Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Tom Arilla]

I do not know this list, just subscribed to "test the waters", but after
reading this thread I have in general positive impressions, i.e. there was
a (mostly) sensible discussion and a solution to "the" bug. Possibly I will
join you one day under my real name :)

Unfortunately there was some damage within the old bug database, for
whatever reason (a bad atmosphere in a corporation which propagated into
bug comments? a general trend gnome3-style? whatever) but now the scheme
changed, it seems.


Le jeu. 18 oct. 2018 à 14:40, Bertrand Delacretaz 
a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 2:17 PM R. Diez
>  wrote:>
>
> > ...You need to clearly indicate who is an official team member and who
> is not, either with a
> > project e-mail address, or with a proper e-mail signature...
>
> In general, that's not desired nor useful - everybody who collaborates
> in good faith here is welcome.
>
> Some decisions are made by the NetBeans PPMC (and the Incubator PMC
> currently while the project is in incubation) and then such roles do
> matter, you'll sometimes see people voting with "+1 (binding)" to
> indicate that they have a binding vote. But even then all votes are
> welcome.
>
> In this case I'll sign with the title that I have here, to help
> explain why I'm making these statements - but that doesn't mean anyone
> who does not have a title should shut up.
>
> -Bertrand (incubation mentor for NetBeans)
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

Hi,

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 2:17 PM R. Diez
 wrote:>

> ...You need to clearly indicate who is an official team member and who is 
> not, either with a
> project e-mail address, or with a proper e-mail signature...

In general, that's not desired nor useful - everybody who collaborates
in good faith here is welcome.

Some decisions are made by the NetBeans PPMC (and the Incubator PMC
currently while the project is in incubation) and then such roles do
matter, you'll sometimes see people voting with "+1 (binding)" to
indicate that they have a binding vote. But even then all votes are
welcome.

In this case I'll sign with the title that I have here, to help
explain why I'm making these statements - but that doesn't mean anyone
who does not have a title should shut up.

-Bertrand (incubation mentor for NetBeans)

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Geertjan Wielenga]

In Apache projects, we are all members of the team together, including you.
:-)

Indeed, we do need to manage the mailing list together, and that includes
you, especially when you write "I am also concerned about the NetBeans
project and have noticed a certain degree of carelessness in the past" --
to me, that means that you're going to be actively contributing to Apache
NetBeans, since otherwise your concern is just words, we need action, we
need you to consider joining the NetCAT program, for example, and help out
identifying and fixing bugs:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/NetCAT+10.0+Participants

Consider that every time I respond to an e-mail is time I could be spending
on identifying and fixing bugs, the same for you, the same for anyone else.

Yes, we are prepared to properly manage the mailing list -- but are you
prepared to properly participate in the project?

Thanks,

Gj


On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 2:17 PM R. Diez 
wrote:

>
> > On behalf of everyone, I apologize, and we REALLY need you. :-)
> > [...]
>
>
> I just checked and your name appears in the official web site as a
> committer, so you are a member of the team. But not everyone is going to
> check. You should not expect your users to go and read the Apache
> documentation. If I did that with every open-source project I use, I would
> not have time to do anything else.
>
>
> The NetBeans team needs to properly manage this mailing list. You need to
> clearly counter annoying comments. You need to isolate and if necessary
> remove onerous people. You need to clearly indicate who is an official team
> member and who is not, either with a project e-mail address, or with a
> proper e-mail signature.
>
> Otherwise, aggravating behaviour will quickly taint your reputation.
>
> If you are not prepared to do this, it could be better to close the
> mailing list until you can, or maybe move it somewhere where it is clearly
> labelled as "unofficial" or "users help other users". In my opinion, it is
> better to admit that the current team members are not looking much at the
> mailing list, or do not care too much about it, rather than giving a false
> impression about how the team communicates.
>
> Regards,
>   rdiez
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[R. Diez]

> On behalf of everyone, I apologize, and we REALLY need you. :-)
> [...]


I just checked and your name appears in the official web site as a committer, 
so you are a member of the team. But not everyone is going to check. You should 
not expect your users to go and read the Apache documentation. If I did that 
with every open-source project I use, I would not have time to do anything else.


The NetBeans team needs to properly manage this mailing list. You need to 
clearly counter annoying comments. You need to isolate and if necessary remove 
onerous people. You need to clearly indicate who is an official team member and 
who is not, either with a project e-mail address, or with a proper e-mail 
signature.

Otherwise, aggravating behaviour will quickly taint your reputation.

If you are not prepared to do this, it could be better to close the mailing 
list until you can, or maybe move it somewhere where it is clearly labelled as 
"unofficial" or "users help other users". In my opinion, it is better to admit 
that the current team members are not looking much at the mailing list, or do 
not care too much about it, rather than giving a false impression about how the 
team communicates.

Regards,
  rdiez

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Geertjan Wielenga]

On behalf of everyone, I apologize, and we REALLY need you. :-) People
willing to spend time in this community are absolute stars and critical to
the continued success of the project. We're all on the same page here and
hope you'll stay on it because the story is far from over. (Phew, managed
to sustain that metaphor.)

Gj

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 10:18 AM Tom Arilla  wrote:

> Neil,
>
> I was trying to help. I found out numerous threads concerning very
> diferent IDEs, with a lot of people for which it was an important problem.
> The tone was not always the best when I was talking about the tone used by
> Netbeans devs towards their users, but I said that I was sorry for this.
> Does not matter, you just keep calling me a troll etc. You who raise points
> like that it can be important for Intellij but not for Netbeans when we are
> talking about basic, IDE-independent editor behavior etc.
>
> I will check if you are an influential Netbeans developer and if yes, I
> will migrate as soon as possible, because I do not want to use an IDE made
> by people with an aggressive and probably very biased attitude towards me.
> Not that I care personally, but for practical reasons like a general help
> and bug fixes.
>
> I would like to thank GJ and Rdiez for their help, insightful remarks and
> a positive tone. I am not willing to continue this thread, thank you.
>
>
> Le mer. 17 oct. 2018 à 12:29, Neil C Smith  a
> écrit :
>
>> On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 at 11:00, R. Diez 
>> wrote:
>> > I cannot remember that he said this was an essential issue.
>>
>> Well, he did.
>>
>> > I only stepped in because I do not like the way the original poster was
>> been treated.
>>
>> And I only stepped in because I did not like how people who are
>> volunteering their time to this project were being treated! ;-)  Let's
>> keep it civil and constructive, we can all hopefully agree on that ..
>>
>> .. the bit that interests me is this.
>>
>> > But anyway, now that the project is under Apache, I would find it
>> interesting to know how the project actually prioritises issues at the
>> moment. Is there a "board of prioritisers", and who sits there?
>>
>> If there is, you're on it!
>>
>> > The Ubuntu Launchpad platform has a "this bug affects me too" button.
>> Bugs with many users get a flame icon. That gives you an indication whether
>> many people are affected.
>>
>> As a long term Ubuntu user I'm aware of this (and unfortunately how
>> often it also gets ignored! :-) ) but from a UI point of view it's
>> better.  Both the old and new issue trackers have a voting link, but
>> do users use them, does the project really take account of them, etc.
>> etc.?  Very few people voted on the issue that kicked off this thread
>> for example.  But why?  Either it wasn't important, or people missed
>> the ability to vote on it, or assumed that wasn't useful?  eg. did you
>> not see the issue, or did you choose not to vote on it?
>>
>> So, yes, from a web / infra point of view, improving signposting and
>> visibility of "this affects me too" might be a good thing to work on.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Neil
>>
>

