re: [TruthTalk] Some Questions about Getting to know you.
Judy Taylor wrote: From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> God did not make the body of Christ to be all fingers or toes or eyeballs. The body needs some of each to be complete. We need one another. With that in mind, it seems inappropriate to me to tell a brother or sister not to speak (write) to us again. By the same token, it is wrong to cram our opinions down someone else's throat. Maybe if we all went back and studied what Paul had to say love was? Terry jt: I agree with you on both counts Terry. It's not good to take up offenses and it's not good to cram our own opinions down other's throats. I've heard the saying "People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." in the past and wondered where this saying originated. Do any of the scholars on TT know? tc.Maybe it originated with Paul. It is consistant with his teaching. This idea may be the basis for Churches like Saddleback in CA who go out of their way to create an environment which makes the unbeliever feel good but is founded upon the principles of mass marketing rather than God's Word. I have to say that the Church I was raised in, although spiritually dead, was full of nice folk who acted like they cared about me but were void of truth. tc. We are not talking about acting like we care a) How does "speaking the truth in love" happen? Does it take place by osmosis or does someone need to make a concerted effort? b) Since the truth has never been popular to ppl walking in the flesh, is someone who is willing to go out on a limb with it walking in love or lifting themselves up? judyt tc.Could be either one. The thing we usually do when given two choices is to think the worst.
[TruthTalk] Courtesy of Lamar
After the christening of his baby brother in church, Jason sobbed all the way home in the back seat of the car. His father asked him three times what was wrong. Finally, the boy replied, "That preacher said he wanted us brought up in a Christian home, and I wanted to stay with you guys." -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Re:Truth/Christianity/Jesus
Embodied vs disembodied - a Person - Jesus. Amen to your appropriate distinction.Does this guy (Lance) have a life? Ya. I'm doin' stuff in between.Lance - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 28, 2004 12:14 Subject: [TruthTalk] Some questions From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Christianity is indeed offensive to the natural human mind; jt: How did the "truth" get changed to "Christianity" Lance? At times the two are incompatible.. and yet it is often made offensive by its representatives for the wrong reasons. jt: Been there, done that, also. We lived in AR for 2yrs and I started attending the local rcc because I could not handle the Bible Belt Baptists. I didn't understand what being "saved" was all about and the aggressive manner of the preacher sent me running the other way ATST I knew he was well meaning. I've been rebuffed occasionally while "speaking the truth" and, in hindsight deserved it! jt: So you weren't suffering for the sake of righteousness?? God grant us the discernment to recognize the distinction between being offensive and saying things that are intrinsically offensive. Let's not confuse our role with that of the Spirit of God. Lance jt: This won's happen until we learn obedience. Jesus did and said nothing he had not first seen his Father do and say. When we learn to be led by the Spirit of God and follow the Master's voice it will happen. ATST everyone wasn't pleased with Jesus; he made people angry ... judyt - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 28, 2004 11:39 Subject: [TruthTalk] Some Questions about Getting to know you. From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> God did not make the body of Christ to be all fingers or toes or eyeballs. The body needs some of each to be complete. We need one another. With that in mind, it seems inappropriate to me to tell a brother or sister not to speak (write) to us again. By the same token, it is wrong to cram our opinions down someone else's throat. Maybe if we all went back and studied what Paul had to say love was? Terry jt: I agree with you on both counts Terry. It's not good to take up offenses and it's not good to cram our own opinions down other's throats. I've heard the saying "People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." in the past and wondered where this saying originated. Do any of the scholars on TT know? This idea may be the basis for Churches like Saddleback in CA who go out of their way to create an environment which makes the unbeliever feel good but is founded upon the principles of mass marketing rather than God's Word. I have to say that the Church I was raised in, although spiritually dead, was full of nice folk who acted like they cared about me but were void of truth. a) How does "speaking the truth in love" happen? Does it take place by osmosis or does someone need to make a concerted effort? b) Since the truth has never been popular to ppl walking in the flesh, is someone who is willing to go out on a limb with it walking in love or lifting themselves up? judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
Very kind thoughts, Izzy. If we were closer neighbors, that would be nice, but, outside of our marketing area it is not economically sound because of the transportation costs. A neighbor closed down his business, which was an offshoot of the one that preceded ours. Thus we now service more than 100 florists in the eastern part of Kentucky, within about a 150 mile radius. Most of what we supply to the florists is used in funeral homes to comfort those who have lost their loved ones. In the Spring and Fall, we also supply plants to garden centers. Of concern to me is conducting business in a way that pleases God and develops character and training in my home-schooled children. Proverbs 22:6 says "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." This is my greatest God-ordained responsibility as a parent. It is not a job to pawn off on a "church." I believe that training a child "in the way that HE should go" takes into account individual aptitudes and abilities and interests, and matching these to opportunities that we can do our best to provide. I believe that training a child "in the way that he SHOULD go" takes into account the commandments of God which we will keep if we love Him. One way to appreciate God in return for His many blessings and benefits, resulting from our obedience and His grace, is to praise Him with songs. Musically, we are not what one calls "professionals." That is not our aim, so much as it is to edify one another and to praise God. There are CD recorders available now, but they are expensive. We hope to acquire one some day. The CDs themselves are cheap. --Marlin - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 3:36 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you. Marlin, You are precious. Perhaps some of us on TT could purchase our spring plants directly from your business. Is that possible??? Or do you just sell to local wholesalers? Would you let us know if there was something we could do to bless your family? We are all struggling in one way or another, and we need to help each other if we can. Have you and your family ever produced a musical C.D.? Seems like theres a lot of talent there. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlin HalversonSent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 9:23 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you. Who's next? Terry My family just spent the evening with other brethren singing praises to God. As far as mind games and endless argumentation, it never ends. I can easily get involved and say something if I feel led to do so. I love to enjoy the creation also. But, what is most important to my life is the relationship developing between my family and God. We are applying his word in our lives to the best of our ability. I marvel at the way the holy spirit is leading my wife and children as we struggle together to make ends meet. Tomorrow begins six more days of hard work, growing beautiful plants and sending them to market. We sing together when we can. We need each other. --Marlin
[TruthTalk] Some questions
From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Christianity is indeed offensive to the natural human mind; jt: How did the "truth" get changed to "Christianity" Lance? At times the two are incompatible.. and yet it is often made offensive by its representatives for the wrong reasons. jt: Been there, done that, also. We lived in AR for 2yrs and I started attending the local rcc because I could not handle the Bible Belt Baptists. I didn't understand what being "saved" was all about and the aggressive manner of the preacher sent me running the other way ATST I knew he was well meaning. I've been rebuffed occasionally while "speaking the truth" and, in hindsight deserved it! jt: So you weren't suffering for the sake of righteousness?? God grant us the discernment to recognize the distinction between being offensive and saying things that are intrinsically offensive. Let's not confuse our role with that of the Spirit of God. Lance jt: This won's happen until we learn obedience. Jesus did and said nothing he had not first seen his Father do and say. When we learn to be led by the Spirit of God and follow the Master's voice it will happen. ATST everyone wasn't pleased with Jesus; he made people angry ... judyt - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 28, 2004 11:39 Subject: [TruthTalk] Some Questions about Getting to know you. From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> God did not make the body of Christ to be all fingers or toes or eyeballs. The body needs some of each to be complete. We need one another. With that in mind, it seems inappropriate to me to tell a brother or sister not to speak (write) to us again. By the same token, it is wrong to cram our opinions down someone else's throat. Maybe if we all went back and studied what Paul had to say love was? Terry jt: I agree with you on both counts Terry. It's not good to take up offenses and it's not good to cram our own opinions down other's throats. I've heard the saying "People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." in the past and wondered where this saying originated. Do any of the scholars on TT know? This idea may be the basis for Churches like Saddleback in CA who go out of their way to create an environment which makes the unbeliever feel good but is founded upon the principles of mass marketing rather than God's Word. I have to say that the Church I was raised in, although spiritually dead, was full of nice folk who acted like they cared about me but were void of truth. a) How does "speaking the truth in love" happen? Does it take place by osmosis or does someone need to make a concerted effort? b) Since the truth has never been popular to ppl walking in the flesh, is someone who is willing to go out on a limb with it walking in love or lifting themselves up? judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Some questions
Christianity is indeed offensive to the natural human mind;and yet it is often made offensive by its representatives for the wrong reasons. I've been rebuffed occasionally while "speaking the truth" and, in hindsight deserved it! God grant us the discernment to recognize the distinction between being offensive and saying things that are intrinsically offensive. Let's not confuse our role with that of the Spirit of God. Lance - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 28, 2004 11:39 Subject: [TruthTalk] Some Questions about Getting to know you. From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> God did not make the body of Christ to be all fingers or toes or eyeballs. The body needs some of each to be complete. We need one another. With that in mind, it seems inappropriate to me to tell a brother or sister not to speak (write) to us again. By the same token, it is wrong to cram our opinions down someone else's throat. Maybe if we all went back and studied what Paul had to say love was? Terry jt: I agree with you on both counts Terry. It's not good to take up offenses and it's not good to cram our own opinions down other's throats. I've heard the saying "People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." in the past and wondered where this saying originated. Do any of the scholars on TT know? This idea may be the basis for Churches like Saddleback in CA who go out of their way to create an environment which makes the unbeliever feel good but is founded upon the principles of mass marketing rather than God's Word. I have to say that the Church I was raised in, although spiritually dead, was full of nice folk who acted like they cared about me but were void of truth. a) How does "speaking the truth in love" happen? Does it take place by osmosis or does someone need to make a concerted effort? b) Since the truth has never been popular to ppl walking in the flesh, is someone who is willing to go out on a limb with it walking in love or lifting themselves up? judyt
[TruthTalk] Some Questions about Getting to know you.
