Even though he actually did, it just goes without saying: memory is
faster
than I/O.
Under a heavy load, this is no doubt true. However, I was recently
surprised to find that under a small to moderate load, there may
be no noticeable performance difference.
The analogy here is that a BMW is
://www.BeetrootStreet.co.uk
-Original Message-
From: mayo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 29 December 2004 02:13
To: CF-Talk
Subject: shopping cart, session variables - best practices
I'm setting up a shopping cart for a jewelry store.
I'm curious, what is performance limit for storing data
Use a structure for storing the basket contents by all means, however
instead of session.basketContents, convert the structure to a WDDX
object and store it as client.basketContents - That way you're not using
precious RAM but cheap disk space.
Storing application- and user-specific data is
Any reason you're not using an array of structs? It would be much
cleaner to work with and much faster than using lists (which is going
to have much more impact on your performance than storing data).
While I agree with your suggestion to use arrays and structures rather than
lists, I doubt it
and
is not on another server with xxx websites who all make excessive use of
session variables, then yes - maybe he should use session variables..
Mayo - please advise.
Martin Parry
Macromedia Certified Developer
http://www.BeetrootStreet.co.uk
-Original Message-
From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL
by storing data in application server memory instead of
fetching it from the database for each page request.
In high traffic eComm sites I have seen superb performance using the
method described.
There are plenty of reasons why you might choose Client variables or other
database storage over Session
In high traffic eComm sites I have seen superb performance using the
method described.
There are plenty of reasons why you might choose Client variables or
other database storage over Session variables.
To expand on Dave's statement the times you would want Client variables over
memory
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:27:31 -0500, Dennis Powers
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
To expand on Dave's statement the times you would want Client variables over
memory (session) variables for storage is when the application needs to
operate in a cluster of web servers. Sharing memory (session
To expand on Dave's statement the times you would want Client variables
over
memory (session) variables for storage is when the application needs to
operate in a cluster of web servers. Sharing memory (session) variables
then become impracticable.
Session state stored in client variables
I'm setting up a shopping cart for a jewelry store.
I'm curious, what is performance limit for storing data in session
variables?
The following are lists:
Item No (itemID used in check out)
Item Qty (in case someone wants more than one)
Item Price
Item Description (most descriptions about 50
I'm curious, what is performance limit for storing data in session
variables?
Memory (RAM) is really your only practical limit when using session
variables. Just make sure you make your session timeout a practical
interval. and (assuming you are on CFMX) make sure you set both your
max
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:12:58 -0500, mayo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The following are lists:
Item No (itemID used in check out)
Item Qty (in case someone wants more than one)
Item Price
Item Description (most descriptions about 50 characters. ex: Ruby and gold
drop-earrings)
Any reason
There's no particular reason to use list. I was wondering about using arrays
instead, and then got pulled elsewhere. Thx.
-- gil
-Original Message-
From: Sean Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:59 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: shopping cart, session
Has anyone run into problems with session variable retention or odd site
issues regarding CompuServe? Are they running a Caching type server there??
We are having an issue where some session variables are getting messed up
when someone is using dialup through CompuServe. Anyone with any
On my laptop, after logging in and getting a CFID and CFTOKEN I lose my
session variables upon navigating to another page. On my production
server it works properly. As far as I can tell, the CFAdmin settings are
the same. The only differences are my laptop is running WinXP with the
developer
pardon if I'm asking a question that has probably been
answered. But I'm wondering where exactly session
variables are stored and how they relate to client
variables.
do CFID and CFTOKEN relate to both
and if I'm doing client management with a database how
do I find the record of my information
session variables are stored in RAM. The only way to access them is
via the session scope for a given request.
client variables are totally independant of session variables, though
they happen to share identifiers if you're not using J2EE sessions.
CFID/CFTOKEN is used for client variables
, a Session.Classroom_ID variable is established to allow them
access to their classroom site.
I'm having problems with the Session variables timing out after 20 minutes,
although I've set the SessionTimeOut variable in the CFAPPLICATION tag
(there's only one Application.cfm page) to 60 minutes using
Message-
From: Larry White [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 6:50 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Problem with Session Variables timing out
There's also a maximum allowed session timeout inn CF admib,
besides the default value
to their classroom site.
I'm having problems with the Session variables timing out after 20 minutes,
although I've set the SessionTimeOut variable in the CFAPPLICATION tag
(there's only one Application.cfm page) to 60 minutes using
SessionTimeOut=#CreateTimeSpan(0,0,60,0)#
Any idea why that wouldn't override
variable for them,
then the database is queried to see if they have a classroom site,
and, if so, a Session.Classroom_ID variable is established to allow them
access to their classroom site.
