Re: [AFMUG] Cost effective Frequency Coordination ???

[Ken Hohhof]

Most WISP PCNs seem to  be from Comsearch, Micronet or Intelpath.  All will get 
the job done.

 

If you have some licensed links already and don’t have frequency protection 
service, you get copied on a lot of PCNs.  One thing I look for is how many 
PCNs get re-issued, especially multiple times.  That can indicate the frequency 
coordinator was sloppy, but could also just be their client gave them bad data 
(like lat/lon or height AGL) and then corrected it.  I remember a couple years 
ago seeing a lot of PCNs that didn’t include adaptive modulation, or adaptive 
transmit power per modulation level, and sure enough a week later there would 
be a modified PCN.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 9:54 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cost effective Frequency Coordination ???

 

Last I checked, there really wasn't that much price difference between the 
various companies. I used Comsearch for the last few we did.

 

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 9:02 AM Lewis Bergman mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Is Micronet that woman owned firm? I don't remember how many people she has but 
she was always inexpensive, and on top of things. A rare combo.

 

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 7:18 AM Matt Hoppes mailto:mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> > wrote:

Micronet


On Oct 23, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Paul McCall mailto:pa...@pdmnet.net> > wrote:

I have 4 or 5 licensed backhaul  links to get coordinated .

 

Who is the best for getting this done cost effectively (cheap)?

 

Paul

 

Paul McCall, President 

Florida Broadband / PDMNet

658 Old Dixie Highway

Vero Beach, FL 32962

772-564-6800

 

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Re: [AFMUG] 450SMs

[Ken Hohhof]

Maybe they just need to go with something like TwistPort and let 3rd party 
manufacturers sell dishes.  Oh, right, regulatory approvals.  Nonethless, I 
suspect that may be where they are headed with the connectorized SM.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 5:13 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 450SMs

 

If they sold me a full 2' dish at 28dbi then I could definitely find places to 
use that.

 

On 10/23/2019 5:52 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

Yeah, a one year delay is a pretty big oops, but it’s not really a solution to 
the problem anyway.  Except that 450b gets rid of the hated speed caps and also 
enables 5.1 GHz sub band.  I’m not thrilled about SMA connectors on the top, 
KPP included a nice mounting post for the current style connectorized SM, I’ll 
have to see if it still works with the new SM.

 

What they probably need is a slightly larger and also deeper parabolic dish, 
get the gain back to 25 dBi, and better sidelobe performance.  Or get to the 
bottom of why the 450d/450b style dish seems so much more susceptible to 
reflection and multipath degradation.  I think Cambium expected higher xmt 
power would compensate for lower antenna gain, but that does nothing for 
downstream.

 

I heard a rumor they were redesigning or eliminating the cable gland?  Was that 
mentioned at Wispapalooza?

 

 

From: AF    On Behalf 
Of Sean Heskett
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 2:30 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group   
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 450SMs

 

They are coming out with a 450b connectorized but at wispapalooza they said it 
was delayed until March 2020 (it was supposed to ship March of 2019)

 

-Sean

 

 

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 9:04 AM Adam Moffett mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Okay I haven't paid a lot of attention to PMP450 since I've been in a 
Telrad shop for a few years.  It looks like the old style SM was 
discontinued.

The Old SM + Reflector was said to have 25dbi of gain.

The replacement 450b "high gain" integrated dish is 22dbi.

Are you kidding me?  Cambium, why you takin' my db's away bro?



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Re: [AFMUG] OT: What do Icon's Look Like

[Bill Prince]

Yeah. Plus the tornado, the candlestick, and the gingerbread man.


bp


On 10/23/2019 3:20 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

I go through that all the time with customer routers.

Q:  Is the Internet light on?
A:  I don't see an Internet light.  There's a tadpole, a sparkler, ...

It's very sad, given that every country in the world probably knows what
words like Internet and WiFi mean.  Try using Google to translate those
"English" words into other languages like Spanish or German.

But instead we get tadpole and sparkler icons that nobody can figure out.


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Nate Burke
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 10:27 AM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: [AFMUG] OT: What do Icon's Look Like

So I was trying to explain to my Mother over the phone last night how to
Rescan her TV after the channel changes last weekend.  The TV only has
Icon's for choosing menu options, no Text.  What I'm describing as the
Icon's she needs to click on, she can't find (A picture of a little
antenna), and what She is describing the icons on the screen look like, I
can't figure out what they are ("There's a G with a dot in it").  Why can't
Icon's just look like what they're supposed to be?



