Re: (OT) Re: Struts vs .NET???
John Henry Xu wrote: Now I can focus on my job and be more productive by not having to write getters and setters manually. Only when I wrote million line codes I realized how insane to write something machine can produce perfectly to you. The choice of a methodology like Model Driven development is totally independent with the framework you use. I use struts but never write a single form or action for search or CRUD operations. Just my 0.2. Manos - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts vs .NET???
Hi, I jump in the middle of this debate (religion war ?). I dont want to add my own opinion... who care ? But as many pragmatic developper we need to follow the requirements of our customers, sometimes .Net, java (struts, jsf,...), VB... So one of our big challenge is capability to maintain ( not a migration !!!) the code of some libraries in both plattform. I should be interrested to have some advice (design, tools,...), experience Regards, Michel Van Asten Projections sa -Message d'origine- De : Rick Reumann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Envoyé : mardi 5 juillet 2005 22:24 À : Struts Users Mailing List Objet : Re: Struts vs .NET??? John Henry Xu wrote the following on 7/2/2005 6:43 AM: Is writting lots of getters and setters manually the most productive way in real projects? You keep coming back to this getters and setters thing:) Like I said any editor (even vim:) can create getters and setters. I take it you think Struts is all about getters and setters? Seriously, don't take offense to this, but I'm wondering how many Struts applications you actually coded? I usually have several ActionForms and some beans which do have get/set methods. The beans (value objects/dto's) I'd have even if I was coding an application in Swing/.NET or whatever. So your main thrust here seems to be about ActionForms and get/set methods? Honestly that's such a small part of the whole process I still can't believe you are harping on it. I think we can terminate listening to your posts because of this statement: My experience was Struts have more codes and configuration files than straight forward JSP+Javabean+taglibs approach that was done before. This tells me either: A) You haven't used Struts much OR C) The applications you write using your home-grown approach have to be quite sucky and would be a royal pain to maintain and refactor as requirements change. I make this claim because Struts (and other web application frameworks) provide ALREADY WRITTEN CODE in jars that you'd have to write YOURSELF if you didn't use a framework. So, to quote you, - more lines mean more time and a waste of money. So under your own logic you are costing your company a TON of money and you might want to think about adopting some web framework for your developers to start using. I can get into all the little things web frameworks provide, but here are some simple questions I have for you that maybe you can answer from 'your experience'... Where do your forms submit to? How do you handle/configure where the page forwards to after the request is sent? When you need to change the flow of the application (what page forwards to where) how do you make this change? How do you handle server side validation problems and display messages to the user about these server side problems? If you handled ANY of the above than I will GUARANTEE you that I can take your SAME application, and not change any of your business logic, and end up with code that is CLEANER and, most importantly from your perspective, written in LESS lines. I truly truly would love for you to zip up a sample of one of your web applications and let us check out this 'smaller' code base. Please do it. Pretty please. I'm sorry if I sound a bit hostile, but I've had this 'argument' with so many people over the years. They say stuff like I don't see why use (insert your favorite web framework), you just complicate things and end up with more code and configuration files. Then what happens is I see their code and see all the wasted stuff they are doing that a web framework provides 'out of the box.' I think the problem is these people don't see how the framework saves time because they haven't worked with. Do these frameworks have problems? Yes, they do. I'm not a fan of ActionForms myself, but I do see their place in the Struts world. JSF seems to have gotten rid of them. Some frameworks the learning curve looks too steep for me to invest the time in it (Spring's UI framework seemed to be one of these back in the day when I first considered it... the docs sucked). Others out there seem good, but I'm just too comfortable with Struts to make the change. I can whip out a quality web app using Struts and iBATIS in practically no time at all. Granted, yes, Struts has a learning curve, but once you learn it you can apply it to any app or other apps that are coded with it. Conversely, if we take your JSP+Javabean+taglibs only application it will be much more difficult for a new person to the application to understand (again, you are all about saving money so I'm not sure how you can't see how your home-grown approach will cost you more in the long run). -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail
Re: Struts vs .NET???
Okay, okay, Reumann. Do you want to be right or do you want to be loving? ///;-) Xu really is not all that atuned to computer stuff, even though he is a computer journalist, so you might take him on as your grasshopper? ///;-) On 7/5/05, Rick Reumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Henry Xu wrote the following on 7/2/2005 6:43 AM: Is writting lots of getters and setters manually the most productive way in real projects? You keep coming back to this getters and setters thing:) Like I said any editor (even vim:) can create getters and setters. I take it you think Struts is all about getters and setters? Seriously, don't take offense to this, but I'm wondering how many Struts applications you actually coded? I usually have several ActionForms and some beans which do have get/set methods. The beans (value objects/dto's) I'd have even if I was coding an application in Swing/.NET or whatever. So your main thrust here seems to be about ActionForms and get/set methods? Honestly that's such a small part of the whole process I still can't believe you are harping on it. I think we can terminate listening to your posts because of this statement: My experience was Struts have more codes and configuration files than straight forward JSP+Javabean+taglibs approach that was done before. This tells me either: A) You haven't used Struts much OR C) The applications you write using your home-grown approach have to be quite sucky and would be a royal pain to maintain and refactor as requirements change. I make this claim because Struts (and other web application frameworks) provide ALREADY WRITTEN CODE in jars that you'd have to write YOURSELF if you didn't use a framework. So, to quote you, - more lines mean more time and a waste of money. So under your own logic you are costing your company a TON of money and you might want to think about adopting some web framework for your developers to start using. I can get into all the little things web frameworks provide, but here are some simple questions I have for you that maybe you can answer from 'your experience'... Where do your forms submit to? How do you handle/configure where the page forwards to after the request is sent? When you need to change the flow of the application (what page forwards to where) how do you make this change? How do you handle server side validation problems and display messages to the user about these server side problems? If you handled ANY of the above than I will GUARANTEE you that I can take your SAME application, and not change any of your business logic, and end up with code that is CLEANER and, most importantly from your perspective, written in LESS lines. I truly truly would love for you to zip up a sample of one of your web applications and let us check out this 'smaller' code base. Please do it. Pretty please. I'm sorry if I sound a bit hostile, but I've had this 'argument' with so many people over the years. They say stuff like I don't see why use (insert your favorite web framework), you just complicate things and end up with more code and configuration files. Then what happens is I see their code and see all the wasted stuff they are doing that a web framework provides 'out of the box.' I think the problem is these people don't see how the framework saves time because they haven't worked with. Do these frameworks have problems? Yes, they do. I'm not a fan of ActionForms myself, but I do see their place in the Struts world. JSF seems to have gotten rid of them. Some frameworks the learning curve looks too steep for me to invest the time in it (Spring's UI framework seemed to be one of these back in the day when I first considered it... the docs sucked). Others out there seem good, but I'm just too comfortable with Struts to make the change. I can whip out a quality web app using Struts and iBATIS in practically no time at all. Granted, yes, Struts has a learning curve, but once you learn it you can apply it to any app or other apps that are coded with it. Conversely, if we take your JSP+Javabean+taglibs only application it will be much more difficult for a new person to the application to understand (again, you are all about saving money so I'm not sure how you can't see how your home-grown approach will cost you more in the long run). -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(OT) Re: Struts vs .NET???
Hi Dakota Jack, very funny. I think someone had suggested to put this thread to OT. BTW, I don't want spend too much time on this and I had said enough about you in my emails. Now I can focus on my job and be more productive by not having to write getters and setters manually. Only when I wrote million line codes I realized how insane to write something machine can produce perfectly to you. That's the difference between us. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Dakota Jack To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 07:54:18 -0700 Okay, okay, Reumann. Do you want to be right or do you want to be loving? ///;-) Xu really is not all that atuned to computer stuff, even though he is a computer journalist, so you might take him on as your grasshopper? ///;-) On 7/5/05, Rick Reumann wrote: John Henry Xu wrote the following on 7/2/2005 6:43 AM: Is writting lots of getters and setters manually the most productive way in real projects? You keep coming back to this getters and setters thing:) Like I said any editor (even vim:) can create getters and setters. I take it you think Struts is all about getters and setters? Seriously, don't take offense to this, but I'm wondering how many Struts applications you actually coded? I usually have several ActionForms and some beans which do have get/set methods. The beans (value objects/dto's) I'd have even if I was coding an application in Swing/.NET or whatever. So your main thrust here seems to be about ActionForms and get/set methods? Honestly that's such a small part of the whole process I still can't believe you are harping on it. I think we can terminate listening to your posts because of this statement: My experience was Struts have more codes and configuration files than straight forward JSP+Javabean+taglibs approach that was done before. This tells me either: A) You haven't used Struts much OR C) The applications you write using your home-grown approach have to be quite sucky and would be a royal pain to maintain and refactor as requirements change. I make this claim because Struts (and other web application frameworks) provide ALREADY WRITTEN CODE in jars that you'd have to write YOURSELF if you didn't use a framework. So, to quote you, - more lines mean more time and a waste of money. So under your own logic you are costing your company a TON of money and you might want to think about adopting some web framework for your developers to start using. I can get into all the little things web frameworks provide, but here are some simple questions I have for you that maybe you can answer from 'your experience'... Where do your forms submit to? How do you handle/configure where the page forwards to after the request is sent? When you need to change the flow of the application (what page forwards to where) how do you make this change? How do you handle server side validation problems and display messages to the user about these server side problems? If you handled ANY of the above than I will GUARANTEE you that I can take your SAME application, and not change any of your business logic, and end up with code that is CLEANER and, most importantly from your perspective, written in LESS lines. I truly truly would love for you to zip up a sample of one of your web applications and let us check out this 'smaller' code base. Please do it. Pretty please. I'm sorry if I sound a bit hostile, but I've had this 'argument' with so many people over the years. They say stuff like I don't see why use (insert your favorite web framework), you just complicate things and end up with more code and configuration files. Then what happens is I see their code and see all the wasted stuff they are doing that a web framework provides 'out of the box.' I think the problem is these people don't see how the framework saves time because they haven't worked with. Do these frameworks have problems? Yes, they do. I'm not a fan of ActionForms myself, but I do see their place in the Struts world. JSF seems to have gotten rid of them. Some frameworks the learning curve looks too steep for me to invest the time in it (Spring's UI framework seemed to be one of these back in the day when I first considered it... the docs sucked). Others out there seem good, but I'm just too comfortable with Struts to make the change. I can whip out a quality web app using Struts and iBATIS in practically no time
Re: Struts vs .NET???
