Sean and All
There seem to be two questions here, the first is whether the thumb
was used, and
the example given was a plausible case of this; and the other is
whether there is another
way out. Of course if there was no way out, the case would be even
stronger; but then
there are all these images which need explaining.
Quite another question, is whether all historic practises NEED to be
reproduced
by modern players. It might be interesting to try them out to see
if they were even possible?
In other words, this is more a question of historic reconstruction
and what the
Renaissance techniques might have been, than a call for every one to
click their thumbs,
as it were.
Best
Anthony
Le 30 nov. 06 à 19:21, Sean Smith a écrit :
>
> Hello all,
>
> I don't want to get caught up in the thumb<-->no thumb debate on the
> 6th course but there is another way out of the fingering dilemna of
> Arthur's example from Francesco's Ricercar 27 (it also appears in a
> Paladin' Milenesa Pavana m. 12-13 and probably elsewhere).
>
> First I finger (with the 1st finger already on the F#):
>
> 2(3)----
> --------
> 3(4)----
> 2(2)-1(1)
> --------
> 2(2)----
>
> The 2nd finger is a kind of hinge bar that when lifted off the 4th
> course, the F# is then exposed. I'll confess I haven't tried the
> wrap-around-thumb but it's not a position I feel comfortable in.
>
> Sean
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 30, 2006, at 9:45 AM, Arthur Ness wrote:
>
>> I have put some more examples here, including two
>> supposed Francesco portraits, and a musical example.
>> And some other pictures.
>>
>> http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/thumb.html
>>
>> ==ajn.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net"
>> <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:19 AM
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Le 30 nov. 06 =E0 15:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a
>>> ecrit :
>>>
>>>> Dear Anthony and all,
>>>>
>>>> at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am
>>>> playing mainly
>>>> a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute
>>>> I tried to
>>>> avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked
>>>> well for me
>>>> on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century
>>>> guitar tutors are
>>>> said to know this technique, too) and I later learned
>>>> that Ganassi
>>>> mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal
>>>> accompaniments
>>>> (and possibly in a rendering of "Anji" on the
>>>> six-course lute) but
>>>> I would avoid it when playing Francesco ...
>>> Thank you Joachim
>>> But about Francesco, in the painting postulated by
>>> some to be of him
>>> (by Giulio Campi, 1525, Pinacoteca Civica, Como),
>>> there he is with
>>> his thumb "cocked" in the ready position (see
>>> http://le.luth.free.fr/
>>> renaissance/index.html, look at collumn 4 line 3). I
>>> think it may
>>> have been argued that this could be a protrait of him
>>> in Lute
>>> Festival 2004 Lectures by Mariagrazia Carlone,
>>> Portraiture of
>>> Sixteenth-Century Lutenists, (see the juxtaposed
>>> comparison between
>>> this and a known portrait at :
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/
>>> Cleveland2004/Portraits.html#top).
>>> but I may be mistaken, and this may not be his playing
>>> position.
>>> All the best
>>> Anthony
>>>> All best,
>>>>
>>>> Joachim
>>>>
>>>> "Anthony Hind" <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> schrieb:
>>>>> Dear All
>>>>> In Lute News N=B079, P.25, we can read that
>>>>> "The January
>>>> 2006 (Vol
>>>>> 24, N=B0 05) issue has a paper on the technique of
>>>>> using the left
>>>>> thumb, over the edge of the neck (seen
>>>>> in some renaissance lute paintings)" and often
>>>>> seen in folk guitar
>>>>> techniques. I suppose the article in question was
>>>>> "All Fingers and
>>>>> Thumbs" by Yehuda Schryer (that I have not read).
>>>>> The Iconography on a web page run by Jean-Marie
>>>>> Poirier shows this
>>>>> clearly (http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html).
>>>>> Several
>>>> members of
>>>>> the French lute list have suggested that this might
>>>>> only have
>>>> been on
>>>>> relatively narrow-necked 5 to 6 course lutes with a
>>>>> semi-circular
>>>>> section (rather than the later wider flatter
>>>>> necks). It has also
>>>> been
>>>>> suggested that on the lowest courses the diapason
>>>>> and octave would
>>>>> have been very close together, to assist in this
>>>>> "thumb-blocking".
>>>>>
>>>>> It almost seems as though the neck-shape is
>>>>> intended to fit ;in
>>>> to the ;
>>>>> curve of the hand for this technique.
>>>>> However, I would like to ask if any of you actually
>>>>> hold this
>>>> type of
>>>>> lute in this way, and whether you adopt this thumb
>>>>> over diapason
>>>>> technique.
>>>>> Anthony
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dr. Joachim Ludtke
>>>> Fruhlingsstra=DFe 9a
>>>> D - 93164 Laaber
>>>> Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
