Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points
Hi Björnke, On Jul 01 2005, at 01:29, Dennis Brown wrote: I would be MORE than happy to segregate my posts into the two different categories. There is a lot of traffic on this list, it would make sense to divide up the traffic into these two areas. There is an Improve Rev list, but only rich people what a sad, poor and cheap joke :-/ are allowed to participate there (aka Enterprise owners). That is RunRev's decision, not mine of course... sorry Bjoernke Regards Klaus Major [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.major-k.de ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points
Dennis, You are right! I am trying to turn it down four notches. Thanks for the calm post. I just threw your comments on top of a rather large pile (IMO) and after reading your post again, I see that that was not fair to do. Thanks for being on this list and offering your professional and calm support. Tom On Jun 30, 2005, at 10:02 PM, Dennis Brown wrote: Please turn your sensitivity knob down two notches and stop stirring up the pot. My comments were not meant to insult or be rude to anyone, and in rereading them, I can't see that they are, but you have labeled them so. You are actually inciting more discussion and rudeness than you are preventing. I am only trying to provide helpful suggestions for how to separate one generic type of discussion from another for the benefit of the people who come to this list to get the very helpful and appreciated advice of the old hands. Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.9, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev 2.6 Advanced Media Group Eagle Works Art Sculpture Semantic Compaction Systems Prentke Romich Company Prentke Romich International SCIconics, LLC Artist Thomas J McGrath III [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points
Hello everyone, I know that I have not yet offered much scripting help etc. to others on this list since I do not feel I know Revolution well enough yet to offer good suggestions, but I would like to comment on a few things that I have seen posted on this list recently in several threads. I have attempted to attribute list posted comments correctly and I apologize in advance if I have made any errors. I also apologize in advance if anyone believes their comments are being incorrectly taken out of context. Thomas McGrath III Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:26:14 -0400: I do mind about how Rev progresses and grows and I for one don't want it influenced by these other languages or programs at all. Michael Young (MY): I thought cross pollination of programs, languages, etc. is intended to advance the computer/technology/etc. state of the art. Granted sometimes people try to combine technologies and ideas that do not belong together, but I do not see anything wrong with the effort. Judy Perry Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:25:48 -0700 (PDT): No DOT NOTATION! It SUX... It's hard.to.read.this:total.utter:crap! MY: I personally find the dot notation easy to read and sometimes even find it easier to read than x-talk syntax that I am still learning. By your acting as self appointed defender of the x-talk/Revolution faith, I personally did not find your SHOUTING to be very professional/pleasant/etc. Scott Kane Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:47:55 +1000: I guarantee if people using Rev went to the Borland newsgroups and demanded x-code there's be a whole bunch of laughter - and so it should be with others coming to Rev. MY: Very true. The current Revolution list does not seem to be a productive place to request language syntax, etc. changes. In the last few years I have followed this Revolution list such requests seem to be regularly put down by old x-talk hands. May be posters should be directed to a more appropriate list for such discussions, presuming one exists. Richard Gaskin Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:53:49 -0700: A lot of people from a wide range of programming backgrounds have learned Rev easily with the help of the folks here. MY: Very true, however I find that the old x-talk hands on this list expect all new Rev users to be programming neophytes. Dan [Shafer] coined the term Inventive User to describe people who use programs like Revolution to create solutions to their own problems without necessarily becoming professional programmers in the process. ( http://www.altuit.com/webs/altuit/RevConWest/Sponsors.htm ) The problem is some new Revolution users are professional programmers and just as I am sure that many list members would consider themselves professional programmers. It is not appropriate for old x-talk hands to expect professional programmers to forget all programming techniques/environments/languages/etc they have learned, just as it is not appropriate for professional programmers new to Revolution to expect language syntax changes to be the only thing that changes when they move to Revolution and they even want to use their old language syntax in Revolution. Scott Kane Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:20:09 +1000: The Rev community (the developers using Rev) don't take them selves as seriously as other languages - by that I mean they aren't jumping on newbie's and telling them to RTFM. Common with Delphi, C++, Visual Basic etc. MY: Very true. I have been following [EMAIL PROTECTED] in the last few weeks. That list is very rough and tumble compared with this Revolution list. Bob Warren Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:30:07 -0300: I like it [x-talk or Rev, I am not quite sure what it is] too. In fact, I think that Rev has so much in its favour - its philosophy, the Transcript language, even the IDE and (yes!) the script editor - that I feel outraged that anyone can treat it with so little respect that they continue to let it be riddled with bugs. I have been involved with computers since the early 1960s, so perhaps I am a little out of fashion in my attitude towards bugs. In my time, they were things to be exterminated urgently. I never thought of keeping them as pets, adoring them or even selling them! MY: Yes. Revolution bugs need to go away. Bugs cause unexpected behavior that will turn off potential new Revolution/Dreamcard customers. Besides I have paid a lot of money for a product that I expect to simply work. Bob Warren Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:13:10 -0300: I share your indignation at some of the scandalous generalizations that have been made on this List, and I think it is a pity. But the other side of the coin is that comparisons with other languages is, or should be, natural and normal, and I see no good reason for creating taboos in this respect. A worse situation would be if Revolution became a closed community, not admitting foreign influences, criticisms, comparisons or suggestions. We all know what madness this leads to. MY: I agree completely. Mark Smith
Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points
Michael: Interesting post: thanks! Jon M Young wrote: Hello everyone, I know that I have not yet offered much scripting help etc. to others on this list since I do not feel I know Revolution well enough yet to offer good suggestions, but I would like to comment on a few things that I have seen posted on this list recently in several threads. I have attempted to attribute list posted comments correctly and I apologize in advance if I have made any errors. I also apologize in advance if anyone believes their comments are being incorrectly taken out of context. huge snip Sincerely, Michael Young Currently Inventive User of Runtime Revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points
I did not find much in this or any other posts on this subject very helpful compared to the volume of email taken up --except for one point: Helping with scripting questions is what this list should be about. Not everyone wants to debate the shortcomings --some just want advice on how to overcome their problems today. Where is the other list to discuss intelligently suggestions about improving the language? I would be MORE than happy to segregate my posts into the two different categories. There is a lot of traffic on this list, it would make sense to divide up the traffic into these two areas. Dennis On Jun 30, 2005, at 6:54 PM, Jon wrote: Michael: Interesting post: thanks! Jon M Young wrote: Hello everyone, I know that I have not yet offered much scripting help etc. to others on this list since I do not feel I know Revolution well enough yet to offer good suggestions, but I would like to comment on a few things that I have seen posted on this list recently in several threads. I have attempted to attribute list posted comments correctly and I apologize in advance if I have made any errors. I also apologize in advance if anyone believes their comments are being incorrectly taken out of context. huge snip Sincerely, Michael Young Currently Inventive User of Runtime Revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points
On Jul 01 2005, at 01:29, Dennis Brown wrote: I would be MORE than happy to segregate my posts into the two different categories. There is a lot of traffic on this list, it would make sense to divide up the traffic into these two areas. There is an Improve Rev list, but only rich people are allowed to participate there (aka Enterprise owners). That is RunRev's decision, not mine of course... sorry Bjoernke -- http://contest.wecode.org Now running: the first ChatRev coding contest! sponsors: Altuit Andre Garzia Fourth World Karl Becker Runtime Revolution TidBITS in cooperation with eHUG ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points
MY, There is the improve list at Revolution where requests and improvements are made. I believe you need to be an Enterprise Owner to sign up for that list. And as far as your comments on everyone else's comments: Most sounded reasonable. I agreed with a few and disagreed with others. But the issue I brought up remains. That is if someone is frustrated or disagrees with an aspect of Rev or certain bugs in Rev that does not give them cart blanc to insult the users on this list. Throwing around rude comments to the very helpful and needed people from the list does not help and is not except-able. Tom On Jun 30, 2005, at 6:04 PM, M Young wrote: MY: Very true. The current Revolution list does not seem to be a productive place to request language syntax, etc. changes. In the last few years I have followed this Revolution list such requests seem to be regularly put down by old x-talk hands. May be posters should be directed to a more appropriate list for such discussions, presuming one exists. Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.9, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev 2.6 Advanced Media Group Eagle Works Art Sculpture Semantic Compaction Systems Prentke Romich Company Prentke Romich International SCIconics, LLC Artist Thomas J McGrath III [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points
