Dear Sean, Mark and All
I just fully realized what your explanation could imply. If you tune
down the the 5thc
on a 5c lute, then you could permanently hold the 5c as if the thumb
was a miniature capo.
If I understand you correctly, then the string tension could be less
on that diapason, which might join
the comments by Martin Shepherd on the other thread relating to
advantages of low tension on gut strings
(M.S. [LUTE] Low tension strings 29 november 2006 10:35:22), as well
as be a comfortable way of holding this
type of lute.
On my 7c lute, I always have the 7th course permanently tuned to D
(rather than F). Now on my old student's lute, which
had a very narrow neck I was able to "toy with" either thumb-over (or
the little finger stretch), for the following frequently occurring
pattern for 7c lute(VII=F), or 8c lute (VII=F,VIII=D):
1(c)
2(d)
3(d)
7(d) = F
This makes the 7c almost equivalent to an 8c lute.
However, on my wider Martin Haycock 7c Gerle lute, thumb-over with
this pattern is nigh impossible, and
I always use the little finger stretch.
Carlos Gonzales lutemaker has suggested to the French list that
Renaissance lutes may
well have had narrower necks than most people play at present.
Therefore, my old student
lute might have been closer to Renaissance practise. However, as far
as I can make it out,
It would seem that this thumb-over position only occurs with 6 or 5c
lutes judging from paintings.
Of course this does not preclude a move between two positions (thumb-
under to thumb-over)
which might not be recorded in paintings.
Mark
I am just thinking that the idea of the thumb-damping could perhaps
be more relevant to metal
wound strings. I think many lute players, even today, damp their
metal wound strings (with the right-hand).
However, on pure unwound gut strings the sustain almost instantly
disappears when you release the
course (I suppose this is relative, and damping could still make this
more instantaneous) .
Perhaps this may not be the case if the course is struck by a
plectrum (I have never tried), so it still could be
a position carried over from the days of plectrum use.
Today, bass oud strings appear to be metal wound. Has this always
been the case?
Your cittern example is, I feel sure, metal strung.
In fact, this is one of the reasons why some people prefer all gut,
as the basses (even without damping) don't tend
to drown the high and mid. Another reason being the overall more
homogenous sound
This is just a secondary thought about the question, the idea remains
extremely interesting, and
obviously gives insight into thumb-over in many metal string contexts.
Regards
Anthony
Le 30 nov. 06 à 22:59, Sean Smith a écrit :
>
> Indeed, Anthony, there are many variables involved and I don't think
> it's possible to rule it out or in. I only brought up the possible
> solution to show that the musical example itself is more vague than
> the
> graphic examples on AJN's page.
>
> Consider this scenerio:
>
> In performing a tenor and counterpoint by one's self (possibly
> exemplified by the final 2 pictures on Arthur's page) on a 5-c
> lute, it
> is entirely within reason to tune the 5th (lowest) course a 5th below
> the 4th course. If your tonic or final were now on the lowest course,
> 2nd fret then you may want to plant the thumb on that 2nd fret. This
> would be very handy for holding the lute w/out a strap. You could
> still
> hold the lute w/ while playing the dominant and sub-dominant as well
> for, say, Conde claros.
>
> With the smaller neck of the 5-c one could even reach over to the 4th
> course w/ the thumb. Effectively, one could get quite a range for the
> lowest two strings depending on how the lowest courses were tuned.
>
> Also, there was a very close organalogical overlap between the
> vihuelas
> de mano and d'arco. If a player played both instruments I'm sure there
> would be some hand position/tuning overlap as well. I am recalling a
> discussion that more or less concluded that tuning in 5ths was most
> beneficial for single line melodies and 4ths more beneficial for
> multi-line polyphony (with plenty of room for exceptions, of course)
>
> I would be more surprised if *no one* had tried this "thumb over"
> technique. To my mind, a certain number of players would use it (and
> some reject it) for as long as baseline-and-treble counterpoints
> remained popular. No harm, no foul either way.
>
> Ok, a question: is there a name for this? "Thumb over" vs "Thumb
> behind", maybe? --I seem to recall that "Thumb out" and "Thumb under"
> are taken.
>
> best regards,
> Sean
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 30, 2006, at 10:51 AM, Anthony Hind wrote:
>
>> Sean and All
>> There seem to be two questions here, the first is whether the thumb
>> was used, and
>> the example given was a plausible case of this; and the other is
>> whether there is another
>> way out. Of course if there was no way out, the case would be even
>> stronger; but then
>> there are all these images which need explaining.
>>
>> Quite another question, is whether all historic practises NEED to be
>> reproduced
>> by modern players. It might be interesting to try them out to see
>> if they were even possible?
