Hi all,
I guess everybody knows, and also agrees that the GNUstep website is looking
fairly dated, and that
finding contents in it, is somtetimes only possible with help of google.
the last few days I spent on thinking about the website, what it may need,
digging html5 and css3,
and came up with
Hey guys,
I realize this isn't a direct comment on the proposed redesign... The
current proposal is nice, but also you should have a look at how Riccardo
redid gap. http://gap.nongnu.org
GC
On Jan 1, 2014, at 5:04 PM, Doug Simons
>
wrote:
On Dec 31, 2013, at 5:09 AM, Markus Hitter wrote:
A
Hi Sebastian
El mar, 31-12-2013 a las 02:09 +0100, Sebastian Reitenbach escribió:
> Hi all,
>
> I guess everybody knows, and also agrees that the GNUstep website is looking
> fairly dated, and that
> finding contents in it, is somtetimes only possible with help of google.
> the last few days I s
Sebastian and whoever else is interested in this discussion,
I've been following the discussions over the last few weeks but I haven't
felt the need to chime in until now.
I looked at your example and read through most of your explanation (I must
admit, I didn't read it all). I like the general l
On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 04:17 CET, Stefan Bidi
wrote:
> Sebastian and whoever else is interested in this discussion,
> I've been following the discussions over the last few weeks but I haven't
> felt the need to chime in until now.
>
> I looked at your example and read through most of
On 31 Dec 2013, at 03:17, Stefan Bidi wrote:
> All this said, I think the first thing we must do first is define what is
> going to be included as "proper" GNUstep. What are we going to include of
> the "Documentation" menu? Obviously GNUstep-make, -base, -gui and -back are
> going to have
Am 31.12.2013 02:09, schrieb Sebastian Reitenbach:
> I guess everybody knows, and also agrees that the GNUstep website is
> looking fairly dated, and that finding contents in it, is somtetimes
> only possible with help of google. the last few days I spent on
> thinking about the website, what it m
Hi Guys,
the doc idea is fun, but I think we should avoid any mouseover and other
effects and make it as simple and clean as possible.
It should also work on small touch screens.
If you do not have an iphone, you can get Xcode for the mac and try it in the
simulator.
Otherwise try the browser i
Hi David,
I totally agree, between Xmas, New Year and "bugs" I had to time for
website coding. If you check what I started on gap.nongnu.org, it has
only menus which I want to eliminate too and it works on iPhone (except
for the menus).
I had no time to follow and to reply all the threads s
On Dec 31, 2013, at 5:09 AM, Markus Hitter wrote:
> Am 31.12.2013 02:09, schrieb Sebastian Reitenbach:
>
>> https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html
>
> First, big compliments for the Dock implementation. It works flawlessly
> in a mouse/trackpad driven environment.
>
> Hovever, menus at t
I like it! Except for the colors and the font. Colors are consistent to our
current look, but maybe the website can encourage a different, brighter
color scheme? This is especially painful in the newsbox (black on very
dark-grey) and to an extent in the menu.
Also, do we need two logos in the head
I don't like the use of the old gorm icon.
On Monday, December 30, 2013, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I guess everybody knows, and also agrees that the GNUstep website is
> looking fairly dated, and that
> finding contents in it, is somtetimes only possible with help of google.
> the
Hi,
On Thursday, January 2, 2014 04:05 CET, Gregory Casamento
wrote:
> I don't like the use of the old gorm icon.
So I now can assume that you like everything else besides that icon?
cheers,
Sebastian
>
> On Monday, December 30, 2013, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I
Hi,
On Thursday, January 2, 2014 04:04 CET, Gregory Casamento
wrote:
> Hey guys,
>
> I realize this isn't a direct comment on the proposed redesign... The
> current proposal is nice, but also you should have a look at how Riccardo
> redid gap. http://gap.nongnu.org
I've seen it already s
On Wednesday, January 1, 2014 19:18 CET, Riccardo Mottola wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> I totally agree, between Xmas, New Year and "bugs" I had to time for
> website coding. If you check what I started on gap.nongnu.org, it has
> only menus which I want to eliminate too and it works on iPhone (e
Sebastian,
No, that's not the only thing I don't like.
Here's the list of things that I'm thinking so far...