There is the improve list at Revolution. Tom On Jun 30, 2005, at 7:29 PM, Dennis Brown wrote: I did not find much in this or any other posts on this subject very helpful compared to the volume of email taken up --except for one point: Helping with scripting questions is what this list should be about. Not everyone wants to debate the shortcomings --some just want advice on how to overcome their problems today. Where is the other list to discuss intelligently suggestions about improving the language? I would be MORE than happy to segregate my posts into the two different categories. There is a lot of traffic on this list, it would make sense to divide up the traffic into these two areas. Dennis On Jun 30, 2005, at 6:54 PM, Jon wrote: Michael: Interesting post: thanks! Jon M Young wrote: Hello everyone, I know that I have not yet offered much scripting help etc. to others on this list since I do not feel I know Revolution well enough yet to offer good suggestions, but I would like to comment on a few things that I have seen posted on this list recently in several threads. I have attempted to attribute list posted comments correctly and I apologize in advance if I have made any errors. I also apologize in advance if anyone believes their comments are being incorrectly taken out of context. huge snip Sincerely, Michael Young Currently Inventive User of Runtime Revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.9, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev 2.6 Advanced Media Group Eagle Works Art Sculpture Semantic Compaction Systems Prentke Romich Company Prentke Romich International SCIconics, LLC Artist Thomas J McGrath III [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points
I am on the Improve list and I am very very very very very very far from rich. That is rather rude of you to say. Tom On Jun 30, 2005, at 7:35 PM, Björnke von Gierke wrote: On Jul 01 2005, at 01:29, Dennis Brown wrote: I would be MORE than happy to segregate my posts into the two different categories. There is a lot of traffic on this list, it would make sense to divide up the traffic into these two areas. There is an Improve Rev list, but only rich people are allowed to participate there (aka Enterprise owners). That is RunRev's decision, not mine of course... sorry Bjoernke -- http://contest.wecode.org Now running: the first ChatRev coding contest! sponsors: Altuit Andre Garzia Fourth World Karl Becker Runtime Revolution TidBITS in cooperation with eHUG ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.9, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev 2.6 Advanced Media Group Eagle Works Art Sculpture Semantic Compaction Systems Prentke Romich Company Prentke Romich International SCIconics, LLC Artist Thomas J McGrath III [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points
Björnke von Gierke wrote: On Jul 01 2005, at 01:29, Dennis Brown wrote: I would be MORE than happy to segregate my posts into the two different categories. There is a lot of traffic on this list, it would make sense to divide up the traffic into these two areas. There is an Improve Rev list, but only rich people are allowed to participate there (aka Enterprise owners). That is RunRev's decision, not mine of course... I'm far from rich, just an early adopter from a time when $995 was the only price offered for getting on this bandwagon. Since it paid for itself in the first quarter afterward, I've never regretted the purchase. Most of my clients are from the era as well and they've never questioned the value of that purchase, though none of them own vacation homes on exotic New Zealand beaches (well, one does, but he lives there). I believe the philosophy of limiting the improve-rev list to Enterprise users is pretty much what's been expressed by other list members here: there's a wide gulf between productive exchange that results in specific recommendations, and simple whingeing. The presumption is that professionals whose livelihood is dependent on the product will demonstrate a stronger focus on productive outcomes. Reading the posts here it seems no one would particularly mind recommendations for product improvement delivered here with productive professionalism. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points
Bjoernke, Thanks for pointing out that there is a list for those who have bought the high end Professional license to discuss improvements. That seems like a reasonable thing to have. At least that explains why I have not been able to elicit much intelligent conversation from the old hands on my improvement suggestions --they are off having a private pow-wow about them, or have already discussed them in the past. However, that does little to divide up the traffic on this list and allow discussion for those inventive users who have no need to spend twice as much for their personal programming tool as their computer. We can always put requests into BZ, but I believe an intelligent discussion should proceed that action, and that only those who are interested should be subjected to the additional traffic. Perhaps it is time for an improve-list for the rest of us. The discussions will happen anyway --if not there, then here. Dennis On Jun 30, 2005, at 7:35 PM, Björnke von Gierke wrote: On Jul 01 2005, at 01:29, Dennis Brown wrote: I would be MORE than happy to segregate my posts into the two different categories. There is a lot of traffic on this list, it would make sense to divide up the traffic into these two areas. There is an Improve Rev list, but only rich people are allowed to participate there (aka Enterprise owners). That is RunRev's decision, not mine of course... sorry Bjoernke -- http://contest.wecode.org Now running: the first ChatRev coding contest! sponsors: Altuit Andre Garzia Fourth World Karl Becker Runtime Revolution TidBITS in cooperation with eHUG ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points
