Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

Is there any concerns about the solution I'm proposing or should I move forward ? On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Vivien Nicolas wrote: > > > On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 6:10 PM, Mounir Lamouri wrote: > >> Note that Chrome 46 has a way to work around the

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 9:26 PM, wrote: > On Saturday, October 10, 2015 at 4:28:30 AM UTC-7, Mounir Lamouri wrote: >> On Sat, 10 Oct 2015, at 02:02, zbranie...@mozilla.com wrote: >> > On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 10:51:54 AM UTC-7, Mounir Lamouri wrote: >> > > As far as

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 6:10 PM, Mounir Lamouri wrote: > Note that Chrome 46 has a way to work around the white screen while a > page load using a new property in the Manifest. If a website added to > the homescreen on Chrome Android has a background_color information, it >

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Saturday, October 10, 2015 at 4:28:30 AM UTC-7, Mounir Lamouri wrote: > On Sat, 10 Oct 2015, at 02:02, zbranie...@mozilla.com wrote: > > On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 10:51:54 AM UTC-7, Mounir Lamouri wrote: > > > As far as speed feeling goes, they would win to show something as soon > > > as

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Sat, 10 Oct 2015, at 02:02, zbranie...@mozilla.com wrote: > On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 10:51:54 AM UTC-7, Mounir Lamouri wrote: > > As far as speed feeling goes, they would win to show something as soon > > as possible and handle any post-first paint loading themselves. > > That is

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

There should be an answer in the middle. Showing something as soon as possible is best iif it not a half baked part of the UI. So for example showing the navigation chrome first is good, if it is not rebuilding right after. Then showing the app content. But I'm not convinced any of us is the best

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 10:51:54 AM UTC-7, Mounir Lamouri wrote: > As far as speed feeling goes, they would win to show something as soon > as possible and handle any post-first paint loading themselves. That is unfortunately not consistent with my experience. People tend to perceive

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015, at 16:27, Vivien Nicolas wrote: > On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 6:10 PM, Mounir Lamouri wrote: > > > Note that Chrome 46 has a way to work around the white screen while a > > page load using a new property in the Manifest. If a website added to > > the homescreen

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 6:10 PM, Mounir Lamouri wrote: > Note that Chrome 46 has a way to work around the white screen while a > page load using a new property in the Manifest. If a website added to > the homescreen on Chrome Android has a background_color information, it >

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

Note that Chrome 46 has a way to work around the white screen while a page load using a new property in the Manifest. If a website added to the homescreen on Chrome Android has a background_color information, it will be used while the page loads. After Chrome gets the first paint following a

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Mounir Lamouri wrote: > Note that Chrome 46 has a way to work around the white screen while a > page load using a new property in the Manifest. If a website added to > the homescreen on Chrome Android has a background_color information, it > will

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

I'm kind of late on the thread... While James's solution may work I don't think this is exactly what we want. My understanding of why the current solution work is: 1. The background-color of the page is retrieved when the load event happens at

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

I also forgot to say that the proposed solution does not help for cases like bug 1199674 afaict. ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On 8/6/15 4:09 AM, Jonas Sicking wrote: Agreed. Would it work to define that they behave like inside of a display:none layout tree? Or will that still force some cascade calculations to happen? If you getComputedStyle then you'll still end up doing style computation in display:none subtrees.

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 3:59:23 PM UTC-7, James Burke wrote: There does not seem to be a need for extra APIs in the browser for controlling layouts or paints using this approach: Great work James! I like that we can play with this approach right now, but I'm wondering if we should still

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Zibi Braniecki zbigniew.branie...@gmail.com wrote: My concern here is that if we don't, we're basically saying that the right way to write webapps, is to put their content in a template and then inject the template into body when we're done with startup JS.