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Re: [AFMUG] OT: What do Icon's Look Like

[Ken Hohhof]

I go through that all the time with customer routers.

Q:  Is the Internet light on?
A:  I don't see an Internet light.  There's a tadpole, a sparkler, ...

It's very sad, given that every country in the world probably knows what
words like Internet and WiFi mean.  Try using Google to translate those
"English" words into other languages like Spanish or German.

But instead we get tadpole and sparkler icons that nobody can figure out.


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Nate Burke
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 10:27 AM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: [AFMUG] OT: What do Icon's Look Like

So I was trying to explain to my Mother over the phone last night how to
Rescan her TV after the channel changes last weekend.  The TV only has
Icon's for choosing menu options, no Text.  What I'm describing as the
Icon's she needs to click on, she can't find (A picture of a little
antenna), and what She is describing the icons on the screen look like, I
can't figure out what they are ("There's a G with a dot in it").  Why can't
Icon's just look like what they're supposed to be?



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Re: [AFMUG] 450SMs

[Adam Moffett]

If they sold me a full 2' dish at 28dbi then I could definitely find 
places to use that.



On 10/23/2019 5:52 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


Yeah, a one year delay is a pretty big oops, but it’s not really a 
solution to the problem anyway. Except that 450b gets rid of the hated 
speed caps and also enables 5.1 GHz sub band.  I’m not thrilled about 
SMA connectors on the top, KPP included a nice mounting post for the 
current style connectorized SM, I’ll have to see if it still works 
with the new SM.


What they probably need is a slightly larger and also deeper parabolic 
dish, get the gain back to 25 dBi, and better sidelobe performance.  
Or get to the bottom of why the 450d/450b style dish seems so much 
more susceptible to reflection and multipath degradation.  I think 
Cambium expected higher xmt power would compensate for lower antenna 
gain, but that does nothing for downstream.


I heard a rumor they were redesigning or eliminating the cable gland?  
Was that mentioned at Wispapalooza?


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Sean Heskett
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2019 2:30 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 450SMs

They are coming out with a 450b connectorized but at wispapalooza they 
said it was delayed until March 2020 (it was supposed to ship March of 
2019)


-Sean

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 9:04 AM Adam Moffett > wrote:


Okay I haven't paid a lot of attention to PMP450 since I've been in a
Telrad shop for a few years.  It looks like the old style SM was
discontinued.

The Old SM + Reflector was said to have 25dbi of gain.

The replacement 450b "high gain" integrated dish is 22dbi.

Are you kidding me?  Cambium, why you takin' my db's away bro?



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Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Adam Moffett]

That's a fair point.

On 10/23/2019 1:42 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:

Agreed. But just because 2/3 of the traffic goes that way doesn’t mean I gain 
anything from it.

And as long as the fax machine is downloading images as quickly as the mobile 
phone. Does it matter?


On Oct 23, 2019, at 12:19 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:

Matt, that's a strawman.  Nobody in this thread has argued that IPv4 isn't 
alive or in demand.

However, if you did implement dual stack I think you'd find that 2/3's of your traffic 
(by volume) will run on IPv6.  IPv6 was created 20 years ago.  It's not new or 
"beta".  Adoption has been slow for all the reasons you stated about costs vs 
benefits, but IPv4 depletion is pushing this issue over the hump.

If you're able to get what you need and you're happy with the prices then 
nobody's going to make you change, but eventually you're going to get odd looks 
like the old guy who won't give up his fax machine.



On 10/23/2019 11:58 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
Prices for IPv4 on the secondary market continue to rise... that doesn't sound 
like a commodity that's on its way out.. that sounds like something that's very 
much alive and in demand.


On 10/23/19 11:54 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
Not a penny wise, but definitely a pound foolish.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Matt Hoppes" 
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Sent: *Wednesday, October 23, 2019 8:01:22 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

FUD ALERT!  FUD ALERT!   IPv4 is not going away any time soon, it's not
practical. There are too many things that rely on IPv4.  And until
I can run only one stack I'm not planning to mass deploy IPv6. We have
an IPv6 deployment plan, but there is minimal benefit in dual stacking
and no financial gain until we need to.

Right now there is a negative benefit for deploying IPv6 (overhead,
management, no ROI, can't bill customers for static IPs).

We have a plan, but until it's needed we don't plan to roll  it out.
IPv4 will be here for many years to come.

