Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (relax)

t; -- Original Message -- > From: "Martin WINLOW via EV" > To: "Robert Bruninga" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion > List" > Sent: 27-Jun-14 1:51:59 AM > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (relax) > > "But in the long run

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

http://www.cvandewater.info >Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 > > >-Original Message- >From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com] >Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 6:14 PM >To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List >Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydr

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

Can you tell us how the survey was worded? The one resulting in a desire for renewable fuels? On June 26, 2014 11:25:14 AM CST, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: >On Jun 26, 2014, at 8:20 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV >wrote: > >>> Are you saying that the main problem with battery electrics >>> is al

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

[EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions) Can you tell us how the survey was worded? The one resulting in a desire for renewable fuels? On June 26, 2014 11:25:14 AM CST, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: On Jun 26, 2014, at 8:20 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: Are you saying that the main pr

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (relax)

ot; To: "Robert Bruninga" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" Sent: 27-Jun-14 1:51:59 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (relax) "But in the long run, when all the oil is gone, we will still need the density of chemical fuel for the long-haul interstate trave

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (relax)

EVs and FCV's are completely different applications. And only the media > > and others who think anything with 4 wheels and a GO pedal should do > > everything-for-everyone sees them as both very limited and the same... > > > > Bob > > > > -Original Message- > >

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (relax)

ia > EV > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 5:25 AM > To: Mark Abramowitz; Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts > > Mark, > > Please stop wittering on and actually address some of the points the anti > H2 FCV com

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

> > the truth must not be known or understood. > > Unfortunately you met the wrong crowd here. > > > > Goodbye. > > > > Cor van de Water > > Chief Scientist > > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com > > Email: cwa...@proxim.com Privat

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

tely you met the wrong crowd here. > > Goodbye. > > Cor van de Water > Chief Scientist > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com > Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info > Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 > > > --

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

:14 PM To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions) Sorry, got interrupted and accidentally sent it. On Jun 26, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: >> Yes, an energy carrier. I won't argue efficiency with you.

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

6 -Original Message- From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com] Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 6:14 PM To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions) Sorry, got interrupted and accidentally sent it. On Jun 26, 2014,

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

Sorry, got interrupted and accidentally sent it. On Jun 26, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: >> Yes, an energy carrier. I won't argue efficiency with you. > > But that is the biggest problem of Hydrogen and the reason > that everyone who understands Physics draws the conclusion

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

Mark Abramowitz wrote: > If you are saying that using natural gas directly in an ICE as > opposed to converting it to Hydrogen is a more efficient use, > I would tell you that you are missing my point. That is exactly what I am saying and I love to hear your point. In contrast to you, I love disc

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

On Jun 26, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: >> Yes, an energy carrier. I won't argue efficiency with you. > > But that is the biggest problem of Hydrogen and the reason > that everyone who understands Physics draws the conclusion > that there is no future in Hydrogen as fuel beca

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via EV Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 5:21 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydro

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

> Yes, an energy carrier. I won't argue efficiency with you. But that is the biggest problem of Hydrogen and the reason that everyone who understands Physics draws the conclusion that there is no future in Hydrogen as fuel because it is worse than just using the source energy (that what is used to

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

> On Jun 26, 2014, at 4:04 PM, "EVDL Administrator" wrote: > >> On 26 Jun 2014 at 13:00, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: >> >> Your premise is wrong. The big energy companies do *not* like FCVs. > > I suspect that they'd much prefer them to BEVs. > >>> Remember, hydrogen is not really a fuel.

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

On 26 Jun 2014 at 13:00, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: > Your premise is wrong. The big energy companies do *not* like FCVs. I suspect that they'd much prefer them to BEVs. > > Remember, hydrogen is not really a fuel. You can't pump it out of the > > ground. You have to make it from some oth

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

Thanks. ITS does lots of interesting stuff. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 26, 2014, at 10:24 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: >>> Careful: Studies have shown that about HALF of EV buyers also have >>> SOLAR or sign up for 100% solar/wind from their utilities. > >> Very interesting and promisin

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info > Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 > > > -Original Message- > From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 7:51 AM > To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

> On Jun 26, 2014, at 11:37 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV > wrote: > > BEVs will run on electricity you can make on your rooftop or back yard. Try > that with an ICEV or FCV. It can be done (veggie van anyone?), but the cost > and complexity can be daunting and it's not for the average guy.

