Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
> On Oct 15, 2018, at 5:36 AM, Rowan Worth wrote: > > Anyway my point is I'm not seeing evidence to support the assertion that > gmail treats messages to the list in general as spammish. Ditto. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 05:18, Warren Young wrote: > That event was the immediate spur to start this Fossil forum project, but > if you search the archives, there are multiple threads. Here’s one from > about a year ago: > > > http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Many-ML-emails-going-to-GMail-s-SPAM-td98685.html > > If you think that thread is about a Gmail-specific problem, you’ve > misunderstood it. The problem is happening because spam gets reflected off > this list, so people click “This is Spam” in Gmail, which causes Gmail’s > spam filters to treat all messages on the list as more spammish. The more > that happens, the less likely a given SQLite ML message is to get to a > Gmail user. > In my experience with gmail and this list, 99% of the mails dumped in the spam folder are from yahoo senders with gmail citing something along the lines of "the sender claims to be from yahoo.com but gmail could not verify this." I'm guessing this is related to DMARC/SPF or similar anti-spam mechanisms - a quick search suggests this is a common issue and nothing to do with mailing lists in particular. The remaining 1% feature senders from other domains, but otherwise look similar. I've never seen an actual spam sent via the mailing list, though about a year ago I did get a few spams in response to mails I sent to the list. Anyway my point is I'm not seeing evidence to support the assertion that gmail treats messages to the list in general as spammish. I'll keep a closer eye on what's ending up in spam, to double-check whether my "sender-identity" theory holds, or whether I'm picking up on a pattern which isn't really there. -Rowan ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 5:18 PM Warren Young wrote: > ... The problem is happening because spam gets reflected off this list, so > people click “This is Spam” in Gmail, which causes Gmail’s spam filters to > treat all messages on the list as more spammish. The more that happens, > the less likely a given SQLite ML message is to get to a Gmail user. > > That problem will affect any mail system with centralized spam detection. You can prevent this by creating a whitelist filter in your gmail account for sqlite-users mailing list address. Instructions here: https://www.lifewire.com/how-to-whitelist-a-sender-or-domain-in-gmail-1172106 > BTW, I generally prefer mailing-list. But forum has some advantages too. At the end of the day, I think, it would be best to have both options readily available as *interfaces* to the sqlite knowledge-base. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
>> On Oct 9, 2018, at 7:19 PM, Warren Young wrote: >> >> The arguments about mailing lists vs forums have all been had. > It’s not clear why this entire conversation is presented in such stark terms: LIST > *OR* FORUM. Puzzling. > > If this is all driven by DRH edict that “all things shall run on fossil” , then you > know what to do: list2forum + forum2list > > There is no problem, if you don’t dogmatically insist on making it one. Thank you. So far I have seen mostly only one insisted advocate for a forum with no comment seems from the actually owner of this list. If the owner wishes to transition to only a forum then please just state it and get on with it; your idea seems better though. Maybe then this thread will die. danap. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
> On Oct 9, 2018, at 7:19 PM, Warren Young wrote: > > The arguments about mailing lists vs forums have all been had. It’s not clear why this entire conversation is presented in such stark terms: LIST *OR* FORUM. Puzzling. If this is all driven by DRH edict that “all things shall run on fossil” , then you know what to do: list2forum + forum2list There is no problem, if you don’t dogmatically insist on making it one. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Oct 11, 2018, at 12:06 AM, Random Coder wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:45 PM Warren Young wrote: >> The salt is the project code combined with the user ID, not a secret >> per-user salt. Both of those values are publicly visible, but it does >> defeat rainbow table attacks, which is the main point of salting. > > This does not prevent new rainbow tables from being generated Since part of the salt is the user name, that requires a “rainbow table” per user, which means it isn’t much of a rainbow table at all. Basically, it devolves to a brute-force hash attack. > You're using a single iteration of the (technically insecure) hash > function to generate the password If you take the faux “rainbow table” approach — which again is really just brute force in this case — the known weaknesses in SHA-1 don’t matter. You still have to generate half of the SHA-1 possibilities on average to brute force one of these passwords. In [one experiment][1] a single large GPU generated SHA-1 hashes at a rate of 160 million per second. To generate 2^80 hashes (half the SHA-1 space) you’d need 4.6x10^39 seconds, or about 1.45x10^32 years. Current top-end GPUs are about twice as fast as the one used in that experiment, and you could rack a bunch of those up, but even a time reduction of 1000x doesn’t make the attack practical. Instead, you might try to take advantage of the SHA-1 weaknesses to generate a second preimage, which in this case amounts to a password that happens to work even though it isn’t actually the password known to the legitimate user. I have no idea how difficult that is, but it’s probably still awfully difficult. To pull that off, you need a copy of the user table, which is not synchronized down to clones unless you’re the Fossil “setup” user, who is all-powerful and doesn’t need to resort to such things to break into the repository in the first place. An attacker without such privileges would have to break into the server hosting the Fossil instance, at which point he wouldn’t *need* to break the password hash: he could just modify the user table directly! [1]: https://security.stackexchange.com/a/3450 > creating a rainbow table is much > less computationally hard than if a modern password hashing function > had been used. Okay, so replace the algorithm with N-thousand rounds of PBKDF2 and whatever hash algo you like. How does it practically change what I’ve said above? > I'd be curious if someone's taken the effort to setup hashcat with > your rule set What rules? As I said, Fossil currently has no restrictions on the password. Fossil assumes you will use good passwords for purely selfish reasons, and don’t need to be forced to do so. And again, hashcat is a silly way to attack Fossil. If you have access to the Fossil user table, you can just edit the database and insert whatever hash you like. Or, insert content directly into the block chain. Or add users with arbitrary permissions. Or... The primary attack the Fossil password system fends off is the remote one, which is gated by the maximum number of password tries allowed per second. I don’t know of any internal limits on this in Fossil, so it amounts to the maximum number of HTTP connections the host machine can process per second, which will be orders of magnitude lower than the hash rates above. If that still bothers you, put Fossil behind an HTTP proxy and set up fail2ban on the access log. With 5 passwords allowed per user per second, an 8 character random password takes decades to break. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Oct 11, 2018, at 12:26 AM, Darren Duncan wrote: > > On 2018-10-10 1:36 PM, Eric wrote: >> Too much overhead, how often must I clone ... > > This makes me think that it would be useful, if it doesn't already, for > Fossil to have something analogous to a database replication feature. That’s pretty much what Fossil *is*: a replicated database. Most of it happens to be blockchain structured, rather than relational table structured, but much of the table-structured data is also synchronized between a clone and its parent. Fossil forum content is just more of the same of what Fossil already stores, so it syncs down to a clone just the same as anything else you’ve got stored in Fossil. The only differences between a Fossil repository clone and its parent are some local-only settings and security-sensitive information such as the user table. If you clone as a sufficiently privileged user, you can even pull down the user table. This is useful when replicating Fossil across multiple sites for backup and site fail-over purposes. The SQLite and Fossil project repos are currently replicated across 3 different hosts in this way. > A bit like a mailing list but that the sender and client are both instances > of Fossil. Fossil allows you to open your local repository in a browser and insert content into the forum locally, then sync the content up to the remote repository. That requires a user capability that had not been given to my user on the fossil-scm.org/forum instance, last I checked. I assume that no one else but drh can do this at the moment on that instance. However, I’ve done it on one of my own Fossil repositories, just now: https://tangentsoft.com/mysqlpp/forumpost/f8b7fc2ca9 ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 16:00:02 -0600, Warren Young wrote: 8>< There comes a point in any written discussion where point-by-point answers become a risk to sanity. I think we are there. It seems that a Fossil forum will someday be able to behave like a mailing list. Good, but if the price is moderation for everything that comes in by email, then I won't be happy without seeing the moderation guidelines. I will still prefer mailing lists. In the post I am now answering you have told me several things I already know, and missed the point a couple of times. That is merely an observation, I can't claim to never miss the point. I contributed to Fossil in the early days, until Richard moved it out of GPL. I didn't object to that per se, but the then contributor agreement was something I could not sign. The current one is OK, but I'm doing too many other things now. > https://fossil-scm.org/forum/forumpost/ba1144bc9f Thanks for that link, I will read it properly. Eric -- ms fnd in a lbry ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
Darren Duncan wrote: > On 2018-10-10 10:51 AM, Chris Green wrote: > > Warren Young wrote: > >> Fossil forum email alerts include the full content of the message. > > That's great! Especially if the alert email subject includes the forum > thread > subject. > > That said, I consider it critical that these alert emails can also send my > own > posts in the forum and not just others. If they don't send for EVERY post, > the > emails aren't suitable for reading / backing up a thread in one place. > > > And can you then simply 'reply' from your E-Mail client? If not then > > it doesn't really help much. > > Actually it helps a lot. I think in practice most people using this forum > would > be reading a lot more than they post. So you can do your majority action of > reading in your email client with the forum alerts. In the rare situation > where > you want to reply, then you just switch over to the web forum. Yes, and there lies the rub, it's a window-swapping, mouse clicking hassle. If it was a mailing list I'd simply hit L[ist reply] and that would be it. -- Chris Green · ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Thursday, 11 October, 2018 00:22, Darren Duncan wrote: >On 2018-10-10 12:26 PM, Keith Medcalf wrote: >> And if you think that I am going to create YET ANOTHER LOGIN and >> YET ANOTHER PASSWORD just to use some crappy forum software, you have >> another think coming. > What do you think password managers are for? You mean the equivalent of sticky-notes on the monitor? Sorry, do not use them, ever. > Proper security means having a different password everywhere that uses > passwords, and one presumably already has dozens or more of those, > so if they use a password manager, the SQLite forum is just another > one it automatically handles. -- Darren Duncan There are only a very small number of passwords that are to useful things. Those are remembered and not written down or stored anywhere. There are a lot of "junk" passwords which are merely generated. Many of the latter have "stupid" rules, but even so if they are compromised, who gives a crap? Having a requirement to "change" or other idiotic composition rules automatically puts the password in the latter camp. So do you intend the forum password to be one of the former or one of the latter? --- The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On 2018-10-10 1:36 PM, Eric wrote: Too much overhead, how often must I clone ... This makes me think that it would be useful, if it doesn't already, for Fossil to have something analogous to a database replication feature. A bit like a mailing list but that the sender and client are both instances of Fossil. -- Darren Duncan ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On 2018-10-10 12:26 PM, Keith Medcalf wrote: And if you think that I am going to create YET ANOTHER LOGIN and YET ANOTHER PASSWORD just to use some crappy forum software, you have another think coming. What do you think password managers are for? Proper security means having a different password everywhere that uses passwords, and one presumably already has dozens or more of those, so if they use a password manager, the SQLite forum is just another one it automatically handles. -- Darren Duncan ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On 2018-10-10 10:51 AM, Chris Green wrote: Warren Young wrote: Fossil forum email alerts include the full content of the message. That's great! Especially if the alert email subject includes the forum thread subject. That said, I consider it critical that these alert emails can also send my own posts in the forum and not just others. If they don't send for EVERY post, the emails aren't suitable for reading / backing up a thread in one place. And can you then simply 'reply' from your E-Mail client? If not then it doesn't really help much. Actually it helps a lot. I think in practice most people using this forum would be reading a lot more than they post. So you can do your majority action of reading in your email client with the forum alerts. In the rare situation where you want to reply, then you just switch over to the web forum. (And assuming you then get a copy back in your email, so its like you wrote it with email.) -- Darren Duncan ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:45 PM Warren Young wrote: > Fossil currently has no restrictions on password length[1] or content. The > input text is simply salted, hashed, and inserted into the user table: > [...] > The salt is the project code combined with the user ID, not a secret per-user > salt. Both of those values are publicly visible, but it does defeat rainbow > table attacks, which is the main point of salting. This does not prevent new rainbow tables from being generated, and since: https://fossil-scm.org/fossil/file?udc=1=436-441=src%2Fsha1.c You're using a single iteration of the (technically insecure) hash function to generate the password, creating a rainbow table is much less computationally hard than if a modern password hashing function had been used. I'd be curious if someone's taken the effort to setup hashcat with your rule set and see how quickly it can brute force it's way to the plaintext. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Oct 10, 2018, at 2:42 PM, Keith Medcalf wrote: > > On Wednesday, 10 October, 2018 14:08, Warren Young wrote: > >> On Oct 10, 2018, at 1:26 PM, Keith Medcalf wrote: > >> The “security code” is just a CAPTCHA > > I hate captcha's and will not use them. They require permitting unrestricted > third-party code to execute on MY computer. Fossil CAPTCHAs do not run any code on your computer. It’s static HTML, with the CAPTCHA text generated by and validated on the server. I believe it is possible to use Fossil forums without JavaScript, though there are some other areas of the Fossil UI that will definitely break. The timeline page, the file browser, the WYSIWYG wiki editor, and the hamburger menu all rely on JavaScript to work. I ran NoScript for many years, but I gave that battle up as lost years ago. The “unrestricted” bit is an overreach besides. Browser JavaScript is highly restricted in what it can do. > Granted in this case it is not a third-party captcha that requires permitting > third-party code to execute, but that is likely just a happenstance of the > moment. I’m sure drh wrote the Fossil CAPTCHA system with full intent. It did not just happen. I don’t expect that code to be replaced until someone bothers to write a bot that interprets it. It wouldn’t be hard to do that, but since that code has been in use since 2009, even if this happened tomorrow, that CAPTCHA’s given us a pretty good return on the effort invested: https://fossil-scm.org/fossil/file?fn=src/captcha.c=trunk >> Contrast this mailing list, which *does* require that you create YET >> ANOTHER PASSWORD: > >> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users > > If you choose not to enter a password, one will be automatically generated > for you, and it will be sent to you once you've confirmed your subscription. > You can always request a mail-back of your password when you edit your > personal options. That’s pretty much how Fossil forums’ subscriber feature works. A password generation feature sounds like a fine idea for Fossil, too. Patches thoughtfully considered. As for password recovery, that’s already on the wish list. We have the technology to implement it within Fossil, we just need someone to choose to take the time to write it. > it is probably subject to all sorts of stupidity which prevents the use of > cryptographically generated passwords Fossil currently has no restrictions on password length[1] or content. The input text is simply salted, hashed, and inserted into the user table: https://fossil-scm.org/fossil/file?udc=1=385-395=src%2Fuser.c I’ve tested this in a local repository by setting user’s password to and successfully logging in with these passwords: 1. “a” 2. 63 random printable ASCII characters 3. 5 paragraphs of HTML-formatted Lorem Ipsum text The salt is the project code combined with the user ID, not a secret per-user salt. Both of those values are publicly visible, but it does defeat rainbow table attacks, which is the main point of salting. [1]: Okay, okay, there technically is a limit on length. Several, in fact: 1. If you’re setting the password via Fossil UI, I think you’ll hit the browser POST limit first. This is probably in the gigs for mainstream browsers on 64-bit hosts. 2. If you’re setting the password via “fossil user password”, the limit is the host OS’s getpass(3) limit, which is 128 bytes on the machine I’m typing this on. With ~6 bits of entropy per ASCII printable character, that exceeds the power of the hash function we use in the Fossil user table by about 600 bits. 3. Fossil’s Blob type, which receives the password. It uses an unsigned int to hold the size. It’s possible the code isn’t 64-bit clean, in which case it’s probably limited to 2^31-1 bytes or so. Otherwise, it’s the size of available virtual memory. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Oct 10, 2018, at 2:36 PM, Eric wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 11:10:24 -0600, Warren Young wrote: >> On Oct 10, 2018, at 10:39 AM, Eric wrote: >>> >>> * mailing lists come to me, I don't have to go and get them >> >> So do Fossil email alerts. > > Do they thread? They do in Apple Mail, which is the only thing I’ve tested it in. If Fossil email alerts aren’t threading properly in your mailer, let us know which one it is, so we can see what additional headers Fossil might need to send. Here’s the code that appends the In-Reply-To header when the message isn’t the first in a thread: https://fossil-scm.org/fossil/artifact?udc=1=2120-2123=e66cf827047a9b39 Incidentally, I invite Keith to switch that page into “blame” mode and look at the user name column before yelling about “some crappy forum software” again. > go elsewhere to reply. The plan is to finish the SMTP server implementation in Fossil, which will allow email submission, among other things. My understanding is that finishing the Fossil SMTP server is high on drh's to-do list, but I don’t suppose he’d be all that upset if someone else contributed the work. A good bit of the code is already in place, so you have a good starting point: https://fossil-scm.org/fossil/file?fn=src/smtp.c=trunk >> Fossil forum subscribers don't need a password ... > > OK, but one or two "forums" among many - I prefer to have a password > anyway. Fossil lets you do it either way, because Fossil makes a distinction between users and subscribers: https://fossil-scm.org/fossil/doc/trunk/www/alerts.md#uvs A subscriber-only user has no password, but also has no identity to the server other than the long hex subscriber code they can uniquely present to the server to adjust their subscription settings. They can read the forum and get alerts, but they can only post anonymously. If you want a named identity on the Fossil forum, you have to sign up as a user, and then you do need to manage a password. That’s probably a good thing, since users have more power in the repository. Users can be granted the ability to post without going through moderation, for example. >>> * mailing lists are easy to read selectively and/or skim read >> >> Yes, just like Fossil email alerts. > > I haven't seen an alert yet, unless it looks exactly like a normal > single-message email! If you have "To unsubscribe: https://fossil-scm.org/forum/unsubscribe” and other stuff in the footer of the email, that’s a Fossil alert email. If you aren’t getting those, visit https://fossil-scm.org/forum/subscribe If that doesn’t redirect you to /alerts, you aren’t subscribed to email alerts yet. >>> * I can keep my own (possibly selective) archive >> >> You can clone a Fossil forum repository > > Too much overhead, how often must I clone … You must clone only once per machine where you want the clone to exist. To automatically update that clone, add something like this to your user’s crontab: 42 2 * * * /usr/local/bin/fossil all sync That updates all Fossil repositories known to your local Fossil installation, based on values stored in a SQLite database that Fossil keeps in $HOME/.fossil. Since the SQLite source code is also managed by Fossil, you might want to have a clone of that repository as well anyway. The “fossil all sync” command will keep that up-to-date as well. >> As for selective archives, Fossil will let you delete content from a >> repository: > > Too tedious I agree, but then, I don’t see why I’d bother to weed my forum archives in the first place. I *want* a complete archive. In fact, I’m eagerly waiting for drh to get around to importing the past mailing list traffic into the forum, so I can stop going to mail-archive.com, etc. > it's local! So is a Fossil forum repo clone. Say $ fossil ui -R /path/to/fossil-forum.fossil to open the forum clone in your default web browser. The result will look an awful lot like what you see at https://fossil-scm.org/forum, because it’s running the same code, from a very nearly identical repository. The only differences in the public instance’s repository are a few categories of info purposely not synced with the clone: 1. The user table, for security and PII reasons. 2. Certain local-only settings, such as the ones involved in the email server configuration, so that each clone doesn’t try to send email alerts on each new forum post, too. Over time, a clone and the repo it cloned from can diverge in other ways. For example, changes to the skin aren’t automatically sync’d down, on purpose, since you may have local changes you want to keep. You can pull such changes down on demand with the “fossil conf pull” commands. You might therefore want to follow the “fossil all sync” command with a “fossil all conf pull all” command, if the local machine never has local-only configuration changes. > Unless I'm looking for the > solution to a problem, in which case