>> In other words, this is more a question of historic reconstruction
>> and what the
>> Renaissance techniques might have been, than a call for every one to
>> click their thumbs,
>> as it were.
>> Best
>> Anthony
>>
>>
>> Le 30 nov. 06 à 19:21, Sean Smith a écrit :
>>
>>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I don't want to get caught up in the thumb<-->no thumb debate on the
>>> 6th course but there is another way out of the fingering dilemna of
>>> Arthur's example from Francesco's Ricercar 27 (it also appears in a
>>> Paladin' Milenesa Pavana m. 12-13 and probably elsewhere).
>>>
>>> First I finger (with the 1st finger already on the F#):
>>>
>>> 2(3)----
>>> --------
>>> 3(4)----
>>> 2(2)-1(1)
>>> --------
>>> 2(2)----
>>>
>>> The 2nd finger is a kind of hinge bar that when lifted off the 4th
>>> course, the F# is then exposed. I'll confess I haven't tried the
>>> wrap-around-thumb but it's not a position I feel comfortable in.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 30, 2006, at 9:45 AM, Arthur Ness wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have put some more examples here, including two
>>>> supposed Francesco portraits, and a musical example.
>>>> And some other pictures.
>>>>
>>>> http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/thumb.html
>>>>
>>>> ==ajn.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net"
>>>> <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:19 AM
>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Le 30 nov. 06 =E0 15:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a
>>>>> ecrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Anthony and all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am
>>>>>> playing mainly
>>>>>> a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute
>>>>>> I tried to
>>>>>> avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked
>>>>>> well for me
>>>>>> on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century
>>>>>> guitar tutors are
>>>>>> said to know this technique, too) and I later learned
>>>>>> that Ganassi
>>>>>> mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal
>>>>>> accompaniments
>>>>>> (and possibly in a rendering of "Anji" on the
>>>>>> six-course lute) but
>>>>>> I would avoid it when playing Francesco ...
>>>>> Thank you Joachim
>>>>> But about Francesco, in the painting postulated by
>>>>> some to be of him
>>>>> (by Giulio Campi, 1525, Pinacoteca Civica, Como),
>>>>> there he is with
>>>>> his thumb "cocked" in the ready position (see
>>>>> http://le.luth.free.fr/
>>>>> renaissance/index.html, look at collumn 4 line 3). I
>>>>> think it may
>>>>> have been argued that this could be a protrait of him
>>>>> in Lute
>>>>> Festival 2004 Lectures by Mariagrazia Carlone,
>>>>> Portraiture of
>>>>> Sixteenth-Century Lutenists, (see the juxtaposed
>>>>> comparison between
>>>>> this and a known portrait at :
>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/
>>>>> Cleveland2004/Portraits.html#top).
>>>>> but I may be mistaken, and this may not be his playing
>>>>> position.
>>>>> All the best
>>>>> Anthony
>>>>>> All best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joachim
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Anthony Hind" <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>> schrieb:
>>>>>>> Dear All
>>>>>>> In Lute News N=B079, P.25, we can read that
>>>>>>> "The January
>>>>>> 2006 (Vol
>>>>>>> 24, N=B0 05) issue has a paper on the technique of
>>>>>>> using the left
>>>>>>> thumb, over the edge of the neck (seen
>>>>>>> in some renaissance lute paintings)" and often
>>>>>>> seen in folk guitar
>>>>>>> techniques. I suppose the article in question was
>>>>>>> "All Fingers and
>>>>>>> Thumbs" by Yehuda Schryer (that I have not read).
>>>>>>> The Iconography on a web page run by Jean-Marie
>>>>>>> Poirier shows this
>>>>>>> clearly (http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html).
>>>>>>> Several
>>>>>> members of
>>>>>>> the French lute list have suggested that this might
>>>>>>> only have
>>>>>> been on
>>>>>>> relatively narrow-necked 5 to 6 course lutes with a
>>>>>>> semi-circular
>>>>>>> section (rather than the later wider flatter
>>>>>>> necks). It has also
>>>>>> been
>>>>>>> suggested that on the lowest courses the diapason
>>>>>>> and octave would
>>>>>>> have been very close together, to assist in this
>>>>>>> "thumb-blocking".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It almost seems as though the neck-shape is
>>>>>>> intended to fit ;in
>>>>>> to the ;
>>>>>>> curve of the hand for this technique.
>>>>>>> However, I would like to ask if any of you actually
>>>>>>> hold this
>>>>>> type of
>>>>>>> lute in this way, and whether you adopt this thumb
>>>>>>> over diapason
>>>>>>> technique.
>>>>>>> Anthony
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Dr. Joachim Ludtke
>>>>>> Fruhlingsstra=DFe 9a
>>>>>> D - 93164 Laaber
>>>>>> Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