From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> God did not make the body of Christ to be all fingers or toes or eyeballs. The body needs some of each to be complete. We need one another. With that in mind, it seems inappropriate to me to tell a brother or sister not to speak (write) to us again. By the same token, it is wrong to cram our opinions down someone else's throat. Maybe if we all went back and studied what Paul had to say love was? Terry jt: I agree with you on both counts Terry. It's not good to take up offenses and it's not good to cram our own opinions down other's throats. I've heard the saying "People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." in the past and wondered where this saying originated. Do any of the scholars on TT know? This idea may be the basis for Churches like Saddleback in CA who go out of their way to create an environment which makes the unbeliever feel good but is founded upon the principles of mass marketing rather than God's Word. I have to say that the Church I was raised in, although spiritually dead, was full of nice folk who acted like they cared about me but were void of truth. a) How does "speaking the truth in love" happen? Does it take place by osmosis or does someone need to make a concerted effort? b) Since the truth has never been popular to ppl walking in the flesh, is someone who is willing to go out on a limb with it walking in love or lifting themselves up? judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
Judy Taylor wrote: Good idea Terry on a difficult medium. Dean says he is not good expressing himself here and feel's more comfortable with IM and personal speaking. Some are better at expressing their feelings than others. Not sure where I stand in all this. I am learning to love more perfectly and am aware that we are all equal at the foot of the cross; I don't try to picture any of you one way or the other but from what I know, do appreciate everyone's specialness in the Lord.. When I painted a mental picture of the guys in the gowns and myself as an illiterate, I was trying to show that these pictures are only accurate to a small degree. There is so much more to a person than how educated or uneducated we are. These guys don't flaunt their degrees. I don't have my pickup sitting on blocks. Still, they have their experiences and I have mine, and we can learn from each other if we don't peck one another to pieces. I would rather die than spend years sitting in a classroom, but if that is their thing, good for them. Some of them would probably rather work with their brain than with their hands, but I need to do something physical to feel as though I am actually working. God did not make the body of Christ to be all fingers or toes or eyeballs. The body needs some of each to be complete. We need one another. With that in mind, it seems inappropriate to me to tell a brother or sister not to speak (write) to us again. By the same token, it is wrong to cram our opinions down someone else's throat. Maybe if we all went back and studied what Paul had to say love was? Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
Judy Taylor wrote: I was born and raised in Melbourne Australia; both ggrandfathers on my fathers side came to the colony to spread the gospel, (they were Primitive Methodist ministers). However within two generations the truth had been lost and today my family in Australia are in darkness and frantically looking to psychology, eastern religion, whatever for some relief and peace but in their ignorance they continue to reject the fount of living water thinking they know all about it and there is nothing left to learn because they went to SS in a dead denominational Church, (one neice who is now a schoolteacher even taught it). It was a shock for me to learn how deceived I had been for all those years and this may be why I am such a stickler for God's Truth. I met my husband while on a working holiday and for 20yrs we were a Navy famly living overseas; it was during these years that I returned to the God of my fathers - (a God I had not known) and I began a serious study of the scriptures (trying to make up for lost time). This has been a transforming experience for me; the more I know Him through His Word the more I love Him and desire to do His Will; if I appear to you to be beside myself, please bear with me and forgive me. judyt Hey Judy: I would be the last person in the world to advise you to be anything other than a stickler for God's truth. The only thing I might suggest is that you think about what I heard a preacher say one time. "People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." You won't find those exact words in a Bible verse, but it is true, and it is biblical. I think maybe we have all assumed your being a stickler has ruled out your also being a carer. That's why I am hoping that we can all get to know each other better. You care more about people you know, especially your brothers and sisters in Christ. Just a thought Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/27/2004 5:32:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: concentrate for the same length of time on revealing ourselves to others in an effort to get to know one another more intimately, like brothers and sisters are supposed to. Let's start with something easy, like what do you find awesome about your Lord? Pretty good idea for a hayseed. Give me a few hours and I will narrow it down to one thing --- seriously. Actually, now that I think about it -- no contest. For me, it is God's ability to fill me up to overflowing. I had been a child of God for 40 years when I was first filled. I was single at the time and had dated a gal from the United Pentecostal Church of God. We had gone to church and left separately. If you are not familiar with that church, it is a tough place to go if you are not sure of who you are in the Lord. They might as well pass out 8x11 pictures of a target, pin it to your chest as they smile and welcome you into the sanctuary. God has often used the emotion of the song service to fill me since that time, but on that occasion, there was no emotion. I had left the worship service that night feeling like I had just escaped a witch hunt. The filling occurred in my car, no tongues, an obvious statement from God that filling can occur any time and any where and that it is not the result of simple emotionalism. Anyway, "church" for me is an occasion for that filling, a confirmation of who I am (a child of God) and the relationship I share with a partner God. Praise the Lord John Smithson Hey John: Having been in the same predicament in my early years, I think the term "target" is a vivid and accurate description of your experience. Could you perhaps define this filling that you experienced afterward? It might be that many of us have experienced the same thing but are unable to put a name on it or describe it. I assume that God is the senior partner? Terry
[TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