I'm having problems with the Session variables timing out after 20 minutes,
although I've set the SessionTimeOut
Hi All,
I am having a severe problem with session variables in an order management application
I am working on. The application stores a rather large order object (cfc) in the
SESSION scope and modifies it as changes are made via methods of the CFC. For some
reason at random times the order
Nick Baker wrote:
A session variable holds through 2 pages then is not recognized on the 3rd
page. Going back to the other pages and refreshing that page shows the
session variable to be valid.
Any ideas?
Thanks,
Nick
More specifics
1. Execute the following query
cfquery
I have systems running storing more than 100k records in the application
scope with no problem at all. I guess there still has to be a tiny itchy
annoying bug waiting for you to be resolved :-) I have never seen
problems like yours before.
Micha Schopman
Software Engineer
Modern Media,
100k in the Application scope. WOW. When it comes to this sort of
thing im always way to reserved. Usually shying awaying from hold any
huge amount of data in a persistance scope.
What type of system you running this on: intranet, internet etc?? You
got many other application on the same server?
The system runs 80 websites on a single instance of an inhouse developed
ColdFusion CMS. In my case the data which is stored has been filtered
before it is stored into the application scope, so don't think I store
10+ columns in the application query struct ;)
Micha Schopman
Software Engineer
A session variable holds through 2 pages then is not recognized on the 3rd
page. Going back to the other pages and refreshing that page shows the
session variable to be valid.
Any ideas?
Thanks,
Nick
More specifics
1. Execute the following query
cfquery name=Session.SrchResults
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:34:57 -0500, Nick Baker wrote:
cfoutput query=#Session.SrchResults# startrow=#Session.CurrentRow#
maxrows=1
On the 3rd page it throws the following error.
Element SRCHRESULTS is undefined in
SESSION
Check to make sure that you're reference the columns in the query
Here's my cfapplication tag:
cfapplication sessionmanagement=yes setclientcookies=yes
name=Secure3 clientmanagement=yes setdomaincookies=yes /
Sessions are turned on in the server.
I set session variables on one template but it doesn't show up on
another which is included right afterwards.Any
was it cflocated before the redirection?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 9/30/2004 12:47:32 PM
Here's my cfapplication tag:
cfapplication sessionmanagement=yes setclientcookies=yes
name=Secure3 clientmanagement=yes setdomaincookies=yes /
Sessions are turned on in the server.
I set session variables
OK, a major case of hoof-and-mouth disease there.I was using an
incorrectly named variable, so of course it couldn't find it.
Bah.
Thanks Lawrence.
--
*Damien McKenna* - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014
Create a table with three columns:id, token, and
sessionData. When leaving CF, do a CF - WDDX of the
session struct (or implement your own native way of
serializing the session data), insert it and unique
ID / token values into the table, and pass off to your
PHP page with a
Thanks for the feedback Dave.
Generally, I expire the validity of the id / token pair as soon as its
been used :)
-joe
- Original Message -
From: Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:19:34 -0400
Subject: RE: How to make CF session variables available to PHP
To: CF-Talk
to
the stage where we'd like to share session variables between php and cfml
code in order to fully integrate our applications. Has anyone had much luck
in accessing CF's session scope directly from php?
We're running CFMX 6 Pro on Debian Linux with Apache 2.0.49
Damien,
That's really not that different from the implementation I suggested -
I'm still curious though - how does my method of passing over via URL
open a big security hole?
-joe
[Todays Threads]
[This Message]
[Subscription]
[Fast Unsubscribe]
[User Settings]
[Donations and Support]
session variables available to PHP
Don't believe this is directly possible. You might be able to do
something using cookies and/or client vars though.
Cheers
G
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:42:41 +0100, Dave Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Hi all,
I've a section of development ongoing with PHP
PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi all,
I've a section of development ongoing with PHP developers and it has come to
the stage where we'd like to share session variables between php and cfml
code in order to fully integrate our applications. Has anyone had much luck
in accessing CF's session scope
Hi all,
I've a section of development ongoing with PHP developers and it has come to
the stage where we'd like to share session variables between php and cfml
code in order to fully integrate our applications. Has anyone had much luck
in accessing CF's session scope directly from php?
We're
Has anyone had much luck in accessing CF's session scope
directly from php?
You'll be struggling to share session data because it's all stored in
memory internally inside CF.A better option would be to use client
variables stored in a database, which can then be queried from PHP like
any other
something a little more direct as time constraints and other factors kind of
rule out the possibility of a rewrite from session to client vars in the
short term.
