Yes, a cookie-munging facility would be nice
-Original Message-
From: Drew Taylor
To: David Hodgkinson
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 7/28/2000 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Templating System
David Hodgkinson wrote:
Drew Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
While I would love to have
Drew Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Ken Williams wrote:
I suggest having not just a simple checkmark, but a 3-way check. A
system either supports a feature, or it doesn't, or it *optionally*
supports it (can be switched on and off). This is often very helpful to
know, and might
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Frank D. Cringle) wrote:
Drew Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Ken Williams wrote:
I suggest having not just a simple checkmark, but a 3-way check. A
system either supports a feature, or it doesn't, or it *optionally*
supports it (can be switched on and off). This
On Fri, 28 Jul 2000, Malcolm Beattie wrote:
Assuming the kernel only keeps track of the last fault position in the file,
it won't recognise that it's being read linearly (twice :-) and may well not
do the async read ahead and drop behind in page cache that it would do
otherwise. Once again,
I want to write a new application using mod_perl but this time I want to
completely divide the code from the HTML. Therefore I am seeking for a
powerfull and fast templating system.
Newly I did something with Enhydra (Java Servlets) and they have a pretty
neat templating system: They use
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Darko Krizic wrote:
I want to write a new application using mod_perl but this time I want to
completely divide the code from the HTML. Therefore I am seeking for a
powerfull and fast templating system.
Newly I did something with Enhydra (Java Servlets) and they have
Darko Krizic [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The program now can repeat the tr "singlerow" for each table row and insert
it under the tr "resultheader". The values can be inserted into the tds
"row_name" and "row_count". The main advantage is: The designer can generate
HTML pages that can be
Newly I did something with Enhydra (Java Servlets) and they
have a pretty
neat templating system: They use standard HTML and one uses the "id"
attribute in HTML tags to access them and manipulate
values/contents.
[...]
Does anybody know something similar for Perl?
The program now can repeat the tr "singlerow" for each
table row and insert
it under the tr "resultheader". The values can be inserted
into the tds
"row_name" and "row_count". The main advantage is: The
designer can generate
HTML pages that can be viewed with a standard browser.
Darko Krizic [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What is the Template Toolkit?
www.template-toolkit.org
--
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com
Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Darko Krizic wrote:
Newly I did something with Enhydra (Java Servlets) and they
have a pretty
neat templating system: They use standard HTML and one uses the "id"
attribute in HTML tags to access them and manipulate
values/contents.
[...]
Do
Darko Krizic [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
As you know projects must be finished until yesterday. It would be a dream
if we could share the templates between Enhydra and Perl. The only problem I
see here is the performance. Enhydra compiles the java and the HTML pages
and creates methods and a
How long do you think would this last? I could wait for
about 3 hours or so
;-)
Well... longer than that. But even if I wrote something this
afternoon -
you still wouldn't learn it very quickly.
No stress here please. If you do something then send it to me and I will
take a closer
Darko Krizic wrote:
What other templating systems do exists that are usefull?
Thats a huge question, here's a few:
EmbPerl- mixing of HTML and logic
Template Toolkit - will take a look at it right now
Apache::ASP- nice (session management), but still mixing
Apache::ASP- nice (session management), but still mixing
I saw your note about Apache::ASP mixing...
with Apache::ASP a lead site engineer can define custom tags
with XMLSubsMatch that will make XML tags execute
as perl subs, check out: http://www.nodeworks.com/asp/xml.html
Darko Krizic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
...
table id="results"
tr id="resultheader"
thName/th
thCount/th
/tr
tr id="singlerow
td id="row_name"example name/td
td id="row_count"example count/td
/tr
/table
...
Darko Krizic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
...
table id="results"
tr id="resultheader"
thName/th
thCount/th
/tr
tr id="singlerow
td id="row_name"example name/td
td id="row_count"example count/td
/tr
In a message dated 7/27/00 7:21:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
There is one big difference in the enhydra approach: The templates are
standard HTML, because the id tag is part of the HTML standard. The designer
can create the whole site and make a dry test, because
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I hear you, yet I also know that the ID= tags are valid CSS. You are going to
screw
yourself up one way or the other with that.
