Re: [biofuel] Hybrid

[Darryl McMahon]

Yes.  I'm building one (as finances permit).

Darryl McMahon

"dewey_nc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> asked:> Has any research been done on the 
feasibility of a biodiesel/electric
> hybrid vehicle?  This would offer high MPG with reduced total fuel
> consumption.  And the fuel is from renewable sources.
> 


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Re: [biofuel] Hybrid

[Andy & Lynn]

What are you going to use for the electric motor?
- Original Message -
From: "greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid


> it has worked for trains for a long time why not cars.
> -Original Message-
> From: Darryl McMahon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
> Date: Friday, April 25, 2003 3:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid
>
>
> >Yes.  I'm building one (as finances permit).
> >
> >Darryl McMahon
> >
> >"dewey_nc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> asked:> Has any research been done on the
> feasibility of a biodiesel/electric
> >> hybrid vehicle?  This would offer high MPG with reduced total fuel
> >> consumption.  And the fuel is from renewable sources.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> >Biofuels list archives:
> >http://archive.nnytech.net/
> >
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> >
> >
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [biofuel] Hybrid

[Steve Spence]

saw one in Vermont last year. s10 pickup, electric drive, biodiesel
generator.


Steve Spence
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: "greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid


> it has worked for trains for a long time why not cars.
> -Original Message-
> From: Darryl McMahon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
> Date: Friday, April 25, 2003 3:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid
>
>
> >Yes.  I'm building one (as finances permit).
> >
> >Darryl McMahon
> >
> >"dewey_nc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> asked:> Has any research been done on the
> feasibility of a biodiesel/electric
> >> hybrid vehicle?  This would offer high MPG with reduced total fuel
> >> consumption.  And the fuel is from renewable sources.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
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> >http://archive.nnytech.net/
> >
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>
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Re: [biofuel] Hybrid

[Steve Spence]

I'd suggest an 8" or 9" dc motor, from 96 to 144 volts.

This will give you 68 - 100 hp

Advanced D.C. Motors is a good brand.

Steve Spence
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: "Andy & Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid


> What are you going to use for the electric motor?
> - Original Message -
> From: "greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 3:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid
>
>
> > it has worked for trains for a long time why not cars.
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Darryl McMahon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
> > Date: Friday, April 25, 2003 3:07 PM
> > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid
> >
> >
> > >Yes.  I'm building one (as finances permit).
> > >
> > >Darryl McMahon
> > >
> > >"dewey_nc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> asked:> Has any research been done on the
> > feasibility of a biodiesel/electric
> > >> hybrid vehicle?  This would offer high MPG with reduced total fuel
> > >> consumption.  And the fuel is from renewable sources.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > >
> > >Biofuels list archives:
> > >http://archive.nnytech.net/
> > >
> > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > >To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
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> >
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Re: [biofuel] Hybrid

[Darryl McMahon]

"Andy & Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What are you going to use for the electric motor?

Presuming you are asking this of me.

I am using a Mawdsley compound wound 120-volt DC traction motor, rated at 24 hp 
continuous duty.  It is already mounted to the original 5-speed manual 
transmission, retaining the clutch.  Controller will be set to deliver 
approximately 115 hp (87 kW) peak. 

Estimate that all-electric range should be about 30 km (75% depth of discharge 
on 
210 kg of lead-acid batteries).  Hybrid range should be about 800 km (40 liter 
tank 
for biodiesel).  Normal commuting should be done all-electric, assuming plug 
available at both ends of trip.

Darryl McMahon


Darryl McMahon

Darryl McMahon
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Darryl McMahon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
> > Date: Friday, April 25, 2003 3:07 PM
> > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid
> >
> >
> > >Yes.  I'm building one (as finances permit).
> > >
> > >Darryl McMahon

Darryl McMahon  48 Tarquin Crescent,
Econogics, Inc. Nepean, Ontario K2H 8J8
 It's your planet.  Voice: (613)784-0655
 If you won't look  Fax:   (613)828-3199
 after it, who will?http://www.econogics.com/

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Re: [biofuel] Hybrid

[greg]

it has worked for trains for a long time why not cars.
-Original Message-
From: Darryl McMahon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Friday, April 25, 2003 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid


>Yes.  I'm building one (as finances permit).
>
>Darryl McMahon
>
>"dewey_nc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> asked:> Has any research been done on the
feasibility of a biodiesel/electric
>> hybrid vehicle?  This would offer high MPG with reduced total fuel
>> consumption.  And the fuel is from renewable sources.
>>
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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>
>


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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Andrew Netherton]

I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment
if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our
cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.

Andrew Netherton


On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years
>
> < http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news >
>
> Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis
>  in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial
>   benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled
>   "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April
>Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now.
>
> Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving
>  the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the
>  story, were compared to their conventionally powered
>  counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate
>   how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during
>the first five years.
>
>
>
> full article
>
> < http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news >
>
>
>
>
>
> Get your daily alternative energy news
>
>  Alternate Energy Resource Network
>1000+ news sources-resources
>  updated daily
>
> http://www.alternate-energy.net
>
>
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/
>
>
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/
>
>
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/
>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Paul S Cantrell]

Or for that matter, an off-peak plug-in hybrid.On 3/9/06, Andrew Netherton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investmentif they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our
cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.Andrew NethertonOn 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:>
> Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years>> < http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news
 >>> Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis>  in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial>   benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled
>   "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April>Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now.>> Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving>  the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the
>  story, were compared to their conventionally powered>  counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate>   how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during>the first five years.
 full article>> < http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news >
>> Get your daily alternative energy news>>  Alternate Energy Resource Network>1000+ news sources-resources>  updated daily>> 
http://www.alternate-energy.net>>> Next Generation Grid> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/
>>> Tomorrow-energy> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/>>> Alternative Energy Politics> 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___> Biofuel mailing list
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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Jeromie Reeves]

Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap 
fuel as I pay WAY
more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water.

Jeromie

Andrew Netherton wrote:

>I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment
>if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our
>cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.
>
>Andrew Netherton
>
>
>On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
>
>>Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years
>>
>>< http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news >
>>
>>Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis
>> in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial
>>  benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled
>>  "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April
>>   Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now.
>>
>>Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving
>> the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the
>> story, were compared to their conventionally powered
>> counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate
>>  how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during
>>   the first five years.
>>
>>
>>
>>full article
>>
>>< http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Get your daily alternative energy news
>>
>> Alternate Energy Resource Network
>>   1000+ news sources-resources
>> updated daily
>>
>>http://www.alternate-energy.net
>>
>>
>>Next Generation Grid
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/
>>
>>
>>Tomorrow-energy
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/
>>
>>
>>Alternative Energy Politics
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/
>>
>>
>>
>>___
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>>
>
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>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Joe Street]

Take a trip to England or anywhere in Europe and don't forget to rent a
car while you are there.  When you get back tell us how it went!
LOL

Joe

Jeromie Reeves wrote:

  Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap 
fuel as I pay WAY
more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water.

Jeromie

Andrew Netherton wrote:

  
  
I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment
if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our
cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.

Andrew Netherton


On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 



  Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years

< http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news >

Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis
in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial
 benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled
 "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April
  Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now.

Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving
the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the
story, were compared to their conventionally powered
counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate
 how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during
  the first five years.



full article

< http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news >





Get your daily alternative energy news

Alternate Energy Resource Network
  1000+ news sources-resources
updated daily

http://www.alternate-energy.net


Next Generation Grid
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/


Tomorrow-energy
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/


Alternative Energy Politics
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/



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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Chip Mefford]

Jeromie Reeves wrote:
> Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap 
> fuel as I pay WAY
> more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water.
> 
> Jeromie

Would depend on your bottled water.

retail bottled water usually runs in excess of
$1 per litre.

retail gasoline is far shy of that.

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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Joe Street]

Here's a link I just found on Google for example
http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm

J

Jeromie Reeves wrote:

  Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap 
fuel as I pay WAY
more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water.

Jeromie

Andrew Netherton wrote:

  
  
I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment
if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our
cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.

Andrew Netherton


On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 



  Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years

< http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news >

Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis
in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial
 benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled
 "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April
  Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now.

Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving
the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the
story, were compared to their conventionally powered
counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate
 how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during
  the first five years.



full article

< http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news >





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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Joe Street]

Hey Andrew don't forget we are sitting on a virtual goldmine in terms
of fresh water here in Canada.  In many places in the USA I've heard
they are already feeling the pinch for water and it is getting worse. 
I'm wondering if we could set something up where maybe we could use
beavers as a slave labour force in the water trade.  What do you say?

Joe

Andrew Netherton wrote:

  I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment
if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our
cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.

Andrew Netherton


On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  
  
Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years

< http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news >

Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis
 in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial
  benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled
  "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April
   Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now.

Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving
 the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the
 story, were compared to their conventionally powered
 counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate
  how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during
   the first five years.



full article

< http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news >





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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Joe Street]

Here's a better one (more current and longer time range)
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.html

Joe

Jeromie Reeves wrote:

  Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap 
fuel as I pay WAY
more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water.

Jeromie

Andrew Netherton wrote:

  
  
I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment
if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our
cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.

Andrew Netherton


On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 



  Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years

< http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news >

Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis
in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial
 benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled
 "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April
  Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now.

Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving
the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the
story, were compared to their conventionally powered
counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate
 how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during
  the first five years.



full article

< http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news >





Get your daily alternative energy news

Alternate Energy Resource Network
  1000+ news sources-resources
updated daily

http://www.alternate-energy.net


Next Generation Grid
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/


Tomorrow-energy
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/


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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Hakan Falk]

Question is how much does a gallon of bottled water cost in US?

Hakan


At 19:59 09/03/2006, you wrote:
>Here's a better one (more current and longer time range)
>http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.html
>
>Joe
>
>Jeromie Reeves wrote:
>>
>>Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap
>>fuel as I pay WAY
>>more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water.
>>
>>Jeromie
>>
>>Andrew Netherton wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment
>>>if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our
>>>cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.
>>>
>>>Andrew Netherton
>>>
>>>
>>>On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork 
>>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>

Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years

< http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news >

Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis
in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial
  benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled
  "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April
   Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now.

Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving
the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the
story, were compared to their conventionally powered
counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate
  how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during
   the first five years.



full article

< http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news >




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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[oscar]

Hi:

I pay 1.18 US per liter of a 90 RON gas for my car in Peru!!

Oscar Orbegoso Montalva
Jefe del Centro de Servicios Económicos de Tarapoto
Proyecto PRA
Teléfono fijo  042 522633 / 528244
Teléfono celular 042 9695265
http://www.proyectopra.com
 
-Mensaje original-
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de Chip Mefford
Enviado el: Jueves, 09 de Marzo de 2006 01:54 p.m.
Para: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Asunto: Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

Jeromie Reeves wrote:
> Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap 
> fuel as I pay WAY
> more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water.
> 
> Jeromie

Would depend on your bottled water.

retail bottled water usually runs in excess of
$1 per litre.

retail gasoline is far shy of that.

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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel. 

The financial numbers just don't work. 

My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far)
45 mpg @ City Driving 
55 mpg @ 60 mph 
50 mpg @ 75 mph 

My cost is (City)$2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not including
normal maintenance)
My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not including
normal maintenance)
Average5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving)

My neighbors Prius gets
55 mpg @ City Driving 
51 mpg @ 60 mph  

   Cost is (City)$2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not including
normal maintenance)
   Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not including
normal maintenance)
Average4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
Plus Battery Deprecation  
8 year/100k miles/$7000 
$7000/100K = 7 cents/mile 

Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles 


Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes:
http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.html
Diesel  = 1.036 euro/Liter 
Petro(95)   = 1.209 euro/Liter 

Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal)
Diesel =  1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal 
Petro  =  1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal 

My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far)
45 mpg @ City Driving 
55 mpg @ 60 mph 
50 mpg @ 75 mph 

My cost is (City)$4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not including
normal maintenance)
My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 =  8.5 cents a mile (not including
normal maintenance)
Average9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving)

My neighbors Prius gets
55 mpg @ City Driving 
51 mpg @ 60 mph  

   Cost is (City)$5.45/60 =  9.0 cents a mile (not including
normal maintenance)
   Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not including
normal maintenance)
Average9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
Plus Battery Deprecation  
8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330
$8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile 

Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles 


In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of a
hybrid. 

Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy. 
My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles. 
My current one is at 243,000 miles and still running strong. 
My guess is if you can get 200K-250K out of a hybrid gas engine you are
doing good. 

Also working on diesel is relatively straight forward. Will have to say
VW has coupled the computer to the engine quite tightly. It make for
interesting trouble shooting when things are not working perfectly. 

Mark 



Andrew Netherton wrote:

>I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment 
>if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our 
>cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.
>
>Andrew Netherton
>

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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[bob allen]

particulate emissions?

Thompson, Mark L. (PNB R&D) wrote:
> I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel. 
> 
> The financial numbers just don't work. 
> 
> My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far)
>   45 mpg @ City Driving 
>   55 mpg @ 60 mph 
>   50 mpg @ 75 mph 
>   
>   My cost is (City)$2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not including
> normal maintenance)
>   My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not including
> normal maintenance)
>   Average5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
> 
> My neighbors Prius gets
>   55 mpg @ City Driving 
>   51 mpg @ 60 mph  
> 
>  Cost is (City)$2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not including
> normal maintenance)
>  Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not including
> normal maintenance)
>   Average4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
>   Plus Battery Deprecation  
>   8 year/100k miles/$7000 
>   $7000/100K = 7 cents/mile 
> 
>   Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles 
>   
> 
> Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes:
> http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.html
> Diesel= 1.036 euro/Liter 
> Petro(95) = 1.209 euro/Liter 
> 
> Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal)
> Diesel =  1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal 
> Petro  =  1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal 
> 
> My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far)
>   45 mpg @ City Driving 
>   55 mpg @ 60 mph 
>   50 mpg @ 75 mph 
>   
>   My cost is (City)$4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not including
> normal maintenance)
>   My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 =  8.5 cents a mile (not including
> normal maintenance)
>   Average9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
> 
> My neighbors Prius gets
>   55 mpg @ City Driving 
>   51 mpg @ 60 mph  
> 
>  Cost is (City)$5.45/60 =  9.0 cents a mile (not including
> normal maintenance)
>  Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not including
> normal maintenance)
>   Average9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
>   Plus Battery Deprecation  
>   8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330
>   $8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile 
> 
>   Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles 
> 
> 
> In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of a
> hybrid. 
> 
> Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy. 
> My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles. 
> My current one is at 243,000 miles and still running strong. 
> My guess is if you can get 200K-250K out of a hybrid gas engine you are
> doing good. 
> 
> Also working on diesel is relatively straight forward. Will have to say
> VW has coupled the computer to the engine quite tightly. It make for
> interesting trouble shooting when things are not working perfectly. 
> 
> Mark 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew Netherton wrote:
> 
>> I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment 
>> if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our 
>> cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.
>>
>> Andrew Netherton
>>
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[robert luis rabello]

bob allen wrote:

> particulate emissions?

That's a good question.  How do the modern, common rail direct 
injection diesel engines fare in terms of their particulate emissions? 
  Does anyone know?

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Marty Phee]

Depends.

Supermarket filtered by the gallon probably runs around $2/gallon.

Name brand around $4/gallon to $20/gallon.

Home delivered 5 gallon jugs ~$1.80/gallon
Same company 24 .5L is $2.20/gallon

Hakan Falk wrote:
> Question is how much does a gallon of bottled water cost in US?
>
> Hakan
>
>
> At 19:59 09/03/2006, you wrote:
>   
>> Here's a better one (more current and longer time range)
>> http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.html
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> Jeromie Reeves wrote:
>> 
>>> Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap
>>> fuel as I pay WAY
>>> more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water.
>>>
>>> Jeromie
>>>
>>> Andrew Netherton wrote:
>>>
>>>   


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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Kirk McLoren]

The hybrid could power the house. We could live very differently. And while the hybrid is powering the house if more is needed than is reasonable from the batteries heat is available as well. In fact it would make sense to leave the garage fully charged and have generated where the heat could be used.     Kirk"Thompson, Mark L. (PNB R&D)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel. The financial numbers just don't work. My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far)45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City) $2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)Average 5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving)My
 neighbors Prius gets55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City) $2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)Average 4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000 $7000/100K = 7 cents/mile Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes:http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.htmlDiesel = 1.036 euro/Liter Petro(95) = 1.209 euro/Liter Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal)Diesel = 1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal Petro = 1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far)45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City) $4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 = 8.5 cents a mile (not includingnormal
 maintenance)Average 9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving)My neighbors Prius gets55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City) $5.45/60 = 9.0 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)Average 9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330$8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of ahybrid. Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy. My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles. My current one is at 243,000 miles and still running strong. My guess is if you can get 200K-250K out of a hybrid gas engine you aredoing good. Also working on diesel is relatively straight forward. Will have to sayVW has coupled the
 computer to the engine quite tightly. It make forinteresting trouble shooting when things are not working perfectly. Mark Andrew Netherton wrote:>I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment >if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our >cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.>>Andrew Netherton>___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Hakan Falk]

That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I 
understand,
http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm
@ $1.453 per gallon.

So, what was wrong with the original statement?
Nothing as I understand it.

Hakan


At 21:25 09/03/2006, you wrote:
>Depends.
>
>Supermarket filtered by the gallon probably runs around $2/gallon.
>
>Name brand around $4/gallon to $20/gallon.
>
>Home delivered 5 gallon jugs ~$1.80/gallon
>Same company 24 .5L is $2.20/gallon
>
>Hakan Falk wrote:
> > Question is how much does a gallon of bottled water cost in US?
> >
> > Hakan
> >
> >
> > At 19:59 09/03/2006, you wrote:
> >
> >> Here's a better one (more current and longer time range)
> >> 
> http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.html
> >>
> >> Joe
> >>
> >> Jeromie Reeves wrote:
> >>
> >>> Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap
> >>> fuel as I pay WAY
> >>> more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water.
> >>>
> >>> Jeromie
> >>>
> >>> Andrew Netherton wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Marty Phee]

If you exclude state and fed taxes water is much more valuable than gas.

I think gas is 2.39 around me today.

Find a spring, put it into a fancy bottle and your rich.

Hakan Falk wrote:
> That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I 
> understand,
> http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm
> @ $1.453 per gallon.
>
> So, what was wrong with the original statement?
> Nothing as I understand it.
>
> Hakan
>
>
> At 21:25 09/03/2006, you wrote:
>   
>> Depends.
>>
>> Supermarket filtered by the gallon probably runs around $2/gallon.
>>
>> Name brand around $4/gallon to $20/gallon.
>>
>> Home delivered 5 gallon jugs ~$1.80/gallon
>> Same company 24 .5L is $2.20/gallon
>>
>> Hakan Falk wrote:
>> 
>>> Question is how much does a gallon of bottled water cost in US?
>>>
>>> Hakan
>>>
>>>
>>> At 19:59 09/03/2006, you wrote:
>>>
>>>   
 Here's a better one (more current and longer time range)

 


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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[David Miller]

Hakan Falk wrote:
> That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I 
> understand,
> http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm
> @ $1.453 per gallon.
>
> So, what was wrong with the original statement?
> Nothing as I understand it.
>   

This is just silly.

