Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Dan Hardiker wrote: > Could we not just release a patch to the people that want it (well, need > it!), and leave the "official implementation" until PHP5? That way the > carrot remains, but nothing is held back from the people who desperatly > want it. Having 'official' patc

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

On 08/20/02, "Shane Caraveo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Personally, I would trash 4.3, and focus on the next major version > including ze2. Do it now, get it over with. Having this non-descript > 4.3 between now and ze2 is somewhat distracting. There can be minor > point releases to backpo

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 11:20 AM 8/20/2002 -0700, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: > > By the way, the only personal gain I have in getting ZE2 out of there is > > that it's my code and that PHP will do much better. I think that PHP is > > going to loose out big time if things don't start gaining some momentum. > > Backporting i

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

> > It took us a long time to get php-dev@ moving on the new version > because most of them were still using PHP 3 for their production sites. > The fact that you guys are so strongly in favor of putting this cool > feature into ZE1 proves that not putting it in could give ZE2 a big > boost of

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

> By the way, the only personal gain I have in getting ZE2 out of there is > that it's my code and that PHP will do much better. I think that PHP is > going to loose out big time if things don't start gaining some momentum. > Backporting is definitely a momentum breaker *especially* as everyone >

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

Thies, just commit the patch and let this thread die. Shane -- PHP Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 09:55 PM 8/19/2002 -0700, Brad LaFountain wrote: > > I still think it shouldn't go in. This is the only feature in Engine 2 > > which might make non-OOP people convert. Once this isn't in Engine 2 we > > don't have a carrot for them. > > You as a Zend owner who's business could be very propit

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 16:02 20/08/2002, Jani Taskinen wrote: >On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Andi Gutmans wrote: > > >I still think it shouldn't go in. This is the only feature in Engine 2 > >which might make non-OOP people convert. Once this isn't in Engine 2 we > >don't have a carrot for them. > > I guess you want PHP 5

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 20:27 20/08/2002, Brad LaFountain wrote: > I don't see it as a slap in the face it should be considered a > compliment that >it was written well enough to be backported. Uhm, well, it isn't. I think it was obvious that it was a pretty neat implementation, there was really no need for any a

RE: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

> -Original Message- > From: Zeev Suraski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 6:58 PM > To: Rasmus Lerdorf > Cc: Andi Gutmans; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1 > >

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

--- Zeev Suraski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > At 19:35 20/08/2002, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: > >We should not be talking about carrots here, and Thies is not saying > >"screw you" to you. He wants to help PHP users today. > > That almost sounds like a Microsoft tagline :) Come on, you know what he

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 20:04 20/08/2002, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: >If you could explain to me why holding back a useful feature that could >help a lot of users today is somehow better for these users, then you >might be able to convince me. Is it because by holding it back now we can >force a portion of users who are d

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

> >We have a feature that doesn't destabilize anything or slow anything down > >as far as I can tell, and would be very useful to a whole bunch of users > >today. If that single point is not more important than anything else, then > >we are getting completely offtrack here. > > I disagree. Exactl

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 19:35 20/08/2002, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: >We should not be talking about carrots here, and Thies is not saying >"screw you" to you. He wants to help PHP users today. That almost sounds like a Microsoft tagline :) Come on, you know what he meant. If Andi didn't implement this efficient approa

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

> I still think it shouldn't go in. This is the only feature in Engine 2 > which might make non-OOP people convert. Once this isn't in Engine 2 we > don't have a carrot for them. Why can't you respect this way of > thinking? Especially as I wrote the code? You're basically saying screw > them beca

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

>> Obvisouly we all have our own opnion I wanted to state mine not get >> in a big >>argument about this. I do see your point, as a zend2 advocate, and im >> sure you see mine too, as a php user who wants debug_backtrace. So what >> to do, do you just call the shots or do we have an offical vote?

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 18:45 20/08/2002, Brad LaFountain wrote: >First of all I wanna just say that I'm just stating my opnion. You seem to be >getting angry. Im not trying to say your wrong and I'm right. Please don't >take >it like that. I'm not angry at all :) > Obvisouly we all have our own opnion I wanted t

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

[..] >> >Besides whos to say that >> >adding debug_backtrace now to 4.3 won't steer more people to php >> instead of other envrionments. >> >> I'm willing to be the first person to say this if no one beats me to >> it... Such a featurelet steering people to choose one >> technology/platform ove

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 06:12:19PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: > > You won't upgrade even in a year's time, or even 1.5 year's time, when all > new features, and at some point, security fixes, are available for > it? That is my point, Brad, exactly. We barely have enough manpower to > maintain

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

First of all I wanna just say that I'm just stating my opnion. You seem to be getting angry. Im not trying to say your wrong and I'm right. Please don't take it like that. --- Zeev Suraski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > At 17:21 20/08/2002, Brad LaFountain wrote: > > Ok this experience you are ta

