When ALE is is used for selcal purposes, Part 97 allows this incidental
use of tones, at least in the voice/image portions of the bands. I have
not heard anyone comment negatively about that.
As I had brought up earlier, it is when ALE is begin used for
soundings or what is really beaconing.
I'm not sure soundings can be classified as beacons. The rule states
or other related experimental activities which indicates that
beacons have an experimental purpose, not one used for negotiating a
two way conversation. In other words, you can't have a two-way
conversation with a beacon.
The
AA6YQ comments below
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Andrew O'Brien
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
However, what is the REAL difference between sending your callsign a
few times via ALE , versus picking up the Mic and asking is this
frequency in use ?
There are two such differences:
I believe that your analysis of part 97 is correct.
73,
Dave, AA6YQ
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Rick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Andy has some very good points,
If you are a human operator and listen on the frequency for a
period of
time, ideally at least a few minutes if
A couple of minor comments:
97.3(a)(9)/ Beacon/. An amateur station transmitting communications for
the purposes of observation of propagation and reception or other
related experimental activities.
ALE as is normally used, is actually operated as a selective calling
and linking interface.
Leigh is referring to the fact that the founders of Purify went on to
create Netflix.
I don't think Reed and Neal used much of what they learned with Purify
to build Netflix, other than to make sure that it doesn't leak memory.
73,
Dave, AA6YQ
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com,
Nah, just the money, hihi.
On Thu, 7 Sep 2006 5:50 pm, Dave Bernstein wrote:
Leigh is referring to the fact that the founders of Purify went on to
create Netflix.
I don't think Reed and Neal used much of what they learned with Purify
to build Netflix, other than to make sure that it doesn't
: [digitalradio] Re: ALE QRM is minimal
Perhaps with a little FEC and the slower speed and a shorter frame,
Packet might have worked better on HF.
I remember reading that packet requires a rather high S/N ratio to work.
The only redeeming value is that it is an ARQ mode and it can run on a
sound
Hi Patrick,
Yes, I was afraid of the long frames. They would have to be modified.
And when you get done, it seems it would be better to use an existing
mode or new mode for an ARQ mode for sound card digital.
What do you think about all this talk about very high baud rate digital
sound card
is possible (as Pax) not a
synchronous ARQ mode (as Pactor), unfortunatly...
73
Patrick
- Original Message -
From: KV9U
To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: ALE QRM is minimal
Hi Patrick,
Yes, I
Perhaps with a little FEC and the slower speed and a shorter frame,
Packet might have worked better on HF.
I remember reading that packet requires a rather high S/N ratio to work.
The only redeeming value is that it is an ARQ mode and it can run on a
sound card such as with Patrick's Multipsk
Bob,
Didn't you do the software development for this modem to run under Linux back
in 1999 or so?
Whatever happened to it and how would something like this perform on say, 6
meters where I would expect you could use it?
If amateur radio did get permission to use high baud rate modems on HF
To be honest, using a high speed baud rate modem on HF and then encoding
it to
slow down the effective bps, seems the exact opposite of what is
normally done
with slower baud rate and higher order modulation to get the higher
throughput.
Rick,
The actual BPS rate for 188-110B is 7200,
Message-
From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 4:43 PM
To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: ALE QRM is minimal
Hi Rick,
ALE itself is 8FSK, 125 baud, all protocols on that modem.
After an ALE link, any
Can you explain how it is that you can run a symbol rate of 2400 (baud)
with 188-110A and it works very well running at this extremely high
speed for HF? And yet other modes, such as Packet, don't work very well
at 300 baud, and Walt has pointed out that government studies had show
that under
To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: ALE QRM is minimal
Can you explain how it is that you can run a symbol rate of 2400 (baud)
with 188-110A and it works very well running at this extremely high
speed for HF? And yet other modes, such as Packet, don't work very well
at 300 baud
The 2400 and 4800 baud is a composite baud rate for the mode/protocol NOT
the discrete baud rate of any individual component of the waveform.