People want to make a point that gasoline is cheap in the US so they 
come up with something that makes it sound cheaper than water.

It's not enough that we're going to compare gasoline, an industrial 
fuel, to food quality water that's packaged for individual consumption.

Now we're going to compare the industrial, bought in large dollar 
quantities, price of gasoline without any kind of road or sales tax to 
water packaged for individual consumption with any and all applicable 
taxes applied.

If you really want to compare the price of gasoline to water, how about 
using the price of water from the water company?  Oh, right, it's 
because they charge cents per cubic foot and all of a sudden our 
comparison looks silly.


Gasoline IS cheap in the US.  It's not highly taxed compared to the rest 
of the world, and it doesn't include any of the external costs which 
might double or triple the price.  It doesn't include the costs of its 
use (global warming, pollution, health side-effects), the costs of it's 
production (pollution, economic and social policies), or its procurement 
(military intervention, social and economic policies).

Rather than dredging up platitudes about it being "cheaper than water" 
which just IMHO make people look silly , could we please talk about its 
real costs?

Thanks,

--- David

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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Hakan Falk]

David,

I do not understand why it is silly to want to know the facts about 
the following,

Jeromie Reeves wrote:

>Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap
>fuel as I pay WAY
>more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water.
>
>Jeromie
>
>Andrew Netherton wrote:
>
>
>>
>>I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment
>>if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our
>>cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.
>>
>>Andrew Netherton

I live in Europe and we pay WAY more for the fuel than bottled water.

Hakan


At 22:44 09/03/2006, you wrote:
>Hakan Falk wrote:
> > That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I
> > understand,
> > 
> http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm
> > @ $1.453 per gallon.
> >
> > So, what was wrong with the original statement?
> > Nothing as I understand it.
> >
>
>This is just silly.
>
>People want to make a point that gasoline is cheap in the US so they
>come up with something that makes it sound cheaper than water.
>
>It's not enough that we're going to compare gasoline, an industrial
>fuel, to food quality water that's packaged for individual consumption.
>
>Now we're going to compare the industrial, bought in large dollar
>quantities, price of gasoline without any kind of road or sales tax to
>water packaged for individual consumption with any and all applicable
>taxes applied.
>
>If you really want to compare the price of gasoline to water, how about
>using the price of water from the water company?  Oh, right, it's
>because they charge cents per cubic foot and all of a sudden our
>comparison looks silly.
>
>
>Gasoline IS cheap in the US.  It's not highly taxed compared to the rest
>of the world, and it doesn't include any of the external costs which
>might double or triple the price.  It doesn't include the costs of its
>use (global warming, pollution, health side-effects), the costs of it's
>production (pollution, economic and social policies), or its procurement
>(military intervention, social and economic policies).
>
>Rather than dredging up platitudes about it being "cheaper than water"
>which just IMHO make people look silly , could we please talk about its
>real costs?
>
>Thanks,
>
>--- David
>
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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings,
The cost of water is a funny thing, the smaller the bottle, the more it 
costs.  One gallon of distilled or spring water at Walmart is $0.58 
however, a 16.9 oz or 500ml at the check out is $0.99.  Other stores are 
more expensive, but have the same kind of pricing.
Bright Blessings,
Kim


At 01:39 PM 3/9/2006, you wrote:

>Question is how much does a gallon of bottled water cost in US?
>
>Hakan
>
>
>At 19:59 09/03/2006, you wrote:
> >Here's a better one (more current and longer time range)
> >http://www.eia.doe.g 
> ov/emeu/international/gas1.html
> >
> >Joe
> >
> >Jeromie Reeves wrote:
> >>
> >>Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap
> >>fuel as I pay WAY
> >>more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water.
> >>
> >>Jeromie
> >>
> >>Andrew Netherton wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment
> >>>if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our
> >>>cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.
> >>>
> >>>Andrew Netherton
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork
> >>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> 
> Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years
> 
> < http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news >
> 
> Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis
> in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial
>   benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled
>   "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April
>    Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now.
> 
> Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving
> the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the
> story, were compared to their conventionally powered
> counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate
>   how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during
>    the first five years.
> 
> 
> 
> full article
> 
> < http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news >
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[logan vilas]

Hakan,

The price depends on volume purchased and it doesn't make much sense. 
Distilled water costs 60 cents to 1.50 for a gallon depending on brand. 1/2 
liter bottled water costs 1 dollar, but at the same store I can buy 1 gallon 
of the same brand for .80 cents. I just have to walk down the isle instead 
of grabing it at the checkout counter. Then you can buy filtered water for 
as cheap as 30 cents a gallon. At least that's the local grocery store here 
in Louisiana, USA

So if you buy water by the 1/2 liter it is more expensive then gas, but 
gallon by gallon it's 1/3rd the price or cheaper.

Logan Vilas
Bio-Fuel Enterprises, Inc.

- Original Message - 
From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency


>
> David,
>
> I do not understand why it is silly to want to know the facts about
> the following,
>
> Jeromie Reeves wrote:
>
>>Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap
>>fuel as I pay WAY
>>more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water.
>>
>>Jeromie
>>
>>Andrew Netherton wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment
>>>if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our
>>>cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.
>>>
>>>Andrew Netherton
>
> I live in Europe and we pay WAY more for the fuel than bottled water.
>
> Hakan
>
>
> At 22:44 09/03/2006, you wrote:
>>Hakan Falk wrote:
>> > That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I
>> > understand,
>> >
>> <http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm>http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm
>> > @ $1.453 per gallon.
>> >
>> > So, what was wrong with the original statement?
>> > Nothing as I understand it.
>> >
>>
>>This is just silly.
>>
>>People want to make a point that gasoline is cheap in the US so they
>>come up with something that makes it sound cheaper than water.
>>
>>It's not enough that we're going to compare gasoline, an industrial
>>fuel, to food quality water that's packaged for individual consumption.
>>
>>Now we're going to compare the industrial, bought in large dollar
>>quantities, price of gasoline without any kind of road or sales tax to
>>water packaged for individual consumption with any and all applicable
>>taxes applied.
>>
>>If you really want to compare the price of gasoline to water, how about
>>using the price of water from the water company?  Oh, right, it's
>>because they charge cents per cubic foot and all of a sudden our
>>comparison looks silly.
>>
>>
>>Gasoline IS cheap in the US.  It's not highly taxed compared to the rest
>>of the world, and it doesn't include any of the external costs which
>>might double or triple the price.  It doesn't include the costs of its
>>use (global warming, pollution, health side-effects), the costs of it's
>>production (pollution, economic and social policies), or its procurement
>>(military intervention, social and economic policies).
>>
>>Rather than dredging up platitudes about it being "cheaper than water"
>>which just IMHO make people look silly , could we please talk about its
>>real costs?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>--- David
>>
>>___
>>Biofuel mailing list
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>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
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>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
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>>messages):
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>
>
>
> ___
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> messages):
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>
> 


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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Tom Irwin]

Hi All,
 
The comparison is kind of ridiculous unless it rains gasolene or diesel in your neck of the woods.
 
Tom
 


From: Marty Phee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 18:21:46 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiencyIf you exclude state and fed taxes water is much more valuable than gas.I think gas is 2.39 around me today.Find a spring, put it into a fancy bottle and your rich.Hakan Falk wrote:> That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I > understand,> <http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm>http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm> @ $1.453 per gallon.>> So, what was wrong with the original statement?> Nothing as I understand it.>> Hakan>>> At 21:25 09/03/2006, you wrote:> >> Depends.>>>> Supermarket filtered by the gallon probably runs around $2/gallon.>>>> Name brand around $4/gallon to $20/gallon.>>>> Home delivered 5 gallon jugs ~$1.80/gallon>> Same company 24 .5L is $2.20/gallon>>>> Hakan Falk wrote:>> >>> Question is how much does a gallon of bottled water cost in US?>>>>>> Hakan>>>>>>>>> At 19:59 09/03/2006, you wrote:>>>>>> >>>> Here's a better one (more current and longer time range)>>>>>>>> ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


 
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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid efficiency

[Andy Karpay]

First, it should be noted that, while relative costs can be informative,
it is difficult to compare the cost of bottled water to gasoline,
diesel, etc.  What would the water cost if you brought a 20 gallon tank
to the "water plant" and filled it?  What would gasoline cost if sold in
1 liter or 4 liter containers off the shelf?

Second:  Hybrid automobiles do not necessarily tout to "save" money.  It
is a system that uses less fuel/mile.  That's less pollution, CO2 etc.
The overall cost to operate may be less, or more than "conventional",
but shouldn't matter.  Those who can afford the up front costs should
use the technology.  (Give up their SUV for a hybrid?).  In the long
run, it is a valuable investment in our future.  Oh yeah, by the way,
You'll also run "lower" than average fuel costs in operation.  I'm sure
there is a pattern of use (long over road miles vs. short in-town
commuting) that will obtain maximum efficiency, and can yield the user
monetary benefit over conventional.  Those outside the curve may not get
the max benefit, but will benefit the world. Cost of battery
maintenance/life is an unknown.

A similar comparison is solar voltaic electric.  Costs now run
$25,000-$30,000 US to solar power a house.  Depending on where you live
the cost and % augmentation required will vary, obviously.  Payback is
probably 15-20 years.  Again, at first more wealthy can afford the
technology.  But as more and more is purchased and manufactured the cost
will come down, technology will improve, and by and by more will be able
to afford - until we see micro generation occurring at most houses.
Power plants will still be required to supplement, and for industry, but
a large percent can be produced this way.  Point is, that at first the
cost is almost unreachable for most, but further use will bring it in
for all, and for the betterment of the world.  If as much money were
subsidized into solar as they use for nuclear, coal (and the war) etc it
wouldn't be too long before we all had collectors on our houses.




Hakan,

The price depends on volume purchased and it doesn't make much
sense. 
Distilled water costs 60 cents to 1.50 for a gallon depending on brand.
1/2 
liter bottled water costs 1 dollar, but at the same store I can buy 1
gallon 
of the same brand for .80 cents. I just have to walk down the isle
instead 
of grabing it at the checkout counter. Then you can buy filtered water
for 
as cheap as 30 cents a gallon. At least that's the local grocery store
here 
in Louisiana, USA

So if you buy water by the 1/2 liter it is more expensive then gas,
but 
gallon by gallon it's 1/3rd the price or cheaper.

Logan Vilas
Bio-Fuel Enterprises, Inc.

- Original Message - 
From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency


>
> David,
>
> I do not understand why it is silly to want to know the facts about
> the following,
>
> Jeromie Reeves wrote:
>
>>Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap
>>fuel as I pay WAY
>>more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water.
>>
>>Jeromie
>>
>>Andrew Netherton wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment
>>>if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our
>>>cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.
>>>
>>>Andrew Netherton
>
> I live in Europe and we pay WAY more for the fuel than bottled water.
>
> Hakan
>
>
> At 22:44 09/03/2006, you wrote:
>>Hakan Falk wrote:
>> > That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I
>> > understand,
>> >
>>
<http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm>http://www.bairdpet
ro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm
>> > @ $1.453 per gallon.
>> >
>> > So, what was wrong with the original statement?
>> > Nothing as I understand it.
>> >
>>
>>This is just silly.
>>
>>People want to make a point that gasoline is cheap in the US so they
>>come up with something that makes it sound cheaper than water.
>>
>>It's not enough that we're going to compare gasoline, an industrial
>>fuel, to food quality water that's packaged for individual
consumption.
>>
>>Now we're going to compare the industrial, bought in large dollar
>>quantities, price of gasoline without any kind of road or sales tax to
>>water packaged for individual consumption with any and all applicable
>>taxes applied.
>>
>>If you really want to compare the price of gasoline to water, how
about
>>using the price of water from t

Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[MH]

I was listening to a radio program about Hybrid cars. 
 The two state of WI dealerships mentioned dealership
 battery replacement costs were decreasing to US$3000
 and they figured they might reach US$1500 as new
 models hit the road over the coming years. 

 They talked about battery warranty and they figured
 they'd last 200,000 miles.  I've had gasoline cars
 go 240,000 miles before rebuilding the engine, trany
 or differential exceeding the manufacture warranty. 

 Something else they said about the Honda and Toyota
 were they could continue to run without the battery
 pack but with reduced fuel efficiency in the city. 

 Resale value is still quite high for
 hybrids and diesels around my area
 although I'm having difficulty finding
 my older Geo Metro's but their around. 

 I wouldn't mind a diesel or a E85 hybrid
 in a fuel efficient version for local use. 
 I prefer my bicycle and limit my
 internal combustion use when needed. 

 Thank you Mark. 
 Enjoyed reading your thoughts. 



Thompson, Mark L. (PNB R&D) wrote:
> 
> I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel.
> 
> The financial numbers just don't work.
> 
> My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far)
> 45 mpg @ City Driving
> 55 mpg @ 60 mph
> 50 mpg @ 75 mph
> 
> My cost is (City)$2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not including
> normal maintenance)
> My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not including
> normal maintenance)
> Average5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
> 
> My neighbors Prius gets
> 55 mpg @ City Driving
> 51 mpg @ 60 mph
> 
>Cost is (City)$2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not including
> normal maintenance)
>Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not including
> normal maintenance)
> Average4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
> Plus Battery Deprecation
> 8 year/100k miles/$7000
> $7000/100K = 7 cents/mile
> 
> Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles
> 
> 
> Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes:
> http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.html
> Diesel  = 1.036 euro/Liter
> Petro(95)   = 1.209 euro/Liter
> 
> Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal)
> Diesel =  1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal
> Petro  =  1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal
> 
> My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far)
> 45 mpg @ City Driving
> 55 mpg @ 60 mph
> 50 mpg @ 75 mph
> 
> My cost is (City)$4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not including
> normal maintenance)
> My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 =  8.5 cents a mile (not including
> normal maintenance)
> Average9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
> 
> My neighbors Prius gets
> 55 mpg @ City Driving
> 51 mpg @ 60 mph
> 
>Cost is (City)$5.45/60 =  9.0 cents a mile (not including
> normal maintenance)
>Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not including
> normal maintenance)
> Average9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
> Plus Battery Deprecation
> 8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330
> $8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile
> 
> Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles
> 
> In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of a
> hybrid.
> 
> Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy.
> My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles.
> My current one is at 243,000 miles and still running strong.
> My guess is if you can get 200K-250K out of a hybrid gas engine you are
> doing good.
> 
> Also working on diesel is relatively straight forward. Will have to say
> VW has coupled the computer to the engine quite tightly. It make for
> interesting trouble shooting when things are not working perfectly.
> 
> Mark
> 
> Andrew Netherton wrote:
> 
> >I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment
> >if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our
> >cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.
> >
> >Andrew Netherton
> >
> 
> ___
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Kenji James Fuse]

Does anybody have any info on hydrid diesels in North America?

My friend is interestd in the idea and would probably buy one, but we
can't find anything on the market. Aren't passenger car diesel hybrids up
and running in Europe?

Kenji Fuse

On Fri, 10 Mar 2006, MH wrote:

> I was listening to a radio program about Hybrid cars.
>  The two state of WI dealerships mentioned dealership
>  battery replacement costs were decreasing to US$3000
>  and they figured they might reach US$1500 as new
>  models hit the road over the coming years.
>
>  They talked about battery warranty and they figured
>  they'd last 200,000 miles.  I've had gasoline cars
>  go 240,000 miles before rebuilding the engine, trany
>  or differential exceeding the manufacture warranty.
>
>  Something else they said about the Honda and Toyota
>  were they could continue to run without the battery
>  pack but with reduced fuel efficiency in the city.
>
>  Resale value is still quite high for
>  hybrids and diesels around my area
>  although I'm having difficulty finding
>  my older Geo Metro's but their around.
>
>  I wouldn't mind a diesel or a E85 hybrid
>  in a fuel efficient version for local use.
>  I prefer my bicycle and limit my
>  internal combustion use when needed.
>
>  Thank you Mark.
>  Enjoyed reading your thoughts.
>
>
>
> Thompson, Mark L. (PNB R&D) wrote:
> >
> > I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel.
> >
> > The financial numbers just don't work.
> >
> > My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far)
> > 45 mpg @ City Driving
> > 55 mpg @ 60 mph
> > 50 mpg @ 75 mph
> >
> > My cost is (City)$2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not including
> > normal maintenance)
> > My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not including
> > normal maintenance)
> > Average5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
> >
> > My neighbors Prius gets
> > 55 mpg @ City Driving
> > 51 mpg @ 60 mph
> >
> >Cost is (City)$2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not including
> > normal maintenance)
> >Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not including
> > normal maintenance)
> > Average4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
> > Plus Battery Deprecation
> > 8 year/100k miles/$7000
> > $7000/100K = 7 cents/mile
> >
> > Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles
> >
> >
> > Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes:
> > http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.html
> > Diesel  = 1.036 euro/Liter
> > Petro(95)   = 1.209 euro/Liter
> >
> > Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal)
> > Diesel =  1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal
> > Petro  =  1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal
> >
> > My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far)
> > 45 mpg @ City Driving
> > 55 mpg @ 60 mph
> > 50 mpg @ 75 mph
> >
> > My cost is (City)$4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not including
> > normal maintenance)
> > My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 =  8.5 cents a mile (not including
> > normal maintenance)
> > Average9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
> >
> > My neighbors Prius gets
> > 55 mpg @ City Driving
> > 51 mpg @ 60 mph
> >
> >Cost is (City)$5.45/60 =  9.0 cents a mile (not including
> > normal maintenance)
> >Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not including
> > normal maintenance)
> > Average9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
> > Plus Battery Deprecation
> > 8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330
> > $8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile
> >
> > Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles
> >
> > In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of a
> > hybrid.
> >
> > Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy.
> > My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles.
> > My current one is at 243,000 miles and still running strong.
> > My guess is if you can get 200K-250K out of a hybrid gas engine you are
> > doing good.
> >
> > Also working on diesel is relatively straight forward. Will have to say
> > VW has coupled the computer to the engine quite tightly. It make for
> > interesting trouble shooting when things are not working perfectly.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > Andrew Netherton wrote:
> >
> > >I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment
> > >if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our
> > >cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.
> > >
> > >Andrew Netherton
> > >
> >
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archi

Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Darryl McMahon]

To my knowledge there are no hybrid diesels available in North America. 
  Nor any announced for the 2007 model year (among 23 entries).  This 
despite the fact that all the PNGV demonstration vehicles being 
diesel-electric hybrids.  Car makers are generally convinced diesels are 
taboo in North America.  Definitely a hard sell in California, the 
largest single market and leader on environmental automotive technology.