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Tom Arilla]

Neil,

I was trying to help. I found out numerous threads concerning very diferent
IDEs, with a lot of people for which it was an important problem. The tone
was not always the best when I was talking about the tone used by Netbeans
devs towards their users, but I said that I was sorry for this. Does not
matter, you just keep calling me a troll etc. You who raise points like
that it can be important for Intellij but not for Netbeans when we are
talking about basic, IDE-independent editor behavior etc.

I will check if you are an influential Netbeans developer and if yes, I
will migrate as soon as possible, because I do not want to use an IDE made
by people with an aggressive and probably very biased attitude towards me.
Not that I care personally, but for practical reasons like a general help
and bug fixes.

I would like to thank GJ and Rdiez for their help, insightful remarks and a
positive tone. I am not willing to continue this thread, thank you.


Le mer. 17 oct. 2018 à 12:29, Neil C Smith  a écrit :

> On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 at 11:00, R. Diez  wrote:
> > I cannot remember that he said this was an essential issue.
>
> Well, he did.
>
> > I only stepped in because I do not like the way the original poster was
> been treated.
>
> And I only stepped in because I did not like how people who are
> volunteering their time to this project were being treated! ;-)  Let's
> keep it civil and constructive, we can all hopefully agree on that ..
>
> .. the bit that interests me is this.
>
> > But anyway, now that the project is under Apache, I would find it
> interesting to know how the project actually prioritises issues at the
> moment. Is there a "board of prioritisers", and who sits there?
>
> If there is, you're on it!
>
> > The Ubuntu Launchpad platform has a "this bug affects me too" button.
> Bugs with many users get a flame icon. That gives you an indication whether
> many people are affected.
>
> As a long term Ubuntu user I'm aware of this (and unfortunately how
> often it also gets ignored! :-) ) but from a UI point of view it's
> better.  Both the old and new issue trackers have a voting link, but
> do users use them, does the project really take account of them, etc.
> etc.?  Very few people voted on the issue that kicked off this thread
> for example.  But why?  Either it wasn't important, or people missed
> the ability to vote on it, or assumed that wasn't useful?  eg. did you
> not see the issue, or did you choose not to vote on it?
>
> So, yes, from a web / infra point of view, improving signposting and
> visibility of "this affects me too" might be a good thing to work on.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Neil C Smith]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 at 11:00, R. Diez  wrote:
> I cannot remember that he said this was an essential issue.

Well, he did.

> I only stepped in because I do not like the way the original poster was been 
> treated.

And I only stepped in because I did not like how people who are
volunteering their time to this project were being treated! ;-)  Let's
keep it civil and constructive, we can all hopefully agree on that ..

.. the bit that interests me is this.

> But anyway, now that the project is under Apache, I would find it interesting 
> to know how the project actually prioritises issues at the moment. Is there a 
> "board of prioritisers", and who sits there?

If there is, you're on it!

> The Ubuntu Launchpad platform has a "this bug affects me too" button. Bugs 
> with many users get a flame icon. That gives you an indication whether many 
> people are affected.

As a long term Ubuntu user I'm aware of this (and unfortunately how
often it also gets ignored! :-) ) but from a UI point of view it's
better.  Both the old and new issue trackers have a voting link, but
do users use them, does the project really take account of them, etc.
etc.?  Very few people voted on the issue that kicked off this thread
for example.  But why?  Either it wasn't important, or people missed
the ability to vote on it, or assumed that wasn't useful?  eg. did you
not see the issue, or did you choose not to vote on it?

So, yes, from a web / infra point of view, improving signposting and
visibility of "this affects me too" might be a good thing to work on.

Best wishes,

Neil

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Geertjan Wielenga]

It is somehow STILL unclear how an Apache project works. :-)

Here is how ANY Apache project actually prioritises issues, not just at the
moment, but always: you want an issue to be fixed? You fix it. Or you
convince someone else to fix it.

Please spend sometime at apache.org. NetBeans is an Apache project, nothing
more, nothing less.

Gj


On Wednesday, October 17, 2018, R. Diez 
wrote:

>
>
> > [...]
>
> > but you've misunderstood me -
>
> > I'm definitely not trying to dismiss the issue.
> > [...]
>
>
> This is probably true. But it does come across that way.
>
>
>
> > I did suggest that the OP a) stop taking a
> > trolling attitude to the project
>
> I believe mentioning the "troll" word is a good example of the
> misunderstanding we are talking about.
>
> Trolling is a negative term that immediately brings up emotion on the
> receiving side. I would use it more sparingly, say, only for obvious trolls.
>
> I do not think the original poster was actually trying to troll. I am also
> concerned about the NetBeans project and have noticed a certain degree of
> carelessness in the past. After a radical organisational change such as the
> migration to Apache, it is a valid point to raise whether the past
> attitudes are likely to persist.
>
> The original poster might have expressed that in better terms. But then
> again, it could have been worse. He could have said "are the same idiots
> still there"? }8-)
>
>
> In fact, it has been a useful discussion. Watching this mailing list does
> give the impression that the project is not going well, especially on the
> communication side. It has reinforced my determination to try Eclipse out.
> Although I am also quite lazy...
>
>
>
> > b) stop claiming this issue is "essential" in comparison to many other
> > things in the old or new bug trackers without evidence.
>
> I cannot remember that he said this was an essential issue. I think he
> just picked it as an example of bad attitude in the past, not because of
> the bug itself.
>
>
>
> > [...]
> > I'm just saying that every project I've ever worked on or
> > with has a way to prioritise which problems get addressed.
> > [...]
> > You said this annoyed you but you didn't post about
> > it?  Why?  What might be done to improve that feedback mechanism?
>
> I am just a NetBeans user with no particularly high Java skills. I also do
> not have that much time available (except maybe for today!). I must confess
> that my patience threshold is also rather low. I only stepped in because I
> do not like the way the original poster was been treated.
>
>
> But anyway, now that the project is under Apache, I would find it
> interesting to know how the project actually prioritises issues at the
> moment. Is there a "board of prioritisers", and who sits there?
>
>
> The Ubuntu Launchpad platform has a "this bug affects me too" button. Bugs
> with many users get a flame icon. That gives you an indication whether many
> people are affected. I haven't looked yet under Apache, but, if there is
> such a counter, and it does get taken into consideration, it may be worth
> documenting on the web that affected users should subscribe to bugs in
> order to raise their priority. Although I would personally welcome a "this
> bugs me too, but do not bug me with many e-mail notifications" option. I
> already get too much e-mail.
>
>
> Regards,
>   rdiez
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[R. Diez]

> [...]

