seanadams wrote:
> Just to clarify I was talking about AES/EBU _in general_. There's
> nothing wrong with how I did Transporter's AES/EBU output. The interface
> is defective by definition, and therefore not possible to execute
> reasonably by anyone.
Hope no one is upset I found this old
In case anyone cares..here is a link to the App Note, that
shows the differences between the Channel Status block, between AES/EBU
(Pro) and SPDIF (Consumer) modes.
http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/appNote/an22.pdf
Pat
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ar-t
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Note, and the junior engineer who wrote it is an idiot.
Anyway, if you try sticking that circuit directly on the output of the
typical TX chip, with one ground pin, you are probably asking for
trouble. Which, you deserve.
Pat
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break up ground loops, but at the expense
of other problems. Good designs are not that common.
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.
The consumer SPDIF version is supposed to.
As Sean mentioned, they re-arrange what byte this info is contained in.
The first 3 (I believe) bytes are different, between the two. Why? Who
knows.
Pat
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ar-t
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ar-t's
Just curious, but how would you determine what a better power supply
is?
Pat
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, they will disagree, which is their right. Won't negate what
I am saying.
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in the connector, for the
75 ohm version. The idea is to reduce the capacitance, which has the
effect of raising the impedance. The RCA is a different story. The
physical dimensions are all wrong.
But...
You would think that for as much as those guys charge.
Pat
--
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is just plain
wrong. Sorry, the Laws of Physics are not malleable by marketing
departments.
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that on this, or
other, forums.
Whether or not the linear supply has less noise.just
because it is linear is no guarantee it is low noise. Most are not.
Additionally, the noise from the local regulators -can- override the
noise of the external linear.
Pat
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people use supplies that are quiet enough.
Pat
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the signal significantly.
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get it.
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are the ones who probably had the idea
to make it a consumer interface. (That is why it stinks as an interface:
it wasn't really intended to be one.)
Pat
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timings. What
difference this makes depends on the DAC.
It is AR-T, thank you. I think there is a company called A.R.T. but I
don't know them.
Yes, it does make a difference, depending on the DAC.
What is too long? And why?
Pat
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to measure it.
Pat
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that I follow is on Audio
Circle. There are others, but I tend to avoid those places.) I don't
think that discussing it here is appropriate, as one could say that it
competes with the Duet et al. The folks who make those products might
not appreciate it.
Pat
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Ah.but that is AES/EBU, right? I have coax cables that are
longer than that in use.
Pat
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on one may be barely discernible on others.
Pat
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handy. (Mine were wiped out in major computer crash a
few weeks back.)
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over a year ago, so may take
a while to find it. If you have any questions, post them here.
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then adjust the FFT
attenuator to its proper range. That sort of thing is hard to do on a
PC-based system.
Attempting to make a measurement w/o this feature can skew results.
Pat
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goes into it. Admittedly, that could be
tricky to discern. If one where to use a CDP that had a SPDIF output,
there is no guaranty that the audio it produces will be close to the
audio that you DAC produces. But, there is a chance that you could pick
up on some of the effects of the ASRC.
Pat
--
ar
. Sony and its cohorts had to
justify their notion that 32 kHz sampling rate was good enough.
-It is only consumer grade audio.- Not studio grade. We should consider
ourselves lucky that it became 44.1 kHz.
Any wonder why SPDIF is lousy?
Pat
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dispelled.
Pat
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I have experienced some similar problems in my experiments. Everything
from nothing to full-bore noise. Probably a reset issue, as powering it
up again solved the problem.
Well, there was one time where it didn't. Horrible distortion was the
result. No idea why.
Pat
--
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with less resistance.
None of us here work on stuff for the military, so how would we know
what it is?
All I know is that it costs money, and some folks like them. Others
think they are codswallop. I am neutral.
Pat
--
ar-t
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pfarrell;373626 Wrote:
Dinner with a great looking date, a glass of wine, in a great
restaurant tastes better than the same food home alone.
Like that is ever going to happen to an engineer! Not even in my
dreams.
Back to the discussion at hand.
Pat
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available domain names. Someone using our real name was
making cables and had that name registered with ICANN.
Pat
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issues?
So, back to my original premise:
Do you think that high-end manufacturers would waste all the time and
money on this sort of nonsense if it did not affect the final product?
There are other, and more sane ways, to make a living.
Pat
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works, or
2.) They could be beta testers for my equally obscure audio designer
buddy. He was 50%'er.
Most of the time. Some days he was 0%! In which case, he would have
been better off using them.
OK, enough snide posts from me.
Pat
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not comment on whether they
work or not. Just try them yourself without paying extra for someone
else to do it for you. Less money wasted if they don't: more money left
over to buy more if they do.