The problem is that the discussions turned into insults and rude comments and they are still going on. The new traffic on the list is great and the help that this list offers is beyond any list I have ever seen. But when an intelligent discussion falls into rude comments being thrown at the old timers, old hands, rich people who are too busy having their own pow wow or are used to it and expect others to get used to it or what ever other snide comments people can come up with then it is no longer a productive discussion and is wasting an awful lot of list space which is normally used in helping people. So there are two choices, continue on in unproductive mud slinging and snide rude remarks and insults or let this dead horse lie and get back to the business at hand. Bugzilla does work ( if your bug is not voted on may others find different bugs more important to them) and Rev does pay attention to both this list and the improve list and BZ. The comments from Mark recently show just that. There are all kinds of bug fixes going on as we speak and Rev has committed to an increase in those bug fixes and bug fix releases. Tom On Jun 30, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Dennis Brown wrote: We can always put requests into BZ, but I believe an intelligent discussion should proceed that action, and that only those who are interested should be subjected to the additional traffic. Perhaps it is time for an improve-list for the rest of us. The discussions will happen anyway --if not there, then here. Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.9, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev 2.6 Advanced Media Group Eagle Works Art Sculpture Semantic Compaction Systems Prentke Romich Company Prentke Romich International SCIconics, LLC Artist Thomas J McGrath III [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points
My point was that people on this list - not RunRev themselves - are both more inclined and more able to offer workarounds where necessary than they could possibly be to fix bugs. That is obviously RunRevs job. I think some of the somewhat heated tenor of some posts recently has been partly due to one or two professional programmers who are new to Rev venting their newbie frustrations by suggesting that Rev couldn't be used for serious work, when there are pros here who can prove that assertion quite wrong, and partly due to the fact that the list is overwhelmingly populated by users of Rev rather than the creators of Rev, therefore, a complaining attitude is inappropriate. Email customer service with complaints, ask for practical help on the list. And RTFM :) Mark Smith On 30 Jun 2005, at 23:04, M Young wrote: Mark Smith Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:22:37 +0100: I don't think anyone has really suggested that you shouldn't mind. But it's the nature of this list for people to offer workarounds and show examples of how they deal with things. For what it's worth, I agree that the script editor is buggy in it's formatting, but not so much that you can't work. MY: It bothers when a tool that costs a lot of money is buggy. I want the toaster of software development -- just plug it in and it works. I see no reason for me to need workarounds. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points
Thomas, Please turn your sensitivity knob down two notches and stop stirring up the pot. My comments were not meant to insult or be rude to anyone, and in rereading them, I can't see that they are, but you have labeled them so. You are actually inciting more discussion and rudeness than you are preventing. I am only trying to provide helpful suggestions for how to separate one generic type of discussion from another for the benefit of the people who come to this list to get the very helpful and appreciated advice of the old hands. Dwelling on an individuals opinion and reading into it something that may or may not have been intended as disrespectful has promoted more controversy than it warrants. My delete key has been overly active on this thread already --I like to keep the most helpful messages for future reference in my mail folder after I have filtered out the irrelevant ones to improve future searches. Extraneous BZ improvement suggestions that are not well thought out, or could be handled in some other reasonable way are a waste of RunRev's limited resources to sort through and make responses. Intelligent discussion in a list with interested users is a useful way of making the best suggestions. As I said, I think it is reasonable for the high end Professional license purchasers to discuss improvements in their own exclusive thread, and having a thread for that, are less inclined to bring that thread into this thread. Just a statement of fact, but using less words, because of my slow typing skills. So there are two choices, continue on in unproductive mud slinging and snide rude remarks and insults or let this dead horse lie and get back to the business at hand. Don't feel you have to reply to opinion portion of this message, I am content to leave it at that. Dennis On Jun 30, 2005, at 8:36 PM, Thomas McGrath III wrote: The problem is that the discussions turned into insults and rude comments and they are still going on. The new traffic on the list is great and the help that this list offers is beyond any list I