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 17:21 20/08/2002, Brad LaFountain wrote: > Ok this experience you are talking about is converting php3 => php4 correct? Both PHP/FI 2 => PHP 3 and PHP 3 => PHP 4 >Well how many people are were using php3 at that time? Siginifntly less? The >conversion from php3 to php4 offered a more stable

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

--- Zeev Suraski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > At 07:55 20/08/2002, Brad LaFountain wrote: > > You as a Zend owner who's business could be very propitable for Zend2 > > success > >or you as a php developer > > Brad, > > This is CLEARLY as PHP developers. We happen to have quite a bit of > ex

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

> On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Andi Gutmans wrote: >> I still think it shouldn't go in. This is the only feature in Engine 2 >> which might make non-OOP people convert. Once this isn't in Engine 2 we >> don't have a carrot for them. [..] > I'm +1 for getting this backtrace thing in PHP asap. It's mo

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Andi Gutmans wrote: >I still think it shouldn't go in. This is the only feature in Engine 2 >which might make non-OOP people convert. Once this isn't in Engine 2 we >don't have a carrot for them. I guess you want PHP 5 only to have ZE2 as the only major change?

RE: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

> -Original Message- > From: Andi Gutmans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 6:26 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1 > > > At 12:30 PM 8/19/2002

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 07:55 20/08/2002, Brad LaFountain wrote: > You as a Zend owner who's business could be very propitable for Zend2 > success >or you as a php developer Brad, This is CLEARLY as PHP developers. We happen to have quite a bit of experience in getting the userbase to convert from one version to

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 13:30 19/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: >On Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 11:45:30AM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: > > > > How often do you call a function that gives you your current backtrace in > > C? In my many years of C experience, I would have to say that the > accurate > > answer is -0- times.

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

On Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 11:45:30AM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: > > How often do you call a function that gives you your current backtrace in > C? In my many years of C experience, I would have to say that the accurate > answer is -0- times. You really should compare apples with apples...

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 11:36 19/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: > my apache 2.0 thing got misinterpreted a bit - let me > clearify: apache2.0 is ready, it works and it's even better > than 1.3 (the httpd itself). but ppls don't upgrade all > threir servers immediatly. as rasmus mentioned, the same >

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 11:48:03PM +0300, Andi Gutmans wrote: > At 07:50 PM 8/18/2002 +0200, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: > >On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 10:29:47AM -0700, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: > >> I don't think we should stop people from tweaking ZE1. ZE2 is probably > >> more than a year away from realis

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

One another suggestion a change in ZE1 that would ease transition to ZE2. making $object->__clone() work on ZE1 (eg. parse equivalant to $object) , (without having to add it to all classes that are likely to need it).. would at least enable code written for ZE1 work with ZE2.. and visa versa

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 07:50 PM 8/18/2002 +0200, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: >On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 10:29:47AM -0700, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: > > I don't think we should stop people from tweaking ZE1. ZE2 is probably > > more than a year away from realistically being available to a lot of > > people. It takes a while for

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 21:58 18/08/2002, Wez Furlong wrote: >Generally speaking, and please don't take offense, I think that one >of the problems with ZE2 is that development is slow. I understand >that there are several very good reasons for that, but the real >problem is that there aren't enough people with enough

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

Here my opinion, in case it is worth anything: Backport debug_backtrace(): +1 Backport all ZE2 changes: -1 Get more momentum behind ZE2: +1 On 08/18/02, "Thies C. Arntzen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > zeev, this discussion should be pure technical, any political > or personal thing

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

> look at the opcodes for: > > a(b(c())); > > function a() {} > function b() {} > function c() {} > > and tell me which function is called from which scope. unless > you know something i dont youll see > a() > b() > c() > > which is wrong as the correct

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 09:26:45PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: > At 21:15 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: > >On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 09:00:25PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: > >> At 20:54 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: > >> >BTW: the code we're talking about is neither magic nor very > >>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 21:15 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: >On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 09:00:25PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: > > At 20:54 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: > > >BTW: the code we're talking about is neither magic nor very > > >complex. andi, sorry i you felt me stepping on your feet;-) > >

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 01:06:47PM -0500, Richard Thomas wrote: > Zeev makes a very very good point here.. > > What is the point of backporting everything into 4.3, There is no real > point. PHP needs to move forward with new and improved.. Not spending > its time going no where, and trying to im

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 08:18:40PM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On Sun, 18 Aug 2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: > > > we _want_ to work together, right? atleast i want that. i > > have pulled my hair many times for having a real-backtrace on > > a production-site _without_ having to

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 09:00:25PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: > At 20:54 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: > >BTW: the code we're talking about is neither magic nor very > >complex. andi, sorry i you felt me stepping on your feet;-) > > And yet you took it from ZE2 a couple of months af

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

On Sun, 18 Aug 2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: > we _want_ to work together, right? atleast i want that. i > have pulled my hair many times for having a real-backtrace on > a production-site _without_ having to load an extension that > makes the whole site ~10% slower (sorry, derick