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 14:08:11 -0600, Warren Young wrote: 8>< > I think I can summarize the real objection to this plan quite simply: > nobody likes to have their cheese moved. But cheese moves nevertheless. Cheese does not move, it gets moved. Even in the face of reasoned arguments. You have chosen to write an answer to everything, but they obviously do not all convince all of us. Based on what others have said, the SQLite list may lose some worthwhile contributors (not trying to include myself in that category). But then it doesn't matter if you marginalise only a small number of people. Eric -- ms fnd in a lbry ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Wednesday, 10 October, 2018 14:08, Warren Young wrote: >On Oct 10, 2018, at 1:26 PM, Keith Medcalf >wrote: >> there is also absolutely no way to perform "positive identity >checks" on a web page post that cannot be equally trivially >falsified. >You’re conflating physical identity with forum identity. >I don’t care whether you have state-approved documentation proving >that your name is Keith Medcalf. What I care to prevent is some >spammer sending messages to the forum or to members of the forum >directly, in your name, just because he happens to know your email >address, which is trivially obtained. But they cannot do that anyway. That is because e-mail coming from me must be contained within an envelope which properly authenticates. If the "inside contents" of the envelope purport to come from me but those contents are contained in an envelope which did not come from me, then your assumption of the validity of the contents of the envelope is your own assinine stupid assumption. Again, you should learn how to authenticate mail (whether the old fashioned paper in an envelope variety or the new electronic body in an electronic envelope variety). That you do not know how to do this is not really my problem. >> And if you think that I am going to create YET ANOTHER LOGIN and >YET ANOTHER PASSWORD just to use some crappy forum software, you have >another think coming. >Once again, Fossil forums don’t require that you create a login and >password: >https://fossil-scm.org/forum/subscribe >You fill out that form, hit Submit, and click the link in the >validation email. No password anywhere. >The “security code” is just a CAPTCHA, and proves that you can read >the ASCII hex code below the form, which so far is a pretty good test >for being a human, rather than a bot. I hate captcha's and will not use them. They require permitting unrestricted third-party code to execute on MY computer. This I do not permit. Granted in this case it is not a third-party captcha that requires permitting third-party code to execute, but that is likely just a happenstance of the moment. >Contrast this mailing list, which *does* require that you create YET >ANOTHER PASSWORD: > http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users If you choose not to enter a password, one will be automatically generated for you, and it will be sent to you once you've confirmed your subscription. You can always request a mail-back of your password when you edit your personal options. Doesn't sound like a password I have to (a) use or (b) remember. I have very few passwords. There are many cryptographically generated ones that I do not care about. On the other hand, if one wants to post to your "forum" other than anonymously, one must create a userid and password, remember that password, and it is probably subject to all sorts of stupidity which prevents the use of cryptographically generated passwords (such as requirements to change the password, restrictions on password length and content, etc). I am not interested in doing that. There are very VERY few instances in which I am interested in doing that. >I think I can summarize the real objection to this plan quite simply: >nobody likes to have their cheese moved. But cheese moves >nevertheless. --- The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume. >___ >sqlite-users mailing list >sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org >http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 11:10:24 -0600, Warren Young wrote: > On Oct 10, 2018, at 10:39 AM, Eric wrote: >> >> * mailing lists come to me, I don't have to go and get them > > So do Fossil email alerts. Do they thread? Anyway I have to go and get context, and go elsewhere to reply. >> * mailing lists all work the same > > No, they don't. There are many different mailing list managers, each > with different subscription methods, unsubscription methods, password > requirements, commands, etc. On top of that, the popular mailing list > managers are highly configurable, so you can't even say that all GNU > Mailman mailing lists work the same. None of which matters on a day-to-day basis - you read emails and you answer them. >> no multiple forum URLs > â¦but multiple mailing list manager URLs instead. See previous answer. >> passwords > > Fossil forum subscribers don't need a password ... OK, but one or two "forums" among many - I prefer to have a password anyway. >> * context usually exists within each email, no need to jump around the >> interface > > When was the last time you used a mail client without threading? > Mail messages are *rarely* entirely self-contained. Depends on what you mean by "entirely". If you can tell what the first sentence is actually talking about, that's often enough context. "Entirely" is not necessary. > And when they are, it's usually because you're looking at some > monstrosity perpetrated by those who like untrimmed top-posting, so that > every past message is listed below the new content, in reverse order. I spent too many hours of my working life reading those, but they're not really relevant here. >> * mailing lists are easy to read selectively and/or skim read > > Yes, just like Fossil email alerts. I haven't seen an alert yet, unless it looks exactly like a normal single-message email! >> * I can keep my own (possibly selective) archive > > You can clone a Fossil forum repository, if the forum's administrator > allows it. The fossil-scm.org/forum allows it, so presumably the future > sqlite.org/forum will as well. Too much overhead, how often must I clone ... > As for selective archives, Fossil will let you delete content from a > repository: > > https://fossil-scm.org/fossil/doc/trunk/www/shunning.wiki > > This includes forum posts. Too tedious, and also seems like misuse of a feature, in which case it is the potential start of a slippery slope. > What non-accidental differences do you have in your local SQLite mailing > list archive as compared to those on the public mailing list archive > services? Only that mine starts when I first subscribed to the list, and is partial if I wanted it that way. And it's local! > This line of argument also ignores the opposite virtue: with Fossil > forums, it is easy to get a complete archive of past discussions without > having been a subscriber since the beginning. If I want something from outside the time when I was subscribed, I will have to go looking, but this is pretty rare. Unless I'm looking for the solution to a problem, in which case I will do a web search. > Even if you do happen to be on mailing lists from the start, are your > local mail backups complete? I'm pretty sure I've lost old mailing > list archives in moves from one client to another. That can't happen > with Fossil, due to the durability of its block chain technology. Unless you lose the whole thing :-) I have an older archive (always partial) which is a set of mbox files, and a newer one (always complete) which is a maildir, and they go back a long time. They are always backed up and independent of whatever mail reader I happen to be using at the moment. >> searchable across