On 10/23/19 8:54 AM, dave via AF wrote:
  >
  > Yeah.. No..
  > They are more up to date than you think just not ahead
  >
  > On 10/21/19 2:20 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
  >> yeah, no.
  >> .gov agencies still run dos
  >> 10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized enough to
  >> shut down ip4 access
  >>
  >>
  >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12 PM Dennis Burgess via AF > > wrote:
  >>
  >> Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4 years, if the
  >> .govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons.  No more FCC/
  >> IRS or any .GOV unless over v6.  Note that the current plan is 2-3
  >> years, I have given it an extra year for measure!
  >>
  >> V6 should be deployed NOW.   Not later, when you HAVE TO.  Then
  >> you will be making mistakes etc.
  >>
  >> *LTI-Full_175px*
  >>
  >> *Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
  >> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium
  >> ePMP Certified *
  >>
  >> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
  >>
  >> *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
  >>
  >> *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
  >> 
  >>
  >> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
  >> 
  >>
  >> *From:* AF > > *On Behalf Of * Steve Jones
  >> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 2:07 PM
  >> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > >
  >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space
  >>
  >> NAT problems with BGP are why we are looking for more IP space
  >>
  >> IP6 is still years out for us
  >>
  >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:43 PM Adam Moffett > > wrote:
  >>
  >> If you're not doing it already, start thinking about dual
  >> stack with IPv4 CGN and IPv6 public IPs. There's a learning
  >> curve, but it's not that bad.
  >>
  >> -Adam
  >>
  >> On 10/21/2019 12:51 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
  >>
  >> Where is the best place to get these? How do we verify
  >> space has a decent reputation so we dont go through months
  >> of cleanup and all 

Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity

[Ken Hohhof]

The noise reminds me of a washing machine.  Or maybe the gloppita gloppita 
machine from How To Murder Your Wife.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Rory Conaway
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 2:18 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity

 

The affect of windmills goes beyond the 140-330K or so they directly kill every 
year.  The noise is affecting mating for them as well as other species.  I’m 
all for solar assuming they get Peroksvite cranked up soon but I’m not a fan of 
windmills.

 

Rory

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 9:52 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity

 

I read an article once which claimed that to satisfy worldwide electric demand 
via wind alone would require extracting 100% of the energy from the wind.  That 
is to say, it would require stopping the wind. 

-Adam

On 8/22/2019 5:25 PM, Bill Prince wrote:

I am unschooled in this, but since windmills extract energy from wind, they 
would actually DECREASE wind locally. Might be pretty hard to measure though.

 

bp

 

On 8/22/2019 2:18 PM, Carl Peterson wrote:

I believe that mountain lions go downwind to stalk their prey. Is there any 
chance that the increased wind caused by the windmills has led to an influx of 
mountain lions because their prey is easier to stalk? Somebody should look into 
this.

 

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 4:08 PM Carl Peterson mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com> > wrote:

Thats completely bogus.  Windmills don't attract cats.  The wind from the 
windmills blows away the smell of predators which causes the mice and birds to 
come out.  Its the mice and birds that attract the cats.  

 

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 4:04 PM Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> > wrote:

Well I hear that windmills attract cats.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:15 PM, Bill Prince   > wrote:
> 
> Based upon what I've read, the danger to birds is way, way overstated. 
> Probably at least an order of magnitude. Cats are far more dangerous to birds.
> 
> 
> bp
> 
> 
>> On 8/22/2019 1:10 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
>> You are diving down on a mouse that was disturbed by the tip vortex off a 
>> 300mph passing blade tip and swap...   300mph _next_ blade tip knocks you 
>> into oblivion...
>> 
>>> On 08/22/2019 01:01 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
>>> Well, that explains the bats, but what about the raptors? Do they just die 
>>> from disgust because they think it's an eyesore?
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 6:53 PM Chuck McCown >>    
>>> >> wrote:
>>> 
>>> There is a low pressure zone on the lee side of the blade that
>>> apparently is
>>> dramatic enough of a pressure change to cause some kind of lung
>>> damage to
>>> bats.
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Robert Andrews
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 5:27 PM
>>> To: af@af.afmug.com   >>  >
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity
>>> 
>>> That was back in 2012, and the blades were 75 Meters now blades are
>>> exceeding 104 Meters
>>> 
>>> On 08/21/2019 04:23 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
>>>  > Ummm   blade tip speed is still pretty darn high. Just because
>>> it looks
>>>  > slow doesn't mean that it is...  180Mph...
>>>  >
>>>  >
>>> https://gizmodo.com/the-worlds-biggest-wind-turbine-blades-are-so-long-thei-5930272
>>>  >
>>>  > On 08/21/2019 04:13 PM, Bill Prince wrote:
>>>  >> Not the new giant ones. They move very slowly & the birds & bats
>>> just fly
>>>  >> around them.
>>>  >>
>>>  >>
>>>  >> bp
>>>  >> 
>>>  >>
>>>  >> On 8/21/2019 3:11 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
>>>  >>> Wind kills bats and raptors and migratory waterfowl
>>>  >>
>>>  >
>>> 
>>> -- AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com   >>  >
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com   >>  >
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
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Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707 




