The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Hi Friends,
My question regarding Charisma and Ruhi is due to spotting this definition
in Wikipedia under the listing for New Religious Movements. If you replace
the word cult with the word movement you get what they refer to as the
social model. I can¹t help but view
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Ah, by charismatic you meant cultish. I've always used the Charismatic
Movement to refer to the movement in Christianity which emphasizes
gifts of the spirit (charisma) such as speaking in tongues.
. I can’t help but view the Ruhi movement as being something
separate
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Susan,
Could Ruhi be defined as a Charismatic movement within the Baha'i Faith?
Bill
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On 20/08/2012 3:42 AM, Skygram wrote:
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Susan,
Could Ruhi be defined as a Charismatic movement within the Baha'i Faith?
Bill
Probably in some countries YES, but not all countries or places.
Best regards,
Firouz
that a large % would like and
promulgate such, and since 2k has been totallly telling people they have a
right to not like ruhi, but wishes that those who don't like it either
shushhh or engage in meaningful development of alternatives.
i am however, occasionally intrigued by the prnoun issue
: UHJ on Ruhi
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
I may be wrong, but I believe the current attitude of the House is
that Ruhi
isn't for everyone and that if a person doesn't like it they don't
have to
do it. I want to clarify this is correct. If it is I'm wondering
if this
is just
accelerated courses ignore completely the praxis.
Dear Hasan,
And that's why when A clusters are created by using accelerated
courses without implementing the practices growth does not occur. It's
self-defeating. If Ruhi is anything at all, it *is* the practices.
warmest, Susan
is the correct answer...
to aswer david, ...possibly learning to listen as a vague glimpse of what
consultation will b like when ever it is its turn to become manifest is a ruhi
goal.
as a facilitator, i know which book is mine in a stack becuase nothing is ever
written in it. i know quite a few
In order to advance to an A cluster a certain number of people must complete
a few of the courses. Since I don't really learn anything or enjoy Ruhi I
was wondering if there is some way one can 'do' a course without going in a
course with others. Would I be able to do it in my own time
What kind of cult would the Faith be if you were allowed to do that;-?!
David Friedman wrote:
In order to advance to an A cluster a certain number of people must
complete a few of the courses. Since I don't really learn anything or
enjoy Ruhi I was wondering if there is some way one can 'do
anything or
enjoy Ruhi I
was wondering if there is some way one can 'do' a course without
going in a
course with others.
Would I be able to do it in my own time and
write my
answers in the book and then get it checked off by a tutor?
The short answer to your question is no. Besides
What kind of cult would the Faith be if you were allowed to do
that;-?!
Seriously, taking the courses by yourself would destroy their whole
purpose which is not to teach us certain things but to get us as a
community *doing* certain things. So the books are useless without the
practices.
Hi Susan,
there are not supposed to be any right or
wrong answers (despite the fact the questions are close-ended.
I wonder where the myth began that there are no right or wrong answers in
the Ruhi method. Clearly there are right and wrong answers. For example:
Book 1, Part
accelerated courses ignore completely the praxis. I am at book 2 for that
reason and because i cant find people.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: What kind of cult would the Faith be if you were
allowed to do
that;-?!
Seriously, taking the courses by yourself would destroy their whole
purpose
There are many examples like these. Maybe a facilitator, out of
courtesy, would not say
That answer is wrong, but an answer can still be wrong or
right, even if no one calls it that.
The notion that there are no right or wrong answers may hold
for some open ended questions, but for
Susan,
Is this the letter you mean? I found it at:
http://bahai-library.com/?file=uhj_training_institutes
With warm regards,
Tim Nolan
Training Institutes
by Universal House of Justice2001-05-31Dear Bah' Friend, Your letter dated 30 April 2001 has been received by the Universal House
Yes,
thanks. That is the letter I was looking for.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named
Sandra wrote: It has also been stated here in Alaska that Jr.Youth should not take the Ruhi course but, instead take the course (patterned after Ruhi) especially for Youth. I'm not sure what that is called. I'm curious if it is the same elsewhere. Regardless, it is only offered to Youth
Sandra wrote: It has also been stated here in Alaska that Jr.Youth should not take the Ruhi course but, instead take the course (patterned after Ruhi) especially for Youth. I'm not sure what that is called. I'm curious if it is the same elsewhere. Regardless, it is only offered to Youth
I completely agree about Ruhi and youth.
