Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
+1 On Jul 26, 2007, at 3:53 PM, Joseph Crawford wrote: +1 On 7/6/07, Derick Rethans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses, With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are allowed)! regards, Derick -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Joseph Crawford Jr. Zend Certified Engineer Codebowl Solutions, Inc. http://www.codebowl.com/ Blog: http://www.josephcrawford.com/ 1-802-671-2021 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Darrell Brogdon [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://darrell.brogdon.net * ** Prepare for PHP Certication!** ** http://phpflashcards.com** *
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
+1 On 7/6/07, Derick Rethans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses, With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are allowed)! regards, Derick -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Joseph Crawford Jr. Zend Certified Engineer Codebowl Solutions, Inc. http://www.codebowl.com/ Blog: http://www.josephcrawford.com/ 1-802-671-2021 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.2/894 - Release Date: 7/10/2007 5:44 PM -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
Do that on some other list please. --Jani On Fri, 2007-07-13 at 12:44 +0200, Marco wrote: > Hi All > > Now the announcement is on php.net should we start looking for volunteers to > help increase the amount of knowledge available for developers looking at > upgrading their code to PHP 5? Should I start a new thread to look for > volunteers? I for one am happy to help write some documentation in a wiki or > the like that can make the transition easier. > > Thoughts? > > Regards > > Marco -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
Hi All Now the announcement is on php.net should we start looking for volunteers to help increase the amount of knowledge available for developers looking at upgrading their code to PHP 5? Should I start a new thread to look for volunteers? I for one am happy to help write some documentation in a wiki or the like that can make the transition easier. Thoughts? Regards Marco
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:43:57 +0200, Sebastian Mendel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > chris# wrote: >> Sebastian Mendel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> chris# wrote: I think that same analogy applies to both versions of PHP - one > version is more suitable for one thing (your choice(s) here), and vise-a-versa. > Or; while PHP5 allows you to manifest functionality, PHP4 allows you to > tack it on. >>> i don't think so ... PHP 5 is always the better choice ... cause PHP 4 >>> development has stopped and support will end and you will get no more >>> security update after 2008-08-08(?) >> >> Does that somehow make it any less the language it is already? > > yes, cause the reason why PHP 4 is still out there is that some > applications > require PHP 4 and will not run on PHP 5 - so doing a PHP 4 only > application > or not fixing this application to run on PHP 5 hurts the whole community! > > cause PHP core developers need to maintain PHP 4 > PHP developers need to maintain PHP 4 compatibility in their applications > > hurting the whole community is a very good reason to stop using PHP4 or > creating/not updating applications running only on them > > >> Your response seems confusing to me. > > i don't want to protract this discussion ... but > > it just make no sense to develop for PHP 4! > and there are really no reasons to do so! > > except the fact to maintain compatibility for old PHP 4 servers > > and exactly this it is what all this discussion is about, stop the > requirement for developers to keep PHP 4 compatibility. > > > the question is not what PHP 4 is good for - the question is is it really > required to keep it at all costs? Point well taken. Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. > > > -- > Sebastian Mendel > > www.sebastianmendel.de > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
chris# wrote: > Sebastian Mendel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> chris# wrote: >>> I think that same analogy applies to both versions of PHP - one version >>> is >>> more suitable for one thing (your choice(s) here), and vise-a-versa. Or; >>> while PHP5 allows you to manifest functionality, PHP4 allows you to tack >>> it on. >> i don't think so ... PHP 5 is always the better choice ... cause PHP 4 >> development has stopped and support will end and you will get no more >> security update after 2008-08-08(?) > > Does that somehow make it any less the language it is already? yes, cause the reason why PHP 4 is still out there is that some applications require PHP 4 and will not run on PHP 5 - so doing a PHP 4 only application or not fixing this application to run on PHP 5 hurts the whole community! cause PHP core developers need to maintain PHP 4 PHP developers need to maintain PHP 4 compatibility in their applications hurting the whole community is a very good reason to stop using PHP4 or creating/not updating applications running only on them > Your response seems confusing to me. i don't want to protract this discussion ... but it just make no sense to develop for PHP 4! and there are really no reasons to do so! except the fact to maintain compatibility for old PHP 4 servers and exactly this it is what all this discussion is about, stop the requirement for developers to keep PHP 4 compatibility. the question is not what PHP 4 is good for - the question is is it really required to keep it at all costs? -- Sebastian Mendel www.sebastianmendel.de -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 7/12/07, David Coallier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 7/12/07, Tijnema <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 7/12/07, David Coallier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 7/11/07, Tijnema <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > On 7/11/07, Jeff Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > chris# wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:30:26 -0500, Larry Garfield <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > ...
> > > > >> The claim that is still repeated
> > > > >> that one "has to" rewrite everything to be OO in order to port to
PHP 5
> > > > >> is,
> > > > >> quite simply, FUD.
> > > >
> > > > > True. But then again, what's the point of using 5 if you're not
inclined, or
> > > > > have the need to write OO apps? It is simply alot of wasted language/
space
> > > > > and resources, as a whole. Hey! I don't need OO and I've already got
PHP4
> > > > > installed. Why bother with 5 at all?
> > > >
> > > > There are a number of nice features in PHP5 that have nothing to do with
> > > > actually creating your own classes or extending built-ins, such as (off
> > > > the top of my head):
> > > >
> > > > - file_get_contents()
> > > PHP 4 >= 4.3.0, PHP 5
> > >
> > > > - simplexml / DOM parsing / libxml2
> > > > - json_encode|decode
> > > JSON PECL extension can be installed for PHP >= 4.3.0
> > >
> > > > - stable APC
> > > > - SPL
> > > > - PDO ( although you can get it for 4.4, you can't depend on it being
> > > > there )
> > > > - backwards compatibility with lots of procedural PHP4 code =)
> > > >
> > > > If you're writing an app that does a lot of json or xml parsing or
> > > > output, *even if you don't use the class keyword anywhere in your own
> > > > code* PHP5 is a better language than PHP4. Drupal is a great example of
> > > > this because even though Drupal doesn't use classes, many Drupal devs
> > > > want to use PHP5 features in Drupal core. Right Larry?
> > > >
> > > > JeffG
> > >
> > > Except for the OO, I don't see anything that can't be done in PHP4,
> > > while it can be done in PHP5. Some workarounds are maybe needed, but
> > > it mostly doesn't require more than 10 lines of PHP code extra.
> > >
> >
> > file_put_contents (Probably the one you meant Jeff)
> any problems with fopen(), fwrite(), fclose()? It is exactly 2 lines more ;)
>
> > http_build_query
> foreach($array as $k => $v) {
> if(!isset($string)) {
> $string = "?".$k."=".$v;
> } else {
> $string .= "&".$k."=".$v;
> } }
Wow yeah great example! :)
now look at the docs http://php.net/http_build_query , and search for
"Example 2517. http_build_query() with complex arrays"
Make me the code for it, I want separators, and urlencoding of the
values, and complex arrays.
> That's 5 lines more ;)
Let's see :)
Exactly 10 lines, as I stated earlier "it mostly doesn't require more
than 10 lines of PHP code extra"
Does everything you want ;)
function http_build_query_php4($data, $a = "", $b = "") {
foreach($data as $k => $v) {
if(is_array($v)) {
$string .=
http_build_query_php4($v,$a.$k."%5B",$b."%5D");
} else {
$string = isset($string) ?
$string."&".$a.urlencode($k).$b."=".$v :
$a.urlencode($k).$b."=".$v;
}
}
return $string;
}
> > xslt* (yeah.. not xslt2.. still ;-) )
> PHP 4 >= 4.0.3 ;)
Ok I guess you really haven't use XSLTProcessor then ;-)
http://www.php.net/manual/en/ref.xsl.php
I thought he was referring to the xslt_* functions
http://www.php.net/xslt
I never used both, but they seem both OK to me.
the xslt_* functions will probably work fine for PHP4
> > streams (good ones)
> I've only wanted to use stream_get_contents a few times, but it wasn't
> available for PHP4 (My shared host), so I went back to fsockopen(),
> fread(),fclose() ;)
>
> >
> > There are so many functions that have changed... here:
> > http://cvs.php.net/viewvc.cgi/pear/PHP_Compat/Compat/Function/
>
> I know ;) But viewing it through the eye of an regular developer that
> doesn't use OO, PHP5 doesn't seem better than PHP4.
> But, This is NOT my opinion, I would love to go for PHP6 already :)
> I have PHP6 on my dev server at home, but if I write something for it,
> it won't run on my prod server running PHP4 (upgrading is planned in a
> month or so :) )
Change hosting company! :O
Would you change, if you get the current one for free? (including domains)
> I have PHP5 a my dev server now, and that does already cause a lot of
> trouble when I try to move it to my prod server. (The reason for my
> other mail)
> >
> >
> >
> > To reply to chris above there... yes you could have used any kind of
> > DOM in whatever browser and javascript, however, if you wanted to do
> > dom manipulation with php, you had to use the domxml pecl extension
> > (http://pecl.php.net/package/domxml) which was outdated from it's
> > first day (No offence to you chregu :P the extension was useful but
> > ugly and slow as a$$)
> >
> > What else.. I mean... seriously guys.. what the
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 7/12/07, Tijnema <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 7/12/07, David Coallier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 7/12/07, Tijnema <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 7/12/07, David Coallier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > On 7/11/07, Tijnema <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > On 7/11/07, Jeff Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > chris# wrote:
> > > > > > On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:30:26 -0500, Larry Garfield <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > ...
> > > > > >> The claim that is still repeated
> > > > > >> that one "has to" rewrite everything to be OO in order to port to
PHP 5
> > > > > >> is,
> > > > > >> quite simply, FUD.
> > > > >
> > > > > > True. But then again, what's the point of using 5 if you're not
inclined, or
> > > > > > have the need to write OO apps? It is simply alot of wasted
language/ space
> > > > > > and resources, as a whole. Hey! I don't need OO and I've already
got PHP4
> > > > > > installed. Why bother with 5 at all?
> > > > >
> > > > > There are a number of nice features in PHP5 that have nothing to do
with
> > > > > actually creating your own classes or extending built-ins, such as
(off
> > > > > the top of my head):
> > > > >
> > > > > - file_get_contents()
> > > > PHP 4 >= 4.3.0, PHP 5
> > > >
> > > > > - simplexml / DOM parsing / libxml2
> > > > > - json_encode|decode
> > > > JSON PECL extension can be installed for PHP >= 4.3.0
> > > >
> > > > > - stable APC
> > > > > - SPL
> > > > > - PDO ( although you can get it for 4.4, you can't depend on it being
> > > > > there )
> > > > > - backwards compatibility with lots of procedural PHP4 code =)
> > > > >
> > > > > If you're writing an app that does a lot of json or xml parsing or
> > > > > output, *even if you don't use the class keyword anywhere in your own
> > > > > code* PHP5 is a better language than PHP4. Drupal is a great example
of
> > > > > this because even though Drupal doesn't use classes, many Drupal devs
> > > > > want to use PHP5 features in Drupal core. Right Larry?
> > > > >
> > > > > JeffG
> > > >
> > > > Except for the OO, I don't see anything that can't be done in PHP4,
> > > > while it can be done in PHP5. Some workarounds are maybe needed, but
> > > > it mostly doesn't require more than 10 lines of PHP code extra.
> > > >
> > >
> > > file_put_contents (Probably the one you meant Jeff)
> > any problems with fopen(), fwrite(), fclose()? It is exactly 2 lines more ;)
> >
> > > http_build_query
> > foreach($array as $k => $v) {
> > if(!isset($string)) {
> > $string = "?".$k."=".$v;
> > } else {
> > $string .= "&".$k."=".$v;
> > } }
>
> Wow yeah great example! :)
>
> now look at the docs http://php.net/http_build_query , and search for
> "Example 2517. http_build_query() with complex arrays"
>
> Make me the code for it, I want separators, and urlencoding of the
> values, and complex arrays.
>
> > That's 5 lines more ;)
>
> Let's see :)
Exactly 10 lines, as I stated earlier "it mostly doesn't require more
than 10 lines of PHP code extra"
Does everything you want ;)
Before making me mad teling me that my code isn't urlencoding
everything properly, I updated ;)
function http_build_query_php4($data, $a = "", $b = "", $again = false) {
foreach($data as $k => $v) {
if(is_array($v)) {
$string .=
http_build_query_php4($v,$a.$k."%5B",$b."%5D",true);
} else {
$string = (!$again && !isset($string)) ?
$a.urlencode($k).$b."=".urlencode($v) :
$string."&".$a.urlencode($k).$b."=".urlencode($v);
}
}
return $string;
}
>
> > > xslt* (yeah.. not xslt2.. still ;-) )
> > PHP 4 >= 4.0.3 ;)
>
> Ok I guess you really haven't use XSLTProcessor then ;-)
> http://www.php.net/manual/en/ref.xsl.php
I thought he was referring to the xslt_* functions
http://www.php.net/xslt
I never used both, but they seem both OK to me.
the xslt_* functions will probably work fine for PHP4
>
>
> > > streams (good ones)
> > I've only wanted to use stream_get_contents a few times, but it wasn't
> > available for PHP4 (My shared host), so I went back to fsockopen(),
> > fread(),fclose() ;)
> >
> > >
> > > There are so many functions that have changed... here:
> > > http://cvs.php.net/viewvc.cgi/pear/PHP_Compat/Compat/Function/
> >
> > I know ;) But viewing it through the eye of an regular developer that
> > doesn't use OO, PHP5 doesn't seem better than PHP4.
> > But, This is NOT my opinion, I would love to go for PHP6 already :)
> > I have PHP6 on my dev server at home, but if I write something for it,
> > it won't run on my prod server running PHP4 (upgrading is planned in a
> > month or so :) )
>
> Change hosting company! :O
Would you change, if you get the current one for free? (including domains)
>
> > I have PHP5 a my dev server now, and that does already cause a lot of
> > trouble when I try to move it to my prod server. (The reason for my
> > other mail)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To reply to chris above there... yes you cou
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 7/12/07, Tijnema <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 7/12/07, David Coallier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 7/11/07, Tijnema <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 7/11/07, Jeff Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > chris# wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:30:26 -0500, Larry Garfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> > > ...
> > > >> The claim that is still repeated
> > > >> that one "has to" rewrite everything to be OO in order to port to PHP 5
> > > >> is,
> > > >> quite simply, FUD.
> > >
> > > > True. But then again, what's the point of using 5 if you're not
inclined, or
> > > > have the need to write OO apps? It is simply alot of wasted language/
space
> > > > and resources, as a whole. Hey! I don't need OO and I've already got
PHP4
> > > > installed. Why bother with 5 at all?
> > >
> > > There are a number of nice features in PHP5 that have nothing to do with
> > > actually creating your own classes or extending built-ins, such as (off
> > > the top of my head):
> > >
> > > - file_get_contents()
> > PHP 4 >= 4.3.0, PHP 5
> >
> > > - simplexml / DOM parsing / libxml2
> > > - json_encode|decode
> > JSON PECL extension can be installed for PHP >= 4.3.0
> >
> > > - stable APC
> > > - SPL
> > > - PDO ( although you can get it for 4.4, you can't depend on it being
> > > there )
> > > - backwards compatibility with lots of procedural PHP4 code =)
> > >
> > > If you're writing an app that does a lot of json or xml parsing or
> > > output, *even if you don't use the class keyword anywhere in your own
> > > code* PHP5 is a better language than PHP4. Drupal is a great example of
> > > this because even though Drupal doesn't use classes, many Drupal devs
> > > want to use PHP5 features in Drupal core. Right Larry?
> > >
> > > JeffG
> >
> > Except for the OO, I don't see anything that can't be done in PHP4,
> > while it can be done in PHP5. Some workarounds are maybe needed, but
> > it mostly doesn't require more than 10 lines of PHP code extra.
> >
>
> file_put_contents (Probably the one you meant Jeff)
any problems with fopen(), fwrite(), fclose()? It is exactly 2 lines more ;)
> http_build_query
foreach($array as $k => $v) {
if(!isset($string)) {
$string = "?".$k."=".$v;
} else {
$string .= "&".$k."=".$v;
} }
Wow yeah great example! :)
now look at the docs http://php.net/http_build_query , and search for
"Example 2517. http_build_query() with complex arrays"
Make me the code for it, I want separators, and urlencoding of the
values, and complex arrays.
