Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-31 Thread Bo-Erik Sandholm
I have decided to simplify the DIY head tracking dongle build and setup in some aspects, now I have ordered this sensor that do not need initial calibration. This is the new sensor module: https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-neopixel-uberguide/overview It will initially be combined with a esp8266

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-30 Thread umashankar manthravadi
elepac.pt> Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 1:28 AM To: rica...@justnet.com.au<mailto:rica...@justnet.com.au>; Surround Sound discussion group<mailto:sursound@music.vt.edu> Cc: Aaron Heller<mailto:hel...@ai.sri.com> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on ex

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-30 Thread Bo-Erik Sandholm
https://www.google.se/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://notendur.hi.is/~spagnols/pubbl/ICSV_2015.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwj-se-KwtLKAhUFwHIKHYX6CWAQFgg1MAk&usg=AFQjCNHQlgAIQgBkfCsP-bA8Vop-ww0wYg&sig2=lrdagh2wB-trUTu6EJr7aA These guys have almost certainly the knowledge in how to create a head tracking c

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-30 Thread Bo-Erik Sandholm
http://multi-science.atypon.com/doi/abs/10.1260/1351-010X.18.1-2.227#/doi/abs/10.1260/1351-010X.18.1-2.207 These are are relevant From my point of view for head above torso impact. If this could be included in head tracked conversion for FOA to binaural, I think it would improve it. One way would

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-30 Thread Bo-Erik Sandholm
A paper on the importance of shoulder reflections and torso diffraction in lower frequencies for elevation cues. Sadly no data for impact of torso turning in relation to the head. https://www.google.se/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://interface.cipic.ucdavis.edu/pubs/ICASSP_Mar_1999.pdf&ved=0a

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-30 Thread Stefan Schreiber
Richard Lee wrote: Just to bring everyone down to earth .. There are two easily reproduced experiments first carried out by prominent members of this group which put these effects into perspective. They are the Greene/Lee Neckbrace and Malham/Van Gogh Experiment The first shows 'real

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-30 Thread Stefan Schreiber
Stefan Schreiber wrote: Richard Lee wrote: Just to bring everyone down to earth .. There are two easily reproduced experiments first carried out by prominent members of this group which put these effects into perspective. They are the Greene/Lee Neckbrace and Malham/Van Gogh Experiment

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-30 Thread Stefan Schreiber
Richard Lee wrote: Just to bring everyone down to earth .. There are two easily reproduced experiments first carried out by prominent members of this group which put these effects into perspective. They are the Greene/Lee Neckbrace and Malham/Van Gogh Experiment The first shows 'real life

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-30 Thread Stefan Schreiber
Richard Furse wrote: Interesting thread! At the risk of accusations of marketing (the shame, the shame!)*, I thought I'd provide a few details on how Blue Ripple Sound approaches binaural HOA decoders. There are certainly no marketing issues here, especially since this thread has started wit

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-30 Thread Stefan Schreiber
After reading lots views Oh my dear, this reads like a Russian to German to English translation... Probably my brain is still recovering from some alcohol intoxication suffered at a certain point during my childhood, which I even can't remember because of the usual mechanisms of psychologica

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-30 Thread Stefan Schreiber
Richard Lee wrote: Just to bring everyone down to earth .. There are two easily reproduced experiments first carried out by prominent members of this group which put these effects into perspective. They are the Greene/Lee Neckbrace and Malham/Van Gogh Experiment The first shows 'real life

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-29 Thread umashankar manthravadi
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2016 5:39 PM To: 'Surround Sound discussion group'<mailto:sursound@music.vt.edu> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural Just to bring everyone down to earth .. There are two easily reproduced expe

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-29 Thread Politis Archontis
> On 30 Jan 2016, at 00:05, Richard Lee wrote: > > Just to bring everyone down to earth .. > > There are two easily reproduced experiments first carried out by prominent > members of this group which put these effects into perspective. They are > the > > Greene/Lee Neckbrace > and > Malham/V

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-29 Thread Richard Furse
Interesting thread! At the risk of accusations of marketing (the shame, the shame!)*, I thought I'd provide a few details on how Blue Ripple Sound approaches binaural HOA decoders. We DO use an approach which shares quite a bit with Archontis' suggestions. I prefer this to the "virtual speaker"

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-29 Thread Richard Lee
Just to bring everyone down to earth .. There are two easily reproduced experiments first carried out by prominent members of this group which put these effects into perspective. They are the Greene/Lee Neckbrace and Malham/Van Gogh Experiment The first shows 'real life' Fixed Head Localisati

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-29 Thread Politis Archontis
HI Bo-Erik, Sorry I wasn’t very clear on my comments about the HRTF order, Jörn covered it much better! You need very high orders if you want to preserve HRTFs as they are when you measure them, and the order that you can expand them depends on how many points you measure them around the head.

