Correction, a typo, it is NOT appropriate for this list.
On Sep 1, 2012, at 9:42 AM, Alex Zavatone z...@mac.com wrote:
On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:11 AM, Scott Anguish wrote:
This has gone far enough.
The thread is closed. It is appropriate for this list.
It is appropriate for this list.
30 13:57:44
To: cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com
Subject: Re: Sandboxing die.die.die
Sandboxing die.die.die
Code-Signing die.die.die
Javascript die.die.die
Kludgey CPUs die.die.die
Bodyshopping die.die.die
Contextless docs die.die.die
(throwing hammer at hare-brained power-mad forces of
evil
On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:11 AM, Scott Anguish wrote:
This has gone far enough.
The thread is closed. It is appropriate for this list.
It is appropriate for this list.
___
Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)
Please do not post admin
From: davel...@mac.com davel...@mac.com
To: cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com
Date: Thursday, 2012 August 30, 18:26
On 2012 Aug 30, at 18:09, z...@mac.com wrote:
From: Jeffrey Oleander jgo...@yahoo.com
Thu, 2012 Aug 30 13:57:44
To: cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com
Subject: Re: Sandboxing die.die.die
...@mac.com wrote:
From: Jeffrey Oleander jgo...@yahoo.com
Thu, 2012 Aug 30 13:57:44
To: cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com
Subject: Re: Sandboxing die.die.die
Sandboxing die.die.die
Code-Signing die.die.die
Javascript die.die.die
Kludgey CPUs die.die.die
Bodyshopping die.die.die
Contextless docs
...@mac.com davel...@mac.com
To: cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com
Date: Thursday, 2012 August 30, 18:26
On 2012 Aug 30, at 18:09, z...@mac.com wrote:
From: Jeffrey Oleander jgo...@yahoo.com
Thu, 2012 Aug 30 13:57:44
To: cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com
Subject: Re: Sandboxing die.die.die
Sandboxing
On 30 Aug 2012, at 05:10, John Bishop j...@mulligansoftware.com wrote:
On 30 Aug 2012 07:01:04 +0800, Roland King r...@rols.org wrote:
On 30 Aug, 2012, at 6:34 AM, Alex Zavatone z...@mac.com wrote:
But before anyone reads too far, I am making certain assumptions that may
indeed be
On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 1:59 AM, Greg Parker gpar...@apple.com wrote:
...
OS X does not require sandboxing. For apps that are not sandboxed,
traditional file access is unchanged. Mountain Lion's Gatekeeper can be
configured to require signed apps, but it does not enforce sandboxing.
Somehow,
Sandboxing die.die.die
Code-Signing die.die.die
Javascript die.die.die
Kludgey CPUs die.die.die
Bodyshopping die.die.die
(throwing hammer at hare-brained power-mad forces of evil)
Now, when can we cut the chains and get back to developing great apps
die.die.die
Sandboxing die.die.die
Code-Signing die.die.die
Javascript die.die.die
Kludgey CPUs die.die.die
Bodyshopping die.die.die
(throwing hammer at hare-brained power-mad forces of evil)
Now, when can we cut the chains and get back to developing great apps
13:57:44
To: cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com
Subject: Re: Sandboxing die.die.die
Sandboxing die.die.die
Code-Signing die.die.die
Javascript die.die.die
Kludgey CPUs die.die.die
Bodyshopping die.die.die
(throwing hammer at hare-brained power-mad forces of evil)
Now, when can we cut the chains
On 26 Aug 2012, at 03:02, Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote:
On 25/08/2012, at 8:14 PM, Mike Abdullah cocoa...@mikeabdullah.net wrote:
I had a funny feeling you were going to point the finger at us ;-)
Checked out the code, and I can assure you, iMedia is doing this:
NSURL* url =
On Aug 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Mike Abdullah wrote:
On 26 Aug 2012, at 03:02, Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote:
On 25/08/2012, at 8:14 PM, Mike Abdullah cocoa...@mikeabdullah.net wrote:
I had a funny feeling you were going to point the finger at us ;-)
Checked out the code, and
On 30 Aug, 2012, at 6:34 AM, Alex Zavatone z...@mac.com wrote:
But before anyone reads too far, I am making certain assumptions that may
indeed be false. That iOS and Mac OS app Sandboxing is absolutely required
and you can't make apps without it enabled, whether the apps are destined for
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 25, 2012, at 10:02 PM, Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote:
Well.