have ever seen. But when an intelligent discussion falls into rude comments being thrown at the old timers, old hands, rich people who are too busy having their own pow wow or are used to it and expect others to get used to it or what ever other snide comments people can come up with then it is no longer a productive discussion and is wasting an awful lot of list space which is normally used in helping people. So there are two choices, continue on in unproductive mud slinging and snide rude remarks and insults or let this dead horse lie and get back to the business at hand. Bugzilla does work ( if your bug is not voted on may others find different bugs more important to them) and Rev does pay attention to both this list and the improve list and BZ. The comments from Mark recently show just that. There are all kinds of bug fixes going on as we speak and Rev has committed to an increase in those bug fixes and bug fix releases. Tom On Jun 30, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Dennis Brown wrote: We can always put requests into BZ, but I believe an intelligent discussion should proceed that action, and that only those who are interested should be subjected to the additional traffic. Perhaps it is time for an improve-list for the rest of us. The discussions will happen anyway --if not there, then here. Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.9, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev 2.6 Advanced Media Group Eagle Works Art Sculpture Semantic Compaction Systems Prentke Romich Company Prentke Romich International SCIconics, LLC Artist Thomas J McGrath III [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points
M Young wrote: Richard Gaskin Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:53:49 -0700: A lot of people from a wide range of programming backgrounds have learned Rev easily with the help of the folks here. MY: Very true, however I find that the old x-talk hands on this list expect all new Rev users to be programming neophytes. Dan [Shafer] coined the term Inventive User to describe people who use programs like Revolution to create solutions to their own problems without necessarily becoming professional programmers in the process. ( http://www.altuit.com/webs/altuit/RevConWest/Sponsors.htm ) Those are someone else's words, not mine. The low-hanging fruit of refugees from other xTalks has pretty much been picked long ago. If Rev is to grow it will come from two categories: - The inventive users Dan talks about, tinkerers by nature who want to experience the joy of building useful things for themselves and others. - Professional developers, who by virtue of being developers already have a current favorite language. This makes for a difficult challenge in documenting Rev: it must appeal to those with no previous programming experience at all, and must also appeal to those for whom Rev is a second (or third or fourth) language. Every language has its indiosynchracies, but since Transcript is a proprietary language this multiplies the above documentation challenges by an order of magnitude. There's a team at RunRev working on the docs year 'round, and they tend to get better with each release. Dropping a note into Bugzilla about errors and ommissions helps guide that process, and the folks at RR definitely read this list. There are some orientation materials for programmers familiar with languages like C++ and Java -- worth at least a skim: http://support.runrev.com/resources/c_java.php For everything else there's experimentation and this list. You'll never hear me hold experienced programmers in disdain; on the contrary I feel their input is valuable in helping the language grow and the product's marketing expend its reach. Richard Gaskin Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:44:22 -0700: In its most basic form, a Rev script editor is just a field in a stack. The field is loaded with the script in response to the editScript message (trappable in a frontScript if you want to get the message before the Rev editor does), and the script is just a property saved to the object with the save command (set the script of obj to script). It's not all that hard to make a place to type if that's all you need. Or you can use Constellation. Or BBEdit. Or the MC IDE. Or. MY: Is the information on how to swap out editors, capture editScript message, and etc. obvious to someone new to programming or coming from another programming environment? I could not find how to swap out the editor in the Revolution application documentation by using Search for: in Topics, Dictionary or Objects. All true, but try to be a bit forgiving: as another reader pointed out, for all the activity on this list it's hard to find posts that regard Rev's auto-formatting as a bad thing. Yes, there are ways to write your own editor, and even your own IDE, but those usually aren't topics newcomers start with. :) Patience, grasshopper. :) Other points: 1. All Runtime Revolution owners, investors, contractors, subcontractors, etc., i.e. anyone who financially benefits from the sale of Runtime Revolution products, should somehow acknowledge it in their list signature line, since not all new users to the list know who is making money on the deal. For example, one unnamed poster does not acknowledge in their signature line a Runtime Revolution affiliation that is really quite important for others to know. In external forums where advocacy may be an issue, I would agree in principle. And as an individual I like sig lines that tell me a bit about where a person's coming from (though I prefer those that adhere to the six-lines-or-less convention). But here in this Revolution list I don't think it's critical. You can pretty much assume everyone here is some form of stakeholder, just as you would on any other product's list: casual users, professional developers, contractors and employees alike all benefit from Rev's growth, and just about all of them will play an advocacy role at one time or another. That's just what fans do. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Endless ranting and rude insults
