Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

I thought "woo woo" was simply the sound made by the Crazy Train. Perhaps I should seeking better evidence for the _true_ origin of the term. (* tongue firmly planted in cheek *) FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

ww.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=woo+woo > > Dean Gerber > > -- > *From:* Rich Murray > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > *Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2013 11:13 PM > > *Subject:

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

, 2013 11:13 PM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending Urban Dictionary: woot. woot  Share on twitter Share on facebook Share on more 4635 up, 1141 down Woot originated as a hacker term for root (or administrative) access to a

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Urban Dictionary: woot . woot Share on twitter Share on facebook Share on more *

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Compare Urban Dictionary: woot . -Arlo James Barnes FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailma

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

prescience: piles of random woo science: linear woo woo trains unity: fractal woos within woos = WOO ! Rich On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Arlo Barnes wrote: > Unfortunately I think I am coming into this a bit too late to read through > the whole thread and respond, but I would like to pre

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Unfortunately I think I am coming into this a bit too late to read through the whole thread and respond, but I would like to present a couple of related topics and see what people think. The first is in response to 'would I like people to burst my placebo/nocebo bubble?': the latest issue of Scien

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

[mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 10:58 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending Roger Critchlow wrote at 04/05/2013 08:23 AM: > And gi

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Glen - Steve Smith wrote at 04/05/2013 10:54 AM: 1. How do we define/recognize valid measures of evidence? 2. Is the current "exponential" growth in tech divergent or convergent? ... Well, the first thing to cover is that the definition won't necessarily be pre-statable. In order for it

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

: Friday, April 05, 2013 9:24 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending And given exponential growth in science, who knows first hand what the variance in accepted scientific evidence

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

st -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 9:12 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending Nicholas Tho

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Steve Smith wrote at 04/05/2013 10:54 AM: > 1. How do we define/recognize valid measures of evidence? > 2. Is the current "exponential" growth in tech divergent or convergent? > > 1. I have worked on several projects involving the formal management of > evidence and belief which makes me cy

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Steve Smith wrote: > Roger/Glen - > > Good stuff... I find both topics very compelling: > > >1. How do we define/recognize valid measures of evidence? > > In the case of the chemtrail faithful I can safely characterize their measure (singular) of evidence as:

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Roger/Glen - Good stuff... I find both topics very compelling: 1. How do we define/recognize valid measures of evidence? 2. Is the current "exponential" growth in tech divergent or convergent? 1. I have worked on several projects involving the formal management of evidence and belief which m

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Roger Critchlow wrote at 04/05/2013 08:23 AM: > And given exponential growth in science, who knows first hand what the > variance in accepted scientific evidence actually is? That's a great point. It may help me articulate my objection to the concept of "the singularity", the sense that technol

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

And given exponential growth in science, who knows first hand what the variance in accepted scientific evidence actually is? Any claims to know what science "is" and what scientists "do", for the purposes of distinguishing between science and non-science, are claims to a revealed truth, not someth

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

+1 On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 7:41 PM, Steve Smith wrote: > > Just one small teensy note of clarification: I usually only insult > people who disagree with me when they are/have been complete assholes about > it. Which fortunately narrows the field down a bit. > > -Doug > > I can testify to this,

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Nicholas Thompson wrote at 04/04/2013 10:03 PM: > Again, acting in my capacity as the Village Pragmatist, I would assert that > science is the only procedure capable of producing lasting consensus. The > other methods various forms of torture, mostly ... do not produce such > enduring results

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

lexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the > TED > Controversy is Sending > > Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/04/2013 04:45 PM: > > I was using "evidence" in the scientific sense, > > You say that as if everyone ag

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

[mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 6:12 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/04/2013 04:45 PM: > I was us

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Just one small teensy note of clarification: I usually only insult people who disagree with me when they are/have been complete assholes about it. Which fortunately narrows the field down a bit. -Doug I can testify to this, as I disagree with Doug often and he only insults me when he's bei

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

your certain kind of zeel would make for a great sith lord- Just need to figure out how get you intune with the force enough to get people to come attend at the new sith temple On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 6:27 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote: > Doug if I may observe that you and Howl(sp) seem to have a gr