This code was based on a very old version ..., probably from 2008 or 9.
Did you really just call something 'very old' from 2008 under a subject line
that includes
.die.die.die?
Sorry.
On Aug 29, 2012, at 3:34 PM, Alex Zavatone z...@mac.com wrote:
But before anyone reads too far, I am making certain assumptions that may
indeed be false. That iOS and Mac OS app Sandboxing is absolutely required
and you can't make apps without it enabled, whether the apps are destined for
On 30 Aug 2012 07:01:04 +0800, Roland King r...@rols.org wrote:
On 30 Aug, 2012, at 6:34 AM, Alex Zavatone z...@mac.com wrote:
But before anyone reads too far, I am making certain assumptions that may
indeed be false. That iOS and Mac OS app Sandboxing is absolutely required
and you
On 24/08/2012, at 10:35 PM, Mike Abdullah cocoa...@mikeabdullah.net wrote:
I’m surprised by this. The path-based APIs were seriously handling a path
beginning with file:// in the way that you expect?
Apparently so. This code was originally derived from Karelia's iMedia browser
and I never
On 25 Aug 2012, at 09:09, Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote:
On 24/08/2012, at 10:35 PM, Mike Abdullah cocoa...@mikeabdullah.net wrote:
I’m surprised by this. The path-based APIs were seriously handling a path
beginning with file:// in the way that you expect?
Apparently so.
On 25/08/2012, at 8:14 PM, Mike Abdullah cocoa...@mikeabdullah.net wrote:
I had a funny feeling you were going to point the finger at us ;-)
Checked out the code, and I can assure you, iMedia is doing this:
NSURL* url = [NSURL URLWithString:library];
NSString* path = [url path];
Where
On 24 Aug 2012, at 00:33, Graham Cox wrote:
On 24/08/2012, at 3:11 AM, Greg Parker gpar...@apple.com wrote:
On Aug 22, 2012, at 7:14 PM, Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote:
Turns out the problem I was having with this is because of the behaviour of
[NSURL
Gatekeeper uses the Quarantine mechanisms. Installer does not set the
Quarantine flag, so the installed app does not trigger Gatekeeper.
Basically if you have explicitly installed an app, you are expressing that you
trust it. Or, expressed along the lines of the intent-driven model... I've
On 23 Aug 2012, at 03:14, Graham Cox wrote:
On 23/08/2012, at 9:37 AM, Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote:
Trying to work around this is proving impossible with the current sandbox
implementation - there are too many opaque hacks in the system that mean you
cannot trust the URLs
On 23/08/2012, at 6:48 PM, Mike Abdullah cocoa...@mikeabdullah.net wrote:
Your description here sounds unlikely. The URL APIs are extremely well-tested
and robust; I would be surprised if you really have found a bug like this.
What is the path you were sending into +fileURLWith… ? Your
On 23 Aug 2012, at 11:52, Graham Cox wrote:
On 23/08/2012, at 6:48 PM, Mike Abdullah cocoa...@mikeabdullah.net wrote:
Your description here sounds unlikely. The URL APIs are extremely
well-tested and robust; I would be surprised if you really have found a bug
like this.
What is the
On Aug 22, 2012, at 7:14 PM, Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote:
Turns out the problem I was having with this is because of the behaviour of
[NSURL fileURLWithPath:isDirectory:].
When I passed the path to the iPhoto database file (~/Pictures/iPhoto
Library/Album.xml) the resulting URL
On 23 Aug 2012, at 18:11, Greg Parker wrote:
On Aug 22, 2012, at 7:14 PM, Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote:
Turns out the problem I was having with this is because of the behaviour of
[NSURL fileURLWithPath:isDirectory:].
When I passed the path to the iPhoto database file
On 24/08/2012, at 3:11 AM, Greg Parker gpar...@apple.com wrote:
On Aug 22, 2012, at 7:14 PM, Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote:
Turns out the problem I was having with this is because of the behaviour of
[NSURL fileURLWithPath:isDirectory:].