Good idea Terry on a difficult medium. Dean says he is not good expressing himself here and feel's more comfortable with IM and personal speaking. Some are better at expressing their feelings than others. Not sure where I stand in all this. I am learning to love more perfectly and am aware that we are all equal at the foot of the cross; I don't try to picture any of you one way or the other but from what I know, do appreciate everyone's specialness in the Lord.. I was born and raised in Melbourne Australia; both ggrandfathers on my fathers side came to the colony to spread the gospel, (they were Primitive Methodist ministers). However within two generations the truth had been lost and today my family in Australia are in darkness and frantically looking to psychology, eastern religion, whatever for some relief and peace but in their ignorance they continue to reject the fount of living water thinking they know all about it and there is nothing left to learn because they went to SS in a dead denominational Church, (one neice who is now a schoolteacher even taught it). It was a shock for me to learn how deceived I had been for all those years and this may be why I am such a stickler for God's Truth. I met my husband while on a working holiday and for 20yrs we were a Navy famly living overseas; it was during these years that I returned to the God of my fathers - (a God I had not known) and I began a serious study of the scriptures (trying to make up for lost time). This has been a transforming experience for me; the more I know Him through His Word the more I love Him and desire to do His Will; if I appear to you to be beside myself, please bear with me and forgive me. judyt From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> It occurred to me today during an off line conversation that though we are almost all brothers and sisters in Christ, we at the same time are strangers. I know a little more about some of you who have been on TT longer, and I know David Miller from spending part of a weekend in his company, but I still do not know any of you well. I suspect that most of you have the same problem. I picture the more educated among us as standing around in a gown and miter board with an armload of books, maybe some horn rimmed glasses thrown in. They probably picture me as the redneck dropout who can barely sign his name. Got the straw between my teeth and the pickup truck on blocks in the front yard. Trailer trash. I know I have to love you all whether you are my brother or my sister or my enemy. That is a command, not an option. Seeing that is so, I am going to love you all, BUT.. there exists in my opinion, a responsibility on the other party's part to not make it harder than necessary to carry out this command. Again, my opinion; I think it is much easier to love someone you know rather than someone who is just a face in the crowd or a voice from the podium. With that in mind, at the risk of appearing bossy, let me suggest that we stop criticizing for one week, and concentrate for the same length of time on revealing ourselves to others in an effort to get to know one another more intimately, like brothers and sisters are supposed to. Let's start with something easy, like what do you find awesome about your Lord? Just to get it going, I will open up first, sharing a thought that started the idea of this post.When I walk outside on a sunny cloudless day, I look up and see a beautiful blue sky. Then I become aware that this is not a canopy or a ceiling. I am actually looking light years into space. Looking through the blue, not at it. At night it is even more wondrous. You can look at the same sky that was blue, but now it has a billion twinkling stars. So many that no one has been able to name them all or even count them. They are God's creation!. All He had to do was speak, and they were. Then I think that I am observing all this from a platform called earth that is not anchored to anything. It is held in place only by God's will . It is a giant ball of dirt, one planet among who knows how many, and I, a very temporary, very insignificant speck on one ball of dirt, am not only recognized by the most powerful being in the universe. I am loved by Him, so much that He sacrificed His own son to save me.THAT is awesome! Who's next?Terry
[TruthTalk] Re:Clarification
From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> No Judy, I don't mean the acceptance of some scripture. I mean that even our reading and teaching of scripture is to some extent colored or influenced by the tradition in which we find ourselves at any given time. Some Baptists have a clearly stated position on the role of women in the home and in the church. This position is, to them, a totally accurate reading and understanding of Scripture. An opposing position can be found to be expressed in other churches. That's what I meant. jt: Thank you for the clarification Lance and yes I've been through some of this in my own pilgrimage and have waded through a lot of "stuff" so at this point in my walk I have to see it in scripture myself or it goes on the shelf. Checking the roots of a teaching or idea is good because the root will determine the fruit. PS I concur with your comments on the history of the Rapture. Blessings, Lance From: Judy Taylor From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Each evangelical tradition also has it's own "use" of Scripture (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox). One example of this would be a particular reading of Mt24 & 1Thess4 leading to a teaching on what some call the "Rapture". jt: The teaching of the Rapture began in the 1800's - so a believer who had just come to Christ with a Bible alone would not find it there. I believe it was a Margaret McDonald who had a vision which evolved to this teaching which was spread by Plymouth Brethren and some other sects. So Judy, I'd offer an AMEN to the intent of your quotation with the proviso that we acknowledge your meaning of this word to include our own tradition's reading of SOME Scripture. jt: I'm not sure I understand what you mean Lance. Are you saying that I have a tradition that is a mixture or a tradition that only accepts "some scripture?" What do you mean? This REALITY is evidenced on TT daily. Blessings Lance Do you perceive this to be a fair understanding of what you wrote? To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 28, 2004 07:59 Subject: [TruthTalk] Party Crashing Thank you Kevin, Your service to God and zeal for His truth is such a blessing. I found this quote yesterday and think it may be needed here. "It has escaped the understanding of many Christians that what they believe is more often shaped by the teachings and traditions of religious men than by Scripture. Yet the wisdom of the world is no substitute for God's Word, even if offered from the pulpit or in the Christian media. Jesus warns us in Matthew 24:12 that in the last days the love of many toward Him would grow cold because evil would increase in the world. There is little time to waste in the short span of life granted us by God. We must choose today whom we will serve."
