rude and not once even pretended to focus on the real questions.
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On Jun 4, 2008, at 8:22 PM, Jo Rhett wrote:
If you're asking why I don't turn a production environment over to
being a freebsd-unstable-testbed, I can't really answer that
question in a way you'd understand (if you were asking that question)
On Jun 6, 2008, at 9:11 AM, V
) of my paid $EMPLOYER's time working on
freebsd things, and countless hours of unpaid time. I don't know that
I can do any more than this.
--
Jo Rhett
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__
large corporation, this statement is outright
wrong. I can still get security patches for Solaris 2.8 which shipped
almost 6 years ago now.
Again, I'm not saying that 6 years is reasonable for FreeBSD - just
pointing out that the statement is invalid.
--
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Net Consonance : consonant
le to help.
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versions prevent this kind of insanity.
I'm struggling to find a phrase here that can't be taken to be an
insult, so forgive me and try to understand when I say that you really
should try watching the cvs tree for a bit before making a nonsense
comment like that.
--
Jo Rhett
N
ght, it's time to stop dealing with FreeBSD. The
product is quality, but the abuse one has to sustain to ask a question
on the mailing list isn't worth it.
--
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_
while we do
it, or we'll also be lectured about our manners?
I find it sad that again you find it more interesting to be insulting
that to respond in a helpful manner to the questions raised.
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u for free.
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ase. Forcing everyone to upgrade to a unstable release doesn't
seem likely to help improve the situation.
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freebsd-stable
oing to decide what my choices were for helping out and improving the
situation in some form. Without the "why" I haven't the foggiest idea
how to help. (for already well known bugs which don't need my time/
effort/attention)
--
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Net Consonance
On Jun 9, 2008, at 4:25 PM, Joe Kelsey wrote:
Jo Rhett has clearly stated (in offline reply) that they do not
participate in the -BETA and-RC cycles leading up to -RELEASE, so
they therefore do not have any issues with -RELEASE and EoL to raise.
Actually, they still have the same complaints
mind boggles to imagine the manpower cost of doing
so. (and to justify the manpower cost versus the gain from doing so...)
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ks for the
clarification ;-)
We don't upgrade machines that have been deployed unless there is a
good reason to.
Do you deploy machines for longer than 1 year? How do you deal with
security patches in the longer term?
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthro
to.
This makes sense. But for personal curiosity sake, what if Yahoo
needed to stick with supported FreeBSD releases? How would you deal
with updating that many machines every 12 months?
Would that be possible in your business?
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Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanth
arted with this serial console issue... which is
indeed a
pain :(
TIA,
Marian
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ervers and I
haven't
checked into using the virtual serial on the Blades we have.
On Tue, Jul 01, 2008 at 09:42:16PM -0700, Jo Rhett wrote:
This rhymes with sio deciding that your TTY is something other than
ttyd0. We had this same problem on Rackable -- even though the
proper
tty was
which is what makes it the console.
NOTE: I think this whole parade sucks, and the kernel should believe
device.hints ... but there is no apparent interest in solving this
problem (even when a bounty is offered), and I don't do enough device
driver development these days for it to be worth
this never happened before the p11 patch to 6.2. I don't know
if that is related or not.
Obviously, I can't upgrade to 6.3 if heavy cpu/disk activity kills the
system.
No, I don't have any other insights. I'm not prone to posting "duh
help me please!&quo
t...
Ugh. I guess this option doesn't appeal very much. Are there any
other options available?
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ystem remains pingable, answers TCP connections,
etc etcc but doesn't respond. No TCP negotiation, no response on
the console, etc. It's higher level activity which isn't working...
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by ne
On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 12:59:33AM -0700, Jo Rhett wrote:
Every time it is rebuilding ad0. Every single boot in the last two
weeks.
On Jul 11, 2008, at 9:49 AM, Clifton Royston wrote:
That just means that it halted without a proper shutdown. If it
crashes, the mirror isn't st
PM, Peter Wemm wrote:
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:42 PM, Jo Rhett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 12:59:33AM -0700, Jo Rhett wrote:
Every time it is rebuilding ad0. Every single boot in the last
two
weeks.
On Jul 11, 2008, at 9:49 AM, Clifton Royston wrote:
Tha
Ken Smith
- From there to here, from here to | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
there, funny things are everywhere. |
- Theodore Geisel |
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by ne
ould be futile.
To go back to the original statements made at the time: "you should
consider the lifetime of the release before you invest resources in
it". That means we need to know the lifetime to determine how much
resources to apply to testing it, yes?
--
Jo Rhett
Net Con
. Who can convince their company to put
resources into the mainstream release effort, when this kind of cycle
basically forces every company to run their own internal release
process.
