Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Edgar, quoting: Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. That is a specious remark. Consider, instead, that it all depends on ...Humans. NOT The World! Wittgenstein -- for what he's worth -- asserts and reminds us in his TRACTATUS, that: The World is all that is the case. (but

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Bill!, Good distinction! And I thought *I* was the Philosopher. (well, I *was*. ;-) ) Well said, sir, Kudos, --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Edgar, No, 'usefulness' only means something gives you the results you want. ...Bill! Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill,

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Chris, Bill!, Edgar, Group, Math is Trivial. That's what makes it Math. It is not Physics. Math cannot and does not say why it so accurately appears to model the World (for Humans, anyway; Dolphins may have another view). Trivial means making no statement about reality. Ask any

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Edgar, Communicates? No. Math merely insinuates (to you). *If* you are game! You've got to be a willing, or innocent, conspirator. I suspect you're both. It's all up to you. And your delusions. Many people have them, so don't be offended. You're just one other one among too many.

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Joe, I'll try to explain it simply. In a reality which operates according to actual laws of nature usefulness means something actually works. To actually work it must in accord with the actual laws of reality.. Edgar On Jul 11, 2013, at 6:14 PM, Joe wrote: Edgar, quoting:

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Edgar, My helpful simple explanation runs as follows; please attend: Usefulness is a Human category. Does it go beyond that? No. To say so is to establish a Metaphysics. To establish a Metaphysics is not Utilitarian, nor Pragmatist. Instead, a Metaphysics is Human, and probably only

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Merle, Humans do sometimes use math to make bridges, but ants make bridges all the time and I don't think they ever use math to do so. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:    it is mathematics and it certainly does communicate..without

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

it's innate...they just know...  we do too.. except us folks deny our origins... born knowing in the razzlemattazle of life we forget our origins ..merle   Merle, Humans do sometimes use math to make bridges, but ants make bridges all the time and I don't think they ever use math to do so.

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Merle, Are you seriously implying that a spider uses math to build his web? It is your human intellect that judges the spider's web to be a work of mathematically-based architecture. You are anthropomorphizing and projecting your human delusions onto a the spider and the web. ...Bill! ---

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

 sorry i am not.. that is how us humans learn. how do you think the idea of a  aeroplane came into being...?  i think leonardo da vinci would have your argument  as wanting.. we learn from nature.. not the other way around merle   Merle, Are you seriously implying that a spider uses math to

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Merle, In your list of universal languages you forgot to mention Esperanto. ;) Seriously though, all the languages (modes of communication) you mentioned (math, art and music) are not 'universal'. You might be able to stretch them to 'human-wide', but I think it would stop there. You might

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

 bill..i disagree..mathematics, art and music... no i will not include esperanto..you have to learn that and an australian aboriginal would not have this opportunity...that's one example...  explain to me why maths  art and music are not universal languages..i might just include architecture as

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

All the formerly discarded peripheral vision; the AC turns on and the ventilation sings its shape through the drywall; the left hand has never felt so useless -- I am making progress; time to start over.Whoa, now I gotta pee... no choice but to get up or piss myself. Now I feel stupid for

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Merle, Math, art, music and architecture are not universal because they are products the human intellect, and the human intellect is not universal. If you fail to see my logic in this that's because logic also is not universal but is a product of the human intellect. If by realization and

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

PBS, This is our first stream-of-consciousness post in a long time! (Unless of course you count Merle's posts which sometimes come pretty close.) ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: All the formerly discarded peripheral vision; the AC turns on and the

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Bill, Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. Usefulness means it's in synch with the actual logic of the world of forms and thus IS accurately part of reality... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Bill! wrote: PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Edgar, No, 'usefulness' only means something gives you the results you want. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. Usefulness means it's in synch with the actual logic of the world of forms and

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Bill, Yes, that's what reality is! Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 6:59 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, No, 'usefulness' only means something gives you the results you want. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Usefulness is a criterion that

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Edgar, No, I don't think so. It's kind of like the discussion Merle and I were having about having a map and being lost. Something is only 'useful' if you have an intention, a purpose to fulfill, much like having destination. An example is a hammer is useful for pounding in a nail, but its

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

 bill. please clarify...i am suggesting universal and if one  looks hard and long and realises maths art music and now architecture are universal ..point to me where it is not?..merle   Merle, Math, art, music and architecture are not universal because they are products the human

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Merle, Math, music and architecture are not universal because these are all singularly human activities. There are other beings in the universe that are not human - like caterpillars. Like I said before, unless by 'universal' you mean 'common to all humans' these activities are not

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Bill, True, but everyone DOES have intentions and purposes. That's what real life is like in the REAL world of forms... Why, for God's sake, do you think there is something wrong with that or it isn't real? Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 8:26 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, No, I don't think so.

