[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of mike
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 1:28 PM
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Mirroring. Data loss can happen at a lot of stages. A mirror isn't
going
to increase your chances of losing data in itself. He had
At 11:17 PM -0500 9/7/08, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
Eric you forgot one important as[ect in this also.
Wall Streets expected gains.
All publicly held companies are expected to perform by Wall Street
and they set the numbers.
If a company comes in low for the quarter they are having a
If a company comes in low for the quarter they are having a problem
and it leads to stock sell off, which means less capital to work
with.
How do you figure that?
Many companies like to buy things with stock, not cash. Hence a lower
stock price actually does result in less capital to work
It also effects how they can borrow and what they pay.
I was just reading an article the other day about the big three auto
companies in Detroit.
Because their stocks are rated just above junk status they are having
a hard time borrowing money to upgrade. They are looking to Uncle
Sam for
That is not greed it is called expected return on investment.
Not all profits are bad.
Not all profits are good.
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We pay you out of our profits if you own our stock, you own the company.
Some companies, like MS, hold on to their profits. What's up with that?
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It is called return on investment and there is an expectation of a
percentage of earnings.
Some companies keep a cash reserve for buy outs and reinvesting in
the company. They also buy back stock to increase it's value.
Public Service Commissions (they are called different things in
At 11:50 AM -0500 9/8/08, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
It also effects how they can borrow and what they pay.
I was just reading an article the other day about the big three auto
companies in Detroit.
Because their stocks are rated just above junk status they are
having a hard time
It did not state clearly. Just that they are having a hard time
borrowing money due to their low performing financial status.
Stewart
At 01:12 PM 9/8/2008, you wrote:
At 11:50 AM -0500 9/8/08, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
It also effects how they can borrow and what they pay.
I was just
It is called return on investment and there is an expectation of a
percentage of earnings.
Expectation is not an entitlement. There are good profits and bad
profits. See note on mafia.
Some companies keep a cash reserve for buy outs and reinvesting in
the company. They also buy back stock
Larry,
For photos, consider storage in the cloud. Smugmug.com allows unlimited
photo storage for an annual fee. There are also paid versions of Google's
Picasa that provide large amounts of storage. The disadvantage is that it
will take a really long time to upload (or download) 200 GB, but
that's called dilution. got 1 billion share out. issue 100 mil to purchase a
new hot yacht, and a hot honey for decoration, and the stock depreciates by 10%.
At 11:42 AM 9/8/2008, you wrote:
If a company comes in low for the quarter they are having a problem
and it leads to stock sell off,
Why do you think every thing is a defense of MS$? (By the way the
Mafia is an illegal entity and crime never is justified.)
I have no friggin idea how much they hold back and I never mentioned
them once in all I wrote. I was giving broad general Brush strokes.
Me thinks you are showing
My own recent experience with Jungle Disk and the boss's laptop full
of unedited family pictures has not been without trouble.
First, some people just don't have the dedication to process any of
these pictures. Upon investigation, I found folder after folder full
of huge pics of really dumb stuff
The essence of good management is the ability to properly
assess risk.
The essence of good management is turning a profit.
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The essence of good management is both of the above ... as neatly
demonstrated by the recent history of the US housing loan business...
db
Eric S. Sande wrote:
The essence of good management is the ability to properly assess risk.
The essence of good management is turning a profit.
The essence of good management is turning a profit.
I can understand the greed is good philosophy, but I think we were put
on earth for a higher purpose.
There is also the problem of the sort-sighted pursuit of profits leading
to long-term ruin. If the likes of Comcast Cox are allowed to run
Adding to the robustness of modern hard drives. I just read that when
SMART drive performance data is sent back to a Mac (not all disk
controllers do this), the Mac will automatically move and disable bad
disk blocks.
I don't know about Windows.
www.macintouch.com/readereports/harddrives
Are not all hard drives doomed to end, all hard drivers doomed to go soft,
all soft drives doomed to hardened or fail?