1) The proposed design resembles one from years ago...
http://web.archive.org/web/20031225092930/http://gnustep.org/ Not EXACTLY
the same, but it puts me in mind of it for some reason t
Sebastian,
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 5:11 AM, Sebastian Reitenbach <
sebas...@l00-bugdead-prods.de> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, January 1, 2014 19:18 CET, Riccardo Mottola
> wrote:
>
> > Hi David,
> >
> > I totally agree, between Xmas, New Year and "bugs" I had to time for
> > website coding. If you c
Whatever design we end up, I think now it's right time to propose we
implement it using some web-editable CMS.
>From my experience with it, Wordpress would probably suit us well and would
allow a trusted set of people to edit the website. (And being able to
contribute a stream of news and articles
I'm all for this idea.
GC
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 3:28 PM, Ivan Vučica wrote:
> Whatever design we end up, I think now it's right time to propose we
> implement it using some web-editable CMS.
>
> From my experience with it, Wordpress would probably suit us well and
> would allow a trusted se
On 2 Jan 2014, at 20:27, Gregory Casamento wrote:
> I disagree with Riccardo here in the sense that the current look is not
> "proven" at all. What needs to happen is a radical redesign of the site and
> an entirely new way of presenting the information on it.
I agree with this ... current
Am 02.01.2014 22:05, schrieb Richard Frith-Macdonald:
>
> On 2 Jan 2014, at 20:27, Gregory Casamento
> wrote:
>
>> I disagree with Riccardo here in the sense that the current look
>> is not "proven" at all. What needs to happen is a radical
>> redesign of the site and an entirely new way of pr
Am 01.01.2014 um 19:18 schrieb Riccardo Mottola:
> Hi David,
>
> I totally agree, between Xmas, New Year and "bugs" I had to time for website
> coding. If you check what I started on gap.nongnu.org,
This one looks nice! A clean, modern layout without distraction. Just a little
idea. Maybe th
Am 31.12.2013 um 02:09 schrieb Sebastian Reitenbach:
> Hi all,
>
> I guess everybody knows, and also agrees that the GNUstep website is looking
> fairly dated, and that
> finding contents in it, is somtetimes only possible with help of google.
> the last few days I spent on thinking about the w
In your opinion, how many people would have to make noise so that it would no
longer be considered as emanating from a minority? And through what outlet
should they voice themselves -- would it be by subscribing to and posting to
this mailing list (and then unsubscribing)?
If you wanted to ga
On 3 Jan 2014, at 01:55, Patryk Laurent wrote:
>
> In your opinion, how many people would have to make noise so that it would no
> longer be considered as emanating from a minority?
I think you are taking my comment more literally than intended (in that spirit,
a minority is anything under
Hi,
Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
On 31 Dec 2013, at 03:17, Stefan Bidi wrote:
I would say that 'proper' gnustep is what we used to refer to as 'core'
(make/base/gui/back) plus Gorm (the one 'properly' supported tool nearly
essential for gui development).
There are then four things which
Hi,
Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf wrote:
While nicely and cleanly done, the proposal reminds me somewhat
ofhttp://www.gtk.org/. I am not sure if this is a good idea, in my opinion
people could come to the conclusion that we're now some kind of sister project
of GTK. Which is a strange Idea as every
Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf wrote:
Am 01.01.2014 um 19:18 schrieb Riccardo Mottola:
Hi David,
I totally agree, between Xmas, New Year and "bugs" I had to time for website
coding. If you check what I started on gap.nongnu.org,
This one looks nice! A clean, modern layout without distraction. Just
Sebastian Reitenbach wrote:
Hi all,
I guess everybody knows, and also agrees that the GNUstep website is looking
fairly dated, and that
finding contents in it, is somtetimes only possible with help of google.
the last few days I spent on thinking about the website, what it may need,
digging ht
I just noticed that the new web page is now online. This might have
happened a long time ago already as I don't reload the GNUstep page that
often. Many thanks to whom ever did the change. I expect it was Riccardo
as it looks very similar to the GAP page.
It is a bit to minimalistic for me (I real
Hi Fred,
On 2014-07-05 15:02:32 +0200 Fred Kiefer wrote:
I just noticed that the new web page is now online. This might have
happened a long time ago already as I don't reload the GNUstep page
that
often. Many thanks to whom ever did the change. I expect it was
Riccardo
as it looks very sim
El mar, 31-12-2013 a las 02:09 +0100, Sebastian Reitenbach escribió:
> Hi all,
[..]