For instance...
STYLE
TD {color: red;}
.oneTD { color: yellow }
/STYLE
Now, your TD cells are going to get
If you want a modperl based enhydra like system, check
out http://www.best.com/~pjl/software/html_tree/
by Paul J. Lucas, who tends to write incredibly fast
software, like his Swish++
http://www.best.com/~pjl/software/swish/
--Joshua
Darko Krizic wrote:
Darko Krizic [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In a message dated 7/27/00 7:57:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
For instance...
STYLE
TD {color: red;}
.oneTD { color: yellow }
/STYLE
Now, your TD cells are going to get the red (assuming you
On Thu, Jul 27, 2000 at 01:28:06PM +0200, Darko Krizic wrote:
There is one big difference in the enhydra approach: The templates are
standard HTML, because the id tag is part of the HTML standard. The
designer can create the whole site and make a dry test, because all
links even work. The
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Roger Espel Llima wrote:
On Thu, Jul 27, 2000 at 01:28:06PM +0200, Darko Krizic wrote:
There is one big difference in the enhydra approach: The templates are
standard HTML, because the id tag is part of the HTML standard. The
designer can create the whole site and
David Hodgkinson wrote:
Darko Krizic [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
As you know projects must be finished until yesterday. It would be a dream
if we could share the templates between Enhydra and Perl. The only problem I
see here is the performance. Enhydra compiles the java and the HTML
My ideal system would be those the designer can see the server-side
objects and data fields in the database, and only associate them with
the template by drag-n-drop.
The designer doesn't sees any special tags, and doesn't have to conform
to those "variables" with the programmer. The
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Kenneth Lee wrote:
My ideal system would be those the designer can see the server-side
objects and data fields in the database, and only associate them with
the template by drag-n-drop.
The designer doesn't sees any special tags, and doesn't have to conform
to those
OK, I'm nearing the end of one project so I'm able to take a look at new
solutions so one question comes to mind. What does the template toolkit
offer above and beyond HTML::Embperl or some other templating solution?
On a side note, wouldn't the mod_perl community be better served
focusing on
At 11:26 Uhr +0200 27.7.2000, Darko Krizic wrote:
Newly I did something with Enhydra (Java Servlets) and they have a pretty
...
Does anybody know something similar for Perl?
I have lately written my own templating scheme, which is part of my
framework running on top of fastcgi (including
On Thu, Jul 27, 2000 at 10:00:30AM -0400, Erich L. Markert wrote:
On a side note, wouldn't the mod_perl community be better served
focusing on one of these solutions and building upon it and creating a
mod_perl based application server much like Python has Zope?
A similar project is underway
I'm not going to disparage any of the other templating systems but since
noone has chimed in for HTML::Mason, I guess I'll have to. Important
aspects of such a beast is componentization, not just "mail merge"
behaviors.
Mason components can be just HTML (or XML or fooML) or just Perl or both.
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Erich L. Markert wrote:
OK, I'm nearing the end of one project so I'm able to take a look at new
solutions so one question comes to mind. What does the template toolkit
offer above and beyond HTML::Embperl or some other templating solution?
It implements some wacky
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Darko Krizic wrote:
I want to write a new application using mod_perl but this time I want to
completely divide the code from the HTML. Therefore I am seeking for a
powerfull and fast templating system.
http://www.best.com/~pjl/software/html_tree/
It does
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Darko Krizic wrote:
The only problem I see here is the performance. Enhydra compiles the java and
the HTML pages and creates methods and a DOM model. Doing this on the fly
(for mod_perl) would be a big drawback in performance. Maybe there should be
some kind of
One of the larger vendors that most people haven't heard of is
mediasurface. Their whole system is just a perl httpd server. And I've
heard that Vignette is written in Perl (or was).