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On 2015-08-04 3:08 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote: On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Bobby Holley bobbyhol...@gmail.com wrote: How about a scheme in which there can be N such meta elements, and the painting only happens when all of them are gone (or some timeout occurs)? That solve the common case that

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

My assumption was that the preferred fallback would be equivalent to the behavior of the meta element were ignored. I guess people might want to hand-implement their own lazy-loading stuff, but given that the site works without it, most people probably won't. On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 6:57 AM,

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 5:17 PM, James Burke jbu...@mozilla.com wrote: https://github.com/jrburke/fxos-startup-test There are three variations mentioned in the README, each with a profile.sh capture Profile link: I did a pass at the Regular profile and put the notes here:

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:53 AM, Anne van Kesteren ann...@annevk.nl wrote: On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 9:10 PM, James Burke jbu...@mozilla.com wrote: If the meta tag, or whatever the toggle becomes, is set, then I expect if the page's JS asks for a DOM element's box properties, it will get values

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 1:02 AM, Bobby Holley bobbyhol...@gmail.com wrote: I'll defer to Anne et al on this one, but I think adding a second pattern for delivering load notifications is worse than the inconvenience of the existing pattern. We will be adding document.loaded, script.loaded, and

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 1:07 AM, Anne van Kesteren ann...@annevk.nl wrote: A simple solution here would be to simply use MutationObservers to detect when the last meta is removed. Any time that layout properties are queried after that they could behave like they currently do, i.e. force a

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 10:09 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: Agreed. Would it work to define that they behave like inside of a display:none layout tree? Or will that still force some cascade calculations to happen? That might actually be sufficient for now, yes. --

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 9:10 PM, James Burke jbu...@mozilla.com wrote: If the meta tag, or whatever the toggle becomes, is set, then I expect if the page's JS asks for a DOM element's box properties, it will get values like 0 for sizes, since I believe the goal is to avoid the browser doing

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: Lots of features force layout. Accessing any layout related properties like .offsetTop or .getComputedStyle() force a layout. Yes. dglazkov has a library that enumerates the full set. CSSOM should just define it. Having an

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

Le 30/07/2015 22:28, Jeff Muizelaar a écrit : Can't you just make everything display:none until you're ready to show it? Note that even with display: none we run refreshStyles everytime an element is added to the page. I don't know if this is fast when the whole document.body is hidden though.

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On 03/08/15 16:46, Bobby Holley wrote: On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 12:37 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 12:32 AM, Anne van Kesteren ann...@annevk.nl wrote: On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 9:23 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: I think something like a meta

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Bobby Holley bobbyhol...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 12:10 PM, James Burke jbu...@mozilla.com wrote: If the meta tag, or whatever the toggle becomes, is set, then I expect if the page's JS asks for a DOM element's box properties, it will get values

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 3:51 PM, Zibi Braniecki zbigniew.branie...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not sure if the multiple-meta solution is going to be really working well. From the perspective of a gaia app developer that means that he has to inject manually a new meta for every library he wants to

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

I'm not sure if the multiple-meta solution is going to be really working well. From the perspective of a gaia app developer that means that he has to inject manually a new meta for every library he wants to use. That feels weird. I would rather expect a single meta that app controls fully,

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

(And note that it would be trivial to implement a programmatic promise-y API on top of this as a library, if people want that). On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Bobby Holley bobbyhol...@gmail.com wrote: How about a scheme in which there can be N such meta elements, and the painting only

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 12:10 PM, James Burke jbu...@mozilla.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Bobby Holley bobbyhol...@gmail.com wrote: How about a scheme in which there can be N such meta elements, and the painting only happens when all of them are gone (or some timeout occurs)?

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Bobby Holley bobbyhol...@gmail.com wrote: How about a scheme in which there can be N such meta elements, and the painting only happens when all of them are gone (or some timeout occurs)? That solve the common case that Jonas is talking about, and allows

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Anne van Kesteren ann...@annevk.nl wrote: On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 11:07 AM, James Graham ja...@hoppipolla.co.uk wrote: I am extremely wary of designing a solution like this where there's a single master switch that any code can unilaterally flip; if the assumption

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 12:37 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 12:32 AM, Anne van Kesteren ann...@annevk.nl wrote: On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 9:23 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: I think something like a meta name=do-not-render might be a simpler

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 10:28 PM, Robert O'Callahan rob...@ocallahan.org wrote: On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 4:53 PM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: The need is not for an event, no? But rather for an API which allows the page to tell the browser that it's ready for initial rendering? Right.