all lists > > Do you often find yourself unable to remember where you posted something, > and thus wouldn't know which forum to search for a given post, and thus > must search all of them? > > It's happened to me, but only very rarely. Usually I end up doing an > Internet search for my own name and relevant keywords, which would also > turn up Fossil forums content. There are overlapping "forums", and OT threads, so it happens fairly often, and anyway I have only one search interface for each of my archives, each of which covers multiple "forums". >> I never get around to looking at most of the >> forums, partly, of course, because there isn't time. > > It's no faster to open a mail client than it is to open a folder full > of forum bookmarks and scan their contents. Yes it is, it's always open. And no need to dig for the password or struggle with how the particular interface works. > Fossil forums are especially nice in this regard, since there is currently > no subforum feature, so you don't have to go digging through them > to find out what's new. The forum's front page lists new posts in > newest-first order, with the unread posts in a brighter hyperlink color. "Currently"? You don't want subforums, there's a good search, and it might
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Oct 10, 2018, at 1:26 PM, Keith Medcalf wrote: > > there is also absolutely no way to perform "positive identity checks" on a > web page post that cannot be equally trivially falsified. You’re conflating physical identity with forum identity. I don’t care whether you have state-approved documentation proving that your name is Keith Medcalf. What I care to prevent is some spammer sending messages to the forum or to members of the forum directly, in your name, just because he happens to know your email address, which is trivially obtained. > And if you think that I am going to create YET ANOTHER LOGIN and YET ANOTHER > PASSWORD just to use some crappy forum software, you have another think > coming. Once again, Fossil forums don’t require that you create a login and password: https://fossil-scm.org/forum/subscribe You fill out that form, hit Submit, and click the link in the validation email. No password anywhere. The “security code” is just a CAPTCHA, and proves that you can read the ASCII hex code below the form, which so far is a pretty good test for being a human, rather than a bot. Contrast this mailing list, which *does* require that you create YET ANOTHER PASSWORD: http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users I think I can summarize the real objection to this plan quite simply: nobody likes to have their cheese moved. But cheese moves nevertheless. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Wednesday, 10 October, 2018 12:31, Warren Young wrote: >On Oct 10, 2018, at 11:51 AM, Chris Green wrote: >> Warren Young wrote: >>> Fossil forum email alerts include the full content of the message. >> And can you then simply 'reply' from your E-Mail client? If not >> then it doesn't really help much. >I already addressed that up-thread. The next version of Fossil is >likely to include a fully-capable SMTP server, which among other >things will allow email submissions, in principle at least. I have >no idea if drh intends to actually write code to allow that. >I opined up-thread that such submissions will be subject to >moderation, unconditionally, due to the ease with which From >addresses can be forged via email. Contrast Fossil forums, where >positive identity checks are made before accepting a new post from >someone. There is almost no difference between authentication of e-mail and the authentication of snail-mail. Generally one will find that the *same* people have trouble authenticating both snail-mail and e-mail, and for exactly the same reason -- they have no idea what it is that they are doing. These people generally have HTML enabled and do stupid things like "Ooooh, the pretty pictures look nice, so it must be authentic". This is not an issue inherent in e-mail but rather an issue inherent in the inability of the "authenticators" to have any idea of what it is that they are doing. (They also authenticate snail-mail by judging the prettyness of the pictures). In other words, the same triviality applies to all manner of falisification and in ALL CASES the proof-of-veracity is the same. Most people simply cannot be bothered to authenticate e-mail (nor snail-mail either) and blame this on the medium rather than on their own stupidity and lazyness. Furthermore, there is also absolutely no way to perform "positive identity checks" on a web page post that cannot be equally trivially falsified. And if you think that I am going to create YET ANOTHER LOGIN and YET ANOTHER PASSWORD just to use some crappy forum software, you have another think coming. --- The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
> On Oct 10, 2018, at 8:31 PM, Warren Young wrote: > > addresses can be *forged* forged fɔːdʒd/ adjective • copied fraudulently; fake. O no! :( Perhaps the time has come for you to learn the gory details of that so-called 'Simple Mail Transfer Protocol'! :) Simple, but mighty. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
> On Oct 10, 2018, at 8:31 PM, Warren Young wrote: > > The next version of Fossil is likely to include a fully-capable SMTP server Zawinski's Law at work! :D “Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can.” http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/Z/Zawinskis-Law.html ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Oct 10, 2018, at 11:51 AM, Chris Green wrote: > > Warren Young wrote: >> Fossil forum email alerts include the full content of the message. > > And can you then simply 'reply' from your E-Mail client? If not then > it doesn't really help much. I already addressed that up-thread. The next version of Fossil is likely to include a fully-capable SMTP server, which among other things will allow email submissions, in principle at least. I have no idea if drh intends to actually write code to allow that. I opined up-thread that such submissions will be subject to moderation, unconditionally, due to the ease with which From addresses can be forged via email. Contrast Fossil forums, where positive identity checks are made before accepting a new post from someone. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
Warren Young wrote: > On Oct 10, 2018, at 11:23 AM, Tim Streater wrote: > > > > On 10 Oct 2018, at 18:10, Warren Young wrote: > > > >> On Oct 10, 2018, at 10:39 AM, Eric wrote: > >>> > >>> * mailing lists come to me, I don't have to go and get them > >> > >> So do Fossil email alerts. > > > > So there's an unecessary email I've just received telling me to go to the > > forum. > > Fossil forum email alerts include the full content of the message. And can you then simply 'reply' from your E-Mail client? If not then it doesn't really help much. -- Chris Green · ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