Here is my post from 2001:
http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m29288.html
Unfortunately from then to now there hasn't been a Book 2
offering in our community as many others became enthusiastic
and there have been several more Book 1 study circles
It has
also been stated here in Alaska that Jr.Youth should not take
the Ruhi course but, instead take the course (patterned after
Ruhi) especially for Youth.
Dear Sandra,
I don't quite get that, nor have I seen anything like it in the lower 48. My
experience is that children as young as 10
no trouble with the material. I figure Ruhi is pretty straightforward, and written in a concrete reasoning kindof way. I certainly see no reason why it has to be watered down for youth. Ihave never seen a youth who could not grasp it. As it is, my daughter has finished all the available books but 5, and is one
I think Ruhi was God-sent for my 16 yr old son. He used to be a shy, introvert
teenager with a wishy-washy knowledge of the Faith, and when he came to
meetings almost never said anything or was not engaged in any other way. He
went through all the Ruhi books and is now an enormously confident
In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:04:30 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
As for me, I sat and suffered through one session of Ruhi and was ready to putgun to my head after that. So it may not be for an old dog like me, but as Isaid it was God-sent for my son.Regards, Ahang.
My
In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:04:55 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
As for
me, I sat and suffered through one session of Ruhi and was ready to putgun
to my head after that. So it may not be for an old dog like me, but as
Isaid it was God-sent for my son.
Dear
it before.
Exactly. And we do need to keep in mind that Ruhi wasn't designed for us,
it was designed to consolidate mass enrollments.
warmest, Susan
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Susan:
"Exactly. And we do need to keep in mind that Ruhi wasn't designed for us,
it was designed to consolidate mass enrollments."
Dear Susan,
Why then are we encouraged and sometimes sort of forced to
enroll for these courses? Is it just to increase statistics?
Regar
Why then are we encouraged and sometimes sort of forced to enroll for these
courses? Is it just to increase statistics?
Nope. So we can tutor them.
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of the difficulties I find and that is that one of the
principal publishers of the Ruhi materials is Palabra Publications which
is associated with Paul Lample who is one of the staunchest supporters and
promoters of the Study Circle engine on the ITC. I wonder too if there
are royalty arrangements with the Ruhi
Tim,
At 08:21 PM 1/20/2005, you wrote:
I think anyone can have a study circle, you don't need anyone's permission or
approval. It may be that such an unofficial study circle will not count,
but so what?
Whether they count is not, IMO, the major problem. It is the fact that Ruhi
has been
. Personally, I think
it
is shortsighted, but if people feel this way, then
they feel this way. If an LSA feels only one who has
done Ruhi book 3 can teach children, then they are
entitled to decide so.
Dear Janine,
In this case, like so many, we are talking about
excluding people who
certain books that 'count'. The problem is that authorized Ruhi Study
Circles have been made prerequisites for other things. And the institutions
care if they count.
warmest, Susan
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I maintain that it is a job. And that the lsa is a
body who has to decide who is qualified and who is
not.
Dear Janine,
If what you are trying to say is that an LSA can establish any prerequisite
it wishes, I would agree. But when Ruhi books are made prerequisites for
certain types of service
It has not yet reached that level here in Ireland, as
far as I am aware. What things is one not eligible for
in the USA atthe moment if one has not done a certain
ruhi book?
much love,
janine
--- Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It sometimes seems to me that the fundamental
purpose
I want to thank everybody for giving your views and
ideas on this subject. For letting me know what is
happening in other countries, mainly USA and Thailand.