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 12:32 AM, Anne van Kesteren ann...@annevk.nl wrote: On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 9:23 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: I think something like a meta name=do-not-render might be a simpler solution here. Coupled with either simply removing the meta from the DOM, or

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 7:59 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: Ah, yes, that makes sense. Is this yet another API where we want to basically have an internal list of promises? someInstance.doNotRenderUntil(promise) -- https://annevankesteren.nl/

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 9:23 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: I think something like a meta name=do-not-render might be a simpler solution here. Coupled with either simply removing the meta from the DOM, or having a function which indicates that rendering is ok. Neither of those deal

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 10:47:26 PM UTC-7, Wilson Page wrote: Are we expecting that this will reduce unwanted layout/paint cycles on the critical path and thus minimise the 'white flash of doom'? Absolutely. I believe that that's the primary goal, to replace the current race condition

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 11:12 PM, Anne van Kesteren ann...@annevk.nl wrote: On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 7:59 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: Ah, yes, that makes sense. Is this yet another API where we want to basically have an internal list of promises?

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 2:41 PM, Robert O'Callahan rob...@ocallahan.org wrote: On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 8:15 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: Often times the chrome of a webapp is ready before various other things that are loaded during initial page load is loaded. OK then, I guess a

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 11:58 AM, Zibi Braniecki zbigniew.branie...@gmail.com wrote: So maybe we would need another event that the website fires to indicate when it for paint/cache/screenshot. Assuming pages have an easy way to block the 'load' event until they're ready, can this just be the

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 2:03:28 AM UTC-7, Robert O'Callahan wrote: On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 11:58 AM, Zibi Braniecki wrote: So maybe we would need another event that the website fires to indicate when it for paint/cache/screenshot. Assuming pages have an easy way to block the 'load'

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 2:03 AM, Robert O'Callahan rob...@ocallahan.org wrote: On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 11:58 AM, Zibi Braniecki zbigniew.branie...@gmail.com wrote: So maybe we would need another event that the website fires to indicate when it for paint/cache/screenshot. Assuming pages have

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

Are we expecting that this will reduce unwanted layout/paint cycles on the critical path and thus minimise the 'white flash of doom'? If not what are the options for killing this? If the user has to see anything before the new 'please-draw-me' event, we'd probably like to see the app's background

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 4:53 PM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: The need is not for an event, no? But rather for an API which allows the page to tell the browser that it's ready for initial rendering? Right. Which gets turned into an event that's sent to the browser. Rob -- lbir ye,ea

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Saturday, August 1, 2015 at 3:01:39 PM UTC-7, Jonas Sicking wrote: On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 12:30 PM, Zibi Braniecki wrote: 2) We want to bring app to foreground/paint it only when the app's chrome is visually complete. I would very much want this. Right now, during a navigation from

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

This is something I've been asking for for quite a while. We have this state with runtime localization where we have to do backflips in order to win the race with Gecko to firstPaint. I filed a bug for getting an API to prevent frame creation [0] and got a response that display: none should do

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 12:30 PM, Zibi Braniecki zbigniew.branie...@gmail.com wrote: 2) We want to bring app to foreground/paint it only when the app's chrome is visually complete. I would very much want this. Right now, during a navigation from page A to page B I believe that we render A until

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

It should be represented as a color layer which is very cheap. We should only composite it once. We will use a bit of memory bandwidth but nothing major, the main thread impact should be very small. I agree, we should really have some data to support that drawing something like a display:none is

Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

There are some forces at play in a web app that point to wanting to delay layout and rendering until a web app gives a signal that it should start: * ECMAScript modules, and even developer constructed JS module systems today, rely on async loading of scripts. * Custom elements need their JS

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

Can't you just make everything display:none until you're ready to show it? -Jeff On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 4:20 PM, James Burke jbu...@mozilla.com wrote: There are some forces at play in a web app that point to wanting to delay layout and rendering until a web app gives a signal that it should

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

I can't speak about the validity of the requirement, but in terms of API, we probably want something more compositional, if several codepaths need to stop rendering. And then, we end up with the possibility that someone forgets to enable rendering, with all the ensuing debugging joy. Since this

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 4:27 PM, James Burke jbu...@mozilla.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Jeff Muizelaar jmuizel...@mozilla.com wrote: Can't you just make everything display:none until you're ready to show it? Just using display: none seems like it will run into the same

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Jeff Muizelaar jmuizel...@mozilla.com wrote: Can't you just make everything display:none until you're ready to show it? Just using display: none seems like it will run into the same problem that prompted bug 863499, where the browser did some render/paints of a

Re: Allowing web apps to delay layout/rendering on startup

James Burke writes: On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Jeff Muizelaar jmuizel...@mozilla.com wrote: Can't you just make everything display:none until you're ready to show it? Just using display: none seems like it will run into the same problem that prompted bug 863499, where the browser did