>
> * maybe trash the wiki.gnustep.org
> * its unmaintainable, contains lots of outdated,
> incorrect and misleading information
> * incorporate important information into the main website
> OR someon
El mar, 31-12-2013 a las 02:09 +0100, Sebastian Reitenbach escribió:
> Hi all,
[...]
> * Talk to German, Adam, moving the stuff in gnustep-nonfsf
> to GAP, or GNUstep, closing off the gnustep-nonfsf project
>
I don't have problem in move this to other place.
Germán.
_
On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 06:45 CET, Germán Arias
wrote:
> El mar, 31-12-2013 a las 02:09 +0100, Sebastian Reitenbach escribió:
> > Hi all,
>
> [..]
>
> >
> > * maybe trash the wiki.gnustep.org
> > * its unmaintainable, contains lots of outdated,
> > incorrect and misleading inf
On 31.12.2013 06:45, Germán Arias wrote:
> El mar, 31-12-2013 a las 02:09 +0100, Sebastian Reitenbach escribió:
>> Hi all,
>
> [..]
>
>>
>> * maybe trash the wiki.gnustep.org
>> * its unmaintainable, contains lots of outdated,
>> incorrect and misleading information
>> * incorporate impor
Am 31.12.2013 06:45, schrieb Germán Arias:
> I think the wiki is important, we just need invite people to update
> and write. In other way, if we put all at main website, this will be
> a lot of work for whichever is the maintainer. And with the time this
> will become outdated.
Yes, wikis or wiki
Hi,
lots of stuff, I can't reply to this all now. However.
The wiki si important.
Germán Arias wrote:
And, since we have Software Index, we can remove all the apps at wiki.
Because this is a duplicated effort.
Sorry, no. Most apps have their only place in the wiki (e.g. no proper
homepage).
On Dec 31, 2013, at 5:40 AM, Markus Hitter wrote:
> I see the lack of wiki usage. I see outdated infos there, but can't fix
> it for the lack of privileges.
>
It's easy to get privileges. Just send your account name to gnustep-webmasters
at gnu.org and we'll give you write access. We do that
Hi,
Fred Kiefer wrote:
with German. The wiki and the web site follow different
purposes and use cases. We need both of them but should make sure
information is always presented on the most suited system.
Duplicated information is bad, as it will most likely be out dated at
one of the places. Let
Hi,
thank's everyone for the input so far. A bit later than anticipated, but
here is the promised summary of the tread so far:
As the discussion turned out,
there are things that need clarification before it makes sense to setup a new
web presentation. Which also gives me, and Riccardo time to im
On 7 Jan 2014, at 08:23, Sebastian Reitenbach
wrote:
> * better OBJC2 support, some more proper gs-make support
A minor point, but Apple hasn't used the term 'Objective-C 2' for over five
years. Possibly because they were mocked for describing the version of
Objective-C that came after Obj
On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 09:37 CET, David Chisnall
wrote:
> On 7 Jan 2014, at 08:23, Sebastian Reitenbach
> wrote:
>
> > * better OBJC2 support, some more proper gs-make support
>
> A minor point, but Apple hasn't used the term 'Objective-C 2' for over five
> years. Possibly becau
On 7 Jan 2014, at 08:37, David Chisnall wrote:
> On 7 Jan 2014, at 08:23, Sebastian Reitenbach
> wrote:
>
>> * better OBJC2 support, some more proper gs-make support
>
> A minor point, but Apple hasn't used the term 'Objective-C 2' for over five
> years. Possibly because they were mocked
On 7 Jan 2014, at 09:23, Richard Frith-Macdonald
wrote:
> Good point ... I hadn't really considered the branding of the
> language/runtime.
>
> I agree that ARC is the killer feature. The others are, IMO relatively minor
> refinements not suitable to be the headline feature, or braindead/blo
"Post-2007 features in language and language runtime"?
I'd however go with Objective-C 2.0. Apple may have stopped using the name,
but it is still a good historical descriptor without a suitable
replacement. It is also a good name to point out a difference from a much
simpler language (and runtime
On 7 Jan 2014, at 10:26, Ivan Vučica wrote:
> "Post-2007 features in language and language runtime"?
I read this as 'we support a 6-year old version of the language! Yay!'
> I'd however go with Objective-C 2.0. Apple may have stopped using the name,
> but it is still a good historical descrip
On 7 Jan 2014, at 10:37, David Chisnall wrote:
> On 7 Jan 2014, at 10:26, Ivan Vučica wrote:
>
>> "Post-2007 features in language and language runtime"?