It has enhanced my understanding big time and my
ability to understand what a person who does not like
ruhi may sense as pitfalls
It has not yet reached that level here in Ireland, as
far as I am aware. What things is one not eligible for
in the USA atthe moment if one has not done a certain
ruhi book?
Dear Janine,
I only know of two things that Ruhi was made a requirement for. One was was
homefront pioneering
I am now tempted to leave this subject because, well,
I dunno. Maybe I have a feeling it is not a subject
pleasant to all. Not that we only should talk about
things we feel comfortable with. At the same time I do
not think it is wise to push a subject when it gets on
the nerves of people.
Dear
. And sometimes a doubtful approach is interpreted by Bahais as close to covenant breaking. Someone in my community said, after hearing that some people I knew on the internet had great difficulty with that ruhi is now so much promoted and questioned the wisdom of that, she said: that is covenant breaking
Anybody can set up a study circle. We can always refer back to the UHJ letters to bakc that up.
To be a recognised ruhi facillitator, one has to do book 7 and in some countries, Ireland for example, this one cannot do before one has done book 1,2,3,4,6.
but to set up any study circle one which
dearest friend.
much love,
janineKhazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Can I beg you all most humbly most supplicatingly to leave this sort ofdiscussion about discussion about slander about Ruhi? I have noted suchdiscussions become rapidly very very divisive. It can sunder and divide amost
uently a!
nd
regularly, well andgood. But if it means we divide our resources so that we are having lots oflittle meetings at individuals homes, I think it will be self-defeating.Seekers want to attend worship services at neutral venues."If I offer the ruhi book 1 to a friend, I
Janine and James et al,
Your in danger of falling off your high horses. I never suggested any actual
impropriety, what I asked for was that the Ruhi Institute materials be
placed in the public digital domain, in order to avoid/mitigate any
semblance of impropriety, any possibility of pecuniary
Dear janine,
Thanks again for your reply. Talking about Adib Taherzadeh, I would like to
comment that I do admire him. I had an opportunity to meet him during my
pilgrimage in 1996 and I really did enjoy talking with him and listening to
him. In fact I should say that I have met quite a
I never suggested any actual
impropriety, what I asked for was that the Ruhi Institute materials be
placed in the public digital domain, in order to avoid/mitigate any
semblance of impropriety,
The problem Steve, is that I don't think anyone saw any semblance of
impropriety until you suggested
Book 6 gave me a scenario for the subjects which are
most important to be brought up in talking to another
about the bahai faith (I happen to agree with the
importance of the subjects book 6 suggest) and also
gave me a manner, a way of speakign and being with a
person one wants to tell about the
I thought there is Core in the USA. Is that not considered an alternative?
Dear Janine,
The Fundamental Verities portion of the Core Curriculum existed prior to the
Study Circles and was then modified to meet the House's criteria for a basic
sequence of courses. But Ruhi got a head start here
Anybody can set up a study circle. We can always refer back to the UHJ
letters to bakc that up.
Dear Janine,
I know that, but it won't get counted as fulfilling any goals.
So if Ruhi is not working in the USA, and counsellors go around telling
things which are not based in truth, like that Ruhi
I remember when I did book 6, I had a problem with one of the editorial
comments about one of the quotations.
Dear Firouz,
I've had problems this way as well, though I've never done Book 6. But one
Baha'i insisted I wasn't giving firesides right because I wasn't keeping it
simple like Book 6
Dear Susan,
you are right I have not seen any statistics ;o)
I think a devotional meeting is not passing the prayer book around. I think it is creating a devotional atmosphere. I usually print out some quotes and prayers and try to make it as diverse as possible, with prayers from different
Curriculum existed prior to theStudy Circles and was then modified to meet the House's criteria for a basicsequence of courses. But Ruhi got a head start here because it was the onlyone which met the House's criteria already. Therefore the Institutes werethen packed with pro-Ruhi enthusiasts. When
I think some people are more interested in a small group than others. It
may be that in your area a devotional in a house does not work, but one
cannot know that for certain until at least 4 or 5 people have tried it on a
regular basis.
