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> prohibited.
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> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject
tion. If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any
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> >
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> >
> > From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com]
&
> prohibited.
>
>
>
> From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 6:30 AM
> To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
>
>
>
> I think
it's all physics
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Paul Dove via EV wrote:
> A battery is chemical not electrical
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jun 24, 2015, at 9:31 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
> >
> > Roger Stockton via EV wrote:
> >> I think that it is possible that people are confusing *the
A battery is chemical not electrical
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 24, 2015, at 9:31 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
>
> Roger Stockton via EV wrote:
>> I think that it is possible that people are confusing *theoretical* cell
>> chemistry with that of *practical* cells.
>
> I think that is exactly t
Roger Stockton via EV wrote:
I think that it is possible that people are confusing *theoretical* cell
chemistry with that of *practical* cells.
I think that is exactly the case.
In theory, theory and practice are the same.
In practice, they are not. -- Albert Einstein
Of cours
Why would you stop it? This is certainly not like the H2 fuel discussions -
not currently related to EVs. I liked those too from a philosophical POV
This is a semi technical list - I don't get why a difference of opinions
cannot involve a long running topic.
I delete emails all the time that I do
I am not talking about LFP, I have no literature that is current about
LFP. I have been talking more generally about LiMO2. All I have seen is
contradictory, anecdotal info on LFP. Jack Richard doesn't think they have
spontaneous loss of charge - and onl;y a small loss of SOC from sitting -
1% a
Folks, I hate to say it, but maybe it's time to tie a knot in this thread.
Plenty of good information has come to light, but I don't see any of the
major players budging an inch.
If you really think it's worth arguing more about this, by all means carry
on -- but please do it via private (off
Michael Ross wrote:
> It is like a bunch of people simply don't want to understand that things
> are not uniform across the field, that there is old tech that is being
> surpassed, and that some things are turning out very well.
>
> I would restate, " I think it is possible that people don't reco
"I think that it is possible that people are confusing *theoretical* cell
chemistry with that of *practical* cells. "
It is like a bunch of people simply don't want to understand that things
are not uniform across the field, that there is old tech that is being
surpassed, and that some things are
Michael Ross wrote:
> Cells, when designed well, don't offer a ready path for any electrons that
> aren't controlled by external circuitry. This how cells for medical
> implants can last for 10 or more years.
I rather suspect that cells for medical implants are *primary* (i.e.
non-rechargable)
HI John,
I would like to see where you got that idea from. I like reading original
material. "Other ion paths" is not clear to me.
My understanding is different.
Batteries store chemical potential energy. There is no electric field as
far as I know when you create a stable "new chemical" - in
; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 3:34 PM
> Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"
>
> So, let me try to paraphrase this. Are you saying that
> - the electrolyte can only conduct ions,
> - with an open circuit (nothing co
ssion List
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 3:34 PM
Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"
So, let me try to paraphrase this. Are you saying that
- the electrolyte can only conduct ions,
- with an open circuit (nothing connected to the terminals), no
electrons can move from one si
: "paul dove via EV"
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
Sent: 23-Jun-15 1:21:20 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"
Oh, yea, sorry I don't know why I was thinking magneticfield.
At any rate the rest of what I said is accurate I believe.There is
Oh, yea, sorry I don't know why I was thinking magneticfield.
At any rate the rest of what I said is accurate I believe.There is no electric
field in a battery. A battery is a chemical reactor. The reaction is called
red-ox reactions. In the battery is electrolyte which can conduct ions but not
Hi Paul and All,
From: Paul Dove via EV
To: Lee Hart ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"
There is not an electric field inside a battery.
---Really? There certainly is potenti
015 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"
Well, I am no physicist Jerry but it seems that they would attract on another
if there was a magnetic field inside. Here is an except from a physics
professor.
A good electrolyte has several interesting properties; for one thing
Discussion List ; Electric Vehicle
Discussion List
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 7:18 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"
Hi Paul and All,
From: Paul Dove via EV
To: Lee Hart ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 8:04 AM
S
There is not an electric field inside a battery. The electrolyte cause the
field to be in equilibrium otherwise it would immediately discharge. The field
is present when the terminals are connected and that is why you get ion
movement.
Sent from my iPad
> On Jun 22, 2015, at 10:33 PM, Lee Har
Michael Ross via EV wrote:
I am comparing to the lead acid chemistry where the charged state has a
competing lower thermodynamic state, so a charge lead acid cell always runs
down even in the absence of any short circuit or load. One of the neat
things about Li ion cells that this condition does
"I’m not sure what you mean by this."
I am comparing to the lead acid chemistry where the charged state has a
competing lower thermodynamic state, so a charge lead acid cell always runs
down even in the absence of any short circuit or load. One of the neat
things about Li ion cells that this cond
/“A lithium cell has no thermodynamic forcing function to move the ions back
to the positive electrode. Stating this in the terms above - neither of the
discharged or charge states are more stable than the other.”/
I’m not sure what you mean by this.
Jay Whitacre (Materials Science, Carnegie Mel
on of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received
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> > -Original Message-
> &
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> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle
ation of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this
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> From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael
sender. Any unauthorized
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From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 6:30 AM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-dischar
cluding any attachments) contains confidential and
>>> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received
>>> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via
EV
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-dischar
I think this is going to come down to semantics and word definition.
I bet Popov never looks into self discharge because it is a basic non
existent occurrence in lithium ion batteries. Which is what Paul Dove and I
have been saying. I saw in the paper linked by Cor that he used self
discharge ref
; > -Original Message-
> > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson
> via EV
> > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> > To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: B
prohibited.
From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 8:06 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
Cor,
There is no author, no date, no publisher, no prior
unauthorized
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> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> To: Bill Dube; El
EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via
> EV
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
>
> Bill,
>
> I have dug through many s
vdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via
> EV
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
>
> Bill,
>
> I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batte
List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
Bill,
I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they work and
I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical self-discharge
mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking abou
e, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is
> prohibited.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subjec
to:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
Bill,
I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they work and
Bill,
I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they
work and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical
self-discharge mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about
the lack of a charge shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries,
however.
One pape
Then explain how this happens in a Li-Ion battery. What is the self discharge
mechanism?
Give me the science!
Sent from my iPad
> On Jun 19, 2015, at 1:46 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>
> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the
> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know wh
This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the
"anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree. Also,
the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a
BMS. These are well-
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