> but you've misunderstood me -

> I'm definitely not trying to dismiss the issue.
> [...]


This is probably true. But it does come across that way.



> I did suggest that the OP a) stop taking a
> trolling attitude to the project

I believe mentioning the "troll" word is a good example of the misunderstanding 
we are talking about.

Trolling is a negative term that immediately brings up emotion on the receiving 
side. I would use it more sparingly, say, only for obvious trolls.

I do not think the original poster was actually trying to troll. I am also 
concerned about the NetBeans project and have noticed a certain degree of 
carelessness in the past. After a radical organisational change such as the 
migration to Apache, it is a valid point to raise whether the past attitudes 
are likely to persist.

The original poster might have expressed that in better terms. But then again, 
it could have been worse. He could have said "are the same idiots still there"? 
}8-)


In fact, it has been a useful discussion. Watching this mailing list does give 
the impression that the project is not going well, especially on the 
communication side. It has reinforced my determination to try Eclipse out. 
Although I am also quite lazy...



> b) stop claiming this issue is "essential" in comparison to many other
> things in the old or new bug trackers without evidence.

I cannot remember that he said this was an essential issue. I think he just 
picked it as an example of bad attitude in the past, not because of the bug 
itself.



> [...]
> I'm just saying that every project I've ever worked on or
> with has a way to prioritise which problems get addressed.
> [...]
> You said this annoyed you but you didn't post about
> it?  Why?  What might be done to improve that feedback mechanism?

I am just a NetBeans user with no particularly high Java skills. I also do not 
have that much time available (except maybe for today!). I must confess that my 
patience threshold is also rather low. I only stepped in because I do not like 
the way the original poster was been treated.


But anyway, now that the project is under Apache, I would find it interesting 
to know how the project actually prioritises issues at the moment. Is there a 
"board of prioritisers", and who sits there?


The Ubuntu Launchpad platform has a "this bug affects me too" button. Bugs with 
many users get a flame icon. That gives you an indication whether many people 
are affected. I haven't looked yet under Apache, but, if there is such a 
counter, and it does get taken into consideration, it may be worth documenting 
on the web that affected users should subscribe to bugs in order to raise their 
priority. Although I would personally welcome a "this bugs me too, but do not 
bug me with many e-mail notifications" option. I already get too much e-mail.


Regards,
  rdiez

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Neil C Smith]

Hi,

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 at 07:47, R. Diez  wrote:
> Your continuous attempts to dismiss this issue are actually more annoying. If 
> you think about it, it is counterproductive.

I'm sorry you're annoyed by what I said, but you've misunderstood me -
I'm definitely not trying to dismiss the issue.  Nor do I have any
more power to do so than you.  In fact, personally I'd be quite happy
to see an enhancement for this, and said so earlier, if it doesn't
remove the existing behaviour.

I did suggest that the OP a) stop taking a trolling attitude to the
project and engage with the way things work now in Apache, and b) stop
claiming this issue is "essential" in comparison to many other things
in the old or new bug trackers without evidence.

> Your argumentation there has a lot of holes. It is actually a rather good 
> example of the attitude problem ...
> Many developers spend the whole day inside NetBeans. Developers like me care 
> a lot about details.

I'm a developer using NetBeans every day too!  I'm no different to you
here.  I'm just saying that every project I've ever worked on or with
has a way to prioritise which problems get addressed.  The previous
bugzilla had its quirks, and I'm not sure the current JIRA is any
better at this.  You said this annoyed you but you didn't post about
it?  Why?  What might be done to improve that feedback mechanism?

Best wishes,

Neil

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[R. Diez]

> Essential to *whom*?!  Doesn't look like that many users were that bothered!
It is rather obvious that such a non-standard behaviour has the potential to 
annoy people. It does annoy me too, even though I never found it so important 
to post about it.


Your continuous attempts to dismiss this issue are actually more annoying. If 
you think about it, it is counterproductive. Just acknowledging it, even 
without fixing it, would probably have a better effect.


> I can show you that attitude in practically every single
> [...]

Your argumentation there has a lot of holes. It is actually a rather good 
example of the attitude problem the original poster was talking about. It comes 
across as annoying. In fact, that kind of answer will probably turn more people 
away than the problem itself.

Many developers spend the whole day inside NetBeans. Developers like me care a 
lot about details. If it shows that you only care about the big picture, about 
the majority of users, and are dismissive elsewhere, you will quickly lose 
trust. You have already seen the first negative effect: annoyed people will not 
shut up and will keep filling the mailing list.

On this particular issue, I personally would have said the following:

"I can see why that could annoy people. On the other hand, it is not clear how 
many people would like to keep the exiting behaviour. A user-interface option 
in xxx called xxx would probably be the best way forward. Unfortunately, we are 
a little short of human power right now. Could you provide a patch yourself?"
Regards,
  rdiez

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Neil C Smith]

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 at 14:16, Tom Arilla  wrote:
> Look Neil, one person called it "the most viewed IntelliJ issue", you called 
> it "essential to *whom*?!", very well, but it is just few lines of easy code, 
> practically zero maintenance.
...
> Do you see any similarities? Can you show me one case of such an attitude of 
> IntelliJ devs towards their users?

I can show you that attitude in practically every single software
project - prioritise bugs and features that affect the most users.
That specific NetBeans bug had few votes and no duplicates.  So what
do you expect should be done in those cases?  I had issues accepted
and fixed, and issues rejected, in the old bug tracker.  And I expect
the same going forward.  What gets prioritised for development in any
project should not come down to who shouts that their issue is
"essential" the loudest!

And this is not the IntelliJ project, so just because an issue is the
most viewed there doesn't correlate with it being important to users
here.

If you think something is essential, explain why and find people who
agree.  That is all that I am saying.  I'm wondering why you find that
so controversial?