Pat
--
ar-t
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to send you out some?
No, that is ok.
You sure?
Yes.
Well, I have to thank you somehow..
-Then either listen to what I tell you or stop calling me for free
design help!-
Pat
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you guys do. Snake oil salesmen on one side, ego-driven buffoons
on the other. Dedicated nerds are stuck in the middle, and usually get
trampled to death by money and strong-arm tactics.
Pat
Pat
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?)
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to tell you that?
So, Clark, Kruger, the BASand all the rest...maybe the
methodology sucked. But maybe some of us really can hear the
difference. We don't need no steenking...(finish the sentence on
your own.)
Pat
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they are, as he has done lots of that work. Surprised
that they let him buy them.
Bybee really doesn't need the money, so I have been told. He does it
because he is fascinated by how they do what they do. So, yes Jack
knows, but is not going to say.
Pat
--
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.)
So, yes, I realise that just because someone says that they hear a
difference does not really mean that they do.
Pat
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. Interestingly, because of its
nature, it was something that I could quantify with all of our TDRs,
spectrum analysers and network analysers. All he had to work with was
his stubbournness and a Tek 475.
Pat
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years ago, and found that all of us were now too old to be zealous
about any of it.
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and address the issue if it was a moot point.
There are lots of other bogus stories one could invent, all probably
equally plausible, to come up with hype to flog their wares.
Pat
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is the norm
on these forums. So, thanks for trying.
Pat
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that is being discussed in this
paper.
I know how they feel..!
Pat
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ones, than you did. Not sure I would agree with your conclusion,
but at least you were open to it. Which is all that we really ask of
anyone.
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it for 1/5 the price?
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they were worried about the resale value of their
gear. And my unwillingness to even try. I had other stuff I wanted to
do.
Like strap on the ol' feed bag. Later.
Pat
--
ar-t
http://www.analogresearch-technology.net
ar
http://www.plangentprocesses.com/
Seems these folks have found a way to eliminate wow and flutter on
analogue tapes. Another example of modulation, that creates sidebands
that muck up the sound.
Sort of like jitter, which also creates sidebands.
Pat
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part. I only put test tones through any of mine.
Pat
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of you who don't believe mewell, you aren't going to
believe anything else that I say, so just ignore me. I will do the same
to you.
Over and out. Time to get my lithium level checked again.
Pat
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forum somewhere. Not sure which one. All about as useless as the next.)
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of phase noise for
11.3 MHz (256 Fs for 44.1 kHz), you get 150 pSec.
Like I said, SPDIF -can- do better.
Pat
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an A in.)
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pfarrell;372228 Wrote:
ar-t wrote:
OK, call it the methodology. Try sitting through an ABX DBT for 4
hours, then come back and tell me how enjoyable it was.
Complete red herring. Of course a four hour session would not be
enjoyable. So ask why the test designer did something that evil
that much of a
difference. 100 pSec...hell, had to be close enough.
Why bother going lower?
We went lower and heard the difference. That is all that I can say
about the matter.
Pat
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for the Lone
Prophet.
Pat
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jitter is, not how to get rid of it. I charge $$
for that sort of info. (Gotta make a living somehow.) Maybe some day in
the DIY section.
Uh, oh.post is too long..have to make 2 posts
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if it could be
better. Better means more money. And more money does not mean better.
Only more money.
Any more questions? I am typed out, and still have e-mail to answer.
Pat
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ar-t
http://www.analogresearch-technology.net
ar-t's
if the S/PDIF
link is less that ideal (which most of them are to a fairly large
degree).
Give the man a cigar.
Change most to damn near all.
Pat
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for not a lot of money!
units.
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Listen to a system with lots of jitter, and one with much lower jitter.
If you can't hear the difference, then I guess is doesn't matter to
you.
Some folks are happy listening to MP3s on iPods. Does that matter? Not
to them, but maybe to others.
Pat
--
ar-t
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pfarrell;370564 Wrote:
ar-t wrote:
Listen to a system with lots of jitter, and one with much lower
jitter.
If you can't hear the difference, then I guess is doesn't matter to
you.
This is silly. Where am I supposed to find said systems with lots of
or lower jitter?
Listen
will do my best
to help to educate them.
You, sir, are not. Good day.
Pat
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were the ones we all used in
our personal systems.
Unfortunately, we never did the straight-vs-variable A/B test after we
did that little trick. In retrospect.well, that was over 15
years ago and in our ignorance, we blew our chance to know.
Pat
--
ar-t
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seanadams;368466 Wrote:
Haha, by all means go on. :)
I needed a day away to get my lithium level adjusted. Those guys pushed
me over the edge.