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanth
My point to you is that if this wasn't being forced upon every
company that uses FreeBSD, those companies could commit more resources
to help the core (main branch, whatever - not "Core") freebsd
development.
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant end
o
provide that support internally.
If we had known (and longer than 12 month) maintenance periods for a
given release, then I could avoid maintaining this infrastructure
internally and would have somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 hours a
month I could dedicate to testing and bug fixes of Fr
be happier focusing their effort on the mainstream release.
A bunch of us made proposals to our $EMPLOYERs to make this happen,
but there was no apparent interest from the release team so the effort
was abandoned.
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open sour
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Jo Rhett wrote:
Robert, I'd like to point out to you that when I complained about
6.2's accelerated EoL, I was soundly boxed around the ears and told
that I should have been paying attention to the projected EoL date
when we decided to roll out 6.2 across th
How do you need it, to make a real
change?
Please stop avoiding even considering what people are offering to you.
--
Jo Rhett
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___
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expressing amusement about watching every developer
dance around the topic, skipping over the relevant part -- how do we
improve things?
We could improve things. We could get more resources. Why not
consider the topic?
That's not demanding. Check your dictionary.
--
Jo Rhet
oid considering.
Maybe, just maybe, there is some reason why FreeBSD doesn't want more
people helping. Or ... something. I haven't the vaguest clue. If
there is some reason why getting paid people to work on testing and
release cycle is a bad idea, would someone please stan
If something is answered
clearly I tend to address topics which aren't resolved. But the
section you quoted is your worst example -- If you look at my reply,
you'll notice that not only did I not ignore it, I replied to that
section with concerns about fluctuating schedules that this doc
the symptoms,
but to analyze and solve the parent problems that may not be so
obvious.
I suspect this above statement applies to every problem the release
and testing teams have. What is necessary to get consensus to even
discuss the issues involved?
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant en
o again. You have given several options, not a
single one of which will provide more resources to the release team.
The only thing you've successfully done is given me three different
ways to eff off and leave you alone. Apparently, more resources is
not in your interest.
On Thu, 18 Sep 2008, Jo Rhett wrote:
And my e-mails have always discussed ways to get more resources.
Recently we even had a group of people trying to arrange for more
explicit corporate support for testing and release process. For
some reason unclear to me, not a single developer has
ime. The others contribute at random, but I don't see that changing
much due to their existing commitments.
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source
and other randomness
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rt it.
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On Sep 18, 2008, at 1:20 PM, Lowell Gilbert wrote:
I've kind of lost the drift, but it sounds to me as though Jo Rhett is
tentatively offering to take on extended support for 6.2, but not
earlier versions. Aside from programming skills, what would Jo need
to bring to the table in ord
imes if you google for them)
I'd rather just drop this tangent.
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KC5MLE Unix
SysAdmin
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good practice ;-) It's
unlikely to slow me down one bit.
^^^ you may know more about the resource limitations and why commit
bits are necessary to relieve your resource strain. In that
situation, please educate me. Or everyone. In particular,
led out, you sit down and
try to determine what resources are necessary to achieve a certain
goal. Then you find those resources, etc etc...
Without input from the current release team extending the support
schedule is not possible.
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by net
with
an effort that tried to provide more support.
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On Sep 19, 2008, at 9:41 PM, Gary Palmer wrote:
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 07:38:32PM -0700, Jo Rhett wrote:
Without input from the current release team extending the support
schedule is not possible.
Inquiry - is release team the constraint?
I don't know. I asked why not, and was tol
pany chatted with us about it, and everyone decided it was
easier to have me do the integration work for them as opposed to
paying them more. (other companies we paid for them to do the work,
etc)
This is how things work. You ask a question, somebody answers the
question and you sit and chat
abs? Server hosting? Twinkies?
Exactly. Thank you for phrasing it so very well.
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thus $EMPLOYER gains
no value in the effort.
FWIW, this is why I'm in favor of consistent support periods. When
you align the business benefit with the community benefit, you can get
the business to help improve the community product.
(remainder snipped to a different subject lin
the general public (who read security-
related mailing lists, anyway)
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for 24
months *unless* we find it necessary to release 6.5 then I'd be
totally happy. But that's not what is being said.
--
Jo Rhett
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___
ecide that they
don't have the resources to support 3 major revisions, it's a pretty
good reason to think that FreeBSD can't either ;-)
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source
and other randomness
even split.
Acknowledged, sorry I was working from memory and forgot that the
things we had to patch for already went through a "does it affect us"
filter :-( You're right.