On Mon, Jul 04, 2005 at 03:15:38PM -0700, Dakota Jack wrote: } I didn't ask how Mono runs on Apple, did I? No, you asked how C# runs on Apple. The only .NET runtime and C# compiler than I know of that supports MacOS X (which is what I believe you mean by Apple) is Mono. Therefore, C# runs on Apple under Mono, which is the answer I gave. Were you fishing for a different answer? --Greg } On 7/3/05, Gregory Seidman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: } On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 11:34:44PM -0700, Dakota Jack wrote: } } And how does C# run on Apple? LOL } } See http://www.mono-project.com/ } } --Greg [...] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
Dave Newton wrote the following on 7/2/2005 4:06 PM: Gregory Seidman wrote: On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 02:16:49AM +0200, Leon Rosenberg wrote: } Heh, } } I hate this kind of discussion... } } Maybe you are the fastest keyboard user on the world... } } I want to see you refactoring a method, lets say change the method name, } with emacs/vi/notepad if there are about 20 other places in code where this } method is called. With an IDE it takes 1 second. With vi? 3 hours? A) If you change the name of a method, especially by the time it's referenced numerous places, you've already screwed up. It shows a lack of forethought in your design (and I don't necessarily mean formal design). B) With appropriate unix tools (ed or perl, in this case), it's under a minute. While that's more than one second, it should be an exceedingly rare operation (see A). } leon --Greg Ooo, I'll hafta disagree on both of these. A) Renaming something to better describe its function isn't a crime or bad design; sometimes it's just a by-product of an iterative design process. Iterative design is pretty much the norm for quick turnaround projects, especially web-based, because programmers have to work at internet speed, not a sane I get to design everything first speed. I'm pretty design-oriented, and reasonably good at it to boot, but I might rename something 2-3x before I'm done with it, for various reasons. These days I can do that trivially; in older days I might not have bothered, and my recent code is the better for it. +1 Which is why I think a good refactoring IDE is very useful (as do many others) Not trying to continue the IDE wars, simply stating that Greg you are wrong if you think that 'refactoring' means you are poor designer. B) It's WAY quicker and, more importantly, _safer_, to rename using an IDE that knows about the underlying code than with sed/etc. +1 No way this can be done more quickly or more *safely* using gawk,squak or whatever and typing -frg fsh+1000 *.dfjkj %^% As a side note, just noticed IDEA had a cool prompt when I was refactoring a class name. Initially the name of the class was FooBarVO and I realized I didn't want to have it named VO.. just want it FooBar. Well the neat thing is FooBarVO extended BaseVO, and I got prompted if not only did I want to change the superclass name but also all the other subclass named WhateverVO.. it was smart enough to figure out that I probably wanted to drop all the 'VO's off the subclass names. Another factor that I know saves time using an IDE is .Completion. I don't care how well you know the API of the project you are working on, being able to type someInstance.(--dot) and having the possible method names now pop up is a HUGE time saver - you simply can't deny it. Again I'm not huge fan of IDEs that get in your way, and if not for .(dot) completion and refactoring, I don't see a 'tremendous' value for them. A good text editor is a must though and for those that care, you can set up IDEA to use vim commands which is pretty cool. (I happen to like jEdit for most of my work, although the latest UltraEdit looks really nice and since I'm back on Windows I might shell out the small money for that product since I really liked it back when I used to use it over five years ago). -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
John Henry Xu wrote the following on 7/2/2005 6:43 AM: Is writting lots of getters and setters manually the most productive way in real projects? You keep coming back to this getters and setters thing:) Like I said any editor (even vim:) can create getters and setters. I take it you think Struts is all about getters and setters? Seriously, don't take offense to this, but I'm wondering how many Struts applications you actually coded? I usually have several ActionForms and some beans which do have get/set methods. The beans (value objects/dto's) I'd have even if I was coding an application in Swing/.NET or whatever. So your main thrust here seems to be about ActionForms and get/set methods? Honestly that's such a small part of the whole process I still can't believe you are harping on it. I think we can terminate listening to your posts because of this statement: My experience was Struts have more codes and configuration files than straight forward JSP+Javabean+taglibs approach that was done before. This tells me either: A) You haven't used Struts much OR C) The applications you write using your home-grown approach have to be quite sucky and would be a royal pain to maintain and refactor as requirements change. I make this claim because Struts (and other web application frameworks) provide ALREADY WRITTEN CODE in jars that you'd have to write YOURSELF if you didn't use a framework. So, to quote you, - more lines mean more time and a waste of money. So under your own logic you are costing your company a TON of money and you might want to think about adopting some web framework for your developers to start using. I can get into all the little things web frameworks provide, but here are some simple questions I have for you that maybe you can answer from 'your experience'... Where do your forms submit to? How do you handle/configure where the page forwards to after the request is sent? When you need to change the flow of the application (what page forwards to where) how do you make this change? How do you handle server side validation problems and display messages to the user about these server side problems? If you handled ANY of the above than I will GUARANTEE you that I can take your SAME application, and not change any of your business logic, and end up with code that is CLEANER and, most importantly from your perspective, written in LESS lines. I truly truly would love for you to zip up a sample of one of your web applications and let us check out this 'smaller' code base. Please do it. Pretty please. I'm sorry if I sound a bit hostile, but I've had this 'argument' with so many people over the years. They say stuff like I don't see why use (insert your favorite web framework), you just complicate things and end up with more code and configuration files. Then what happens is I see their code and see all the wasted stuff they are doing that a web framework provides 'out of the box.' I think the problem is these people don't see how the framework saves time because they haven't worked with. Do these frameworks have problems? Yes, they do. I'm not a fan of ActionForms myself, but I do see their place in the Struts world. JSF seems to have gotten rid of them. Some frameworks the learning curve looks too steep for me to invest the time in it (Spring's UI framework seemed to be one of these back in the day when I first considered it... the docs sucked). Others out there seem good, but I'm just too comfortable with Struts to make the change. I can whip out a quality web app using Struts and iBATIS in practically no time at all. Granted, yes, Struts has a learning curve, but once you learn it you can apply it to any app or other apps that are coded with it. Conversely, if we take your JSP+Javabean+taglibs only application it will be much more difficult for a new person to the application to understand (again, you are all about saving money so I'm not sure how you can't see how your home-grown approach will cost you more in the long run). -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] Show me the money..I mean Lines WAS Re: Struts vs .NET???
Replying changing the subject so people don't think this is a struts vs .net debate... I'm still curious what John Henry is talking about with this GUI and less lines of code concept.. my comments below... John Henry Xu wrote the following on 7/2/2005 6:43 AM: Is writting lots of getters and setters manually the most productive way in real projects? Rick Reumann reply: You keep coming back to this getters and setters thing:) Like I said any editor (even vim:) can create getters and setters. I take it you think Struts is all about getters and setters? Seriously, don't take offense to this, but I'm wondering how many Struts applications you actually coded? I usually have several ActionForms and some beans which do have get/set methods. The beans (value objects/dto's) I'd have even if I was coding an application in Swing/.NET or whatever. So your main thrust here seems to be about ActionForms and get/set methods? Honestly that's such a small part of the whole process I still can't believe you are harping on it. I think we can terminate listening to your posts because of this statement: My experience was Struts have more codes and configuration files than straight forward JSP+Javabean+taglibs approach that was done before. This tells me either: A) You haven't used Struts much OR C) The applications you write using your home-grown approach have to be quite sucky and would be a royal pain to maintain and refactor as requirements change. I make this claim because Struts (and other web application frameworks) provide ALREADY WRITTEN CODE in jars that you'd have to write YOURSELF if you didn't use a framework. So, to quote you, - more lines mean more time and a waste of money. So under your own logic you are costing your company a TON of money and you might want to think about adopting some web framework for your developers to start using. I can get into all the little things web frameworks provide, but here are some simple questions I have for you that maybe you can answer from 'your experience'... Where do your forms submit to? How do you handle/configure where the page forwards to after the request is sent? When you need to change the flow of the application (what page forwards to where) how do you make this change? How do you handle server side validation problems and display messages to the user about these server side problems? If you handled ANY of the above than I will GUARANTEE you that I can take your SAME application, and not change any of your business logic, and end up with code that is CLEANER and, most importantly from your perspective, written in LESS lines. I truly truly would love for you to zip up a sample of one of your web applications and let us check out this 'smaller' code base. Please do it. Pretty please. I'm sorry if I sound a bit hostile, but I've had this 'argument' with so many people over the years. They say stuff like I don't see why use (insert your favorite web framework), you just complicate things and end up with more code and configuration files. Then what happens is I see their code and see all the wasted stuff they are doing that a web framework provides 'out of the box.' I think the problem is these people don't see how the framework saves time because they haven't worked with. Do these frameworks have problems? Yes, they do. I'm not a fan of ActionForms myself, but I do see their place in the Struts world. JSF seems to have gotten rid of them. Some frameworks the learning curve looks too steep for me to invest the time in it (Spring's UI framework seemed to be one of these back in the day when I first considered it... the docs sucked). Others out there seem good, but I'm just too comfortable with Struts to make the change. I can whip out a quality web app using Struts and iBATIS in practically no time at all. Granted, yes, Struts has a learning curve, but once you learn it you can apply it to any app or other apps that are coded with it. Conversely, if we take your JSP+Javabean+taglibs only application it will be much more difficult for a new person to the application to understand (again, you are all about saving money so I'm not sure how you can't see how your home-grown approach will cost you more in the long run). -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] some props John/Jack (WAS) Re: Struts vs .NET???