I'm not following Europe as closely, but they don't seem as keen on 
hybrids in general, preferring efficient diesels (e.g., Smart, several 
VW models, etc.)

I gather the Japanese are also passing on diesel hybrids, but are 
pursuing more aggressively-EV gasoline-electric hybrids.

Alas, my electric-diesel hybrid is still awaiting a controller 
fix/upgrade before we can do some real-world energy-consumption testing 
to size the diesel gen-set.

Darryl

Kenji James Fuse wrote:
> Does anybody have any info on hydrid diesels in North America?
> 
> My friend is interestd in the idea and would probably buy one, but we
> can't find anything on the market. Aren't passenger car diesel hybrids up
> and running in Europe?
> 
> Kenji Fuse
> 
> On Fri, 10 Mar 2006, MH wrote:
> 
> 
>>I was listening to a radio program about Hybrid cars.
>> The two state of WI dealerships mentioned dealership
>> battery replacement costs were decreasing to US$3000
>> and they figured they might reach US$1500 as new
>> models hit the road over the coming years.
>>
>> They talked about battery warranty and they figured
>> they'd last 200,000 miles.  I've had gasoline cars
>> go 240,000 miles before rebuilding the engine, trany
>> or differential exceeding the manufacture warranty.
>>
>> Something else they said about the Honda and Toyota
>> were they could continue to run without the battery
>> pack but with reduced fuel efficiency in the city.
>>
>> Resale value is still quite high for
>> hybrids and diesels around my area
>> although I'm having difficulty finding
>> my older Geo Metro's but their around.
>>
>> I wouldn't mind a diesel or a E85 hybrid
>> in a fuel efficient version for local use.
>> I prefer my bicycle and limit my
>> internal combustion use when needed.
>>
>> Thank you Mark.
>> Enjoyed reading your thoughts.
>>
>>
>>
>>Thompson, Mark L. (PNB R&D) wrote:
>>
>>>I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel.
>>>
>>>The financial numbers just don't work.
>>>
>>>My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far)
>>>45 mpg @ City Driving
>>>55 mpg @ 60 mph
>>>50 mpg @ 75 mph
>>>
>>>My cost is (City)$2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not including
>>>normal maintenance)
>>>My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not including
>>>normal maintenance)
>>>Average5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
>>>
>>>My neighbors Prius gets
>>>55 mpg @ City Driving
>>>51 mpg @ 60 mph
>>>
>>>   Cost is (City)$2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not including
>>>normal maintenance)
>>>   Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not including
>>>normal maintenance)
>>>Average4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
>>>Plus Battery Deprecation
>>>8 year/100k miles/$7000
>>>$7000/100K = 7 cents/mile
>>>
>>>Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles
>>>
>>>
>>>Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes:
>>>http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.html
>>>Diesel  = 1.036 euro/Liter
>>>Petro(95)   = 1.209 euro/Liter
>>>
>>>Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal)
>>>Diesel =  1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal
>>>Petro  =  1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal
>>>
>>>My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far)
>>>45 mpg @ City Driving
>>>55 mpg @ 60 mph
>>>50 mpg @ 75 mph
>>>
>>>My cost is (City)$4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not including
>>>normal maintenance)
>>>My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 =  8.5 cents a mile (not including
>>>normal maintenance)
>>>Average9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
>>>
>>>My neighbors Prius gets
>>>55 mpg @ City Driving
>>>51 mpg @ 60 mph
>>>
>>>   Cost is (City)$5.45/60 =  9.0 cents a mile (not including
>>>normal maintenance)
>>>   Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not including
>>>normal maintenance)
>>>Average9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
>>>Plus Battery Deprecation
>>>8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330
>>>$8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile
>>>
>>>Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles
>>>
>>>In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of a
>>>hybrid.
>>>
>>>Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy.
>>>My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles.
>>>My current one is at 243,000 miles and still running strong.
>>>My guess is if you can get 200K-250K out of a hybrid gas engine 

Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Zeke Yewdall]

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/01/31/psa-peugeot-citroen-unveils-diesel-hybrid-technology/

Citroen is going to introduce a diesel hybrid that gets 70mpg or more.
 By 2010 perhaps, according to the article.

On 3/11/06, Darryl McMahon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> To my knowledge there are no hybrid diesels available in North America.
>   Nor any announced for the 2007 model year (among 23 entries).  This
> despite the fact that all the PNGV demonstration vehicles being
> diesel-electric hybrids.  Car makers are generally convinced diesels are
> taboo in North America.  Definitely a hard sell in California, the
> largest single market and leader on environmental automotive technology.
>
> I'm not following Europe as closely, but they don't seem as keen on
> hybrids in general, preferring efficient diesels (e.g., Smart, several
> VW models, etc.)
>
> I gather the Japanese are also passing on diesel hybrids, but are
> pursuing more aggressively-EV gasoline-electric hybrids.
>
> Alas, my electric-diesel hybrid is still awaiting a controller
> fix/upgrade before we can do some real-world energy-consumption testing
> to size the diesel gen-set.
>
> Darryl
>
> Kenji James Fuse wrote:
> > Does anybody have any info on hydrid diesels in North America?
> >
> > My friend is interestd in the idea and would probably buy one, but we
> > can't find anything on the market. Aren't passenger car diesel hybrids up
> > and running in Europe?
> >
> > Kenji Fuse
> >
> > On Fri, 10 Mar 2006, MH wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I was listening to a radio program about Hybrid cars.
> >> The two state of WI dealerships mentioned dealership
> >> battery replacement costs were decreasing to US$3000
> >> and they figured they might reach US$1500 as new
> >> models hit the road over the coming years.
> >>
> >> They talked about battery warranty and they figured
> >> they'd last 200,000 miles.  I've had gasoline cars
> >> go 240,000 miles before rebuilding the engine, trany
> >> or differential exceeding the manufacture warranty.
> >>
> >> Something else they said about the Honda and Toyota
> >> were they could continue to run without the battery
> >> pack but with reduced fuel efficiency in the city.
> >>
> >> Resale value is still quite high for
> >> hybrids and diesels around my area
> >> although I'm having difficulty finding
> >> my older Geo Metro's but their around.
> >>
> >> I wouldn't mind a diesel or a E85 hybrid
> >> in a fuel efficient version for local use.
> >> I prefer my bicycle and limit my
> >> internal combustion use when needed.
> >>
> >> Thank you Mark.
> >> Enjoyed reading your thoughts.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Thompson, Mark L. (PNB R&D) wrote:
> >>
> >>>I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel.
> >>>
> >>>The financial numbers just don't work.
> >>>
> >>>My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far)
> >>>45 mpg @ City Driving
> >>>55 mpg @ 60 mph
> >>>50 mpg @ 75 mph
> >>>
> >>>My cost is (City)$2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not including
> >>>normal maintenance)
> >>>My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not including
> >>>normal maintenance)
> >>>Average5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
> >>>
> >>>My neighbors Prius gets
> >>>55 mpg @ City Driving
> >>>51 mpg @ 60 mph
> >>>
> >>>   Cost is (City)$2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not including
> >>>normal maintenance)
> >>>   Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not including
> >>>normal maintenance)
> >>>Average4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
> >>>Plus Battery Deprecation
> >>>8 year/100k miles/$7000
> >>>$7000/100K = 7 cents/mile
> >>>
> >>>Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes:
> >>>http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.html
> >>>Diesel  = 1.036 euro/Liter
> >>>Petro(95)   = 1.209 euro/Liter
> >>>
> >>>Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal)
> >>>Diesel =  1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal
> >>>Petro  =  1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal
> >>>
> >>>My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far)
> >>>45 mpg @ City Driving
> >>>55 mpg @ 60 mph
> >>>50 mpg @ 75 mph
> >>>
> >>>My cost is (City)$4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not including
> >>>normal maintenance)
> >>>My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 =  8.5 cents a mile (not including
> >>>normal maintenance)
> >>>Average9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
> >>>
> >>>My neighbors Prius gets
> >>>55 mpg @ City Driving
> >>>51 mpg @ 60 mph
> >>>
> >>>   Cost is (City)$5.45/60 =  9.0 cents a mile (not including
> >>>normal maintenance)
> >>>   Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not including
> >>>normal maintenance)
> >>>Average9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving)
> >>>Plus Battery Deprecation
> >>>8 year/100k miles

Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[E. C.]

Hey Joe
When's the last time you saw the movie "Chinatown"
(Faye Dunaway was gorgeous)?
point: been there, done that -- as with most
corporatocracy scams -- but time's running out!  If We
The People don't get up on our hind legs and seriously
do things to change to a sustainable lifestyle SOON
(and the task is 'way too enormous to be entrusted to
the elites), it isn't going to matter: Ma Nature will
take care of it; she's the only one who has eternity
as a time-frame!
E. Allen Cartwright 

--- Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hey Andrew don't forget we are sitting on a virtual
> goldmine in terms of 
> fresh water here in Canada.  In many places in the
> USA I've heard they 
> are already feeling the pinch for water and it is
> getting worse.  I'm 
> wondering if we could set something up where maybe
> we could use beavers 
> as a slave labour force in the water trade.  What do
> you say?
> 
> Joe
> 
> Andrew Netherton wrote:
> 
> >I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick
> return on investment
> >if they had done the study based on European fuel
> costs, and not our
> >cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North
> America.
> >
> >Andrew Netherton
> >
> >
> >On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup
> Cost Within 5 Years
> >>
> >><
>
http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news
> >
> >>
> >>Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the
> cost analysis
> >> in a story that examines the ownership costs and
> financial
> >>  benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story,
> titled
> >>  "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in
> the Annual April
> >>   Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now.
> >>
> >>Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error
> involving
> >> the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles
> that, in the
> >> story, were compared to their conventionally
> powered
> >> counterparts. The error led the publication to
> overstate
> >>  how much extra money the hybrids will cost
> owners during
> >>   the first five years.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>full article
> >>
> >><
>
http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Get your daily alternative energy news
> >>
> >> Alternate Energy Resource Network
> >>   1000+ news sources-resources
> >> updated daily
> >>
> >>http://www.alternate-energy.net
> >>
> >>
> >>Next Generation Grid
>
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/
> >>
> >>
> >>Tomorrow-energy
> >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/
> >>
> >>
> >>Alternative Energy Politics
>
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>___
> >>Biofuel mailing list
> >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>
>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >>
> >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >>
> >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
> archives (50,000 messages):
>
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >___
> >Biofuel mailing list
> >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
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> >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
> archives (50,000 messages):
>
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > ___
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>
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> 
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
> archives (50,000 messages):
>
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> 
> 




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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency

[Joe Street]

Good points E.Allen;

I haven't seen that one.  I'll have to look for it.  Since you say Faye
looked so gorgeous but I take it that was from a better time when
actresses didn't have to get naked in order to elicit such a reaction. 
But then maybe there will be a remake with Halley Berry..?  Ya neva
know!

Joe

E. C. wrote:

  Hey Joe
When's the last time you saw the movie "Chinatown"
(Faye Dunaway was gorgeous)?
point: been there, done that -- as with most
corporatocracy scams -- but time's running out!  If We
The People don't get up on our hind legs and seriously
do things to change to a sustainable lifestyle SOON
(and the task is 'way too enormous to be entrusted to
the elites), it isn't going to matter: Ma Nature will
take care of it; she's the only one who has eternity
as a time-frame!
E. Allen Cartwright 

--- Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  
  
Hey Andrew don't forget we are sitting on a virtual
goldmine in terms of 
fresh water here in Canada.  In many places in the
USA I've heard they 
are already feeling the pinch for water and it is
getting worse.  I'm 
wondering if we could set something up where maybe
we could use beavers 
as a slave labour force in the water trade.  What do
you say?

Joe

Andrew Netherton wrote:



  I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick
  

return on investment


  if they had done the study based on European fuel
  

costs, and not our


  cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North
  

America.


  Andrew Netherton


On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork
  

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


   

  
  
Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup

  

Cost Within 5 Years


  
<

  

  
  http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news
  
  

  
Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the

  

cost analysis


  
in a story that examines the ownership costs and

  

financial


  
 benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story,

  

titled


  
 "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in

  

the Annual April


  
  Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now.

Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error

  

involving


  
the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles

  

that, in the


  
story, were compared to their conventionally

  

powered


  
counterparts. The error led the publication to

  

overstate


  
 how much extra money the hybrids will cost

  

owners during


  
  the first five years.



full article

<

  

  
  http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news
  
  

  




Get your daily alternative energy news

Alternate Energy Resource Network
  1000+ news sources-resources
updated daily

http://www.alternate-energy.net


Next Generation Grid

  


  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/
  
  

Tomorrow-energy
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/


Alternative Energy Politics

  


  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/
  
  


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Re: [biofuel] HYBRID HORSEPOWER

[Bryan Fullerton]

Yeah but tell me this! Why do these companies build their hybrid around
Gasoline? I should think Diesel would make allot more sense.. Improving even
more on their mileage...

--Bryan


- Original Message -
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 1:06 AM
Subject: [biofuel] HYBRID HORSEPOWER


> ENN Multimedia
>
> HYBRID HORSEPOWER
> Hybrid cars save gasoline by getting some of their power
> from electricity. Drivers can still hop in, start up and
> drive, but they'll go a lot farther on a gallon of gas.
> Richard Hoops reports from Earthwatch Radio. (2 min.)
>
> Source: Environmental News Network
>
> http://enn.com/enn-multimedia-archive/2000/10/10262000/eart_39323.asp
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] HYBRID HORSEPOWER

[Keith Addison]

The PNGV cars are all diesel hybrids.

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
Handmade Projects
Tokyo
http://journeytoforever.org/

 

>Yeah but tell me this! Why do these companies build their hybrid around
>Gasoline? I should think Diesel would make allot more sense.. Improving even
>more on their mileage...
>
>--Bryan
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 1:06 AM
>Subject: [biofuel] HYBRID HORSEPOWER
>
>
> > ENN Multimedia
> >
> > HYBRID HORSEPOWER
> > Hybrid cars save gasoline by getting some of their power
> > from electricity. Drivers can still hop in, start up and
> > drive, but they'll go a lot farther on a gallon of gas.
> > Richard Hoops reports from Earthwatch Radio. (2 min.)
> >
> > Source: Environmental News Network
> >
> > http://enn.com/enn-multimedia-archive/2000/10/10262000/eart_39323.asp
> >
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [biofuel] HYBRID HORSEPOWER

[Bryan Fullerton]

Sorry but PNGV? Where did you find the info on this?

thanks --Bryan


- Original Message -
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] HYBRID HORSEPOWER


> The PNGV cars are all diesel hybrids.
>
> Keith Addison
> Journey to Forever
> Handmade Projects
> Tokyo
> http://journeytoforever.org/
>
>
>
> >Yeah but tell me this! Why do these companies build their hybrid around
> >Gasoline? I should think Diesel would make allot more sense.. Improving
even
> >more on their mileage...
> >
> >--Bryan
> >
> >
> >- Original Message -
> >From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: 
> >Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 1:06 AM
> >Subject: [biofuel] HYBRID HORSEPOWER
> >
> >
> > > ENN Multimedia
> > >
> > > HYBRID HORSEPOWER
> > > Hybrid cars save gasoline by getting some of their power
> > > from electricity. Drivers can still hop in, start up and
> > > drive, but they'll go a lot farther on a gallon of gas.
> > > Richard Hoops reports from Earthwatch Radio. (2 min.)
> > >
> > > Source: Environmental News Network
> > >
> > > http://enn.com/enn-multimedia-archive/2000/10/10262000/eart_39323.asp
> > >
> > >
> > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] HYBRID HORSEPOWER

[Keith Addison]

Info on diesel hybrids at:
Do diesels have a future?
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html

"The US government/industry collaboration Partnership for a New 
Generation of Vehicles (PNGV) is set to reduce carbon dioxide 
emissions by developing ultra-clean, 80 miles-per-gallon (34 
km/litre) 'hypercars' by 2004, without sacrificing comfort, safety or 
performance. Cleaner and efficient diesel engines are a key focus of 
PNGV research."

With links to technology information and to three prototype cars (up 
to 80 mpg already), heavy-duty vehicles, a pickup truck, and the US 
Army's new hybrid diesel-electric "stealth" Humvee, which accelerates 
like a Ferrari. And, um, sorry, a picture of one Albert J. Gore Jr., 
who says he doesn't like cars but does like diesels.

I originally wrote that page when we were still in Hong Kong and I 
was irritated by mindless government diesel-bashing driven by a quest 
for approval ratings rather than brain cells, along with a total 
neglect of anything resembling a solution. This is an amusing read:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_hk.html
Similar things here in Tokyo on the part of populist Mayor Ishihara 
(a novelist), but not nearly so dire.

Best

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
Handmade Projects
Tokyo
http://journeytoforever.org/

 

>Sorry but PNGV? Where did you find the info on this?
>
>thanks --Bryan
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 1:42 PM
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] HYBRID HORSEPOWER
>
>
> > The PNGV cars are all diesel hybrids.
> >
> > Keith Addison
> > Journey to Forever
> > Handmade Projects
> > Tokyo
> > http://journeytoforever.org/
> >
> >
> >
> > >Yeah but tell me this! Why do these companies build their hybrid around
> > >Gasoline? I should think Diesel would make allot more sense.. Improving
>even
> > >more on their mileage...
> > >
> > >--Bryan
> > >
> > >
> > >- Original Message -
> > >From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To: 
> > >Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 1:06 AM
> > >Subject: [biofuel] HYBRID HORSEPOWER
> > >
> > >
> > > > ENN Multimedia
> > > >
> > > > HYBRID HORSEPOWER
> > > > Hybrid cars save gasoline by getting some of their power
> > > > from electricity. Drivers can still hop in, start up and
> > > > drive, but they'll go a lot farther on a gallon of gas.
> > > > Richard Hoops reports from Earthwatch Radio. (2 min.)
> > > >
> > > > Source: Environmental News Network
> > > >
> > > > http://enn.com/enn-multimedia-archive/2000/10/10262000/eart_39323.asp
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > >To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Tim Schlueter]

The price of gas in UK is striking!  Attached is a fuel price report
published by The Automobile Association of UK.  I calculate the US
dollar cost of a US gallon of 95 octane(don't know ethanol content)
purchased in the UK to be $5.77.  This is closer to the Ireland cost
quoted below vs. the England quote.  Actually, this report shows Irish
gas costing more than English.  It also interesting to note that "tax"
accounts for 69.9% of the total cost!  Can that be right!  In Missouri
we pay $.3543/gallon or about 16%.

Tim Schlueter

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paddy
O'Reilly
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 12:24 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

I'm not sure what the average price of "gas" (aka petrol) is in the US, 
in Ireland it has just passed the Euro mark per litre - that's USD5.44 a

gallon and in England its about 90p per litre - that's USD8.17 a gallon.

Perhaps this kind of price in the US will be enough to get people's 
attention (George Bush and his cohorts would be delighted at this
price).