That's 5 lines more ;)
Let's see :)
> xslt* (yeah.. not xslt2.. still ;-) )
PHP 4 >= 4.0.3 ;)
Ok I guess you really haven't use XSLTProcessor then ;-)
http://www.php.net/manual/en/ref.xsl.php
> streams (good ones)
I've only wanted to use stream_get_contents a few times, but it wasn't
available for PHP4 (My shared host), so I went back to fsockopen(),
fread(),fclose() ;)
>
> There are so many functions that have changed... here:
> http://cvs.php.net/viewvc.cgi/pear/PHP_Compat/Compat/Function/
I know ;) But viewing it through the eye of an regular developer that
doesn't use OO, PHP5 doesn't seem better than PHP4.
But, This is NOT my opinion, I would love to go for PHP6 already :)
I have PHP6 on my dev server at home, but if I write something for it,
it won't run on my prod server running PHP4 (upgrading is planned in a
month or so :) )
Change hosting company! :O
I have PHP5 a my dev server now, and that does already cause a lot of
trouble when I try to move it to my prod server. (The reason for my
other mail)
>
>
>
> To reply to chris above there... yes you could have used any kind of
> DOM in whatever browser and javascript, however, if you wanted to do
> dom manipulation with php, you had to use the domxml pecl extension
> (http://pecl.php.net/package/domxml) which was outdated from it's
> first day (No offence to you chregu :P the extension was useful but
> ugly and slow as a$$)
>
> What else.. I mean... seriously guys.. what the deuce ? Get over
> php4.. yeah made us all win money.. but now make real applications..
> if you need to make simple func scripts, go ahead, you even have more
> functions than ever..
>
>
>
>
> > Tijnema
> > --
> > Vote for PHP Color Coding in Gmail! -> http://gpcc.tijnema.info
> >
> > --
> > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> David Coallier,
> Founder & Software Architect,
> Agora Production (http://agoraproduction.com)
> 51.42.06.70.18
>
--
Vote for PHP Color Coding in Gmail! -> http://gpcc.tijnema.info
And not it's not a personal attack Tij :) Just my last refutation of
this thread. And now i'm letting you guys discuss it.. clearly, people
in charge have taken the decision about the date of RIP php4 so maybe
we should be celebrating ?
--
David Coallier,
Founder & Software Architect,
Agora Production (http://agoraproduction.com)
51.42.06.70.18
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To uns
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 12-Jul-07, at 4:23 AM, chris# wrote: ... Wholly agreed. But I'm not sure I see a big (any) real difference here. For example there are many similarities between 1.x and 2.x - even in the conf file(s). I have little difficulty cobbling a 1.x module out of a 2.x module. PHP5 never made any guarantee that PHP4 apps/classes/whatever would run in PHP5. I don't know. Maybe I didn't phrase it right. In short; I not suggesting that there be any /real/ change in the current/proposed/whatever "EOL"; Apache 1.3 is as stable as it's going to get. PHP4 is as stable as it's going to get. Apache 1.3 uncovers a security issue - Apache dev plugs it. PHP4 uncovers a security issue - PHP dev plugs it. Apache1.3 leads it's own life (without Apache 2.x). PHP4 leads it's own life (without PHP5). ppl continue to build modules for Apache 1.3 (without regard or care of Apache 2.x). ppl continue to build and use PHP4 (without care or regard for PHP5). Apache has a /huge/ install base. PHP4 has a /huge/ install base. Nobody "pitched a fit" when Apache 2 came out. This is where I see the Apache "EOL" as it /could/ apply to PHP4. This is how I see the parallel. So I thought it might be an easy solution with little (or no) opposition (on either side of the fence). ... There is a problem with comparing a Language that thousands of people write applications in with a web server that most people only ever configure, and that is that you are ignoring the issue of content (in this case, scripts written in PHP that need to either be compatible, or not). A better comparison might be something like Perl 4 vs Perl 5. While people may still run Perl 4 and maintain Perl 4 specific code, no-one thinks it is actually supported by anyone. Another comparison might be the current state of Visual Basic since .Net. But these cases also do not *exactly* fit the problem of PHP 4 because in these cases you don't have the same peculiar installed base of shared web hosts using old versions of cpanel. I'm with Marco - just make the announcement already. JeffG -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
The language for announcing PHP 4's funeral is already sorted out. The objections to it are all in the "some people say" camp. Let's just post it already and get back to arguing about what PHP 6 will offer. :-) +1 :-) Regards Marco
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Thursday 12 July 2007, chris# wrote: > Something just occurred to me that might satisfy both sides of the issue. > What about the way Apache handles their versions of Apache (1.x and 2.x). > That is to say; they haven't abandoned 1.3 (no surprise, as I think it > still has the biggest install base). They simply maintain security related > issues. ppl still continue to build modules for 1.3. ppl still continue to > run/install it. Apache doesn't hide it in some back corner. Everybody's > happy. Would this approach not be an acceptable "EOL" for PHP4? > Just a thought. That's where PHP 4.x has been for a long time now. That's the point. It's time to not even do that. Why is this thread still running? The language for announcing PHP 4's funeral is already sorted out. The objections to it are all in the "some people say" camp. Let's just post it already and get back to arguing about what PHP 6 will offer. :-) -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 11:51:39 +0100, Lester Caine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > chris# wrote: >> Something just occurred to me that might satisfy both sides of the > issue. >> What about the way Apache handles their versions of Apache (1.x and > 2.x). >> That is to say; they haven't abandoned 1.3 (no surprise, as I think it > still >> has the biggest install base). They simply maintain security related > issues. >> ppl still continue to build modules for 1.3. ppl still continue to > run/install it. >> Apache doesn't hide it in some back corner. Everybody's happy. Would > this >> approach not be an acceptable "EOL" for PHP4? >> Just a thought. > > But it does not get round the situation where people 'expect' PHP > applications > to RUN on PHP4 because PHP4 is available. Apache is a reasonable analogy, > but > there is a well defined divide between 1.x and 2.x installations and > people > developing for 2.x don't worry about 1.x. This division is not present in > PHP > so that even though PHP4 and PHP5 are different animals, the fact that a > PHP5 > application CAN be fixed to run on PHP4 means that there is an expectation > by > some that it WILL. We need some final break with PHP4 so that this > perception > is broken and new development does not have to hark back to past history? Wholly agreed. But I'm not sure I see a big (any) real difference here. For example there are many similarities between 1.x and 2.x - even in the conf file(s). I have little difficulty cobbling a 1.x module out of a 2.x module. PHP5 never made any guarantee that PHP4 apps/classes/whatever would run in PHP5. I don't know. Maybe I didn't phrase it right. In short; I not suggesting that there be any /real/ change in the current/proposed/whatever "EOL"; Apache 1.3 is as stable as it's going to get. PHP4 is as stable as it's going to get. Apache 1.3 uncovers a security issue - Apache dev plugs it. PHP4 uncovers a security issue - PHP dev plugs it. Apache1.3 leads it's own life (without Apache 2.x). PHP4 leads it's own life (without PHP5). ppl continue to build modules for Apache 1.3 (without regard or care of Apache 2.x). ppl continue to build and use PHP4 (without care or regard for PHP5). Apache has a /huge/ install base. PHP4 has a /huge/ install base. Nobody "pitched a fit" when Apache 2 came out. This is where I see the Apache "EOL" as it /could/ apply to PHP4. This is how I see the parallel. So I thought it might be an easy solution with little (or no) opposition (on either side of the fence). > > -- > Lester Caine - G8HFL > - > Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact > L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk > MEDW - http://home.lsces.co.uk/ModelEngineersDigitalWorkshop/ > Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
Something just occurred to me that might satisfy both sides of the issue. What about the way Apache handles their versions of Apache (1.x and 2.x). That is to say; they haven't abandoned 1.3 (no surprise, as I think it still has the biggest install base). They simply maintain security related issues. ppl still continue to build modules for 1.3. ppl still continue to run/install it. Apache doesn't hide it in some back corner. Everybody's happy. Would this approach not be an acceptable "EOL" for PHP4? People can still build it after it goes EOL, they just need to go to the php museum or use cvs to get old versions, AFAICS no-one is preventing that. Keeping it on the front page will be a mistake IMO. Software evolves and the only way to do it efficiently is to stop doing things the old way and use the new way. Maybe we should see if Microsoft will still release patches for Visual Basic 3? Lets just get on with dropping PHP 4 as agreed in the announcement (any idea when the announcement will be?). People that want to continue using PHP 4 are free to do so, while the rest of us get to move on, and whilst the hosts know if they want to have secure servers then they will need to start looking at migration, we have given them plenty (more than plenty possibly) of notice so they can also inform their customers to start reviewing their scripts, most of the open source scripts I have checked, have supported PHP 5 for a while now and those that don't either update or loose their install base. IMO discussing keeping php 4 alive forever is a waste of time. Regards Marco
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
chris# wrote: Something just occurred to me that might satisfy both sides of the issue. What about the way Apache handles their versions of Apache (1.x and 2.x). That is to say; they haven't abandoned 1.3 (no surprise, as I think it still has the biggest install base). They simply maintain security related issues. ppl still continue to build modules for 1.3. ppl still continue to run/install it. Apache doesn't hide it in some back corner. Everybody's happy. Would this approach not be an acceptable "EOL" for PHP4? Just a thought. But it does not get round the situation where people 'expect' PHP applications to RUN on PHP4 because PHP4 is available. Apache is a reasonable analogy, but there is a well defined divide between 1.x and 2.x installations and people developing for 2.x don't worry about 1.x. This division is not present in PHP so that even though PHP4 and PHP5 are different animals, the fact that a PHP5 application CAN be fixed to run on PHP4 means that there is an expectation by some that it WILL. We need some final break with PHP4 so that this perception is broken and new development does not have to hark back to past history? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk MEDW - http://home.lsces.co.uk/ModelEngineersDigitalWorkshop/ Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 11:04:53 +0200, Sebastian Mendel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > chris# schrieb: >> >> >> On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:18:17 -0400, "David Coallier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: >>> On 7/11/07, Tijnema <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 7/11/07, Jeff Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > chris# wrote: >> On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:30:26 -0500, Larry Garfield >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ... >>> The claim that is still repeated >>> that one "has to" rewrite everything to be OO in order to port to >>> PHP 5 >>> is, >>> quite simply, FUD. >> True. But then again, what's the point of using 5 if you're not >>> inclined, or >> have the need to write OO apps? It is simply alot of wasted >>> language/ space >> and resources, as a whole. Hey! I don't need OO and I've already got >>> PHP4 >> installed. Why bother with 5 at all? > There are a number of nice features in PHP5 that have nothing to do >>> with > actually creating your own classes or extending built-ins, such as >>> (off > the top of my head): > > - file_get_contents() PHP 4 >= 4.3.0, PHP 5 > - simplexml / DOM parsing / libxml2 > - json_encode|decode JSON PECL extension can be installed for PHP >= 4.3.0 > - stable APC > - SPL > - PDO ( although you can get it for 4.4, you can't depend on it > being > there ) > - backwards compatibility with lots of procedural PHP4 code =) > > If you're writing an app that does a lot of json or xml parsing or > output, *even if you don't use the class keyword anywhere in your own > code* PHP5 is a better language than PHP4. Drupal is a great example >>> of > this because even though Drupal doesn't use classes, many Drupal devs > want to use PHP5 features in Drupal core. Right Larry? > > JeffG Except for the OO, I don't see anything that can't be done in PHP4, while it can be done in PHP5. Some workarounds are maybe needed, but it mostly doesn't require more than 10 lines of PHP code extra. >>> file_put_contents (Probably the one you meant Jeff) >>> http_build_query >>> xslt* (yeah.. not xslt2.. still ;-) ) >>> streams (good ones) >>> >>> There are so many functions that have changed... here: >>> http://cvs.php.net/viewvc.cgi/pear/PHP_Compat/Compat/Function/ >>> >>> >>> >>> To reply to chris above there... yes you could have used any kind of >>> DOM in whatever browser and javascript, however, if you wanted to do >>> dom manipulation with php, you had to use the domxml pecl extension >>> (http://pecl.php.net/package/domxml) which was outdated from it's >>> first day (No offence to you chregu :P the extension was useful but >>> ugly and slow as a$$) >>> >>> What else.. I mean... seriously guys.. what the deuce ? Get over >>> php4.. yeah made us all win money.. but now make real applications.. >>> if you need to make simple func scripts, go ahead, you even have more >>> functions than ever.. >> Unfortunately my original point has become obscured by hair splitting. >> I was done with this "hair splitting" when I stated that I liked /both/ >> versions - each for different reasons. It's like a comment made earlier >> regarding the use of assembler. >> Consider the following... >> Assembler is fastest by far - at shifting bits. Can I use it to create > and >> run web pages/applications? Yes. But just because it is the fastest > language >> for shifting bits, doesn't make the best language for the web - unless > you >> were making a web server with it (not out of it). >> I think that same analogy applies to both versions of PHP - one version > is >> more suitable for one thing (your choice(s) here), and vise-a-versa. Or; >> while PHP5 allows you to manifest functionality, PHP4 allows you to tack >> it on. > > i don't think so ... PHP 5 is always the better choice ... cause PHP 4 > development has stopped and support will end and you will get no more > security update after 2008-08-08(?) Does that somehow make it any less the language it is already? Your response seems confusing to me. > > > > -- > Sebastian Mendel > > www.sebastianmendel.de > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 07:13:07 +0100, Lester Caine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Tijnema wrote: >> Yes, that's what I meant to say, they can be implemented on top of, >> just like the above mentioned json, it is implemented on top of too. >> But, that means that a regular PHP programmer doesn't need PHP5 for >> his scripts (except for OO if they want). Do you think it matters to >> them if their scripts run on PHP4 or PHP5? > > THIS is the basic problem. There is no reason that - with a certain amount > of > tidying up - current PHP4 code could not just be run on PHP5. If you don't > like OO you don't need to use it and nothing in PHP5 REQUIRES that it is > used. > >> And so, most will stuck on, "If it isn't broken, don't fix it". Since >> PHP4 isn't really broken, a lot people won't "fix it". > > I think that is what is currently being said. As from now on you use PHP4 > at > your own risk and nothing more will be fixed. Personally I STARTED with > PHP5 > even before it was released as I had simply ASSUMED that PHP4 would be > phased > out long before now, but I am getting more and more bogged down with > people > complaining that my PHP5 stuff will not work on PHP4. Up until now I have > tried to oblige, but we need this definitive statement and a proper > movement > forward otherwise we will have to support stuff across PHP4,5 and 6. > > Having SAID that - the problems with things being broken between different > VERSIONS of PHP5.x are the REAL reason that PHP5 take up has not been so > good. > I STILL haven't got some of my code to RUN on PHP5.2 - although I suspect > that > the main reason is the fact that it DOES still run in PHP4! ( And PHP5.1 > ). So > this is another reason for wanting to be able to say - all new development > is > PHP5.2 only use version xxx for PHP4 but no further work will be done on > that > branch, and end of lifeing PHP4 would at least encourage that. Something just occurred to me that might satisfy both sides of the issue. What about the way Apache handles their versions of Apache (1.x and 2.x). That is to say; they haven't abandoned 1.3 (no surprise, as I think it still has the biggest install base). They simply maintain security related issues. ppl still continue to build modules for 1.3. ppl still continue to run/install it. Apache doesn't hide it in some back corner. Everybody's happy. Would this approach not be an acceptable "EOL" for PHP4? Just a thought. > > -- > Lester Caine - G8HFL > - > Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact > L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk > MEDW - http://home.lsces.co.uk/ModelEngineersDigitalWorkshop/ > Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 7/12/07, David Coallier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 7/11/07, Tijnema <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 7/11/07, Jeff Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > chris# wrote:
> > > On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:30:26 -0500, Larry Garfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> > ...
> > >> The claim that is still repeated
> > >> that one "has to" rewrite everything to be OO in order to port to PHP 5
> > >> is,
> > >> quite simply, FUD.
> >
> > > True. But then again, what's the point of using 5 if you're not inclined,
or
> > > have the need to write OO apps? It is simply alot of wasted language/
space
> > > and resources, as a whole. Hey! I don't need OO and I've already got PHP4
> > > installed. Why bother with 5 at all?