Unfortunately not, TCL, and painful it is ...
for a
powerfull and fast templating system.
http://www.best.com/~pjl/software/html_tree/
It does precisely what you're asking.
Hey, that's really nice. And once the template HTML files are parsed, I
can just leave the $root_node in memory for future requests, right? ANd
since the parser
Thanks for the information below, Ian. Our site is very content-oriented,
and a lot of our business projects are starting to involve things like
co-branding and licensing content, so I'm very interested to hear more
about how you are integrating XSLT and Mason.
Do you generate XML documents
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Barry Hoggard wrote:
Thanks for the information below, Ian. Our site is very content-oriented,
and a lot of our business projects are starting to involve things like
co-branding and licensing content, so I'm very interested to hear more
about how you are integrating
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Now, your TD cells are going to get the red (assuming you aren't using
Netscape's broken CSS). But how could you force one cell to get the yellow?
The normal way to do it would be TD ID="oneTD" but you have already used up
your ID tag.
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Jeffrey W. Baker wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Paul J. Lucas wrote:
http://www.best.com/~pjl/software/html_tree/
Hey, that's really nice.
Thanks. :) Admitedly, the web site could use more example
other than what's in the manual pages, but where,
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote:
http://www.best.com/~pjl/software/html_tree/
Aside from the GPL, it does looks nice.
What's wrong with the GPL? It's open-source and free of cost.
What more do you want?
- Paul
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Paul J. Lucas wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote:
http://www.best.com/~pjl/software/html_tree/
Aside from the GPL, it does looks nice.
What's wrong with the GPL? It's open-source and free of cost.
What more do you want?
The
So quit whining ask him to allow LGPL.
I've found most GPL authors are more than willing to allow LGPL...
-Original Message-
From: Matt Sergeant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2000 1:22 PM
To: Paul J. Lucas
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Templating system
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote:
I wrote:
What's wrong with the GPL? It's open-source and free of cost.
What more do you want?
The ability to build commercial applications.
The GPL allows you to use and incorporate GPL'd software into
commercial
"BH" == Barry Hoggard [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
BH Thanks for the information below, Ian. Our site is very content-oriented,
BH and a lot of our business projects are starting to involve things like
BH co-branding and licensing content, so I'm very interested to hear more
BH about how you
"Paul J. Lucas" wrote:
The ability to build commercial applications.
The GPL allows you to use and incorporate GPL'd software into
commercial applications. However, if you *modify* the GPL'd
software, you *must* make said modifications freely available
I thought I'd drop a note on templating systems, since we seem to be having a
general discussion on it. I wrote the Text::TagTemplate module (on CPAN these
days, even!) and though I'm not going to actively suggest anyone using it (it
lacks good looping and conditional constructs, for one
-Original Message-
From: Paul J. Lucas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2000 10:11 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Templating system
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Jeffrey W. Baker wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Paul J. Lucas wrote:
http://www.best.com
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Douglas Wilson wrote:
Until now I've been leaning toward the Template Toolkit, if only
because the template elements can be filled in with other templates
(maybe that's just in the beta version, I forget). We'd like to just
have a standard Header/Footer, but have the
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Jacob Davies wrote:
SELECT NAME="country"
OPTION VALUE="uk" #COUNTRY SELECTEDIF="uk" The Mother Country
OPTION VALUE="us" #COUNTRY SELECTEDIF="us" Some Other Country
/SELECT
In Mason that looks like:
option value="uk" % $country eq 'uk' ? 'selected' : '' %
Or
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Jacob Davies wrote:
INPUT TYPE="TEXT" NAME="first_name" VALUE="#FIRST_NAME HTMLESC"
If I understand what this does, my HTML Tree can do this by
doing:
INPUT TYPE=text NAME="first_name" VALUE="" CLASS="value::first_name"
where the VALUE
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Autarch wrote:
option value="uk" % 'selected' if $country eq 'uk' %
Seems pretty close to what you want, I think.