Unfortunately nothing significant is still being done in Europe about 
changing to biofuels.

Bill Vaughn wrote:

>
> Mean while the Japanese figured out how to make hybrids at a prices to

> sell to the American public. Seems there is a line waiting for the 
> hybrids now because of the souring gas prices. Again the big three are

> slow to answer to the American public and their sinking sales prove 
> once again they don't have a clue.
>
> Bill 



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RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Chris Lloyd]

> It also interesting to note that "tax" accounts for 69.9% of the total
cost!  Can that be right! <

YES it bloody well is and some places charge up to 7 dollars for a sized
US gallon.   Chris. 

Wessex Ferret Club  (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk)

 


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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Newdlhead]

In a message dated 6/30/05 8:58:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Unfortunately Ireland is becoming more and more a car-oriented country 
 and cyclists have to take to the pavement/footpath to feel safe. This is 
 in turn desensitising car drivers to the presence of other road users, 
 teaching cyclists to ignore correct rules of the road and cause even 
 more use of cars as parents consider it safer to drive their kids the 
 whole half mile to school rather than have them walk. >>

Great, just wait till the mcdonald franches take hold, those kids will get as 
heavy as those in the states.

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RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Tim Schlueter]

Reminds me of this quote by Ronald Reagan almost 20 years ago:
"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short
phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it
stops moving, subsidize it."  I suppose the idea behind this tax is to
make people pay the true cost of burning dino fuels.  I have to wonder
though for what this tax really pays?

Tim Schlueter
Missouri

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Lloyd
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 5:36 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

> It also interesting to note that "tax" accounts for 69.9% of the total
cost!  Can that be right! <

YES it bloody well is and some places charge up to 7 dollars for a sized
US gallon.   Chris. 

Wessex Ferret Club  (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk)

 


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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[capt3d]

hi, frantz.  here in the usa we call that car-pooling!

-chris

In a message dated 6/30/05 5:23:40 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< "co-voiturage" (don't know the right 

translation in English : co-conveyance or car sharing ?). >>


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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[capt3d]

hello paddy and frantz.

i didn't understand this exchange.  what's this about turf?  wold appreciate 
the education.

-chris


In a message dated 6/30/05 6:58:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Believe me, with the amount of smoke coming from some of the exhausts 

its as if the vehicles were running on turf. However that route (pardon 

the pun) is being stopped since the government environment body has put 

a stop to the erosion of the countryside by turf-cutting. >>


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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Chris]

Wood gasification, using peat instead of wood?  (Burning the 'smoke' in a 
regular car engine.)


Chris K
Cayce, SC

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel



hello paddy and frantz.

i didn't understand this exchange.  what's this about turf?  wold 
appreciate

the education.

-chris


In a message dated 6/30/05 6:58:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Believe me, with the amount of smoke coming from some of the exhausts

its as if the vehicles were running on turf. However that route (pardon

the pun) is being stopped since the government environment body has put

a stop to the erosion of the countryside by turf-cutting. >>


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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Frantz DESPREZ]

Chris a écrit :

Wood gasification, using peat instead of wood?  (Burning the 'smoke' 
in a regular car engine.)


exactly

But Paddy was right when he objected me that it is not ecological. 
Peat-bogs are very special habitats for fauna and flora (i.e. 
carnivorous plants) and they need thousands years to regerenate. We 
should consider them as fossil carbon preserves (the future oil fields 
of Ireland ;-) ) and biodiversity preserves.
I was kidding because I worked in one "turf" extraction plant and the 
boss was running a furnace with it. The smell and the smoke were ... 
exotic to me. Guinness bier matched well with the smoky taste of the 
Irish stew cooked in the furnace.
Good remembers. But also, I was sorry to see how Ireland was spending 
it's natural ressources (not only peat, but also chemical pollution or 
sea overexploitation).
I hope that the Irish laws on environment protection have been improved, 
it's a so nice country.


frantz

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RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Bill Vaughn]

To me the VW diesels sold in America are the best bang for the buck. They 
get 50mpg and they can be ran on biodiesel. My total cost per gallon for 
biodiesel is way less than $1 US. As long as I can make my own fuel I will 
be making it and I buy nothing but diesels. To me a diesel hybrid is not 
worth the extra expense because of the hybrid part. Economical diesels are 
the way to go.


Bill


From: "Thompson, Mark L. (PNB R&D)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: 
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:11:24 -0700

Yes but there is the issue of Battery life and cost.
The batteries are warranted for 8-10 year or 80K/100K miles.
Prorated - Who knows.
There cost is in the $7000 bracket.

So lets see, My Toyota Camry 1985 has 321K miles no rebuilds.
I will admit it is near death.
It get 27 odd MPG. 31 on the freeway.
I will make the assumption that maintained cost are about equal for both
cars.
Assume the same time period and fuel prices.

So my cost of ownership is (Toyota Camry)
Fuel consumed = 321,000/27 = 11888 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50
Total fuel cost = $17,833
Cost per/year = $17,833/20years = $891 fuel costs.
Battery cost $0
total  = $891/year

So my cost of ownership is (VW Jetta)
Fuel consumed = 321,000/47 = 6829 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50
Total fuel cost = $10,244
Cost per/year = $10,244/20years = $512 fuel costs.
Battery cost $0
total  = $512/year

As a Honda with a 80K/$7000 battery 2005 Honda Accord
mileage 30/37 = avg around 35 mpg

Fuel consumed = 321,000/35 = 9171 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50
Total fuel cost = $13,757

Total batteries used @ 80k mile/bat  = 321/80 = 4.012 = 4
4 x 7000 = $28,000

Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $687  fuel costs.
Cost per/year = $28,000/20years = $1400 Battery costs.
total  = $2100/year  @ 80K battery

Assume a 150K battery = 2 changes = $14,000
Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $687  fuel costs.
Cost per/year = $14,000/20years = $700 Battery costs.
total  = $1387/year  @ 80K battery

As a Honda with a 100K/$7000 battery Insight
mileage 60/66 = avg around 63 mpg

Fuel consumed = 321,000/35 = 5095 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50
Total fuel cost = $7,642

Total batteries used @ 100k mile/bat  = 321/100 = 3.21 = 3
3 x 7000 = $21,000

Cost per/year = $7,642/20years  = $328  fuel costs.
Cost per/year = $21,000/20years = $1050 Battery costs.
total  = $1378/year  @ 100K battery

Assume a 150K battery = 2 changes = $14,000
Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $328  fuel costs.
Cost per/year = $14,000/20years = $700 Battery costs.
total  = $1028/year  @ 150K battery


Conclusion:
Toyota Camry 27mph  $891/year
Honda Accord$2100/year  @ 80K battery   135%
higher
Honda Accord$1387/year  @ 150K battery   56%
higher
Honda Insight   $1387/year  @ 100K battery   56%
higher
Honda Insight   $1024/year  @ 150K battery   14%
higher

VW Jetta$512/Year
Honda Accord$2100/year  @ 80K battery   310%
higher
Honda Accord$1387/year  @ 150K battery  170%
higher
Honda Insight   $1387/year  @ 100K battery  170%
higher
Honda Insight   $1024/year  @ 150K battery  100%
higher

So I see not cost benefit to Hybrids, my poor Camry is less
expensive.

And what about life expectancy. My last Diesel Rabbit was
retired at 450,000 miles. No rebuilds.

When gas get to $4+ a gallon then there could be a net advantage
to the hybrids, if the engine systems can last 20+ years.
But still will not compeate with the diesels.

Sorry the calculations do not include CO2 carbon credits.

Just random thoughts.
M




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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[KinsleyForPrez08]

Paddy,

Actually, according to the President's FY2006 budget to Congress, his 
administration proposed an $18 billion cut from the Dept of Defense budget 
(compared to FY2005).  I haven't finished looking to see if this was just 
hidden elsewhere (there were increases in "National Defense" in the Dept of 
Energy and other agencies), plus it doesn't include the "unexpected costs" 
of invading other countries like Afghanistan or Iraq.  It is true that the 
defense budget amounts 19% of the overall $2.568 TRILLION FY2006 federal 
budget, but what we really should be asking is what else are they wasting 
our money on?


Also, where is the $210 million from and what is it for?  From the FY2006 
budget, I see a lot more being put into areas of cleaning up the 
environment - In the EPA's budget alone there is about $1.5 billion for 
states to clean up water supplies, $121 million to clean up industrial 
brownfield sites, $10 million to retrofit school buses to reduce their 
emissions, $73 million to repair or remove leaking underground storage tanks 
and, finally $1.2 billion to clean up Superfund sites.  That's something 
like just under $3 billion on cleaning up our environmental messes.


I agree that this Administration has been rather relaxed on helping to 
prevent environment problems, but then can you blame them?  Many of the 
members of this administration are from either the oil or defense 
industries, two areas that are the worse contributors to enviromnental 
destruction there ever was.  To them, saving the environment means losing 
money.  And it is our fault for putting them in office (well not my fault, I 
voted Libertarian).  Next time let's keep the money-grubbing, 
wilderness-drilling, nation-conquering, "we don't count civilian casualties" 
politicians out of office in the next election, and maybe we will have a 
chance to save the environment (and our own pocketbooks).


I encourage you to look at the budget and determine for yourself what they 
are wasting our money on.  Go to 
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy06/browse.html to look at the budget.


Thanks,

Earl Kinsley

- Original Message - 
From: "Paddy O'Reilly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel





I do
agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S.
taxpayer.







I'm sorry, but I have to comment on what's being said here.
Basically, the American tax dollar is begrudgingly given to help with
cleaning up our environment to the tune of 210 million (ever deflating)
US dollars yet a blind eye is being cast on the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of
those same dollars being wasted on the beloved American Defence Budget.
I heard somewhere that the INCREASE in the American defence budget this
year exceeds the total defence budgets of the next five largest defence
budgets of other "superpowers" put together.

And George won't even consider cancelling third nation debt (I suppose
it doesn't hold any immediate return for him so he doesn't care).

So putting the whole thing into perspective, the payment of 0.175% of
the American defence budget (which will be spent on developing new and
improved ways of wiping out the planet in the shortest time possible) on
helping some other Americans develop ways of reducing our dependence on
the Earth's natural resources is a waste of money while creating weapons
of mass destruction isn't.

Hmmm, methinks there's a slight imbalance in priorities here. The term
"Heck of an expensive program(me)" should be reserved for George Dubya's
retirement fund (aka defence budget).


As expensive as today's oil consumption is proving to be, in so many
different ways? And not just for the US taxpayer either.




IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3
automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'.




I've cut out as much as is reasonable from this email trail to preserve
bandwidth. Hope it still makes sense.
By the way, I'm using English spelling in this mail not the American
mutated version.


The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is 
confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended 
recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, 
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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[1michaelf]

Unfortunately voting Libertarian had nothing to do with getting 
rid of these extreemists...

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
 
=
Paddy,

Actually, according to the President's FY2006 budget to Congress, his 
administration proposed an $18 billion cut from the Dept of Defense budget 
(compared to FY2005).  I haven't finished looking to see if this was just 
hidden elsewhere (there were increases in "National Defense" in the Dept of 
Energy and other agencies), plus it doesn't include the "unexpected costs" 
of invading other countries like Afghanistan or Iraq.  It is true that the 
defense budget amounts 19% of the overall $2.568 TRILLION FY2006 federal 
budget, but what we really should be asking is what else are they wasting 
our money on?

Also, where is the $210 million from and what is it for?  From the FY2006 
budget, I see a lot more being put into areas of cleaning up the 
environment - In the EPA's budget alone there is about $1.5 billion for 
states to clean up water supplies, $121 million to clean up industrial 
brownfield sites, $10 million to retrofit school buses to reduce their 
emissions, $73 million to repair or remove leaking underground storage tanks 
and, finally $1.2 billion to clean up Superfund sites.  That's something 
like just under $3 billion on cleaning up our environmental messes.

I agree that this Administration has been rather relaxed on helping to 
prevent environment problems, but then can you blame them?  Many of the 
members of this administration are from either the oil or defense 
industries, two areas that are the worse contributors to enviromnental 
destruction there ever was.  To them, saving the environment means losing 
money.  And it is our fault for putting them in office (well not my fault, I 
voted Libertarian).  Next time let's keep the money-grubbing, 
wilderness-drilling, nation-conquering, "we don't count civilian casualties" 
politicians out of office in the next election, and maybe we will have a 
chance to save the environment (and our own pocketbooks).

I encourage you to look at the budget and determine for yourself what they 
are wasting our money on.  Go to 
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy06/browse.html to look at the budget.

Thanks,

Earl Kinsley

- Original Message - 
From: "Paddy O'Reilly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel


>
>>>I do
>>>agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S.
>>>taxpayer.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> I'm sorry, but I have to comment on what's being said here.
> Basically, the American tax dollar is begrudgingly given to help with
> cleaning up our environment to the tune of 210 million (ever deflating)
> US dollars yet a blind eye is being cast on the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of
> those same dollars being wasted on the beloved American Defence Budget.
> I heard somewhere that the INCREASE in the American defence budget this
> year exceeds the total defence budgets of the next five largest defence
> budgets of other "superpowers" put together.
>
> And George won't even consider cancelling third nation debt (I suppose
> it doesn't hold any immediate return for him so he doesn't care).
>
> So putting the whole thing into perspective, the payment of 0.175% of
> the American defence budget (which will be spent on developing new and
> improved ways of wiping out the planet in the shortest time possible) on
> helping some other Americans develop ways of reducing our dependence on
> the Earth's natural resources is a waste of money while creating weapons
> of mass destruction isn't.
>
> Hmmm, methinks there's a slight imbalance in priorities here. The term
> "Heck of an expensive program(me)" should be reserved for George Dubya's
> retirement fund (aka defence budget).
>
>>As expensive as today's oil consumption is proving to be, in so many
>>different ways? And not just for the US taxpayer either.
>>
>>
>>
>>>IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3
>>>automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'.
>>>
>>>
>
> I've cut out as much as is reasonable from this email trail to preserve
> bandwidth. Hope it still makes sense.
> By the way, I'm using English spelling in this mail not the American
> mutated version.
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is 
> confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended 
> recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, 
> disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part 

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[RobertCVA]

If you haven't seen the summary pie chart on federal incomes and outlays, I 
suggest checking out page 74 of http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040gi.pdf
 
Bob
 
 
>In a message dated 7/9/2005 1:43:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Paddy,Actually, according to the President's FY2006 budget to 
  Congress, his administration proposed an $18 billion cut from the Dept of 
  Defense budget (compared to FY2005).  I haven't finished looking to 
  see if this was just hidden elsewhere (there were increases in "National 
  Defense" in the Dept of Energy and other agencies), plus it doesn't 
  include the "unexpected costs" of invading other countries like 
  Afghanistan or Iraq.  It is true that the defense budget amounts 19% 
  of the overall $2.568 TRILLION FY2006 federal budget, but what we really 
  should be asking is what else are they wasting our money on?Also, 
  where is the $210 million from and what is it for?  From the FY2006 
  budget, I see a lot more being put into areas of cleaning up the 
  environment - In the EPA's budget alone there is about $1.5 billion for 
  states to clean up water supplies, $121 million to clean up industrial 
  brownfield sites, $10 million to retrofit school buses to reduce their 
  emissions, $73 million to repair or remove leaking underground storage 
  tanks and, finally $1.2 billion to clean up Superfund sites.  That's 
  something like just under $3 billion on cleaning up our environmental 
  messes.I agree that this Administration has been rather relaxed on 
  helping to prevent environment problems, but then can you blame 
  them?  Many of the members of this administration are from either the 
  oil or defense industries, two areas that are the worse contributors to 
  enviromnental destruction there ever was.  To them, saving the 
  environment means losing money.  And it is our fault for putting them 
  in office (well not my fault, I voted Libertarian).  Next time let's 
  keep the money-grubbing, wilderness-drilling, nation-conquering, "we don't 
  count civilian casualties" politicians out of office in the next election, 
  and maybe we will have a chance to save the environment (and our own 
  pocketbooks).I encourage you to look at the budget and determine for 
  yourself what they are wasting our money on.  Go to 
  http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy06/browse.html to look at the 
  budget.Thanks,Earl Kinsley

 
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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[r]

Anybody heard of the Direct Democracy League? What do you think of it?

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

  Unfortunately voting Libertarian had nothing to do with getting 
rid of these extreemists...

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
 
=
Paddy,

Actually, according to the President's FY2006 budget to Congress, his 
administration proposed an $18 billion cut from the Dept of Defense budget 
(compared to FY2005).  I haven't finished looking to see if this was just 
hidden elsewhere (there were increases in "National Defense" in the Dept of 
Energy and other agencies), plus it doesn't include the "unexpected costs" 
of invading other countries like Afghanistan or Iraq.  It is true that the 
defense budget amounts 19% of the overall $2.568 TRILLION FY2006 federal 
budget, but what we really should be asking is what else are they wasting 
our money on?

Also, where is the $210 million from and what is it for?  From the FY2006 
budget, I see a lot more being put into areas of cleaning up the 
environment - In the EPA's budget alone there is about $1.5 billion for 
states to clean up water supplies, $121 million to clean up industrial 
brownfield sites, $10 million to retrofit school buses to reduce their 
emissions, $73 million to repair or remove leaking underground storage tanks 
and, finally $1.2 billion to clean up Superfund sites.  That's something 
like just under $3 billion on cleaning up our environmental messes.

I agree that this Administration has been rather relaxed on helping to 
prevent environment problems, but then can you blame them?  Many of the 
members of this administration are from either the oil or defense 
industries, two areas that are the worse contributors to enviromnental 
destruction there ever was.  To them, saving the environment means losing 
money.  And it is our fault for putting them in office (well not my fault, I 
voted Libertarian).  Next time let's keep the money-grubbing, 
wilderness-drilling, nation-conquering, "we don't count civilian casualties" 
politicians out of office in the next election, and maybe we will have a 
chance to save the environment (and our own pocketbooks).

I encourage you to look at the budget and determine for yourself what they 
are wasting our money on.  Go to 
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy06/browse.html to look at the budget.

Thanks,

Earl Kinsley

- Original Message - 
From: "Paddy O'Reilly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel


  
  

  
I do
agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S.
taxpayer.



  
  
  

I'm sorry, but I have to comment on what's being said here.
Basically, the American tax dollar is begrudgingly given to help with
cleaning up our environment to the tune of 210 million (ever deflating)
US dollars yet a blind eye is being cast on the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of
those same dollars being wasted on the beloved American Defence Budget.
I heard somewhere that the INCREASE in the American defence budget this
year exceeds the total defence budgets of the next five largest defence
budgets of other "superpowers" put together.

And George won't even consider cancelling third nation debt (I suppose
it doesn't hold any immediate return for him so he doesn't care).