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 21:00 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: > so - cool, you (z&a) stopped working on it. does that mean > it's now written in stone and nobody is allowed to touch it? Feature-wise, I hope so. There's so much I can do to actually make it so, though. > We have a pretty clear roadmap f

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

Zeev makes a very very good point here.. What is the point of backporting everything into 4.3, There is no real point. PHP needs to move forward with new and improved.. Not spending its time going no where, and trying to improve on going no where. With ZE2 being the current goal the only thing t

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 20:56 18/08/2002, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: > > At 20:29 18/08/2002, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: > > >I don't think we should stop people from tweaking ZE1. ZE2 is probably > > >more than a year away from realistically being available to a lot of > > >people. > > > > No, it's not. It's around 6 months a

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 21:00 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: > this is more than a little frustrating for me and i'm sure > not too many ppls will be happy about your "desupport notice" > for ZE1. It has nothing to do with desupport. I fixed ZE1 issues, *COMPLEX* ones, that cost me days of low leve

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 20:54 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: > BTW: the code we're talking about is neither magic nor very > complex. andi, sorry i you felt me stepping on your feet;-) And yet you took it from ZE2 a couple of months after it was written, as opposed to two years ago when ZE1 was already

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 08:50:04PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: > At 20:24 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: > >On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 08:19:52PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: > >> I haven't, because of the two reasons I mentioned. There's nothing about > >> the specifics of the patch that can make

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

> At 20:29 18/08/2002, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: > >I don't think we should stop people from tweaking ZE1. ZE2 is probably > >more than a year away from realistically being available to a lot of > >people. > > No, it's not. It's around 6 months away from being > production-quality. That's exactly th

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 08:49:30PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: > At 20:40 18/08/2002, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >I'm not happy with that indeed. ZE1 is still the current version, and I > >wouldn't see any reason to not extend it (or even backport things from > >ZE2 as this patch is largely about).

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 20:24 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: >On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 08:19:52PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: > > I haven't, because of the two reasons I mentioned. There's nothing about > > the specifics of the patch that can make me change my personal mind about > > it... > > I understand you dis

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 10:29:47AM -0700, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: > I don't think we should stop people from tweaking ZE1. ZE2 is probably > more than a year away from realistically being available to a lot of > people. It takes a while for people to upgrade, and many will skip the .0 > release. If

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 20:40 18/08/2002, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >I'm not happy with that indeed. ZE1 is still the current version, and I >wouldn't see any reason to not extend it (or even backport things from >ZE2 as this patch is largely about). Why not backport all the changes then? I'm -1 on introducing any new

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

At 20:29 18/08/2002, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: >I don't think we should stop people from tweaking ZE1. ZE2 is probably >more than a year away from realistically being available to a lot of >people. No, it's not. It's around 6 months away from being production-quality. That's exactly the mispercept

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

On Sun, 18 Aug 2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: > On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 08:19:52PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: > > I haven't, because of the two reasons I mentioned. There's nothing about > > the specifics of the patch that can make me change my personal mind about > > it... > > I understand you

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

I don't think we should stop people from tweaking ZE1. ZE2 is probably more than a year away from realistically being available to a lot of people. It takes a while for people to upgrade, and many will skip the .0 release. If a few tweaks to ZE1 can eliminate peoples' motivation to move to ZE2, t

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 08:19:52PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: > I haven't, because of the two reasons I mentioned. There's nothing about > the specifics of the patch that can make me change my personal mind about > it... > I understand you disagree with me about the momentum issue, so let's agr

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

I haven't, because of the two reasons I mentioned. There's nothing about the specifics of the patch that can make me change my personal mind about it... I understand you disagree with me about the momentum issue, so let's agree to disagree. Zeev At 20:12 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: >

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

there is one tiny change that might destabelize the ZE1 - i asked if you could take a look and see if you agree with me that this change is actually *not* harmful. i don't really see your point that having debug_backtrace only available in ZE2 will bring more momentum to the

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

I also think we should make sure enough people have motivation to move to ZE2. If not it'll be hard to push it out and we all know that it's a very important step for PHP. As it is, there is still not enough momentum behind it. Andi At 05:38 PM 8/18/2002 +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: >I said befor

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

I said before - I prefer not having any changes in ZE1, for both stability reasons and also as a motivation to get ZE2 out the door more quickly. Zeev At 17:21 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: > if noone objects i'm going to commit this to -HEAD (and we > can start discussing it the

Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

if noone objects i'm going to commit this to -HEAD (and we can start discussing it then;-) re, tc On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 07:39:59PM +0200, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: > > hi, > > this patch adds the extremely useful debug_backtrace() > function to ZE1. as it's more-o

[PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1

hi, this patch adds the extremely useful debug_backtrace() function to ZE1. as it's more-or-less the same implementation as in ZE2 so it should be "fast and efficient" enough for inclusion in 4.3 IMHO. it has one extra feature over the ZE2 implementation by giving s