Except it puts Perl code in the HTML file and uses invalid
HTML.
- Paul
SELECT NAME="country"
OPTION VALUE="uk" #COUNTRY SELECTEDIF="uk" The Mother Country
OPTION VALUE="us" #COUNTRY SELECTEDIF="us" Some Other Country
/SELECT
In Mason that looks like:
option value="uk" % $country eq 'uk' ? 'selected' : '' %
Or
option value="uk" % 'selected' if
SELECT NAME="country"
OPTION VALUE="uk" #COUNTRY SELECTEDIF="uk" The Mother Country
OPTION VALUE="us" #COUNTRY SELECTEDIF="us" Some Other Country
/SELECT
In Mason that looks like:
option value="uk" % $country eq 'uk' ? 'selected' : '' %
Or
option value="uk" %
-Original Message-
From: Paul J. Lucas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2000 10:11 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Templating system
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Jeffrey W. Baker wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Paul J. Lucas wrote:
http://www.best.com
does not try to provide an entire web
programming framework. It is a templating system only. Neat tricks like
automatic form state in Embperl are not built into it.
However, it has a very complete syntax for dealing with templating, and is
easy for HTML coders who don't know perl to use
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Kenneth Lee wrote:
My ideal system would be those the designer can see the server-side
objects and data fields in the database, and only associate them with
the template by drag-n-drop. The designer doesn't sees any special
tags, and doesn't have to conform to those
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Douglas Wilson wrote:
http://www.best.com/~pjl/software/html_tree/
Is there a reason this is not on CPAN?
The reasons (not necessarily good ones) are:
1. I haven't had the time to figure out their submission
procedures.
2.
In a message dated 7/27/00 12:56:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
...which is why the CLASS attribute is a better choice: it
specifically allows multiple classes, e.g.:
CLASS="one two three"
- Paul
That sure is something I didn't know.
Watching this discussion has been very interesting, I am all for
separating the HTML and the code portions and have been unable to think of
a good solution to this particular problem. I ran across smartworker
(http://www.smartworker.org) a while ago and even though I have not had
the time/chance
at a time earlier than now, Perrin Harkins wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Kenneth Lee wrote:
My ideal system would be those the designer can see the server-side
objects and data fields in the database, and only associate them with
--- begin sappy gratitude ---
my ideal system is having an
On Thu, Jul 27, 2000 at 11:03:16AM -0700, Douglas Wilson wrote:
-Original Message-
From: Paul J. Lucas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2000 10:11 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Templating system
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Jeffrey W. Baker wrote
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Jauder Ho wrote:
If there was somehow a way to cache say the template, leaving only the
same dynamic portion uncached, it would certainly help things along
quite a bit. If anyone knows of a good way of doing this I would
certainly be interested in hearing it.
I believe
"Jacob" == Jacob Davies [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Jacob A HREF="/somehandler?email=#EMAIL URLESC"
That should actually be both URL escaped *and* HTML escaped if it
also contains 's, like the form fields.
You probably knew that, but in case anyone else is watching :)
--
Randal L.
--
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:22:26 Jauder Ho wrote:
Watching this discussion has been very interesting, I am all for
separating the HTML and the code portions and have been unable to think of
a good solution to this particular problem. I ran across smartworker
(http://www.smartworker.org) a
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Gerald Richter wrote:
To keep it fast Embperl is written in C.
Unless you use mmap(2), you can't compete with the speed of
HTML Tree. The only downside of mmap(2) is that HTML Tree must
be first in an Apache::Filter filter chain.
- Paul
Jauder Ho wrote:
snip
XML+XSLT is an interesting combination
but integrating that into a dynamic generator (perl based or other) is
going to be nontrivial to say the very least. Is there anyone interested
in exploring this?
/snip
Most of the hard work for this has been done by our own
On Thu, Jul 27, 2000 at 01:14:54PM -0700, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
"Jacob" == Jacob Davies [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Jacob A HREF="/somehandler?email=#EMAIL URLESC"
That should actually be both URL escaped *and* HTML escaped if it
also contains 's, like the form fields.