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

BEVs will run on electricity you can make on your rooftop or back yard. Try that with an ICEV or FCV. It can be done (veggie van anyone?), but the cost and complexity can be daunting and it's not for the average guy. The big energy companies like the idea of FCVs because it preserves their ef

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

>> Careful: Studies have shown that about HALF of EV buyers also have >> SOLAR or sign up for 100% solar/wind from their utilities. > Very interesting and promising statistic. > Do you have a cite? Yes. Thanks for making me look it up. Its actually 60% in this study if you include those that wo

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts > On Jun 26, 2014, at 12:09 AM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: > > Mark, > > I asked you to give background for your absolute statement that an > unproven technology is the only solution I did not, and have never said that. I said: "It

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

Peter Eckhoff wrote: >Catastrophic failures would be catastrophic. To me, this is it in a nutshell. A gasoline tank explosion would pale in comparison On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote: > AC Propulsion had a Power Point slide where they compared the efficiency > of va

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

On Jun 26, 2014, at 8:20 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: >> Are you saying that the main problem with battery electrics >> is also that most of the power it uses is not renewable? > > Careful: Studies have shown that about HALF of EV buyers also have SOLAR > or sign up for 100% solar/wind fro

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

> Are you saying that the main problem with battery electrics > is also that most of the power it uses is not renewable? Careful: Studies have shown that about HALF of EV buyers also have SOLAR or sign up for 100% solar/wind from their utilities. It is -not- a coincidence that those who want to

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (relax)

> On Jun 26, 2014, at 7:32 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > > Folks, > > EV's and Hydorgen fuel cell cars are NOT in competition. (except in > Toyota's fantasy dreams).. There is no need to get worked up. > > EV's are far, far better for local travel and daily commuting ... Except for the

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

; <http://www.proxim.com> > Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info > <http://www.cvandewater.infom> > Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 > > ________ > > From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com] > Sent: We

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (relax)

ited and the same... Bob -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Martin WINLOW via EV Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 5:25 AM To: Mark Abramowitz; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts Mark, Please stop wittering on and act

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

>> Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info >> Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark Abramowitz >> via EV >> Sent: Wednesday,

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

Hello Mark, My contention was not to w(h)ine but to point out the technical deficiencies that needed to be addressed. Have they been addressed??? In reading the latest ad from Toyota on their 2015 FCV, the tanks will store hydrogen at 70 mega-pascals which converts to slightly over 10,000 p

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

w.cvandewater.infom> Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 7:21 PM To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

On Jun 25, 2014, at 8:45 PM, Michael Ross wrote: > > In the 1990's Honda sold an ICE Accord that had zero emissions. In LA it > made cleaner exhaust than what it aspirated. (Ignoring the CO2) The meaning > if zero is slippery, but the point is still there - even ICE can be pretty > good WRT

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

In the 1990's Honda sold an ICE Accord that had zero emissions. In LA it made cleaner exhaust than what it aspirated. (Ignoring the CO2) The meaning if zero is slippery, but the point is still there - even ICE can be pretty good WRT to clean air, if not carbon. A main problem with H2 is ineffic

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

Old news. http://www.arb.ca.gov/planning/vision/docs/vision_for_clean_air_public_review_draft.pdf Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 25, 2014, at 6:06 PM, Cor van de Water via EV > wrote: > > - this is news to me. Care to elaborate? -- next part -- An HTML attachment was s

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

o: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts There are a number of you that think that this is a technology food fight. It's not. Any food fight is one way, and fortunately you're just shouting into your own echo chamber. That's a go

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

m: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark Abramowitz > via EV > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 5:17 PM > To: Peter Eckhoff; Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts > > Sorry, finger slipped before I was done. > > ***

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark Abramowitz via EV Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 5:17 PM To: Peter Eckhoff; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts Sorry, finger slipped before I was