John Henry Xu wrote the following on 7/2/2005 9:50 PM: Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com Hey cool site! John/Jack(?) I really like the way the articles are presented. I love clear step by step approaches! The one on web services looks great. -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] some props John/Jack (WAS) Re: Struts vs .NET???
Hi Rick, I am very happy you like my articles. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Rick Reumann To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: [OT] some props John/Jack (WAS) Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:42:10 -0400 John Henry Xu wrote the following on 7/2/2005 9:50 PM: Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com Hey cool site! John/Jack(?) I really like the way the articles are presented. I love clear step by step approaches! The one on web services looks great. -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
Re: Struts vs .NET??? - Real Stats
Actually, this did not help me at all. I understand that differences, etc. I just wondered what you thought, since I thought your conclusions were contrary to the facts. On 7/3/05, Gregory Seidman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 11:48:37PM -0700, Dakota Jack wrote: } What is your basis for your assessment of .NET and Struts? What sort } of problem are you talking about/ My assessment is based on my own development experience with both, plus lurking on this list for a few years. I will reiterate that I am not interested in converting Java/Struts developers to C#/.NET developers; I want Java and Struts to be the best they can be, and that knowing the competition is a step toward that. I posted something fairly in-depth about the advantages of C#-the-language over Java-the-language. Check the archives for the last couple of days. A few of those advantages have to do with the .NET runtime itself (in particular, 1) properties being first-class reflectable objects, just like methods and members, rather than derived from the JavaBeans get/set naming convention, and 2) events and delegate (method pointer) types being first-class reflectable objects rather than using interfaces for handlers). For now, Java has the advantages of generics and anonymous inner classes over C#, but the next version of C# (due out this year, and what I'm hearing about the betas leads me to believe that it will actually be out this year) supports both of those and simplifies a few other common idioms (iteration, in particular). I have not done any comparison of .NET vs. Java performance, nor have I compared their garbage collection strategies or threading models. They seem to be pretty similar, and they can be expected to maintain very similar performance profiles since the optimization techniques for such things are old in academia and well-published. Their different choices of performance tradeoffs may eventually effect their usefulness for particular purposes, at which point it may be appropriate to choose one or the other based on one's specific application. The APIs (system libraries and extension libraries) considered part of either Java or .NET are pretty similar. Java has a much larger set of third-party free libraries (in good part thanks to Apache's Jakarta project), but many of those are being ported to .NET. On the other hand, there are many commercially-licensed components for .NET, and there are likely to be more, simply because it is in the Microsoft world. I don't have exact (or meaningful) figures on this, so take it with a grain of salt. Anecdotally, I can say that in a previous project I sought a particular ASP.NET control and found dozens of candidates, commercial and otherwise, and the one that best suited our application was commercial. (We bought it, we used it, their tech support was excellent (including accepting patches from me), and it did what we needed.) Comparing JSP and Struts to ASP.NET turns up sharp corners in both. It's very easy to encapsulate functionality in a custom tag in ASP.NET, much harder to do so for JSP. Struts abstracts away the specifics of the generated HTML (both outgoing HTML and incoming form data), which supports the MVC model; ASP.NET requires a bit more hoop-jumping to do so. Validation, both server-side and client-side, is far easier in ASP.NET than with Struts. ASP.NET has almost no configuration required other than the .aspx/.ascx (equivalent to .jsp) files themselves, whereas Struts requires a configuration file that grows increasingly complicated as the site grows larger (though, to its credit, it does centralize the transition graph of the site). Neither Struts nor ASP.NET cares much about business objects, but both can deal with them just like any other object. Finally, while ASP.NET scales well from a single page to an entire site, Struts doesn't really shine until you get to at least 5-10 separate forms/pages. I hope this is a useful answer to your question. --Greg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
And how does C# run on Apple? LOL On 7/2/05, Gregory Seidman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 04:41:38AM -0700, Nitish Kumar wrote: } With all due respect to every one (including microsoft).. the advantage of } .NET is nothing but a IDE which is idiot proof. } Any dumb can do a few clicks followed by intelligent editor to prompt and } spoon feed whats to be written, and then the IDE creates a code, which makes } any dumb with or without any intelligence, a programmer. You clearly missed my post on the advantages C# has over Java, IDE notwithstanding. The language itself is more convenient, in that common idioms require fewer lines of code. Sure, you can tell me that Eclipse or whatnot takes the drudgery out of getters and setters, but I can tell you that the C# language itself avoids that drudgery. You can also tell me that there are Java tools to make the unpleasant task of developing a JSP tag easier, but I can tell you that C# and ASP.NET make encapsulating functionality in custom tags comfortable and easy. Furthermore, it is at least three times easier (i.e. takes 1/3 the lines of code) to express event handling in C# than in Java. C# has other advantages as well (I'm particularly excited about the coming C# improvements, which include a very nice way of expressing iteration), but those three are sufficient basis for the points below. If you are an idiot, you can produce crappy code that may actually work. This is, indeed, more likely using Visual Studio (though I'd claim the days of it being truly easy were over when VB6 went away) than in Java. Ultimately, however, if you want solid, dependable, maintainable, scalable software then you need good software engineering, and no IDE or language will change that. If you have good software engineers, it then becomes a concern of how much do they have to do to accomplish the task, which boils down to lines of code. (A better software engineer will accomplish the same task in fewer lines of code, but there is a lower limit on the lines of code required to express any specific functionality.) With C# in particular, and ASP.NET to some extent, the number of lines of code required (whether or not you count lines generated by your IDE of choice) to express any given functionality is generally less than that required to do the same thing in Java. This is based on my experience, of course, but also based on the specific advantages I listed above; they are common idioms, which means that saving a few lines of code in the numerous places in your program where you use those idioms adds up. } Unfortunately in java, we still have a long way to go before we promote } idiots to the coder level.. We are progressing in that direction, but I } guess we still have some time before that..till then I hope to retire.. :) I am not interested in having idiots coding. There are two problems with coding by idiots: 1) They often become managers (or already were) and can't understand why it takes so long for those lazy software engineers to accomplish the tasks before them. I mean, after all, when they slapped together that VB app in a week it worked great! 2) Once the idiots have produced their crappy code, it becomes some software engineer's problem to maintain it, make it scalable, etc. and it's just unpleasant to deal with crappy code. Even worse is when management ties the software engineers' hands and prevents them from treating the crap code as a working prototype (i.e. which should now be rewritten) and forces them to keep it alive as is. Also note that there are huge distinctions between a coder, a programmer, and a software engineer. The coder produces (working?) code. The programmer can produce working code that accomplishes a medium to large task with some eye toward efficiency. The software engineer can produce well thought out, working, maintainable, scalable code that provides hooks for potential future development. I hate working with coders. Programmers are useful, but require guidance. } Thanks and Regards, } Nitish Kumar --Greg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
No, Xu go first! LOL On 7/2/05, John Henry Xu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dakota Jack, Do you always accuse people don't understand framework if they don't agree with you? You need evidence to back up your claims. Show us some large struts web sites you had/have worked on so we can discuss them and technologies according to your claims. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Dakota Jack To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 05:28:02 -0700 You only have this experience because you clearly do not even see what te framework does for you. If you don't see that, you see nothing. On 7/2/05, John Henry Xu wrote: The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have to code the framework. That was an interesting statement. My experience was Struts have more codes and configuration files than straight forward JSP+Javabean+taglibs approach that was done before. And also I would insist J2EE vs .Net is a more appropriate comparison than JSF vs .NET (as you suggested in another email). Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Dakota Jack To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:45:41 -0700 The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have to code the framework. On 7/1/05, John Henry Xu wrote: Rick, you are right that you can write struts using very basic text editor. My consideation is based on the cost of software development. Let's say for the same problem that you tried to solve: before your code was 1000 lines. Now in struts, your code are 1500 lines (remember those setters and getters and configuration files.) Assume you use basic text editor, the time you finish your project is 1.5 times than before. Now if this transfer to many projects, the budget you finish those projects will be 1.5 times as before. Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a year, now you need 15 million dollars to do the same work. So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to cut those 5 million dollars. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Rick Reumann To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:35:31 -0400 John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM: struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And in my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and setters. Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set methods, so I wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts apps. I happen to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used to using them. (Yea I know Eclipse is good also..bla bla.. everyone just use what you like.. emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard, whatever:) It's just very misleading to state that you need GUI tools to create Struts apps. -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist
Re: Struts vs .NET??? - Real Stats
What is your basis for your assessment of .NET and Struts? What sort of problem are you talking about/ On 7/2/05, Gregory Seidman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 03:32:00AM +0200, Leon Rosenberg wrote: } Btw... Can you name 10 successful .NET sites? Something clearly above 100 } Million PIs / month, better 1 billion PIs ? } I'd be really interested :-) I don't know that anyone keeps a list around, but this is a foolish challenge to give without checking Google: 1) www.donotcall.gov 2) www.gop.com 3) www.us.playstation.com 4) www.computerjobs.com 5) www.xanga.com 6) asp.usatoday.com 7) online.firstusa.com 8) www.bankone.com 9) www.careerbuilder.com 10) finance.lycos.com Of course, I can't make any guarantees on how much traffic these sites get. They are, however, pretty popular. That said, it matters very little how many sites are successfully using it. I only know of one successfully deployed LISP-based site, but that doesn't mean it isn't excellent technology (see http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html). If it's a matter of being able to find people to maintain the software in the future, you are almost always better off choosing Microsoft technologies, though both Java and C++ are pretty strong in that area as well. Struts? Maybe not so much. JSF? Still new, which makes it risky. In any case, I'm not trying to post flamebait here, nor do I wish to engage in an argument. I would like Java and J2EE/JSF/Struts/API of the month to be better than any Microsoft offering. I will have to learn more about JSF, since it seems to be getting there. I can say that Java/JSP/Struts falls short of C#/.NET/ASP.NET at this time. Those of you who have never tried doing anything with C# and ASP.NET should try it out, just to know the competition and to gain some perspective on the sharp corners of what you are currently using that you have grown too used to for them to register as worth fixing. } Regards } Leon --Greg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Re: Struts vs .NET???