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-28 Thread Jörn Nettingsmeier
On 01/28/2016 10:12 PM, Bo-Erik Sandholm wrote: I do understand that HOA can represent resolution of directivity in the mathematic domain better than FOA. But I am starting to suspect we are overworking something when we are talking of order 8 to 15? talking about using order 15 to retain the f

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-28 Thread Peter Lennox
@music.vt.edu] on behalf of Fons > Adriaensen [f...@linuxaudio.org] > Sent: 27 January 2016 23:58 > To: sursound@music.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining > B-format to binaural > > > plus independent decorators/reverberators pe

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-28 Thread Bo-Erik Sandholm
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining > B-format to binaural > > > plus independent decorators/reverberators per HOA channel, > > with different decays at different frequencies, for the > > late part. The late part filters require a

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-28 Thread Politis Archontis
Hi Fons, ___ From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] on behalf of Fons Adriaensen [f...@linuxaudio.org] Sent: 27 January 2016 23:58 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-27 Thread Dave Malham
> > > >> From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] on behalf of Jörn >> Nettingsmeier [netti...@stackingdwarves.net] >> Sent: 26 January 2016 22:52 >> To: sursound@music.vt.edu >> Subject: [Sursound] Never do ma

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-27 Thread Stefan Schreiber
Marc Lavallée wrote: Free documents from Rozenn Nicol: https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-01066312/ http://www.sga-ssa.ch/docs/events/120510_ssa_printemps2012_01-nicol.pdf Great links. Many thanks! The "Spectral Cue" (SC) concept - referring to localization in the median plane - seems t

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-27 Thread Stefan Schreiber
From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] on behalf of Jörn Nettingsmeier [netti...@stackingdwarves.net] Sent: 26 January 2016 22:52 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural I think the 8 impulses are used dif

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-27 Thread Fons Adriaensen
On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 01:27:59PM +, Politis Archontis wrote: > Something that has worked well for me is to replace the > (unmeasurable) low frequency HRTF with the response of a > spherical head model, ... The LF part can be even be formed directly from W and a first order highpass filtere

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-27 Thread Marc Lavallée
Free documents from Rozenn Nicol: https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-01066312/ http://www.sga-ssa.ch/docs/events/120510_ssa_printemps2012_01-nicol.pdf Le Wed, 27 Jan 2016 13:47:21 +0100, Jörn Nettingsmeier a écrit : > On 01/27/2016 10:02 AM, florian.came...@orf.at wrote: > > Hello, > > > > m

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-27 Thread Politis Archontis
Hi Fons, these are great points you raise here! On 27 Jan 2016, at 00:13, Fons Adriaensen mailto:f...@linuxaudio.org>> wrote: I've been reading this thread with much interest, as it is exactly about the topic I've been working on for the last two months. * Most HRIR sets have an LF response

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-27 Thread Jörn Nettingsmeier
On 01/26/2016 11:05 PM, Politis Archontis wrote: Hi Jorn, yes that is correct. I think however that the virtual loudspeaker stage is unnecessary. It is equivalent if you expand the left and right HRTFs into spherical harmonics and multiply their coefficients (in the frequency domain) directly wi

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-27 Thread Jörn Nettingsmeier
On 01/27/2016 10:02 AM, florian.came...@orf.at wrote: Hello, may I point you to the AES Monograph on Binaural Technology by Rozenn Nicol, published on 2010. Rozenn has nicely summarised most of the issues which have been discussed here lately, and she provides an extensive list of references (m

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-27 Thread Politis Archontis
HI, yes there are multiple works from many reearchers on spherical harmonic expansion of HRTFs (Evans, Duraiswami, Dylan Menzies and others), Rozenn Nicol’s is a very thorough one, and the last (probably) on the list are two nice papers from Romigh and Brungart in IEEE’s Journal of Selected Top

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-27 Thread Bo-Erik Sandholm
As Fons have done optimisations in the low frequency range up to a few hundred hertz resulting resulting in shorter HRIRs. Any comment on the possibility of ignoring the individual impact is of ear shape above 4kHz in a HRTF? Would that not also simplify coding to binaural? Or at least simplifying

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-27 Thread florian.camerer
Hello, may I point you to the AES Monograph on Binaural Technology by Rozenn Nicol, published on 2010. Rozenn has nicely summarised most of the issues which have been discussed here lately, and she provides an extensive list of references (more than 200!). Well worth reading (35$ for AES members

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-26 Thread Dave Malham
A student, Mike (?) Evans, of colleagues of mine from the Department of Electronics at York did some work on a spherical harmonic representation of HRTF's back in the 1990's. I haven't got the paper handy but I seem to remember he ended up concluding you'd need something like 15'th order to get the

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-26 Thread Politis Archontis
Hi Fons, I think I see your point, but I still believe they are equivalent in any case? In the end by having a lower-order sound field recording (eg B-format), than the expansion order of the HRTFs at some frequency, the spatial product is going to be limited by the sound-field order. If there

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-26 Thread Fons Adriaensen
On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 10:05:07PM +, Politis Archontis wrote: > yes that is correct. I think however that the virtual loudspeaker > stage is unnecessary. It is equivalent if you expand the left and > right HRTFs into spherical harmonics ... True, but the problem with this is that it requires

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-26 Thread Fons Adriaensen
On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 09:52:21PM +0100, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote: > On 01/26/2016 06:36 PM, Stefan Schreiber wrote: > > >2. < 8 > impulses (for 4 virtual speakers) implies that you don't > >support 3D decoders (?). If not, why this? (Immersive/3D audio is on the > >requirement list for VR. It w

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-26 Thread Politis Archontis
s.net] Sent: 26 January 2016 22:52 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural I think the 8 impulses are used differently. I'm scared of trying to explain something of which my own understanding is somewhat hazy, but he

Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-26 Thread Joseph Anderson
Hello Jörn, On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 12:52 PM, Jörn Nettingsmeier < netti...@stackingdwarves.net> wrote: > > Of course, that does not take into account dual-band decoding. But if we > express the cross-over filters as another convolution and split the > decoding matrix into a hf and lf part, we ca

[Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural

2016-01-26 Thread Jörn Nettingsmeier
On 01/26/2016 06:36 PM, Stefan Schreiber wrote: 2. < 8 > impulses (for 4 virtual speakers) implies that you don't support 3D decoders (?). If not, why this? (Immersive/3D audio is on the requirement list for VR. It wouldn't make a lot of sense if all sound sources will follow your gaze - looking