When I passed the path to the iPhoto
On Thu, Aug 23, 2012, at 04:33 PM, Graham Cox wrote:
In fact the string doesn't contain a tilde. I think in summarising my
issue I glossed over the exact situation, which is that I have a string
which is file://localhost/Users/me/Pictures/iPhoto Library/Album.xml.
Just FYI, this is not a valid
On 24/08/2012, at 10:11 AM, Kyle Sluder k...@ksluder.com wrote:
Just FYI, this is not a valid URL. The space in iPhoto Library needs
to be percent-encoded.
It is, in fact. I retyped it in Mail.
So I think I'm correct to be using [NSURL URLWithString:] here (tell me
if that's not right!)
On Aug 23, 2012, at 5:41 PM, Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote:
Hang on, given the above string (which as far as I can tell is a 'proper' URL
and not just a path), +URLWithString works fine and
+fileURLWithPath:isDirectory makes a complete hash of it.
Well, I was operating under the
On 24/08/2012, at 10:47 AM, Kyle Sluder k...@ksluder.com wrote:
You're using it correctly, but I'm suggesting that the better approach would
not use it at all. Rather than constructing a URL string and creating an
NSURL out of it, it's better to create a file path and create an NSURL with
On Aug 21, 2012, at 8:47 PM, Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote:
Is sandboxing the MOST HATEFUL and useless API Apple have ever created? I
can't think of a worse one in 30 years
It would be hard to beat the iOS Keychain API (which they are now trying to
foist upon us in OS X by
On Aug 21, 2012, at 22:45, Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote:
On 22/08/2012, at 2:46 PM, Laurent Daudelin laur...@nemesys-soft.com wrote:
That's really bad news. I have a synchronization app on the App Store and I
was hoping to update it with those security-scoped URLs but if it
On Aug 21, 2012, at 11:02 PM, Jens Alfke j...@mooseyard.com wrote:
But then, I haven't tried sandboxing yet. It sounds almost like some
exquisite form of BDSM: taking away all of your freedom and then making you
beg to get little bits back. Does it come with safe-words?
Irrespective of
Regarding Sandboxing on Mac OS or iOS, the situations I want to see addressed
are these:
The app gets regularly updated. Preferences must exist out side of the app.
What easy and straightforward method that does not require the developer to
jump through hoops supports preservation of app
On Aug 21, 2012, at 11:54 PM, Kyle Sluder k...@ksluder.com wrote:
On Aug 21, 2012, at 11:02 PM, Jens Alfke j...@mooseyard.com wrote:
But then, I haven't tried sandboxing yet. It sounds almost like some
exquisite form of BDSM: taking away all of your freedom and then making you
beg to
On Aug 22, 2012, at 8:29 AM, Jayson Adams jay...@circusponies.com wrote:
Ah, that explains why all of Apple's apps are sandboxed Right.
The big ones are: Mail, Safari, Preview.
There have been legitimate problems with the rollout of sandboxing. It doesn't
support certain interactions
On Aug 22, 2012, at 11:40 AM, Kyle Sluder wrote:
On Aug 22, 2012, at 8:29 AM, Jayson Adams jay...@circusponies.com wrote:
Ah, that explains why all of Apple's apps are sandboxed Right.
The big ones are: Mail, Safari, Preview.
There have been legitimate problems with the rollout
On Aug 22, 2012, at 8:52 AM, Alex Zavatone z...@mac.com wrote:
Actually Kyle, when you're not catering to the mass market, but targeted
clients, the user requires you to do the right thing.
And the OS enforceS that requirement on their behalf by sandboxing.
Thankfully we have Developer
They can *expect* that you will do the right thing. But they can't be expected
to *know* that you really are.
On 22 Aug 2012, at 16:52, Alex Zavatone z...@mac.com wrote:
On Aug 22, 2012, at 11:40 AM, Kyle Sluder wrote:
On Aug 22, 2012, at 8:29 AM, Jayson Adams jay...@circusponies.com
On Aug 22, 2012, at 9:52 AM, Alex Zavatone wrote:
Actually Kyle, when you're not catering to the mass market, but targeted
clients, the user requires you to do the right thing.
For some of us, that even includes contracts which put actual liability on us
for failures, and require us to
On Aug 22, 2012, at 12:00 PM, Kyle Sluder wrote:
On Aug 22, 2012, at 8:52 AM, Alex Zavatone z...@mac.com wrote:
Actually Kyle, when you're not catering to the mass market, but targeted
clients, the user requires you to do the right thing.