 

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PORT NETWORKS

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Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707 

 

 

 

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Re: [AFMUG] 450SMs

[Ken Hohhof]

Yeah, a one year delay is a pretty big oops, but it’s not really a solution to 
the problem anyway.  Except that 450b gets rid of the hated speed caps and also 
enables 5.1 GHz sub band.  I’m not thrilled about SMA connectors on the top, 
KPP included a nice mounting post for the current style connectorized SM, I’ll 
have to see if it still works with the new SM.

 

What they probably need is a slightly larger and also deeper parabolic dish, 
get the gain back to 25 dBi, and better sidelobe performance.  Or get to the 
bottom of why the 450d/450b style dish seems so much more susceptible to 
reflection and multipath degradation.  I think Cambium expected higher xmt 
power would compensate for lower antenna gain, but that does nothing for 
downstream.

 

I heard a rumor they were redesigning or eliminating the cable gland?  Was that 
mentioned at Wispapalooza?

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Sean Heskett
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 2:30 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 450SMs

 

They are coming out with a 450b connectorized but at wispapalooza they said it 
was delayed until March 2020 (it was supposed to ship March of 2019)

 

-Sean

 

 

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 9:04 AM Adam Moffett mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Okay I haven't paid a lot of attention to PMP450 since I've been in a 
Telrad shop for a few years.  It looks like the old style SM was 
discontinued.

The Old SM + Reflector was said to have 25dbi of gain.

The replacement 450b "high gain" integrated dish is 22dbi.

Are you kidding me?  Cambium, why you takin' my db's away bro?



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Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Ken Hohhof]

Vets have to tell people when it's time to euthanize their pets.  I think as 
technology experts sometimes we need to do the equivalent.

Like the people who wouldn't let go of dialup, or who are still using Windows 
98/ME/Vista, or who insist they don't need a password on their WiFi.  Old 
habits die hard.  Some people drive new cars but still pump the gas 3 times 
before starting the engine.


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 2:59 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

On 10/23/19 6:59 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:
> I only disagree with the statement that you won't deploy until you can 
> run only one stack.  Did you keep faxing until everybody else had email?
> 


Not everyone keeps up with technology. My grandmother held on to rotary pulse 
dial phones until touch tone was mandatory.

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Re: [AFMUG] email client

[Rory Conaway]

We use Outlook including the entire Microsoft Office Suite.  We have our own 
Exchange Server though.

Rory

From: AF  On Behalf Of Adair Winter
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2019 6:54 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] email client

I can't imagine actually using a mail client in 2019..


On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 8:53 PM Ken Hohhof 
mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:
Do any of you have an email client you recommend to people who don’t buy 
Outlook?  I checked out the Mail app in Windows 10, and IMHO, it really sucks, 
I wouldn’t recommend it to anybody.
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Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071
C: 806.231.7180
http://www.amarillowireless.net
[https://docs.google.com/a/amarillowireless.net/uc?id=0B-KeaiwIRBHEQl9leFFvVjZuWmc=download]

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Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Matt Hoppes]

I mean... I can still dial on my touch tone phone by lifting and hanging 
up the receiver very quickly.


On 10/23/19 3:59 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:

On 10/23/19 6:59 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:
I only disagree with the statement that you won't deploy until you can 
run only one stack.  Did you keep faxing until everybody else had email?





Not everyone keeps up with technology. My grandmother held on to rotary 
pulse dial phones until touch tone was mandatory.




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Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Seth Mattinen]

On 10/23/19 6:59 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:
I only disagree with the statement that you won't deploy until you can 
run only one stack.  Did you keep faxing until everybody else had email?





Not everyone keeps up with technology. My grandmother held on to rotary 
pulse dial phones until touch tone was mandatory.


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Re: [AFMUG] Ceragon 39GHz

[Seth Mattinen]

On 10/23/19 12:15 PM, Rory Conaway wrote:
I have several 39GHz radios I’ll let go for a decent price.  Shipping is 
going to be expensive though.



I opened up one of mine to see how they were put together.