Pat
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when the output Z is in the 300-500 ohm range.
Just like the Duet!!! Sean and his team figured that out without having
to spend 25 years designing this stuff.
Pat
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ar-t's
confirmation.
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is not anywhere near as bad. But in any case, it is highly
unlikely that the clock that comes out of it is much of any improvement
over what goes in.
Even if it is, you still have to deal with the recovered SPDIF clock in
the Transporter.
Jitter fixer? No. Jitter modifier? Yes.
Pat
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. There were ways to
solve it, but not practical.
Pat
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expensive ones were used in
some moderately priced CD players back in the early 90s.
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about. Should you be so inclined.
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outside of that realm should be regarded as a privilege that
should be appreciated, and not abused or taken for granted.
Don't you guys have enough other forums to discuss non-Slim Device
related topics?
Pat
--
ar-t
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I understand, but
It is -their- forum. They extend the *privilege* of posting on it. Some
folks seem to confuse right with privilege. They are not the same.
Enjoy the privilege, be grateful for it, and don't abuse it. That does
not seem too much to ask.
Pat
--
ar-t
http
just have to look for the 1% that is tolerable.
As for what they know
Not as much as they think that they do. They think all they have to do
is copy the RS-485 spec, and it will work.
Big difference between works and works really good. Theirs just
barely works.
Pat
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the common mistakes.
Cirrus knows how I feel, but that was over 15 years ago.
Pat
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boards), although the
transformaer output circuit is directly from the Crystal Semiconductor
datasheet, so I wouldn't expect it to fail horibly.
You use a DC blocking cap on your AM transmitters. Why do you think
that you don't need one here?
Pat
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for this application.
Pat
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Anyone notice what kind of transformer it is? Anyone..hm?
Too bad he lets DC go through it. Oh, well.
Pat
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cables so bad that you wouldn't have them in your
house. Yeah, it worked.
Pat
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I did not say that it can't be fixed. You assume that all D/A boxes are
made that way. (They aren't.) Most of the ones who attempt to do that
use a SRC, and usually the worst one that they can find. Which is a
whole new set of problems.
Pat
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.
Pat
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over the building first?
We took the lazy way out, in case you are wondering.
And be glad that you are not an engineer. Look at what it did to me!
Pat
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are starting to sound like John Curl.
Pat
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isn't 75 ohms once you mate it to a real-world connector.
Did I address all of your issues?
Pat
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problem is the jitter that occurs in the clock recovery.
And it still sounds bad. Remember, not everyone has a D/A box that goes
to the lengths necessary to address its shortcomings.
Pat
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Tricked, ya...didn't he? (Fink!)
BTW, there is a fancy term for what he is seeing: Gibbs Phenomenon.
Pat
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. Thanks.
Pat
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apart the
pins are, and how long they are. Look at a BNC. See why now?)
Pat
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No, he was also looking at a square wave out of the analogue outputs.
Pat
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sampling theory. I know, it seems counter-intuitive.
Look through some old stereo magazines for CD player reviews. They love
to show what the square wave out of all of them looks like.
Then argue about whether it is proper or not.
Pat
--
ar-t
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you give us a clue? I assume something
more than a rounded-off square wave. Could be loose ground clip on your
'scope probe. It does happen, even to guys who do it all day long.
Pat
--
ar-t
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, but I simply do not have time to do all of your legwork.
Herelook up Spec Mil-C-17. That ought to keep you busy.
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that.
Our cables use RG-59 type, but it is different from RG-59. Mainly
because it is a plenum rated cable, and it has different physical
dimensions.
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want to. When you have a choice, there are literally 100s of
choices when it comes to 75 ohm cables that perform better.
BTW, do you ever check your PMs?
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:
They are not designed for repeated insertions. Hook 'em up, and leave
them alone. That is the use they were designed for.
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. Or sickened, possibly
both.
Then report to us, and let the naysayers tell you that jitter is a lot
of codswallop.
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. No, it does not
take the most expensive system known to mankind to hear it. We have
demonstrated in many times when we were in the business of selling that
type of equipment. Somehow, it never hurt our sales.
BTWthanks for the welcome!
Pat
--
ar-t
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actually cares, I helped to engineer the world's first
single-mode long-haul fibre system. I may just have an idea what I am
talking about. Not that the ignorant will care; they rarely are
open-mended enough.)
Pat
--
ar-t
http://www.analogresearch-technology.net
your question, but it was rather funny
for those of us involved. But it does highlight that fibre is not
perfect. It has dispersion and reflection problems just like coax.
Immune to EMI, generates no EMI, isolates things electrically.
Has some problems of its own.
Pat
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ar-t
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