>
> I read this as 'we support a 6-year old version of the language! Yay!'
>
>> I'd however go with Objective-C 2.0. Apple may have stoppe
Am 07.01.2014 09:37, schrieb David Chisnall:
> - ARC
> - Blocks
> - Properties
Good points. Please write the full wording, not everybody knows what
"ARC" stands for. And how "Properties" is different from what C++ gave
us in 1990.
> - Braindead array and dictionary syntax with poorly thought out
On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 12:02 CET, Markus Hitter wrote:
> Am 07.01.2014 09:37, schrieb David Chisnall:
> > - ARC
> > - Blocks
> > - Properties
>
> Good points. Please write the full wording, not everybody knows what
> "ARC" stands for. And how "Properties" is different from what C++ gave
On 7 Jan 2014, at 10:49, Richard Frith-Macdonald
wrote:
>> I read 'Objective-C 2' as 'we support the features Apple introduced in 2005!
>> Yay!'
>
> You may be unusual in that.
Possibly, but the 2006 WWDC was the first and last time Apple referred to a set
of new Objective-C features as Obj
(Sorry, forgot to CC the list)
Anfang der weitergeleiteten Nachricht:
> Von: Niels Grewe
> Betreff: Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
> Datum: 7. Januar 2014 13:00:12 MEZ
> An: David Chisnall
>
>
> Am 07.01.2014 um 12:06 schrieb David
On 7 Jan 2014, at 12:16, Niels Grewe wrote:
> (Sorry, forgot to CC the list)
>
> Anfang der weitergeleiteten Nachricht:
>
>> Von: Niels Grewe
>> Betreff: Re: Intermediate Summary: Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal
>> Datum: 7. Januar 2014 13:0
On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 13:23 CET, Richard Frith-Macdonald
wrote:
>
> On 7 Jan 2014, at 12:16, Niels Grewe wrote:
>
> > (Sorry, forgot to CC the list)
> > > Anfang der weitergeleiteten Nachricht:
> > >> Von: Niels Grewe
> >> Betreff: Re:
> On Jan 7, 2014, at 1:23, Richard Frith-Macdonald
> wrote:
>
> However, I'm not sure that we can use the term ARC as a big selling point,
> simply because I'm not sure people will understand how good a feature it is.
True -- but when I have described ARC to non-ObjC developers/colleagues, m
On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 6:55 AM, Sebastian Reitenbach <
sebas...@l00-bugdead-prods.de> wrote:
> How about just calling it as simple as: "GNUstep Runtime"
> That GNUstep runs on Objective-C, should be clear from the general
> description
> about what GNUstep is anyways.
>
I would just like to add t
On Tue Jan 07 2014 at 10:37:43 AM, David Chisnall wrote:
> On 7 Jan 2014, at 10:26, Ivan Vučica wrote:
>
> > "Post-2007 features in language and language runtime"?
>
> I read this as 'we support a 6-year old version of the language! Yay!'
>
Last time I checked "post-2007" does include features
On 7 Jan 2014, at 14:19, Ivan Vučica wrote:
>> > "Post-2007 features in language and language runtime"?
>>
>> I read this as 'we support a 6-year old version of the language! Yay!'
>
> Last time I checked "post-2007" does include features introduced in 2011,
> 2012, 2013... :-)
It does, but
I get your viewpoint, but I disagree and have more faith in humanity than
that :-)
Post-2007 is post-2007. It's not "in 2007". It's not "in one year after
2007". Does the concept of post-PC include wearable computing? By the
aforementioned standards, it would seem to me personally that no -- it
wo
On 7 Jan 2014, at 16:13, Ivan Vučica wrote:
> I definitely wouldn't go with anything like Objective-C+ARC since I, for one,
> don't think ARC is nearly as an important addition to the language as
> @synthesize.
I completely disagree. @synthsize is a small improvement. It lets you
generate m
Am 07.01.2014 15:13, schrieb Stefan Bidi:
> The first step for anyone new to GNUstep, after they realize the distro
> supplied packages are sorely out-of-date, will be to compile it using the
> standard compiler/runtime supplied to build GNUstep.
I'm working on this to make this "first step" obsol
On 7 Jan 2014, at 14:13, Stefan Bidi wrote:
> The first step for anyone new to GNUstep, after they realize the distro
> supplied packages are sorely out-of-date, will be to compile it using the
> standard compiler/runtime supplied to build GNUstep.