Best wishes,

Neil

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Glenn Holmer]

On 10/16/2018 08:47 AM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> Indeed. Ask not what NetBeans can do for you, ask what you can do for
> NetBeans! :-)

That would look great on a t-shirt!

-- 
Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
"After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Geertjan Wielenga]

Indeed. Ask not what NetBeans can do for you, ask what you can do for
NetBeans! :-)

Gj

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 3:46 PM Tom Arilla  wrote:

>
> Where's your PR, then?
>>
>
> I was going to make it but Jan has already provided a solution. But I
> understand that as Netbeans is now made on devs' own time, in case of a
> bug/enhancement I should ask less and participate more.
>
>

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Tom Arilla]

> Where's your PR, then?
>

I was going to make it but Jan has already provided a solution. But I
understand that as Netbeans is now made on devs' own time, in case of a
bug/enhancement I should ask less and participate more.

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Glenn Holmer]

On 10/16/2018 08:15 AM, Tom Arilla wrote:
> it is just few lines of easy code, practically zero maintenance.


Where's your PR, then?

-- 
Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
"After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Geertjan Wielenga]

I promise you, we will never tell you to go away.

We will always tell you to go here and provide the pull request to solve
your problem: https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans/pulls

Gj

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 3:16 PM Tom Arilla  wrote:

> Look Neil, one person called it "the most viewed IntelliJ issue", you
> called it "essential to *whom*?!", very well, but it is just few lines of
> easy code, practically zero maintenance.
>
> This behaviour is intentional. I am sorry you hate it but there are users who 
> love it. There is no plan to change it.
>
> Essential to *whom*?!  Doesn't look like that many users were that bothered!
>
> Do you see any similarities? Can you show me one case of such an attitude
> of IntelliJ devs towards their users?
>
> And why it matters? Because one day, I may find some other behavior in
> Netbeans which me (and a lot of others) find troublesome, and which can be
> corrected with few lines of easy code and an option hidden in some
> registry, practically zero maintenance. But we we may just be told to go
> away, because "I am sorry, go away".
>
> Why should I risk it?
>
>
>
>
> Le mar. 16 oct. 2018 à 14:01, Neil C Smith  a
> écrit :
>
>> On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 at 12:05, Tom Arilla  wrote:
>> > Thank you for the information, but the thread started because of an
>> essential bug ignored for many years
>>
>> Essential to *whom*?!  Doesn't look like that many users were that
>> bothered!
>>
>> > By the way, didn't you make a whole database of open bugs obsolete,
>> with no migration attempts?
>>
>> Actually, that's not true.  There was a conscious decision not to
>> migrate everything in it.  But the old bug tracker is still there, and
>> in the last web chat we discussed maintaining a read-only clone of it
>> on Apache infrastructure.  Which I hope will happen, although it
>> remains to be seen if the content in it flags any concerns for Oracle.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Neil
>>
>

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Tom Arilla]

Look Neil, one person called it "the most viewed IntelliJ issue", you
called it "essential to *whom*?!", very well, but it is just few lines of
easy code, practically zero maintenance.

This behaviour is intentional. I am sorry you hate it but there are
users who love it. There is no plan to change it.

Essential to *whom*?!  Doesn't look like that many users were that bothered!

Do you see any similarities? Can you show me one case of such an attitude
of IntelliJ devs towards their users?

And why it matters? Because one day, I may find some other behavior in
Netbeans which me (and a lot of others) find troublesome, and which can be
corrected with few lines of easy code and an option hidden in some
registry, practically zero maintenance. But we we may just be told to go
away, because "I am sorry, go away".

Why should I risk it?




Le mar. 16 oct. 2018 à 14:01, Neil C Smith  a écrit :

> On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 at 12:05, Tom Arilla  wrote:
> > Thank you for the information, but the thread started because of an
> essential bug ignored for many years
>
> Essential to *whom*?!  Doesn't look like that many users were that
> bothered!
>
> > By the way, didn't you make a whole database of open bugs obsolete, with
> no migration attempts?
>
> Actually, that's not true.  There was a conscious decision not to
> migrate everything in it.  But the old bug tracker is still there, and
> in the last web chat we discussed maintaining a read-only clone of it
> on Apache infrastructure.  Which I hope will happen, although it
> remains to be seen if the content in it flags any concerns for Oracle.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Geertjan Wielenga]

Hey, that's awesome. :-)

Gj


On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:43 PM Tom Arilla  wrote:

> Hi, I was just contacted by Jan Lahoda who told me that to do! If anyone
> ever searches for the same thing via google:
>
> Netbeans Disable cut/copy line when no selection is made *Bug 192613*
>  solution
> -J-Dorg.netbeans.editor.disable.no.selection.copy=true
>
> I wish Netbeans devs a happy transition and great ideas in making the IDE
> better. Big thanks Jan!
>
>
> Le mar. 16 oct. 2018 à 13:17, Geertjan Wielenga
>  a écrit :
>
>> No, NetBeans is much more than a Java IDE. I am sorry, I can extend this
>> discussion with more and more responses or I can do what is needed right
>> now, which is we need to work on NetCAT now:
>>
>> http://netbeans-vm.apache.org/synergy/client/app/#/run/29/v/2
>>
>> The thread started because you had a ridiculously easy thing that needed
>> to be done and that you haven't done for many years -- you can do so right
>> now and provide the pull request here:
>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans/pulls
>>
>> Gj
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:05 PM Tom Arilla  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> >  Just please stop referring to these stupid surveys
>>>
>>> Geertjan, do you have a proof that they are stupid? I think not, just
>>> like I do not have a proof that they are wise.
>>>
>>>
 (do you know anything at all about who filled in those surveys, for
 example?)

>>>
>>> Yes. Look into the link if you want.
>>>
>>> -- NetBeans has a community of users and that's who we're focused on
 supporting.

>>>
>>> Netbeans is mostly a general Java IDE. Aren't you pretending a little
>>> bit that it is not the case?
>>>
>>>
 If there are missing features, file a bug report and ideally provide a
 pull request to provide the fix.

>>>
>>> Thank you for the information, but the thread started because of an
>>> essential bug ignored for many years. I will provide a patch for it, even
>>> that I am a bit afraid that it will be wasted. By the way, didn't you make
>>> a whole database of open bugs obsolete, with no migration attempts?
>>>
>>>

>>> Thanks,


>>> Thank you as well, and all the best in making Netbeans better under the
>>> new formula. Happy transition.
>>>
>>>

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Neil C Smith]

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 at 12:05, Tom Arilla  wrote:
> Thank you for the information, but the thread started because of an essential 
> bug ignored for many years

Essential to *whom*?!  Doesn't look like that many users were that bothered!