Perhaps if we knew where within memory and CF the session variables are
being stored, our developers might be able to hash something
On Monday 26 Jul 2004 17:07 pm, Dave Wilson wrote:
Perhaps if we knew where within memory and CF the session variables are
being stored, our developers might be able to hash something together.
By the time you write that, you could have written code in the hand-off CFML
page to copy the things
Hi,
With CF5.0, I'm trying to count 'unique' visitors to our site and how many
pages each visitor views, with this code in Application.cfm. This works
except that logSW does not reset when the visitor closes his browser; only
when the time span expires. How do I determine/force when a session
Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:07:19 +0100
Subject: RE: How to make CF session variables available to PHP
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You'll be struggling to share session data because it's all stored in
memory internally inside CF.A better option would be to use client
On Jul 26, 2004, at 12:29 PM, Joe Rinehart wrote:
Create a table with three columns:id, token, and sessionData.When
leaving CF, do a CF - WDDX of the session struct (or implement your
own native way of serializing the session data), insert it and unique
ID / token values into the table, and
Damien,
This it not the full extent of how we work this.
I'm curious, though - how would you attack it?
-joe
[Todays Threads]
[This Message]
[Subscription]
[Fast Unsubscribe]
[User Settings]
[Donations and Support]
On Jul 26, 2004, at 2:40 PM, Joe Rinehart wrote:
I'm curious, though - how would you attack it?
I'd share session cookies and then attempt to store the session
information in the database.Haven't tried it though so I've no idea
if it would work or not, but that's the theory ;-)
--
Damien
. The application uses a cflogout tag to log out the user, usually in
response to the user clicking a logout link or button.
3. The user closes the browser.
What happens to any session variables that are created along with
cfloginuser? If, after I login a user, I create a structure and assign
. This happens if the user does not request a new page
for the idleTimeout period.
2. The application uses a cflogout tag to log out the user, usually in
response to the user clicking a logout link or button.
3. The user closes the browser.
What happens to any session variables that are created
Actually, I've experienced an issue with cflogin and non-sticky sessions on a load balanced environment. After doing some research it appeared that the authorization portion of cflogin relies on session variables.
- Calvin
-Original Message-
From:Raymond Camden
Date:7/22/04 12:13 pm
PROTECTED] wrote:
Actually, I've experienced an issue with cflogin and non-sticky sessions on a load balanced environment. After doing some research it appeared that the authorization portion of cflogin relies on session variables.
- Calvin
-Original Message-
From:Raymond Camden
Date:7/22
Actually, I've experienced an issue with cflogin and
non-sticky sessions on a load balanced environment. After
doing some research it appeared that the authorization
portion of cflogin relies on session variables.
No, it doesn't. It relies on a cookie which by default may not be sent
, there was no explicit use of sessions and the two servers were not replicating session variables. Additionally, we could observe the switching of the user between machines ( by outputting the current machine name), and note the discrepanciesoccuring at that time.
Unfortunately that was some time
I'm confused. You said in your LB environment there was no use of
session variables. So how do you know cflogin breaking was related to
sessions?? Also, cflogin supports setting a domain cookie which
probably would have solved the issue.
-Ray
On 22 Jul 2004 14:37:02 -0400, Calvin Ward [EMAIL
We received feedback from an MM engineer to that effect. Also the LB was not using seperate domain names, to the http client, it was always on www.oursite.com.
- Calvin
-Original Message-
From:Raymond Camden
Date:7/22/04 2:45 pm
To:CF-Talk
Subj:Re: CFLogin/Logout and session variables
Well, I still stand by my assertion. I could be wrong, but I have not
heard this from any other MACR person.
On 22 Jul 2004 15:00:21 -0400, Calvin Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
We received feedback from an MM engineer to that effect. Also the LB was not using seperate domain names, to the http
environment, there was no explicit use of sessions and the
two servers were not replicating session variables.
Additionally, we could observe the switching of the user
between machines ( by outputting the current machine name),
and note the discrepanciesoccuring at that time.
By default, I
]
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 1:38 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFLogin/Logout and session variables...
Actually, I've experienced an issue with cflogin and
non-sticky sessions on a load balanced environment. After
doing some research it appeared that the authorization
portion of cflogin relies
anything to do with Session
variables, although it may not work unless you've enabled sticky sessions on
your load balancer.
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
phone: 202-797-5496
fax: 202-797-5444
[Todays Threads]
[This Message]
[Subscription]
[Fast Unsubscribe]
[User
I am using the popular CF_ThreeSelectsRelated custom tag. I am storing the selected values as session variables for viewing on the next page of my application to display all values in a particular form before submission. Is it possible if the user wanted to go back to the original form to popluate
long ago, qForms has an
example on their site uses a slightly different approach.