Can you explain further? I saw that:
MIL-STD-188-110A serial tone modem is just that, a single PSK carrier
frequency that by the standard is locked
, N2CKH
-Original Message-
From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 4:43 PM
To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: ALE QRM is minimal
Hi Rick,
ALE itself is 8FSK, 125 baud, all protocols on that modem
Hi Mark,
The Mil-Std-188-110B serial (single-tone) mode use M-ary Phase-Shift
Keying (PSK) on a single carrier frequency (1800hz standard) as the
modulation technique for data transmission. The serial binary
information is converted into a single 8-ary PSK-modulated output
carrier where
Hi Mark,
I just seen this after sending you a reply...
You go the idea, you actually put it forth simpler than I did as gave
you too much detail, but yet just touched the tip of it ! I may have
to save your explanation below for a more simple reply in the future,
but I can never seem find
Hi Rick,
At 01:24 PM 9/1/2006, you wrote:
Can you explain how it is that you can run a symbol rate of 2400 (baud)
with 188-110A and it works very well running at this extremely high
speed for HF? And yet other modes, such as Packet, don't work very well
at 300 baud, and Walt has pointed out that
Hi Dave,
I really could not say for sure based on your criteria, depending on
what you mean as asked.
However using ALE and an appropriate Global Allcall or Anycall is
very powerful. If the propo is there for the given frequency at the
given time of the call, if there were 1,000 stations
Hi Dave,
Regarding the Sounding aspect of life, not all stations need to be
Sounding and not all stations need to be Sounding once per hour.
Sounding can be adjusted to accommodate the loading of a network. The
more stations that are ALE active on the same channel less frequent
you sound and
Mark,
I think I understood you to say earlier that the baud rate is based upon
the total waveform. I am having difficulty grasping what that really
means. I have spent a LOT of time researching this on the internet and
not really finding something that I can picture in my mind like I can
with
If I gave you some parameters of a waveform, what would you use to base
your measurement of baud rate?
I would look at the data, and see how it is modulated into an analog
waveform. For FSK we know that a 1 produces one symbol, and a 0 another
symbol. MFSK16 the symbols represent
0001
Mark,
When I visualize the MT-63 waveform, it seems like many little tones
turning off and on, but all running at a very low baud rate. Thus the
low baud rate for the mode even though it is a huge width of spectrum.
All these years we were told that low baud rates worked better under
poor
individual component of the waveform.
Walt/K5YFW
-Original Message-
From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 11:07 AM
To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: ALE QRM is minimal
Can you explain how it is that you
Rick KV9U wrote:
Even if only the slow tones you mention below at 125 baud
for an 8FSK signal were available as an ARQ mode, I think
that we would have a sea change in sound card modes.
Hi Rick,
We are currently using the soundcard ARQ with 8FSK 125 baud in PCALE
for keyboarding and file
: [digitalradio] Re: ALE QRM is minimal
I'm not a lawyer either, Walt, but the 300 baud symbol rate
limitation from §97.305(c)(3) below applies to a RTTY or data
emission, not the individual components of that emission IMHO.
You and I have discussed this potential loophole in the past, and my
I'm not a lawyer either, Walt, but the 300 baud symbol rate
limitation from §97.305(c)(3) below applies to a RTTY or data
emission, not the individual components of that emission IMHO.
I am not a lawyer either, but since the Walsh FEC code is 64 bits, the
character rate is the same as the
The PC-ALE program gave my some difficult times at first with crashing.
I think I figured that out. At this time I don't see to be able to get
the program to interface with my ICOM 756 Pro 2 rig through the CI-V.
It may be possible for those who wish to install some kind of PTT
control running
AA6YQ comments below
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, DuBose Walt Civ AETC CONS/LGCA
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If I were Hollingsworth and you ask me for an official opinion I
would tell you that it applied to the mode.
So you already know the answer to the question. Everything else is
. Hooper is also know for her work on Flow-Matic business language, COBOL
and Ada.