So putting the whole thing into perspective, the payment of 0.175% of
the American defence budget (which will be spent on developing new and
improved ways of wiping out the planet in the shortest time possible) on
helping some other Americans develop ways of reducing our dependence on
the Earth's natural resources is a waste of money while creating weapons
of mass destruction isn't.

Hmmm, methinks there's a slight imbalance in priorities here. The term
"Heck of an expensive program(me)" should be reserved for George Dubya's
retirement fund (aka defence budget).



  As expensive as today's oil consumption is proving to be, in so many
different ways? And not just for the US taxpayer either.



  
  
IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3
automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'.



  

I've cut out as much as is reasonable from this email trail to preserve
bandwidth. Hope it still makes sense.
By the way, I'm using English spelling in this mail not the American
mutated version.


The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is 
confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended 
recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, 
disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If 
you have received this e-mail in error, ple

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Keith Addison]

Hello Richard


Anybody heard of the Direct Democracy League? What do you think of it?


Not heard of them, but there are some previous discussions following 
a direct democracy initiative in Gibralter planned by list member 
James, you might find it interesting:


http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg18457.html
[biofuel] Direct Democracy

The whole thread is linked at the end of the page.

Best wishes

Keith



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Unfortunately voting Libertarian had nothing to do with getting
rid of these extreemists...

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

=
Paddy,





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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Mike Weaver]

NLRB?  OSHA?  At least before the present administration.

Also, most employment in the US is termed "at will" either side can fire 
the other.


I agree it's far from perfect, and leads to abuses, but the opposite, 
making it impossible to fire workers, is worse.  I worked some in
Bamako, Mali, and no one will hire anyone because they can never be 
fired.  The result?  A worker's paradise?  Nope.  No jobs and no economy.


Look at the current donnybrook in France w/ Evian.





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

earl, i'm not familiar with any federal laws protecting workers, except for 
anti-discrimination laws.  if you're referring to more than that, please 
enlighten me.


as fro state laws, don't be fooled by what you found in PA.  many states have 
very poor worker protections.  for example, employers in many states can fire 
an employee for virtually any reason, because they are not required to have 
one.  so although it might be illegal for a company to fire someone for, say, 
refusing to commit a crime, they can still fire you without justification.  
leaving it up to the worker to taking legal action, if they can make a solid 
case.  this kind of employer power leads to many workers allowing their employer 
get away with a whole lot of things from which the law supposedly protects them.


best,

-chris

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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[John Hayes]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
earl, i'm not familiar with any federal laws protecting workers, except for 
anti-discrimination laws.  if you're referring to more than that, please 
enlighten me.


Chris are you serious? I can think of plenty of federal protection for 
workers off the top of my head.


a) minimum wage
b) overtime rules (40 hr work week for hourly employees)
c) OSHA
d) EPA
e) NLRB
f) maternity/paternity leave
g) child labor laws

You may think worker protection doesn't go far enough but we're 
certainly not talking about the grossly unregulated laissez faire 
capitalism that made unions so necessary at the turn of the *least* 
century. Children don't work in textile mills. Miners don't work 12 hr 
shifts 6 days a week.


Given these protections, the benefits of unionization are far less 
compelling than in the past. Given the drawbacks: dues, seniority over 
merit, inability to cut deadwood, inability to negotiate an individual 
contract, it isn't suprising that union membership has steadily declined 
over the past several decades.


as fro state laws, don't be fooled by what you found in PA.  many states have 
very poor worker protections.  for example, employers in many states can fire 
an employee for virtually any reason, because they are not required to have 
one.  so although it might be illegal for a company to fire someone for, say, 
refusing to commit a crime, they can still fire you without justification.  


Tthis is called "At-will employment" and is the norm under US law unless 
your contract explicitly stipulates otherwise. However, all states also 
have common law exception to the at-will rule for retaliatory discharge; 
if an employer fires you for refusing to commit a criminal act, they are 
legally accountable. But yes, barring whistle-blower retaliation, a US 
employer can typically fire an employee without cause as is required in 
some other countries.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_will_employment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

(wikipedia has two different pages on this topic)

I assume from your comments that you think federal labor laws should 
provide some job security provisions?





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RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[James G. Branaum]

Federal law DOES provide for job security in very specific circumstances.
However, they are not general or all inclusive.  I think Germany went down
that path with disastrous results.  Jobs seem to be for life, regardless of
skill or effort not spent in employers behalf.  I am pretty sure Japan was
on that path and realized it had bad end results in their last economic
downturn.

  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Hayes
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 10:19 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel




[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> earl, i'm not familiar with any federal laws protecting workers, except
for 
> anti-discrimination laws.  if you're referring to more than that, please 
> enlighten me.

Chris are you serious? I can think of plenty of federal protection for 
workers off the top of my head.

a) minimum wage
b) overtime rules (40 hr work week for hourly employees)
c) OSHA
d) EPA
e) NLRB
f) maternity/paternity leave
g) child labor laws

You may think worker protection doesn't go far enough but we're 
certainly not talking about the grossly unregulated laissez faire 
capitalism that made unions so necessary at the turn of the *least* 
century. Children don't work in textile mills. Miners don't work 12 hr 
shifts 6 days a week.

Given these protections, the benefits of unionization are far less 
compelling than in the past. Given the drawbacks: dues, seniority over 
merit, inability to cut deadwood, inability to negotiate an individual 
contract, it isn't suprising that union membership has steadily declined 
over the past several decades.

> as fro state laws, don't be fooled by what you found in PA.  many states
have 
> very poor worker protections.  for example, employers in many states can
fire 
> an employee for virtually any reason, because they are not required to
have 
> one.  so although it might be illegal for a company to fire someone for,
say, 
> refusing to commit a crime, they can still fire you without justification.


Tthis is called "At-will employment" and is the norm under US law unless 
your contract explicitly stipulates otherwise. However, all states also 
have common law exception to the at-will rule for retaliatory discharge; 
if an employer fires you for refusing to commit a criminal act, they are 
legally accountable. But yes, barring whistle-blower retaliation, a US 
employer can typically fire an employee without cause as is required in 
some other countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_will_employment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

(wikipedia has two different pages on this topic)

I assume from your comments that you think federal labor laws should 
provide some job security provisions?




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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[capt3d]

In a message dated 7/11/05 9:19:46 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Chris are you serious? I can think of plenty of federal protection for 

workers off the top of my head.


a) minimum wage

b) overtime rules (40 hr work week for hourly employees)

c) OSHA

d) EPA

e) NLRB

f) maternity/paternity leave

g) child labor laws >>

lol, okay, i deserved that for being too vague.  the only two listed, 
however, which are concrete and very clear to almost anyone, are (a) and (b).  
most 
people don't understand their rights under the rest of the items listed and 
they don't amount to much when, as i stated before, the employer has the kind 
of 
hire/fire power that "at will" (yes, i knew it was called that) allows.  and 
minimum wage is laughably inadequate.

those workers that can afford to risk termination because the boss sees them 
as a trouble-maker, are extremely few.  i say again, it is up to the worker to 
make the case that he/she was fired unjustly (e.g. for whiste-blowing; for 
refusing to engage in a unsafe work practice; for refusing to drive faster than 
the speed limit in order to expedite a delivery; etc.).  this process doesn't 
happen overnight, and isn't a sure bet either, if the employer is clever about 
how he/she goes about that which is being alleged.   besides, it's usually 
more pressing to find another job and restore the revenue stream.

i disagree about unions being less attractive because there are so many 
worker protections today.  much more significant is that most people are very 
cynical about unions for a whole range of reasons, including among other things 
the 
fact that they have been incrementally stripped of their effectiveness over 
the decades by employers who have learned to use loopholes in the law to their 
advantage.  and the fact that they have been so releltnlessly demonized it's 
almost taken for granted that the uniion leadership will be corrupt.  an image 
which is not entirely without foundation, but which has been exaggerated 
beyond all reason.

of course i don't suggest that employers not be able to fire their employees. 
 but there are still a lot of ways of extending protection to workers.  
requiring employers to give two weeks notice or two weeks severance (except in 
cases of theft; vandalism; assault), would be one.

-chris

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RE: [Biofuel] hybrid vehicles

[Mel Riser]

Not that I know of, but there is a hybrid boat drive system for Sailboats.

Solomon Technologies uses an electric motor that is driven by a diesel 
generator.

It also charges the batteries when you are sailing by turning the motor and 
generating electricity.

You should see the fuel consumption stats.

It uses HALF the fuel a conventional sailboat with the same power does.

mel

-Original Message-
From: Todd Wootton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 9:36 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Biofuel] hybrid vehicles


Is there such a thing as a hybrid diesel vehicle. Everything that I read about 
is of hybrid with internal cumbustion but we all know that diesel cars are much 
more fuel efficient. if we were to combine that with the extra fuel savings of 
a diesel vehicle and we use the biodiesel.-wow Todd Wootton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Home Office (905)473-5646
Cellular (705)794-1264
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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid vehicles

[Keith Addison]

Is there such a thing as a hybrid diesel vehicle. Everything that I 
read about is of hybrid with internal cumbustion but we all know 
that diesel cars are much more fuel efficient. if we were to combine 
that with the extra fuel savings of a diesel vehicle and we use the 
biodiesel.-wow


See PNGV:
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/?keywords=PNGV&time=all&usertime 
=2002-12-31

Information Archive at NNYTech

From previous:


The three vehicles developed in the US by the Big Three under the
abandoned PNGV program all achieved 80mpg and they were all
diesel-electric hybrids. There are some details here:

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html
Do diesels have a future?

Do an archive search for "PNGV" if you want an interesting read:
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/

This is a good place to start:
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30857/


Best wishes

Keith



Todd Wootton
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Home Office (905)473-5646
Cellular (705)794-1264


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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid vehicles

[Darryl McMahon]

Train engines (diesel locomotives).  Some hybrid buses. Some prototype truck 
tractors.  The Spincraft workboat (hybrid version).  There was a 
super-efficient 
high mileage one-off car done in Europe (either VW or Mercedes, I think).  PNGV 
prototypes (as noted by Keith already).  Couple of U.S. university project 
vehicles.  Nothing mainstream yet.  My vehicle remains a work in progress.

"Todd Wootton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> asked:

> Is there such a thing as a hybrid diesel vehicle. Everything that I read 
> about is of
> hybrid with internal cumbustion but we all know that diesel cars are much 
> more fuel
> efficient. if we were to combine that with the extra fuel savings of a diesel
> vehicle and we use the biodiesel.-wow Todd Wootton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home
> Office (905)473-5646 Cellular (705)794-1264

-- 
Darryl McMahon  http://www.econogics.com/
It's your planet.  If you won't look after it, who will?


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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid vehicles

[Donald A. Coccia]

North American International Auto Show.
Most importantly for your post, see the second paragraph above the section 
entitled "Hydrid in Action" and beginning "Meantime..." where there's a 
discussion of a Mercedes-Benz hybrid diesel wagon.

http://autos.msn.com/as/autoshow2004/article.aspx?xml=Hybrids&shw=autoshow2004
Don C.
- Original Message - 
From: "Darryl McMahon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hybrid vehicles


Train engines (diesel locomotives).  Some hybrid buses. Some prototype 
truck
tractors.  The Spincraft workboat (hybrid version).  There was a 
super-efficient
high mileage one-off car done in Europe (either VW or Mercedes, I think). 
PNGV

prototypes (as noted by Keith already).  Couple of U.S. university project
vehicles.  Nothing mainstream yet.  My vehicle remains a work in progress.

"Todd Wootton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> asked:

Is there such a thing as a hybrid diesel vehicle. Everything that I read 
about is of
hybrid with internal cumbustion but we all know that diesel cars are much 
more fuel
efficient. if we were to combine that with the extra fuel savings of a 
diesel
vehicle and we use the biodiesel.-wow Todd Wootton 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home

Office (905)473-5646 Cellular (705)794-1264


--
Darryl McMahon  http://www.econogics.com/
It's your planet.  If you won't look after it, who will?


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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid vehicles

[aleksander . kac]

The hybrid Hummer. All diesel subs starting well before WW2.
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Re: [Biofuel] hybrid vehicles

[Arcologic]

I heard that Mercedes has a hybrid diesel in this winter's auto show.  
(Mentioned on www.tdiclub.com )  Toyota is believed to be working on one.  GM 
had a 
diesel hybrid concept car in 2000 that got 80 mpg.  I think Chrysler has one 
currently at 83 mpg, I think.  My memory is a little unreliable, but you 
certainly get the idea.  They are coming, and we can't be sure how it will all 
shake 
out.  One thing is sure-- cars will get a lot better than what is offered now.

Personal note:  I am currently driving a diesel that gets 65 mpg, not a 
hybrid.  (A modified Beetle.)  See it at www.max-mpg.com  Further, I am 
interested 
in finding support for an engine development project.  The concept is a very 
clean two-stroke diesel that will get about 90 mpg on the highway (with no 
hybrid support) in a Beetle-size car.

One further rumor:  A member of this list (I shouldn't name--it's not me) is 
working on a new kind of low-cost, renewable diesel fuel that should burn much 
cleaner than present diesel fuels.

Ernie Rogers

In a message dated 11/23/2004 6:46:28 AM Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Is there such a thing as a hybrid diesel vehicle. Everything that I read 
about is of hybrid with internal cumbustion but we all know that diesel cars 
are 
much more fuel efficient. if we were to combine that with the extra fuel 
savings of a diesel vehicle and we use the biodiesel.-wow Todd Wootton 
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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Keith Addison]

Hello Ted


I'm interested in organizing a coalition around hybrid
electric/biodiesel vehicles.


Have you visited Darryl McMahon's website, Ecogenics?
http://www.econogics.com/


I read that such products were
manufactured early in the hybrid process, but later scrapped.


Do you mean PNGV? The Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles 
project started by Al Gore. In collaboration with government the Big 
Three in Detroit each developed diesel-electric hybrids with fuel 
consumption of about 80mpg and were getting costs down to near 
marketability when the project was scrapped by the Bush 
administration in favour of the "Freedom Car". The technology, paid 
for with taxpayers' dollars, got stashed away in the vaults where 
they keep useful technology that might not be in their interests. 
Sorry to be cynical about it, but check these out:


Driving In Circles
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg10943.html

Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg20667.html

See also the Mokhiber-Weissman review of Jack Doyle's book, "Taken 
for a Ride: Detroit's Big Three and the Politics of Pollution":

http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2000/31.html

See PNGV about halfway down:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html
Do diesels have a future?

There's this, from a post in one of those threads:


During the Clinton Administration, all the major U.S.
auto manufacturers developed diesel-electric hybrid
concept vehicles, in line with the "Partnership for a
New Generation of Vehicle."  Some were more realistic
than others, but all had high mileages, and all were
unveiled 1998-2001.  Interesting that as soon as our
current President took office, this initiative left
the headlines.


But there's also this, from Doyle:

Bush's proposal to provide for clean cars -- which is laudable on 
its face -- is but the latest in a long line of Detroit-White House 
"partnerships" dating to the Nixon-era that only provide diversion 
and political cover, not actual clean cars.


During the annual parade of auto shows in 2002, General Motors, a 
company which has lost 25 points of market share since the '50s, 
rolled out a futuristic-looking automotive underbody "skateboard" 
called Autonomy. Someday -- GM didn't say exactly when -- Autonomy 
would be crammed full of hydrogen-powered fuel cells and computers, 
and smog would end. A few days after GM's show, U.S. Energy 
Secretary of Energy, Spencer Abraham, and Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), 
were on hand with GM and DaimlerChrysler to announce the death of 
one federal "supercar" program and the creation of another. Being 
terminated was a Clinton-era program -- a 10-year joint venture with 
Detroit known as the "Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles" 
(PNGV) that was supposed to produce an 80 mpg family car. In its 
place, the Bush administration substituted a program focused not on 
fuel-efficiency but on hydrogen fuel-cell technology, "Freedom Car." 
However, most of these ventures go nowhere, as Clinton's "supercar" 
program shows.


At its September 1993 White House unveiling, Bill Clinton compared 
the PNGV to the Apollo project that put a man on the moon. GM's CEO 
at the time, Jack Smith, said the efficiency gains to come from the 
new venture would amount to "nothing less than a major, even 
radical, breakthrough." A whole new class of car would follow, he 
assured his listeners. Sold to Congress as a way to make the Big 
Three competitive with the Japanese, PNGV became the perfect 
political tool to keep Congress from moving to improve fuel economy, 
to tout as the industry's global warming fighter, and to help 
undermine California's electric vehicle program.


Meanwhile, as Detroit and Washington became comfortable in their 
new, 10-year research venture, the Japanese were making real 
improvements...


-- From: Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers

There's also this:

PNGV funds were available only to American companies. Recipients 
agreed to unveil a concept car by 2000, a preproduction prototype by 
2004 and be in full production by 2010. All three, Ford, GM and 
DaimlerChrysler introduced concept cars in early 2000. And there 
development stopped. Why? Because the American car companies refused 
to commercialize a car they would initially lose money on, even if 
the losses would be temporary.


Daimler/Chrysler, for example, announced in 2000 that it would not 
commercialize its diesel hybrid (ESX3) because it cost $7,500 more 
to make than their comparable gasoline powered car, a Dodge 
Intrepid. As late as April 2002 General Motors' CEO and President G. 
Richard Wagoner Jr. told Business Week, "How will the economics of 
hybrids ever match that of the internal combustion engine? We can't 
afford to subsidize them."


-- From: A Tale of Two Countries, by David Morris
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryI

RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[RobT]

I worked on the Ford P2000 DIATA diesel hybrid for a few years in the late
90's, as a engine control systems engineer.

It was a research vehicle, part of the PNGV initiative.  A pretty cool and
functional hybrid -- a large 4-door car (larger inside than a Taurus) with
reasonable power.  I got around 60-70 mpg in real-world driving, a bit
higher on the EPA test cycles.

The engine and hybrid system were all pretty close to currently
in-production stuff, with the exception of batteries and exhaust
aftertreatment.  The cost of the vehicle, though, was way high, much to high
for a marketable car.

To get the weight down to 2000 lbs curb weight, we had expensive aluminum,
magnesium, and titanium components everywhere.  Titanium lugnuts?  $200
each.  Magnesium wheels?    

I doubt it could have been produced for less than $50,000 US, even given
economies of scale.  Fun stuff to play with, though.

So, I don't think there is a magic vehicle being hidden from us.  I do
agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S.
taxpayer.  IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3
automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'.

-- RobT

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 2:19 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel


Hello Ted

>I'm interested in organizing a coalition around hybrid
>electric/biodiesel vehicles.

Have you visited Darryl McMahon's website, Ecogenics?
http://www.econogics.com/

>I read that such products were
>manufactured early in the hybrid process, but later scrapped.