> >
> > There are a number of nice features in PHP5 that have nothing to do with
> > actually creating your own classes or extending built-ins, such as (off
> > the top of my head):
> >
> > - file_get_contents()
> PHP 4 >= 4.3.0, PHP 5
>
> > - simplexml / DOM parsing / libxml2
> > - json_encode|decode
> JSON PECL extension can be installed for PHP >= 4.3.0
>
> > - stable APC
> > - SPL
> > - PDO ( although you can get it for 4.4, you can't depend on it being
> > there )
> > - backwards compatibility with lots of procedural PHP4 code =)
> >
> > If you're writing an app that does a lot of json or xml parsing or
> > output, *even if you don't use the class keyword anywhere in your own
> > code* PHP5 is a better language than PHP4. Drupal is a great example of
> > this because even though Drupal doesn't use classes, many Drupal devs
> > want to use PHP5 features in Drupal core. Right Larry?
> >
> > JeffG
>
> Except for the OO, I don't see anything that can't be done in PHP4,
> while it can be done in PHP5. Some workarounds are maybe needed, but
> it mostly doesn't require more than 10 lines of PHP code extra.
>
file_put_contents (Probably the one you meant Jeff)
any problems with fopen(), fwrite(), fclose()? It is exactly 2 lines more ;)
http_build_query
foreach($array as $k => $v) {
if(!isset($string)) {
$string = "?".$k."=".$v;
} else {
$string .= "&".$k."=".$v;
} }
That's 5 lines more ;)
xslt* (yeah.. not xslt2.. still ;-) )
PHP 4 >= 4.0.3 ;)
streams (good ones)
I've only wanted to use stream_get_contents a few times, but it wasn't
available for PHP4 (My shared host), so I went back to fsockopen(),
fread(),fclose() ;)
There are so many functions that have changed... here:
http://cvs.php.net/viewvc.cgi/pear/PHP_Compat/Compat/Function/
I know ;) But viewing it through the eye of an regular developer that
doesn't use OO, PHP5 doesn't seem better than PHP4.
But, This is NOT my opinion, I would love to go for PHP6 already :)
I have PHP6 on my dev server at home, but if I write something for it,
it won't run on my prod server running PHP4 (upgrading is planned in a
month or so :) )
I have PHP5 a my dev server now, and that does already cause a lot of
trouble when I try to move it to my prod server. (The reason for my
other mail)
To reply to chris above there... yes you could have used any kind of
DOM in whatever browser and javascript, however, if you wanted to do
dom manipulation with php, you had to use the domxml pecl extension
(http://pecl.php.net/package/domxml) which was outdated from it's
first day (No offence to you chregu :P the extension was useful but
ugly and slow as a$$)
What else.. I mean... seriously guys.. what the deuce ? Get over
php4.. yeah made us all win money.. but now make real applications..
if you need to make simple func scripts, go ahead, you even have more
functions than ever..
> Tijnema
> --
> Vote for PHP Color Coding in Gmail! -> http://gpcc.tijnema.info
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>
--
David Coallier,
Founder & Software Architect,
Agora Production (http://agoraproduction.com)
51.42.06.70.18
--
Vote for PHP Color Coding in Gmail! -> http://gpcc.tijnema.info
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 11:04 +0200, Sebastian Mendel wrote: > i don't think so ... PHP 5 is always the better choice ... cause PHP 4 > development has stopped and support will end and you will get no more > security update after 2008-08-08(?) Actually this has been the de-facto state of PHP 4 for a long time now. Only fixes have gone in PHP_4_4 branch and most of those have been security related or fixing some crash bug.. We're just making it official now.. :) --Jani -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 7/12/07, Richard Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Wed, July 11, 2007 4:40 pm, Tijnema wrote: > Except for the OO, I don't see anything that can't be done in PHP4, > while it can be done in PHP5. Some workarounds are maybe needed, but > it mostly doesn't require more than 10 lines of PHP code extra. The SOAP / XML stuff is like night and day. You're not talking 10 lines of code. You're talking hundreds of lines of wack-o code that doesn't really do the job right, and with some squeegy hacks to get at attributes buried within the XML tags, if you can get to them at all... I should've added, "Except for the SOAP/XML stuff" ;) Tijnema -- Vote for PHP Color Coding in Gmail! -> http://gpcc.tijnema.info -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
chris# schrieb: > > > On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:18:17 -0400, "David Coallier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: >> On 7/11/07, Tijnema <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> On 7/11/07, Jeff Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: chris# wrote: > On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:30:26 -0500, Larry Garfield >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ... >> The claim that is still repeated >> that one "has to" rewrite everything to be OO in order to port to >> PHP 5 >> is, >> quite simply, FUD. > True. But then again, what's the point of using 5 if you're not >> inclined, or > have the need to write OO apps? It is simply alot of wasted >> language/ space > and resources, as a whole. Hey! I don't need OO and I've already got >> PHP4 > installed. Why bother with 5 at all? There are a number of nice features in PHP5 that have nothing to do >> with actually creating your own classes or extending built-ins, such as >> (off the top of my head): - file_get_contents() >>> PHP 4 >= 4.3.0, PHP 5 >>> - simplexml / DOM parsing / libxml2 - json_encode|decode >>> JSON PECL extension can be installed for PHP >= 4.3.0 >>> - stable APC - SPL - PDO ( although you can get it for 4.4, you can't depend on it being there ) - backwards compatibility with lots of procedural PHP4 code =) If you're writing an app that does a lot of json or xml parsing or output, *even if you don't use the class keyword anywhere in your own code* PHP5 is a better language than PHP4. Drupal is a great example >> of this because even though Drupal doesn't use classes, many Drupal devs want to use PHP5 features in Drupal core. Right Larry? JeffG >>> Except for the OO, I don't see anything that can't be done in PHP4, >>> while it can be done in PHP5. Some workarounds are maybe needed, but >>> it mostly doesn't require more than 10 lines of PHP code extra. >>> >> file_put_contents (Probably the one you meant Jeff) >> http_build_query >> xslt* (yeah.. not xslt2.. still ;-) ) >> streams (good ones) >> >> There are so many functions that have changed... here: >> http://cvs.php.net/viewvc.cgi/pear/PHP_Compat/Compat/Function/ >> >> >> >> To reply to chris above there... yes you could have used any kind of >> DOM in whatever browser and javascript, however, if you wanted to do >> dom manipulation with php, you had to use the domxml pecl extension >> (http://pecl.php.net/package/domxml) which was outdated from it's >> first day (No offence to you chregu :P the extension was useful but >> ugly and slow as a$$) >> >> What else.. I mean... seriously guys.. what the deuce ? Get over >> php4.. yeah made us all win money.. but now make real applications.. >> if you need to make simple func scripts, go ahead, you even have more >> functions than ever.. > Unfortunately my original point has become obscured by hair splitting. > I was done with this "hair splitting" when I stated that I liked /both/ > versions - each for different reasons. It's like a comment made earlier > regarding the use of assembler. > Consider the following... > Assembler is fastest by far - at shifting bits. Can I use it to create and > run web pages/applications? Yes. But just because it is the fastest language > for shifting bits, doesn't make the best language for the web - unless you > were making a web server with it (not out of it). > I think that same analogy applies to both versions of PHP - one version is > more suitable for one thing (your choice(s) here), and vise-a-versa. Or; > while PHP5 allows you to manifest functionality, PHP4 allows you to tack > it on. i don't think so ... PHP 5 is always the better choice ... cause PHP 4 development has stopped and support will end and you will get no more security update after 2008-08-08(?) -- Sebastian Mendel www.sebastianmendel.de -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:18:17 -0400, "David Coallier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 7/11/07, Tijnema <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On 7/11/07, Jeff Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > chris# wrote: >> > > On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:30:26 -0500, Larry Garfield > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > ... >> > >> The claim that is still repeated >> > >> that one "has to" rewrite everything to be OO in order to port to > PHP 5 >> > >> is, >> > >> quite simply, FUD. >> > >> > > True. But then again, what's the point of using 5 if you're not > inclined, or >> > > have the need to write OO apps? It is simply alot of wasted > language/ space >> > > and resources, as a whole. Hey! I don't need OO and I've already got > PHP4 >> > > installed. Why bother with 5 at all? >> > >> > There are a number of nice features in PHP5 that have nothing to do > with >> > actually creating your own classes or extending built-ins, such as > (off >> > the top of my head): >> > >> > - file_get_contents() >> PHP 4 >= 4.3.0, PHP 5 >> >> > - simplexml / DOM parsing / libxml2 >> > - json_encode|decode >> JSON PECL extension can be installed for PHP >= 4.3.0 >> >> > - stable APC >> > - SPL >> > - PDO ( although you can get it for 4.4, you can't depend on it being >> > there ) >> > - backwards compatibility with lots of procedural PHP4 code =) >> > >> > If you're writing an app that does a lot of json or xml parsing or >> > output, *even if you don't use the class keyword anywhere in your own >> > code* PHP5 is a better language than PHP4. Drupal is a great example > of >> > this because even though Drupal doesn't use classes, many Drupal devs >> > want to use PHP5 features in Drupal core. Right Larry? >> > >> > JeffG >> >> Except for the OO, I don't see anything that can't be done in PHP4, >> while it can be done in PHP5. Some workarounds are maybe needed, but >> it mostly doesn't require more than 10 lines of PHP code extra. >> > > file_put_contents (Probably the one you meant Jeff) > http_build_query > xslt* (yeah.. not xslt2.. still ;-) ) > streams (good ones) > > There are so many functions that have changed... here: > http://cvs.php.net/viewvc.cgi/pear/PHP_Compat/Compat/Function/ > > > > To reply to chris above there... yes you could have used any kind of > DOM in whatever browser and javascript, however, if you wanted to do > dom manipulation with php, you had to use the domxml pecl extension > (http://pecl.php.net/package/domxml) which was outdated from it's > first day (No offence to you chregu :P the extension was useful but > ugly and slow as a$$) > > What else.. I mean... seriously guys.. what the deuce ? Get over > php4.. yeah made us all win money.. but now make real applications.. > if you need to make simple func scripts, go ahead, you even have more > functions than ever.. Unfortunately my original point has become obscured by hair splitting. I was done with this "hair splitting" when I stated that I liked /both/ versions - each for different reasons. It's like a comment made earlier regarding the use of assembler. Consider the following... Assembler is fastest by far - at shifting bits. Can I use it to create and run web pages/applications? Yes. But just because it is the fastest language for shifting bits, doesn't make the best language for the web - unless you were making a web server with it (not out of it). I think that same analogy applies to both versions of PHP - one version is more suitable for one thing (your choice(s) here), and vise-a-versa. Or; while PHP5 allows you to manifest functionality, PHP4 allows you to tack it on. Thank you for taking the time to respond. > > > > >> Tijnema >> -- >> Vote for PHP Color Coding in Gmail! -> http://gpcc.tijnema.info >> >> -- >> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List >> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php >> >> > > > -- > David Coallier, > Founder & Software Architect, > Agora Production (http://agoraproduction.com) > 51.42.06.70.18 / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
David Coallier schrieb: > On 7/11/07, Tijnema <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On 7/11/07, Jeff Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > chris# wrote: >> > > On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:30:26 -0500, Larry Garfield >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > ... >> > >> The claim that is still repeated >> > >> that one "has to" rewrite everything to be OO in order to port to >> PHP 5 >> > >> is, >> > >> quite simply, FUD. >> > >> > > True. But then again, what's the point of using 5 if you're not >> inclined, or >> > > have the need to write OO apps? It is simply alot of wasted >> language/ space >> > > and resources, as a whole. Hey! I don't need OO and I've already >> got PHP4 >> > > installed. Why bother with 5 at all? >> > >> > There are a number of nice features in PHP5 that have nothing to do >> with >> > actually creating your own classes or extending built-ins, such as (off >> > the top of my head): >> > >> > - file_get_contents() >> PHP 4 >= 4.3.0, PHP 5 >> >> > - simplexml / DOM parsing / libxml2 >> > - json_encode|decode >> JSON PECL extension can be installed for PHP >= 4.3.0 >> >> > - stable APC >> > - SPL >> > - PDO ( although you can get it for 4.4, you can't depend on it being >> > there ) >> > - backwards compatibility with lots of procedural PHP4 code =) >> > >> > If you're writing an app that does a lot of json or xml parsing or >> > output, *even if you don't use the class keyword anywhere in your own >> > code* PHP5 is a better language than PHP4. Drupal is a great example of >> > this because even though Drupal doesn't use classes, many Drupal devs >> > want to use PHP5 features in Drupal core. Right Larry? >> > >> > JeffG >> >> Except for the OO, I don't see anything that can't be done in PHP4, >> while it can be done in PHP5. Some workarounds are maybe needed, but >> it mostly doesn't require more than 10 lines of PHP code extra. >> > > file_put_contents (Probably the one you meant Jeff) > http_build_query > xslt* (yeah.. not xslt2.. still ;-) ) > streams (good ones) > > There are so many functions that have changed... here: > http://cvs.php.net/viewvc.cgi/pear/PHP_Compat/Compat/Function/ better look here http://cvs.php.net/viewvc.cgi/pear/PHP_Compat/Compat/Components.php?view=markup and this includes only these ones that can be rebuild in user space ... and native they are much faster! -- Sebastian Mendel www.sebastianmendel.de -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
Tijnema wrote: Yes, that's what I meant to say, they can be implemented on top of, just like the above mentioned json, it is implemented on top of too. But, that means that a regular PHP programmer doesn't need PHP5 for his scripts (except for OO if they want). Do you think it matters to them if their scripts run on PHP4 or PHP5? THIS is the basic problem. There is no reason that - with a certain amount of tidying up - current PHP4 code could not just be run on PHP5. If you don't like OO you don't need to use it and nothing in PHP5 REQUIRES that it is used. And so, most will stuck on, "If it isn't broken, don't fix it". Since PHP4 isn't really broken, a lot people won't "fix it". I think that is what is currently being said. As from now on you use PHP4 at your own risk and nothing more will be fixed. Personally I STARTED with PHP5 even before it was released as I had simply ASSUMED that PHP4 would be phased out long before now, but I am getting more and more bogged down with people complaining that my PHP5 stuff will not work on PHP4. Up until now I have tried to oblige, but we need this definitive statement and a proper movement forward otherwise we will have to support stuff across PHP4,5 and 6. Having SAID that - the problems with things being broken between different VERSIONS of PHP5.x are the REAL reason that PHP5 take up has not been so good. I STILL haven't got some of my code to RUN on PHP5.2 - although I suspect that the main reason is the fact that it DOES still run in PHP4! ( And PHP5.1 ). So this is another reason for wanting to be able to say - all new development is PHP5.2 only use version xxx for PHP4 but no further work will be done on that branch, and end of lifeing PHP4 would at least encourage that. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk MEDW - http://home.lsces.co.uk/ModelEngineersDigitalWorkshop/ Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Wednesday 11 July 2007, Jeff Griffiths wrote: > If you're writing an app that does a lot of json or xml parsing or > output, *even if you don't use the class keyword anywhere in your own > code* PHP5 is a better language than PHP4. Drupal is a great example of > this because even though Drupal doesn't use classes, many Drupal devs > want to use PHP5 features in Drupal core. Right Larry? > > JeffG I think the proper term is "chomping at the bit". :-) I don't know if Drupal 7 will stay class-free (I'm hoping to move it to PDO, which means at least some classes), but even without that a lot of people are giddy. :-) -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 19:54 -0500, Richard Lynch wrote: > On Wed, July 11, 2007 7:48 pm, Jeff Griffiths wrote: > > Richard Lynch wrote: > >> On Wed, July 11, 2007 4:40 pm, Tijnema wrote: > >>> Except for the OO, I don't see anything that can't be done in PHP4, > >>> while it can be done in PHP5. Some workarounds are maybe needed, > >>> but > >>> it mostly doesn't require more than 10 lines of PHP code extra. > >> > >> The SOAP / XML stuff is like night and day. > >> > >> You're not talking 10 lines of code. > >> > >> You're talking hundreds of lines of wack-o code that doesn't really > >> do > >> the job right, and with some squeegy hacks to get at attributes > >> buried > >> within the XML tags, if you can get to them at all... > > > > That reminds me of one of my all-time fave bits in the online docs - > > all the comments for xml_parse_into_struct(): > > > > http://ca.php.net/xml_parse_into_struct > > > > Basically, *years* of people sharing various generic 'xml2array'-like > > functions and classes that would work in both 4 and 5. > > I don't think you can actually call any of them "working" though... > :-) > > Seriously, they all have some kind of irresolvable issue that you're > going to run into sooner or later if you try to parse XML from a > diverse set of sources. > > Anybody using PHP 4 for heavy SOAP/XML usage is just daft, imho. :-) I've had no problem with the xml_xxx functions... but as you said, it wasn't 10 lines of code :) http://www.interjinn.com/jinnDoc/interJinn.class.JinnSimpleXml.phtml Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 7/11/07, Tijnema <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 7/11/07, Jeff Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > chris# wrote: > > On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:30:26 -0500, Larry Garfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ... > >> The claim that is still repeated > >> that one "has to" rewrite everything to be OO in order to port to PHP 5 > >> is, > >> quite simply, FUD. > > > True. But then again, what's the point of using 5 if you're not inclined, or > > have the need to write OO apps? It is simply alot of wasted language/ space > > and resources, as a whole. Hey! I don't need OO and I've already got PHP4 > > installed. Why bother with 5 at all? > > There are a number of nice features in PHP5 that have nothing to do with > actually creating your own