[TruthTalk] M Scott Peck a Christian LOL
Now how could anyone in their right mind take what this man writes seriously? He is obviously confused and most definitely does not know the Lord. Claims to have been a Christian for 13yrs - with a nun as spiritual adviser? Says he was accosted by an evil spirit but identifies it as a "good evil spirit" Yeah right! "Hath God said?" This guy could sell snow cones in Alaska... reminds me of witches who claim there is black magic and white magic. "A doubleminded man is unstable in all his ways [] let not that man think that he shall receive anything of the Lord" Peck has no idea what sin is or what Christianity is for that matter so what spiritual insight of his could be ov value? It's all from the wrong kingdom. From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves," (Matthew 7:15). The following is a interview with M Scott Peck: "Door: It is interesting that you describe your writing as a calling. Is this a calling from God? "Peck: I hesitate using the word `God' in that simplistic kind of way. My books are not `channeled' materials "Door: There are a number of writers and others who are convinced that you are part of the New Age Movement. "Peck: Really? Well, we can come back to that subject if you'd like My spiritual director, who is a nun, says that God never calls you to do something that doesn't feel right in your heart. Jesus went to the cross, which wasn't something He felt like doing, but the cross felt much better than the only alternative which was to retire on His pension plan "Door: When we interviewed you last, you had become a Christian three years previously. Now that it has been 10 years, could you comment on how your own personal faith has changed over the decade? "Peck: I don't like the term `became a Christian.' ...I hope to God that I'm going to continue to be converted until I die and perhaps well after that, which is what I think purgatory is all about "Door: Why do we have this feeling of impending doom? "Peck: God knows when I'll ever write about this, so you might as well write about it. "Door: Uh - thanks. "Peck: I have had some dealings with evil spirits, but I have never given any thought to possibility of good spirits. One night while I was in the midst of my depression, my Dark Night of the Senses, I went to bed. I had not fallen asleep and this was not a dream. I was accosted by a spirit. "Door: A spirit? "Peck: ...Almost as instantly, I asked what kind of spirit this was and I immediately knew it was a good spirit rather than a bad spirit. But I also knew I could either confront this spirit or shake it off. I wondered what kind of good spirit it was. The answer came to me immediately. It was a spirit of mirth. "Door: A spirit of mirth? "Peck: That was when the battle began. Just because this seemed to be a spirit of mirth, how did I know for sure? If I let it in - "Door: - You mean like a possession or something? "Peck: Yes So I gave in to this spirit and I giggled myself to sleep. "Door: Since we are talking about the bizarre, we hear a lot of people - who act like they know what they're talking about - claiming that you are `New Age.' What are your feelings about the New Age Movement? "Peck: I am and I am not New Age. ...there are some things about the New Age Movement that are very godly, and some things that are potentially evil. "Door: What is it that you like about the New Age Movement? "Peck: I wouldn't use the word `like.' The New Age Movement is a reaction to the sins of the Christian Church, the sins of technology, and the excesses of science. "Door: What sins? "Peck: ...Computers. "Door: Computers? "Peck: ...These sins are very real. I think there is something potentially holy about the New Age movement because of their openness to new ideas The New Age Movement, in reaction to the sins of the Christian Church, moved to the East - to Oriental philosophy and theology - and attempted to throw all of Christian theology out," (Interview, May/June 1990, pp. 5-15). ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Bill, In later books Peck makes it clear that when he wrote The Road Less Traveled he was just about to come to know the Lord. He wasnt quite there yet, but very close. (Amazing how much wisdom he wrote at that point, before knowing Christ personally). I was just wondering if Pecks unconscious is the same as your spiritual instinct.. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wm. TaylorSent: Friday, March 26, 2004 8:50 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God in our unconscious "Then he goes on to explain that this is what we term the presence of the Holy Spirit." Izzy, I am not familiar enough with Peck to have much more than an elementary appr
[TruthTalk] Re:Clarification
No Judy, I don't mean the acceptance of some scripture. I mean that even our reading and teaching of scripture is to some extent colored or influenced by the tradition in which we find ourselves at any given time. Some Baptists have a clearly stated position on the role of women in the home and in the church. This position is, to them, a totally accurate reading and understanding of Scripture. An opposing position can be found to be expressed in other churches. That's what I meant. PS I concur with your comments on the history of the Rapture. Blessings, Lance From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 28, 2004 08:34 Subject: [TruthTalk] Re:Traditions of Men MAY include Scripture From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Each evangelical tradition also has it's own "use" of Scripture (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox). One example of this would be a particular reading of Mt24 & 1Thess4 leading to a teaching on what some call the "Rapture". jt: The teaching of the Rapture began in the 1800's - so a believer who had just come to Christ with a Bible alone would not find it there. I believe it was a Margaret McDonald who had a vision which evolved to this teaching which was spread by Plymouth Brethren and some other sects. So Judy, I'd offer an AMEN to the intent of your quotation with the proviso that we acknowledge your meaning of this word to include our own tradition's reading of SOME Scripture. jt: I'm not sure I understand what you mean Lance. Are you saying that I have a tradition that is a mixture or a tradition that only accepts "some scripture?" What do you mean? This REALITY is evidenced on TT daily. Blessings Lance Do you perceive this to be a fair understanding of what you wrote? To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 28, 2004 07:59 Subject: [TruthTalk] Party Crashing Thank you Kevin, Your service to God and zeal for His truth is such a blessing. I found this quote yesterday and think it may be needed here. "It has escaped the understanding of many Christians that what they believe is more often shaped by the teachings and traditions of religious men than by Scripture. Yet the wisdom of the world is no substitute for God's Word, even if offered from the pulpit or in the Christian media. Jesus warns us in Matthew 24:12 that in the last days the love of many toward Him would grow cold because evil would increase in the world. There is little time to waste in the short span of life granted us by God. We must choose today whom we will serve."
[TruthTalk] Re:Traditions of Men MAY include Scripture
From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Each evangelical tradition also has it's own "use" of Scripture (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox). One example of this would be a particular reading of Mt24 & 1Thess4 leading to a teaching on what some call the "Rapture". jt: The teaching of the Rapture began in the 1800's - so a believer who had just come to Christ with a Bible alone would not find it there. I believe it was a Margaret McDonald who had a vision which evolved to this teaching which was spread by Plymouth Brethren and some other sects. So Judy, I'd offer an AMEN to the intent of your quotation with the proviso that we acknowledge your meaning of this word to include our own tradition's reading of SOME Scripture. jt: I'm not sure I understand what you mean Lance. Are you saying that I have a tradition that is a mixture or a tradition that only accepts "some scripture?" What do you mean? This REALITY is evidenced on TT daily. Blessings Lance Do you perceive this to be a fair understanding of what you wrote? To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 28, 2004 07:59 Subject: [TruthTalk] Party Crashing Thank you Kevin, Your service to God and zeal for His truth is such a blessing. I found this quote yesterday and think it may be needed here. "It has escaped the understanding of many Christians that what they believe is more often shaped by the teachings and traditions of religious men than by Scripture. Yet the wisdom of the world is no substitute for God's Word, even if offered from the pulpit or in the Christian media. Jesus warns us in Matthew 24:12 that in the last days the love of many toward Him would grow cold because evil would increase in the world. There is little time to waste in the short span of life granted us by God. We must choose today whom we will serve."
[TruthTalk] Re:Traditions of Men MAY include Scripture
Each evangelical tradition also has it's own "use" of Scripture (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox). One example of this would be a particular reading of Mt24 & 1Thess4 leading to a teaching on what some call the "Rapture". So Judy, I'd offer an AMEN to the intent of your quotation with the proviso that we acknowledge your meaning of this word to include our own tradition's reading of SOME Scripture. This REALITY is evidenced on TT daily. Blessings Lance Do you perceive this to be a fair understanding of what you wrote? To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 28, 2004 07:59 Subject: [TruthTalk] Party Crashing Thank you Kevin, Your service to God and zeal for His truth is such a blessing. I found this quote yesterday and think it may be needed here. "It has escaped the understanding of many Christians that what they believe is more often shaped by the teachings and traditions of religious men than by Scripture. Yet the wisdom of the world is no substitute for God's Word, even if offered from the pulpit or in the Christian media. Jesus warns us in Matthew 24:12 that in the last days the love of many toward Him would grow cold because evil would increase in the world. There is little time to waste in the short span of life granted us by God. We must choose today whom we will serve." From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I hear a lot of praise for men around TT, Paloney, Peck. At least one of which professes of a spirit possesion. Prov 28:4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them. We are told to earnestly contend. Jude 1 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Paul spoke with "MUCH CONTENTION" 1 Thes 2:2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention. But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts. Paul refers to his entrance into Thessalonica in verse 1and his treatment in Philippi. Act 16:22 the multitude rose up together against them They had many stripes laid upon them. This was just a prelude to turning the whole city into an uproar Act 17:5 in Thessolonica. In Paul immediately set upon disputing again in Athens act 17:17 A VERY CONTENTIOUS fellow this Paul! Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I like you and DaveH too Blaine even though I don't agree with the structure you both serve Let me address the issue of contention for a moment. I'm sure you will agree that we are at different ends of the spectrum spiritually which in reality is opposite sides. There is a spirit of truth and a spirit of error and we can not both be right... so the situation does become contentious at times. I don't see any way around it other than leaving the list or playing the hypocrite. At least I give all of you equal time :) I don't believe any of us are there yet and I've learned some things myself... from interaction with the ppl on TT. judyt From: "Blaine Borrowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> As I said before, Judy often shows more true Christian spirit than most. She at least tries, huh? I like Judy, even though I have to admit she is, as Izzy said, "contentious!!" LOL From: Judy Taylor jt: I was not addressing you Izzy - this time you are interjecting yourself into a response I wrote to Blaine and part of your post was needful for clarification. I'm not angry with you so the animosity is one sided. I'm not being rude or mean but it is good for one to practice what they preach. judyt From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Once again, Judy, I would appreciate it if you would stop interjecting yourself into conversations I am having with other people. You are rudely interrupting at the party again. Surely you understand English, so please honor my request. Thank you again. Izzy On Behalf Of Judy TaylorEveryone has stuff that "just comes to them" - where it comes from is the question. This is why believers should have spiritual discernment. There are lots of spirits talking all the time. jt Blaine: This is very interesting Izzy. I have had similar experiences. I thought Mormons were the on
Re: [TruthTalk] Getting to know you.