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Doug if I may observe that you and Howl(sp) seem to have a great noes for asshoelery though in your case from what I can tell your ire for at least google and people not linux friendly goes up almost instantly. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 6:23 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote: > Just one small teensy note o

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

ke, >> touches you on the upper arm, points skyward and says, “Call me nuts, but >> ….” **** >> >> >> >> I guess, “You’re nuts!” >> >> >> >> N >> >> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Just one small teensy note of clarification: I usually only insult people who disagree with me when they are/have been complete assholes about it. Which fortunately narrows the field down a bit. -Doug On Apr 4, 2013 6:11 PM, "glen" wrote: > Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/04/2013 04:45 PM: > > I wa

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/04/2013 04:45 PM: > I was using "evidence" in the scientific sense, You say that as if everyone agrees on the scientific sense of the term, which of course they don't. Even reputable scientists disagree on what constitutes evidence. I know you're willing to insult an

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

far. >> >> >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas >> Roberts >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 3:39 PM >> >> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

in life. But I have been known to carry it too far. Nick *From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>] *On Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 3:39 PM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Gro

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Well, I suppose. I was using "evidence" in the scientific sense, rather than the political one, or the one which so many idiots prefer to use which could loosely defined as "I choose to believe, so there is plenty of evidence to support my belief." --Doug On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 5:37 PM, glen wr

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/04/2013 04:21 PM: > I personally find it disappointing that so many people are willing to adopt > a belief set with no evidence, based solely on what someone said was The > Truth. Yeah, but the real problem is equivocation around the word "evidence". -- =><= glen e. p

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

uglas > Roberts > *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 3:39 PM > > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that > the TED Controversy is Sending > > ** ** > > There are a surprising nu

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

m [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 3:39 PM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending There are a surprising number of

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

r. Nick From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 3:39 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending There are a surpris

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

, “You’re nuts!” > > ** ** > > N > > *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas > Roberts > *Sent:* Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:14 PM > > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > *Subject:* Re: [FRIA

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

nuts, but .." I guess, "You're nuts!" N From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:14 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and C

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Ron - I get your point, Doug. I had to suppress the desire to roll my eyes when once I met someone who looked up at the sky and spoke confidently of chemtrails. I generally feel the same way, and this is usually abutted with something about crop circles and maybe a reference to the grassy kno

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

All this contrasery over the sigh. I think sigh and sighing is a good thing it can lead to interesting conversations. :P On 4/4/13, Ron Newman wrote: > I get your point, Doug. I had to suppress the desire to roll my eyes when > once I met someone who looked up at the sky and spoke confidently of

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

There have also been scientific studies involving something called that "nocebo" effect, in which expectations of harm are self-fulfilling. I apologize that I can't at the moment find references to the following two examples. People who felt themselves sensitive or insensitive to cell phone radiat

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Roger Critchlow wrote at 04/04/2013 11:37 AM: > you often see what you look for. I'll raise you and assert that you _always_ see what you look for ... which takes me back to Kauffman's paper and his failure to cite Robert Rosen's treatment of anticipatory systems (aka final cause). Our expectati

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

I get your point, Doug. I had to suppress the desire to roll my eyes when once I met someone who looked up at the sky and spoke confidently of chemtrails. I'm reminded of something Joseph Campbell said - who looked as deeply into the beliefs of human beings across history as anyone. He said that

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

I've restricted my participation in this discussion because I started a new schedule of medications yesterday and I wasn't sure whence my enthusiasm came. That's sort of a transcebo effect, everything I take appears to have subtle side effects, but appearances can be deceiving, and you often see w

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Actually, I think there is active scientific research trying to understand the placebo effect, because the effect and its benefits have been well documented. As Feynman points out, better understanding could lead to improved placebo effect. Bruce On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Ron Newman wrote

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Ron Newman wrote at 04/04/2013 10:57 AM: > But you're missing the point.: *something* is working for them if they > believe it is, and is not for you or anyone who doesn't believe it is. The > question is how does it work? No, that's not good enough, because it too > easily leads back to prematu