Dear Janine,
We don't have much choice where I live
purpose of my letter instead, one I think is much
more urgent than the question of Ruhi in any case. I like to pick my battles
and Ruhi is one I suspect I will lose. Hell, even my son is against me when
it comes to that. He likes Ruhi.
warmest, Susan
Janine:
You may be right that you might not be considered qualified to give
childrens classes if you have not done book 3. And that is a perfectly
legitimate decision of any LSA to make.
Dear Janine,
Here I cannot agree with you. There have been and there are excellent
children class teachers who
of professional educators and long term child's education Baha`is. It would be a pompous decision indeed to assum that those professionals and veterans of Core Curriculum training would be incompetent to teach because they had not taken book 3 or 5 of the Ruhi system
Regards,
Scott
Yes, this is one of the difficulties I find and that is that one of the
principal publishers of the Ruhi materials is Palabra Publications which is
associated with Paul Lample who is one of the staunchest supporters and
promoters of the Study Circle engine on the ITC. I wonder too
Susan, it could be argued that our efforts, in general, have been less
effective in urban areasOne cannot be sure that Ruhi, itself, is less
effective than any other approach in urban areas.
Dear James,
Yes, if effectiveness is measured by an increase in human resources or entry
by troops
, however I think it was
Paul Lample who persuaded the NSA not to offer an alternative to Ruhi as
they had originally tried to do and even developed the materials for.
This one has never seen on this list a condemnation of the Comprehensive
Deepening Materials (US in the 70s), which were produced
The opposite would also be true. Areas where Baha'is are very active in
study circles might experience large-scale growth just because they have
active Baha'is to begin with, not because of Ruhi. I expect to see high
growth, for instance, in the triangle area of North Carolina which is very
In a message dated 1/18/2005 11:28:41 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I think it would be more precise to say that Study Circles are about aProcess. Ruhi represents certain materials designed to further that process
I agree. Ruhi is a curriculum. I have done four books so
before Ruhi
arrived on the scene. At the time, though, it didn't quite fit the House's
latest criteria for Study Circles. So the next few years were spent
modifying it for that purpose. Then when the revised program was ready to
launch it was torpedoed. What really bugs me James, is that just after
In a message dated 1/18/2005 5:37:32 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Also, I've heard Counsellor insist that tobe a homefront pioneer requires that one be prepared to set up studycircles, and in the absence of an alternative curriculum, that means Ruhi.
The Southern Regiona
Firouz,
I am sorry for your experiences. They do not seem to
be good.
A couple of years ago (2 I think) there was a
counsellor from Russia over in Ireland to attend a
non-Bahai conference. She told us that in her town the
LSA decided to offer the Ruhi book 1 as a personal
development course
Susan: In fact
I was just thinking
about just how visceral my reaction to Ruhi was;
that I open the book and
almost feel it shouting at me, We don't want you to
think! But my
experience of this material is probably shaped, at
least in part, by the
anti-intellectualism I've seen
the members of LSA. I do hope
somehow that all
friends become more and more deepened by Ruhi or
otherwise. Personally I do
not count much on Ruhi.
At this time I have just enough time to have a
monthly fireside at my home
which I do prefer it to a study circle.
regards,
Firouz
:o)
I must admit i was in a slightly provocative mood when
I made that statement.
The thing is, what I often see people call a fireside
I don't think is a fireside at all. It is an official
talk about what one person thinks the bahai faith is
saying about a certain topic.
But then, I am a
It can be very lonely being a Bahai.
I wish you much strength and love,
Janine van rooij
To be LONELY is almost essential in being a Bahai
Thou seest this Wronged One LONELY in exile: Where are the hosts of the
heaven of Thy Command, O Sovereign of the worlds?