Do you mean PNGV? The Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles 
project started by Al Gore. In collaboration with government the Big 
Three in Detroit each developed diesel-electric hybrids with fuel 
consumption of about 80mpg and were getting costs down to near 
marketability when the project was scrapped by the Bush 
administration in favour of the "Freedom Car". The technology, paid 
for with taxpayers' dollars, got stashed away in the vaults where 
they keep useful technology that might not be in their interests. 
Sorry to be cynical about it, but check these out:

Driving In Circles
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg10943.html

Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg20667.html

See also the Mokhiber-Weissman review of Jack Doyle's book, "Taken 
for a Ride: Detroit's Big Three and the Politics of Pollution":
http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2000/31.html

See PNGV about halfway down:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html
Do diesels have a future?

There's this, from a post in one of those threads:

>During the Clinton Administration, all the major U.S.
>auto manufacturers developed diesel-electric hybrid
>concept vehicles, in line with the "Partnership for a
>New Generation of Vehicle."  Some were more realistic
>than others, but all had high mileages, and all were
>unveiled 1998-2001.  Interesting that as soon as our
>current President took office, this initiative left
>the headlines.

But there's also this, from Doyle:

>Bush's proposal to provide for clean cars -- which is laudable on 
>its face -- is but the latest in a long line of Detroit-White House 
>"partnerships" dating to the Nixon-era that only provide diversion 
>and political cover, not actual clean cars.
>
>During the annual parade of auto shows in 2002, General Motors, a 
>company which has lost 25 points of market share since the '50s, 
>rolled out a futuristic-looking automotive underbody "skateboard" 
>called Autonomy. Someday -- GM didn't say exactly when -- Autonomy 
>would be crammed full of hydrogen-powered fuel cells and computers, 
>and smog would end. A few days after GM's show, U.S. Energy 
>Secretary of Energy, Spencer Abraham, and Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), 
>were on hand with GM and DaimlerChrysler to announce the death of 
>one federal "supercar" program and the creation of another. Being 
>terminated was a Clinton-era program -- a 10-year joint venture with 
>Detroit known as the "Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles" 
>(PNGV) that was supposed to produce an 80 mpg family car. In its 
>place, the Bush administration substituted a program focused not on 
>fuel-efficiency but on hydrogen fuel-cell technology, "Freedom Car." 
>However, most of these ventures go nowhere, as Clinton's "supercar" 
>program shows.
>
>At its September 1993 White House unveiling, Bill Clinton compared 
>the PNGV to the Apollo project that put a man on the moon. GM

RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Keith Addison]

Hello Rob


I worked on the Ford P2000 DIATA diesel hybrid for a few years in the late
90's, as a engine control systems engineer.

It was a research vehicle, part of the PNGV initiative.  A pretty cool and
functional hybrid -- a large 4-door car (larger inside than a Taurus) with
reasonable power.  I got around 60-70 mpg in real-world driving, a bit
higher on the EPA test cycles.

The engine and hybrid system were all pretty close to currently
in-production stuff, with the exception of batteries and exhaust
aftertreatment.  The cost of the vehicle, though, was way high, much to high
for a marketable car.

To get the weight down to 2000 lbs curb weight, we had expensive aluminum,
magnesium, and titanium components everywhere.  Titanium lugnuts?  $200
each.  Magnesium wheels?  

I doubt it could have been produced for less than $50,000 US, even given
economies of scale.


They were succeeding in bring the prices down to near-marketability 
when the program was axed. I'm not sure about Ford's Prodigy, but the 
Dodge ESX3 PNGV diesel hybrid got down to about $27,500 by early 2000.

http://www.detnews.com/2000/autos/0002/23/02230070.htm

DaimlerChrysler cut the "cost penalty" from $60,000 down to $7,500. 
GM predicted that it would have production prototypes ready in 2004, 
with cars for sale to follow.



Fun stuff to play with, though.


Play? "It is possible to produce a mid-size family sedan that gets 80 
miles per gallon. It won't be cheap," said a Washington Post article 
on PNGV in 2001. What does cheap mean? As cheap as oil imports to the 
US are today, very much of which is wasted? Fuel economy hasn't 
improved in 20 years or more in the US, what's the cost of that 
exactly? An impossible dream? PNGV shows it's not impossible at all, 
even in the US.



So, I don't think there is a magic vehicle being hidden from us.


Not magic, but it's certainly been buried and it shouldn't have been. 
Did you read these?



Driving In Circles
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg10943.html

Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg20667.html

See also the Mokhiber-Weissman review of Jack Doyle's book, "Taken
for a Ride: Detroit's Big Three and the Politics of Pollution":
http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2000/31.html


Where's the technology now? It was intended to percolate into the 
general technology base in the US, they said it was doing exactly 
that, and instead it vanished. "All told, of the 129 technology 
achievements and innovations arising from the Precept program, 47 of 
them are global industry firsts and about 75 percent have some sort 
of potential core product application. Nearly 40 of those 
achievements and innovations are in the propulsion system alone." 
Shelved. And you guys buy Insights and Prius's instead like a bunch 
of mugs.


A Tale of Two Countries, by David Morris
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17333

From one PNGV program report in 2000:

Daimler Chrysler's Jim Holden said he drove to the press conference 
in a new Dodge Durango SUV with a hybrid gas electric power train 
that is 20 percent more fuel efficient than the conventional 
Durango. GM sells about 20,000 Durangos a year, Holden said, and 
"with a little bit of help on the tax side," the hybrid Durango 
could be "on the road in the very near term."  The Big Three want 
Congress to pass legislation supported by the White House that would 
give a tax credit of up to $4,000 to consumers who buy these new, 
fuel efficient vehicles.


But the tax credits go to SUVs. "Unfortunately, Congress has refused 
to act on our package of consumer tax credits -- including credits of 
up to $4,000 for consumers to purchase the next generation of fuel 
efficient vehicles." - GM, 10/20/2000



I do
agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S.
taxpayer.


As expensive as today's oil consumption is proving to be, in so many 
different ways? And not just for the US taxpayer either.



IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3
automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'.


More than that I think.

Funny how there's less and less to be seen about these vehicles and 
the PNGV program. I keep having to change/kill the links on our 
section on them at Journey to Forever. For instance, a new one, enter 
"pngv" at NREL's search page and you get this message (note the url):


http://search.nrel.gov/go_away.html
This page is intentionally blank.

LOL!

I did the search after finding that NREL's pages on PNGV had vanished.

Best wishes

Keith



-- RobT

-----Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
Sent: Tuesday, June

RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Mel Riser]

Title: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel






solomon technologies has a hybrid Sailboat /diesel/electic system.

the largest shipping motor they have in production is a 12 hp but they have a 20 hp 1000rpm engine in testing right now.

We have been in discussions with them about a hybrid system for a sailboat my brother and I are starting construction on next summer.

however the 20 hp MIGHT be really good for a car as well as it does regenerative chrging when the sailboat is under sail.

http://www.solomontechnologies.com

interesting reading regardless.

mel



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RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[RobT]

I think a lot of 'facts' thrown around about those PNGV hybrids were
actually computer projected performance statistics, not actual measurements.
That was certainly true for Ford and Chrysler at least.  Chrysler was
reporting fuel economy results well before they had any driveable vehicle,
and Ford stuck with their computer-generated 80mpg predictions for maybe a
year after learning that the actual vehicle was ending up around 65-70mpg.

At Ford, some of the hybrid vehicle development systems did percolate from
the PNGV research program to the Ford Escape hybrid production program.
Different priorities and much lower fuel economy there, although it does a
decent job of improving the fuel economy of the base vehicle.

About the marketplace and the technology, though:  Even manufacturers who do
have high fuel economy technology, and have put it into large-scale
production, aren't bringing these vehicles to the US.  The VW Lupo and Smart
cars come to mind first, just because I've seen or read about them recently.

It seems to me that barriers to this technology making it from the research
lab to the showroom (in the US) include:
- lazy manufacturers (already tooled up for high-profit-margin
trucks and SUVs, why change?)
- lazy consumers (everyone else drives a big truck, I think I'll get
me one too)
- legal hurdles (difficult to emissions-certify diesel cars in the
US, and crash-test certify small cars)

I don't mean to support the US manufacturers or market system too much,
though.  I quit working for Ford out of frustration years ago, moved out of
the city, and currently drive a Mexican-made VW TDI diesel that was cheap,
and gets 49-50 mpg(US).

-- Rob


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 12:31 PM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel


Hello Rob

>I worked on the Ford P2000 DIATA diesel hybrid for a few years in the late
>90's, as a engine control systems engineer.
>
>It was a research vehicle, part of the PNGV initiative.  A pretty cool and
>functional hybrid -- a large 4-door car (larger inside than a Taurus) with
>reasonable power.  I got around 60-70 mpg in real-world driving, a bit
>higher on the EPA test cycles.
>
>The engine and hybrid system were all pretty close to currently
>in-production stuff, with the exception of batteries and exhaust
>aftertreatment.  The cost of the vehicle, though, was way high, much to
high
>for a marketable car.
>
>To get the weight down to 2000 lbs curb weight, we had expensive aluminum,
>magnesium, and titanium components everywhere.  Titanium lugnuts?  $200
>each.  Magnesium wheels?  
>
>I doubt it could have been produced for less than $50,000 US, even given
>economies of scale.

They were succeeding in bring the prices down to near-marketability 
when the program was axed. I'm not sure about Ford's Prodigy, but the 
Dodge ESX3 PNGV diesel hybrid got down to about $27,500 by early 2000.
http://www.detnews.com/2000/autos/0002/23/02230070.htm

DaimlerChrysler cut the "cost penalty" from $60,000 down to $7,500. 
GM predicted that it would have production prototypes ready in 2004, 
with cars for sale to follow.

>Fun stuff to play with, though.

Play? "It is possible to produce a mid-size family sedan that gets 80 
miles per gallon. It won't be cheap," said a Washington Post article 
on PNGV in 2001. What does cheap mean? As cheap as oil imports to the 
US are today, very much of which is wasted? Fuel economy hasn't 
improved in 20 years or more in the US, what's the cost of that 
exactly? An impossible dream? PNGV shows it's not impossible at all, 
even in the US.

>So, I don't think there is a magic vehicle being hidden from us.

Not magic, but it's certainly been buried and it shouldn't have been. 
Did you read these?

>Driving In Circles
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg10943.html
>
>Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg20667.html
>
>See also the Mokhiber-Weissman review of Jack Doyle's book, "Taken
>for a Ride: Detroit's Big Three and the Politics of Pollution":
>http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2000/31.html

Where's the technology now? It was intended to percolate into the 
general technology base in the US, they said it was doing exactly 
that, and instead it vanished. "All told, of the 129 technology 
achievements and innovations arising from the Precept program, 47 of 
them are global industry firsts and about 75 percent have some sort 
of potential core product application. Nearly 40 of those 
achievements and innovations are in the propulsion sys

RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Tony DeCarmine]

Greetings, All -

The loss of the PNGV links at NREL is no surprise. The Feds are deleting 
online files by the gross. Anything that makes them out for what they 
are is going, going... Gone.


Keith - If you still have the old links, I suppose I could play with the 
'wayback machine' and see if I can get partial pages. Images are very 
unlikely, but text should be there.


What goes on here (on this list) is critical - There are a painful few 
'real' researchers out there working this problem (U.S. anyway). It is 
up to us...




--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.5/32 - Release Date: 6/27/2005


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RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Keith Addison]

Hello Tony


Greetings, All -

The loss of the PNGV links at NREL is no surprise.


Not really, no.

The Feds are deleting online files by the gross. Anything that makes 
them out for what they are is going, going... Gone.


Keith - If you still have the old links, I suppose I could play with 
the 'wayback machine' and see if I can get partial pages. Images are 
very unlikely, but text should be there.


That's a good idea - I'll dig up some backups and see what I can find. Thanks!

What goes on here (on this list) is critical - There are a painful 
few 'real' researchers out there working this problem (U.S. anyway). 
It is up to us...


Yes... and many others like us. Painfully few as a proportion of the 
whole, it's true, but many in number, and it's growing fast. Look at 
the growth of the blogosphere, for one instance - sure, there's a lot 
of woolly nonsense there, but there's a lot of good solid stuff too, 
that you don't find anywhere else, more and more of it, and it has 
its effect. Maybe the number's more important than the proportion.


Best wishes

Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Paddy O'Reilly]

I do
agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S.
taxpayer.
   



 


I'm sorry, but I have to comment on what's being said here.
Basically, the American tax dollar is begrudgingly given to help with 
cleaning up our environment to the tune of 210 million (ever deflating) 
US dollars yet a blind eye is being cast on the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of 
those same dollars being wasted on the beloved American Defence Budget. 
I heard somewhere that the INCREASE in the American defence budget this 
year exceeds the total defence budgets of the next five largest defence 
budgets of other "superpowers" put together.


And George won't even consider cancelling third nation debt (I suppose 
it doesn't hold any immediate return for him so he doesn't care).


So putting the whole thing into perspective, the payment of 0.175% of 
the American defence budget (which will be spent on developing new and 
improved ways of wiping out the planet in the shortest time possible) on 
helping some other Americans develop ways of reducing our dependence on 
the Earth's natural resources is a waste of money while creating weapons 
of mass destruction isn't.


Hmmm, methinks there's a slight imbalance in priorities here. The term 
"Heck of an expensive program(me)" should be reserved for George Dubya's 
retirement fund (aka defence budget).


As expensive as today's oil consumption is proving to be, in so many 
different ways? And not just for the US taxpayer either.


 


IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3
automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'.
   



I've cut out as much as is reasonable from this email trail to preserve 
bandwidth. Hope it still makes sense.
By the way, I'm using English spelling in this mail not the American 
mutated version.



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RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Mel Riser]

Title: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel





you can always try the wayback internet time machine.
 
I'm always AMAZED at what it remembers.
 
if it was publicly available, and in a search engine, chances are it is in 
the time machine
 
http://www.archive.org/web/web.php

  -Original Message- From: Keith Addison 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed 6/29/2005 3:51 AM 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Cc: Subject: 
  RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
  Hello Tony>Greetings, All ->>The loss 
  of the PNGV links at NREL is no surprise.Not really, 
  no.>The Feds are deleting online files by the gross. Anything that 
  makes>them out for what they are is going, going... 
  Gone.>>Keith - If you still have the old links, I suppose I 
  could play with>the 'wayback machine' and see if I can get partial 
  pages. Images are>very unlikely, but text should be 
  there.That's a good idea - I'll dig up some backups and see what I can 
  find. Thanks!>What goes on here (on this list) is critical - There 
  are a painful>few 'real' researchers out there working this problem 
  (U.S. anyway).>It is up to us...Yes... and many others like us. 
  Painfully few as a proportion of thewhole, it's true, but many in number, 
  and it's growing fast. Look atthe growth of the blogosphere, for one 
  instance - sure, there's a lotof woolly nonsense there, but there's a lot 
  of good solid stuff too,that you don't find anywhere else, more and more 
  of it, and it hasits effect. Maybe the number's more important than the 
  proportion.Best 
  wishesKeith___Biofuel 
  mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel 
  at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch 
  the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


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RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Bill Vaughn]

Mean while the Japanese figured out how to make hybrids at a prices to sell 
to the American public. Seems there is a line waiting for the hybrids now 
because of the souring gas prices. Again the big three are slow to answer to 
the American public and their sinking sales prove once again they don't have 
a clue.


Bill


From: "RobT" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: 
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:47:50 -0400

I worked on the Ford P2000 DIATA diesel hybrid for a few years in the late
90's, as a engine control systems engineer.

It was a research vehicle, part of the PNGV initiative.  A pretty cool and
functional hybrid -- a large 4-door car (larger inside than a Taurus) with
reasonable power.  I got around 60-70 mpg in real-world driving, a bit
higher on the EPA test cycles.

The engine and hybrid system were all pretty close to currently
in-production stuff, with the exception of batteries and exhaust
aftertreatment.  The cost of the vehicle, though, was way high, much to 
high

for a marketable car.

To get the weight down to 2000 lbs curb weight, we had expensive aluminum,
magnesium, and titanium components everywhere.  Titanium lugnuts?  $200
each.  Magnesium wheels?  

I doubt it could have been produced for less than $50,000 US, even given
economies of scale.  Fun stuff to play with, though.

So, I don't think there is a magic vehicle being hidden from us.  I do
agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S.
taxpayer.  IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3
automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'.

-- RobT




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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Paddy O'Reilly]

I'm not sure what the average price of "gas" (aka petrol) is in the US, 
in Ireland it has just passed the Euro mark per litre - that's USD5.44 a 
gallon and in England its about 90p per litre - that's USD8.17 a gallon.


Perhaps this kind of price in the US will be enough to get people's 
attention (George Bush and his cohorts would be delighted at this price).


Unfortunately nothing significant is still being done in Europe about 
changing to biofuels.


Bill Vaughn wrote:



Mean while the Japanese figured out how to make hybrids at a prices to 
sell to the American public. Seems there is a line waiting for the 
hybrids now because of the souring gas prices. Again the big three are 
slow to answer to the American public and their sinking sales prove 
once again they don't have a clue.


Bill 




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RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

Yes but there is the issue of Battery life and cost. 
The batteries are warranted for 8-10 year or 80K/100K miles. 
Prorated - Who knows. 
There cost is in the $7000 bracket. 

So lets see, My Toyota Camry 1985 has 321K miles no rebuilds. 
I will admit it is near death. 
It get 27 odd MPG. 31 on the freeway.
I will make the assumption that maintained cost are about equal for both
cars.  
Assume the same time period and fuel prices. 

So my cost of ownership is (Toyota Camry)
Fuel consumed = 321,000/27 = 11888 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50 
Total fuel cost = $17,833 
Cost per/year = $17,833/20years = $891 fuel costs. 
Battery cost $0
total  = $891/year   

So my cost of ownership is (VW Jetta)
Fuel consumed = 321,000/47 = 6829 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50 
Total fuel cost = $10,244 
Cost per/year = $10,244/20years = $512 fuel costs. 
Battery cost $0
total  = $512/year   

As a Honda with a 80K/$7000 battery 2005 Honda Accord
mileage 30/37 = avg around 35 mpg

Fuel consumed = 321,000/35 = 9171 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50 
Total fuel cost = $13,757   

Total batteries used @ 80k mile/bat  = 321/80 = 4.012 = 4 
4 x 7000 = $28,000

Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $687  fuel costs. 
Cost per/year = $28,000/20years = $1400 Battery costs.  
total  = $2100/year  @ 80K battery 

Assume a 150K battery = 2 changes = $14,000
Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $687  fuel costs. 
Cost per/year = $14,000/20years = $700 Battery costs.   
total  = $1387/year  @ 80K battery 

As a Honda with a 100K/$7000 battery Insight
mileage 60/66 = avg around 63 mpg

Fuel consumed = 321,000/35 = 5095 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50 
Total fuel cost = $7,642

Total batteries used @ 100k mile/bat  = 321/100 = 3.21 = 3 
3 x 7000 = $21,000

Cost per/year = $7,642/20years  = $328  fuel costs. 
Cost per/year = $21,000/20years = $1050 Battery costs.  
total  = $1378/year  @ 100K battery 

Assume a 150K battery = 2 changes = $14,000
Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $328  fuel costs. 
Cost per/year = $14,000/20years = $700 Battery costs.   
total  = $1028/year  @ 150K battery 


Conclusion:
Toyota Camry 27mph  $891/year
Honda Accord$2100/year  @ 80K battery   135%
higher  
Honda Accord$1387/year  @ 150K battery   56%
higher
Honda Insight   $1387/year  @ 100K battery   56%
higher  
Honda Insight   $1024/year  @ 150K battery   14%
higher  

VW Jetta$512/Year   
Honda Accord$2100/year  @ 80K battery   310%
higher  
Honda Accord$1387/year  @ 150K battery  170%
higher
Honda Insight   $1387/year  @ 100K battery  170%
higher  
Honda Insight   $1024/year  @ 150K battery  100%
higher  

So I see not cost benefit to Hybrids, my poor Camry is less
expensive. 