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open sour
stems ;-)
That being said, I was working on Debian when they went through the
Woody/Sarge era, and frankly I think that distinct production/
development tracks work even less well so it's not like I have useful
advice here ;-)
--
Jo Rhett
Net Conson
longer than 6.4?
(not trying to be accusative or demanding, it's just a fairly odd
situation)
--
Jo Rhett
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http
g the chicken
and egg for FreeBSD, it's being created by the existing policy.
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guideline that a
business can understand. It's also always incrementally forward, and
doesn't reward a business for staying behind on a previous release -
like your existing policy is doing right now.
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, ope
actually promoting the idea of skipping releases. This may not be a
good idea -- it was just a toss out there, but it makes a lot more
sense than the existing policy. Could you at least respond to the
issues raised here?
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philant
act" for support
periods could in fact be implemented with a reasonable policy that
doesn't require a psychic to determine the likely failure or not of a
release. I've proposed one. I'm sure that there are better ways to
say it, but I'd really appreciate it if yo
g anything. I think this
policy would make a lot more sense, and would promote forward
movement. Feel free to correct me if we overlooked anything. Thanks.
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source
and other randomness
___
s required to support a release after it
is EOL'd
in a much more direct fashion than an e-mail thread.
--
John Baldwin
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source
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___
freebsd-stable
On Sep 23, 2008, at 4:45 PM, Colin Percival wrote:
jonathan michaels wrote:
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 01:37:03PM -0700, Jo Rhett wrote:
Some quite lively offline discussion has come to conclusion with
the following suggestions to change the support policy.
Obviously, this is what we feel
On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 13:37 -0700, Jo Rhett wrote:
Normal
Releases which are published from a -STABLE branch will be
supported by the Security Officer for a minimum of 12 months after
the
release.
A release which is not the final minor release of a branch will
be additionally
4 months if there is no followup
release.
This effectively solves both of the problems you've very accurately
named above.
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source
and other randomness
___
freebsd-stable@fr
Hi, Colin. Any news/thoughts on where we are with this?
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igate on Friday. Anything specific that
would be more or less useful to debug in particular?
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http://li
x27;t type
fast enough. Also noteworthy, I can't hit "6" to set console to
comconsole so that I could cut/paste this. It really seems like there
are major problems around the keyboard. (and no such problems with 6.3)
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by net
available memory
FreeBSD/i386 bootstrap loader, Revision 1.1
([EMAIL PROTECTED]
Plugging back in the monitor after lockup showed only a single char
more:
([EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Oct 24, 2008, at 11:41 AM, Jo Rhett wrote:
On Oct 23, 2008, at 1:08 PM, John Baldwin wrote:
Has anyone filed a PR on this
John, is this perhaps the problem seen with 7.0, discussed here?
http://unix.derkeiler.com/Mailing-Lists/FreeBSD/stable/2008-05/msg00437.html
On Oct 24, 2008, at 11:41 AM, Jo Rhett wrote:
On Oct 23, 2008, at 1:08 PM, John Baldwin wrote:
Has anyone filed a PR on this problem, or
rap number = 12
panic: page fault
cpuid = 0
Uptime: 1s
Automatic reboot in 15 seconds - press a key on the console to abort
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source
and other randomness
___
freebsd-stable@f
On Oct 24, 2008, at 6:21 PM, Jeremy Chadwick wrote:
| By Jo Rhett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| [ 2008-10-24 21:13 +0200 ]
On Oct 22, 2008, at 9:27 PM, Milan Obuch wrote:
I did not investigate on this issue too much, but there is an
workaround -
copy
-RELEASE builds in about a week and a
half. We encourage you to test out 6.4-RC2 and report any problems by
submitting PRs or via email to the freebsd-stable list.
I would love to, but it's still not available on the download area.
Er, i386 isn't anyway.
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance :
On Oct 27, 2008, at 8:51 AM, John Baldwin wrote:
On Friday 24 October 2008 02:48:13 pm Jo Rhett wrote:
So I booted up by CD and used Fixit mode to switch the system to boot
via serial (keyboard detached), but this gathered me even less.
/boot.config: -Dh
Consoles: internal video/keyboard
On Nov 5, 2008, at 3:29 PM, Jo Rhett wrote:
On Nov 3, 2008, at 8:57 AM, Ken Smith wrote:
The second Release Candidate for FreeBSD 6.4 is now available.
FreeBSD
6.4-RC2 should be the last of the public test builds for the
FreeBSD 6.4
release cycle. Unless a big show-stopper is found from
configuration for that if you want.
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f the code. Use the binary
version of tw_cli that matches the firmware on your controller.