David Miller wrote: Terry wrote: I picture the more educated among us as standing around in a gown and miter board with an armload of books, maybe some horn rimmed glasses thrown in. Uh, what's a miter board? Maybe it should be mortar board? One of those funny looking hats with a tassel. Terry wrote: ... what do you find awesome about your Lord? I find it awesome that the Lord is always right. I know, that sounds a little corny, but really, I mean, he is ALWAYS right. His wisdom is far beyond any of the most learned men. A simple, uneducated man can read the Holy Scriptures, walk in simple faith and confidence toward God, and receive more wisdom and insight than 1,000 professors who labor at understanding the secrets of the universe. I find that to be just awesome. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Party Crashing
Thank you Kevin, Your service to God and zeal for His truth is such a blessing. I found this quote yesterday and think it may be needed here. "It has escaped the understanding of many Christians that what they believe is more often shaped by the teachings and traditions of religious men than by Scripture. Yet the wisdom of the world is no substitute for God's Word, even if offered from the pulpit or in the Christian media. Jesus warns us in Matthew 24:12 that in the last days the love of many toward Him would grow cold because evil would increase in the world. There is little time to waste in the short span of life granted us by God. We must choose today whom we will serve." From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I hear a lot of praise for men around TT, Paloney, Peck. At least one of which professes of a spirit possesion. Prov 28:4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them. We are told to earnestly contend. Jude 1 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Paul spoke with "MUCH CONTENTION" 1 Thes 2:2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention. But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts. Paul refers to his entrance into Thessalonica in verse 1and his treatment in Philippi. Act 16:22 the multitude rose up together against them They had many stripes laid upon them. This was just a prelude to turning the whole city into an uproar Act 17:5 in Thessolonica. In Paul immediately set upon disputing again in Athens act 17:17 A VERY CONTENTIOUS fellow this Paul! Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I like you and DaveH too Blaine even though I don't agree with the structure you both serve Let me address the issue of contention for a moment. I'm sure you will agree that we are at different ends of the spectrum spiritually which in reality is opposite sides. There is a spirit of truth and a spirit of error and we can not both be right... so the situation does become contentious at times. I don't see any way around it other than leaving the list or playing the hypocrite. At least I give all of you equal time :) I don't believe any of us are there yet and I've learned some things myself... from interaction with the ppl on TT. judyt From: "Blaine Borrowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> As I said before, Judy often shows more true Christian spirit than most. She at least tries, huh? I like Judy, even though I have to admit she is, as Izzy said, "contentious!!" LOL From: Judy Taylor jt: I was not addressing you Izzy - this time you are interjecting yourself into a response I wrote to Blaine and part of your post was needful for clarification. I'm not angry with you so the animosity is one sided. I'm not being rude or mean but it is good for one to practice what they preach. judyt From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Once again, Judy, I would appreciate it if you would stop interjecting yourself into conversations I am having with other people. You are rudely interrupting at the party again. Surely you understand English, so please honor my request. Thank you again. Izzy On Behalf Of Judy TaylorEveryone has stuff that "just comes to them" - where it comes from is the question. This is why believers should have spiritual discernment. There are lots of spirits talking all the time. jt Blaine: This is very interesting Izzy. I have had similar experiences. I thought Mormons were the only ones who did this. LOL And how would you define relationship with the Lord? Occasionally, during my running daily conversations/mental mullings with the Lord as Im going through whatever work I am doing, I am startled by an awareness of Him distinctly answering my question. I know the answer came from Him, because it is a thought that I know did not originate with me. It is always a surprising thought because of this. This never ceases to amaze me. I think this is just one example of being in relationship with Him. He is really there. He really interacts with you. And you are aware of it. Awesome! Izzy Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
Re: [TruthTalk] Party Crashing
I hear a lot of praise for men around TT, Paloney, Peck. At least one of which professes of a spirit possesion. Prov 28:4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them. We are told to earnestly contend. Jude 1 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Paul spoke with "MUCH CONTENTION" 1 Thes 2:2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention. But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts. Paul refers to his entrance into Thessalonica in verse 1and his treatment in Philippi. Act 16:22 the multitude rose up together against them They had many stripes laid upon them. This was just a prelude to turning the whole city into an uproar Act 17:5 in Thessolonica. In Paul immediately set upon disputing again in Athens act 17:17 A VERY CONTENTIOUS fellow this Paul! Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I like you and DaveH too Blaine even though I don't agree with the structure you both serve Let me address the issue of contention for a moment. I'm sure you will agree that we are at different ends of the spectrum spiritually which in reality is opposite sides. There is a spirit of truth and a spirit of error and we can not both be right... so the situation does become contentious at times. I don't see any way around it other than leaving the list or playing the hypocrite. At least I give all of you equal time :) I don't believe any of us are there yet and I've learned some things myself... from interaction with the ppl on TT. judyt From: "Blaine Borrowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> As I said before, Judy often shows more true Christian spirit than most. She at least tries, huh? I like Judy, even though I have to admit she is, as Izzy said, "contentious!!" LOL From: Judy Taylor jt: I was not addressing you Izzy - this time you are interjecting yourself into a response I wrote to Blaine and part of your post was needful for clarification. I'm not angry with you so the animosity is one sided. I'm not being rude or mean but it is good for one to practice what they preach. judyt From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Once again, Judy, I would appreciate it if you would stop interjecting yourself into conversations I am having with other people. You are rudely interrupting at the party again. Surely you understand English, so please honor my request. Thank you again. Izzy On Behalf Of Judy TaylorEveryone has stuff that "just comes to them" - where it comes from is the question. This is why believers should have spiritual discernment. There are lots of spirits talking all the time. jt Blaine: This is very interesting Izzy. I have had similar experiences. I thought Mormons were the only ones who did this. LOL And how would you define relationship with the Lord? Occasionally, during my running daily conversations/mental mullings with the Lord as Im going through whatever work I am doing, I am startled by an awareness of Him distinctly answering my question. I know the answer came from Him, because it is a thought that I know did not originate with me. It is always a surprising thought because of this. This never ceases to amaze me. I think this is just one example of being in relationship with Him. He is really there. He really interacts with you. And you are aware of it. Awesome! Izzy Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
[TruthTalk] Prayer request.
