Whoa! I'm having a deja lu moment! s
On Nov 30, 2006, at 10:51 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: > Sean and All > There seem to be two questions here, the first is whether the thumb > was used, and > the example given was a plausible case of this; and the other is > whether there is another > way out. Of course if there was no way out, the case would be even > stronger; but then > there are all these images which need explaining. > > Quite another question, is whether all historic practises NEED to be > reproduced > by modern players. It might be interesting to try them out to see if > they were even possible? > In other words, this is more a question of historic reconstruction and > what the > Renaissance techniques might have been, than a call for every one to > click their thumbs, > as it were. > Best > Anthony > > > Le 30 nov. 06 à 19:21, Sean Smith a écrit : > >> >> Hello all, >> >> I don't want to get caught up in the thumb<-->no thumb debate on the >> 6th course but there is another way out of the fingering dilemna of >> Arthur's example from Francesco's Ricercar 27 (it also appears in a >> Paladin' Milenesa Pavana m. 12-13 and probably elsewhere). >> >> First I finger (with the 1st finger already on the F#): >> >> 2(3)---- >> -------- >> 3(4)---- >> 2(2)-1(1) >> -------- >> 2(2)---- >> >> The 2nd finger is a kind of hinge bar that when lifted off the 4th >> course, the F# is then exposed. I'll confess I haven't tried the >> wrap-around-thumb but it's not a position I feel comfortable in. >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 30, 2006, at 9:45 AM, Arthur Ness wrote: >> >>> I have put some more examples here, including two >>> supposed Francesco portraits, and a musical example. >>> And some other pictures. >>> >>> http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/thumb.html >>> >>> ==ajn. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net" >>> <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:19 AM >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason? >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Le 30 nov. 06 =E0 15:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a >>>> ecrit : >>>> >>>>> Dear Anthony and all, >>>>> >>>>> at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am >>>>> playing mainly >>>>> a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute >>>>> I tried to >>>>> avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked >>>>> well for me >>>>> on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century >>>>> guitar tutors are >>>>> said to know this technique, too) and I later learned >>>>> that Ganassi >>>>> mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal >>>>> accompaniments >>>>> (and possibly in a rendering of "Anji" on the >>>>> six-course lute) but >>>>> I would avoid it when playing Francesco ... >>>> Thank you Joachim >>>> But about Francesco, in the painting postulated by >>>> some to be of him >>>> (by Giulio Campi, 1525, Pinacoteca Civica, Como), >>>> there he is with >>>> his thumb "cocked" in the ready position (see >>>> http://le.luth.free.fr/ >>>> renaissance/index.html, look at collumn 4 line 3). I >>>> think it may >>>> have been argued that this could be a protrait of him >>>> in Lute >>>> Festival 2004 Lectures by Mariagrazia Carlone, >>>> Portraiture of >>>> Sixteenth-Century Lutenists, (see the juxtaposed >>>> comparison between >>>> this and a known portrait at : >>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/ >>>> Cleveland2004/Portraits.html#top). >>>> but I may be mistaken, and this may not be his playing >>>> position. >>>> All the best >>>> Anthony >>>>> All best, >>>>> >>>>> Joachim >>>>> >>>>> "Anthony Hind" <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> schrieb: >>>>>> Dear All >>>>>> In Lute News N=B079, P.25, we can read that >>>>>> "The January >>>>> 2006 (Vol >>>>>> 24, N=B0 05) issue has a paper on the technique of >>>>>> using the left >>>>>> thumb, over the edge of the neck (seen >>>>>> in some renaissance lute paintings)" and often >>>>>> seen in folk guitar >>>>>> techniques. I suppose the article in question was >>>>>> "All Fingers and >>>>>> Thumbs" by Yehuda Schryer (that I have not read). >>>>>> The Iconography on a web page run by Jean-Marie >>>>>> Poirier shows this >>>>>> clearly (http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html). >>>>>> Several >>>>> members of >>>>>> the French lute list have suggested that this might >>>>>> only have >>>>> been on >>>>>> relatively narrow-necked 5 to 6 course lutes with a >>>>>> semi-circular >>>>>> section (rather than the later wider flatter >>>>>> necks). It has also >>>>> been >>>>>> suggested that on the lowest courses the diapason >>>>>> and octave would >>>>>> have been very close together, to assist in this >>>>>> "thumb-blocking". >>>>>> >>>>>> It almost seems as though the neck-shape is >>>>>> intended to fit ;in >>>>> to the ; >>>>>> curve of the hand for this technique. >>>>>> However, I would like to ask if any of you actually >>>>>> hold this >>>>> type of >>>>>> lute in this way, and whether you adopt this thumb >>>>>> over diapason >>>>>> technique. >>>>>> Anthony >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Dr. Joachim Ludtke >>>>> Fruhlingsstra=DFe 9a >>>>> D - 93164 Laaber >>>>> Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188 >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >