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Jo Rhett wrote:
The driver logs all useful stuff, and the SEC logfile surfer does a
good job of notifying you quickly. I can send you an SEC
configuration for that if you want.
On Nov 16, 2008, at 10:06 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote:
Hm - what is SEC?
Simple Event Correlator
http
turn the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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John, I can ship you one of these machines for your own testing if you
like. Or send me a public key and I can give you SSH access to the
console serial port, whichever would be easiest for you to get what
you need.
Let me know how I can help.
On Nov 5, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Jo Rhett wrote
As per my previous message, I've spent about 3 months trying to debug
a problem that was causing all disk I/O to go very slowly.
One of the things which made this nearly impossible to diagnose was
the absolute lack of priority given to the console. Logging in on the
console would take 12-1
I've spent about 3 months tracing down what was causing my personal
colo box to start getting "sluggish" right around dawn every Saturday
morning. It took so long because some mornings I simply couldn't pull
my head out of my tail enough to do proper debugging.
The cause was *really slow*
This is now filed as PR 129149
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=129149
Given the nature of this bug, can I persuade someone to mark this as
blocking 6.4-RELEASE ?
On Nov 5, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Jo Rhett wrote:
On Oct 27, 2008, at 8:51 AM, John Baldwin wrote:
On Friday 24
: ACTIVE
Priority: 0
Flags: DIRTY
GenID: 0
SyncID: 1
ID: 3917165570
2. Name: ad1
Mediasize: 300069052416 (279G)
Sectorsize: 512
Mode: r1w1e1
State: ACTIVE
Priority: 0
Flags: DIRTY
GenID: 0
SyncID: 1
ID: 3874187635
On Nov 24, 2008, at 12:48 PM, Jo Rhett wrote
So boot from CD, go to LIVE filesystem, mount my root and copy only /
boot/kernel?
Are there any other modules I should copy, or settings I should change?
On Nov 24, 2008, at 1:51 PM, Xin LI wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Jo Rhett wrote:
This is now filed as PR 129149
ing has been done to even investigate the
reports, nevermind address them.
Congradulations. Good Job. If you aren't going to accept bug
reports, why exactly do you release testing candidates at all?
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open
tinfo/freebsd-stable
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stable releases.
It's really unfortunate that the release management is so willing to
ignore the evidence which leads to major releases with serious flaws,
and on top of that seems to take delight in marking the known flawed
releases as the long support releases. Brilliance. Just pl
ubt that positive change is going
to happen here.
Your request is accepted. I'm unsubscribing now.
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identified the relevant portions, I would have happily
tried backing out some of the changes on a per-component basis to
figure it out.
In short, tell me what you wanted/needed, and I would have done it ASAP.
It's apparently irrelevant now.
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by n
for any business to handle this ugprade. It totally understand
obsoleting 5.x now that 7.x is out. But 6.2 is barely a year old...
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source
and other randomness
___
freebsd
nsupported.
So we're staying unsupported until 6.3 stabilizes obviously. That
sucks.
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then observe the EoL get pushed.
I'm surprised that it failed to get pushed this time.
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and other randomness
___
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The 6.3 degression has been somewhat
surprising.
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never hung with 6.2.
Reboots only occurred to satisfy kernel security patches.
But with 6.3 there are many open bug reports about our exact hardware,
and I'd prefer to avoid swapping positions with you ;-0
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source
Jo Rhett wrote:
On Jun 4, 2008, at 11:39 AM, Kris Kennaway wrote:
Also, it's not like anyone should have been caught by surprise by
the 6.2 EoL; the expiry date has been advertised since the 6.2
release itself.
It has changed multiple times. I keep reviewing and finding 6.3
ly, I know the majority of you are happy rebooting your
systems 5x daily to run the latest. I'll do that with my home system,
no problem. But I can't do this in a production environment.
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by ne
On Jun 4, 2008, at 5:05 PM, Scott Long wrote:
Jo Rhett wrote:
On Jun 4, 2008, at 12:00 PM, Scott Long wrote:
Can you describe the bugs that are affecting you?
gmirror failures, 3ware raid driver timeouts, bge0 problems. All
three in production use on dozens of systems.
Give me specific
and 6.3 to break so many drivers?
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get better gas mileage than the EPA observes?
Neither do I ;-)
(yes, their testing methodology is flawed but it's a decent enough
benchmark to know if you want the vehicle or not)
--
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source
been
happy to build a test system and turn it over to the developer in
question. We do that fairly routinely.
And please stop with the loaded language. I'm not asking anyone to
work for me. I am suggesting that it is perhaps too early to EoL 6.2
because 6.3 isn't ready yet.
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