-Original Message- . . . What makes you think http://wiki.apache.org/struts/PoweredBy is a struts site? Don't give wrong information. . . . Technology columnist and editor -/Original Message - No wonder I have such a low consideration for technology columns and their writers... He just passed you a link where you can look up a lot of links to sites using struts. That's quite a bit more intelligent than copying all the information already stored in a publicily available place. Sort of: like .net vs Struts: Struts invites you not to copy, but rather use the indirection .Net invites you to copy Alexander - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
2 more Struts sites to add to the list (http://wiki.apache.org/struts/StrutsWebLinks): http://www.iberia.com/ https://caixadirecta.cgd.pt/ (bank) Of course I cannot be sure but it sure seems like it :) PS On 03/07/2005 09:44, Jesse Alexander (KBSA 21) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- . . . What makes you think http://wiki.apache.org/struts/PoweredBy is a struts site? Don't give wrong information. . . . Technology columnist and editor -/Original Message - No wonder I have such a low consideration for technology columns and their writers... He just passed you a link where you can look up a lot of links to sites using struts. That's quite a bit more intelligent than copying all the information already stored in a publicily available place. Sort of: like .net vs Struts: Struts invites you not to copy, but rather use the indirection .Net invites you to copy Alexander - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 11:34:44PM -0700, Dakota Jack wrote: } And how does C# run on Apple? LOL See http://www.mono-project.com/ --Greg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Re: Struts vs .NET???
Lots of links on internet. I asked him to give particular links so we can analyze the structure of the site and how many struts were used there. The link he gave many are just information about struts. Some are broken links. Maybe you can tell your struts sites. I don't use .net. and I would be glad to see more and more complex sites using struts technologies. Unfortunately, some guys who have no real experience just try to complicated the discussion by accusing people. So now I state clearly: 1. I am a java and open source fan. No .net would be used in my real applications except web services. amd I think struts is a great framework. 2. I believe many struts classes should be generated by tools, GUI or non GUI, in real application, so it would be easier and cheaper for struts application development. 3. I ask those inexperienced programmers to show their sites because they only use buzz words and pretended they are experts of struts. If you disagree with me, just disagree with me on above three statements. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor a href=http://www.cppunit.org/article/index.jsp?rclient=0080;http://www.usanalyst.com/a a href=http://www.getusjobs.com/jobsite/index.jsp?rclient=0080;http://www.getusjobs.com/a (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Jesse Alexander (KBSA 21) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List user@struts.apache.org Subject: RE: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 09:44:42 +0200 -Original Message- . . . What makes you think http://wiki.apache.org/struts/PoweredBy is a struts site? Don't give wrong information. . . . Technology columnist and editor -/Original Message - No wonder I have such a low consideration for technology columns and their writers... He just passed you a link where you can look up a lot of links to sites using struts. That's quite a bit more intelligent than copying all the information already stored in a publicily available place. Sort of: like .net vs Struts: Struts invites you not to copy, but rather use the indirection .Net invites you to copy Alexander - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor a href=http://www.cppunit.org/article/index.jsp?rclient=0080;http://www.usanalyst.com/a a href=http://www.getusjobs.com/jobsite/index.jsp?rclient=0080;http://www.getusjobs.com/a (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
Actually, I usually compare JSF and .NET. On 6/30/05, John Henry Xu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We usually compare J2EE vs .NET struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And in my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and setters. .NET is good technology but it can not work on other systems. I like .net's web services. Overall, I still like Java better than .net. I had designed rather large Java-based system with J2EE. Performance are very good. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The lagest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Rafael Taboada To: Struts List Subject: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:37:57 -0500 Hi folks I've been reading all mails about VS.NET . I have a question. Is it true that software in ASP.NET is faster than in Struts???.. HOw true is this opinion? I heard about a tool that it can convert a ASP.NET soft in a .war so it can be runned in Tomcat... Is it true? what tool is it? Thanks for ur xperiencie sharing. -- Rafael Taboada Software Engineer Cell : +511-97753290 No creo en el destino pues no me gusta tener la idea de controlar mi vida Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and author http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
Good lord, if you want a GUI tool, just make one. This is not a response to Reumann who absolutely rocks but to those people who like other people to code for them, i.e. the VB lovers and the like, like JSF, .NET, etc. On 7/1/05, Rick Reumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM: struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And in my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and setters. Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set methods, so I wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts apps. I happen to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used to using them. (Yea I know Eclipse is good also..bla bla.. everyone just use what you like.. emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard, whatever:) It's just very misleading to state that you need GUI tools to create Struts apps. -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have to code the framework. On 7/1/05, John Henry Xu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick, you are right that you can write struts using very basic text editor. My consideation is based on the cost of software development. Let's say for the same problem that you tried to solve: before your code was 1000 lines. Now in struts, your code are 1500 lines (remember those setters and getters and configuration files.) Assume you use basic text editor, the time you finish your project is 1.5 times than before. Now if this transfer to many projects, the budget you finish those projects will be 1.5 times as before. Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a year, now you need 15 million dollars to do the same work. So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to cut those 5 million dollars. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Rick Reumann To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:35:31 -0400 John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM: struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And in my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and setters. Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set methods, so I wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts apps. I happen to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used to using them. (Yea I know Eclipse is good also..bla bla.. everyone just use what you like.. emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard, whatever:) It's just very misleading to state that you need GUI tools to create Struts apps. -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Struts vs .NET???
No, I don't. This is a really superficial analysis. On 7/1/05, John Henry Xu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: V., in any cases of programming, more lines and more classes means more work and more money. Don't you agree? Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: netsql To: user@struts.apache.org Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 18:30:31 -0700 Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a year, now you need 15 million dollars to do the same work. So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to cut those 5 million dollars. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor Ahh.. you are an editor... and not a programmer. In that case your logic is right. .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
I believe JSF will kill Struts in 2 years... --- Dakota Jack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have to code the framework. On 7/1/05, John Henry Xu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick, you are right that you can write struts using very basic text editor. My consideation is based on the cost of software development. Let's say for the same problem that you tried to solve: before your code was 1000 lines. Now in struts, your code are 1500 lines (remember those setters and getters and configuration files.) Assume you use basic text editor, the time you finish your project is 1.5 times than before. Now if this transfer to many projects, the budget you finish those projects will be 1.5 times as before. Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a year, now you need 15 million dollars to do the same work. So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to cut those 5 million dollars. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Rick Reumann To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:35:31 -0400 John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM: struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And in my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and setters. Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set methods, so I wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts apps. I happen to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used to using them. (Yea I know Eclipse is good also..bla bla.. everyone just use what you like.. emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard, whatever:) It's just very misleading to state that you need GUI tools to create Struts apps. -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
This is like comparing apples and oranges. The level of coding knowledge in this thread is way low, way low. On 7/1/05, Yan Hu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good point. Sometimes you want a Picaso, and sometimes you want a $10 painting. How many people could afford Picaso? That is excatly why .NET is creeping up so fast. As Rod Johnson asked, how many huge huge apps are out there waiting for distributed transaction management provided by EJB containers? . What does Java have to stack up against .NET on desktops? NOTHING. We are still strong on the severside although we lost quite a portion of the pie to .NET. If we lost our last stronghold on the serverside, you would all become bums(on top of outsourcing) no matter how fast you could code in your this pad and that pad. Thanks to JSF and other things such as spring and hibernate,we are in very good shape again. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
--- Dakota Jack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is like comparing apples and oranges. The level of coding knowledge in this thread is way low, way low. In fact, people were comparing J2EE with .NET. instead of Struts vs .NET since they are apple and orange.. The subject is misleading... - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have to code the framework. That was an interesting statement. My experience was Struts have more codes and configuration files than straight forward JSP+Javabean+taglibs approach that was done before. And also I would insist J2EE vs .Net is a more appropriate comparison than JSF vs .NET (as you suggested in another email). Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Dakota Jack To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:45:41 -0700 The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have to code the framework. On 7/1/05, John Henry Xu wrote: Rick, you are right that you can write struts using very basic text editor. My consideation is based on the cost of software development. Let's say for the same problem that you tried to solve: before your code was 1000 lines. Now in struts, your code are 1500 lines (remember those setters and getters and configuration files.) Assume you use basic text editor, the time you finish your project is 1.5 times than before. Now if this transfer to many projects, the budget you finish those projects will be 1.5 times as before. Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a year, now you need 15 million dollars to do the same work. So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to cut those 5 million dollars. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Rick Reumann To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:35:31 -0400 John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM: struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And in my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and setters. Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set methods, so I wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts apps. I happen to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used to using them. (Yea I know Eclipse is good also..bla bla.. everyone just use what you like.. emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard, whatever:) It's just very misleading to state that you need GUI tools to create Struts apps. -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
Re: Struts vs .NET???