(Baha'u'llah:
taught me that a bit as well, because what it
says about how to treat children is very much
applicable to adults. To everybody.
Book 4 was fun to do but did not teach me much. I am
good at story telling and holding on to facts and I
knew a lot of the history already.
The social aspect of ruhi
Dear Susan,
One does not exclude the other. I also feel that your
interpretation of what Abdu'l-Baha is trying to do is
too narrow. I think it does apply not only to assembly
members, but to all of the community. I will later
post some quotes for the reason why I think this, when
I am back at a
Can I beg you all most humbly most supplicatingly to leave this sort of
discussion about discussion about slander about Ruhi? I have noted such
discussions become rapidly very very divisive. It can sunder and divide a
most dear friend from a post code in nz from one in Ireland...or one from
. But if it means we divide our resources so that we are having lots of
little meetings at individuals homes, I think it will be self-defeating.
Seekers want to attend worship services at neutral venues.
If I offer the ruhi book 1 to a friend, I will ask for
feedback of that friend, and if the friend
Janine,
At 10:31 PM 1/16/2005, you wrote:
and it is too fundamentalistic in approach.
You hit on one of my pet peeves. The Ruhi method, as I have seen it conducted
(and as I have heard from most other people), *is*, IMO, fundamentalist, and I
am concerned it is being promoted
Hi Mark,
Oh dear. This could easily end in a pro-contra ruhi debate. When I hear objections to things I always want to try to assess how much of these objections are based in truth. The same when I hear glorification of things.
how many people OUTSIDE the USA do you know who have gone through
In a message dated 1/17/2005 10:37:49 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The same when I hear glorification of things.
how many people OUTSIDE the USA do you know who have gone through the
ruhi books, who have done more than one?
Dear Janine,
If most people
? there is a lot of good in the Irish approach as well. That is what I have discovered.
And I am wondering if this cannot be said of Ruhi. That we are used to do things in a certain way and are thrown and prone to reject it when a new way of doing things is offered to us. Especially if we live in a culture
I forgot one thing.
I want to ask you all, both in favour and those not in favour of ruhi, how sure you are you are objective, you follow the tablet of the true seeker in this and how ready you are to throw preconceived ideas and notions overboard. It is a question I invite you to ask yourself
Chuckle!
No Ruhi is not academic. I omitted something there. What I intended was: if you live in a culture whihc has a strong subculture of anti-intellectualism and then a method is introduced which is not appealing to the intellect, it can create a strong bias against that method.
You say
was just thinking
about just how visceral my reaction to Ruhi was; that I open the book and
almost feel it shouting at me, We don't want you to think! But my
experience of this material is probably shaped, at least in part, by the
anti-intellectualism I've seen in the community at large.
You say
In a message dated 1/17/2005 12:21:51 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Maybe it is a good thing that firesides have stopped,
The NSA has made cleaqr over and over in the U.S. that the institute process should NOT make firesides and deepenings stop. If it is, then attitudes
. There
is only so much of it to go around and right now that energy is being
expended on Ruhi, leaving little time for firesides and deepenings. That
being the case though, I have to question the extent to which Ruhi reaches
its goal of increasing human resources?
warmest, Susan
Dear Scott,
What Abdu'l-Baha was trying to do was make sure that individual Assembly
members did not undermine the authority of the institution as a whole by
opposing the decision that body made. For them not to act in unity under
these circumstances is rather like parents arguing discipline
In fact, even our NSA seems to have largely been shut out of the process.
It mostly came down from the ITC, which as you know, is not an elected
institution.
Yes, this is one of the difficulties I find and that is that one of the
principal publishers of the Ruhi materials is Palabra Publications
I would like to add a few of my personal observations about Ruhi in
Thailand. The emphasis during last 5 years or so have been on Ruhi Study
Circles, devotional meetings, and children classes here in Thailand
(specially Ruhi SC). In Yasothan in North East of Thailand where a Baha'i
school
But personally I did not enjoy the SC method of Teaching the
Faith.
