Sean
I think, thumb-over is a very good term. I agree, that if there was
only one possible way of
playing the extract in question, then there would be conclusive
proof. At present it seems
a high probability that this was practised, especially as you point
to interesting advantages
of the technique; but , as you say, this does not mean that every one
adopted it.
Mark Wheeler's idea that 'thumb-over' might be a hang over from
plectrum playing also
seems an interesting hypothesis. Then, there is the possibility as he
suggests
that the images might be either of damping or of blocking with the
thumb,
or even sometimes the one, sometimes the other.
The situation as usual, turns out to be more complex than at first
sight;
but doesn't this lead to a much more interesting life.
Thank you for your insight
Anthony
Le 30 nov. 06 à 22:59, Sean Smith a écrit :
>
> Indeed, Anthony, there are many variables involved and I don't think
> it's possible to rule it out or in. I only brought up the possible
> solution to show that the musical example itself is more vague than
> the
> graphic examples on AJN's page.
>
> Consider this scenerio:
>
> In performing a tenor and counterpoint by one's self (possibly
> exemplified by the final 2 pictures on Arthur's page) on a 5-c
> lute, it
> is entirely within reason to tune the 5th (lowest) course a 5th below
> the 4th course. If your tonic or final were now on the lowest course,
> 2nd fret then you may want to plant the thumb on that 2nd fret. This
> would be very handy for holding the lute w/out a strap. You could
> still
> hold the lute w/ while playing the dominant and sub-dominant as well
> for, say, Conde claros.
>
> With the smaller neck of the 5-c one could even reach over to the 4th
> course w/ the thumb. Effectively, one could get quite a range for the
> lowest two strings depending on how the lowest courses were tuned.
>
> Also, there was a very close organalogical overlap between the
> vihuelas
> de mano and d'arco. If a player played both instruments I'm sure there
> would be some hand position/tuning overlap as well. I am recalling a
> discussion that more or less concluded that tuning in 5ths was most
> beneficial for single line melodies and 4ths more beneficial for
> multi-line polyphony (with plenty of room for exceptions, of course)
>
> I would be more surprised if *no one* had tried this "thumb over"
> technique. To my mind, a certain number of players would use it (and
> some reject it) for as long as baseline-and-treble counterpoints
> remained popular. No harm, no foul either way.
>
> Ok, a question: is there a name for this? "Thumb over" vs "Thumb
> behind", maybe? --I seem to recall that "Thumb out" and "Thumb under"
> are taken.
>
> best regards,
> Sean
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 30, 2006, at 10:51 AM, Anthony Hind wrote:
>
>> Sean and All
>> There seem to be two questions here, the first is whether the thumb
>> was used, and
>> the example given was a plausible case of this; and the other is
>> whether there is another
>> way out. Of course if there was no way out, the case would be even
>> stronger; but then
>> there are all these images which need explaining.
>>
>> Quite another question, is whether all historic practises NEED to be
>> reproduced
>> by modern players. It might be interesting to try them out to see
>> if they were even possible?
>> In other words, this is more a question of historic reconstruction
>> and what the
>> Renaissance techniques might have been, than a call for every one to
>> click their thumbs,
>> as it were.
>> Best
>> Anthony
>>
>>
>> Le 30 nov. 06 à 19:21, Sean Smith a écrit :
>>
>>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I don't want to get caught up in the thumb<-->no thumb debate on the
>>> 6th course but there is another way out of the fingering dilemna of
>>> Arthur's example from Francesco's Ricercar 27 (it also appears in a
>>> Paladin' Milenesa Pavana m. 12-13 and probably elsewhere).
>>>
>>> First I finger (with the 1st finger already on the F#):
>>>
>>> 2(3)----
>>> --------
>>> 3(4)----
>>> 2(2)-1(1)
>>> --------
>>> 2(2)----
>>>
>>> The 2nd finger is a kind of hinge bar that when lifted off the 4th
>>> course, the F# is then exposed. I'll confess I haven't tried the
>>> wrap-around-thumb but it's not a position I feel comfortable in.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 30, 2006, at 9:45 AM, Arthur Ness wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have put some more examples here, including two
>>>> supposed Francesco portraits, and a musical example.