> By the way, didn't you make a whole database of open bugs obsolete, with no 
> migration attempts?

Actually, that's not true.  There was a conscious decision not to
migrate everything in it.  But the old bug tracker is still there, and
in the last web chat we discussed maintaining a read-only clone of it
on Apache infrastructure.  Which I hope will happen, although it
remains to be seen if the content in it flags any concerns for Oracle.

Best wishes,

Neil

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Jan Lahoda]

I am sorry for writing offline - I keep forgetting doing "Reply" on some of
the lists won't reply to the whole list.

Jan

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:43 PM Tom Arilla  wrote:

> Hi, I was just contacted by Jan Lahoda who told me that to do! If anyone
> ever searches for the same thing via google:
>
> Netbeans Disable cut/copy line when no selection is made *Bug 192613*
>  solution
> -J-Dorg.netbeans.editor.disable.no.selection.copy=true
>
> I wish Netbeans devs a happy transition and great ideas in making the IDE
> better. Big thanks Jan!
>
>
> Le mar. 16 oct. 2018 à 13:17, Geertjan Wielenga
>  a écrit :
>
>> No, NetBeans is much more than a Java IDE. I am sorry, I can extend this
>> discussion with more and more responses or I can do what is needed right
>> now, which is we need to work on NetCAT now:
>>
>> http://netbeans-vm.apache.org/synergy/client/app/#/run/29/v/2
>>
>> The thread started because you had a ridiculously easy thing that needed
>> to be done and that you haven't done for many years -- you can do so right
>> now and provide the pull request here:
>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans/pulls
>>
>> Gj
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:05 PM Tom Arilla  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> >  Just please stop referring to these stupid surveys
>>>
>>> Geertjan, do you have a proof that they are stupid? I think not, just
>>> like I do not have a proof that they are wise.
>>>
>>>
 (do you know anything at all about who filled in those surveys, for
 example?)

>>>
>>> Yes. Look into the link if you want.
>>>
>>> -- NetBeans has a community of users and that's who we're focused on
 supporting.

>>>
>>> Netbeans is mostly a general Java IDE. Aren't you pretending a little
>>> bit that it is not the case?
>>>
>>>
 If there are missing features, file a bug report and ideally provide a
 pull request to provide the fix.

>>>
>>> Thank you for the information, but the thread started because of an
>>> essential bug ignored for many years. I will provide a patch for it, even
>>> that I am a bit afraid that it will be wasted. By the way, didn't you make
>>> a whole database of open bugs obsolete, with no migration attempts?
>>>
>>>

>>> Thanks,


>>> Thank you as well, and all the best in making Netbeans better under the
>>> new formula. Happy transition.
>>>
>>>

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Tom Arilla]

Hi, I was just contacted by Jan Lahoda who told me that to do! If anyone
ever searches for the same thing via google:

Netbeans Disable cut/copy line when no selection is made *Bug 192613*
 solution
-J-Dorg.netbeans.editor.disable.no.selection.copy=true

I wish Netbeans devs a happy transition and great ideas in making the IDE
better. Big thanks Jan!


Le mar. 16 oct. 2018 à 13:17, Geertjan Wielenga
 a écrit :

> No, NetBeans is much more than a Java IDE. I am sorry, I can extend this
> discussion with more and more responses or I can do what is needed right
> now, which is we need to work on NetCAT now:
>
> http://netbeans-vm.apache.org/synergy/client/app/#/run/29/v/2
>
> The thread started because you had a ridiculously easy thing that needed
> to be done and that you haven't done for many years -- you can do so right
> now and provide the pull request here:
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans/pulls
>
> Gj
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:05 PM Tom Arilla  wrote:
>
>>
>> >  Just please stop referring to these stupid surveys
>>
>> Geertjan, do you have a proof that they are stupid? I think not, just
>> like I do not have a proof that they are wise.
>>
>>
>>> (do you know anything at all about who filled in those surveys, for
>>> example?)
>>>
>>
>> Yes. Look into the link if you want.
>>
>> -- NetBeans has a community of users and that's who we're focused on
>>> supporting.
>>>
>>
>> Netbeans is mostly a general Java IDE. Aren't you pretending a little bit
>> that it is not the case?
>>
>>
>>> If there are missing features, file a bug report and ideally provide a
>>> pull request to provide the fix.
>>>
>>
>> Thank you for the information, but the thread started because of an
>> essential bug ignored for many years. I will provide a patch for it, even
>> that I am a bit afraid that it will be wasted. By the way, didn't you make
>> a whole database of open bugs obsolete, with no migration attempts?
>>
>>
>>>
>> Thanks,
>>>
>>>
>> Thank you as well, and all the best in making Netbeans better under the
>> new formula. Happy transition.
>>
>>

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Geertjan Wielenga]

No, NetBeans is much more than a Java IDE. I am sorry, I can extend this
discussion with more and more responses or I can do what is needed right
now, which is we need to work on NetCAT now:

http://netbeans-vm.apache.org/synergy/client/app/#/run/29/v/2

The thread started because you had a ridiculously easy thing that needed to
be done and that you haven't done for many years -- you can do so right now
and provide the pull request here:
https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans/pulls

Gj



On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:05 PM Tom Arilla  wrote:

>
> >  Just please stop referring to these stupid surveys
>
> Geertjan, do you have a proof that they are stupid? I think not, just like
> I do not have a proof that they are wise.
>
>
>> (do you know anything at all about who filled in those surveys, for
>> example?)
>>
>
> Yes. Look into the link if you want.
>
> -- NetBeans has a community of users and that's who we're focused on
>> supporting.
>>
>
> Netbeans is mostly a general Java IDE. Aren't you pretending a little bit
> that it is not the case?
>
>
>> If there are missing features, file a bug report and ideally provide a
>> pull request to provide the fix.
>>
>
> Thank you for the information, but the thread started because of an
> essential bug ignored for many years. I will provide a patch for it, even
> that I am a bit afraid that it will be wasted. By the way, didn't you make
> a whole database of open bugs obsolete, with no migration attempts?
>
>
>>
> Thanks,
>>
>>
> Thank you as well, and all the best in making Netbeans better under the
> new formula. Happy transition.
>
>

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Geertjan Wielenga]

Just please stop referring to these stupid surveys (do you know anything at
all about who filled in those surveys, for example?) -- NetBeans has a
community of users and that's who we're focused on supporting. If there are
missing features, file a bug report and ideally provide a pull request to
provide the fix.

Thanks,

Gj

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:18 AM Geertjan Wielenga <
geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com> wrote:

>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:05 AM Tom Arilla  wrote:
>
>> Hopefully I was wrong with the "decreasing popularity", Netbeans seems to
>> rebound
>> https://zeroturnaround.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/06-IntelliJ-IDEA-continues-to-dominate-the-IDE-field-768x683.jpg
>>
>> Le mar. 16 oct. 2018 à 10:54, Tom Arilla  a écrit :
>>
>>> The advantage of Netbeans is (was?) its clean and organized interface.
>>> It is easy to destroy it with ad-hoc, non consulted decisions. I am spammed
>>> 20x a day with " Compile on save is disabled. It can be enabled in
>>> Project Properties". Who came with that interface? I did disable "compile
>>> on save"  to see instantly a list of all compile errors instead of "project
>>> contains errors, run anyway?", a question which I won't even comment.
>>> According to
>>> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/32895522/disable-copying-entire-line-when-nothing-is-selected-in-intellij2014-04-gsoc.php
>>> the "copy entire line when no selection" was "the most viewed Intellij
>>> issue". Who just came and remove the option from Netbeans? And told the
>>> people which do not like it "I am sorry"?
>>>
>>> Possibly it is a good idea to concentrate on where Netbeans still shines
>>> and be careful with that. Improve in a consulted way. Devs are different,
>>> not everyone uses Netbeans to build very largr web apps which need "compile
>>> on save" and where almost always statement = single line so copying an
>>> entire line needs a shortcut. Which does not destroy usability for another
>>> dev, not at all, because everyone uses Netbeans to build very large web
>>> apps.
>>>
>>> I can not find the code in question using web search, possibly because
>>> the old forums seem to be gone, but I will look through old source code and
>>> post a patch here. If the option has really been removed and not something
>>> other failed.
>>>
>>>
>>> Le lun. 15 oct. 2018 à 21:06, Emilian Bold  a
>>> écrit :
>>>
 Every option exponentially increases the states / configurations one
 needs to handle and invites bugs.

 So, often times a product will just not do something by design. See the
 great success of iPhone as a testament to this.

 But... we are developers! You can make a case for this feature. You can
 write the patch yourself. You can submit it. And... even if it's not
 accepted in the official build -- you can use your own custom NetBeans
 build! It seems very sad to me that companies/developers/users find it so
 unbelievable that you can actually customize your computing environment.
 With a bit of time or money invested you can tweak your perfect cozy little
 bits, just the way you like them.

 IntelliJ is a commercial product. On the forums you are a potential
 sale. This changes everything. Last I checked the open-source Community
 Edition didn't even have a proper Javascript editor (it only had basic
 syntax highlighting) -- the good Javascript editor was commercial only. Oh,
 how would things look if a small fraction of NetBeans' users would invest
 the equivalent of an IntelliJ license (89 - 149 euro/year) back into
 NetBeans development.

 --emi


 On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 4:12 PM Tom Arilla  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am a longtime user of Netbeans and a submitted of many bugs. I see
> how practically none of them is ever resolved, so that I do not submit any
> bug report any more.
>
> I am wondering now (as probably many other users, given Netbeans'
> declining popularity) if to leave, given the (increasing?) number of
> problems with the IDE. Please help me and explain the history of one of 
> the
> many bugs, and why it is like that. Possibly it is a representative of the
> current ecosystem around the development of the IDE.
>
> It is here https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=192613 and
> it has 8 years. It is about adding a ridiculously easy option. And about 
> an
> option which was there, I but one dev representative who commented
>
> This behaviour is intentional. I am sorry you hate it but there are users 
> who love it. There is no plan to change it.
>
> had probably no idea that an option to disable this "behaviour" was
> already there, several lines of code which were either removed or are no
> more functional. I would check it again, but I do not care any more. Few
> lines, which I would resubmit as a patch, but when I see a dev answer like
> that above, 

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Tom Arilla]

Hopefully I was wrong with the "decreasing popularity", Netbeans seems to
rebound
https://zeroturnaround.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/06-IntelliJ-IDEA-continues-to-dominate-the-IDE-field-768x683.jpg

Le mar. 16 oct. 2018 à 10:54, Tom Arilla  a écrit :

> The advantage of Netbeans is (was?) its clean and organized interface. It
> is easy to destroy it with ad-hoc, non consulted decisions. I am spammed
> 20x a day with " Compile on save is disabled. It can be enabled in
> Project Properties". Who came with that interface? I did disable "compile
> on save"  to see instantly a list of all compile errors instead of "project
> contains errors, run anyway?", a question which I won't even comment.
> According to
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/32895522/disable-copying-entire-line-when-nothing-is-selected-in-intellij2014-04-gsoc.php
> the "copy entire line when no selection" was "the most viewed Intellij
> issue". Who just came and remove the option from Netbeans? And told the
> people which do not like it "I am sorry"?
>
> Possibly it is a good idea to concentrate on where Netbeans still shines
> and be careful with that. Improve in a consulted way. Devs are different,
> not everyone uses Netbeans to build very largr web apps which need "compile
> on save" and where almost always statement = single line so copying an
> entire line needs a shortcut. Which does not destroy usability for another
> dev, not at all, because everyone uses Netbeans to build very large web
> apps.
>
> I can not find the code in question using web search, possibly because the
> old forums seem to be gone, but I will look through old source code and
> post a patch here. If the option has really been removed and not something
> other failed.
>
>
> Le lun. 15 oct. 2018 à 21:06, Emilian Bold  a
> écrit :
>
>> Every option exponentially increases the states / configurations one
>> needs to handle and invites bugs.
>>
>> So, often times a product will just not do something by design. See the
>> great success of iPhone as a testament to this.
>>
>> But... we are developers! You can make a case for this feature. You can
>> write the patch yourself. You can submit it. And... even if it's not
>> accepted in the official build -- you can use your own custom NetBeans
>> build! It seems very sad to me that companies/developers/users find it so
>> unbelievable that you can actually customize your computing environment.
>> With a bit of time or money invested you can tweak your perfect cozy little
>> bits, just the way you like them.
>>
>> IntelliJ is a commercial product. On the forums you are a potential sale.
>> This changes everything. Last I checked the open-source Community Edition
>> didn't even have a proper Javascript editor (it only had basic syntax
>> highlighting) -- the good Javascript editor was commercial only. Oh, how
>> would things look if a small fraction of NetBeans' users would invest the
>> equivalent of an IntelliJ license (89 - 149 euro/year) back into NetBeans
>> development.
>>
>> --emi
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 4:12 PM Tom Arilla  wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I am a longtime user of Netbeans and a submitted of many bugs. I see how
>>> practically none of them is ever resolved, so that I do not submit any bug
>>> report any more.
>>>
>>> I am wondering now (as probably many other users, given Netbeans'
>>> declining popularity) if to leave, given the (increasing?) number of
>>> problems with the IDE. Please help me and explain the history of one of the
>>> many bugs, and why it is like that. Possibly it is a representative of the
>>> current ecosystem around the development of the IDE.
>>>
>>> It is here https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=192613 and it
>>> has 8 years. It is about adding a ridiculously easy option. And about an
>>> option which was there, I but one dev representative who commented
>>>
>>> This behaviour is intentional. I am sorry you hate it but there are users 
>>> who love it. There is no plan to change it.
>>>
>>> had probably no idea that an option to disable this "behaviour" was
>>> already there, several lines of code which were either removed or are no
>>> more functional. I would check it again, but I do not care any more. Few
>>> lines, which I would resubmit as a patch, but when I see a dev answer like
>>> that above, or how I was once ridiculed when I asked about this bug on the
>>> non-existing forum (something about the lines of not fixing it in order to
>>> show who rules here), I do not care any more. Someone reopened that bug two
>>> years ago, but probably no dev cares any more.
>>>
>>> IntelliJ is somewhat plagued with bugs, but when I browse discussion
>>> forums of IntelliJ, there is something encouraging in all that energy of
>>> *helping* the users, of *caring* about them. And we talk about adding few
>>> lines of a ridiculously easy code. Which does not even increase the
>>> complexity of the UI. Guess which will be my next IDE.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Tom Arilla]