classes or extending built-ins, such as (off > the top of my head): > > - file_get_contents() PHP 4 >= 4.3.0, PHP 5 > - simplexml / DOM parsing / libxml2 > - json_encode|decode JSON PECL extension can be installed for PHP >= 4.3.0 > - stable APC > - SPL > - PDO ( although you can get it for 4.4, you can't depend on it being > there ) > - backwards compatibility with lots of procedural PHP4 code =) > > If you're writing an app that does a lot of json or xml parsing or > output, *even if you don't use the class keyword anywhere in your own > code* PHP5 is a better language than PHP4. Drupal is a great example of > this because even though Drupal doesn't use classes, many Drupal devs > want to use PHP5 features in Drupal core. Right Larry? > > JeffG Except for the OO, I don't see anything that can't be done in PHP4, while it can be done in PHP5. Some workarounds are maybe needed, but it mostly doesn't require more than 10 lines of PHP code extra. file_put_contents (Probably the one you meant Jeff) http_build_query xslt* (yeah.. not xslt2.. still ;-) ) streams (good ones) There are so many functions that have changed... here: http://cvs.php.net/viewvc.cgi/pear/PHP_Compat/Compat/Function/ To reply to chris above there... yes you could have used any kind of DOM in whatever browser and javascript, however, if you wanted to do dom manipulation with php, you had to use the domxml pecl extension (http://pecl.php.net/package/domxml) which was outdated from it's first day (No offence to you chregu :P the extension was useful but ugly and slow as a$$) What else.. I mean... seriously guys.. what the deuce ? Get over php4.. yeah made us all win money.. but now make real applications.. if you need to make simple func scripts, go ahead, you even have more functions than ever.. Tijnema -- Vote for PHP Color Coding in Gmail! -> http://gpcc.tijnema.info -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- David Coallier, Founder & Software Architect, Agora Production (http://agoraproduction.com) 51.42.06.70.18 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Wed, July 11, 2007 7:48 pm, Jeff Griffiths wrote: > Richard Lynch wrote: >> On Wed, July 11, 2007 4:40 pm, Tijnema wrote: >>> Except for the OO, I don't see anything that can't be done in PHP4, >>> while it can be done in PHP5. Some workarounds are maybe needed, >>> but >>> it mostly doesn't require more than 10 lines of PHP code extra. >> >> The SOAP / XML stuff is like night and day. >> >> You're not talking 10 lines of code. >> >> You're talking hundreds of lines of wack-o code that doesn't really >> do >> the job right, and with some squeegy hacks to get at attributes >> buried >> within the XML tags, if you can get to them at all... > > That reminds me of one of my all-time fave bits in the online docs - > all the comments for xml_parse_into_struct(): > > http://ca.php.net/xml_parse_into_struct > > Basically, *years* of people sharing various generic 'xml2array'-like > functions and classes that would work in both 4 and 5. I don't think you can actually call any of them "working" though... :-) Seriously, they all have some kind of irresolvable issue that you're going to run into sooner or later if you try to parse XML from a diverse set of sources. Anybody using PHP 4 for heavy SOAP/XML usage is just daft, imho. :-) -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
Richard Lynch wrote: On Wed, July 11, 2007 4:40 pm, Tijnema wrote: Except for the OO, I don't see anything that can't be done in PHP4, while it can be done in PHP5. Some workarounds are maybe needed, but it mostly doesn't require more than 10 lines of PHP code extra. The SOAP / XML stuff is like night and day. You're not talking 10 lines of code. You're talking hundreds of lines of wack-o code that doesn't really do the job right, and with some squeegy hacks to get at attributes buried within the XML tags, if you can get to them at all... That reminds me of one of my all-time fave bits in the online docs - all the comments for xml_parse_into_struct(): http://ca.php.net/xml_parse_into_struct Basically, *years* of people sharing various generic 'xml2array'-like functions and classes that would work in both 4 and 5. JG -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Wed, July 11, 2007 4:40 pm, Tijnema wrote: > Except for the OO, I don't see anything that can't be done in PHP4, > while it can be done in PHP5. Some workarounds are maybe needed, but > it mostly doesn't require more than 10 lines of PHP code extra. The SOAP / XML stuff is like night and day. You're not talking 10 lines of code. You're talking hundreds of lines of wack-o code that doesn't really do the job right, and with some squeegy hacks to get at attributes buried within the XML tags, if you can get to them at all... -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 01:22 +0200, Tijnema wrote: > Yes, that's what I meant to say, they can be implemented on top of, > just like the above mentioned json, it is implemented on top of too. You can also use Assembler for doing anything PHP can do - and chances are high that this is faster than using PHP. If you don't see any benefit with PHP 5 it's fine, others do. If you disagree with the consensus the developers made feel free to support PHP 4 yourself once it's completely abandoned from us. I hope we can finish this discussion now. johannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 7/12/07, Jeff Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Tijnema wrote: > On 7/11/07, Jeff Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ... >> - file_get_contents() > PHP 4 >= 4.3.0, PHP 5 D'oh! Thanks for the history lesson. ;) >> - simplexml / DOM parsing / libxml2 >> - json_encode|decode > JSON PECL extension can be installed for PHP >= 4.3.0 It *can* be, but it is compiled by default in PHP 5.2, which is the version recommended by we in the 'go php5 go!' crowd. It's critical for projects like Drupal to consider what the base features are and develop for that. There are also PHP based versions of the json_encode/decode functions, and they could be used too if json isn't available, it works on every php version AFAIK. So, if you need it in PHP4, it is there, but of course it's better to know for sure that the functions built in can be used safely without having to worry if the user will have them ;) ... > Except for the OO, I don't see anything that can't be done in PHP4, > while it can be done in PHP5. Some workarounds are maybe needed, but > it mostly doesn't require more than 10 lines of PHP code extra. Most of what I mentioned could be implemented on top of PHP 4, but that's not the same as being implemented *in* PHP 5.2 and compiled by default. JeffG Yes, that's what I meant to say, they can be implemented on top of, just like the above mentioned json, it is implemented on top of too. But, that means that a regular PHP programmer doesn't need PHP5 for his scripts (except for OO if they want). Do you think it matters to them if their scripts run on PHP4 or PHP5? And so, most will stuck on, "If it isn't broken, don't fix it". Since PHP4 isn't really broken, a lot people won't "fix it". Tijnema -- Vote for PHP Color Coding in Gmail! -> http://gpcc.tijnema.info -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
Tijnema wrote: On 7/11/07, Jeff Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ... - file_get_contents() PHP 4 >= 4.3.0, PHP 5 D'oh! Thanks for the history lesson. - simplexml / DOM parsing / libxml2 - json_encode|decode JSON PECL extension can be installed for PHP >= 4.3.0 It *can* be, but it is compiled by default in PHP 5.2, which is the version recommended by we in the 'go php5 go!' crowd. It's critical for projects like Drupal to consider what the base features are and develop for that. ... Except for the OO, I don't see anything that can't be done in PHP4, while it can be done in PHP5. Some workarounds are maybe needed, but it mostly doesn't require more than 10 lines of PHP code extra. Most of what I mentioned could be implemented on top of PHP 4, but that's not the same as being implemented *in* PHP 5.2 and compiled by default. JeffG -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 7/11/07, Jeff Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: chris# wrote: > On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:30:26 -0500, Larry Garfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ... >> The claim that is still repeated >> that one "has to" rewrite everything to be OO in order to port to PHP 5 >> is, >> quite simply, FUD. > True. But then again, what's the point of using 5 if you're not inclined, or > have the need to write OO apps? It is simply alot of wasted language/ space > and resources, as a whole. Hey! I don't need OO and I've already got PHP4 > installed. Why bother with 5 at all? There are a number of nice features in PHP5 that have nothing to do with actually creating your own classes or extending built-ins, such as (off the top of my head): - file_get_contents() PHP 4 >= 4.3.0, PHP 5 - simplexml / DOM parsing / libxml2 - json_encode|decode JSON PECL extension can be installed for PHP >= 4.3.0 - stable APC - SPL - PDO ( although you can get it for 4.4, you can't depend on it being there ) - backwards compatibility with lots of procedural PHP4 code =) If you're writing an app that does a lot of json or xml parsing or output, *even if you don't use the class keyword anywhere in your own code* PHP5 is a better language than PHP4. Drupal is a great example of this because even though Drupal doesn't use classes, many Drupal devs want to use PHP5 features in Drupal core. Right Larry? JeffG Except for the OO, I don't see anything that can't be done in PHP4, while it can be done in PHP5. Some workarounds are maybe needed, but it mostly doesn't require more than 10 lines of PHP code extra. Tijnema -- Vote for PHP Color Coding in Gmail! -> http://gpcc.tijnema.info -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:12:35 -0700, Jeff Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > chris# wrote: >> On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:30:26 -0500, Larry Garfield > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ... >>> The claim that is still repeated >>> that one "has to" rewrite everything to be OO in order to port to PHP 5 >>> is, >>> quite simply, FUD. > >> True. But then again, what's the point of using 5 if you're not > inclined, or >> have the need to write OO apps? It is simply alot of wasted language/ > space >> and resources, as a whole. Hey! I don't need OO and I've already got > PHP4 >> installed. Why bother with 5 at all? > > There are a number of nice features in PHP5 that have nothing to do with > actually creating your own classes or extending built-ins, such as (off > the top of my head): > > - file_get_contents() > - simplexml / DOM parsing / libxml2 As memory serves; DOM is already available to developers whether you use PHP or not. I seem to remember messing around with it back in the mid-90's When JavaScript and DHTML were all the rage, and Netscape and Sun Microsystems were touting their version of JavaScript and a bunch of DEV tools to go along with it. Of course I am using DOM all the time now - especially since it's readily accessible in XHTML and CSS-2.x. :) > - json_encode|decode JSON may indeed be available in PHP5 but PHP5 is not a prerequisite to using JSON at all. As a matter of fact, I'm enjoying JSON in the web based mail reader I'm using right now - which is running of a PHP4 base install. :) > - stable APC > - SPL > - PDO ( although you can get it for 4.4, you can't depend on it being > there ) > - backwards compatibility with lots of procedural PHP4 code =) Just a hunch; but I can't help but wonder if more backward compatibility had been included in 5, 5 would have been more highly favored/chosen. Just a hunch tho. > > If you're writing an app that does a lot of json or xml parsing or > output, *even if you don't use the class keyword anywhere in your own > code* PHP5 is a better language than PHP4. Drupal is a great example of > this because even though Drupal doesn't use classes, many Drupal devs > want to use PHP5 features in Drupal core. Right Larry? Technically speaking; I'm not sure you can call OO a feature if you're (for what ever reason) ever inclined to use it. Point being; if you're not using it, if can only be considered /overhead/. But I won't argue the fact that OO can indeed be considered a feature. On that note; would it have made any sense at all to provide OO in the form of a module? Is that even possible? Does runkit lend itself to accomplishing this? Could something like this be the /big/ feature /advancement/ that 6 offers - along with the enhanced UTF support, of course. :) Thanks for taking the time to respond. > > JeffG / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:06:02 +0200, Sebastian Mendel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > +1 > > Guilherme Blanco schrieb: > >> Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad? > > it was badly advertised! Can't argue with that. :) > > most people don't even know how much faster it is! Technically speaking, I'd have to insert a /can/ here. On that note; has anyone done any testing/ benchmark work with graph(s) or data reports to substantiate any of this? Seems like it would sure be /good/ advertising. > to say nothing about of all the new features not known by most developers! Again; a nice comparison list would sure work well. With maybe a link on php.net pointing to it. Say --> What are the differences between PHP4 and PHP5 --> link to feature difference chart. Or --> performance gains using PHP5 --> link to statistical analysis numbers/graphs/data. > (of course - most people here now them) :) > > last but not least the missing functionality to easily setup used PHP > version per directory ... giving hosters the tool to make their customers > an > easy way to adopt/test their sites ... Speaking of such things; if anyone was willing to provide me a decent outline for accomplishing this, I'd be willing to do a work-up on the analysis mentioned above. Not to mention; document my experience and steps to accomplish the "parallel" install. Thanks for taking the time to respond. > > > -- > Sebastian Mendel > > www.sebastianmendel.de > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
chris# wrote: On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:30:26 -0500, Larry Garfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ... The claim that is still repeated that one "has to" rewrite everything to be OO in order to port to PHP 5 is, quite simply, FUD. True. But then again, what's the point of using 5 if you're not inclined, or have the need to write OO apps? It is simply alot of wasted language/ space and resources, as a whole. Hey! I don't need OO and I've already got PHP4 installed. Why bother with 5 at all? There are a number of nice features in PHP5 that have nothing to do with actually creating your own classes or extending built-ins, such as (off the top of my head): - file_get_contents() - simplexml / DOM parsing / libxml2 - json_encode|decode - stable APC - SPL - PDO ( although you can get it for 4.4, you can't depend on it being there ) - backwards compatibility with lots of procedural PHP4 code =) If you're writing an app that does a lot of json or xml parsing or output, *even if you don't use the class keyword anywhere in your own code* PHP5 is a better language than PHP4. Drupal is a great example of this because even though Drupal doesn't use classes, many Drupal devs want to use PHP5 features in Drupal core. Right Larry? JeffG -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
Stut schrieb: > Sebastian Mendel wrote: >> Guilherme Blanco schrieb: >>> Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad? >> >> it was badly advertised! >> >> most people don't even know how much faster it is! > > Is it really faster? From what I've read over the past few years the ^^ > general opinion is that it's slower. I'd be interested in any material > you have to back up that statement. while moving from 4 to 5(.2) i had setup 4 as mod and 5 as CGI, i always print out execution at the bottom of my page - in overall PHP 5 was 10% to 15% faster than PHP 4 ... even as CGI -- Sebastian Mendel www.sebastianmendel.de -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007, Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: > On 11.07.2007, at 14:06, Sebastian Mendel wrote: > > > Guilherme Blanco schrieb: > > > > > Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so > > > bad? > > > > it was badly advertised! > > > > most people don't even know how much faster it is! to say nothing > > about of all the new features not known by most developers! (of > > course - most people here now them) > > well actually php 5.0 was slower for many things .. objects where > slightly faster. 5.1 and now 5.2 bring the performance/quality up to > where things where with php 4 at the time. Actually, in some of our tests some of our code running on PHP 5 is just as fast as the code on PHP 4+APC. That's heavy OO though. Derick -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 11.07.2007, at 15:11, David Coallier wrote: On 7/11/07, Lukas Kahwe Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 11.07.2007, at 14:06, Sebastian Mendel wrote: > +1 > > Guilherme Blanco schrieb: > >> Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad? > > it was badly advertised! > > most people don't even know how much faster it is! > to say nothing about of all the new features not known by most > developers! > (of course - most people here now them) well actually php 5.0 was slower for many things .. objects where slightly faster. 5.1 and now 5.2 bring the performance/quality up to where things where with php 4 at the time. Fun :)) After 4 years php5 is now as fast as php4 :O well now i would assume its faster ... especially since the amount of OO happy code has increased. the last round of benchmarks i remember showed 5.1 to be more or less on par or faster. so now with 5.2 i would hope that we are now mostly faster across the board. would be nice to have performance regression measurement as part of the test suite. regards, Lukas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 7/11/07, Lukas Kahwe Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 11.07.2007, at 14:06, Sebastian Mendel wrote: > +1 > > Guilherme Blanco schrieb: > >> Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad? > > it was badly advertised! > > most people don't even know how much faster it is! > to say nothing about of all the new features not known by most > developers! > (of course - most people here now them) well actually php 5.0 was slower for many things .. objects where slightly faster. 5.1 and now 5.2 bring the performance/quality up to where things where with php 4 at the time. Fun :)) After 4 years php5 is now as fast as php4 :O regards, Lukas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- David Coallier, Founder & Software Architect, Agora Production (http://agoraproduction.com) 51.42.06.70.18 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 11.07.2007, at 14:06, Sebastian Mendel wrote: +1 Guilherme Blanco schrieb: Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad? it was badly advertised! most people don't even know how much faster it is! to say nothing about of all the new features not known by most developers! (of course - most people here now them) well actually php 5.0 was slower for many things .. objects where slightly faster. 5.1 and now 5.2 bring the performance/quality up to where things where with php 4 at the time. regards, Lukas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
Sebastian Mendel wrote: Guilherme Blanco schrieb: Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad? it was badly advertised! most people don't even know how much faster it is! Is it really faster? From what I've read over the past few years the general opinion is that it's slower. I'd be interested in any material you have to back up that statement. -Stut -- http://stut.net/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
