RE:
#1. Actually Spacewar was the first computer game...and it was an action game. But
yes, computer adventure came before computer RPG. I'm not sure that is of any
significance; however, since several other genres (besides action and strategy) also
came after Adventure.
#2. Fantasy is not
> Too many classifications and you fall into the trap of gamedex.com. They
have
> over 200 categories, which makes their classification system ludicrous.
Just
> one look:
>
> Action Advenuture
> Cartoonish Action Adventure
> Fantasy Action Adventure
> Sci-fi Action Adventure
> Horror Action Advent
Jim Leonard schrieb:
>
> The party aspect is indeed a strong element of RPGs. I neglected to say this
> in our RPG genre description, so I'll add it now. I won't limit RPGs to
> party-based games, but it should indeed be noted that *most* RPGs are
> party-based. See, discussion does bring about
I have a question: why do I get these messages twice? ;)
Also, when is MobyGames going to add the Apple II category?
- John
> -Original Message-
> From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 5:27 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [SWColle
Hugh and Edward:
You've presented some strong arguments and I'm going to have to think about
them before coming up with a rebuttal. But first let me pose some situations
and questions:
1. Adventure was the first computer game, yes? It was not an RPG. So
computer adventure games came before com
On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 02:35 PM, Jim Leonard wrote:
Edward Franks wrote:
[Snip]
I completely disagree. All RPGs are adventures, but not all
adventures are
RPGs; because of this, RPG is a subgenre in our system. Before you
debate
further, here is our definition of Adventure (a m
I found one flaw right here:
"Since there is no such thing as an RPG that isn't also an adventure, or strategy, or
action game, RPG becomes a sub-genre instead of a main one."
There are certainly RPGs that aren't adventure (or other genre) games. Two off the
top of my head are Telengard and R
Marco Thorek wrote:
>
> But I don't agree with Jim on making RPGs a subgenre. There are two
> strong indications for having a RPG at hand: character development and a
> party.
The party aspect is indeed a strong element of RPGs. I neglected to say this
in our RPG genre description, so I'll add i
Marco Thorek wrote:
>
> Well, according to Moby it belongs to six genres.
Two main, four sub. Sorry if that's not obvious in our presentation; I should
probably mention to Brian that our main genres should be highlighted
differently.
> I thought about a game
> belonging to one genre, like in t
Edward Franks wrote:
>
> The problem is that you can easily swap in role-playing games as a
> basic building block in place of Adventure. The same justifications
> work for either. The two are so close together (more than any of the
> other categories) that it is hard sometimes to see th
Yech, it seems like Gamedex is confusing genre with plot.
Jim Leonard wrote:
>
> Karl Kuras wrote:
> >
> > > To remain in the Interaction Fiction with Graphics subgenre, verb-noun
> > input
> > > using text labels must be maintained. If the verbs (actions) and nouns
> > > (items) are replaced by
Karl Kuras wrote:
>
> > To remain in the Interaction Fiction with Graphics subgenre, verb-noun
> input
> > using text labels must be maintained. If the verbs (actions) and nouns
> > (items) are replaced by icons or pictures, or accepts verb-only or
> noun-only
> > input, it no longer qualfies as
Karl Kuras wrote:
>
> > Adventures progress through decision, not action. Since you can't
> > significantly change Mafia's story or outcomes based on your decisions,
> it's
> > not an adventure game. People confuse this a lot; they think that great
> > storytelling equals "adventure game", which
Edward Franks schrieb:
>
>
> The problem is that you can easily swap in role-playing games as a
> basic building block in place of Adventure. The same justifications
> work for either. The two are so close together (more than any of the
> other categories) that it is hard sometimes to s
Edward Franks wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 10:43 AM, Jim Leonard wrote:
> [Snip]
> > Adventures progress through decision, not action. Since you can't
> > significantly change Mafia's story or outcomes based on your
> > decisions, it's
> > not an adventure game. People confuse
On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 01:02 PM, Jim Leonard wrote:
[Snip]
Most people don't have a problem with the way MobyGames defines a
genre, but
some people have a problem with the Main genres (Action, Adventure,
Educational, Racing / Driving, Simulation, Sports, Strategy). Every
month we
Karl Kuras wrote:
>
> > At its most basic, Adventure + Action, subgenres Cyberpunk, Dark Sci-Fi.
>
> Come on... simply calling it Action Adventure ignores the Character
> development aspects
Sorry, I may have forgotten to add subgenre Role-Playing, which should be
there.
> of the game and simp
Pedro Quaresma wrote:
>
> Jim Leonard wrote:
> >Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres haven't blurred; people's minds
> >have. Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult.
>
> Jagged Alliance, Birthright.
> Wait, want really difficult ones? OK then: Europa 1400 The Guild, King of
> Dragon P
"Pedro Sez..."
As a sidenote on interfaces, I believe Ultima 6 was the first game to have both an
>icon-based interface _and_ also an "initial based" one ('O' for open, 'C' for cast,
>etc). I think most people, even those who were not used to the previous game, barely
>used the icons.<
Edward Franks wrote:
>
> From a game developer's viewpoint, when or what things made the IBM PC
> the platform of choice over the Apple IIs, C64s, etc.? I know that on
> the business side of programming the common wisdom is that 640K RAM was
> the key (VisiCalc vs. Lotus 1-2-3). Was it th
> To remain in the Interaction Fiction with Graphics subgenre, verb-noun
input
> using text labels must be maintained. If the verbs (actions) and nouns
> (items) are replaced by icons or pictures, or accepts verb-only or
noun-only
> input, it no longer qualfies as Interactive Fiction."