Hardly driven,
Randall
On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Adding to the robustness of modern hard drives. I just read that when
SMART
Are not all hard drives doomed to end, all hard drivers doomed to go soft,
all soft drives doomed to hardened or fail?
With a MTBF around 30 years, I expect you will toss the drive for other
reasons before it fails.
I forget the date, but it has been calculated that the sun will at some
point
Maybe the email didn't get through...Tom, which hard drives do you buy that
aren't available at the Toys R Us?
On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Are not all hard drives doomed to end, all hard drivers doomed to go soft,
all soft drives doomed to hardened or
I can understand the greed is good philosophy, but I think we were put
on earth for a higher purpose.
OK, I can see that and I may be oversimplifying.
But let's get real here.
You've got your own private business and you don't work for
charity, I'm sure you charge your clients a market rate
Eric you forgot one important as[ect in this also.
Wall Streets expected gains.
All publicly held companies are expected to perform by Wall Street
and they set the numbers.
If a company comes in low for the quarter they are having a problem
and it leads to stock sell off, which means less
Wall Streets expected gains.
What part of a dividend check do you not understand?
We pay you out of our profits if you own our stock, you
own the company.
You get to vote on policy. Buy a few shares. Buy a lot
of shares. This is a perfect time to buy shares.
I value your support.
I agree and understand what you say. What I was also pointing out is
that Wall street expects companies to gain and make money. That is
part of the economy and free market.
If company A does not meet earning expectations they get a no vote
from Wall Street and their stock drops. If they
Are not we better off trying to do our best protecting all types of errors?
Not necessarily. This is a great example of the importance of good
judgement. There are 2 types of errors with soft occurring 98% of the
time, and hard 2%. You want to make a major effort to protect against
the 2% and
It's not a matter of not understanding when MY OWN experience is that I have
had more hard then soft errors. You seem to have a consistent problem of
believing your experience equals facts. Just because in your experience you
have had more soft errors then hard, doesn't make it true for everyone
what do you do to protect against the 98% soft errors Tom?
db
mike wrote:
It's not a matter of not understanding when MY OWN experience is that I have
had more hard then soft errors. You seem to have a consistent problem of
believing your experience equals facts. Just because in your
It's not a matter of not understanding when MY OWN experience is that I have
had more hard then soft errors.
Stop buying drives from Toys-R-Us.
You seem to have a consistent problem of believing your experience equals
facts.
The change in MTBF stats from 2,000 to 300,000 is not just my
So enlighten us as to where you buy hard drives that they never fail.
On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 12:04 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It's not a matter of not understanding when MY OWN experience is that I
have
had more hard then soft errors.
Stop buying drives from Toys-R-Us.
You
What do you do to protect against the 98% of soft errors, Tom?
On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
what do you do to protect against the 98% soft errors Tom?
That is an entirely different question, having nothing to do with my
disdain of RAID. No I won't
So enlighten us as to where you buy hard drives that they never fail.
Being silly gets you no credit.
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I had no doubt I would not get an answer from you.
On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So enlighten us as to where you buy hard drives that they never fail.
Being silly gets you no credit.
Actually I don't think this is right. Hardware RAID does crc on the data,
so corruption is almost impossible, the RAID would drop the bad drive off if
it started returning errors. Of course this is moo as joey says if he is
doing soft RAID. So the question is...hard or soft?
You are still
Actually I don't think this is right. Hardware RAID does crc on the data,
so corruption is almost impossible, the RAID would drop the bad drive off if
it started returning errors. Of course this is moo as joey says if he is
doing soft RAID. So the question is...hard or soft?
Mike
On Wed, Sep
Remember there are like 7-8 types of RAIDs these days. I really can't
remember now what the OP eventually decided on.
The RAID controller itself adds a whole separate layer of complexity
to controlling a disk, regardless if it's hard or soft. Don't forget -
while RAIDs are rebuilding, they can
Mirroring. Data loss can happen at a lot of stages. A mirror isn't going
to increase your chances of losing data in itself. He had three drives, all
with the same data...seems reasonable to me.