And what about life expectancy. My last Diesel Rabbit was
retired at 450,000 miles. No rebuilds. 

When gas get to $4+ a gallon then there could be a net advantage
to the hybrids, if the engine systems can last 20+ years. 
But still will not compeate with the diesels.   

Sorry the calculations do not include CO2 carbon credits.

Just random thoughts. 
M 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Vaughn
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 8:25 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel


Mean while the Japanese figured out how to make hybrids at a prices to
sell 
to the American public. Seems there is a line waiting for the hybrids
now 
because of the souring gas prices. Again the big three are slow to
answer to 
the American public and their sinking sales prove once again they don't
have 
a clue.

Bill

>From: "RobT" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: 
>Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
>Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:47:50 -0400
>
>I worked on the Ford P2000 DIATA diesel hybrid for a few years in the 
>late 90's, as a engine control systems engineer.
>
>It was a research vehicle, part of the PNGV initiative.  A pretty cool 
>and functional hybrid -- a large 4-door car (larger inside than a 
>Taurus) with reasonable power.  I got around 60-70 mpg in real-world 
>driving, a bit higher on the EPA test cycles.
>
>The engine and hybrid system were all pretty close to currently 
>in-production stuff, with the exception of batteries and exhaust 
>aftertr

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Frantz DESPREZ]

Paddy O'Reilly a écrit :

I'm not sure what the average price of "gas" (aka petrol) is in the 
US, in Ireland it has just passed the Euro mark per litre - that's 
USD5.44 a gallon and in England its about 90p per litre - that's 
USD8.17 a gallon.


Perhaps this kind of price in the US will be enough to get people's 
attention (George Bush and his cohorts would be delighted at this price).


Unfortunately nothing significant is still being done in Europe about 
changing to biofuels.



Hi,

In France, the average price is around 1,11 Euro per liter of gazoline 
(unleaded 95, it's more for 98) and 1 Euro for "gazole"(diesel), due to 
the huge (about 80% of price) taxes.
Compared to sunflower edible oil  first price at 1,10 Euro / liter or 
PLG at 0,66.
No legal way for commercial biofuels out of the industrial solution 
chosen by french gov. People begins to get out of invidualism and use 
more public transportations or "co-voiturage" (don't know the right 
translation in English : co-conveyance or car sharing ?).
And I do agree with last words of Paddy, and the political crisis in EU 
won't help it, especially with the british presidence for the next 6 
month according to recent news explaining that the whole agricultural 
areas of UK could  not  be enough to reach  EU  biofuels goals, and how 
T. Blair is opposed to EU continental countries on agricultural subsidies.


What's about running cars with "turf" in Irland ? ;-)

frantz
(3 trips in Eire since 1986)


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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Paddy O'Reilly]

Believe me, with the amount of smoke coming from some of the exhausts 
its as if the vehicles were running on turf. However that route (pardon 
the pun) is being stopped since the government environment body has put 
a stop to the erosion of the countryside by turf-cutting.


Unfortunately Ireland is becoming more and more a car-oriented country 
and cyclists have to take to the pavement/footpath to feel safe. This is 
in turn desensitising car drivers to the presence of other road users, 
teaching cyclists to ignore correct rules of the road and cause even 
more use of cars as parents consider it safer to drive their kids the 
whole half mile to school rather than have them walk.


Frantz DESPREZ wrote:


Paddy O'Reilly a écrit :

I'm not sure what the average price of "gas" (aka petrol) is in the 
US, in Ireland it has just passed the Euro mark per litre - that's 
USD5.44 a gallon and in England its about 90p per litre - that's 
USD8.17 a gallon.


Perhaps this kind of price in the US will be enough to get people's 
attention (George Bush and his cohorts would be delighted at this 
price).


Unfortunately nothing significant is still being done in Europe about 
changing to biofuels.



Hi,

In France, the average price is around 1,11 Euro per liter of gazoline 
(unleaded 95, it's more for 98) and 1 Euro for "gazole"(diesel), due 
to the huge (about 80% of price) taxes.
Compared to sunflower edible oil  first price at 1,10 Euro / liter or 
PLG at 0,66.
No legal way for commercial biofuels out of the industrial solution 
chosen by french gov. People begins to get out of invidualism and use 
more public transportations or "co-voiturage" (don't know the right 
translation in English : co-conveyance or car sharing ?).
And I do agree with last words of Paddy, and the political crisis in 
EU won't help it, especially with the british presidence for the next 
6 month according to recent news explaining that the whole 
agricultural areas of UK could  not  be enough to reach  EU  biofuels 
goals, and how T. Blair is opposed to EU continental countries on 
agricultural subsidies.


What's about running cars with "turf" in Irland ? ;-)

frantz
(3 trips in Eire since 1986)


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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House

[Zeke Yewdall]

I have a book published in 1983 called  "Sun/earth buffering and
superinsulation" by Don Booth.  It talks all about envelope houses, which
seem to be much the same as the Enertia concept -- have a double envelope
with thermal mass in the inner space and solar heated air circulating around
between them.

Z

On 5/28/07, Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


http://enertia.com/Science/HowItWorks/tabid/68/Default.aspx


Swiped from Digg

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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House

[Dawie Coetzee]

I've used the cooling component's operating principle in roofs, with mixed 
success because builders don't take it seriously and leave out the exhaust 
vents *sigh...* But even an unexhausted but accidentally-leaky convection space 
helps a lot with cooling.-D


- Original Message 
From: Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2007 4:25:18 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House


http://enertia.com/Science/HowItWorks/tabid/68/Default.aspx


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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House

[Fritz Friesinger]

Hi Mike & all,
i had a quick look at the Website of enertia,there are some very good aspects 
in their aproach,but i think this is a kind of overkill!
We talking here of basically two Housshells wich are probably very costly and 
not ment for everybodys means!
A significant aspect of full Woodhouses is not even mentionned in this website<
the ability of wood to even out differences of  humidity and therefore act as a 
catalizer.
Everone owns a Loghome would be able to tell that the Klimate in a Loghome is 
much more natural and better than in conventional built studdwallstructure with 
all kind of windbarriers and vaporbarriers!
The only disadventage,Loghomes are very labourintensive and therefore expensive.
I am working since a while on a constructionmethod with double Woodwalls 
insulated with natural fiber insulation,not using vaporbarriers at all,so the 
whole wall is considered as a full Logwall.
This method is costefficient, easy to assemble for homebuyers and 
ecological,since the protection of the wood is mainly to constructiv means!
My Modelhome should be up by the end of this summer!
Fritz 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Mike Weaver 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 10:25 AM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House


  http://enertia.com/Science/HowItWorks/tabid/68/Default.aspx


  Swiped from Digg

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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House

[Kirk McLoren]

sheetrock does absorb water as does furniture etc. I know because when I lived 
in the Coachella valley (Indio - Palm Springs) I used evaporative cooling until 
humid air moved north from the gulf. For the next couple of days the ac 
condensate line ran water as the house dried out and the ac didnt pull down 
fast. Then once dried ran normally.
   
  Kirk

Fritz Friesinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Hi Mike & all,
  i had a quick look at the Website of enertia,there are some very good aspects 
in their aproach,but i think this is a kind of overkill!
  We talking here of basically two Housshells wich are probably very costly and 
not ment for everybodys means!
  A significant aspect of full Woodhouses is not even mentionned in this 
website<
  the ability of wood to even out differences of  humidity and therefore act as 
a catalizer.
  Everone owns a Loghome would be able to tell that the Klimate in a Loghome is 
much more natural and better than in conventional built studdwallstructure with 
all kind of windbarriers and vaporbarriers!
  The only disadventage,Loghomes are very labourintensive and therefore 
expensive.
  I am working since a while on a constructionmethod with double Woodwalls 
insulated with natural fiber insulation,not using vaporbarriers at all,so the 
whole wall is considered as a full Logwall.
  This method is costefficient, easy to assemble for homebuyers and 
ecological,since the protection of the wood is mainly to constructiv means!
  My Modelhome should be up by the end of this summer!
  Fritz 
- Original Message - 
  From: Mike Weaver 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 10:25 AM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House
  

http://enertia.com/Science/HowItWorks/tabid/68/Default.aspx


Swiped from Digg

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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House

[Fritz Friesinger]

Hi Kirk,
sheetrock is known to make Livingaereas very dry as its absorbs lots of 
humidity from the air with the disadventage of creating mildue!
Furniture absorb very little humidity in compare.
Evaporativ cooling does not harm furnitures but is not suitible for 
drywallconstruction

Fritz
  - Original Message - 
  From: Kirk McLoren 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 10:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House


  sheetrock does absorb water as does furniture etc. I know because when I 
lived in the Coachella valley (Indio - Palm Springs) I used evaporative cooling 
until humid air moved north from the gulf. For the next couple of days the ac 
condensate line ran water as the house dried out and the ac didnt pull down 
fast. Then once dried ran normally.

  Kirk

  Fritz Friesinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Mike & all,
i had a quick look at the Website of enertia,there are some very good 
aspects in their aproach,but i think this is a kind of overkill!
We talking here of basically two Housshells wich are probably very costly 
and not ment for everybodys means!
A significant aspect of full Woodhouses is not even mentionned in this 
website<
the ability of wood to even out differences of  humidity and therefore act 
as a catalizer.
Everone owns a Loghome would be able to tell that the Klimate in a Loghome 
is much more natural and better than in conventional built studdwallstructure 
with all kind of windbarriers and vaporbarriers!
The only disadventage,Loghomes are very labourintensive and therefore 
expensive.
I am working since a while on a constructionmethod with double Woodwalls 
insulated with natural fiber insulation,not using vaporbarriers at all,so the 
whole wall is considered as a full Logwall.
This method is costefficient, easy to assemble for homebuyers and 
ecological,since the protection of the wood is mainly to constructiv means!
My Modelhome should be up by the end of this summer!
Fritz 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Mike Weaver 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 10:25 AM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House


  http://enertia.com/Science/HowItWorks/tabid/68/Default.aspx


  Swiped from Digg

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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House

[Kirk McLoren]

Sheetrock is as American as Chevrolet. Easily 95% of the houses around here are 
sheetrocked. I only lived in one house with mildew and that was a rental in 
California.
  It actually had standing water underneath it when it rained.
  Had a moron for a landlord.
   
  Kirk

Fritz Friesinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Hi Kirk,
  sheetrock is known to make Livingaereas very dry as its absorbs lots of 
humidity from the air with the disadventage of creating mildue!
  Furniture absorb very little humidity in compare.
  Evaporativ cooling does not harm furnitures but is not suitible for 
drywallconstruction
   
  Fritz
- Original Message - 
  From: Kirk McLoren 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 10:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House
  

  sheetrock does absorb water as does furniture etc. I know because when I 
lived in the Coachella valley (Indio - Palm Springs) I used evaporative cooling 
until humid air moved north from the gulf. For the next couple of days the ac 
condensate line ran water as the house dried out and the ac didnt pull down 
fast. Then once dried ran normally.
   
  Kirk

Fritz Friesinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Hi Mike & all,
  i had a quick look at the Website of enertia,there are some very good aspects 
in their aproach,but i think this is a kind of overkill!
  We talking here of basically two Housshells wich are probably very costly and 
not ment for everybodys means!
  A significant aspect of full Woodhouses is not even mentionned in this 
website<
  the ability of wood to even out differences of  humidity and therefore act as 
a catalizer.
  Everone owns a Loghome would be able to tell that the Klimate in a Loghome is 
much more natural and better than in conventional built studdwallstructure with 
all kind of windbarriers and vaporbarriers!
  The only disadventage,Loghomes are very labourintensive and therefore 
expensive.
  I am working since a while on a constructionmethod with double Woodwalls 
insulated with natural fiber insulation,not using vaporbarriers at all,so the 
whole wall is considered as a full Logwall.
  This method is costefficient, easy to assemble for homebuyers and 
ecological,since the protection of the wood is mainly to constructiv means!
  My Modelhome should be up by the end of this summer!
  Fritz 
- Original Message - 
  From: Mike Weaver 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 10:25 AM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House
  

http://enertia.com/Science/HowItWorks/tabid/68/Default.aspx


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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House

[Dawie Coetzee]

A bit of overkill indeed, but it did get me thinking if the principle may be 
used more simply, e.g. with ducting instead of a complete annular space? Also, 
it would be better if solar penetration were not required at the bottom of the 
house, especially in winter when the angle of attack is low and the lower 
floors are likely to be shaded by other buildings. This makes it unsuitable for 
urban environments, which ought to encourage walking and discourage driving and 
therefore need to minimize travel distances and maintain pedestrian 
stimulation. I wonder if one can make it work using roof exposure only.

It also got me to thinking about another approach which dispenses with 
convection but uses the greenhouse principle, and was not uncommon during the 
Middle Ages. In another sense it has come to be known as "micro-architecture", 
the term being used for anything from choirs and screens and reliquaries in 
cathedrals in the form of miniature buildings, to the medieval cupboard-bed. 
The idea in the present sense is that of a room within a room: a piece of 
furniture that is well sunned through the windows during a winter day, which is 
snug and enclosable, well insulated with rugs, and small enough to capitalize 
on body heat, so that it remains warm while the annular space cools down 
towards morning. In summer the rugs may be removed and the sides opened and the 
cupboard-bedroom becomes part of the now-well-ventilated outer room.

It does rather appropriately add another meaning to the word "solar" in the 
sense of a medieval upper chamber where one might expect to find a 
cupboard-bed, even though the term is derived from the Old French for "floor", 
"beam", "floor joist", and hence "upstairs".

-Dawie


- Original Message 
From: Fritz Friesinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2007 5:31:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House


Hi Mike & all,
i had a quick look at the Website of enertia,there are some very good aspects 
in their aproach,but i think this is a kind of overkill!
We talking here of basically two Housshells wich are probably very costly and 
not ment for everybodys means!
A significant aspect of full Woodhouses is not even mentionned in this website<
the ability of wood to even out differences of  humidity and therefore act as a 
catalizer.
Everone owns a Loghome would be able to tell that the Klimate in a Loghome is 
much more natural and better than in conventional built studdwallstructure with 
all kind of windbarriers and vaporbarriers!
The only disadventage,Loghomes are very labourintensive and therefore expensive.
I am working since a while on a constructionmethod with double Woodwalls 
insulated with natural fiber insulation,not using vaporbarriers at all,so the 
whole wall is considered as a full Logwall.
This method is costefficient, easy to assemble for homebuyers and 
ecological,since the protection of the wood is mainly to constructiv means!
My Modelhome should be up by the end of this summer!
Fritz 
- Original Message - 
From: Mike Weaver 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 10:25 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House


http://enertia.com/Science/HowItWorks/tabid/68/Default.aspx


Swiped from Digg

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Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Electric Diesels?

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

>But what we keep asking is why nobody's married diesel hybrids with 
>biodiesel. Well, somebody has. Have a look at this:
>
>http://evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=312
>It's An ENIGMA
>
>This has all been previously covered here, by the way.
>
>Best wishes
>
>Keith

Followup:

A good bookmark for the L3 is here:
http://www.engineering.sdsu.edu/~hev/text.html
but they don't really seem to update it too much.  

The diesel engine in the L3 is a LUPO engine.  They imported the
entire car from Europe just so they could take the engine out and use
it in the L3.

Last I checked the L3 had dropped out of the Tour Del Sol.  Haven't
asked them why, but these efforts take funding and they're on a very
strict budget.  It is also possible that at times they run on regular
diesel as well as biofuel, but I think they prefer biofuel because it
may be easier on the mechanicals than the nasty diesel sold here.  The
two brief rides I've had in the car, the engine was not working, the
rides were done entirely on electrical energy.  Given the
power-to-weight ratio, it was just about the fastest car I've been in,
including one or two Porsches.  Crucial to the performance was the AC
Propulsion 150 kw (200 hp) motor.  Also, the transmission is largely
of their own design, and the computer controls over a transmission are
important in a hybrid, because the car needs to make more complex
decisions than a normal car must, in trying to guage the "mix" of the
two different power sources.

Since this AC motor can be run to generate electricity from the
engine, and theoretically the electricity can be shunted to a socket
rather than used to drive the wheels, it can help convert the 60 hp VW
engine to a generator for the home rather than just using it for
propulsion.  So, theoretically, use of such a motor can help folks
make electricity from biofuels, if all the pieces are in place.

Much of this is assumed rather than verified.  For example, their
mileage claims are based partly on assumptions based on LUPO mileage,
because it is hard to get mileage data from the vehicle when it is not
certified for road use.  Since the L3 is very lightweight, it is not
hard to imagine it getting very high mileage, but again, lack of
funding and resources has contributed to delays in getting really hard
numbers.

They did have mileage data for me based on the electrical part of the
car when I asked, but it was very preliminary stuff.

MM

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Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle

[Keith Addison]

>http://www.ecycle.com/powersports/hybrid.htm

We've had that thing reffed from our website for more than a year, 
and nothing seems to happen with it, still just the same, same old 
pictures, still not in production. "eCycle plans to introduce the 
hybrid motorcycle to beta testers in 2002." Tell you a secret - it's 
been 2002 for awhile now. Is it just one of these schemes where it's 
all just around the corner, just needs another few million or so?

Lotsa diesel bikes here, by the way:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bikes.html

The new military Kawasaki for NATO and the US is the most interesting one, IMO.

Best

Keith


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RE: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle

[Sean Cook]

Gee I just want to buy one.,.,.,.,
so much for U.S. production.


-Original Message-
From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 10:46 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle


>http://www.ecycle.com/powersports/hybrid.htm

We've had that thing reffed from our website for more than a year,
and nothing seems to happen with it, still just the same, same old
pictures, still not in production. "eCycle plans to introduce the
hybrid motorcycle to beta testers in 2002." Tell you a secret - it's
been 2002 for awhile now. Is it just one of these schemes where it's
all just around the corner, just needs another few million or so?