Walt/K5YFW
-Original Message-
From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 2:06 PM
To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [digitalradio] Re: ALE QRM
Re Dr. Hopper is also know for her work on Flow-Matic business
language, COBOL and Ada.
I met Grace Hopper when we (Rational Software) validated the first
Ada compiler in the early 80s. She was inspirational...
73,
Dave, AA6YQ
Need a Digital mode QSO? Connect to
Hi Dave,
Speaking of Ada, I developed the MS-Windows AMDS (
https://peoiewswebinfo.monmouth.army.mil/portal_sites/IEWS_Public/rus//AMDS.htm
) for the I-REMBASS Battlefield Sensor System in Ada for the U.S.
Army due to requirements (Ada is a very good large embedded systems
language, it is
Hi Dave,
That aspect of PC-ALE in being updated. For a number of years the
core users of PC-ALE mostly used a common set of HF SSB transceivers
that were well to ALE Scanning use where the PA BPF relays were not
an issue or could be bypassed via command and external PTT was mostly
used and a
C++ was a huge step backward from Ada, IMHO. There'd have been no
need for Purify if everyone programmed in Ada instead of C and C++.
How many billions of dollars have been lost just to = vs ==, much
less to memory leaks.
Pascal was a teaching language never intended for industrial use.
Both
That's a good view point...I never thought of it that way...you are opening my
eyes.
Thanks,
Walt/K5YFW
-Original Message-
From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 4:02 PM
To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [digitalradio] Re
Hi Rick,
At 01:53 PM 8/31/2006, you wrote:
The PC-ALE program gave my some difficult times at first with crashing.
I think I figured that out. At this time I don't see to be able to get
the program to interface with my ICOM 756 Pro 2 rig through the CI-V.
For that model with the current PC-ALE
Hi Rick,
ALE itself is 8FSK, 125 baud, all protocols on that modem.
After an ALE link, any protocol, be it an ALE 8FSK or other can be
utilized via other modems. Built into PC-ALE/MARS-ALE is a
MIL-STD-188-110 modem, MARS-ALE also actively supports external
TNC/Modems. PC-ALE passive
Hi Dave,
I put in a number of years of DoD IVV and I agree 100% that Ada was
a huge benefit over all the languages, many of them unique to a
particular CPU or embedded platform. I can't begin to tell you how
many languages that I was forced to use in DoD related projects
before Ada came
Thanks for your hard work on all this stuff, Steve.
When I have used the PC-ALE program and selected Generic Icom nothing
ever happens. So I am not doing something correctly.
As of a couple of hours ago, I received my new used Ten Tec Argonaut V
which I may try interfacing and see if I have
@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: ALE QRM is minimal
GA Rick, Patrick:
The stuff from MIL-STD-188-141B that relates the MIL-STD-118-110x
modem and Data Link Protocols (DLP) via other standards (e.g.
FS-1052 DLP, S5066 DLP etc.) is all high speed serial tone and as
specified
@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: ALE QRM is minimal
GA Rick, Patrick:
The stuff from MIL-STD-188-141B that relates the MIL-STD-118-110x
modem and Data Link Protocols (DLP) via other standards (e.g.
FS-1052 DLP, S5066 DLP etc.) is all high speed serial tone and as
specified, not legal
.
And, don't let MARS interpretation of Part 97 cloud you view of it.
73,
Walt/K5YFW
-Original Message-
From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 2:06 PM
To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [digitalradio] Re: ALE QRM is minimal
Hi
that symbol rate, its to high, it exceeds the 300 symbol/sec limit
per FCC Part 97.
Why would the symbol rate be an issue in the regulations? Why would
anything like that matter if the data is constrained by bandwidth? Or is
the basis of the our rules are holding you back statements by the
I'm not a lawyer either, Walt, but the 300 baud symbol rate
limitation from §97.305(c)(3) below applies to a RTTY or data
emission, not the individual components of that emission IMHO.