+1 Guilherme Blanco schrieb: > Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad? it was badly advertised! most people don't even know how much faster it is! to say nothing about of all the new features not known by most developers! (of course - most people here now them) last but not least the missing functionality to easily setup used PHP version per directory ... giving hosters the tool to make their customers an easy way to adopt/test their sites ... -- Sebastian Mendel www.sebastianmendel.de -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
Almost, I want to change the 2nd paragraph to: Hereby the PHP development team announces that support for PHP 4 will continue until the end of this year only. After 2007-12-31 there will be no more releases of PHP 4.4. We will continue to make critical security fixes available on a case-by-case basis until 2008-08-08. Please use the rest of this year to make your application suitable to run on PHP 5. Looks good to me! Regards Marco
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007, Pierre wrote: > On 7/10/07, Derick Rethans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Pierre wrote: > > > > > On 7/9/07, Derick Rethans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On Fri, 6 Jul 2007, Andi Gutmans wrote: > > > > > > > > > I'd suggest something close to what Rasmus suggested: a) We > > > > > make a clear statement on PHP.net that at the end of the year > > > > > we plan to discontinue bug fixes for PHP 4 except for security > > > > > fixes. b) We will discontinue supporting PHP 4 on 8/8/8 > > > > > (because it sounds good and gives people about a year). > > > > > > > > The attached patch mentions the above. As you can see, the idea > > > > is to release this on the 13th, 3 years after php 5 was released > > > > for this first time. > > > > > > First thanks for the patch! > > > > I changed the first two paragraphs to: > > > > > > Today it is exactly three years ago since PHP 5 has been released. In > > those three years it has seen many improvements over PHP 4. PHP 5 is > > fast, stable & production-ready and as PHP 6 is on the way, PHP 4 > > will be discontinued. > > > > > > Hereby the PHP development team announces that support for PHP 4 will > > continue until the end of this year only. After 2007-12-31 there will > > be no more releases of PHP 4.4. In case security issues might arise after > > this date, we will consider making security-only releases up to > > 2008-08-08. > > Please use the rest of this year to make your application suitable to > > run on PHP 5. > > > > > > I think that reads better. > > It is perfect, well done :) Almost, I want to change the 2nd paragraph to: Hereby the PHP development team announces that support for PHP 4 will continue until the end of this year only. After 2007-12-31 there will be no more releases of PHP 4.4. We will continue to make critical security fixes available on a case-by-case basis until 2008-08-08. Please use the rest of this year to make your application suitable to run on PHP 5. regards, Derick -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 7/10/07, Derick Rethans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Pierre wrote: > On 7/9/07, Derick Rethans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Fri, 6 Jul 2007, Andi Gutmans wrote: > > > > > I'd suggest something close to what Rasmus suggested: > > > a) We make a clear statement on PHP.net that at the end of the year we > > > plan to discontinue bug fixes for PHP 4 except for security fixes. > > > b) We will discontinue supporting PHP 4 on 8/8/8 (because it sounds good > > > and gives people about a year). > > > > The attached patch mentions the above. As you can see, the idea is to > > release this on the 13th, 3 years after php 5 was released for this > > first time. > > First thanks for the patch! I changed the first two paragraphs to: Today it is exactly three years ago since PHP 5 has been released. In those three years it has seen many improvements over PHP 4. PHP 5 is fast, stable & production-ready and as PHP 6 is on the way, PHP 4 will be discontinued. Hereby the PHP development team announces that support for PHP 4 will continue until the end of this year only. After 2007-12-31 there will be no more releases of PHP 4.4. In case security issues might arise after this date, we will consider making security-only releases up to 2008-08-08. Please use the rest of this year to make your application suitable to run on PHP 5. I think that reads better. It is perfect, well done :) Merci! --Pierre -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:30:26 -0500, Larry Garfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tuesday 10 July 2007, chris# wrote: > >> > Better docs on how to run PHP 4 and PHP 5 at the same time would > likely >> > be helpful, and someone is working on that for GoPHP5.org, I think. >> > However, your claim that "you have millions... of lines of code that > have >> > to be nearly >> > completely rewritten to be usable in PHP 5" is not true. Sure, you > could >> > completely rewrite your app, but unless you're doing something very > very >> > dependent on objects passing by value porting a PHP 4 app to run >> > correctly in >> > PHP 5 is not the herculean task that some make it out to be. You >> > don't /have/ to rewrite everything to use objects. Even the > procedural >> > code >> > is easier, with the extra array manipulation routines. :-) >> > >> > That sounds like more of a marketing issue. >> >> Greetings, and thanks for the response. >> For the sake of clarity; I was /not/ indicating that /I/ had millions of >> lines of code to /completely/ rewrite. But rather that there /are/ > millions >> (perhaps billions) of lines of code that need to be rewritten on the >> Internet in various applications/ libraries/classes, etc... > > Yes, I understood that you mean "there exists millions, perhaps billions > of > lines". However, I disagree with you on that point. :-) The only way > that's > possible, IMO, is if you're counting every installed copy of WordPress or > Joomla or Drupal or PHPBB or whatever separately. And of course, most of > the > widely-installed OSS apps are already quite happy on PHP 5, even if they > don't leverage its full potential. Fair enough. I have to admit, I had been up for too many hours when seeing your response, and jumped on a reply w/o giving the answer adequate thought - see; reactive. ;) I'll meet you somewhere in the middle on this one. :) > >> And for many, this seems quite - as you put it, the herculean task. >> Remember, most ppl using PHP on their pages depend on others to write > their >> pages/applications/ utilities. They go to >> sourceforge/freshmeat/phpclasses/hotscripts download something that > appeals >> to them and discover that it don't werk on the PHP5 boxen their ISP/ >> hosting provider offers. So they discover they need to fix it to make it >> work. To most - whom know very little about programming in PHP, this is >> quite a feat. So as most in the world; they take the >> least-line-of-resistance and find a PHP4 hosting provider. > > Honestly, it's 2007. Actually half way to '08 ;) > Any PHP apps that are not yet compatible with PHP 5 at > all are either (1) internal apps that exist once and never leave the > server > they're on or (2) abandoned. Now, who's overstating? > Someone could still be writing code for > them, > but if the developer hasn't even addressed PHP 5 compatibility yet then > the > application is abandoned. Again, an overstatement. But I'll venture to respond... You're overall response presupposes that everyone feels the same about PHP5 as you do - embraces it. This however, is naïeve. As PHP4 still has the largest install base. NOTE: Before anyone starts labeling/accusing me as a PHP5 hater. Let me set the record straight right now: I love /each/ version for different reasons, and will be forever grateful to the developers for it's inception/creation and continued development. I Hope this is now clear. /NOTE > Users of the application at this point should > be > looking for a replacement app anyway, independent of anything we do. Assuming that they have any intention of moving to 5. Is it not also possible that they are hoping for a solution that gives them a bridge from 4 to 5? Or hoping that 6 will fall somewhere between 4 & 5 - providing the best of both worlds? Given that they all know that PHP & Co. knows most of the PHP users aren't flocking to 5. Remember the saying; ppl will most generally always take the least line of resistance. :) > >> Bottom line; >> there are zillions of PHP thingies out there that were all written for > PHP4 >> - far more than are available for 5. So until many (most?) of them have >> been re-written (more accurately; adapted) for PHP5, PHP4 will still be > a >> /big/ contender - like it or not. > > See above. By this point they've all been adapted or abandoned. Adapting > may > be herculean for your average web surfer, but they're not the target > audience. The target market is PHP developers (for whom it is not > herculean) > or server admins (who, from what I've seen, are already moving to PHP 5 > even > if the stats end up skewed). Sure. I'll go with you where many developers are concerned. But as Admins go; I'm not convinced that they possess the same savvy that PHP developers do. Their skills are more centered around scripting, and proc management. Which is far more perl oriented that PHP - if either. It's usually bash/sh or rc (again bash/sh). Indeed. They have knowledge of PHP. But more in a g
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Tuesday 10 July 2007, chris# wrote: > > Better docs on how to run PHP 4 and PHP 5 at the same time would likely > > be helpful, and someone is working on that for GoPHP5.org, I think. > > However, your claim that "you have millions... of lines of code that have > > to be nearly > > completely rewritten to be usable in PHP 5" is not true. Sure, you could > > completely rewrite your app, but unless you're doing something very very > > dependent on objects passing by value porting a PHP 4 app to run > > correctly in > > PHP 5 is not the herculean task that some make it out to be. You > > don't /have/ to rewrite everything to use objects. Even the procedural > > code > > is easier, with the extra array manipulation routines. :-) > > > > That sounds like more of a marketing issue. > > Greetings, and thanks for the response. > For the sake of clarity; I was /not/ indicating that /I/ had millions of > lines of code to /completely/ rewrite. But rather that there /are/ millions > (perhaps billions) of lines of code that need to be rewritten on the > Internet in various applications/ libraries/classes, etc... Yes, I understood that you mean "there exists millions, perhaps billions of lines". However, I disagree with you on that point. :-) The only way that's possible, IMO, is if you're counting every installed copy of WordPress or Joomla or Drupal or PHPBB or whatever separately. And of course, most of the widely-installed OSS apps are already quite happy on PHP 5, even if they don't leverage its full potential. > And for many, this seems quite - as you put it, the herculean task. > Remember, most ppl using PHP on their pages depend on others to write their > pages/applications/ utilities. They go to > sourceforge/freshmeat/phpclasses/hotscripts download something that appeals > to them and discover that it don't werk on the PHP5 boxen their ISP/ > hosting provider offers. So they discover they need to fix it to make it > work. To most - whom know very little about programming in PHP, this is > quite a feat. So as most in the world; they take the > least-line-of-resistance and find a PHP4 hosting provider. Honestly, it's 2007. Any PHP apps that are not yet compatible with PHP 5 at all are either (1) internal apps that exist once and never leave the server they're on or (2) abandoned. Someone could still be writing code for them, but if the developer hasn't even addressed PHP 5 compatibility yet then the application is abandoned. Users of the application at this point should be looking for a replacement app anyway, independent of anything we do. > Bottom line; > there are zillions of PHP thingies out there that were all written for PHP4 > - far more than are available for 5. So until many (most?) of them have > been re-written (more accurately; adapted) for PHP5, PHP4 will still be a > /big/ contender - like it or not. See above. By this point they've all been adapted or abandoned. Adapting may be herculean for your average web surfer, but they're not the target audience. The target market is PHP developers (for whom it is not herculean) or server admins (who, from what I've seen, are already moving to PHP 5 even if the stats end up skewed). > OH, before I forget to respond; PHP5 is a > completely different animal than PHP4 for the average user. Sure. If you > were familiar with Java/Script it all looks quite familiar - technically > any OO language for that matter. Hell, I've been with PHP since it's > creation, coming from years with perl and converting most of my trusty > scripts to PHP. I also discovered many ways to write PHP4 as pseudo OO. > Like many I suppose. Anyway, speaking of the past; I remember there being > quite bit of resistance to the OO flavor that PHP5 offered. Perhaps it > lingers still. Well, here's looking forward to feasible solutions to > offering multiversions on most PHP hosters. ;) There's still a lot of resistance to OO. There probably always will be, regardless of language. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just one tool and style among many. (Now, if we can get true functional programming ability in PHP as well, then watch the fur fly! ) And that's why it's also a red-herring. One can write perfectly capable, perfectly good PHP 5 without ever using the "class" keyword. The claim that is still repeated that one "has to" rewrite everything to be OO in order to port to PHP 5 is, quite simply, FUD. Oh yes, and there is no such thing as Java/Script. Java is a pure-OO language. Javascript is a semi-functional prototype language. The only things they have in common are their first four letters. :-) > Thanks again for the response. Cheers. -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as lo
RE: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
I wouldn't say "consider" in releasing security fixes. I would say that we won't make any more releases except in cases of security bugs. Andi > -Original Message- > From: Derick Rethans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 12:34 AM > To: Pierre > Cc: PHP Developers Mailing List > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4? > > On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Pierre wrote: > > > On 7/9/07, Derick Rethans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Fri, 6 Jul 2007, Andi Gutmans wrote: > > > > > > > I'd suggest something close to what Rasmus suggested: > > > > a) We make a clear statement on PHP.net that at the end of the > > > > year we plan to discontinue bug fixes for PHP 4 except > for security fixes. > > > > b) We will discontinue supporting PHP 4 on 8/8/8 (because it > > > > sounds good and gives people about a year). > > > > > > The attached patch mentions the above. As you can see, > the idea is > > > to release this on the 13th, 3 years after php 5 was > released for > > > this first time. > > > > First thanks for the patch! > > I changed the first two paragraphs to: > > > Today it is exactly three years ago since PHP 5 has been > released. In > those three years it has seen many improvements over PHP 4. PHP 5 is > fast, stable & production-ready and as PHP 6 is on the > way, PHP 4 > will be discontinued. > > > Hereby the PHP development team announces that support for > PHP 4 will > continue until the end of this year only. After 2007-12-31 > there will > be no more releases of PHP 4.4. In case security issues > might arise after > this date, we will consider making security-only releases > up to 2008-08-08. > Please use the rest of this year to make your application > suitable to > run on PHP 5. > > > I think that reads better. > > Derick > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To > unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
My 2 cents... As of XX-XX-2007, it will have been 3 years since the release of PHP 5. In these 3 years many improvements have been implemented over PHP 4 and PHP 5 can now be considered fast, stable & production ready. With PHP 6 in active development PHP 4 development will now be discontinued. Hereby the PHP development team announces that support for PHP 4 will be discontinued as of 2007-12-31, after this date there will be no more releases of PHP 4.4. Security issue's found in PHP 4.4 after this date will be evaluated for severity and the development team will consider relasing security updates until 2008-08-08. Please use the rest of this year to make your application suitable to run on PHP 5. Regards Marco