Lotsa diesel bikes here, by the way:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bikes.html

The new military Kawasaki for NATO and the US is the most interesting one,
IMO.

Best

Keith



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RE: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle

[Mccall Tom WP US]

I just purchased a gasoline powered 2 cycle engine
weedeater.

I can remember some discussions concerning the use
of Bio diesel instead of Dino oil to provide lubrication
for the 2 cycle engine.   

How much Bio diesel do you add?

I know that the ratio for Dino Oil is 32 parts gasoline
and 1 part Dino oil (4 oz oil per gallon of gas).

Also did someone use Ethanol and Bio diesel to run a 
2 cylce engine on a bike?

T

-Original Message-
From: Sean Cook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 5:19 AM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle


Gee I just want to buy one.,.,.,.,
so much for U.S. production.


-Original Message-
From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 10:46 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle


>http://www.ecycle.com/powersports/hybrid.htm

We've had that thing reffed from our website for more than a year,
and nothing seems to happen with it, still just the same, same old
pictures, still not in production. "eCycle plans to introduce the
hybrid motorcycle to beta testers in 2002." Tell you a secret - it's
been 2002 for awhile now. Is it just one of these schemes where it's
all just around the corner, just needs another few million or so?

Lotsa diesel bikes here, by the way:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bikes.html

The new military Kawasaki for NATO and the US is the most interesting one,
IMO.

Best

Keith



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RE: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle

[Keith Addison]

>I just purchased a gasoline powered 2 cycle engine
>weedeater.
>
>I can remember some discussions concerning the use
>of Bio diesel instead of Dino oil to provide lubrication
>for the 2 cycle engine.
>
>How much Bio diesel do you add?
>
>I know that the ratio for Dino Oil is 32 parts gasoline
>and 1 part Dino oil (4 oz oil per gallon of gas).
>
>Also did someone use Ethanol and Bio diesel to run a
>2 cylce engine on a bike?
>
>T

Hello Tom

There's been sporadic discussion on biod as 2-cycle oil, but we've 
never had really definitive results - some non-definitive results 
below. If you try it, please let us know how you fare.

I believe the ethanol was used as a blend rather than a straight fuel 
- 10% ethanol with a 20:1 overall biod mix for the lube? Something 
like that.

Regards

Keith


Martin R. used biodiesel as two-stroke oil in his chain saw, at a mix 
of 20 to 1 with gasoline. "It works fine," he says. "After using the 
saw for 2.5 hours in one go on dead Australian hardwood with no 
hiccups I was very impressed to say the least."


> > In all my 2 Stroke engines , I use 20:1 Mix , better to blow some smoke
> > then one at all . no smoke make's your saw run leaner and hotter and
> > run the risk sizing your saw greater more oil will make your 2 stroke
> engine
> > last longer for spark plugs are cheaper then an engine rebuild and the
> > saw I use is a Dolmar chain saw
> > so I will use BD from now on  at 20:1 Mix


  Well, you'd think that at 20:1, just about anything would work,
considering that most 2-strokes nowadays use 50:1 and even 100:1 mixes.
I'd be hesitant, however, to use it in my expensive Stihl chainsaw, but
if someone had an older 2-stroke lawnmower that they didn't care about,
it would be interesting to try a 100:1 mix of straight BD and gas and
just let it run continuously for 5 gallons worth or so.


   Old two-stroke engines like yours usually have bronze wrist pin bearings
and thus require a richer oil mixture to adequately lube that bushing.
Incidentally in a two stroke you will often find the wrist pin bearing fails
first from poor lubrication (It is just much harder to get the oil into it!)
  I would recommend at least to stick with the 20-1 or even 15-1 seeing as
biodiesel is a "thinner" oil than normal two-stroke oil. I have no idea what
effect bio-diesel would have on the octane of gasoline but it probably isn't
so important on old engines because they usually have a very low c/r anyway


My favourite
2-stroke oil is Yamalube R racing oil at 40-1 mix and it, from the bottle is
almost as thin as biodiesel! It could be biodiesel is the lube we've been
looking for all these years.


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RE: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle

[Hall, Edward C.]

Has anyone heard anything more about the diesel 650 enduro that Kawasaki was
developing for the military? I'm mostly interested in whether it'll be
offered to the public?

Ed
-


Lotsa diesel bikes here, by the way:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bikes.html

The new military Kawasaki for NATO and the US is the most interesting one,
IMO.

Best

Keith

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Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle

[biofueledenergy]

I stay in touch with the manufacturer and yes there are plans to offer a 
model to the public. I will email the list and yourself with an update soon.

In a message dated 10/7/2002 12:49:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


> 
> Has anyone heard anything more about the diesel 650 enduro that Kawasaki 
> was
> developing for the military? I'm mostly interested in whether it'll be
> offered to the public?
> 
> Ed
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle

[Keith Addison]

biofueledenergy wrote:

>I stay in touch with the manufacturer and yes there are plans to offer a
>model to the public. I will email the list and yourself with an update soon.

Good news! Please do keep us informed.

Best wishes

Keith


>In a message dated 10/7/2002 12:49:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>
> >
> > Has anyone heard anything more about the diesel 650 enduro that Kawasaki
> > was
> > developing for the military? I'm mostly interested in whether it'll be
> > offered to the public?
> >
> > Ed


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Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle

[Steve Spence]

I did finally get to see a British Enfield diesel motorbike. Also the
Polaris diesel 4x4 and a Kawasaki diesel mule.


Steve Spence
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle


> biofueledenergy wrote:
>
> >I stay in touch with the manufacturer and yes there are plans to offer a
> >model to the public. I will email the list and yourself with an update
soon.
>
> Good news! Please do keep us informed.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Keith
>
>
> >In a message dated 10/7/2002 12:49:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Has anyone heard anything more about the diesel 650 enduro that
Kawasaki
> > > was
> > > developing for the military? I'm mostly interested in whether it'll be
> > > offered to the public?
> > >
> > > Ed
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
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>
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Electric Vehicles

[Keith Addison]

Hi Derek, how goes?

Thanks for the links.

>I've been looking about the Internet at the new HEVs and have come across
>these sites, which I don't recall being mentioned recently on this list. I
>felt they make an interesting read.
>
>http://www.microturbine.com/caseStudies/hevCase1.asp
>
>Use of a microturbine for buses in an HEV application. Burning either diesel
>or CNG. There are a lot of applications mentioned for these turbines with
>mention of advantages over ICEs relative to noise, exhaust polution,
>maintenance, etc.
>
>http://www.oshkoshtruck.com/defense/technology%7Eoverview.cfm
>
>Here is a heavy truck application of an HEV system. What interested me about
>this was the use of 'ultracapacitors' instead of batteries for energy
>storage. There has been discussion in the past on this list of the problems
>associated with batteries and their ultimate disposal. This would appear to
>obviate much or all of this problem.

Kirk sent me this a couple of days ago:

> I check in on them from time to time to see if they are marketing yet.
>Could revolutionize electric vehicles.
>
>Kirk
>
> http://www.skeleton-technologies.com/supcap6.htm

It's been discussed before, here:
http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=19729&list=biofuel&related=1

Best wishes

Keith


>Regards,
>
>Derek


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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel / turf

[Newdlhead]

In a message dated 7/1/05 9:13:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

<< hello paddy and frantz.
 
 i didn't understand this exchange.  what's this about turf?  wold appreciate 
 the education.
 
 -chris
 
 
 In a message dated 6/30/05 6:58:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 << Believe me, with the amount of smoke coming from some of the exhausts 
 
 its as if the vehicles were running on turf. However that route (pardon 
 
 the pun) is being stopped since the government environment body has put 
 
 a stop to the erosion of the countryside by turf-cutting. >>
  >>

just a guess, peat moss?
greg

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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel / turf

[Paddy O'Reilly]

Sorry - idle banter and off-topic rant about the state of diesel engines 
in Ireland.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 7/1/05 9:13:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:


<< hello paddy and frantz.

i didn't understand this exchange.  what's this about turf?  wold appreciate 
the education.


-chris


In a message dated 6/30/05 6:58:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Believe me, with the amount of smoke coming from some of the exhausts 

its as if the vehicles were running on turf. However that route (pardon 

the pun) is being stopped since the government environment body has put 


a stop to the erosion of the countryside by turf-cutting. >>
 >>

just a guess, peat moss?
greg

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Fwd: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Electric Diesels?

[doosjp]

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello Chris

>   I've been looking at more efficient/clean auto options and had
>been talking to a friend about looking at Hybrid Electric Vehicles when he
>suggested to me I look into biodiesel.  It struck me that if anyone made a
>HEV diesel, that would be the best of both.
>
>   So a little searching turned up the DaimlerChrysler/Dodge ESX3, a
>concept Diesel HEV that supposedly got 80mpg.  It appears to have been
>part of an initiative called PNGV (Partnership for a New Generation of
>Vehicles).  Unfortunately, I can't find anything recent on the ESX3, and
>some pages seem to suggest that the PNGV project was scrapped.
>
>   I was hoping someone might know something about whether the ESX3
>is still being developed, or if any other manufacturers are trying HEV
>diesels?
>
>   Thanks,
>   Chris


All three PNGV cars were diesels. There are some details about the
PNGV program and the ESX3 here:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html
Do diesels have a future?

But PNGV was scrapped a few months back.

http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=10937&list=BIOFUEL
Info-Archive at NNYTech

http://washingtonpost.com:80/wp-dyn/articles/A25087-2001Aug17.html
Super-High-Mileage Car Just a Concept, For Now

http://detnews.com:80/2001/autos/0108/16/c01-268341.htm
80-mpg deadline won't be met

I've asked in previous messages what will now happen to this
technology, paid for largely with taxpayers' money - will it just be
shelved? It seems so.

It's Japan that's moving ahead with the hybrids now:
http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/16184/story.htm
Hybrid cars try merging into the mainstream

These are mostly not diesels, are at least the cars aren't, but there
is a lot of development going on here (I'm in Japan) with HEV diesels
for commercial vehicles.

There's certainly a market for hybrids:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0203060113mar06.story?coll=
chi%2Dbusiness%2Dhed
Chicago Tribune |
60% of car buyers would purchase hybrid

http://enn.com/news/wire-stories/2002/03/03122002/ap_46651.asp
The hybrids are coming

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1654-2002Feb25.html
(washingtonpost.com)
Bush Touts Hybrid-Fuel Cars for His Energy Plan

But what we keep asking is why nobody's married diesel hybrids with
biodiesel. Well, somebody has. Have a look at this:

http://evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=312
It's An ENIGMA

This has all been previously covered here, by the way.

Best wishes

Keith
--- End forwarded message ---

Re: [biofuel] hybrid solar/flame system

[Bryan Fullerton]

I have been trying to build one of these gasifier stoves..  Tin cans of
various sizes in plenty. Someone mentioned they got a blue flame from wood
gas? I saw one example of this stove made from tin cans I would have loved
to see a diagram of. It was in your links below. The problem I have seen is
keeping the pyrolysis process going? Shoot I don't even know for sure what
that word means but whatever it is it keeps the gas coming out of the wood.
I had limited success when I tried to create the gas wick. I basically put a
smaller can inside the bigger one. I had to have a big fire going before it
would work, and then I still had flame below providing heat for the
incomplete combustion that was providing the gas(smoke). I have a feeling I
am missing something.. Not enough air mixing with the gas perhaps?

Any thoughts? thanks

---Bryan



- Original Message -
From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 3:07 PM
Subject: [biofuel] hybrid solar/flame system


> Hi Ian
>
> Very interested in your volcano kettle - especially since when I
> received this message I was messing around with some tin cans trying
> to build an Inverted Downdraft Gasifier stove. Are you familiar with
> IDD stoves? Try here (see Wood-gas stoves):
> http://journeytoforever.org/at_woodfire.html
>
> And here, for a good article by Tom Reed:
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/T1.htm
>
> Biomass Cooking Stoves page:
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
> Steve Spence has two relevant pages:
> http://www.webconx.com/wood_heat.htm
> http://www.webconx.com/woodgas.htm
>
> But I'd never heard of a volcano kettle. This is a really good idea.
> I went looking for the UK version you mentioned - NOT helped by the
> fact that you spelt it wrong! Should be KELLY KETTLE, not KELLY
> LETTLE (that'll teach me to cut and paste without looking). Anyway I
> found it, pictures and information, with a Shockwave animation
> showing how it works:
> http://www.y2k-millennium-supplies.co.uk/wood_burn/index.html
>
> I want one! Something tells me these two ideas - volcano kettles and
> IDD stoves - can be combined to good effect. But I'm still trying to
> get my head round the stove. In fact I got somewhere tonight. This'll
> explain what it does and why it might be worthwhile. With the other
> night's effort I ended up chucking the whole flaming contraption into
> a bucket of water. This time I used smaller cans, 400g tomato cans.
> Two cans, one has lots of holes punched into the bottom, and a sort
> of slider affair to control the air supply; the second can has no
> bottom and fits on top of the first can, with a 3mm gap between them.
> I filled the bottom can with 124g of bits of wood (like chopsticks),
> stacked upright, coming to about 1cm below the rim, lit some tinder
> on top and when it was burning I put the second can on, slowly, so it
> could heat up. The fire immediately stopped smoking and produced a
> nice clean hot gas flame. It burned for half an hour and certainly
> would have cooked a meal, if I'd arranged something to hold a pot on
> top of it. Then the flame went out and it started smoking. I closed
> the slider and it stopped smoking. A couple of minutes later I
> emptied a pile of nice charcoal sticks out of the bottom can, with no
> ash - 29g of charcoal, about 24% of the original wood weight. For
> comparison, I made an ordinary fire with 124g of similar wood in a
> grille and tried to boil a can of water on it. It burned for 10
> minutes, smoked a lot, and failed to boil the water, leaving 18g of
> unreusable ash and coals. Then I tried the charcoal from the IDD
> stove burn: it burned nicely for 25 minutes without any smoke and
> also failed to boil the water, but I wish I'd had some sausages. I
> was left with a small pile of ash. So, 55 minutes of dual cooking
> time, no polluting smoke, and very little waste, as opposed to 10
> minutes of smoke and wasted heat with a lot more waste. This is a
> very primitive first (er, second) attempt, it needs a lot more work -
> especially, it needs some insulation, lots of heat escaped through
> the tins. Anyway, you see the point. For us, this is for a schools
> project, but the main application is for improved Third World
> cookstoves. I hadn't thought of applying it to ethanol (and
> biodiesel) production.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Best
>
> Keith Addison
> Journey to Forever
> Handmade Projects
> Tokyo
> http://journeytoforever.org/
>
>
>
> Ian Bennett wrote:
>
> >I think that a large issue is the use of natural and renewable
> >energy so I am planning a hybrid solar/flame system.  My father had
> >something called a 'volcano kettle' back when he was prospecting in
> >the '50s which was an incredibly efficient way of boiling water (two
> >good mugs of coffee from one sheet of newspaper).  I found it a year
> >or two ago and use it regularly when camping.  There is a similar
> >one being made in the UK called the

RE: [biofuel] Hybrid Mileage Comes Up Short

[Ryan Morgan]

Bummer, my 235 ft. lbs. torque, Upsoluted 2002 Golf BioTDI is getting 45 MPG
at 80+ MPH.  Guess what I bought yesterday?  A bumper sticker featuring
Calvin p*ssing on the words, "Gas Hybrid."  Want a copy?

:)

Ryan

 -Original Message-
From: murdoch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 12:11 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [biofuel] Hybrid Mileage Comes Up Short


  In my view, it is long overdue that the EPA should improve its tests
  to reflect real-world mileage and not their out-of-touch lab work.

  http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63413,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1

  Hybrid cars are hot, but not as hot as their owners, who complain that
  their gas mileage hasn't come close to well-advertised estimates.

  Don't knock the car companies for inflated claims: Experts say the
  blame lies with the 19-year-old EPA fuel-efficiency test that
  overstates hybrid performance.

  Pete Blackshaw was so excited about getting a hybrid gasoline-electric
  car that he had his wife videotape the trip to the Honda dealership to
  pick up his Civic Hybrid. The enthusiastic owner ordered a customized
  license plate with "MO MILES" on it, and started a blog about his new
  hybrid lifestyle.

  But after a few months of commuting to his job in Cincinnati,
  Blackshaw's hybrid euphoria vanished as his car's odometer revealed
  that the gas mileage he was hoping for was only a pipe dream. Honda's
  Civic Hybrid is rated by the EPA to get 47 miles per gallon in the
  city, and 48 mpg on the highway. After nearly 1,000 miles of mostly
  city driving, Blackshaw was getting 31.4 mpg.

  "I feel like a complete fraud driving around Cincinnati with a license
  plate that says MO MILES," says Blackshaw, who claims that after 4,000
  miles his car has never gotten more than 33 mpg on any trip. The tenor
  of Blackshaw's blog shifted from adulation to frustration after his
  Honda dealer confirmed that his car was functioning properly, and that
  there was nothing he could do.

  [etc.]


  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

  Biofuels list archives:
  http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/

  Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
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Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Mileage Comes Up Short

[Busyditch]

Heck, I put a "Got 50MPG?" sticker on my TDi Golf and I'm embarrassed, too.
Because its been getting 53 MPG on road trips to my house in upstate NY. I'm
so ashamed. BSEG :>)
busyditch
- Original Message - 
From: "murdoch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 3:11 AM
Subject: [biofuel] Hybrid Mileage Comes Up Short


> In my view, it is long overdue that the EPA should improve its tests
> to reflect real-world mileage and not their out-of-touch lab work.
>
> http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63413,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1
>
> Hybrid cars are hot, but not as hot as their owners, who complain that
> their gas mileage hasn't come close to well-advertised estimates.
>
> Don't knock the car companies for inflated claims: Experts say the
> blame lies with the 19-year-old EPA fuel-efficiency test that
> overstates hybrid performance.
>
> Pete Blackshaw was so excited about getting a hybrid gasoline-electric
> car that he had his wife videotape the trip to the Honda dealership to
> pick up his Civic Hybrid. The enthusiastic owner ordered a customized
> license plate with "MO MILES" on it, and started a blog about his new
> hybrid lifestyle.
>
> But after a few months of commuting to his job in Cincinnati,
> Blackshaw's hybrid euphoria vanished as his car's odometer revealed
> that the gas mileage he was hoping for was only a pipe dream. Honda's
> Civic Hybrid is rated by the EPA to get 47 miles per gallon in the
> city, and 48 mpg on the highway. After nearly 1,000 miles of mostly
> city driving, Blackshaw was getting 31.4 mpg.
>
> "I feel like a complete fraud driving around Cincinnati with a license
> plate that says MO MILES," says Blackshaw, who claims that after 4,000
> miles his car has never gotten more than 33 mpg on any trip. The tenor
> of Blackshaw's blog shifted from adulation to frustration after his
> Honda dealer confirmed that his car was functioning properly, and that
> there was nothing he could do.
>
> [etc.]
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>




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