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Well shoot, as long as we're talking about irrational belief sets, how about if we throw chemtrails into the mix. There is a not insignificant segment of the US population who fervently believe that "they" are poisoning us, on purpose. But only on those days that the jets leave con ... er ... chem

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

But you're missing the point.: *something* is working for them if they believe it is, and is not for you or anyone who doesn't believe it is. The question is how does it work? No, that's not good enough, because it too easily leads back to premature assumptions. The question is: how can placeb

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Barry MacKichan wrote at 04/04/2013 10:29 AM: > I've heard it is very effective, but only for a time until the > patient discovers it is a placebo. Call it the Lincoln effect ("You > can fool all of …."). A friend of mine announced that she's now getting acupuncture for her chronic back and neck p

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

If the placebo is double blind I've heard the percentage shoots up. But the fact remains that a mere thought, or belief, is affecting something. If science were untainted that would be the basis for massive investigation. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Barry MacKichan < barry.mackic...@mackic

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

I've heard it is very effective, but only for a time until the patient discovers it is a placebo. Call it the Lincoln effect ("You can fool all of …."). --Barry On Apr 4, 2013, at 11:14 AM, Ron Newman wrote: > There's no money in it (actually, there's a lot of money in it) but the > effects

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

I agree with Feynman. Sort of, with a caveat to follow after a short digression. What about the placebo effect, a standard reference for FDA approval of medications? There's no money in it (actually, there's a lot of money in it) but the effects - 30% efficacy I heard once - are impressive, wit

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Owen, I lost track of your question -- just used Google -- I like it! ... the natural resurgence of inner experience in a world religion that is capable, deep, complex, and subtle enough to evolve radically and swiftly to meet the remarkable, unavoidable opportunities of these decades: http://www

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Rich: you never got back to me on Taize .. are you aware of the movement? -- Owen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_re

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Feynman had a nice comment on this, Nick. He suggests that faith healers don't take their faith seriously. Retrieved from http://faculty.randolphcollege.edu/tmichalik/feynman.htm "There is an infinite amount of crazy stuff, which, put another way, is that the environment is actively, intensely un

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

So far in this thread I hear opinions mixed with some desire to examine evidence, but no discussion of the evidence itself. We are ourselves demonstrating one of the points made in the original blog post that spawned this thread - that it's about culture and assumptions, not science. I don't hav

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

A small personal comment on related matters: It's not uncommon to hear statements of the form "Science can never explain X". Solving for X, one of the common solutions is "consciousness", but there are other popular solutions to the equation. Step back about 500 years, and humans were not in a posi

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Roger/Glen - Dysrhetorica even better! Humpty-Dumpty-itis... more cynical perhaps. "I am who you think I think I am" also seems relevant. It is perhaps why the most stubborn of us in our own self-image seem to be the easiest to deal with (one way or the other). If we offer no doubt about

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

I like the two quotes: /What counts is not what sounds plausible, not what we would like to believe, not what one or two witnesses claim, but only what is supported by hard evidence rigorously and skeptically examined. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. /- Carl Sagan

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

You're right, dyslexia is a bad match. Probably should have called it dysrhetorica, failure to recognize the significance of your own arguments, as evidenced by your dismay when people tell you what they heard you say. Or maybe it should be humpty-dumpty-itis, as in the words mean just what I mea

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

Roger Critchlow wrote at 04/03/2013 11:04 AM: > I think it's a form of rhetorical dyslexia -- what one thinks one is > arguing is not the argument that others hear one making. I don't grok the map to dyslexia. But the disconnect between the thoughts of the sender and those of the receiver is quit

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu > > Phone: (505) 995-8715 Cell: (505) 670-9918 > > ** ** > > *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Nicholas > Thompson > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 03, 2013 10:49 AM > *To:* 'The Friday Morni

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

du> wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu Phone: (505) 995-8715 Cell: (505) 670-9918 From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 10:49 AM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending

[psi] N From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Rich Murray Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 12:41 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group; Rich Murray Subject: [FRIAM] Fwd: [New post] The Loud and Clear Message that the TED Controversy is Sending T