Dakota Jack wrote: Good lord, if you want a GUI tool, just make one. D.J., I think a person doesn't need do all things by himself, especially there are lots of decent GUI tools in market for you to pick. Is writting lots of getters and setters manually the most productive way in real projects? Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Dakota Jack To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:44:26 -0700 Good lord, if you want a GUI tool, just make one. This is not a response to Reumann who absolutely rocks but to those people who like other people to code for them, i.e. the VB lovers and the like, like JSF, .NET, etc. On 7/1/05, Rick Reumann wrote: John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM: struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And in my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and setters. Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set methods, so I wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts apps. I happen to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used to using them. (Yea I know Eclipse is good also..bla bla.. everyone just use what you like.. emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard, whatever:) It's just very misleading to state that you need GUI tools to create Struts apps. -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
Re: Re: Struts vs .NET???
I agree w/ Dakota on this. Using a lines of code metric to measure cost is about as valid as saying Well, gee, M$'s stock prices are way higher than Sun's, so we should use .net! (Which, incidentally was the approach used where I work. Scary.) This thread is retarded. The intent is to decide which is better: .net, or Java/j2ee/JSF. Bottom line: THEY ALL SUCK. Period. If any of these is the pinnacle of human accomplishment, we are truly screwed. Not only that, but the comparison is totally pointless. Without some context, it is impossible to say which is better FOR YOUR NEEDS. The question is like Which is better: Pork or Chicken? I am adding an auto-delete filter on this thread...what a waste of brain cells and bandwidth. Larry On 7/2/05, Dakota Jack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, I don't. This is a really superficial analysis. On 7/1/05, John Henry Xu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in any cases of programming, more lines and more classes means more work and more money. Don't you agree? Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts vs .NET???
With all due respect to every one (including microsoft).. the advantage of .NET is nothing but a IDE which is idiot proof. Any dumb can do a few clicks followed by intelligent editor to prompt and spoon feed whats to be written, and then the IDE creates a code, which makes any dumb with or without any intelligence, a programmer. Unfortunately in java, we still have a long way to go before we promote idiots to the coder level.. We are progressing in that direction, but I guess we still have some time before that..till then I hope to retire.. :) Thanks and Regards, Nitish Kumar -Original Message- From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 4:14 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Dakota Jack wrote: Good lord, if you want a GUI tool, just make one. D.J., I think a person doesn't need do all things by himself, especially there are lots of decent GUI tools in market for you to pick. Is writting lots of getters and setters manually the most productive way in real projects? Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Dakota Jack To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:44:26 -0700 Good lord, if you want a GUI tool, just make one. This is not a response to Reumann who absolutely rocks but to those people who like other people to code for them, i.e. the VB lovers and the like, like JSF, .NET, etc. On 7/1/05, Rick Reumann wrote: John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM: struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And in my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and setters. Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set methods, so I wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts apps. I happen to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used to using them. (Yea I know Eclipse is good also..bla bla.. everyone just use what you like.. emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard, whatever:) It's just very misleading to state that you need GUI tools to create Struts apps. -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
(I need to get faster at creating filters I guess...) Sadly, that is the lie that the idiots are buying into. Yes, the IDE helps you do simple things like create a table (Oooh, I do not have to remember tr, td and th? Yipp!) or create a form (Hmm, post vs get...I always have to look that up.) or put a friggin link on a page (Gosh...a href=byteme.do what does that do again?). However, the REAL work still has to be coded up by hand. HTML is not that hard. That leaves all of the data access code (no, ADO.NET does not do it for you), business (il)logic, consistent builds (pressing F5 does not count), unit tests (F5 does not count here either), etc.. Larry On 7/2/05, Nitish Kumar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With all due respect to every one (including microsoft).. the advantage of .NET is nothing but a IDE which is idiot proof. Any dumb can do a few clicks followed by intelligent editor to prompt and spoon feed whats to be written, and then the IDE creates a code, which makes any dumb with or without any intelligence, a programmer. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
You only have this experience because you clearly do not even see what te framework does for you. If you don't see that, you see nothing. On 7/2/05, John Henry Xu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have to code the framework. That was an interesting statement. My experience was Struts have more codes and configuration files than straight forward JSP+Javabean+taglibs approach that was done before. And also I would insist J2EE vs .Net is a more appropriate comparison than JSF vs .NET (as you suggested in another email). Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Dakota Jack To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:45:41 -0700 The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have to code the framework. On 7/1/05, John Henry Xu wrote: Rick, you are right that you can write struts using very basic text editor. My consideation is based on the cost of software development. Let's say for the same problem that you tried to solve: before your code was 1000 lines. Now in struts, your code are 1500 lines (remember those setters and getters and configuration files.) Assume you use basic text editor, the time you finish your project is 1.5 times than before. Now if this transfer to many projects, the budget you finish those projects will be 1.5 times as before. Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a year, now you need 15 million dollars to do the same work. So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to cut those 5 million dollars. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Rick Reumann To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:35:31 -0400 John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM: struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And in my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and setters. Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set methods, so I wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts apps. I happen to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used to using them. (Yea I know Eclipse is good also..bla bla.. everyone just use what you like.. emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard, whatever:) It's just very misleading to state that you need GUI tools to create Struts apps. -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
tongue-in-cheekAnd he's not the fastest keyboard user in the world. I am. This has been well-established in previous threads. Search the archives./tongue-in-cheek (In all seriousness, I did actually hold the informal record for typing speed when I was in the Army, dunno if that still stands or not... which of course is an absolutely worthless bit of information in any case, but whatever :) ) Gregory Seidman wrote: On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 02:16:49AM +0200, Leon Rosenberg wrote: } Heh, } } I hate this kind of discussion... } } Maybe you are the fastest keyboard user on the world... } } I want to see you refactoring a method, lets say change the method name, } with emacs/vi/notepad if there are about 20 other places in code where this } method is called. With an IDE it takes 1 second. With vi? 3 hours? A) If you change the name of a method, especially by the time it's referenced numerous places, you've already screwed up. It shows a lack of forethought in your design (and I don't necessarily mean formal design). B) With appropriate unix tools (ed or perl, in this case), it's under a minute. While that's more than one second, it should be an exceedingly rare operation (see A). } leon --Greg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . -- Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies http://www.omnytex.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET??? - Real Stats
On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 03:32:00AM +0200, Leon Rosenberg wrote: } Btw... Can you name 10 successful .NET sites? Something clearly above 100 } Million PIs / month, better 1 billion PIs ? } I'd be really interested :-) I don't know that anyone keeps a list around, but this is a foolish challenge to give without checking Google: 1) www.donotcall.gov 2) www.gop.com 3) www.us.playstation.com 4) www.computerjobs.com 5) www.xanga.com 6) asp.usatoday.com 7) online.firstusa.com 8) www.bankone.com 9) www.careerbuilder.com 10) finance.lycos.com Of course, I can't make any guarantees on how much traffic these sites get. They are, however, pretty popular. That said, it matters very little how many sites are successfully using it. I only know of one successfully deployed LISP-based site, but that doesn't mean it isn't excellent technology (see http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html). If it's a matter of being able to find people to maintain the software in the future, you are almost always better off choosing Microsoft technologies, though both Java and C++ are pretty strong in that area as well. Struts? Maybe not so much. JSF? Still new, which makes it risky. In any case, I'm not trying to post flamebait here, nor do I wish to engage in an argument. I would like Java and J2EE/JSF/Struts/API of the month to be better than any Microsoft offering. I will have to learn more about JSF, since it seems to be getting there. I can say that Java/JSP/Struts falls short of C#/.NET/ASP.NET at this time. Those of you who have never tried doing anything with C# and ASP.NET should try it out, just to know the competition and to gain some perspective on the sharp corners of what you are currently using that you have grown too used to for them to register as worth fixing. } Regards } Leon --Greg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET??? - Real Stats