The advantage of Netbeans is (was?) its clean and organized interface. It
is easy to destroy it with ad-hoc, non consulted decisions. I am spammed
20x a day with " Compile on save is disabled. It can be enabled in
Project Properties". Who came with that interface? I did disable "compile
on save"  to see instantly a list of all compile errors instead of "project
contains errors, run anyway?", a question which I won't even comment.
According to
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/32895522/disable-copying-entire-line-when-nothing-is-selected-in-intellij2014-04-gsoc.php
the "copy entire line when no selection" was "the most viewed Intellij
issue". Who just came and remove the option from Netbeans? And told the
people which do not like it "I am sorry"?

Possibly it is a good idea to concentrate on where Netbeans still shines
and be careful with that. Improve in a consulted way. Devs are different,
not everyone uses Netbeans to build very largr web apps which need "compile
on save" and where almost always statement = single line so copying an
entire line needs a shortcut. Which does not destroy usability for another
dev, not at all, because everyone uses Netbeans to build very large web
apps.

I can not find the code in question using web search, possibly because the
old forums seem to be gone, but I will look through old source code and
post a patch here. If the option has really been removed and not something
other failed.


Le lun. 15 oct. 2018 à 21:06, Emilian Bold  a
écrit :

> Every option exponentially increases the states / configurations one needs
> to handle and invites bugs.
>
> So, often times a product will just not do something by design. See the
> great success of iPhone as a testament to this.
>
> But... we are developers! You can make a case for this feature. You can
> write the patch yourself. You can submit it. And... even if it's not
> accepted in the official build -- you can use your own custom NetBeans
> build! It seems very sad to me that companies/developers/users find it so
> unbelievable that you can actually customize your computing environment.
> With a bit of time or money invested you can tweak your perfect cozy little
> bits, just the way you like them.
>
> IntelliJ is a commercial product. On the forums you are a potential sale.
> This changes everything. Last I checked the open-source Community Edition
> didn't even have a proper Javascript editor (it only had basic syntax
> highlighting) -- the good Javascript editor was commercial only. Oh, how
> would things look if a small fraction of NetBeans' users would invest the
> equivalent of an IntelliJ license (89 - 149 euro/year) back into NetBeans
> development.
>
> --emi
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 4:12 PM Tom Arilla  wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am a longtime user of Netbeans and a submitted of many bugs. I see how
>> practically none of them is ever resolved, so that I do not submit any bug
>> report any more.
>>
>> I am wondering now (as probably many other users, given Netbeans'
>> declining popularity) if to leave, given the (increasing?) number of
>> problems with the IDE. Please help me and explain the history of one of the
>> many bugs, and why it is like that. Possibly it is a representative of the
>> current ecosystem around the development of the IDE.
>>
>> It is here https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=192613 and it
>> has 8 years. It is about adding a ridiculously easy option. And about an
>> option which was there, I but one dev representative who commented
>>
>> This behaviour is intentional. I am sorry you hate it but there are users 
>> who love it. There is no plan to change it.
>>
>> had probably no idea that an option to disable this "behaviour" was
>> already there, several lines of code which were either removed or are no
>> more functional. I would check it again, but I do not care any more. Few
>> lines, which I would resubmit as a patch, but when I see a dev answer like
>> that above, or how I was once ridiculed when I asked about this bug on the
>> non-existing forum (something about the lines of not fixing it in order to
>> show who rules here), I do not care any more. Someone reopened that bug two
>> years ago, but probably no dev cares any more.
>>
>> IntelliJ is somewhat plagued with bugs, but when I browse discussion
>> forums of IntelliJ, there is something encouraging in all that energy of
>> *helping* the users, of *caring* about them. And we talk about adding few
>> lines of a ridiculously easy code. Which does not even increase the
>> complexity of the UI. Guess which will be my next IDE.
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Emilian Bold]

Every option exponentially increases the states / configurations one needs
to handle and invites bugs.

So, often times a product will just not do something by design. See the
great success of iPhone as a testament to this.

But... we are developers! You can make a case for this feature. You can
write the patch yourself. You can submit it. And... even if it's not
accepted in the official build -- you can use your own custom NetBeans
build! It seems very sad to me that companies/developers/users find it so
unbelievable that you can actually customize your computing environment.
With a bit of time or money invested you can tweak your perfect cozy little
bits, just the way you like them.

IntelliJ is a commercial product. On the forums you are a potential sale.
This changes everything. Last I checked the open-source Community Edition
didn't even have a proper Javascript editor (it only had basic syntax
highlighting) -- the good Javascript editor was commercial only. Oh, how
would things look if a small fraction of NetBeans' users would invest the
equivalent of an IntelliJ license (89 - 149 euro/year) back into NetBeans
development.