When I say
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Jauder Ho wrote:
If there was somehow a way to cache say the template, leaving only the same
dynamic portion uncached, it would certainly help things along quite a bit.
An improvement to the technique used by HTML Tree is to
"collapse" the non-dynamic
"Jacob" == Jacob Davies [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Jacob Now as to ampersands used to separate form fields, like:
Jacob A HREF="/somehandler?email=jacob%40sfinteractive.comname=Jacob"
Jacob do you mean that it should be:
Jacob A
Cool, I will definitely look further into this. Time to google...
--Jauder
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Kip Hampton wrote:
Jauder Ho wrote:
snip
XML+XSLT is an interesting combination
but integrating that into a dynamic generator (perl based or other) is
going to be nontrivial to say the
would
have to be mod_perl and you would run the templating system there and then
make calls to another server that hands back some kind of data to be
inserted in it. I've used this paradigm before.
- Perrin
At 19:57 Uhr +0200 27.7.2000, Jacob Davies wrote:
SELECT NAME="country"
OPTION VALUE="uk" #COUNTRY SELECTEDIF="uk" The Mother Country
OPTION VALUE="us" #COUNTRY SELECTEDIF="us" Some Other Country
/SELECT
In my system I would do
$htmltemplatefill_select("country",
, but I don't know who else would be interested in the effort.
It would really require all the major templating system developers to work with
it, and maybe that cat's too far out of the bag. I think that's a real shame
if it's true, that just as we are starting to get settled on a really basic
On 27-Jul-2000 Joshua Chamas wrote:
I agree with your thoughts completely. One of the reasons why
I built Apache::ASP was that ASP is a widely used standard,
albeit one that Microsoft developed. I wanted to be able to
leverage the mindshare of ASP scripters from a templating
standpoint,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 27-Jul-2000 Joshua Chamas wrote:
I agree with your thoughts completely. One of the reasons why
I built Apache::ASP was that ASP is a widely used standard,
albeit one that Microsoft developed. I wanted to be able to
leverage the mindshare of ASP scripters
is this a gauntlet being thrown down?
i hear the sound of parsing engines grinding away:
gentleman - start your benchmarks.
--
___cliff [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.genwax.com/
"Paul J. Lucas" wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Gerald Richter wrote:
To keep it fast Embperl is written in C.
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Joshua Chamas wrote:
Did you know that ASP also has a really great event model, like
Session_OnStart, Session_OnEnd, etc, I still don't see this in the other
templating modules.
IMHO, dynamic content page generation should have nothing to do
with session
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Ian Kallen wrote:
Why the heck do we need more programming languages? I understand people
think they're performing some kind of service by cooking up something that
looks simple for non-programmers but it looks more like hamstringing to
me, no thanks. I'm impressed
Jauder Ho wrote:
the time/chance to implement such a system, it certainly looks like an
interesting method of doing things. XML+XSLT is an interesting combination
but integrating that into a dynamic generator (perl based or other) is
going to be nontrivial to say the very least. Is there
I see the plethora of templating tools as being the single
biggest problem with
Perl web application development right now.
Embperl is one of first templating systems. When other people came up with
new ideas, I always ask them if there is a chance to integrate these ideas
and put our
To keep it fast Embperl is written in C.
Unless you use mmap(2), you can't compete with the speed of
HTML Tree. The only downside of mmap(2) is that HTML Tree must
be first in an Apache::Filter filter chain.
As far as I understand you you use mmap to read in the source
If there was somehow a way to cache say the template, leaving
only the same
dynamic portion uncached, it would certainly help things along
quite a bit.
An improvement to the technique used by HTML Tree is to
"collapse" the non-dynamic portions of an HTML file into a
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Darko Krizic wrote:
I want to write a new application using mod_perl but this time I want to
completely divide the code from the HTML. Therefore I am seeking for a
powerfull and fast templating system.
Newly I did
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