Gregory Seidman wrote: Of course, I can't make any guarantees on how much traffic these sites get. They are, however, pretty popular. This is a good list: http://www.alexa.com/site/ds/top_500 So it this: http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html In this 2nd you can see that MS has less than 30% market and shrinking - 2nd diagram. When I did a site that was ASP (ex http://people.1up.com - w/ 10MM members) client wanted something secure. .NET does not run well on Linux for large sites and that was that. So they dumped .NET. Using the new version of FrontPage in VS 2005, do you think you can do a page like ps2.1up.com, that automatical changes when you do pc.1up.com? It's the same page! I am so not trying to sell you on using text editor... I WANT you to use GUI tools. (You know they trained an elephat to paint by the #'s). For heavy lifting... jEdit(for Groovy) and X-Develop(when doing ANSI C#) will do ya. Refactoring is *NOT* a waste of time nor indication of bad design. Why would I want to teach you to be more productive? Plese use GUI and VS and FrontPage and Wizards. I think that there are much more productive aproaches, but no need for me to wear it on the sleave. This is not a religois langage war, people that did good Java will do good C# and the other way arround. In general, I am a libreterain, and as such I do not think stupidity should be outlawed. I am all for stupidity ;-) Struts is not here to defend J2EE, go to EJB or JSF list please and tell them .NET is better for corporate development! .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 04:41:38AM -0700, Nitish Kumar wrote: } With all due respect to every one (including microsoft).. the advantage of } .NET is nothing but a IDE which is idiot proof. } Any dumb can do a few clicks followed by intelligent editor to prompt and } spoon feed whats to be written, and then the IDE creates a code, which makes } any dumb with or without any intelligence, a programmer. You clearly missed my post on the advantages C# has over Java, IDE notwithstanding. The language itself is more convenient, in that common idioms require fewer lines of code. Sure, you can tell me that Eclipse or whatnot takes the drudgery out of getters and setters, but I can tell you that the C# language itself avoids that drudgery. You can also tell me that there are Java tools to make the unpleasant task of developing a JSP tag easier, but I can tell you that C# and ASP.NET make encapsulating functionality in custom tags comfortable and easy. Furthermore, it is at least three times easier (i.e. takes 1/3 the lines of code) to express event handling in C# than in Java. C# has other advantages as well (I'm particularly excited about the coming C# improvements, which include a very nice way of expressing iteration), but those three are sufficient basis for the points below. If you are an idiot, you can produce crappy code that may actually work. This is, indeed, more likely using Visual Studio (though I'd claim the days of it being truly easy were over when VB6 went away) than in Java. Ultimately, however, if you want solid, dependable, maintainable, scalable software then you need good software engineering, and no IDE or language will change that. If you have good software engineers, it then becomes a concern of how much do they have to do to accomplish the task, which boils down to lines of code. (A better software engineer will accomplish the same task in fewer lines of code, but there is a lower limit on the lines of code required to express any specific functionality.) With C# in particular, and ASP.NET to some extent, the number of lines of code required (whether or not you count lines generated by your IDE of choice) to express any given functionality is generally less than that required to do the same thing in Java. This is based on my experience, of course, but also based on the specific advantages I listed above; they are common idioms, which means that saving a few lines of code in the numerous places in your program where you use those idioms adds up. } Unfortunately in java, we still have a long way to go before we promote } idiots to the coder level.. We are progressing in that direction, but I } guess we still have some time before that..till then I hope to retire.. :) I am not interested in having idiots coding. There are two problems with coding by idiots: 1) They often become managers (or already were) and can't understand why it takes so long for those lazy software engineers to accomplish the tasks before them. I mean, after all, when they slapped together that VB app in a week it worked great! 2) Once the idiots have produced their crappy code, it becomes some software engineer's problem to maintain it, make it scalable, etc. and it's just unpleasant to deal with crappy code. Even worse is when management ties the software engineers' hands and prevents them from treating the crap code as a working prototype (i.e. which should now be rewritten) and forces them to keep it alive as is. Also note that there are huge distinctions between a coder, a programmer, and a software engineer. The coder produces (working?) code. The programmer can produce working code that accomplishes a medium to large task with some eye toward efficiency. The software engineer can produce well thought out, working, maintainable, scalable code that provides hooks for potential future development. I hate working with coders. Programmers are useful, but require guidance. } Thanks and Regards, } Nitish Kumar --Greg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
Gregory Seidman wrote: You clearly missed my post on the advantages C# has over Java Clearly you are missing that we, users of Apache software, *don't care* which is better. news flash: We use both. A large chunk of people here also sigh up for iBatis DAO, we use both C# and Java. http://ibatis.apache.org/index.html - see all the .NET annoucments? In case the IDE of DataSource don't work for you, and you like C#, you can, an Apache will facilitate. .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
Greg- Could you elucidate for me how .NET handles thread synchronisation? I ran into a situation where someone wanted a .NET App coded up in 3 days which worked ok except I ran into a problem where multiple threads were/are accessing the same method..my work around was to install a hack which turned on a Session variable and a pre-validator function would ensure that session variable was indeed turned off before executing the method. Does .NET have any support for synchronized method access? Feel free to contact me offline...as this WAY WAY WAY O/T Many Thanks, Martin- - Original Message - From: Gregory Seidman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: user@struts.apache.org Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 9:40 AM Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 04:41:38AM -0700, Nitish Kumar wrote: } With all due respect to every one (including microsoft).. the advantage of } .NET is nothing but a IDE which is idiot proof. } Any dumb can do a few clicks followed by intelligent editor to prompt and } spoon feed whats to be written, and then the IDE creates a code, which makes } any dumb with or without any intelligence, a programmer. You clearly missed my post on the advantages C# has over Java, IDE notwithstanding. The language itself is more convenient, in that common idioms require fewer lines of code. Sure, you can tell me that Eclipse or whatnot takes the drudgery out of getters and setters, but I can tell you that the C# language itself avoids that drudgery. You can also tell me that there are Java tools to make the unpleasant task of developing a JSP tag easier, but I can tell you that C# and ASP.NET make encapsulating functionality in custom tags comfortable and easy. Furthermore, it is at least three times easier (i.e. takes 1/3 the lines of code) to express event handling in C# than in Java. C# has other advantages as well (I'm particularly excited about the coming C# improvements, which include a very nice way of expressing iteration), but those three are sufficient basis for the points below. If you are an idiot, you can produce crappy code that may actually work. This is, indeed, more likely using Visual Studio (though I'd claim the days of it being truly easy were over when VB6 went away) than in Java. Ultimately, however, if you want solid, dependable, maintainable, scalable software then you need good software engineering, and no IDE or language will change that. If you have good software engineers, it then becomes a concern of how much do they have to do to accomplish the task, which boils down to lines of code. (A better software engineer will accomplish the same task in fewer lines of code, but there is a lower limit on the lines of code required to express any specific functionality.) With C# in particular, and ASP.NET to some extent, the number of lines of code required (whether or not you count lines generated by your IDE of choice) to express any given functionality is generally less than that required to do the same thing in Java. This is based on my experience, of course, but also based on the specific advantages I listed above; they are common idioms, which means that saving a few lines of code in the numerous places in your program where you use those idioms adds up. } Unfortunately in java, we still have a long way to go before we promote } idiots to the coder level.. We are progressing in that direction, but I } guess we still have some time before that..till then I hope to retire.. :) I am not interested in having idiots coding. There are two problems with coding by idiots: 1) They often become managers (or already were) and can't understand why it takes so long for those lazy software engineers to accomplish the tasks before them. I mean, after all, when they slapped together that VB app in a week it worked great! 2) Once the idiots have produced their crappy code, it becomes some software engineer's problem to maintain it, make it scalable, etc. and it's just unpleasant to deal with crappy code. Even worse is when management ties the software engineers' hands and prevents them from treating the crap code as a working prototype (i.e. which should now be rewritten) and forces them to keep it alive as is. Also note that there are huge distinctions between a coder, a programmer, and a software engineer. The coder produces (working?) code. The programmer can produce working code that accomplishes a medium to large task with some eye toward efficiency. The software engineer can produce well thought out, working, maintainable, scalable code that provides hooks for potential future development. I hate working with coders. Programmers are useful, but require guidance. } Thanks and Regards, } Nitish Kumar --Greg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: Struts vs .NET???
Dakota Jack, Do you always accuse people don't understand framework if they don't agree with you? You need evidence to back up your claims. Show us some large struts web sites you had/have worked on so we can discuss them and technologies according to your claims. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Dakota Jack To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 05:28:02 -0700 You only have this experience because you clearly do not even see what te framework does for you. If you don't see that, you see nothing. On 7/2/05, John Henry Xu wrote: The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have to code the framework. That was an interesting statement. My experience was Struts have more codes and configuration files than straight forward JSP+Javabean+taglibs approach that was done before. And also I would insist J2EE vs .Net is a more appropriate comparison than JSF vs .NET (as you suggested in another email). Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Dakota Jack To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:45:41 -0700 The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have to code the framework. On 7/1/05, John Henry Xu wrote: Rick, you are right that you can write struts using very basic text editor. My consideation is based on the cost of software development. Let's say for the same problem that you tried to solve: before your code was 1000 lines. Now in struts, your code are 1500 lines (remember those setters and getters and configuration files.) Assume you use basic text editor, the time you finish your project is 1.5 times than before. Now if this transfer to many projects, the budget you finish those projects will be 1.5 times as before. Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a year, now you need 15 million dollars to do the same work. So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to cut those 5 million dollars. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Rick Reumann To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:35:31 -0400 John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM: struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And in my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and setters. Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set methods, so I wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts apps. I happen to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used to using them. (Yea I know Eclipse is good also..bla bla.. everyone just use what you like.. emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard, whatever:) It's just very misleading to state that you need GUI tools to create Struts apps. -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http
Re: Struts vs .NET???
I was hoping to synchronise the method but I guess the only way to
accomplish this is to 'lock a block'
You really have a good handle on .NET Threading issues
Now back to our regularly scheduled programme..
Thanks Gregory!
Martin-
- Original Message -
From: Gregory Seidman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Martin Gainty [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 10:31:02AM -0400, Martin Gainty wrote:
} Could you elucidate for me how .NET handles thread synchronisation?
} I ran into a situation where someone wanted a .NET App coded up in 3
days
} which worked ok except I ran into a problem where multiple threads
were/are
} accessing the same method..my work around was to install a hack which
} turned on a Session variable and a pre-validator function would ensure
that
} session variable was indeed turned off before executing the method. Does
} .NET have any support for synchronized method access?