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Tue, Jul 10, 2007 at 01:09:35AM -0700, chris# wrote: > No offense, I can't resist... Neither can I: > >Today has been exactly three years since PHP 5 was released. In >those three years it has seen many improvements over PHP 4. PHP 5 is >fast, stable & production-ready and as PHP 6 is on the way, PHP 4 s/&/&/ >will soon be discontinued. > > >As such, the PHP development team announces that support for PHP 4 will >continue only until the end of this year. After 2007-12-31 there will >be no further releases of PHP 4.4. Except in cases of security issues > that may arise. >Security-only releases will also terminate on 2008-08-08. >We strongly recommend upgrading your applications to PHP 5. > > > -- Alain Williams Linux Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php #include -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 09:34:12 +0200 (CEST), Derick Rethans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Pierre wrote: > >> On 7/9/07, Derick Rethans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > On Fri, 6 Jul 2007, Andi Gutmans wrote: >> > >> > > I'd suggest something close to what Rasmus suggested: >> > > a) We make a clear statement on PHP.net that at the end of the year > we >> > > plan to discontinue bug fixes for PHP 4 except for security fixes. >> > > b) We will discontinue supporting PHP 4 on 8/8/8 (because it sounds > good >> > > and gives people about a year). >> > >> > The attached patch mentions the above. As you can see, the idea is to >> > release this on the 13th, 3 years after php 5 was released for this >> > first time. >> >> First thanks for the patch! > > I changed the first two paragraphs to: > No offense, I can't resist... Today has been exactly three years since PHP 5 was released. In those three years it has seen many improvements over PHP 4. PHP 5 is fast, stable & production-ready and as PHP 6 is on the way, PHP 4 will soon be discontinued. As such, the PHP development team announces that support for PHP 4 will continue only until the end of this year. After 2007-12-31 there will be no further releases of PHP 4.4. Except in cases of security issues that may arise. Security-only releases will also terminate on 2008-08-08. We strongly recommend upgrading your applications to PHP 5. > > I think that reads better. I like this even better. ;) Thoughts? > > Derick > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 00:56:16 -0500, Larry Garfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Monday 09 July 2007, chris# wrote: > >> I will venture to say that the biggest issue was; no transition period. >> That is to say that PHP4 and PHP5 are two completely different > creatures. >> There was no "morphing" period. After several years of working with > PHP3/4 >> in this fashion, /suddenly/ most of those rules no longer applied (in >> PHP5). You've got millions - perhaps billions of lines of code that have > to >> be nearly completely rewritten to be usable in PHP5. Perhaps a better >> solution would be to document an answer to running PHP4, PHP5, and PHP6 > on >> the same boxen for the most popular OS's. Then there would be little > reason >> for anyone not to adopt any version(s) of their choosing, and little > reason >> to complain about an EOL. Seems a sure answer to me. > > Better docs on how to run PHP 4 and PHP 5 at the same time would likely be > helpful, and someone is working on that for GoPHP5.org, I think. However, > your claim that "you have millions... of lines of code that have to be > nearly > completely rewritten to be usable in PHP 5" is not true. Sure, you could > completely rewrite your app, but unless you're doing something very very > dependent on objects passing by value porting a PHP 4 app to run correctly > in > PHP 5 is not the herculean task that some make it out to be. You > don't /have/ to rewrite everything to use objects. Even the procedural > code > is easier, with the extra array manipulation routines. :-) > > That sounds like more of a marketing issue. Greetings, and thanks for the response. For the sake of clarity; I was /not/ indicating that /I/ had millions of lines of code to /completely/ rewrite. But rather that there /are/ millions (perhaps billions) of lines of code that need to be rewritten on the Internet in various applications/ libraries/classes, etc... And for many, this seems quite - as you put it, the herculean task. Remember, most ppl using PHP on their pages depend on others to write their pages/applications/ utilities. They go to sourceforge/freshmeat/phpclasses/hotscripts download something that appeals to them and discover that it don't werk on the PHP5 boxen their ISP/ hosting provider offers. So they discover they need to fix it to make it work. To most - whom know very little about programming in PHP, this is quite a feat. So as most in the world; they take the least-line-of-resistance and find a PHP4 hosting provider. Bottom line; there are zillions of PHP thingies out there that were all written for PHP4 - far more than are available for 5. So until many (most?) of them have been re-written (more accurately; adapted) for PHP5, PHP4 will still be a /big/ contender - like it or not. OH, before I forget to respond; PHP5 is a completely different animal than PHP4 for the average user. Sure. If you were familiar with Java/Script it all looks quite familiar - technically any OO language for that matter. Hell, I've been with PHP since it's creation, coming from years with perl and converting most of my trusty scripts to PHP. I also discovered many ways to write PHP4 as pseudo OO. Like many I suppose. Anyway, speaking of the past; I remember there being quite bit of resistance to the OO flavor that PHP5 offered. Perhaps it lingers still. Well, here's looking forward to feasible solutions to offering multiversions on most PHP hosters. ;) Thanks again for the response. > > -- > Larry GarfieldAIM: LOLG42 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 > > "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of > exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, > which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to > himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the > possession > of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- > Thomas > Jefferson > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Pierre wrote: > On 7/9/07, Derick Rethans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Fri, 6 Jul 2007, Andi Gutmans wrote: > > > > > I'd suggest something close to what Rasmus suggested: > > > a) We make a clear statement on PHP.net that at the end of the year we > > > plan to discontinue bug fixes for PHP 4 except for security fixes. > > > b) We will discontinue supporting PHP 4 on 8/8/8 (because it sounds good > > > and gives people about a year). > > > > The attached patch mentions the above. As you can see, the idea is to > > release this on the 13th, 3 years after php 5 was released for this > > first time. > > First thanks for the patch! I changed the first two paragraphs to: Today it is exactly three years ago since PHP 5 has been released. In those three years it has seen many improvements over PHP 4. PHP 5 is fast, stable & production-ready and as PHP 6 is on the way, PHP 4 will be discontinued. Hereby the PHP development team announces that support for PHP 4 will continue until the end of this year only. After 2007-12-31 there will be no more releases of PHP 4.4. In case security issues might arise after this date, we will consider making security-only releases up to 2008-08-08. Please use the rest of this year to make your application suitable to run on PHP 5. I think that reads better. Derick -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 00:52:27 -0500, Larry Garfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Monday 09 July 2007, chris# wrote: >> OK. I can't help but notice the overall underwhelming reception to PHP5 >> (mostly by ISP's). Which begs the question /why/? Shouldn't /that/ be > the >> question? Or maybe I should ask: Has anybody bothered to find out why > the >> majority of PHP installers /prefer/ PHP4? I am quite sure that if those >> questions were answered, the poll you are attempting to take now would > be >> moot. Don't you? > > I don't claim to have made a scientific study of the subject, but from > what > I've seen so far web hosts fall into one of the following categories: > > 1) We offer PHP 5 only. > 2) We offer PHP 5 and PHP 4 as an option if you ask/tweak .htaccess. > 3) We offer PHP 4 and PHP 5 as an option if you ask/tweak .htaccess. > 4) We offer PHP 4 and PHP 5, and you explicitly pick one when signing up. > 5) We don't offer PHP 5 yet because we haven't figured out how to do that > in > cPanel and we're afraid of breaking stuff. Hello, and thanks for taking the time to respond. > > I've actually been pleasantly surprised to find that group 5 seems to be a > minority. There's a fair number of hosts in groups 3 and 4 that, I think, > artificially deflate PHP 5's numbers. That's made developers gun-shy. I have noticed a growing trend to offer both. Frankly, I think that you're correct in #5 being in the (growing) minority. But I believe this is all due to the lack of how-to/documentation for providing a reliable process to run multiple versions of PHP on the same boxen. Truth be known; I spent two entire days searching for a reliable and straight-forward approach to doing just that. The closest thing I discovered in meeting that goal was running two PHP installs in two different directories (PHP4 as base install in default dir: php and PHP5 in same $prefix but in php5 dir) then running php as Apache lib and assigning libphp5.so to PHP5 enabled folder (or extension - .php5) and assigning libphp4.so as default and for .php. This works fine for *BSD because of the way *BSD loads libraries. But not so for most other *NIX like OS's - most notably Linux. So, while this method will work fine for me and my 50+ *BSD server farm. It isn't /even/ a good "generic" method for the Internet at large. Probably the best solution would be for one of the seasoned developers whom undoubtedly runs more than one version on his/her boxen as a necessity, to share their experience in achieving this working environment. Better still; posting this prominently on the front page of the php.net site (or the documentation page). That way it would eliminate (or nearly) all fear of offering more (or all) versions of PHP, and PHP4 would simply fade away as ppl can more easily migrate to 5, or 6 without giving it a second thought. > > How are the Nexen stats compiled? Johannes has said that he "has > statistics" > showing that PHP 5 has 60% of the market, not 20%. > > Quoth Ben Franklin, "there are likes, damned lies, and statistics." But > at > this point I don't think the situation is as dire as everyone seems to > think. > The huge flood of hosts we had signing up with GoPHP5 in the first day, > combined with the other hosts I've spoken to, suggest that simple inertia > is > the problem at this point, not simply "no hosts offer it". I would also contend that there is also an incentive to listing their site on your page, as it gives them higher visibility. :) This, of course skews the results. Thanks again for the response. > > -- > Larry GarfieldAIM: LOLG42 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 > > "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of > exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, > which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to > himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the > possession > of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- > Thomas > Jefferson > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Monday 09 July 2007, chris# wrote: > I will venture to say that the biggest issue was; no transition period. > That is to say that PHP4 and PHP5 are two completely different creatures. > There was no "morphing" period. After several years of working with PHP3/4 > in this fashion, /suddenly/ most of those rules no longer applied (in > PHP5). You've got millions - perhaps billions of lines of code that have to > be nearly completely rewritten to be usable in PHP5. Perhaps a better > solution would be to document an answer to running PHP4, PHP5, and PHP6 on > the same boxen for the most popular OS's. Then there would be little reason > for anyone not to adopt any version(s) of their choosing, and little reason > to complain about an EOL. Seems a sure answer to me. Better docs on how to run PHP 4 and PHP 5 at the same time would likely be helpful, and someone is working on that for GoPHP5.org, I think. However, your claim that "you have millions... of lines of code that have to be nearly completely rewritten to be usable in PHP 5" is not true. Sure, you could completely rewrite your app, but unless you're doing something very very dependent on objects passing by value porting a PHP 4 app to run correctly in PHP 5 is not the herculean task that some make it out to be. You don't /have/ to rewrite everything to use objects. Even the procedural code is easier, with the extra array manipulation routines. :-) That sounds like more of a marketing issue. -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Monday 09 July 2007, chris# wrote: > OK. I can't help but notice the overall underwhelming reception to PHP5 > (mostly by ISP's). Which begs the question /why/? Shouldn't /that/ be the > question? Or maybe I should ask: Has anybody bothered to find out why the > majority of PHP installers /prefer/ PHP4? I am quite sure that if those > questions were answered, the poll you are attempting to take now would be > moot. Don't you? I don't claim to have made a scientific study of the subject, but from what I've seen so far web hosts fall into one of the following categories: 1) We offer PHP 5 only. 2) We offer PHP 5 and PHP 4 as an option if you ask/tweak .htaccess. 3) We offer PHP 4 and PHP 5 as an option if you ask/tweak .htaccess. 4) We offer PHP 4 and PHP 5, and you explicitly pick one when signing up. 5) We don't offer PHP 5 yet because we haven't figured out how to do that in cPanel and we're afraid of breaking stuff. I've actually been pleasantly surprised to find that group 5 seems to be a minority. There's a fair number of hosts in groups 3 and 4 that, I think, artificially deflate PHP 5's numbers. That's made developers gun-shy. How are the Nexen stats compiled? Johannes has said that he "has statistics" showing that PHP 5 has 60% of the market, not 20%. Quoth Ben Franklin, "there are likes, damned lies, and statistics." But at this point I don't think the situation is as dire as everyone seems to think. The huge flood of hosts we had signing up with GoPHP5 in the first day, combined with the other hosts I've spoken to, suggest that simple inertia is the problem at this point, not simply "no hosts offer it". -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Monday 09 July 2007, Peter Brodersen wrote: > Usually the PHP development does not bother with specific vendors, > products, hosting companies or recommendations in general and so on. > But if we really are up for it, it might have a pacific effect to put > up some "known-good" lists; stuff like "Yes, phpbb does work with > PHP5. Yes, your ISP does support PHP5. Yes, we can recommend tools to > check for basic PHP5 compatibility. Yes, MySQL does work with PHP5". > The hard part about this is that if the lists are just somewhat > non-exhaustive people could be lead to think that all the stuff not > mentioned is not compatible. The GoPHP5.org project is part way there, I think. :-) It's not a "works with" but a "works only with", but still any project listed there is rather assumed to be PHP 5-friendly. I hate to volunteer myself for more work, but is there some way that GoPHP5 could help make that transition easier? (We can host upgrade guides written by others too, I suspect.) -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 22:25:32 -0700, in php.internals [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rasmus Lerdorf) wrote: >> b) We will discontinue supporting PHP 4 on 8/8/8 (because it sounds good >> and gives people about a year). > >The number 8 also has lots of meaning in Chinese culture. For example >the Beijing Olympics will begin on 8/8/8 at 8:08:08 pm because the word >for 8 sounds like ? which means prosper or wealth. A bit more off-topic: A search for Beijing Olympics at Google gives Reporters sans frontières (Reporters Without Borders), www.rsf.org , as one of the first results. If they don't upgrade their PHP 4 installation it would create a great conspiracy theory :) (of course, sites won't magically go black at that exact moment) In general I really think every bit of help and information about the issue would be paramount. Both information about the motive for discontinuing support and practical information of how to test existing scripts with PHP 5. Usually the PHP development does not bother with specific vendors, products, hosting companies or recommendations in general and so on. But if we really are up for it, it might have a pacific effect to put up some "known-good" lists; stuff like "Yes, phpbb does work with PHP5. Yes, your ISP does support PHP5. Yes, we can recommend tools to check for basic PHP5 compatibility. Yes, MySQL does work with PHP5". The hard part about this is that if the lists are just somewhat non-exhaustive people could be lead to think that all the stuff not mentioned is not compatible. php -l might provide a basic indication of how much havoc an upgrade will cause. Even though php is downloadable as a shell executable for Windows as well I think that a bunch of the php developers still using PHP4 are not into command line administration themselves. Maybe creating a simple tool (perhaps graphic) to check for the 25 most common bc breaks as well as lint checks and with detailed information of what to do. Basically when we tell users "You can't do that anymore" the obvious question from the users would be "But what would I have to do instead?". I know the development of such a tool might be outside the scope of usual php development. But if we want to change the behaviour pattern of the users in the transitional phase it could be necessary. -- - Peter Brodersen -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 12:44:09PM +0200, Marco wrote: > >What might be nice is a patch to PHP4 that provides a bit in > >error_reporting > >that would cause warnings on stuff that might break on a move to PHP5. > > > >Someone could then switch it on and look at what is logged. I suspect that > >many people would also be pleasantly surprised that 4 -> 5 is not as hard > >as it seems. > > > I think this is a good idea but might be hard to implement thinking > about it couldn't we do something along these lines in userspace? IOW create > a script which parses php files and flags up possible issues? Replying again: the other thing is that this mode does not need to do everything, it needs to focus on the things that are hard to do by other means; eg: 1) warn on assignment of an object -- this is hard do to by 'eye balling' the code. 2) be silent on the use of a user defined function with the name 'clone' The user can find this by the use of grep. A list of things like (2) should be given and it made clear that (1) WILL NOT point them out. -- Alain Williams Linux Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php #include -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
I was actually referring to a transition from PHP4 to PHP5. As I originally stated; there was not a smooth transition - PHP4 is almost nothing like PHP5. So, what I really meant; was that the difference between the two is quite stark. I'm not quite sure what you mean about the transition? I can certainly say it has been better than the one from PHP3 to PHP4 which taught the hosting companies a big lesson! Regards Marco
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 12:44:09PM +0200, Marco wrote: > >What might be nice is a patch to PHP4 that provides a bit in > >error_reporting > >that would cause warnings on stuff that might break on a move to PHP5. > > > >Someone could then switch it on and look at what is logged. I suspect that > >many people would also be pleasantly surprised that 4 -> 5 is not as hard > >as it seems. > > > I think this is a good idea but might be hard to implement thinking > about it couldn't we do something along these lines in userspace? IOW create > a script which parses php files and flags up possible issues? The trouble is that many PHP scripts dynamically include other files and variables being dynamically typed ... you really need to run the script to see what happens. -- Alain Williams Linux Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php #include -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
What might be nice is a patch to PHP4 that provides a bit in error_reporting that would cause warnings on stuff that might break on a move to PHP5. Someone could then switch it on and look at what is logged. I suspect that many people would also be pleasantly surprised that 4 -> 5 is not as hard as it seems. I think this is a good idea but might be hard to implement thinking about it couldn't we do something along these lines in userspace? IOW create a script which parses php files and flags up possible issues? Regards Marco
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
The trouble is that many PHP scripts dynamically include other files and variables being dynamically typed ... you really need to run the script to see what happens. Good point! I wonder if something like this could be added to xdebug or a new extension? TBH I like the idea just dont really think it belongs in the core. Regards Marco
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 11:49:42 +0200, Marco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> FWIW The boxen I get my mail on is running PHP4 and I have absolutely
>> no trouble with unicode support in my mail (to or from).
>
>
>
> The unicode changes in PHP6 are a little more complicated than that and
> change how most of the engine works, this is a good thing IMO as native
> unicode support is vital to support the growing needs of PHP applications
> to
> support a wide range of languages.. although I guess i'm not looking
> forward to reading php code that says
>
> function 北方话/北方?()
OUCH!
I love the way the language looks (quite beautiful).
But would dearly hate to try and re-create it. :)
> {
> echo "Hello world ";
Ahhh, I know this one by heart. ;)
> }
>
> :-D
>
> Regards
>
> Marco
>
/
Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging!
.