You and I have discussed this potential loophole in the past, and my
advice was to run it up the flagpole
Steve,
Ideally, it would be something you would want to share as a
collaborative effort. Without this type of effort on the part of a few
hams (Patrick being one, along with Dave's DX Lab software), we would
not have the incredible synergy that these two programs bring to nearly
any amateur
John VE5MU wrote:
For general Ham use , for example on 20M, if ALE becomes
popular, then the collisions on the sounding channel will
be such that very few will get through.
Hi John,
Fortunately, that's not the way it works with ALE, John. There is
plenty of room for thousands of ALE
AA6YQ comments below
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, expeditionradio
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Fortunately, that's not the way it works with ALE, John. There is
plenty of room for thousands of ALE operators around the world on
the few ALE HF channels we presently use now. Signals are
OK Steve,
I got the impression that the various modes mentioned below were a part
of STANAG 5066 and did not realize that there is a separate DLP part of
STANAG 5066. The jargon gets to be a bit much, but very common for
military type descriptors.
For some reason, the data transfer part of
: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: ALE QRM is minimal
OK Steve,
I got the impression that the various modes mentioned below were a part
of STANAG 5066 and did not realize that there is a separate DLP part of
STANAG 5066. The jargon gets to be a bit
The documentation in http://hflink.com/ recommends that a station
transmit a 20-30 second sounding hourly on each frequency.
Below, Bonnie says In amateur radio ALE, there is only one pilot
channel per ham band where repetitive sounding (station ID) happens
on a regular basis.
How many
Hi Dave,
At 10:53 PM 8/27/2006, you wrote:
Does ALE provide some means of reducing contention?
I recommend that to answer all of your technical questions on subject
ALE that you refer the actual Federal, Military and STANAG Standards
which you can find on the Internet quite easily. You can
Several key points on Bonnie's comments:
1) RTTY contests are human operating events. There is no automatic RTTY
that I am aware of. Big difference! It is one thing to find an apparent
hole to TX into, but are able to back off if it is busy. ALE would
be nearly inoperative during a contest if
Steve, I asked a few simple questions about the amateur
implementation of ALE; these questions were not focused on
politeness, but rather on understanding how many ALE users can be
simultaneously QRV if there's one pilot channel per amateur band.
Bonnie claimed 1000, but two multiplications
One of the main interests that I have in digital modes is getting a
message through the most difficult conditions, completely intact as
sent, and as fast as possible. I was looking at the STANAG 5066
specifications and test results, (Steve has some below), and quite
frankly I am concerned that
Hi Dave,
At 10:46 AM 8/28/2006, you wrote:
I have reviewed enough of the military documentation to understand
that they employ dedicated ALE transceivers capable of much faster
scanning rates.
Really? Please enlighten me, I was under the impression that the ALE
scan rates of 1, 2 and 5
Hello Bonnie - what is ALE please? - 73 Bruce.
72/73 - Bruce ve5rc/ve5qrp - QRP-C#1, QRP-L#886, A1 Operator
Enter QRP-Canada's RUN with RAC contest -
details - http://www.qrp-canada.com
Need a Digital mode QSO? Connect to Telnet://cluster.dynalias.org
Hi Rick,
Just time for a quick comment.
Don't confuse STANAG 5066 Data Link Protocol (DLP) as covered in
MIL-STD-188-141B which is a Data Link Protocol at the Physical Layer
with STANAG 5066 which is a network protocol at the Link Layer.
Basically and DLP with the need ARQ support and speed
AA6YQ comments below
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Steve Hajducek [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
snip
I have reviewed enough of the military documentation to understand
that they employ dedicated ALE transceivers capable of much faster
scanning rates.
Really? Please enlighten me, I was
John VE5MU wrote:
If we have 1000 Ale stations sounding 24/7, how much QRM
will this create?
Hi John,
It would be far less QRM than the average RTTY contest, such as we had
this weekend that took over a large chunk of the ham bands with
soundings.
In fact, it is unlikely that you would
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