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 3/27/2004 10:37:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine: I think TT is neither of the devil nor of God. It is nothing more nor less than the summation of its parts--individuals all coming from different backgrounds and seeking to reconcile differences. Some of us listen, others just expect to be listened to. Egos play a major role on TT, I believe. jt: Ego being an attribute of the unregenerate flesh nature - interesting... john: Exactly. I especially like the "reconcile differences" notion. Christ's only concern for his 20th century disciples (John 17) was for unity. Ours is a ministry of "reconciliation" as Paul says. jt: When Jesus spoke of unity and when Paul wrote of reconciliation they were both speaking of unifying around truth and the only way we are reconciled to God is to agree with Him by first accepting and then walking in His Truth. john: My mother-in-law is Mormon. She was born into that faith. She will always be there. She would be afraid to leave. Status quo gives her the sense of security that she needs. jt: I find it sad that you have no hope for a change in direction for her. john: BUT, we have grown very close. She loves Billy Graham and she loves the Lord. jt: A lot of ppl like Billy Graham but how can one love the Lord and ATST reject his Word? He said in his own words "If you love me you will do what I say" that's his definition of love. john: The really great thing about Jesus is that He is not a Baptist, Catholic, and et al. I once spoke of praying for you, Blaine. I still do that. And the prayer is this: that you truly appreciate this salvation by faith apart from being right about everything and that the filling of God's spirit be the kind of experience it was intended to be. jt: Are you saying that Blaine is a "saved" person John and that the Mormon experiences of "burning bosom" and their temple ceremonies are acceptable with God? No wonder the Mormon boys stay confused about what protestant Christianity represents. john: Anyway, some of your observation are equally as thoughtful as Issy's, BillT, Miller's, Lance, Terry and so on. I truly believe this is a great group. God bless and good night. John Smithson
[TruthTalk] Party Crashing
I like you and DaveH too Blaine even though I don't agree with the structure you both serve Let me address the issue of contention for a moment. I'm sure you will agree that we are at different ends of the spectrum spiritually which in reality is opposite sides. There is a spirit of truth and a spirit of error and we can not both be right... so the situation does become contentious at times. I don't see any way around it other than leaving the list or playing the hypocrite. At least I give all of you equal time :) I don't believe any of us are there yet and I've learned some things myself... from interaction with the ppl on TT. judyt From: "Blaine Borrowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> As I said before, Judy often shows more true Christian spirit than most. She at least tries, huh? I like Judy, even though I have to admit she is, as Izzy said, "contentious!!" LOL From: Judy Taylor jt: I was not addressing you Izzy - this time you are interjecting yourself into a response I wrote to Blaine and part of your post was needful for clarification. I'm not angry with you so the animosity is one sided. I'm not being rude or mean but it is good for one to practice what they preach. judyt From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Once again, Judy, I would appreciate it if you would stop interjecting yourself into conversations I am having with other people. You are rudely interrupting at the party again. Surely you understand English, so please honor my request. Thank you again. Izzy On Behalf Of Judy TaylorEveryone has stuff that "just comes to them" - where it comes from is the question. This is why believers should have spiritual discernment. There are lots of spirits talking all the time. jt Blaine: This is very interesting Izzy. I have had similar experiences. I thought Mormons were the only ones who did this. LOL And how would you define relationship with the Lord? Occasionally, during my running daily conversations/mental mullings with the Lord as Im going through whatever work I am doing, I am startled by an awareness of Him distinctly answering my question. I know the answer came from Him, because it is a thought that I know did not originate with me. It is always a surprising thought because of this. This never ceases to amaze me. I think this is just one example of being in relationship with Him. He is really there. He really interacts with you. And you are aware of it. Awesome! Izzy