Mike
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 11:55 AM, Tony B [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Remember there are like 7-8
Actually I don't think this is right. Hardware RAID does crc on the data,
so corruption is almost impossible, the RAID would drop the bad drive off if
it started returning errors. Of course this is moo as joey says if he is
doing soft RAID. So the question is...hard or soft?
You keep
That's what CRC does...why do you think it won't? You could possibly argue
that if you have a bad controler that still functions 98% AND a bad hard
drive that still gives the illusion of working that this could
happen...otherwise this makes no sense. And under your way, with one drive
in the
Okay. Now I understand the RAID fetish. You are not worrying about the
logical structure of the drive. You are focusing on the hardware and
testing bits and bytes as they go by. CRC has nothing to do with the
logical structure of the drive, just the bits and bytes as they are being
So then how do you correct soft errors? You seem to have a soft fetish...I
want to protect both, you don't seem to feel the need to protect the
hardware side. Hence why you keep talking about mtbf.
Are not we better off trying to do our best protecting all types of errors?
If I hire a IT
You need two solutions--backup and archive. They're different. Backup is
for day to day tasks to keep current files on hand. Archives are for the
files you need to keep but may not look at until next year or later.
Consider using network drives for backup. Buy the most reliable brand
bare
So would you recommend this pair of hard drives be setup as a RAID? Or
at least 2 independent hard drives? I sort of like the idea of keeping
one drive (or one pair of drives) off site.
You want the two drives decoupled. RAID would immediately copy an error
from one drive to the other -- not
I just bought a 500 Gig Seagate external hard drive, even though I only have
110 Gig hard drive. I Say I have 5 to 10 gigs of files (mostly text) I
don't need to refer to on a regular basis. Couldn't I back them up onto the
external and delete them from the hard drive, to improve performance?
You need two solutions--backup and archive. They're different. Backup is
for day to day tasks to keep current files on hand. Archives are for the
files you need to keep but may not look at until next year or later.
I see this changing. With disk storage as cheap as it is today, more and
more
Not to jump into the RAID vs No-RAID fray... but I seek a relatively
easily managed data backup solution. I've got a photography business
and am trying to keep photos from various shoots around. At this point,
I'm mostly looking for the hardware answer. I'll worry about the
software side of
The trouble with CD and DVD backups is most just don't keep up with it
enough for it to be viable.
It's a lot of slow laborious work and indexing/ cataloging coupled with
shuttling to offsite storage. It doesn't accommodate incremental backup
unless you are running some backup software which
can usually remember
when a job was.
Larry
-Original Message-
From: Computer Guys Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of db
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 12:38 PM
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
The trouble with CD and DVD
Photos are usually best archived to DVD. But if you've got 200gb of
archival photos it would take a month to burn all that.
Yeah... I've looked into DVDs for backups. When I first started the
biz, I used CDs for backup - one in my desk, the other into my safe
deposit box but that's gotten
I'd stick with what you have going now, a true backup and then mirrored
drives. I don't think anyone can say for sure that in a year a DVD will
still work, I have some from a couple years ago that are starting to error
out. I think it partially has to do with the drive they were originally
That would be the normal state of events, but since the OS may 'touch'
the drive occasinally it may not happen that often. Just turn it off
(after properly stopping it).
On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 7:18 PM, rlsimon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I back up my stuff to an external USB HDD ...it comes on with
Never use the words hard drive and archival in the same sentence.
Hard drives can and do fail suddenly and without warning.
But much less frequently than they used to.
Using a pair of hard drives should suffice.
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http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=3
930502sku=S130-8032SRCCODE=WEM1693C 1tb free agent drive $169 ...not bad
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Which is why I specified 'drive' singular. As in this case, some
things these days are just too large for optical media. In this case,
a pair of drives, updated monthly and with alternates being kept
off-premises, would serve.
On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 10:19 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
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