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:25:20 -0400, James Taavon
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am using the popular CF_ThreeSelectsRelated custom tag. I am storing the selected values as session variables for viewing on the next
Hello,
When I use SESSION variables in my application and multiple users access my app are those SESSION variables unique to each user logged in? They log into a Windows 2000 server using NT
authentication.
[Todays Threads]
[This Message]
[Subscription]
[Fast Unsubscribe]
[User Settings]
Hello,
When I use SESSION variables in my application and multiple users
access my app are those SESSION variables unique to each user logged
in? They log into a Windows 2000 server using NT
authentication.
Yes.For all intensive purposes:session, client, and cookie scopes are unique
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: cf5 session variables
The situation I have is a cfm page with an html page (that submits a
form to a cfm) embedded in an iframe. The outer cfm page is viewed by
our clients for up to an hour or more. After a about 30 minutes or so of
inactivity causes the next submission
at work.
Steven Semrau
Senior Software Engineer
SRA International, Inc
-Original Message-
From: Doug James [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 2:03 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: cf5 session variables
The admin timeout is set to 20 minutes and the cfapplication timeout
Can you move it to a client variable?
Or place in the application.cfm a check for the session, if it is not there then rebuild the session based off an cookie value.
[Todays Threads]
[This Message]
[Subscription]
[Fast Unsubscribe]
[User Settings]
There are a couple of custom tags in the Exchange that deal with this, if I remember correctly, heck you might even be able to find the one I did 3 years ago.
Basically you would run a _javascript_ timer in the background that would load/reset every page call.The timer would be set to expire
Could someone please refresh my memory regarding session variables and cf5.
Should all reads and writes be locked?
Has anyone experienced problems with session variables being passed from
a cfm template to an html page and then on to a 2nd cfm template?
TIA!
Doug
[Todays Threads
the server, then all reads and writes should be locked. (to the best of my knowledge at least).
Shawn
-Original Message-
From: Doug James [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 9:30 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: cf5 session variables
Could someone please refresh my memory
Could someone please refresh my memory regarding session
variables and cf5. Should all reads and writes be locked?
Yes.
Has anyone experienced problems with session variables being
passed from a cfm template to an html page and then on to a
2nd cfm template?
For obvious reasons, you
to 3 hours but it acting like the html page is timing out after
30 minutes.
Any suggestions?
Thanks!
Doug
Dave Watts wrote:
Could someone please refresh my memory regarding session
variables and cf5. Should all reads and writes be locked?
Yes.
Has anyone experienced problems with session
for 30 minutes, 30 minutes would prevail as the timeout value.
-Original Message-
From: Doug James [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 12:17 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: cf5 session variables
The situation I have is a cfm page with an html page (that submits a
form
I inherited a site that uses session variables to track users' paths through the site and to handle the Admin login section.The code worked fine until yesterday when it suddenly stopped working.The only information I get is Processing Error.Does anyone have any idea why it suddenly stopped working
I played with some of the error handling and was able to get a little more
information.
The message says Application.applicationName is in a scope that contains
data shared across threads and cannot be accessed without an active lock.
I know very little about session variables and locking.Does
.
I know very little about session variables and locking.Does that mean
the
problem is with the lock itself?
[Todays Threads]
[This Message]
[Subscription]
[Fast Unsubscribe]
[User Settings]
applicationtimeout=#createTimespan(0,0,90,0)#
sessiontimeout=#CreateTimespan(0,0,90,0)#
Move the cfscript out of the application lock since you are dealing only with session variables and create a session lock around them
cflock timeout=5 throwontimeout=no type=readonly scope=session
!--- Log current user
handling and was able to get a little more
information.
The message says Application.applicationName is in a scope that contains
data shared across threads and cannot be accessed without an active lock.
I know very little about session variables and locking.Does that mean the
problem
has been set to Full Checking for a long time, so why did it
suddenly throw the error yesterday?
From: Deanna Schneider [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Session Variables Suddenly Stopped Working
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 10:36:25 -0500
Sounds
I did talk to the server admin, and she hadn't changed any of the settings
recently, but when I checked the CF Administrator on our test site (which
works), I noticed that the locking information was set differently, so I
changed the lock settings in the production CF Administrator from Full
Thanks for the suggestion, Dave!We'll give that a try.
From: Dave Carabetta [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Session Variables Suddenly Stopped Working
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 12:27:56 -0400
KeAnne, I don't know the answer to your last
We have an application that's supposed to time out after 45 minutes of non
use. It's run via a session variable. Has anyone seen an instance where a
firewall interferes with the variable and would cause it to expire
prematurely or not at all?
thanks
sas
[Todays Threads]
[This Message]
-Original Message-
From: Nick Baker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: maandag 19 april 2004 21:48
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Session Variables Not Holding
Session variables are not holding for the session with the
following on the local development system (CF 5.0). Session
Variables Not Holding
Session variables are not holding for the session with the
following on the local development system (CF 5.0). Session
variables are holding on the live Web site which uses MX. Any
suggestions.
Below is the CFAPPLICATION setting
Thanks,
Nick
CFAPPLICATION
-Original Message-
From: Nick Baker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: maandag 19 april 2004 21:48
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Session Variables Not Holding
Session variables are not holding for the session with the
following on the local development system (CF 5.0). Session
Session variables are not holding for the session with the following on the
local development system (CF 5.0). Session variables are holding on the
live Web site which uses MX. Any suggestions.
Below is the CFAPPLICATION setting
Thanks,
Nick
CFAPPLICATION name=Development
CLIENTMANAGEMENT
Is there any performance gain to only using cookie variables instead of
using session variables?Is it worth the hassle? Are session variables
really that much of a server hog?
Just curious to what others think.
Kevin
[Todays Threads]
[This Message]
[Subscription]
[Fast Unsubscribe
to simmer down, no one is going to blow up a
server with session variables or corrupt the PIX firewall...LOL
Mike
Is there any performance gain to only using cookie variables
instead of using session variables?Is it worth the hassle?
Are session variables really that much of a server hog
Subject: RE: Cookies vs Session Variables
Kaz, is this in regards to the conversation we had yesterday about
company
x choosing to use cookies over session vars because they think that
session vars use too much memory?
Let me start this conversation off with a quick question What If I
The fact is, if you have the hardware to support your needs (needs being
something you figure out) then you are fine.
What kind of proof do you need?
In the case of this argument, let's assume that cookies are
enabled for everyone.So we can eliminate those statements.
This is purely an issue
or by using the request scope (and thereby moving the cookie value into RAM, defeating the purpose of using pure persistant cookies). I'd also like to point out that some places mandate no session or persistant cookies -- something session variables can handle if you move CFID and CFTOKEN into the URL. My
Just for the record, I am in favor in using session variables over
strictly the use of cookie variables.I would think that the required
parsing and logic to read and handle the cookies in your application
would remove any benefit they would have over session variables hanging
out in memory.I
Jeremy Brodie wrote:
[...]
For a sturcture containing user information a persistant cookie requires
a connection with local file system and then CF needs to parse out the
information contained in the structure. Every time you call the cookie,
you need to run through the same series of
Is there any performance gain to only using cookie variables
instead of using session variables?
No, I've never seen any performance issues with using session variables,
generally. In fact, I would expect that they'd perform better than cookies,
since those cookies would then have to be part
, and
they are limited to a handful of data per site. and needing more code to validate their values.
Although each has its pros and cons, more time, effort, and thought has been place to maximize the performance and security of session variables, vs. the more home-grown appraoch when using pure cookies
OK, I seem to remember seeing this somewhere here before, but I can't
find anything in the archives. I'm using session vars to maintain
persistent login (as well as other user details that may be required)
but I'm receiving messages from users about errors saying that these
variables don't
/password scheme and I then have their member ID stored in a
session variable.Once they have an account on the site, however, they
are able to gain access to other franchise sites and shop at them.
The corporate site and the store sites are two separate CF
applications.Apparently CF session
hidden form vars?
-Original Message-
From: Lee Flier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 10:56 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Passing session variables between applications
Hey all,
I'm an experienced web scripting and database programmer but am quite new to
ColdFusion.I'm
as well as implementing a single-siogn-on environment.
Doug
-Original Message-
From: Lee Flier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 10:56 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Passing session variables between applications
Hey all,
I'm an experienced web scripting and database
That's no more secure than a URL var.
hidden form vars?
[Todays Threads]
[This Message]
[Subscription]
[Fast Unsubscribe]
[User Settings]
As Doug asked, are these all on the same server?
How do the domains look?
www.site.com
www.franchise1.site.com
www.franchise2.site.com
www.franchise3.site.com
Or
www.site.com/
www.site.com/franchise1/
www.site.com/franchise2/
www.site.com/franchise3/
Or
??
Can you give us some more info?
Tangorre, Michael wrote:
As Doug asked, are these all on the same server?
Yes.
How do the domains look?
www.site.com
www.franchise1.site.com
www.franchise2.site.com
www.franchise3.site.com
Yes, this is the format.
Lee
[Todays Threads]
[This Message]
[Subscription]
[Fast
401 - 500 of 1178 matches
Mail list logo