Dear Tom, With respect, might I suggest that you are ranting about the ranting? I feel a little responsible because I started the thread that heated up the discussion. Also, I was the first to mention 'another language' (VB). But as far as I remember, nobody was doing anything other than discussing the style of the script editor and how perhaps it could be made more practical. To be fair, I don't remember anyone running down Rev as a whole, or even criticising the IDE. I share your indignation at some of the scandalous generalizations that have been made on this List, and I think it is a pity. But the other side of the coin is that comparisons with other languages is, or should be, natural and normal, and I see no good reason for creating taboos in this respect. A worse situation would be if Revolution became a closed community, not admitting foreign influences, criticisms, comparisons or suggestions. We all know what madness this leads to. Regards, Bob ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Endless ranting and rude insults
function endlessRanting revUserAction switch revUserAction case Whining put 20 into minutesWasted put 0 into amountLearned put 0 into numFriendsMade break case Ranting put 10 into minutesWasted put 0 into amountLearned put 0 into numFriendsMade break case Rude put 20 into minutesWasted put 0 into amountLearned put -10 into numFriendsMade break default put random(100) into amountLearned put random(the number of lines in revUserBase) into numFriendsMade put 0 into minutesWasted break end switch return minutesWasted,amountLearned,numFriendsMade end endlessRanting ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Endless ranting and rude insults
I for one am getting very annoyed at the constant ranting and raving lately and especially the snide and rude remarks. I try to assume since there are many non-english speaking people or ones with whom english is not their first language on the list that sometimes it might just sound rude but not really be rude because of the language translations. But there are a couple of people that have been just plain rude. Insulting the whole list and accusations that 'real programmers would never work this way or I am used to decent tools etc. I am also getting fed up with the references to better programs and or languages like Pascal, FORTRAN, VB, Delphi, Java, or Word. If they are so great then I must ask Why are these people here? , Why not just go back to these 'superior' products/languages? I am trying to learn Transcript and could care less about these other languages. I am trying to become proficient with Transcript not with VB or Delphi. I do mind about how Rev progresses and grows and I for one don't want it influenced by these other languages or programs at all. Instead of saying that we all should change because these people don't like it or are not used to it, I suggest rather that these people learn to adapt to this far superior way of 'simple' coding style instead of wasting so much list space with all this nonsense. Now maybe I am just having a bad day and maybe not, but I think some of this is going too far. Tom Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.8, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev 2.5 Advanced Media Group Thomas J McGrath III [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Endless ranting and rude insults
I miss Ben. At least he knew that he was rude. Tom On Jun 29, 2005, at 12:26 AM, Thomas McGrath III wrote: I for one am getting very annoyed at the constant ranting and raving lately and especially the snide and rude remarks. I try to assume since there are many non-english speaking people or ones with whom english is not their first language on the list that sometimes it might just sound rude but not really be rude because of the language translations. But there are a couple of people that have been just plain rude. Insulting the whole list and accusations that 'real programmers would never work this way or I am used to decent tools etc. I am also getting fed up with the references to better programs and or languages like Pascal, FORTRAN, VB, Delphi, Java, or Word. If they are so great then I must ask Why are these people here? , Why not just go back to these 'superior' products/languages? I am trying to learn Transcript and could care less about these other languages. I am trying to become proficient with Transcript not with VB or Delphi. I do mind about how Rev progresses and grows and I for one don't want it influenced by these other languages or programs at all. Instead of saying that we all should change because these people don't like it or are not used to it, I suggest rather that these people learn to adapt to this far superior way of 'simple' coding style instead of wasting so much list space with all this nonsense. Now maybe I am just having a bad day and maybe not, but I think some of this is going too far. Tom Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.8, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev 2.5 Advanced Media Group Thomas J McGrath III [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution Thomas J. McGrath III SCS 1000 Killarney Dr. Pittsburgh, PA 15234 412-885-8541 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Endless ranting and rude insults