Dear Firouz,
Don't confuse Ruhi with Study Circles per se. Ruhi is just the curriculum
which has been adopted in most areas for Study Circles.
Once when I disagreed about a given comment in one of the Ruhi books,
I was sort
Dear all,
I read some of the posts on ruhi on this list with
interest.
From what I am getting from the USA Bahais at various
places on the internet it seems that in the USA Ruhi
is tutored in quite a strict way, with a lot of
emphasis on 'how it is supposed to be taught'.
In Ireland we
process used by Ruhi.
Dear Mark,
This is how the term is used by Abdu'l-Baha in the Seven Candles of Unity:
"The second candle is unity of thought in world undertakings, the
consummation of which will erelong be witnessed"
That's seems to refer more to the UN reaching a consensus th
introduced.
The study circle brings together a variety of people with a variety of
opinions in a harmonious, welcoming atmosphere of learning (IMO).
I would be interested in the demographics of long-term Ruhi participation and
how it correlates with the general Baha'i populations in different areas
and the conclusion I drew was
that the Ruhi editors opinion (personal interpretation) is supposed to supersede
what the Writings say about reading the revelations and meditating upon them.
Reading the text and meditating on the text is what the writings TELL us to do.
Yet the Ruhi editors see
I said:
Seems a tad hypocritical to me but that is just my take on this whole
exchange.
I just want to say that after I posted I noted that here is someone who has
taken a year long vacation from just about anything Baha'i telling others to
get off their fanny and do something.
Dick Am I the
to be. But
I'd have a hard time believing they'd get in the
way.
I doubt the House would object to any degree with developing new material.
It is not the House that is pushing Ruhi. It is the Regional Teaching Institutes
who will brook no variance. They say we HAVE Ruhi, so we should USE Ruhi
I doubt the House would object to any degree with developing new
material. It is not the House that is pushing Ruhi. It is the Regional
Teaching Institutes who will brook no variance. They say we HAVE Ruhi, so we
should USE Ruhi and not waste time developing other material
In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:22:04 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The problem
is that they appear to make an exception with their own
comments.
Which is precisely what has always perturbed me with reading Ruhi method
material.
Regards,
Scott
to support the assertion that the
Writings said something or other, the tutor insisted it must be right because
the House of Justice had approved of these materials. Similarly, when I
suggested to a Board Member that Ruhi be revised by removing pilgrim's notes and
not asking close-ended questions
Scott,
Ruhi wrote:
We believe that the simple habit of thinking about the implications of the
Writings with the minimum of personal interpretation would eliminate a great
share of the disagreements that afflict consultation in many communities,
You replied to Ruhi:
In other words the opinions
, unity of thought refers to keeping one's mind
and heart centered on Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha, i.e., the Covenant. It has
nothing directly to do with the fundamentalist indoctrination process used by
Ruhi.
Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger
-- Abbie
Tutor: I don't think any of the ideas you have described is wrong or
undesirable in principle. The problem is .that referring to them as elements of
a Ruhi method introduces rigidity into a process that is otherwise simple,
joyful, and sensitive to a diversity of needs. For example, you all
PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
In a message dated 12/10/2004 7:04:01 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
unity of thought refers to keeping one's mind and heart centered on
Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha, i.e
From: Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 08:45:32 -0600
On the one hand you say:
I would be interested in the demographics of long-term Ruhi participation
Hi, Dick,
At 09:14 AM 12/10/2004, you wrote:
On the one hand you say:
I would be interested in the demographics of long-term Ruhi participation and
how it correlates with the general Baha'i populations in different areas. My
guess* would is that we would see a negative correlation between
That is not true!
One cannot fail to meditate on the writings after going through the
sequence.
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions
In a message dated 12/10
In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:38:05 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Dear
Scott, It may be tempting to believe this, but I'm sure it is not what
the editors think they are doing.
I am sure it isn't what they think they are saying, but I think that is
also
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