>>>> And some other pictures.
>>>>
>>>> http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/thumb.html
>>>>
>>>> ==ajn.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net"
>>>> <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:19 AM
>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Le 30 nov. 06 =E0 15:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a
>>>>> ecrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Anthony and all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am
>>>>>> playing mainly
>>>>>> a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute
>>>>>> I tried to
>>>>>> avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked
>>>>>> well for me
>>>>>> on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century
>>>>>> guitar tutors are
>>>>>> said to know this technique, too) and I later learned
>>>>>> that Ganassi
>>>>>> mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal
>>>>>> accompaniments
>>>>>> (and possibly in a rendering of "Anji" on the
>>>>>> six-course lute) but
>>>>>> I would avoid it when playing Francesco ...
>>>>> Thank you Joachim
>>>>> But about Francesco, in the painting postulated by
>>>>> some to be of him
>>>>> (by Giulio Campi, 1525, Pinacoteca Civica, Como),
>>>>> there he is with
>>>>> his thumb "cocked" in the ready position (see
>>>>> http://le.luth.free.fr/
>>>>> renaissance/index.html, look at collumn 4 line 3). I
>>>>> think it may
>>>>> have been argued that this could be a protrait of him
>>>>> in Lute
>>>>> Festival 2004 Lectures by Mariagrazia Carlone,
>>>>> Portraiture of
>>>>> Sixteenth-Century Lutenists, (see the juxtaposed
>>>>> comparison between
>>>>> this and a known portrait at :
>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/
>>>>> Cleveland2004/Portraits.html#top).
>>>>> but I may be mistaken, and this may not be his playing
>>>>> position.
>>>>> All the best
>>>>> Anthony
>>>>>> All best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joachim
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Anthony Hind" <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>> schrieb:
>>>>>>> Dear All
>>>>>>> In Lute News N=B079, P.25, we can read that
>>>>>>> "The January
>>>>>> 2006 (Vol
>>>>>>> 24, N=B0 05) issue has a paper on the technique of
>>>>>>> using the left
>>>>>>> thumb, over the edge of the neck (seen
>>>>>>> in some renaissance lute paintings)" and often
>>>>>>> seen in folk guitar
>>>>>>> techniques. I suppose the article in question was
>>>>>>> "All Fingers and
>>>>>>> Thumbs" by Yehuda Schryer (that I have not read).
>>>>>>> The Iconography on a web page run by Jean-Marie
>>>>>>> Poirier shows this
>>>>>>> clearly (http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html).
>>>>>>> Several
>>>>>> members of
>>>>>>> the French lute list have suggested that this might
>>>>>>> only have
>>>>>> been on
>>>>>>> relatively narrow-necked 5 to 6 course lutes with a
>>>>>>> semi-circular
>>>>>>> section (rather than the later wider flatter
>>>>>>> necks). It has also
>>>>>> been
>>>>>>> suggested that on the lowest courses the diapason
>>>>>>> and octave would
>>>>>>> have been very close together, to assist in this
>>>>>>> "thumb-blocking".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It almost seems as though the neck-shape is
>>>>>>> intended to fit ;in
>>>>>> to the ;
>>>>>>> curve of the hand for this technique.
>>>>>>> However, I would like to ask if any of you actually
>>>>>>> hold this
>>>>>> type of
>>>>>>> lute in this way, and whether you adopt this thumb
>>>>>>> over diapason
>>>>>>> technique.
>>>>>>> Anthony
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Dr. Joachim Ludtke
>>>>>> Fruhlingsstra=DFe 9a
>>>>>> D - 93164 Laaber
>>>>>> Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