Thomas, Now maybe I am just having a bad day and maybe not, but I think some of this is going too far. I agree with you. I'm evaluating Rev (and am very pleased so far) and am coming from a Delphi background (since version 1 beta) as well as C++, Clipper etc. I'd much rather be reading messages that talk about issues people have (i.e. trying to find out how Rev does it) or some examples of cool stacks (as some people are posting) rather than read about somebodies refusal to do things the Rev way. I guarantee if people using Rev went to the Borland newsgroups and demanded x-code there's be a whole bunch of laughter - and so it should be with others coming to Rev. Rev developers are very tolerant of this kind of thing and I wouldn't blame them if they were less so. Kind Regards, Scott Kane ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Endless ranting and rude insults
Thomas McGrath III wrote: I for one am getting very annoyed at the constant ranting and raving lately and especially the snide and rude remarks. I try to assume since there are many non-english speaking people or ones with whom english is not their first language on the list that sometimes it might just sound rude but not really be rude because of the language translations. But there are a couple of people that have been just plain rude. Insulting the whole list and accusations that 'real programmers would never work this way or I am used to decent tools etc. ... Now maybe I am just having a bad day and maybe not, but I think some of this is going too far. Yeah, written like a typical person who doesn't program in Assembler. ;) Thanks for the reminder of basic manners. A lot of people from a wide range of programming backgrounds have learned Rev easily with the help of the folks here. But pissing in someone's Wheaties rarely engenders warm fuzzy feelings of helpfulness. Now if you'll excuse me I'm due at a cocktail party where I'm looking forward to spend the evening insulting the hostess and bitching about the hors d'oeuvres -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Endless ranting and rude insults
Richard, Yeah, I'm laughing now, and I never complain about my food at restaurants since I have heard too many bad stories of what happens to that food before it gets back to me. Thanks for the light hearted take on this. I'm off to bed since the meds don't seem to be working at all. Yours, Tom On Jun 29, 2005, at 12:53 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Thomas McGrath III wrote: I for one am getting very annoyed at the constant ranting and raving lately and especially the snide and rude remarks. I try to assume since there are many non-english speaking people or ones with whom english is not their first language on the list that sometimes it might just sound rude but not really be rude because of the language translations. But there are a couple of people that have been just plain rude. Insulting the whole list and accusations that 'real programmers would never work this way or I am used to decent tools etc. ... Now maybe I am just having a bad day and maybe not, but I think some of this is going too far. Yeah, written like a typical person who doesn't program in Assembler. ;) Thanks for the reminder of basic manners. A lot of people from a wide range of programming backgrounds have learned Rev easily with the help of the folks here. But pissing in someone's Wheaties rarely engenders warm fuzzy feelings of helpfulness. Now if you'll excuse me I'm due at a cocktail party where I'm looking forward to spend the evening insulting the hostess and bitching about the hors d'oeuvres -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution Thomas J. McGrath III SCS 1000 Killarney Dr. Pittsburgh, PA 15234 412-885-8541 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Endless ranting and rude insults
Scott, I too would much rather hear about overcoming issues and creative ways of getting things accomplished. I love the fact that people share their hard won victories and share the stacks so I can really learn from them. What a great list to be a part of. Thanks also for pointing out the positive side of what you and I get from this list. In the end I always seem to get more than I give. Lately my hopes have been to use Rev to pursue my dream of being independent. I would like to get out from under the company I work for although I do enjoy a lot of the work I do for them. The problem is that it is for them. They get rich, I make a living. I would love to use Rev to turn that around. This list has been a driving force in that area. Yours, Tom On Jun 29, 2005, at 12:47 AM, Scott Kane wrote: Thomas, Now maybe I am just having a bad day and maybe not, but I think some of this is going too far. I agree with you. I'm evaluating Rev (and am very pleased so far) and am coming from a Delphi background (since version 1 beta) as well as C++, Clipper etc. I'd much rather be reading messages that talk about issues people have (i.e. trying to find out how Rev does it) or some examples of cool stacks (as some people are posting) rather than read about somebodies refusal to do things the Rev way. I guarantee if people using Rev went to the Borland newsgroups and demanded x-code there's be a whole bunch of laughter - and so it should be with others coming to Rev. Rev developers are very tolerant of this kind of thing and I wouldn't blame them if they were less so. Kind Regards, Scott Kane ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.8, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev 2.5 Advanced Media Group Thomas J McGrath III [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Endless ranting and rude insults
I too would much rather hear about overcoming issues and creative ways of getting things accomplished. I love the fact that people share their hard won victories and share the stacks so I can really learn from them. What a great list to be a part of. I agree. The Rev community (the developers using Rev) don't take them selves as seriously as other languages - by that I mean they aren't jumping on newbie's and telling them to RTFM. Common with Delphi, C++, Visual Basic etc. Thanks also for pointing out the positive side of what you and I get from this list. In the end I always seem to get more than I give. *When* I get the database side if things working the way I want I intend to post the basics for people to use. I am yet to see a big database project in Rev (though I would love to), so I hope to pay back what I've learned by sharing. Could take a while though... :-) Lately my hopes have been to use Rev to pursue my dream of being independent. I would like to get out from under the company I work for although I do enjoy a lot of the work I do for them. The problem is that it is for them. They get rich, I make a living. I would love to use Rev to turn that around. This list has been a driving force in that area. That's an admirable goal. I write software for a living (working for myself) for just on ten years now (worked for ICL and Fujisu as a programmer before that) and intend to reach the next level which is cross-platform development. I'm keen to see Rev achieve that for me. :-) Scott Kane ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Endless ranting and rude insults
Tom, I couldn't agree more! Judy No DOT NOTATION! It SUX... It's hard.to.read.this:total.utter:crap! ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Endless ranting and rude insults
Scott, I will look forward to seeing that stack. If it does take a while, at least I know I'll still be here. Also, ten years seems a good bit of time to be doing this for yourself. I also am keen on the crossplatform prospects. Especially after years of waiting for Supercard to fulfill thier promise, which they never quite did. All the best of luck to you, Tom On Jun 29, 2005, at 1:20 AM, Scott Kane wrote: I too would much rather hear about overcoming issues and creative ways of getting things accomplished. I love the fact that people share their hard won victories and share the stacks so I can really learn from them. What a great list to be a part of. I agree. The Rev community (the developers using Rev) don't take them selves as seriously as other languages - by that I mean they aren't jumping on newbie's and telling them to RTFM. Common with Delphi, C++, Visual Basic etc. Thanks also for pointing out the positive side of what you and I get from this list. In the end I always seem to get more than I give. *When* I get the database side if things working the way I want I intend to post the basics for people to use. I am yet to see a big database project in Rev (though I would love to), so I hope to pay back what I've learned by sharing. Could take a while though... :-) Lately my hopes have been to use Rev to pursue my dream of being independent. I would like to get out from under the company I work for although I do enjoy a lot of the work I do for them. The problem is that it is for them. They get rich, I make a living. I would love to use Rev to turn that around. This list has been a driving force in that area. That's an admirable goal. I write software for a living (working for myself) for just on ten years now (worked for ICL and Fujisu as a programmer before that) and intend to reach the next level which is cross-platform development. I'm keen to see Rev achieve that for me. :-) Scott Kane ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution Kind Regards, Tom Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.9, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev 2.6 Advanced Media Group Eagle Works Sculpture Semantic Compaction Systems SCIconics, LLC Artist Thomas J McGrath III [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Endless ranting and rude insults
Judy, LOL Thanks Tom On Jun 29, 2005, at 1:25 AM, Judy Perry wrote: No DOT NOTATION! It SUX... It's hard.to.read.this:total.utter:crap! Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.9, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev 2.6 Advanced Media Group Eagle Works Sculpture Semantic Compaction Systems SCIconics, LLC Artist Thomas J McGrath III [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Endless ranting and rude insults
G'day Tom, I will look forward to seeing that stack. If it does take a while, at least I know I'll still be here. I'm still experimenting - but I think I've come up with a solution (for my needs) using Rev stacks as the dB. Also, ten years seems a good bit of time to be doing this for yourself. I also am keen on the crossplatform prospects. Especially after years of waiting for Supercard to fulfill thier promise, which they never quite did. It was a hard won battle. I started out consulting but ditched that when I discovered a market for a product I wrote - zoos specifically (and hobbyist keepers). All the best of luck to you, And to you too. :-) Scott ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