And the OS enforceS that requirement on
On Aug 22, 2012, at 12:01 PM, Derek Chesterfield wrote:
They can *expect* that you will do the right thing. But they can't be
expected to *know* that you really are.
Well, if I don't, I get fired. That's enough motivation for me.
On 22 Aug 2012, at 16:52, Alex Zavatone z...@mac.com
On Aug 22, 2012, at 9:26 AM, Alex Zavatone z...@mac.com wrote:
On Aug 22, 2012, at 12:01 PM, Derek Chesterfield wrote:
They can *expect* that you will do the right thing. But they can't be
expected to *know* that you really are.
Well, if I don't, I get fired. That's enough motivation
On Aug 22, 2012, at 8:40 AM, Kyle Sluder wrote:
On Aug 22, 2012, at 8:29 AM, Jayson Adams jay...@circusponies.com wrote:
Ah, that explains why all of Apple's apps are sandboxed Right.
The big ones are: Mail, Safari, Preview.
How about Finder? AddressBook? Calendar? iPhoto?
Why not just codeSign an application? It will still will be able to be
downloaded by anyone using the default security setting: Mac App Store and
identified developers. It just won't be able to be in the App store (I guess).
Jim Merkel
___
Cocoa-dev
There are some MAS-only features such as Notification Center (I believe) and
iCloud, so its quite nice to be able to use those features.
On Aug 22, 2012, at 2:42 PM, James Merkel jmerk...@mac.com wrote:
Why not just codeSign an application? It will still will be able to be
downloaded by
Ok, for my particular application I don't see any need for iCloud or
Notification center. For other applications, YMMV.
Jim Merkel
On Aug 22, 2012, at 12:51 PM, Alex Kac a...@webis.net wrote:
There are some MAS-only features such as Notification Center (I believe) and
iCloud, so its quite
On Aug 22, 2012, at 12:51 PM, Alex Kac wrote:
There are some MAS-only features such as Notification Center (I believe) and
iCloud, so its quite nice to be able to use those features.
Notification Center is usable by any app; I'm using it and App Store isn't even
a possibility at this point.
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012, at 01:02 PM, Lee Ann Rucker wrote:
Notification Center is usable by any app; I'm using it and App Store
isn't even a possibility at this point.
I believe your app has to be code-signed. But any valid code signature
should work.
--Kyle Sluder
On Aug 22, 2012, at 1:27 PM, Kyle Sluder k...@ksluder.com wrote:
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012, at 01:02 PM, Lee Ann Rucker wrote:
Notification Center is usable by any app; I'm using it and App Store
isn't even a possibility at this point.
I believe your app has to be code-signed. But any valid
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Alex Zavatone z...@mac.com wrote:
Regarding Sandboxing on Mac OS or iOS, the situations I want to see addressed
are these:
The app gets regularly updated. Preferences must exist out side of the app.
What easy and straightforward method that does not
On 23/08/2012, at 1:18 AM, Alex Zavatone z...@mac.com wrote:
Regarding Sandboxing on Mac OS or iOS, the situations I want to see addressed
are these:
The app gets regularly updated. Preferences must exist out side of the app.
What easy and straightforward method that does not require
On 22 Aug 2012, at 21:31, James Merkel wrote:
On Aug 22, 2012, at 1:27 PM, Kyle Sluder k...@ksluder.com wrote:
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012, at 01:02 PM, Lee Ann Rucker wrote:
Notification Center is usable by any app; I'm using it and App Store
isn't even a possibility at this point.
I
Since the preferences folder lives in the app, the preferences are deleted when
the app is deleted, or reinstalled. That's what I've seen.
According to the docs, (and the scratch files in your /library folder if you
use the simulator, everything is in the app and nowhere else. If reality is
-
From: Mike Abdullah cocoa...@mikeabdullah.net
To: James Merkel jmerk...@mac.com
Cc: cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: Sandboxing die.die.die
On 22 Aug 2012, at 21:31, James Merkel wrote:
On Aug 22, 2012, at 1:27 PM, Kyle Sluder k...@ksluder.com
On 23/08/2012, at 10:02 AM, Alex Zavatone z...@mac.com wrote:
Since the preferences folder lives in the app, the preferences are deleted
when the app is deleted, or reinstalled. That's what I've seen.