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
Alain Williams wrote: [snip] > What might be nice is a patch to PHP4 that provides a bit in error_reporting > that would cause warnings on stuff that might break on a move to PHP5. > > Someone could then switch it on and look at what is logged. I suspect that > many people would also be pleasantly surprised that 4 -> 5 is not as hard > as it seems. I don't know how realistic this is but IMO that's a very good idea. One of the major problems for my company which still uses PHP4 is just to find out which parts of our apps will break with PHP5. Having an error log with all the issues to be fixed on migrating would make planning much easier. Daniel -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
You can do that already with PHP 4 as well if your script is in UTF-8: Scary! :-D Regards Marco
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 10:46:52 +0100, Alain Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 11:35:30AM +0200, Marco wrote: >> > >> > >> >I will venture to say that the biggest issue was; no transition period. >> >> >> I dont think the transition period is a reason for lack of migration 3 > years >> is a pretty long time!. I was actually referring to a transition from PHP4 to PHP5. As I originally stated; there was not a smooth transition - PHP4 is almost nothing like PHP5. So, what I really meant; was that the difference between the two is quite stark. >> the biggest issue is lack of support in popular >> applications, I can't tell you the number of time's i've spoken to a >> hosting company about lack of PHP5 support and their answer being, "Oh > we >> would love to move to PHP5 but our control panel and application X > doesn't >> yet support it". This from my experience is the most common response :( >> See my comment on providing an install guide to accommodate parallel installs of PHP4, PHP5, PHP6 on the same boxen. Now everyone's happy ;) >> The other issue of course is BC breaks, although I can say in my > experience >> the idea of fixing these issue's was a lot worse than actually fixing >> them... I worried about converting a 100,000 line PHP4 app for weeks, > but in >> reality managed to port it to PHP5 in a weekend so I spent longer > worrying >> more than anythig else! I've had the same experience(s). But I've also the opposite experience - more times than I'd care to recall. But of course, it all depends. >> >> We need IMO better information on how to port PHP4 app's to PHP5 > detailing >> area's where issue's are likely to occur so that code can be converted >> faster. > > +1 --- this should be flagged up big at the top of www.php.net/manual/XX > > What might be nice is a patch to PHP4 that provides a bit in > error_reporting > that would cause warnings on stuff that might break on a move to PHP5. With pointers to the PHP5 equivalent? Yes, That would be an excellent approach that would surely make ppl take a closer look at PHP5. > > Someone could then switch it on and look at what is logged. I suspect that > many people would also be pleasantly surprised that 4 -> 5 is not as hard > as it seems. > >> Other than that I say roll on 8/8/08 and to PHP4 I say "So long and > thanks >> for all the fish"!!! > > -- > Alain Williams > Linux Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT > Lecturer. > +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ > Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: > http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php > #include / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Marco wrote:
> although I guess i'm not looking forward to reading php code that
> says
>
> function 北方话/北方話()
> {
> echo "Hello world ";
> }
You can do that already with PHP 4 as well if your script is in UTF-8:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ cat unicode.php
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ php-4.4dev unicode.php
Hello world
regards,
Derick
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
FWIW The boxen I get my mail on is running PHP4 and I have absolutely no trouble with unicode support in my mail (to or from). The unicode changes in PHP6 are a little more complicated than that and change how most of the engine works, this is a good thing IMO as native unicode support is vital to support the growing needs of PHP applications to support a wide range of languages.. although I guess i'm not looking forward to reading php code that says
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 7/9/07, Derick Rethans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Fri, 6 Jul 2007, Andi Gutmans wrote: > I'd suggest something close to what Rasmus suggested: > a) We make a clear statement on PHP.net that at the end of the year we > plan to discontinue bug fixes for PHP 4 except for security fixes. > b) We will discontinue supporting PHP 4 on 8/8/8 (because it sounds good > and gives people about a year). The attached patch mentions the above. As you can see, the idea is to release this on the 13th, 3 years after php 5 was released for this first time. First thanks for the patch! This paragraph is confusing and somehow made my point: + + Hereby the PHP development team announces that support for PHP 4 will + continue until the end of this year only. From 2007-12-31 there will be no + more releases of PHP 4.4, besides important security releases. Security + releases will continue until 2008-08-08 after which PHP 4.4 will no longer be + supported officially. Please use the rest of this year to make your + application suitable to run on PHP 5. + Either we support it or we don't. That means we support it for security problems only (all non sec bugs reported in php4 will be bogused or move to php5+ if still present). That also means we will have security release only until 2008-08-08. I know that it is what this paragraph says but it could be clearer. Something like: - From 2008-01-01, only security fixes will be fixed (btw, there is no "unimportant" security issue) - From 2008-08-08, PHP4 is dead, officially and physically Is there a way to tell something like that in a non confusing way? There is no need to hide the facts behind some form of kindness :-) hth Cheers, --Pierre -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 11:35:30AM +0200, Marco wrote: > > > > > >I will venture to say that the biggest issue was; no transition period. > > > I dont think the transition period is a reason for lack of migration 3 years > is a pretty long time!. the biggest issue is lack of support in popular > applications, I can't tell you the number of time's i've spoken to a > hosting company about lack of PHP5 support and their answer being, "Oh we > would love to move to PHP5 but our control panel and application X doesn't > yet support it". This from my experience is the most common response :( > > The other issue of course is BC breaks, although I can say in my experience > the idea of fixing these issue's was a lot worse than actually fixing > them... I worried about converting a 100,000 line PHP4 app for weeks, but in > reality managed to port it to PHP5 in a weekend so I spent longer worrying > more than anythig else! > > We need IMO better information on how to port PHP4 app's to PHP5 detailing > area's where issue's are likely to occur so that code can be converted > faster. +1 --- this should be flagged up big at the top of www.php.net/manual/XX What might be nice is a patch to PHP4 that provides a bit in error_reporting that would cause warnings on stuff that might break on a move to PHP5. Someone could then switch it on and look at what is logged. I suspect that many people would also be pleasantly surprised that 4 -> 5 is not as hard as it seems. > Other than that I say roll on 8/8/08 and to PHP4 I say "So long and thanks > for all the fish"!!! -- Alain Williams Linux Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php #include -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 13:11:46 +0400, "Alexey Zakhlestin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 7/9/07, chris# <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> FWIW The boxen I get my mail on is running PHP4 and I have absolutely >> no trouble with unicode support in my mail (to or from). > > did you try sorting? comparison between string which use different > unicode-normalisation forms? > I guess that wouldn't work well You may be right, I don't recall trying it. For the record; I'm not trying to advocate anything. I was just sharing an experience. :) > > -- > Alexey Zakhlestin > http://blog.milkfarmsoft.com/ / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
I will venture to say that the biggest issue was; no transition period. I dont think the transition period is a reason for lack of migration 3 years is a pretty long time!. the biggest issue is lack of support in popular applications, I can't tell you the number of time's i've spoken to a hosting company about lack of PHP5 support and their answer being, "Oh we would love to move to PHP5 but our control panel and application X doesn't yet support it". This from my experience is the most common response :( The other issue of course is BC breaks, although I can say in my experience the idea of fixing these issue's was a lot worse than actually fixing them... I worried about converting a 100,000 line PHP4 app for weeks, but in reality managed to port it to PHP5 in a weekend so I spent longer worrying more than anythig else! We need IMO better information on how to port PHP4 app's to PHP5 detailing area's where issue's are likely to occur so that code can be converted faster. Other than that I say roll on 8/8/08 and to PHP4 I say "So long and thanks for all the fish"!!! Regards Marco
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 17:21:07 -0400, "David Coallier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 7/8/07, Tomas Kuliavas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Well, then I guess we have no choice but to declare official PHP 4 >> end-of-life >> to be on 8:08:08 pm too :) Now we only need to choose a suitable >> timezone :) >> >> >> >> Well, for us using the 24 hr clock I'd say 8:08:08 am (ante meridiem) > as >> >> it otherwise will be 20:08:08 when we speak and write about this > event. >> > >> > Except no real geek would schedule anything for 8am. >> >> Easy. Schedule it for 8am in China. Do it in Canada, UK or Israel. :) >> > > What about 8/8/8 8pm in china and 01/01/08 Canada, UK, USA.. that way > we can get rid of it quickly and if it's meaningful for chinese people > to use the number 8, we can do it on 8/8/8 for them (irony/joke) ? > Seriously.. I don't really see the point in keeping it for another > year.. imho end of the year is great and more than enough time to > upgrade, we've got to cut the cord sometimes.. why not keep it until > 9/9/9 Interesting you mention this. Recent studies seem to indicate that the actual number /is/ 999, and not 666 as everyone believed. They also believe that it was in reference to Julius Ceaser. But I digress, as I'm steering this OT. Sorry, just thought I'd mention it. > since it's 6/6/6 upside down and means the devil.. the end of > things.. could also be the end of php4 > >> >> -- >> Tomas >> >> -- >> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List >> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php >> >> > > > D > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 7/9/07, chris# <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: FWIW The boxen I get my mail on is running PHP4 and I have absolutely no trouble with unicode support in my mail (to or from). did you try sorting? comparison between string which use different unicode-normalisation forms? I guess that wouldn't work well -- Alexey Zakhlestin http://blog.milkfarmsoft.com/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 15:18:29 +0200, Marco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> My thought about php4->php6 migration was that when php6 is out to >> encourage (or more correctly said almost enforce - with the proper >> announcement for EOL on the php.net) the php4 users to upgrade directly > to >> php6. This way the php6 adoption could be much faster than php5 one. >> It will be just obvious for everybody still using php4 that he has to >> upgrade - then why to upgrade to php5 while he can upgrade to php6? >> So please give your opinions on this. > > > I dont think this is a good idea and is unlikely to happen in the real > world. > > IMO we should push users to first get onto PHP5 now that its stable enough > to be used, then look at gently nudging users to PHP 6 about a year after > its be released. When PHP 6 has been out 3 years look a nudging people > running PHP 5 a little harder to migrate. Although AFAICS the unicode > implementation issues (see the unicode semantics thread) is likely to be a > key issue FWIW The boxen I get my mail on is running PHP4 and I have absolutely no trouble with unicode support in my mail (to or from). > to get people to migrate up to PHP6 so the less painful it can > be > made the better. > > Regards > > Marco / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 21:21:28 +0300 (EEST), "Tomas Kuliavas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I have my arguments. One of them is because you keep mantaining PHP4 >> for a long time. >> If you had "found a very dangerous issue in PHP4 that could not be >> resolved without moving to PHP5", I think the adoption would be >> greater. Information is everything and manipulating people's fears is >> a good way to force people to do what you want. As long as you "found" >> the issue, too many hosting companies would drop PHP4 support afraid >> of being hacked. > > If you start lying in order to prove your point, you lose. Agreed. A very good point. > > -- > Tomas > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 20:01:22 +0200, Marco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad? > > > I think we have all asked that very same question and the answer is a mix > of > a few standard issues. I will venture to say that the biggest issue was; no transition period. That is to say that PHP4 and PHP5 are two completely different creatures. There was no "morphing" period. After several years of working with PHP3/4 in this fashion, /suddenly/ most of those rules no longer applied (in PHP5). You've got millions - perhaps billions of lines of code that have to be nearly completely rewritten to be usable in PHP5. Perhaps a better solution would be to document an answer to running PHP4, PHP5, and PHP6 on the same boxen for the most popular OS's. Then there would be little reason for anyone not to adopt any version(s) of their choosing, and little reason to complain about an EOL. Seems a sure answer to me. > The hard part has always been deciding how to move > it > forward. Without the customers demanding change hosts wont do it, without > the hosts support application developers are reluctant to move to PHP 5 > only > versions. > > One of the issue's cited was lack of popular opensource projects > supporting > PHP 5, maybe we should all encourage our favorite packages to sign up to > http://gophp5.org/ as this seems like an interesting idea on how to speed > up > the migration. > > Regards > > Marco / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Fri, 6 Jul 2007, Andi Gutmans wrote:
> I'd suggest something close to what Rasmus suggested:
> a) We make a clear statement on PHP.net that at the end of the year we
> plan to discontinue bug fixes for PHP 4 except for security fixes.
> b) We will discontinue supporting PHP 4 on 8/8/8 (because it sounds good
> and gives people about a year).
The attached patch mentions the above. As you can see, the idea is to
release this on the 13th, 3 years after php 5 was released for this
first time.
> I also suggest to move PHP 4 downloads to the museum. I suggest though
> to make a clear visible link from php.net/downloads.php to the museum
> and make a clear statement that PHP 4 has moved (I am sure there are
> still many who look for it for application compatibiity reasons).
I think this is a bit premature - I suggest doing this at the end of the
year as the museum does not have MD5 sums and the like. I did add a
couple of lines in the patch for phpweb to point out this upcoming issue
though on both the downloads and releases pages.
Please have a look at the attached patch and feel free to make any
suggestions towards making the text better.
regards,
Derick
--
Derick Rethans
http://derickrethans.nl | http://ez.no | http://xdebug.orgIndex: downloads.php
===
RCS file: /repository/phpweb/downloads.php,v
retrieving revision 1.278
diff -u -r1.278 downloads.php
--- downloads.php 2 May 2007 06:44:11 - 1.278
+++ downloads.php 9 Jul 2007 08:22:18 -
@@ -119,6 +119,11 @@
PHP
+
+ Support for PHP 4 will be discontinued at
2007-12-31. Please consider
+ upgrading to PHP 5.2.
+
+
Complete Source Code
Stable Releases
Current PHP 5 Stable: $PHP_5_STABLE
-Current PHP 4 Stable: $PHP_4_STABLE
+Historical PHP 4 Stable:
$PHP_4_STABLE
\n
EOT;
Index: archive/2007.xml
===
RCS file: /repository/phpweb/archive/2007.xml,v
retrieving revision 1.8
diff -u -r1.8 2007.xml
--- archive/2007.xml27 Jun 2007 19:55:04 - 1.8
+++ archive/2007.xml9 Jul 2007 08:22:18 -
@@ -11,6 +11,40 @@
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom";>
+PHP 4 end of life announcement
+
+
+http://php.net/archive/2007.php#2007-07-13-1
+2007-07-13T00:13:00+02:00
+2007-07-13T00:13:00+02:00
+
+
+ http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";>
+
+ Today it is exactly three years ago since PHP 5 has been released. In those
+ three years it has seen many improvements over PHP 4. As PHP 6 is on the
+ way we do not seem it worthwhile to continue PHP 4 support longer.
+
+
+ Hereby the PHP development team announces that support for PHP 4 will
+ continue until the end of this year only. From 2007-12-31 there will be no
+ more releases of PHP 4.4, besides important security releases. Security
+ releases will continue until 2008-08-08 after which PHP 4.4 will no longer be
+ supported officially. Please use the rest of this year to make your
+ application suitable to run on PHP 5.
+
+
+ For documentation on migration for PHP 4 to PHP 5, we would like to point you
+ to our migration guide. There is
+ additional information available in the PHP 5.0 to PHP 5.1 and PHP 5.1 to PHP 5.2 migration guides as
+ well.
+
+
+
+
+ http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom";>
php|works 2007: Call for Papers
http://works.phparch.com/c/p/index"; rel="via"
type="text/html"/>
Index: releases/index.php
===
RCS file: /repository/phpweb/releases/index.php,v
retrieving revision 1.12
diff -u -r1.12 index.php
--- releases/index.php 31 May 2007 22:57:31 - 1.12
+++ releases/index.php 9 Jul 2007 08:22:19 -
@@ -106,7 +106,7 @@
site_header("Releases");
?>
-Releases
+Unsupported Historical Releases
We have collected all the official information and code available for
@@ -427,6 +427,12 @@
+
+
+ Support for PHP 4 will be discontinued at
2007-12-31. Please consider
+ upgrading to PHP 5.2.