> On Oct 10, 2018, at 6:02 PM, Warren Young wrote: > > I’ve written up a long list of advantages to the Fossil forum feature here: Quixotic, but your dedication has to be applauded. Could we agree to disagree though? Or is it a case of "somebody is wrong on the internet”? https://xkcd.com/386/ ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Oct 10, 2018, at 11:23 AM, Tim Streater wrote: > > On 10 Oct 2018, at 18:10, Warren Young wrote: > >> On Oct 10, 2018, at 10:39 AM, Eric wrote: >>> >>> * mailing lists come to me, I don't have to go and get them >> >> So do Fossil email alerts. > > So there's an unecessary email I've just received telling me to go to the > forum. Fossil forum email alerts include the full content of the message. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On 10 Oct 2018, at 18:10, Warren Young wrote: > On Oct 10, 2018, at 10:39 AM, Eric wrote: >> >> * mailing lists come to me, I don't have to go and get them > > So do Fossil email alerts. So there's an unecessary email I've just received telling me to go to the forum. I hate emails like that. >> * mailing lists all work the same > > No, they don’t. > > There are many different mailing list managers, each with different > subscription methods, unsubscription methods, password requirements, commands, > etc. They work well enough the same. > On top of that, the popular mailing list managers are highly configurable, so > you can’t even say that all GNU Mailman mailing lists work the same. > >> no multiple forum URLs > > …but multiple mailing list manager URLs instead. But I hardly ever visit these, once I'm subscribed. > When was the last time you used a mail client without threading? Mail > messages are *rarely* entirely self-contained. All the time, actually, and I hate clients which thread for me. So I didn't implement that in my email client, (although I generate the headers so others can do it). If I want to see all sqlite emails together, I filter them into a mailbox. If for some reason I wanted the mails chunked together by thread, I can sort the mailbox by subject line. > It’s no faster to open a mail client than it is to open a folder full of forum > bookmarks and scan their contents. > > Fossil forums are especially nice in this regard, since there is currently no > subforum feature, so you don’t have to go digging through them to find out > what’s new. The forum’s front page lists new posts in newest-first order, Ah, top-posted, eh? Bottom line: leave this list as it is. -- Cheers -- Tim ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Oct 10, 2018, at 10:39 AM, Eric wrote: > > * mailing lists come to me, I don't have to go and get them So do Fossil email alerts. > * mailing lists all work the same No, they don’t. There are many different mailing list managers, each with different subscription methods, unsubscription methods, password requirements, commands, etc. On top of that, the popular mailing list managers are highly configurable, so you can’t even say that all GNU Mailman mailing lists work the same. > no multiple forum URLs …but multiple mailing list manager URLs instead. > passwords Fossil forum subscribers don’t need a password. Visit https://fossil-scm.org/forum/subscribe to see this. For the explanation of how you can be uniquely identified without requiring a password, see this section of the Fossil email alerts document: https://fossil-scm.org/fossil/doc/trunk/www/alerts.md#password > * context usually exists within each email, no need to jump around the > interface When was the last time you used a mail client without threading? Mail messages are *rarely* entirely self-contained. And when they are, it’s usually because you’re looking at some monstrosity perpetrated by those who like untrimmed top-posting, so that every past message is listed below the new content, in reverse order. > * mailing lists are easy to read selectively and/or skim read Yes, just like Fossil email alerts. > * I can keep my own (possibly selective) archive You can clone a Fossil forum repository, if the forum’s administrator allows it. The fossil-scm.org/forum allows it, so presumably the future sqlite.org/forum will as well. As for selective archives, Fossil will let you delete content from a repository: https://fossil-scm.org/fossil/doc/trunk/www/shunning.wiki This includes forum posts. What non-accidental differences do you have in your local SQLite mailing list archive as compared to those on the public mailing list archive services? This line of argument also ignores the opposite virtue: with Fossil forums, it is easy to get a complete archive of past discussions without having been a subscriber since the beginning. Even if you do happen to be on mailing lists from the start, are your local mail backups complete? I’m pretty sure I’ve lost old mailing list archives in moves from one client to another. That can’t happen with Fossil, due to the durability of its block chain technology. > searchable across all lists Do you often find yourself unable to remember where you posted something, and thus wouldn’t know which forum to search for a given post, and thus must search all of them? It’s happened to me, but only very rarely. Usually I end up doing an Internet search for my own name and relevant keywords, which would also turn up Fossil forums content. > I never get around to looking at most of the > forums, partly, of course, because there isn't time. It’s no faster to open a mail client than it is to open a folder full of forum bookmarks and scan their contents. Fossil forums are especially nice in this regard, since there is currently no subforum feature, so you don’t have to go digging through them to find out what’s new. The forum’s front page lists new posts in newest-first order, with the unread posts in a brighter hyperlink color. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 22:48:37 +1100, "Gary R. Schmidt" wrote: > On 10/10/2018 22:20, Petite Abeille wrote: > > > [SNIP] > > ( Also, fwiw: please keep the mailing list, it's perfectly functional as > > is. ) > > > Seconded. > > It isn't broken, so please don't try and fix it. That, and * mailing lists come to me, I don't have to go and get them * mailing lists all work the same, no multiple forum URLs, passwords, user interfaces * context usually exists within each email, no need to jump around the interface * mailing lists are easy to read selectively and/or skim read * I can keep my own (possibly selective) archive, searchable across all lists I have (at the moment) 18 mailing lists and I don't know how many forum memberships. I have a shortcut list which may or may not include all the latter memberships, and a similarly incomplete list of passwords. With a couple of exceptions I never get around to looking at most of the forums, partly, of course, because there isn't time. Spam is a problem, but I see almost none anywhere (swallowed by my email provider, but I can and do check for false positives - almost none for months now). I have a feeling (unprovable) that most people creating spam "solutions" are solving the wrong problems, and I believe that the solution of dropping the use of mailing lists or email generally is a severe case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I've said most of this before in various places at various times, but this seems like a good time to say it all at once. Eric -- ms fnd in a lbry ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Oct 10, 2018, at 9:09 AM, Eric wrote: > > I don't think that "all been had" applies. Pedantically speaking, yes, you’re right, every possible argument has not been had on this mailing list yet. In order to avoid an “infinite monkeys” argument, let’s make it concrete: what substantial new take on this argument would you like to offer or see discussed? Here’s some new data: the Fossil users’ and developers’ mailing lists are still online, yet traffic to both has fallen to near-zero. There was some traffic on the user’s list for a while in previously-started threads, but other than that there were only two new threads started after the “This mailing list is now deprecated” thread: https://www.mail-archive.com/fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org/msg28049.html One of those new threads had to be on the mailing list because it was testing an ML-specific feature. The other new thread is now about 2 weeks old. We used to get roughly 10 posts per day to the Fossil mailing lists, on average. Meanwhile, the Fossil forums are quite busy, with roughly the same amount of traffic as was on the old mailing lists. So, how about this: when the SQLite forum comes online, what if this list continues to exist, and we see if the same thing happens? > What the forum doesn't allow is a subthread with a "was" subject, like > this one. Fossil forums offer something much better: internal hyperlinks. Here’s an example: https://fossil-scm.org/forum/forumpost/195da45e5f The code for that in the actual post is shorter: This thread picks up from [another](/forumpost/195da45e5f)... In addition to being shorter, it’s immune from being broken just because some third-party mailing list archive service goes out of business or changes its URL scheme. Newer technology affords better solutions. Another problem we don’t have on the forum are tedious arguments over top-posting vs inline quoting. I’ve written up a long list of advantages to the Fossil forum feature here: https://fossil-scm.org/fossil/doc/trunk/www/forum.wiki ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Tue, 9 Oct 2018 15:17:52 -0600, Warren Young wrote: > On Oct 9, 2018, at 1:56 PM, Eric wrote: > > > > I suppose I must be an "anti-forum type" even though I have never used > > Gmane, but it does rather sound as though you are applying a somewhat > > perjorative label here. > > I make no value judgement. If you are against web forums, then you > are anti-forum. That's just grammar. Well, OK, but "anything type" sounds to me like pigeon-holing people, which is not good - it's the "type" that changes the meaning for me. I guess we can put the difference in perception to differences in cultural and personal background. 