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Re: [AFMUG] 450SMs

[Sean Heskett]

They are coming out with a 450b connectorized but at wispapalooza they said
it was delayed until March 2020 (it was supposed to ship March of 2019)

-Sean


On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 9:04 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:

> Okay I haven't paid a lot of attention to PMP450 since I've been in a
> Telrad shop for a few years.  It looks like the old style SM was
> discontinued.
>
> The Old SM + Reflector was said to have 25dbi of gain.
>
> The replacement 450b "high gain" integrated dish is 22dbi.
>
> Are you kidding me?  Cambium, why you takin' my db's away bro?
>
>
>
> --
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity

[Lewis Bergman]

It seems odd that if you get oil on the feathers of a common sparrow (of
which there are hundreds of millions) it has to be reported to the EPA. If
windmills knock 1000 eagles out of the air nobody gives two cents.

A friend with a bunch of windmills on a ranchette of his was asked to stop
field dressing dear in a location between two windmills because the
buzzards it attracted were getting killed with great regularity.

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 2:18 PM Rory Conaway  wrote:

> The affect of windmills goes beyond the 140-330K or so they directly kill
> every year.  The noise is affecting mating for them as well as other
> species.  I’m all for solar assuming they get Peroksvite cranked up soon
> but I’m not a fan of windmills.
>
>
>
> Rory
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Adam Moffett
> *Sent:* Friday, August 23, 2019 9:52 AM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity
>
>
>
> I read an article once which claimed that to satisfy worldwide electric
> demand via wind alone would require extracting 100% of the energy from the
> wind.  That is to say, it would require stopping the wind.
>
> -Adam
>
> On 8/22/2019 5:25 PM, Bill Prince wrote:
>
> I am unschooled in this, but since windmills extract energy from wind,
> they would actually DECREASE wind locally. Might be pretty hard to measure
> though.
>
>
>
> bp
>
> 
>
>
>
> On 8/22/2019 2:18 PM, Carl Peterson wrote:
>
> I believe that mountain lions go downwind to stalk their prey. Is there
> any chance that the increased wind caused by the windmills has led to an
> influx of mountain lions because their prey is easier to stalk? Somebody
> should look into this.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 4:08 PM Carl Peterson 
> wrote:
>
> Thats completely bogus.  Windmills don't attract cats.  The wind from the
> windmills blows away the smell of predators which causes the mice and birds
> to come out.  Its the mice and birds that attract the cats.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 4:04 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
> Well I hear that windmills attract cats.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:15 PM, Bill Prince  wrote:
> >
> > Based upon what I've read, the danger to birds is way, way overstated.
> Probably at least an order of magnitude. Cats are far more dangerous to
> birds.
> >
> >
> > bp
> > 
> >
> >> On 8/22/2019 1:10 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
> >> You are diving down on a mouse that was disturbed by the tip vortex off
> a 300mph passing blade tip and swap...   300mph _next_ blade tip knocks you
> into oblivion...
> >>
> >>> On 08/22/2019 01:01 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
> >>> Well, that explains the bats, but what about the raptors? Do they just
> die from disgust because they think it's an eyesore?
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 6:53 PM Chuck McCown  ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> There is a low pressure zone on the lee side of the blade that
> >>> apparently is
> >>> dramatic enough of a pressure change to cause some kind of lung
> >>> damage to
> >>> bats.
> >>>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: Robert Andrews
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 5:27 PM
> >>> To: af@af.afmug.com 
> >>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity
> >>>
> >>> That was back in 2012, and the blades were 75 Meters now blades are
> >>> exceeding 104 Meters
> >>>
> >>> On 08/21/2019 04:23 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
> >>>  > Ummm   blade tip speed is still pretty darn high. Just because
> >>> it looks
> >>>  > slow doesn't mean that it is...  180Mph...
> >>>  >
> >>>  >
> >>>
> https://gizmodo.com/the-worlds-biggest-wind-turbine-blades-are-so-long-thei-5930272
> >>>  >
> >>>  > On 08/21/2019 04:13 PM, Bill Prince wrote:
> >>>  >> Not the new giant ones. They move very slowly & the birds &
> bats
> >>> just fly
> >>>  >> around them.
> >>>  >>
> >>>  >>
> >>>  >> bp
> >>>  >> 
> >>>  >>
> >>>  >> On 8/21/2019 3:11 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
> >>>  >>> Wind kills bats and raptors and migratory waterfowl
> >>>  >>
> >>>  >
> >>>
> >>> -- AF mailing list
> >>> AF@af.afmug.com 
> >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -- AF mailing list
> >>> AF@af.afmug.com 
> >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > AF mailing list
> > AF@af.afmug.com
> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Carl Peterson
>
> *PORT NETWORKS*
>
> 401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
>
> Baltimore, MD 21202
>
> (410) 637-3707
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Carl Peterson
>
> *PORT NETWORKS*
>
> 401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
>
> Baltimore, MD 21202
>
> (410) 637-3707
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> 

Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity

[Rory Conaway]

The affect of windmills goes beyond the 140-330K or so they directly kill every 
year.  The noise is affecting mating for them as well as other species.  I’m 
all for solar assuming they get Peroksvite cranked up soon but I’m not a fan of 
windmills.