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

 bill..many things have duel purposes... what you believe and think may not be useful today will be  humans cannot do without without it scenario tomorrow... one must keep the door opened so to speak.. for you never know.. merle   Edgar, No, I don't think so. It's kind of like the discussion

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Merle, A funny Freudian slip. Are you DUELing with Bill? :-) Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 9:06 AM, Merle Lester wrote: bill..many things have duel purposes... what you believe and think may not be useful today will be humans cannot do without without it scenario tomorrow... one must

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

 disagree... caterpillars create an architectural wonder and emerge as butterflies... merle   Merle, Math, music and architecture are not universal because these are all singularly human activities. There are other beings in the universe that are not human - like caterpillars. Like I

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Edgar, FINALLY! A good really, really good question! It's so good I'll respond line-by-line: ...but everyone DOES have intentions and purposes. No, everyone does not. A Buddha does not. And becoming a Buddha (or more correctly stated, 'realizing Buddha Nature') is what zen practice is

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Merle, Maybe..but they're horrible at math and can't sing for shit...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  disagree... caterpillars create an architectural wonder and emerge as butterflies... merle   Merle, Math, music and architecture

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Bill, Total C..P! (censored in compliance with the new guidelines)... The person who wrote the poem CLEARLY has plenty of purpose in life. Like writing the poem, like eating so he has the energy to write the poem, and like coming in out of the rain back home... We can disagree about which

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

I have to share Bill's disagreement of math being a language or even being communicative. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 10:48 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com wrote: mathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle PBS, Math, logic, reason like all

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Chris, It's really dumb to say math doesn't communicate! Of course it does... Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 3:09 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: I have to share Bill's disagreement of math being a language or even being communicative. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 10:48 PM,

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

The experience of unity that is what I am trying to convey, not that effectively, is no more sharable than the experience of unity one may notice while taking a bath or washing the coffee mugs. Communicators may try to use math, but these uses are always matters of stories. Any ways, surely you

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

   it is mathematics and it certainly does communicate..without mathematics we would not have any bridges to cross rivers for example...merle   The experience of unity that is what I am trying to convey, not that effectively, is no more sharable than the experience of unity one may notice

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

 this is your opinion bill.. a delusional mind at work... let's try a spider's web's.. tell me they are not architectural mathematical wonders... merle     Merle, Maybe..but they're horrible at math and can't sing for shit...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@...

[Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

...Bill!

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause.

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

   i say one and one makes 3...merle   Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But,

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@...

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

PBS, I agree it's all in the present. We feel it, there. I'll make no projections about what may be, in the future, though, regarding karma surviving, etc. I just don't know. I have to be an agnostic about that, because it is honest to be agnostic. To be a believer seems to require that

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Neither should the reality it represents be mistaken for experience. Fuck zen, I'm hungry! On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To:

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

PBS, Then by all means, Just EAT! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: Neither should the reality it represents be mistaken for experience. Fuck zen, I'm hungry! On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@...

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

I AM ! On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 9:32 PM PBS, Then by all

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Chris, Except... that has nothing to do with awakening in Zen, which is having nothing. That's not just the experience of Wu, (mu), when one experiences it, but continues endlessly, until it's covered-up again eventually, which always happens. I think infinities and epsilons in math have

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

I wasn't talking about enlightenment however, was I? Thanks, --Chris ch...@austin-lane.net +1-301-270-6524 On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, Except... that has nothing to do with awakening in Zen, which is having nothing. That's not just the

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

Chris, Well, if you mention Zen, or set about to analogize it, it is only from the point of view of Zen Mind, or No Mind, that one has any inkling of what is meant by Zen. Otherwise, if one mentions Zen, anything goes, to the extent it goes anywhere accurately. I think the appreciations of

Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma

 mathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle   PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for