--emi


On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 4:12 PM Tom Arilla  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am a longtime user of Netbeans and a submitted of many bugs. I see how
> practically none of them is ever resolved, so that I do not submit any bug
> report any more.
>
> I am wondering now (as probably many other users, given Netbeans'
> declining popularity) if to leave, given the (increasing?) number of
> problems with the IDE. Please help me and explain the history of one of the
> many bugs, and why it is like that. Possibly it is a representative of the
> current ecosystem around the development of the IDE.
>
> It is here https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=192613 and it
> has 8 years. It is about adding a ridiculously easy option. And about an
> option which was there, I but one dev representative who commented
>
> This behaviour is intentional. I am sorry you hate it but there are users who 
> love it. There is no plan to change it.
>
> had probably no idea that an option to disable this "behaviour" was
> already there, several lines of code which were either removed or are no
> more functional. I would check it again, but I do not care any more. Few
> lines, which I would resubmit as a patch, but when I see a dev answer like
> that above, or how I was once ridiculed when I asked about this bug on the
> non-existing forum (something about the lines of not fixing it in order to
> show who rules here), I do not care any more. Someone reopened that bug two
> years ago, but probably no dev cares any more.
>
> IntelliJ is somewhat plagued with bugs, but when I browse discussion
> forums of IntelliJ, there is something encouraging in all that energy of
> *helping* the users, of *caring* about them. And we talk about adding few
> lines of a ridiculously easy code. Which does not even increase the
> complexity of the UI. Guess which will be my next IDE.
>
>
>
>

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Geertjan Wielenga]

The short answer is that, even more than before, YOU are an NB dev now.
Especially for ridiculously easy PRs, we as a community welcome your
contributions.

Just fork Apache NetBeans on GitHub, merge your enhancement into your fork,
and then push it to main:

https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans

Thanks, looking forward to it.

Gj


On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 3:28 PM Glenn Holmer 
wrote:

> On 10/11/2018 09:07 AM, Glenn Holmer wrote:
> > NetBeans is an Apache project now (and uses JIRA for bug reporting). You
> > are welcome to submit the ridiculously easy PR for this.
> >
> >
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/projects/NETBEANS/issues/NETBEANS-1391?filter=resolvedrecently
>
> also, http://netbeans.apache.org/participate/index.html
>
> --
> Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
> "After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Glenn Holmer]

On 10/11/2018 09:07 AM, Glenn Holmer wrote:
> NetBeans is an Apache project now (and uses JIRA for bug reporting). You
> are welcome to submit the ridiculously easy PR for this.
> 
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/projects/NETBEANS/issues/NETBEANS-1391?filter=resolvedrecently

also, http://netbeans.apache.org/participate/index.html

-- 
Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
"After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Glenn Holmer]

On 10/11/2018 08:11 AM, Tom Arilla wrote:
> I am a longtime user of Netbeans and a submitted of many bugs.

Me too (almost 20 years...!).

> I see how practically none of them is ever resolved
At best, that's an unkind exaggeration.

> I am wondering now (as probably many other users, given Netbeans'
> declining popularity) if to leave, given the (increasing?) number of
> problems with the IDE. Please help me and explain the history of one of
> the many bugs, and why it is like that. Possibly it is a representative
> of the current ecosystem around the development of the IDE.

No, this is a great time to stay with NetBeans and indeed to start using
it if you haven't before.

> It is here https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=192613 and it
> has 8 years. It is about adding a ridiculously easy option.

NetBeans is an Apache project now (and uses JIRA for bug reporting). You
are welcome to submit the ridiculously easy PR for this.

https://issues.apache.org/jira/projects/NETBEANS/issues/NETBEANS-1391?filter=resolvedrecently

-- 
Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
"After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Neil C Smith]

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 14:39, John McDonnell  wrote:
> (I'd argue this isn't the best way to bring it up but it's done now).

+1

NetBeans is now a community project at Apache.  How things were
decided historically does not determine how things are decided now.
If you want to get involved in developing that ecosystem why not jump
in and mould it, not start off by trolling?!

Incidentally, in +15yrs of using NetBeans I'd not noticed this
behaviour before.  Thanks!  I actually really like it.

An option might be useful.

Best wishes,

Neil

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[Tom Arilla]

Hi John,

Yes we should be constructive, I am sorry for the tone of resignation. I
have written it because I still find that Netbeans has the most clean
design and would really want to use it further. I had no idea that
something changed in handling the bugs and in the development scheme in
general. If it is of any use, I can find again the few lines in question
and see why it works no more. A lot of users do not like the functionality
as it leads to unnoticed modifications of source code, see
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/32895522/disable-copying-entire-line-when-nothing-is-selected-in-intellij/32907749

Re: History of one bug, or what is the attitude of NB devs

[John McDonnell]

Hi Tom

I can't speak for all devs, hell I've only done a few minor changes here
and there. But the things my changes had in common were that they were
filed as defects/enhancements and as I was one who cared about it I went
out of my way to invest time into resolving them. That's the great benefit
we have with NetBeans in Apache right now. The old way is gone if you have
an issue bring it up in the mailing lists (I'd argue this isn't the best
way to bring it up but it's done now). Move the issue to the Apache JIRA
and let's get people on both the users and Dev mailing list to discuss and
vote on it and then maybe someone can take a look.  I don't argee with how
it was handle previously while it might be intentional it seemed users
wanted the ability to disable this functionality. If that desire is still
there then someone might have the time to look at it.

Everyone working on NetBeans right now is doing it in their own time. And
some of the migration effort is still ongoing. Let's be constructive and
let's find out which issues are affecting most people and help prioritize
them.

Regards

John



On Thu 11 Oct 2018, 14:12 Tom Arilla,  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am a longtime user of Netbeans and a submitted of many bugs. I see how
> practically none of them is ever resolved, so that I do not submit any bug
> report any more.
>
> I am wondering now (as probably many other users, given Netbeans'
> declining popularity) if to leave, given the (increasing?) number of
> problems with the IDE. Please help me and explain the history of one of the
> many bugs, and why it is like that. Possibly it is a representative of the
> current ecosystem around the development of the IDE.
>
> It is here https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=192613 and it
> has 8 years. It is about adding a ridiculously easy option. And about an
> option which was there, I but one dev representative who commented
>
> This behaviour is intentional. I am sorry you hate it but there are users who 
> love it. There is no plan to change it.
>
> had probably no idea that an option to disable this "behaviour" was
> already there, several lines of code which were either removed or are no
> more functional. I would check it again, but I do not care any more. Few
> lines, which I would resubmit as a patch, but when I see a dev answer like
> that above, or how I was once ridiculed when I asked about this bug on the
> non-existing forum (something about the lines of not fixing it in order to
> show who rules here), I do not care any more. Someone reopened that bug two
> years ago, but probably no dev cares any more.
>
> IntelliJ is somewhat plagued with bugs, but when I browse discussion
> forums of IntelliJ, there is something encouraging in all that energy of
> *helping* the users, of *caring* about them. And we talk about adding few
> lines of a ridiculously easy code. Which does not even increase the
> complexity of the UI. Guess which will be my next IDE.
>
>
>
>