8>< >>> The arguments about mailing lists vs forums have all been had. >> >> Not in my hearing :-) > > How long have you been on this list? The last such thread was about 4 > months ago: > > > http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Mailing-list-shutting-down-td102466.html > > That event was the immediate spur to start this Fossil forum project, > but if you search the archives, there are multiple threads. Here's one > from about a year ago: > > > http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Many-ML-emails-going-to-GMail-s-SPAM-td98685.html Yes, I have those in my own archive (47 emails in two threads) but I don't think that "all been had" applies. > If you think that thread is about a Gmail-specific problem, ... I don't, but I've never seen such spams, and I haven't had a false positive for months. 8>< > Meanwhile, the Fossil forum has been up for 78 days now without even > an *attempted* spam, as far as I'm aware, in part due to Fossil's > pre-existing anti-bot defenses: > > https://www.fossil-scm.org/fossil/doc/trunk/www/antibot.wiki I believe it. I also think it is (from my point of view) beside the point. 8>< > The need for message quoting is much reduced when you've got a > properly-threaded web view. But only if you read the forum through the web view, not in the emails. 8>< > > Even just reading, some of the forum emails are meaningless because > > there is no context. I know, I could follow the link to the forum to see > > the context - and then come back, and then go to the forum for a > > different context ' > > You say you've just joined, which means your mail reader doesn't > have any of the context locally, which is no different from a just-joined > mailing list. I was allowing for that. In a mailing list with mostly sensible contributors the context is right there in the same page/screen/window, while with the mail reader's thread list it's in a different place, and the forum is also in a different place (and requiring different connectivity). 8>< > I do believe Fossil's email alerts system sends the proper headers to > allow threaded viewing. So do I (In-Reply-To is enough?). If I think my mail reader is missing something in threading, I can fall back to the best threader I have (the surprisingly ancient mHonArc - Zawinski algorithm I think). What the forum doesn't allow is a subthread with a "was" subject, like this one. Eric -- ms fnd in a lbry ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
Gary R. Schmidt wrote: > On 10/10/2018 22:20, Petite Abeille wrote: > > > [SNIP] > > ( Also, fwiw: please keep the mailing list, it's perfectly functional as > > is. ) > > > Seconded. > > It isn't broken, so please don't try and fix it. > Exactly! :-) -- Chris Green · ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On 10/10/2018 22:20, Petite Abeille wrote: [SNIP] ( Also, fwiw: please keep the mailing list, it's perfectly functional as is. ) Seconded. It isn't broken, so please don't try and fix it. Cheers, GaryB-) ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
> On Oct 9, 2018, at 11:42 PM, Simon Slavin wrote: > > On 9 Oct 2018, at 10:38pm, Keith Medcalf wrote: > >> And just what is NSFW spam? > > Messages purporting to come from young women. Some including images > purporting to be them in various states of undress. ( How does one subscribe? Asking for a friend… ) ( Also, fwiw: please keep the mailing list, it's perfectly functional as is. ) ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On 9 Oct 2018, at 10:38pm, Keith Medcalf wrote: > And just what is NSFW spam? Messages purporting to come from young women. Some including images purporting to be them in various states of undress. Simon. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
>One of the problems we’ve been having on these lists is that every >time someone posts to it, they get NSFW spam, presumably because by >posting, you’ve just proven that your email address is valid. >Everyone on the ML sees the poster’s email address. My mailer >included yours in the quoting structure above, and you quoted mine in >the earlier quotes above. And just what is NSFW spam? Nazi Spam From Wankers? Perhaps someone needs better spam filters or stop using freemail ... --- The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Oct 9, 2018, at 2:50 PM, Darren Duncan wrote: > > On 2018-10-09 12:56 PM, Eric wrote: >> On Tue, 9 Oct 2018 11:19:13 -0600, Warren Young wrote: >>> Gmane is part of the problem that lead to the creation of the Fossil >>> forum feature. Viz., it enables spammers, by design: >>> >>> http://gmane.org/about/ >> I don't see that page saying what you claim it says. > > The only thing I saw along those lines was that gmane made it easy to harvest > the email addresses of all the forum posters, which could lead to external > spam, but I didn't see anything about it making things easier to send spam to > the lists themselves, unless that's implied by something else. -- Darren > Duncan One of the problems we’ve been having on these lists is that every time someone posts to it, they get NSFW spam, presumably because by posting, you’ve just proven that your email address is valid. Everyone on the ML sees the poster’s email address. My mailer included yours in the quoting structure above, and you quoted mine in the earlier quotes above. (I’ve been on mailing lists where they yelled at you if you didn’t strip such things from the email, never mind not having any evidence that this helped.) The only people who can see email addresses on a Fossil forum are the Admin and Setup users, which are typically the same person, and there’s usually only one. They aren’t visible to subscribers, and they aren’t included in forum repository clones. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Oct 9, 2018, at 1:56 PM, Eric wrote: > > I suppose I must be an "anti-forum type" even though I have never used > Gmane, but it does rather sound as though you are applying a somewhat > perjorative label here. I make no value judgement. If you are against web forums, then you are anti-forum. That’s just grammar. >> Gmane is part of the problem that lead to the creation of the Fossil >> forum feature. Viz., it enables spammers, by design: >> >>http://gmane.org/about/ > > I don't see that page saying what you claim it says. “Gmane makes it much easier for spam harvesters to gather these real, authentic mail addresses. Even though the Gmane web interface to the news spool obfuscates all addresses, a spam harvesting bot just has to point itself to the news interface to slurp down the entire spool. And there's not much I can do to stop that from happening.” >> The arguments about mailing lists vs forums have all been had. > > Not in my hearing :-) How long have you been on this list? The last such thread was about 4 months ago: http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Mailing-list-shutting-down-td102466.html That event was the immediate spur to start this Fossil forum project, but if you search the archives, there