} Feel free to contact me offline...as this WAY WAY WAY O/T
C# has shortcut syntax for locking:
class Foo {
void Bar() {
lock(this) {
//do stuff
}
}
}
This is actually shorthand for:
class Foo {
void Bar() {
System.Threading.Monitor.Enter(this);
try {
} finally [
System.Threading.Monitor.Exit(this);
}
}
}
.NET doesn't have synchronized methods like Java, but it has synchronized
blocks (as above) just like Java. For more information, look into the
System.Threading.Monitor class, which provides an implementation of the
standard monitor synchronization primitive. (Google for Hoare monitor
for more on that.)
} Many Thanks,
} Martin-
--Greg
P.S. I took it off-list since it really is offtopic, but I wouldn't mind
if you mentioned to the list that I'd provided the information you
needed.
-
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Re: Struts vs .NET???
netsql wrote: In my shop, GUI tools for Swing or UI, such as VS, are not allowed. You must make UI handcoding it. You'll just have to take my word that it's *MUCH* more productive to hand code a UI when you are building a complex UI. Usually more performant, too: it's easy to code a slow Swing app. Dave Is performant a word? Newton - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
Gregory Seidman wrote: On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 02:16:49AM +0200, Leon Rosenberg wrote: } Heh, } } I hate this kind of discussion... } } Maybe you are the fastest keyboard user on the world... } } I want to see you refactoring a method, lets say change the method name, } with emacs/vi/notepad if there are about 20 other places in code where this } method is called. With an IDE it takes 1 second. With vi? 3 hours? A) If you change the name of a method, especially by the time it's referenced numerous places, you've already screwed up. It shows a lack of forethought in your design (and I don't necessarily mean formal design). B) With appropriate unix tools (ed or perl, in this case), it's under a minute. While that's more than one second, it should be an exceedingly rare operation (see A). } leon --Greg Ooo, I'll hafta disagree on both of these. A) Renaming something to better describe its function isn't a crime or bad design; sometimes it's just a by-product of an iterative design process. Iterative design is pretty much the norm for quick turnaround projects, especially web-based, because programmers have to work at internet speed, not a sane I get to design everything first speed. I'm pretty design-oriented, and reasonably good at it to boot, but I might rename something 2-3x before I'm done with it, for various reasons. These days I can do that trivially; in older days I might not have bothered, and my recent code is the better for it. B) It's WAY quicker and, more importantly, _safer_, to rename using an IDE that knows about the underlying code than with sed/etc. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
John Henry Xu wrote: I was working on Java until I became a manager. AH-HA! NOW we know what's going on here. Money is the No. 1 factor for a owner/manager. That's pathetic, and I would NEVER work for somebody with that opinion. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
Dave Newton wrote: Money is the No. 1 factor for a owner/manager. That's pathetic, and I would NEVER work for somebody with that opinion. Then you may work either 60 hr/week(paid 40 hr/week) or 0 hr/week(paid 0 hr/week) but not in between. So tell me what does the owner of your company think most important? Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Dave Newton To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 16:10:42 -0400 John Henry Xu wrote: I was working on Java until I became a manager. AH-HA! NOW we know what's going on here. Money is the No. 1 factor for a owner/manager. That's pathetic, and I would NEVER work for somebody with that opinion. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
Re: Struts vs .NET???
John Henry Xu wrote: So tell me what does the owner of your company think most important? He is probably thinking how to get rid of ineffective managers. What is your agenda, to come tell us your's is bigger? There are plenty of large Struts sites, if that is what your aim was: http://wiki.apache.org/struts/PoweredBy And now this is realy going to piss you off: You can do Apache Struts MVC in C#: http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/struts/sandbox/trunk/overdrive/Nexus/Core/?rev=208875 .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Struts vs .NET???
Mr .V, Do you know html? You claim you are a programmer? What makes you think http://wiki.apache.org/struts/PoweredBy is a struts site? Don't give wrong information. As for another link of C#, I use Linux so I am really only interest in web services of .net, which I may use. Since I don't want some Empire control internet, I use free or open source. You can not piss me off because how wonderful MS products are because I don't use them in general. Good try. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: netsql To: user@struts.apache.org Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 19:56:23 -0700 John Henry Xu wrote: So tell me what does the owner of your company think most important? He is probably thinking how to get rid of ineffective managers. What is your agenda, to come tell us your's is bigger? There are plenty of large Struts sites, if that is what your aim was: http://wiki.apache.org/struts/PoweredBy And now this is realy going to piss you off: You can do Apache Struts MVC in C#: http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/struts/sandbox/trunk/overdrive/Nexus/Core/?rev=208875 .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
Re: Struts vs .NET???
John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM: struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And in my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and setters. Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set methods, so I wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts apps. I happen to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used to using them. (Yea I know Eclipse is good also..bla bla.. everyone just use what you like.. emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard, whatever:) It's just very misleading to state that you need GUI tools to create Struts apps. -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
Rick Reumann wrote: John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM: you spend lots of time on getters and setters. You can use stuts w/ collections, maps, lists. I used to. No need for beans (I used own baseBeans and got rid of it when I found collections superior). For example muti row updates. Look at dynaMap javadocs. The old struts was beans. It's just very misleading to state that you need GUI tools to create Struts apps. +1. Even in C# I dislike VS, in favor of text based. In HTML, some people used FrontPage (the tools and wizzards and paint by the #'s) some people use TextPad (Vi-m, etc.) For heavy lifting, I think text editor types are much more productive then VS/Frontpage. I don't see how you can say that an IDE XYZ makes one a better developer or a lanage ABC a better one. Is textpad more productive than FrontPage? Yes, IMO. Your millage may differ. .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Struts vs .NET???
V., in any cases of programming, more lines and more classes means more work and more money. Don't you agree? Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: netsql To: user@struts.apache.org Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 18:30:31 -0700 Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a year, now you need 15 million dollars to do the same work. So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to cut those 5 million dollars. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor Ahh.. you are an editor... and not a programmer. In that case your logic is right. .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
Re: Struts vs .NET???
John Henry Xu wrote: V., in any cases of programming, more lines and more classes means more work and more money. Don't you agree? Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor Unless I do fixed bid. Or have my own software company... where you try to reduce costs. So we only do things that reduce cost. I am fine w/ you thinking that FrontPage is more productive that TextPad. In general, more profitable companies advance. .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
netsql (.V) said, Unless I do fixed bid. Or have my own software company... where you try to reduce costs. Have to manage costs in my projects. Or they may be outsourced to ... Many expensive J2EE projects fall into trap of extral code which can be automated by GUI and tools. Microsoft usually do this job better. Hope we learn from them. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: netsql To: user@struts.apache.org Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 18:40:45 -0700 John Henry Xu wrote: V., in any cases of programming, more lines and more classes means more work and more money. Don't you agree? Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor Unless I do fixed bid. Or have my own software company... where you try to reduce costs. So we only do things that reduce cost. I am fine w/ you thinking that FrontPage is more productive that TextPad. In general, more profitable companies advance. .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
Re: Struts vs .NET???
John Henry Xu wrote: code which can be automated by GUI and tools. Microsoft usually do this job better. Hope we learn from them. Jack H. Xu I am sure you write better than me. Look at it this way, you could be a sports journalist and I could be a pro basketball player, and you are writing that I should waer some kind of sneakers to score more. I am sure lots of suits read PC week and decide based on that. There are whole other dimensions that have nothing to do w/ GUI generated code. Like OO. Or Groovy. Look, I can't teach you to dunk the ball. But you can watch me do it! ;-) .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
Here I totally agree with John Henry. Yes, you are a very good programmer if you could beat someone who uses FrontPage and you use only a text pad. This is no doubt. As the analogy I made a couple of days ago, you are too expensive. How long did it take you to be this productive? Obviously, you are expensive for all the hard work you did in the past. But a bum who needs only 10 dollars hours could do the same thing with FrontPage as you would. Why would I pay you 50 dollars an hours to just draw a couple of buttons on a form? --- John Henry Xu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick, you are right that you can write struts using very basic text editor. My consideation is based on the cost of software development. Let's say for the same problem that you tried to solve: before your code was 1000 lines. Now in struts, your code are 1500 lines (remember those setters and getters and configuration files.) Assume you use basic text editor, the time you finish your project is 1.5 times than before. Now if this transfer to many projects, the budget you finish those projects will be 1.5 times as before. Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a year, now you need 15 million dollars to do the same work. So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to cut those 5 million dollars. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Rick Reumann To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:35:31 -0400 John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM: struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And in my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and setters. Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set methods, so I wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts apps. I happen to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used to using them. (Yea I know Eclipse is good also..bla bla.. everyone just use what you like.. emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard, whatever:) It's just very misleading to state that you need GUI tools to create Struts apps. -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
Yan Hu wrote: How long did it take you to be this productive? Obviously, you are expensive for all the hard work you did in the past. But a bum who needs only 10 dollars hours could do the same thing with FrontPage as you would. Why would I pay you 50 dollars an hours to just draw a couple of buttons on a form? --- John Henry Xu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good point. Sometimes you want a Picaso, and sometimes you want a $10 painting. In my shop, GUI tools for Swing or UI, such as VS, are not allowed. You must make UI handcoding it. You'll just have to take my word that it's *MUCH* more productive to hand code a UI when you are building a complex UI. .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET???