This defin
Pedro Quaresma wrote:
>
> Clever and engaging storylines, agreed (up to a certain period), but awful
> interface? I admit the first version of the SCUMM system (Zak Mcracken,
> Maniac Mansion) was poor, but the one used on the Monkeys and DoTT is, IMHO,
> in the very least pretty decent. And so wa
Karl Kuras wrote:
>
> > Yes, but since those games are just Sierra-style games with verbs and
> nouns
> > you can pick from a list, it's still a derivative from IF (except this
> time
> > the parser forces a limited subset of words you can choose from, in a very
> > specific two-word combo). The
On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 10:43 AM, Jim Leonard wrote:
[Snip]
Adventures progress through decision, not action. Since you can't
significantly change Mafia's story or outcomes based on your
decisions, it's
not an adventure game. People confuse this a lot; they think that
great
storyt
On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 10:09 AM, Jim Leonard wrote:
[Snip]
At its most basic, Adventure + Action, subgenres Cyberpunk, Dark
Sci-Fi.
There are strategy elements but they are not overwhelming. Moby has
it as:
http://www.mobygames.com/game/sheet/gameId,681/ and if you check the
genr
> Adventures progress through decision, not action. Since you can't
> significantly change Mafia's story or outcomes based on your decisions,
it's
> not an adventure game. People confuse this a lot; they think that great
> storytelling equals "adventure game", which is incorrect. Half-Life had
>
On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 06:48 PM, Marco Thorek wrote:
[Snip]
Beside documenting pretty much ignorance from people who publish
articles, this also shows that there still is no public appreciation
for
the roots of computer gaming, not even among those who like to play
games. Old movies a
Karl Kuras wrote:
>
> > Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres haven't blurred; people's minds
> > have. Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult.
>
> I'll give this dare a try... how about Mafia?
> I mean, it's a driving game, a shooter, and some would say an adventure.
Adventures progr
Marco Thorek wrote:
>
> Jim Leonard schrieb:
> >
> > > It seems to me, the farther we move into the present, the harder it is
> > > to classify a game. Some genres have blurred beyond recognition.
> >
> > Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres haven't blurred; people's minds
> > have. Go ahea
> At its most basic, Adventure + Action, subgenres Cyberpunk, Dark Sci-Fi.
Come on... simply calling it Action Adventure ignores the Character
development aspects of the game and simply labeling a game where shooting
occurs as Action would lump Space Invaders, Doom and Tomb Raider into the
same ca
Jim Leonard schrieb:
>
> >
> > System Shock? Taking into account all the combinations of the
> > difficulty levels? :-D
>
> At its most basic, Adventure + Action, subgenres Cyberpunk, Dark Sci-Fi.
> There are strategy elements but they are not overwhelming. Moby has it as:
> http://www
Edward Franks wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 09:29 AM, Jim Leonard wrote:
> [Snip]
> >> It seems to me, the farther we move into the present, the harder it is
> >> to classify a game. Some genres have blurred beyond recognition.
> >
> > Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres ha
On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 03:01 AM, John Romero wrote:
[Snip]
The Apple II version of King's Quest was one of the early
double-resolution 16-color games and subsequent Sierra adventures used
that graphics mode. Double-res on the Apple II was 160x192 with 16
colors. Mixed-mode graphics o
Jim Leonard wrote:
>Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres haven't blurred; people's minds
>have. Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult.
Jagged Alliance, Birthright.
Wait, want really difficult ones? OK then: Europa 1400 The Guild, King of Dragon Pass :)
--
Pedro R. Quaresma
Salvado
Jim Leonard wrote:
>What made Lucasarts games worth playing,
>thankfully, were the clever and engaging storylines and puzzles, which were
>good enough to force people through the awful interface.
Clever and engaging storylines, agreed (up to a certain period), but awful interface? I admit the fir
> Yes, but since those games are just Sierra-style games with verbs and
nouns
> you can pick from a list, it's still a derivative from IF (except this
time
> the parser forces a limited subset of words you can choose from, in a very
> specific two-word combo). The "pick words from a list"-style ad
Jim Leonard schrieb:
>
> > It seems to me, the farther we move into the present, the harder it is
> > to classify a game. Some genres have blurred beyond recognition.
>
> Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres haven't blurred; people's minds
> have. Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult
> Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres haven't blurred; people's minds
> have. Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult.
I'll give this dare a try... how about Mafia?
I mean, it's a driving game, a shooter, and some would say an adventure.
Karl Kuras
--
On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 09:29 AM, Jim Leonard wrote:
[Snip]
It seems to me, the farther we move into the present, the harder it is
to classify a game. Some genres have blurred beyond recognition.
Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres haven't blurred; people's
minds
have. Go a
Karl Kuras wrote:
>
> > Jim Leonard schrieb:
> > >
> > > At MobyGames we go over this every so often; people keep wanting to
> somehow
> > > *define* the words "adventure game" to mean "Sierra games" (the Quest
> games,
> > > etc.)
>
> I always called that type of game a Graphic Adventure, mainly
Marco Thorek wrote:
>
> > Others want to actually create a new genre specifically for
> > "Sierra-like games". As official taxonomer for MobyGames, they will forever
> > remain in our system as what they really are: Interactive Fiction with
> > Graphics. This puts them in the same category as M
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