Both OpenBSD and FreeBSD ship with GNUstep pa
On Tue Jan 07 2014 at 4:31:57 PM, David Chisnall wrote:
> On 7 Jan 2014, at 16:13, Ivan Vučica wrote:
>
> > I definitely wouldn't go with anything like Objective-C+ARC since I, for
> one, don't think ARC is nearly as an important addition to the language as
> @synthesize.
>
> I completely disagr
Hi All
I mostly agree with David about what features to highlight. ARC and blocks
are definitely the two big features that have affected the way I program on
iOS.
However, for someone writing apps for iOS / OS X and using features like
automatic @synthesize (no need to write @synthesize) and the,
On 8 Jan 2014, at 00:28, Lundberg, Johannes
wrote:
> However, for someone writing apps for iOS / OS X and using features like
> automatic @synthesize (no need to write @synthesize) and the, according to
> David, brain dead array / dictionary literals :) it would be nice to know
> that you can
Hi,
Stefan Bidi wrote:
Are we now saying libobjc2 is the "preferred" runtime? If so, it
implies that clang is the preferred compiler. I have no arguments for
or against it, I just want to clarify.
I would not like to do that, we remain "runtime neutral", the runtime is
a dependency. You ca
On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 10:14 CET, Riccardo Mottola
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Stefan Bidi wrote:
> >
> > Are we now saying libobjc2 is the "preferred" runtime? If so, it
> > implies that clang is the preferred compiler. I have no arguments for
> > or against it, I just want to clarify.
> I
Hi,
Stefan Bidi wrote:
The first step for anyone new to GNUstep, after they realize the
distro supplied packages are sorely out-of-date, will be to compile it
using the standard compiler/runtime supplied to build GNUstep.
This is partly true. The problem is that Debianpackages suck and in
cons
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 3:14 AM, Riccardo Mottola wrote:
> Hi,
> I would not like to do that, we remain "runtime neutral", the runtime is a
> dependency. You can use GCC with its GNU runtime, if you use Clang you must
> install libobjc2, but you can (or at least, could, I did that a couple of
> mo
On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 14:47 CET, Stefan Bidi
wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 3:14 AM, Riccardo Mottola > wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > I would not like to do that, we remain "runtime neutral", the runtime is a
> > dependency. You can use GCC with its GNU runtime, if you use Clang you must
>
"Sebastian Reitenbach" wrote:
> I don't know, some unambigous matrix showing what features are available with
> a given compiler/runtime combination.
Yes please. Perhaps like
https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/releasenotes/ObjectiveC/ObjCAvailabilityIndex/index.html
Ross.
Hi,
Ivan Vučica wrote:
I definitely wouldn't go with anything like Objective-C+ARC since I, for
one, don't think ARC is nearly as an important addition to the language as
@synthesize. And five years from now, any arguments against naming it
relative to Objective-C 2.0 will stand against naming i
Riccardo,
They may be crap to you, but they are in common usage and this deserve our
support. The attitude you display towards them is at once non-productive
and not conducive to attracting developers. They are your opinions, not
facts.
You forget when you say things such as the forgoing that t
> Am 12.01.2014 um 00:06 schrieb "Riccardo Mottola" :
>
> ARC instead is more a "taste". It is a new addition in the GC discussion. I
> personally prefer ref-counting.
This seems to be a common misconception: ARC *is* reference counting; it has
very little to do with garbage collection. I als
Niels Grewe wrote:
>> Am 12.01.2014 um 00:06 schrieb "Riccardo Mottola" :
>>
>> ARC instead is more a "taste". It is a new addition in the GC discussion. I
>> personally prefer ref-counting.
>
> This seems to be a common misconception: ARC *is* reference counting; it has
> very little to do wi
Am 13.01.2014 um 11:29 schrieb Wolfgang Lux :
> Niels Grewe wrote:
>
>>> Am 12.01.2014 um 00:06 schrieb "Riccardo Mottola" :
>>>
>>> ARC instead is more a "taste". It is a new addition in the GC discussion. I
>>> personally prefer ref-counting.
>>
>> This seems to be a common misconception: A
On 13 Jan 2014, at 04:04, Niels Grewe wrote:
> There’s no tracing, there’s no attempt made at detecting cyclic references,
> so you still have to think carefully about memory management.
I think it's slightly more subtle than that. With ARC, you have to care about
object ownership, not about
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