Good point. Sometimes you want a Picaso, and sometimes you want a $10 painting. How many people could afford Picaso? That is excatly why .NET is creeping up so fast. As Rod Johnson asked, how many huge huge apps are out there waiting for distributed transaction management provided by EJB containers? . What does Java have to stack up against .NET on desktops? NOTHING. We are still strong on the severside although we lost quite a portion of the pie to .NET. If we lost our last stronghold on the serverside, you would all become bums(on top of outsourcing) no matter how fast you could code in your this pad and that pad. Thanks to JSF and other things such as spring and hibernate,we are in very good shape again. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET??? - Real Stats
Yan Hu wrote: How many people could afford Picaso? That is excatly why .NET is creeping up so fast. After you told us about 1000 times that there are much more jobs for .NET as for java i tested it myself. Monster search for java: 25 pages Monster search for .NET 17 pages +47% for java Stepstone same search: Java - 362 Offers .NET - 98 Offers +269% for java Jobpilot.de Java - 1094 Offers .NET - 334 Offers +227% for Java All searches executed on german pages. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET??? - Real Stats
Yan Hu wrote: How many people could afford Picaso? That is excatly why .NET is creeping up so fast. After you told us about 1000 times that there are much more jobs for .NET as for java i tested it myself. Monster search for java: 25 pages Monster search for .NET 17 pages +47% for java Stepstone same search: Java - 362 Offers .NET - 98 Offers +269% for java Jobpilot.de Java - 1094 Offers .NET - 334 Offers +227% for Java All searches executed on german pages. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET??? - Real Stats
--- Leon Rosenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yan Hu wrote: How many people could afford Picaso? That is excatly why .NET is creeping up so fast. After you told us about 1000 times that there are much more jobs for .NET as for java i tested it myself. Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said there are much more jobs for .NET. How long has been .NET around? 2-3 years..right? How long has Java or J2EE been around? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET??? -This is my Stats
All done on the US sites. www.monster.com .NET more than 1000 and 20 pages Java more than 1000 and 20 pages www.dice.com .NET 8490 listings Java 11159 listings www.indeed.com (an aggregator for all major job sites in the US) .NET 68,599 listings Java 63,451 listings When you have a debate, try not to win the debate by by putting words in others mouths and not to exaggerate things (such as 1000 times). Considering .NET has not been around as long as java/j2ee, don't you think the numbers are scary? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Struts vs .NET???
.V, I was working on Java until I became a manager. The discussion seems go to the direction of GUI vs. no GUI. My intention was automating the coding process. In struts and EJB, lots of codes fit into patterns and can be automated. I was actually developing command line automation utilities to do that without GUI. Another example of good automation is Ant and NAnt that can automate routine build jobs and thus reduce the cost of software development. Money is the No. 1 factor for a owner/manager. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: netsql To: user@struts.apache.org Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 19:54:42 -0700 Yan Hu wrote: How long did it take you to be this productive? Obviously, you are expensive for all the hard work you did in the past. But a bum who needs only 10 dollars hours could do the same thing with FrontPage as you would. Why would I pay you 50 dollars an hours to just draw a couple of buttons on a form? --- John Henry Xu wrote: Good point. Sometimes you want a Picaso, and sometimes you want a $10 painting. In my shop, GUI tools for Swing or UI, such as VS, are not allowed. You must make UI handcoding it. You'll just have to take my word that it's *MUCH* more productive to hand code a UI when you are building a complex UI. .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
Re: Struts vs .NET??? -This is my Stats
When you have a debate, try not to win the debate by by putting words in others mouths and not to exaggerate things (such as 1000 times). Considering .NET has not been around as long as java/j2ee, don't you think the numbers are scary? No I don't, and know why? Here is a quote from a typical job offer which comes out at monster (this one was from uk) when you search for .NET: As a VB Developer, this is an opportunity for you to team up and work alongside some of the top developers around and therefore to be considered for this role, you will need to have at least 2 years solid Visual Basic experience and a good understanding of the development of ActiveX components, COM and .Net. Those who have and experience of the financial market or have Real time software development then that will be beneficial with your application. Salary 45K pounds in london... That's like 20K euro in germany or 30K USD in US. Sorry, this is not my kind of job :-) You see you are missing the whole point here. I have been a long time believer that J2EE is good for big honking things. But .NET is eating up the small business sectors. I am talking about small to medium sized apps here. large sites also use .NET such as www.dell.com and I believe there are a lot more out there I am too lazy to google it right now.. I believe you could find them yourself... I think the larger problem for a java developer in a small business sector is PHP or even Perl. .NET is mostly irrelevant, at least in germany. But know what, it was dumb from me, to get on this discussion. I admit my defeat, you won, all praise .NET. :-) Leon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET??? -This is my Stats
When you have a debate, try not to win the debate by by putting words in others mouths and not to exaggerate things (such as 1000 times). Considering .NET has not been around as long as java/j2ee, don't you think the numbers are scary? No I don't, and know why? Here is a quote from a typical job offer which comes out at monster (this one was from uk) when you search for .NET: As a VB Developer, this is an opportunity for you to team up and work alongside some of the top developers around and therefore to be considered for this role, you will need to have at least 2 years solid Visual Basic experience and a good understanding of the development of ActiveX components, COM and .Net. Those who have and experience of the financial market or have Real time software development then that will be beneficial with your application. Salary 45K pounds in london... That's like 20K euro in germany or 30K USD in US. Sorry, this is not my kind of job :-) You see you are missing the whole point here. I have been a long time believer that J2EE is good for big honking things. But .NET is eating up the small business sectors. I am talking about small to medium sized apps here. large sites also use .NET such as www.dell.com and I believe there are a lot more out there I am too lazy to google it right now.. I believe you could find them yourself... I think the larger problem for a java developer in a small business sector is PHP or even Perl. .NET is mostly irrelevant, at least in germany. But know what, it was dumb from me, to get on this discussion. I admit my defeat, you won, all praise .NET. :-) Leon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET??? -This is my Stats
Leon Rosenberg wrote: I think the larger problem for a java developer in a small business sector is PHP or even Perl. .NET is mostly irrelevant, at least in germany. Agree with you that PHP snd Perl and MySQL are popular on web these days. See the blogs and forums, most are PHP. This makes me wonder where java-based applications such as Java Face, EJB or Struts played on the large public web applications. There must be some economic reasons behind it. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) - Original Message - From: Leon Rosenberg To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? -This is my Stats Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 03:53:01 +0200 When you have a debate, try not to win the debate by by putting words in others mouths and not to exaggerate things (such as 1000 times). Considering .NET has not been around as long as java/j2ee, don't you think the numbers are scary? No I don't, and know why? Here is a quote from a typical job offer which comes out at monster (this one was from uk) when you search for .NET: As a VB Developer, this is an opportunity for you to team up and work alongside some of the top developers around and therefore to be considered for this role, you will need to have at least 2 years solid Visual Basic experience and a good understanding of the development of ActiveX components, COM and .Net. Those who have and experience of the financial market or have Real time software development then that will be beneficial with your application. Salary 45K pounds in london... That's like 20K euro in germany or 30K USD in US. Sorry, this is not my kind of job :-) You see you are missing the whole point here. I have been a long time believer that J2EE is good for big honking things. But .NET is eating up the small business sectors. I am talking about small to medium sized apps here. large sites also use .NET such as www.dell.com and I believe there are a lot more out there I am too lazy to google it right now.. I believe you could find them yourself... I think the larger problem for a java developer in a small business sector is PHP or even Perl. .NET is mostly irrelevant, at least in germany. But know what, it was dumb from me, to get on this discussion. I admit my defeat, you won, all praise .NET. :-) Leon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor http://www.usanalyst.com http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
Re: Struts vs .NET???
John Henry Xu wrote: .V, I was working on Java until I became a manager. Hmmm. In struts and EJB, lots of codes fit into patterns and can be automated. If you think automating code generation is your best skill, go for it. It's telling that you selected EJB. You can generate more code in C# also. Money is the No. 1 factor for a owner/manager. Agreed on that. So it's for software engineer. Anyone can write code. Writing it effectively is the way to it. .V Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs .NET??? -This is my Stats
On 7/1/05, John Henry Xu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leon Rosenberg wrote: I think the larger problem for a java developer in a small business sector is PHP or even Perl. .NET is mostly irrelevant, at least in germany. Agree with you that PHP snd Perl and MySQL are popular on web these days. See the blogs and forums, most are PHP. This makes me wonder where java-based applications such as Java Face, EJB or Struts played on the large public web applications. There must be some economic reasons behind it. For public Internet sites, one of the issues for the Java platform is the relative number of hosting sites that have Java technology available, versus (say) PHP or PERL. In turn, this is related to a relative lack of knowledge on the part of ISP sysadmins about how to set up and administer the Java stuff (not that it's any harder than configuring httpd.conf ... it's just different). A really useful open source project would be to provide one or more completely integrated packages (Apache HTTPD + Tomcat, Apache HTTPD + Geronimo, Tomcat standalone, Geronimo standalone, etc.) that have everything an app developer would like to see (database, JSF, JSTL, Hibernate, ...) and are trivially easy for an interested ISP to download and install, coupled with sysadmin-oriented documentation that helps them hook in the facilities to the rest of their environment. It would need to include, for example, options that allowed the ISP to sell both shared JVM and standalone JVM environments to their customers (probably for a lower and higher price, respectively), with extra points for supporting goodies like distributed applications. The number of public webapps (no matter what the implementation technology) is actually pretty small compared to the number of applications (no matter what the impementation technology) behind the firewall, so this situation isn't a total surprise ... but making it easier for ISPs to provide a nice Java runtime environment would go a long ways towards helping the availability of Java webapps on the public part of the net. Jack H. Xu Technology columnist and editor Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