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

Sorry, finger slipped before I was done. ** Sounds like a very old analysis. Toyota will be selling their cars in California, which should be your first clue. BEV have had (and still do) their own challenges, too. But it's just not productive to focus on those as have all the "nega

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

Sounds like a very old analysis. Toyota will be selling their cars in California, which should be your first clue. BEV have had (and still do) their own challenges, too. But it's just not productive to focus on those as have all the "negative Nellies" for decades. I've heard over 30 years of "c

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

v-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peter Eckhoff via EV Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 3:48 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts AC Propulsion had a Power Point slide where they compared the efficiency of various "fuels". Their standard w

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

AC Propulsion had a Power Point slide where they compared the efficiency of various "fuels". Their standard was an EV with the equivalent of 50 MPG. A similar vehicle, powered by hydrogen produced from reformatted natural gas and fed into a fuel cell, was the equivalent of 30 mpg while hydrog

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

On 6/25/2014 2:04 PM, Dennis Miles wrote: Sorry, that is "Hazardous Material Handling" protocol. *Dennis Lee Miles * On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Dennis Miles > wrote: The difficulty in using Ammonia is, the ammonia used is "Anhydrous Ammonia 100%

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

Sorry, that is "Hazardous Material Handling" protocol. *Dennis Lee Miles * On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Dennis Miles wrote: > The difficulty in using Ammonia is, the ammonia used is "Anhydrous Ammonia > 100% and that is deadly poison at only a few percent when breathed. > Household am

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

The difficulty in using Ammonia is, the ammonia used is "Anhydrous Ammonia 100% and that is deadly poison at only a few percent when breathed. Household ammonia is less than 5% concentration in water and not useable in the process. Forget It !! I don't want to certainly die by poisoning in a minor

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

I've heard of this many times, but personally I've real concerns about the use of ammonia. Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 25, 2014, at 11:24 AM, Geoff Pullinger via EV > wrote: > >> On 6/25/2014 9:36 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: >> Generally, Hydrogen for transportation (no infrastructure)

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

On 6/25/2014 9:36 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: Generally, Hydrogen for transportation (no infrastructure) makes little sense compared to EV’s (everyone has an outlet in their garage). The business model for hydrogen cars is very weak (though it is needed for trucks and road warriors). BU

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (trucking)

o:solar...@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (trucking) >> Generally, Hydrogen for transportation (no infrastructure) makes >> little sense compared to EV’s (everyone has an outlet in their >> garage). Th

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (trucking)

>> Generally, Hydrogen for transportation (no infrastructure) makes >> little sense compared to EV’s (everyone has an outlet in their >> garage). The business model for hydrogen cars is very weak (though it >> is needed for trucks and road warriors). > I'm not sure what you mean by "needed for tr

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

> On Jun 25, 2014, at 7:36 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > > Generally, Hydrogen for transportation (no infrastructure) makes little > sense compared to EV’s (everyone has an outlet in their garage). The > business model for hydrogen cars is very weak (though it is needed for > trucks and r

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

I just had to do an estimate on solar PV to Electrolysis to H2 storage to fuels cell to power out. The electrolysis is limited by physics to be no better than 80% efficient making H2, and commercially is it somewhat less than that. Fuel cell conversion is probably in the range of 50% efficient tho

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

;ll get lots of examples. Peri -- Original Message -- From: "Martin WINLOW via EV" To: "Robert Bruninga" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" Sent: 25-Jun-14 8:28:54 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts Surely there is a more efficient way of storing ex

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

Surely there is a more efficient way of storing excess electric power than this?! Even pumping water up into reservoirs and then dropping again through turbines (like the UK national grid does in wales http://www.fhc.co.uk/ffestiniog.htm ) must be more efficient? Wont work very well in the Gr

[EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

Generally, Hydrogen for transportation (no infrastructure) makes little sense compared to EV’s (everyone has an outlet in their garage). The business model for hydrogen cars is very weak (though it is needed for trucks and road warriors). BUT! There is a future for hydrogen in utility scale