Rory

From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 9:52 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity

I read an article once which claimed that to satisfy worldwide electric demand 
via wind alone would require extracting 100% of the energy from the wind.  That 
is to say, it would require stopping the wind.

-Adam
On 8/22/2019 5:25 PM, Bill Prince wrote:

I am unschooled in this, but since windmills extract energy from wind, they 
would actually DECREASE wind locally. Might be pretty hard to measure though.



bp




On 8/22/2019 2:18 PM, Carl Peterson wrote:
I believe that mountain lions go downwind to stalk their prey. Is there any 
chance that the increased wind caused by the windmills has led to an influx of 
mountain lions because their prey is easier to stalk? Somebody should look into 
this.

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 4:08 PM Carl Peterson 
mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>> wrote:
Thats completely bogus.  Windmills don't attract cats.  The wind from the 
windmills blows away the smell of predators which causes the mice and birds to 
come out.  Its the mice and birds that attract the cats.

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 4:04 PM Chuck McCown 
mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
Well I hear that windmills attract cats.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:15 PM, Bill Prince 
> mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Based upon what I've read, the danger to birds is way, way overstated. 
> Probably at least an order of magnitude. Cats are far more dangerous to birds.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
>> On 8/22/2019 1:10 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
>> You are diving down on a mouse that was disturbed by the tip vortex off a 
>> 300mph passing blade tip and swap...   300mph _next_ blade tip knocks you 
>> into oblivion...
>>
>>> On 08/22/2019 01:01 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
>>> Well, that explains the bats, but what about the raptors? Do they just die 
>>> from disgust because they think it's an eyesore?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 6:53 PM Chuck McCown 
>>> mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> 
>>> >> wrote:
>>>
>>> There is a low pressure zone on the lee side of the blade that
>>> apparently is
>>> dramatic enough of a pressure change to cause some kind of lung
>>> damage to
>>> bats.
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Robert Andrews
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 5:27 PM
>>> To: af@af.afmug.com 
>>> >
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity
>>>
>>> That was back in 2012, and the blades were 75 Meters now blades are
>>> exceeding 104 Meters
>>>
>>> On 08/21/2019 04:23 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
>>>  > Ummm   blade tip speed is still pretty darn high. Just because
>>> it looks
>>>  > slow doesn't mean that it is...  180Mph...
>>>  >
>>>  >
>>> https://gizmodo.com/the-worlds-biggest-wind-turbine-blades-are-so-long-thei-5930272
>>>  >
>>>  > On 08/21/2019 04:13 PM, Bill Prince wrote:
>>>  >> Not the new giant ones. They move very slowly & the birds & bats
>>> just fly
>>>  >> around them.
>>>  >>
>>>  >>
>>>  >> bp
>>>  >> 
>>>  >>
>>>  >> On 8/21/2019 3:11 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
>>>  >>> Wind kills bats and raptors and migratory waterfowl
>>>  >>
>>>  >
>>>
>>> -- AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com 
>>> >
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -- AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com 
>>> >
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


--

Carl Peterson

PORT NETWORKS

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707


--

Carl Peterson

PORT NETWORKS

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707





-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Ceragon 39GHz

[Rory Conaway]

I have several 39GHz radios I’ll let go for a decent price.  Shipping is going 
to be expensive though.

Rory

From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2019 9:54 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ceragon 39GHz


Apart from non-compliant operation:  I think in some non-FCC countries they can 
use 39ghz.  I don't know how to connect with international buyers though, and 
even if I did I don't know what they would be willing to pay.  I gave up on it.

-Adam


On 10/2/2019 12:26 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:
If they have Ethernet interfaces, and you're far from civilization, and you 
don't mind the power usage: free house to garage link.

On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 11:21 AM Jason McKemie 
mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>> 
wrote:
Is there any value in these other than scrap metal? --
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Saisei Hardware

[Rory Conaway]

Check Ebay.  We use a lot of the Quanta servers.