+
+
4.4.6
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:53:58 +0300, Jani Taskinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So why keep supporting PHP 4 then? > Why keep "top posting"? It makes no sense. > Stanislav Malyshev kirjoitti: >>> I'd be more for dropping all support whatsoever by the end of this >>> year and focus totally on PHP 5/6. Critical security fixes are another >>> issue altogether. >> >> We already are focused on 5/6. When the last time on the list was >> anything php 4 discussed that wasn't security fix? Almost all the >> discussion now is PHP 5/6. > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:30:06 +0300, Jani Taskinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Nevermind the wording, just as soon as we just put a notice on php.net that > the > "end is near, prepare yourselves" the sooner hosting companies, etc. > realize the > end is really near.. :) > > I'd be more for dropping all support whatsoever by the end of this year > and > focus totally on PHP 5/6. Critical security fixes are another issue > altogether. > > --Jani By most mailing list standards this is considered "top posting" and a no, no. But in order to respond to /your/ response, I'm forced to follow it, which continues to place the the responses out of context. :( OK. I can't help but notice the overall underwhelming reception to PHP5 (mostly by ISP's). Which begs the question /why/? Shouldn't /that/ be the question? Or maybe I should ask: Has anybody bothered to find out why the majority of PHP installers /prefer/ PHP4? I am quite sure that if those questions were answered, the poll you are attempting to take now would be moot. Don't you? P.S. Sorry for top posting. But my mail client doesn't provide for rearranging the order to correct a previous top posting. > > Rasmus Lerdorf kirjoitti: >> Antony Dovgal wrote: >>> On 06.07.2007 19:07, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: I'm breaking your vote only rule. I don't really understand what dropping support means if we will still release security fixes. > That's the mode we have been in for at least a year, so what would change at the end of the year? Dropping support to me means PHP 4 becomes like PHP 3. No new > releases for any reason, and I don't think we can realistically do that yet. Saying we are dropping support and then continuing on with the status quo seems odd to me. >>> To me it means in the first place that we can add a canned answer to > the >>> bugtracker which would say "PHP4 is not supported anymore, install > PHP5" >>> and close all PHP4 only reports. >>> >>> So no bug-fixes, no releases except for ones fixing critical security >>> problems. >>> And even that should be ceased either in say.. 1 or 2 years. >> >> When was the last time we did a PHP4-only bug fix? >> >> My fear is that the impact of the no-more-support statement is hurt when >> we qualify it with the fact that nothing is really changing. >> >> I'd be more in favour of a statement that put a final death date on it >> which means no new releases of any sort. We could still say >> security-fixes only by the end of the year and then death by 08/08/08 or >> something like that. >> >> -Rasmus >> > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
> On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 16:32:50 +0200 (CEST), Derick Rethans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses, > > > > With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am > > trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the > > end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security > > issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be > > the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of > > mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly > > more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are > > allowed)! > > > > regards, > > Derick -1 I'm pro PHP5, but I think PHP4 deserves to be fully supported as long as users still depend on it. Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 7/9/07, Cristian Rodriguez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Some Linux distributors will certainly > take care of php5 for an even longer period. Yes, about 6 or 7 years more. I meant PHP4, but I fear that your answer will be the same :) --Pierre -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
-1 On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 16:32:50 +0200 (CEST), Derick Rethans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses, > > With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am > trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the > end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security > issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be > the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of > mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly > more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are > allowed)! > > regards, > Derick > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
With the benefit of a lot of reading in this thread... And not sure my vote even counts. +1 PHP4 link to museum +1 Announce ASAP "security fixes only until 8/8/8" It is not "abandoning" users, at this point, to do this, imho. They've had years to switch to PHP 5. They've got another years' worth of legacy security-only support. PHP 5 is stable enough and easy enough to switch to, for 99.99% of the code-base, that only inertia keeps most of these folks on PHP 4. I don't think it's wise to tie it to PHP 6 release. That sets a bad precedent. What if PHP 8 takes "forever" to get released, and PHP 6 *needs* to die? The only real thing to tie it to is the availability of a stable next release, and a reasonable "do or die" time-frame to migrate. -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 7/9/07, Pierre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That's the ideal world. Unfortunately yes. They should really not use it anymore but they can and they will. No matter what we do. Right. Some Linux distributors will certainly take care of php5 for an even longer period. Yes, about 6 or 7 years more. It is not really important if it is one year or six months (not like php4 gives us a lot of work :), my preference still goes to the end of this year. From my point of view, the year is merely a marketing argument, if it helps us to get a better image, why not... IMHO this should be done this way 1. Announce **clearly** that PHP4 has reached EOL ASAP. 2. Stop any kind of non-security bugfixing **inmediately** ( well. that is happening now anyway, :-) ) This include marking as wont fix all the opened PHP4 bug reports and removing PHP4 from the version list in the bugtracker as well adding a warning in the bug report form about this. 3. Move PHP4 releases to the Museum ASAP. 4. gave users a reasonable time to discontinue security fixes (no less that 8 months IMHO) also state clearly that this covers only critical security bugs. 5. Fix the documentation, the migration to PHP5 documents are missing many backward incompatible changes. just as an example. http://php.net/manual/en/migration5.incompatible.php does not list the fact that you cannot reasign $this and that unset($this) does nothing. there are many others. 6. finally people will attempt to use backward compatibilty hacks like the horrendous and non-working like zend.ze1_compatibility_mode, it is very important to either fix it or remove it ( I suggest removing it) , there are many extensions that dont even work or crash with it enabled. my $2 chilean pesos. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 7/9/07, Andi Gutmans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: No. If they don't get security updates then they can't really use it anymore... That's the ideal world. They should really not use it anymore but they can and they will. No matter what we do. I saw many hosts with outdated versions or using old Debian or BSD setups (have been used a 4.3 or 4.2 in the last months). Some Linux distributors will certainly take care of php5 for an even longer period. It is not really important if it is one year or six months (not like php4 gives us a lot of work :), my preference still goes to the end of this year. From my point of view, the year is merely a marketing argument, if it helps us to get a better image, why not... --Pierre -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
No. If they don't get security updates then they can't really use it anymore... > -Original Message- > From: Tijnema [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 4:29 PM > To: Andi Gutmans > Cc: David Coallier; Tomas Kuliavas; internals@lists.php.net > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4? > > On 7/9/07, Andi Gutmans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Because some of us don't believe 6 months is enough time > for the broad > > market to make the move. > > One year is more suitable. > > As we already stated the message would already be strong today and > > people wouldn't wait until the year ends with an > end-of-life coming up. > > Andi > > But after PHP4 is dropped, people can still use it, so if > people really need to use it longer then they can just > continue using it, once they are done they can still move on. > > Tijnema > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Coallier > > > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 2:21 PM > > > To: Tomas Kuliavas > > > Cc: internals@lists.php.net > > > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4? > > > > > > On 7/8/07, Tomas Kuliavas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > >>>> Well, then I guess we have no choice but to declare > > > official PHP > > > > >>>> 4 end-of-life to be on 8:08:08 pm too :) Now we > only need to > > > > >>>> choose a suitable timezone :) > > > > >> > > > > >> Well, for us using the 24 hr clock I'd say 8:08:08 am (ante > > > > >> meridiem) as it otherwise will be 20:08:08 when we speak > > > and write about this event. > > > > > > > > > > Except no real geek would schedule anything for 8am. > > > > > > > > Easy. Schedule it for 8am in China. Do it in Canada, UK or > > > Israel. :) > > > > > > > > > > What about 8/8/8 8pm in china and 01/01/08 Canada, UK, USA.. > > > that way we can get rid of it quickly and if it's meaningful for > > > chinese people to use the number 8, we can do it on 8/8/8 > for them > > > (irony/joke) ? > > > Seriously.. I don't really see the point in keeping it > for another > > > year.. imho end of the year is great and more than enough time to > > > upgrade, we've got to cut the cord sometimes.. > > > why not keep it until > > > 9/9/9 since it's 6/6/6 upside down and means the devil.. > the end of > > > things.. could also be the end of php4 > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Tomas > > > > > > > > -- > > > > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To > > > unsubscribe, > > > > visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > D > > > > > > -- > > > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To > unsubscribe, > > > visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > > > > > > > -- > > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To > unsubscribe, > > visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > > > > -- > Vote for PHP Color Coding in Gmail! -> http://gpcc.tijnema.info > -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
I have to agree with Andi. The GoPHP5 effort wanted to have a fairly aggressive timeline because its main target is projects and shared hosts, and if it was too far in the future no one would notice. The involved projects also won't actually have their next feature release until later in the year some time. The PHP dev team, however, has a different set of targets. It has to include distros and business servers. A longer warning period is sensible. Which of course means that the sooner an EOL date is announced, the sooner PHP 4 can be retired. :-) Sometime next summer sounds reasonable, and I've no problem whatsoever with kitch dates[1]. [1] http://gophp5.org/faq#n9 On Sunday 08 July 2007, Andi Gutmans wrote: > Because some of us don't believe 6 months is enough time for the broad > market to make the move. > One year is more suitable. > As we already stated the message would already be strong today and > people wouldn't wait until the year ends with an end-of-life coming up. > Andi > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Coallier > > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 2:21 PM > > To: Tomas Kuliavas > > Cc: internals@lists.php.net > > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4? > > > > On 7/8/07, Tomas Kuliavas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >>>> Well, then I guess we have no choice but to declare > > > > official PHP > > > > > >>>> 4 end-of-life to be on 8:08:08 pm too :) Now we only need to > > > >>>> choose a suitable timezone :) > > > >> > > > >> Well, for us using the 24 hr clock I'd say 8:08:08 am (ante > > > >> meridiem) as it otherwise will be 20:08:08 when we speak > > > > and write about this event. > > > > > > Except no real geek would schedule anything for 8am. > > > > > > Easy. Schedule it for 8am in China. Do it in Canada, UK or > > > > Israel. :) > > > > > > What about 8/8/8 8pm in china and 01/01/08 Canada, UK, USA.. > > that way we can get rid of it quickly and if it's meaningful > > for chinese people to use the number 8, we can do it on 8/8/8 > > for them (irony/joke) ? > > Seriously.. I don't really see the point in keeping it for > > another year.. imho end of the year is great and more than > > enough time to upgrade, we've got to cut the cord sometimes.. > > why not keep it until > > 9/9/9 since it's 6/6/6 upside down and means the devil.. the > > end of things.. could also be the end of php4 > > > > > -- > > > Tomas > > > > > > -- > > > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To > > > > unsubscribe, > > > > > visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > D > > > > -- > > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To > > unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 7/9/07, Andi Gutmans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Because some of us don't believe 6 months is enough time for the broad market to make the move. One year is more suitable. As we already stated the message would already be strong today and people wouldn't wait until the year ends with an end-of-life coming up. Andi But after PHP4 is dropped, people can still use it, so if people really need to use it longer then they can just continue using it, once they are done they can still move on. Tijnema > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Coallier > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 2:21 PM > To: Tomas Kuliavas > Cc: internals@lists.php.net > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4? > > On 7/8/07, Tomas Kuliavas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>>> Well, then I guess we have no choice but to declare > official PHP > > >>>> 4 end-of-life to be on 8:08:08 pm too :) Now we only need to > > >>>> choose a suitable timezone :) > > >> > > >> Well, for us using the 24 hr clock I'd say 8:08:08 am (ante > > >> meridiem) as it otherwise will be 20:08:08 when we speak > and write about this event. > > > > > > Except no real geek would schedule anything for 8am. > > > > Easy. Schedule it for 8am in China. Do it in Canada, UK or > Israel. :) > > > > What about 8/8/8 8pm in china and 01/01/08 Canada, UK, USA.. > that way we can get rid of it quickly and if it's meaningful > for chinese people to use the number 8, we can do it on 8/8/8 > for them (irony/joke) ? > Seriously.. I don't really see the point in keeping it for > another year.. imho end of the year is great and more than > enough time to upgrade, we've got to cut the cord sometimes.. > why not keep it until > 9/9/9 since it's 6/6/6 upside down and means the devil.. the > end of things.. could also be the end of php4 > > > > > -- > > Tomas > > > > -- > > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To > unsubscribe, > > visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > > > > D > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To > unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Vote for PHP Color Coding in Gmail! -> http://gpcc.tijnema.info -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
Because some of us don't believe 6 months is enough time for the broad market to make the move. One year is more suitable. As we already stated the message would already be strong today and people wouldn't wait until the year ends with an end-of-life coming up. Andi > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Coallier > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 2:21 PM > To: Tomas Kuliavas > Cc: internals@lists.php.net > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4? > > On 7/8/07, Tomas Kuliavas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>>> Well, then I guess we have no choice but to declare > official PHP > > >>>> 4 end-of-life to be on 8:08:08 pm too :) Now we only need to > > >>>> choose a suitable timezone :) > > >> > > >> Well, for us using the 24 hr clock I'd say 8:08:08 am (ante > > >> meridiem) as it otherwise will be 20:08:08 when we speak > and write about this event. > > > > > > Except no real geek would schedule anything for 8am. > > > > Easy. Schedule it for 8am in China. Do it in Canada, UK or > Israel. :) > > > > What about 8/8/8 8pm in china and 01/01/08 Canada, UK, USA.. > that way we can get rid of it quickly and if it's meaningful > for chinese people to use the number 8, we can do it on 8/8/8 > for them (irony/joke) ? > Seriously.. I don't really see the point in keeping it for > another year.. imho end of the year is great and more than > enough time to upgrade, we've got to cut the cord sometimes.. > why not keep it until > 9/9/9 since it's 6/6/6 upside down and means the devil.. the > end of things.. could also be the end of php4 > > > > > -- > > Tomas > > > > -- > > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To > unsubscribe, > > visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > > > > D > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To > unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 7/8/07, Tomas Kuliavas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Well, then I guess we have no choice but to declare official PHP 4 end-of-life to be on 8:08:08 pm too :) Now we only need to choose a suitable timezone :) >> >> Well, for us using the 24 hr clock I'd say 8:08:08 am (ante meridiem) as >> it otherwise will be 20:08:08 when we speak and write about this event. > > Except no real geek would schedule anything for 8am. Easy. Schedule it for 8am in China. Do it in Canada, UK or Israel. :) What about 8/8/8 8pm in china and 01/01/08 Canada, UK, USA.. that way we can get rid of it quickly and if it's meaningful for chinese people to use the number 8, we can do it on 8/8/8 for them (irony/joke) ? Seriously.. I don't really see the point in keeping it for another year.. imho end of the year is great and more than enough time to upgrade, we've got to cut the cord sometimes.. why not keep it until 9/9/9 since it's 6/6/6 upside down and means the devil.. the end of things.. could also be the end of php4 -- Tomas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php D -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
Well, then I guess we have no choice but to declare official PHP 4 end-of-life to be on 8:08:08 pm too :) Now we only need to choose a suitable timezone :) >> >> Well, for us using the 24 hr clock I'd say 8:08:08 am (ante meridiem) as >> it otherwise will be 20:08:08 when we speak and write about this event. > > Except no real geek would schedule anything for 8am. Easy. Schedule it for 8am in China. Do it in Canada, UK or Israel. :) -- Tomas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
Keryx Web wrote: > >>> Well, then I guess we have no choice but to declare official PHP 4 >>> end-of-life >>> to be on 8:08:08 pm too :) Now we only need to choose a suitable >>> timezone :) > > Well, for us using the 24 hr clock I'd say 8:08:08 am (ante meridiem) as > it otherwise will be 20:08:08 when we speak and write about this event. Except no real geek would schedule anything for 8am. -R -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
Well, then I guess we have no choice but to declare official PHP 4 end-of-life to be on 8:08:08 pm too :) Now we only need to choose a suitable timezone :) Well, for us using the 24 hr clock I'd say 8:08:08 am (ante meridiem) as it otherwise will be 20:08:08 when we speak and write about this event. Lars Gunther -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On 08.07.2007, at 16:15, Alain Williams wrote: On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 11:46:08AM +0200, Derick Rethans wrote: On Sun, 8 Jul 2007, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: The number 8 also has lots of meaning in Chinese culture. For example the Beijing Olympics will begin on 8/8/8 at 8:08:08 pm because the word for 8 sounds like 发 which means prosper or wealth. Well, then I guess we have no choice but to declare official PHP 4 end-of-life to be on 8:08:08 pm too :) Now we only need to choose a suitable timezone :) GMT+8 of course... Which, appropriately enough, includes China. So: support for PHP4 ends when the Olympics start. one day porting to the next major version of PHP will be olympic ;) regards, Lukas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 11:46:08AM +0200, Derick Rethans wrote: > On Sun, 8 Jul 2007, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: > > > > The number 8 also has lots of meaning in Chinese culture. For example > > > the Beijing Olympics will begin on 8/8/8 at 8:08:08 pm because the word > > > for 8 sounds like 发 which means prosper or wealth. > > > > Well, then I guess we have no choice but to declare official PHP 4 > > end-of-life > > to be on 8:08:08 pm too :) Now we only need to choose a suitable timezone :) > > GMT+8 of course... Which, appropriately enough, includes China. So: support for PHP4 ends when the Olympics start. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Timezones_optimized.png -- Alain Williams Linux Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php #include -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