According to the docs, (and the scratch files in your /library folder if you
use the
I think Graham is mostly talking about OS X while you are obviously on iOS,
Alex….
-Laurent.
--
Laurent Daudelin
AIM/iChat/Skype:LaurentDaudelin
http://www.nemesys-soft.com/
Logiciels Nemesys Software
On Aug 22, 2012, at 8:12 PM, Graham Cox wrote:
On 23/08/2012, at 10:02 AM, Alex Zavatone z...@mac.com wrote:
Since the preferences folder lives in the app, the preferences are deleted
when the app is deleted, or reinstalled. That's what I've seen.
According to the docs, (and the
On Aug 22, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Jayson Adams wrote:
I'm wouldn't waste my time with third-party apps when there are lots of other
targets that come pre-installed on every single machine.
Here here.
We are dealing with the same issue as Graham and this is keeping one of our
Apps out of the
On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 09:37:05 +1000, Graham Cox said:
The only bright spot in all of this is the fact that on Mac at least you
have a channel other than the App Store to deliver apps, but since the
App Store is responsible for 90% of our sales, it would be commercial
suicide to leave it. So we're
, August 22, 2012 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: Sandboxing die.die.die
On 22 Aug 2012, at 21:31, James Merkel wrote:
On Aug 22, 2012, at 1:27 PM, Kyle Sluder k...@ksluder.com wrote:
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012, at 01:02 PM, Lee Ann Rucker wrote:
Notification Center is usable by any app; I'm using
To: James Merkel jmerk...@mac.com
Cc: cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: Sandboxing die.die.die
On 22 Aug 2012, at 21:31, James Merkel wrote:
On Aug 22, 2012, at 1:27 PM, Kyle Sluder k...@ksluder.com wrote:
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012, at 01:02 PM
On 23/08/2012, at 10:45 AM, Todd Heberlein todd_heberl...@mac.com wrote:
Where life is made difficult is with more general access to the file system,
which is a perfectly legitimate thing to do. A user stores various media all
over the file system and there is no reason why an app shouldn't
I don't think that it's physically possible to resolve this issue - basically,
we're trying to have our cake (er, have our security) and eat it too (er, use
the functionality of the app).
Consider a 'shoebox' app that doesn't deal with run-of-the-mill media (photos,
movies, etc)... let's say
On 23/08/2012, at 9:37 AM, Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote:
Trying to work around this is proving impossible with the current sandbox
implementation - there are too many opaque hacks in the system that mean you
cannot trust the URLs you get from anywhere to actually point to the
On 23/08/2012, at 11:33 AM, Britt Durbrow
bdurb...@rattlesnakehillsoftworks.com wrote:
there's no programatic way to tell the difference between the two
Indeed, which is why you need to encourage the use of human intelligence
instead, which very often can tell when something is fishy.
When
On Aug 22, 2012, at 7:16 PM, Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote:
On 23/08/2012, at 11:33 AM, Britt Durbrow
bdurb...@rattlesnakehillsoftworks.com wrote:
there's no programatic way to tell the difference between the two
Indeed, which is why you need to encourage the use of human
Is sandboxing the MOST HATEFUL and useless API Apple have ever created? I can't
think of a worse one in 30 years
Anyway ranting aside,
I have a browser which allows the user to add folders to a source list and it
then scans that folder for image files and displays them, including in any
On Aug 21, 2012, at 20:47, Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote:
Is sandboxing the MOST HATEFUL and useless API Apple have ever created? I
can't think of a worse one in 30 years
Anyway ranting aside,
I have a browser which allows the user to add folders to a source list and it
On 22/08/2012, at 1:47 PM, Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote:
The problem is that all of the files and folders INSIDE the folder created
from the security bookmark are being disallowed by sandboxd
Here's a typical refusal report.
22/08/12 2:44:33.229 PM sandboxd[64627]: ([64596])
On 22/08/2012, at 2:46 PM, Laurent Daudelin laur...@nemesys-soft.com wrote:
That's really bad news. I have a synchronization app on the App Store and I
was hoping to update it with those security-scoped URLs but if it doesn't
work for the content of folders, then I'm hosed.
OK, I think I
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