are multiple threads. Here’s one from about a year ago: http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Many-ML-emails-going-to-GMail-s-SPAM-td98685.html If you think that thread is about a Gmail-specific problem, you’ve misunderstood it. The problem is happening because spam gets reflected off this list, so people click “This is Spam” in Gmail, which causes Gmail’s spam filters to treat all messages on the list as more spammish. The more that happens, the less likely a given SQLite ML message is to get to a Gmail user. That problem will affect any mail system with centralized spam detection. Gmail is just the biggest such provider, so it affects more people than any other. Meanwhile, the Fossil forum has been up for 78 days now without even an *attempted* spam, as far as I’m aware, in part due to Fossil’s pre-existing anti-bot defenses: https://www.fossil-scm.org/fossil/doc/trunk/www/antibot.wiki If some spammer manages to get a posting past those defenses, it’ll be stopped by one of the moderators. > if I wanted to reply in context (like this very email) I would have to > construct it manually and paste it into the forum. The need for message quoting is much reduced when you’ve got a properly-threaded web view. As you can see from this message, I’m a big believer in brief, on-point quotes on mailing lists, but I only do it on the Fossil forum when there are multiple topics that need to be addressed separately, as in this message. When my entire reply follows clearly from the prior post, I don’t bother quoting. Keep in mind that Fossil forums default to Markdown formatting, so all it takes to quote something is to insert a right angle bracket and space at the start of a line, followed by a paste of the text you want to show as quoted in the reply. …which is the standard for email, too, which means MUAs display it as expected as well. > Even just reading, some of the forum emails are meaningless because > there is no context. I know, I could follow the link to the forum to see > the context - and then come back, and then go to the forum for a > different context … You say you’ve just joined, which means your mail reader doesn’t have any of the context locally, which is no different from a just-joined mailing list. If, after several days you have the same problem with threads where the entire conversation has been sent to you, then the problem is in your mailer’s ability to reconstruct a thread. I do believe Fossil’s email alerts system sends the proper headers to allow threaded viewing. If you find it’s not working, let us know which mailer you’re using, and maybe we can add more headers to clue it into the proper threading. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On 2018-10-09 12:56 PM, Eric wrote: On Tue, 9 Oct 2018 11:19:13 -0600, Warren Young wrote: Gmane is part of the problem that lead to the creation of the Fossil forum feature. Viz., it enables spammers, by design: http://gmane.org/about/ I don't see that page saying what you claim it says. The only thing I saw along those lines was that gmane made it easy to harvest the email addresses of all the forum posters, which could lead to external spam, but I didn't see anything about it making things easier to send spam to the lists themselves, unless that's implied by something else. -- Darren Duncan ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Tue, 9 Oct 2018 11:19:13 -0600, Warren Young wrote: > On Oct 9, 2018, at 7:48 AM, Scott Robison wrote: >> >> Isn't Gmane a web forum style interface to email lists? > > Gmane also provides NNTP access. I suspect the anti-forum types are > using Usenet news readers to follow such lists. That's precisely what Gmane was always for. I suppose I must be an "anti-forum type" even though I have never used Gmane, but it does rather sound as though you are applying a somewhat perjorative label here. > > Gmane is part of the problem that lead to the creation of the Fossil > forum feature. Viz., it enables spammers, by design: > > http://gmane.org/about/ I don't see that page saying what you claim it says. > The arguments about mailing lists vs forums have all been had. Not in my hearing :-) > The software's been written ... So I've joined the Fossil forum, and I get each post as an email and they seem to thread properly, but of course I can't post by email, and if I wanted to reply in context (like this very email) I would have to construct it manually and paste it into the forum. Even just reading, some of the forum emails are meaningless because there is no context. I know, I could follow the link to the forum to see the context - and then come back, and then go to the forum for a different context ... It's all too much trouble for someone with a lot of mailing list subscriptions, there isn't enough time in the day, it's a lot easier to keep a finger on the pulse without reading everything in mailing lists than it is with forums. I suppose all that amounts to a somewhat blurry feature request ;-) Eric -- ms fnd in a lbry ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Oct 9, 2018, at 7:48 AM, Scott Robison wrote: > > Isn't Gmane a web forum style interface to email lists? Gmane also provides NNTP access. I suspect the anti-forum types are using Usenet news readers to follow such lists. Gmane is part of the problem that lead to the creation of the Fossil forum feature. Viz., it enables spammers, by design: http://gmane.org/about/ The arguments about mailing lists vs forums have all been had. The software’s been written and is now successfully being used, tested, and enhanced, both within the Fossil project and in third-party repositories. (Two of my own public repos are now using Fossil forums, for example.) I believe the only uncertainties left are how many more features and how much more battle testing drh will want before cutting this mailing list over. It is possible that Fossil will grow an email submission feature before that happens, so that this list *appears* to remain in place, even after it’s moved to a Fossil forum on the back end. If that happens, I expect such email will be moderated by default. I’m not sure whether it will ever be safe to mark email submissions as not needing moderation, due to the ease of email From address forgery. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Re: [sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Tue, Oct 9, 2018, 6:34 AM Will Parsons wrote: > On Sunday, 7 Oct 2018 5:25 PM -0400, Keith Medcalf wrote: > > > > Many people do not "do" web forums. I am one of them. If there is not > a mailing list then it does not exist. > > I completely agree. I read and post to the SQLite mailing via Gmane, > and I used to do the same for Fossil. Now that the Fossil mailing > list has gone away, I can't use Gmane any more, so I no longer follow > Fossil. Please, let's *not* have the same thing happen with SQLite3! Isn't Gmane a web forum style interface to email lists? That doesn't seem much different than what fossil is now doing, though maybe my lack of experience using Gmane is preventing me from seeing a difference. As described by at least one other, I use email to track the fossil forum just as I always have, and can log in there to post when I want. I can appreciate why people who refuse to use a web interface might object to it, but not Gmane. There are potential cons to the forum, but there are pros as well. ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
[sqlite] SQLite mailing list [was: SQLite Windows GUI alternative to Excel?]
On Sunday, 7 Oct 2018 5:25 PM -0400, Keith Medcalf wrote: > > Many people do not "do" web forums. I am one of them. If there is not a > mailing list then it does not exist. I completely agree. I read and post to the SQLite mailing via Gmane, and I used to do the same for Fossil. Now that the Fossil mailing list has gone away, I can't use Gmane any more, so I no longer follow Fossil. Please, let's *not* have the same thing happen with SQLite3! -- Will ___ sqlite-users mailing list sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