Rory

From: AF  On Behalf Of Adair Winter
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 9:01 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Saisei Hardware

We never buy new servers. Send the specs over to the guys at 
https://www.stikc.com/ and they will help you get a matching box.
Usually about half the cost of a new one.

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 10:00 AM Kurt Fankhauser 
mailto:lists.wavel...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Does anyone have an recommend hardware for a Saisei traffic shaping box? 
Powercode gave me some recommended Dell servers but looking for something a 
little more cost effecting, looking to filter between 1G-2G. Didn't know if 
there was a nice cheap box out there preferable something that's not too deep 
because one tower i have has a shallow rack only 23 inches depth.
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


--

Adair Winter
VP, Network Operations / Co-Owner
Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071
C: 806.231.7180
http://www.amarillowireless.net
[https://docs.google.com/a/amarillowireless.net/uc?id=0B-KeaiwIRBHEQl9leFFvVjZuWmc=download]

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Steve Jones]

Regarding gubmint shutting down IPv4 access, this is the US, and the ADA is
abused, I guarantee thats what Meemaw will use to sue when she cant get to
her benefits on her subsidized connection thats only operating IPv4


On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 12:59 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:

> Yeah, I don't really see that it makes much difference from my point of
> view how much traffic goes across IPv6... until it's to the point where
> enough of it is going that way that nobody will care that the IPv4 traffic
> is behind CGNAT. Otherwise, I don't see that it's going to matter until
> there gets to be stuff out there that only works over IPv6... then it will
> matter a lot.
>
> On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 12:43 PM Matt Hoppes <
> mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:
>
>> Agreed. But just because 2/3 of the traffic goes that way doesn’t mean I
>> gain anything from it.
>>
>> And as long as the fax machine is downloading images as quickly as the
>> mobile phone. Does it matter?
>>
>> > On Oct 23, 2019, at 12:19 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>> >
>> > Matt, that's a strawman.  Nobody in this thread has argued that IPv4
>> isn't alive or in demand.
>> >
>> > However, if you did implement dual stack I think you'd find that 2/3's
>> of your traffic (by volume) will run on IPv6.  IPv6 was created 20 years
>> ago.  It's not new or "beta".  Adoption has been slow for all the reasons
>> you stated about costs vs benefits, but IPv4 depletion is pushing this
>> issue over the hump.
>> >
>> > If you're able to get what you need and you're happy with the prices
>> then nobody's going to make you change, but eventually you're going to get
>> odd looks like the old guy who won't give up his fax machine.
>> >
>> >
>> >> On 10/23/2019 11:58 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>> >> Prices for IPv4 on the secondary market continue to rise... that
>> doesn't sound like a commodity that's on its way out.. that sounds like
>> something that's very much alive and in demand.
>> >>
>> >>> On 10/23/19 11:54 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
>> >>> Not a penny wise, but definitely a pound foolish.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -
>> >>> Mike Hammett
>> >>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>> >>> <
>> https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><
>> https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><
>> https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>> >>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>> >>> <
>> https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><
>> https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>> >>> The Brothers WISP 
>> >>> 
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> 
>> >>>
>> 
>> >>> *From: *"Matt Hoppes" 
>> >>> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>> >>> *Sent: *Wednesday, October 23, 2019 8:01:22 AM
>> >>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space
>> >>>
>> >>> FUD ALERT!  FUD ALERT!   IPv4 is not going away any time soon, it's
>> not
>> >>> practical. There are too many things that rely on IPv4.  And until
>> >>> I can run only one stack I'm not planning to mass deploy IPv6. We have
>> >>> an IPv6 deployment plan, but there is minimal benefit in dual stacking
>> >>> and no financial gain until we need to.
>> >>>
>> >>> Right now there is a negative benefit for deploying IPv6 (overhead,
>> >>> management, no ROI, can't bill customers for static IPs).
>> >>>
>> >>> We have a plan, but until it's needed we don't plan to roll  it out.
>> >>> IPv4 will be here for many years to come.
>> >>>
>> >>> On 10/23/19 8:54 AM, dave via AF wrote:
>> >>>  >
>> >>>  > Yeah.. No..
>> >>>  > They are more up to date than you think just not ahead
>> >>>  >
>> >>>  > On 10/21/19 2:20 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
>> >>>  >> yeah, no.
>> >>>  >> .gov agencies still run dos
>> >>>  >> 10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized
>> enough to
>> >>>  >> shut down ip4 access
>> >>>  >>
>> >>>  >>
>> >>>  >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12 PM Dennis Burgess via AF <
>> af@af.afmug.com
>> >>>  >> > wrote:
>> >>>  >>
>> >>>  >> Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4 years, if
>> the
>> >>>  >> .govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons.  No more
>> FCC/
>> >>>  >> IRS or any .GOV unless over v6.  Note that the current plan
>> is 2-3
>> >>>  >> years, I have given it an extra year for measure!
>> >>>  >>
>> >>>  >> V6 should be deployed NOW.   Not later, when you HAVE TO.
>> Then
>> >>>  >> you will be making mistakes etc.
>> >>>  >>
>> >>>  >> *LTI-Full_175px*
>> >>>  >>
>> >>>  >> *Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
>> >>>  >> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage,
>> Cambium
>> >>>  >> ePMP Certified *
>> >>>  >>
>> >>>  >> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second 

Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, I don't really see that it makes much difference from my point of
view how much traffic goes across IPv6... until it's to the point where
enough of it is going that way that nobody will care that the IPv4 traffic
is behind CGNAT. Otherwise, I don't see that it's going to matter until
there gets to be stuff out there that only works over IPv6... then it will
matter a lot.

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 12:43 PM Matt Hoppes <
mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:

> Agreed. But just because 2/3 of the traffic goes that way doesn’t mean I
> gain anything from it.
>
> And as long as the fax machine is downloading images as quickly as the
> mobile phone. Does it matter?
>
> > On Oct 23, 2019, at 12:19 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
> >
> > Matt, that's a strawman.  Nobody in this thread has argued that IPv4
> isn't alive or in demand.
> >
> > However, if you did implement dual stack I think you'd find that 2/3's
> of your traffic (by volume) will run on IPv6.  IPv6 was created 20 years
> ago.  It's not new or "beta".  Adoption has been slow for all the reasons
> you stated about costs vs benefits, but IPv4 depletion is pushing this
> issue over the hump.
> >
> > If you're able to get what you need and you're happy with the prices
> then nobody's going to make you change, but eventually you're going to get
> odd looks like the old guy who won't give up his fax machine.
> >
> >
> >> On 10/23/2019 11:58 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> >> Prices for IPv4 on the secondary market continue to rise... that
> doesn't sound like a commodity that's on its way out.. that sounds like
> something that's very much alive and in demand.
> >>
> >>> On 10/23/19 11:54 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
> >>> Not a penny wise, but definitely a pound foolish.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -
> >>> Mike Hammett
> >>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> >>> <
> https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><
> https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><
> https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> >>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> >>> <
> https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><
> https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> >>> The Brothers WISP 
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>>
> 
> >>> *From: *"Matt Hoppes" 
> >>> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> >>> *Sent: *Wednesday, October 23, 2019 8:01:22 AM
> >>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space
> >>>
> >>> FUD ALERT!  FUD ALERT!   IPv4 is not going away any time soon, it's not
> >>> practical. There are too many things that rely on IPv4.  And until
> >>> I can run only one stack I'm not planning to mass deploy IPv6. We have
> >>> an IPv6 deployment plan, but there is minimal benefit in dual stacking
> >>> and no financial gain until we need to.
> >>>
> >>> Right now there is a negative benefit for deploying IPv6 (overhead,
> >>> management, no ROI, can't bill customers for static IPs).
> >>>
> >>> We have a plan, but until it's needed we don't plan to roll  it out.
> >>> IPv4 will be here for many years to come.
> >>>
> >>> On 10/23/19 8:54 AM, dave via AF wrote:
> >>>  >
> >>>  > Yeah.. No..
> >>>  > They are more up to date than you think just not ahead
> >>>  >
> >>>  > On 10/21/19 2:20 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
> >>>  >> yeah, no.
> >>>  >> .gov agencies still run dos
> >>>  >> 10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized enough
> to
> >>>  >> shut down ip4 access
> >>>  >>
> >>>  >>
> >>>  >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12 PM Dennis Burgess via AF <
> af@af.afmug.com
> >>>  >> > wrote:
> >>>  >>
> >>>  >> Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4 years, if
> the
> >>>  >> .govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons.  No more
> FCC/
> >>>  >> IRS or any .GOV unless over v6.  Note that the current plan is
> 2-3
> >>>  >> years, I have given it an extra year for measure!
> >>>  >>
> >>>  >> V6 should be deployed NOW.   Not later, when you HAVE TO.  Then
> >>>  >> you will be making mistakes etc.
> >>>  >>
> >>>  >> *LTI-Full_175px*
> >>>  >>
> >>>  >> *Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
> >>>  >> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage,
> Cambium
> >>>  >> ePMP Certified *
> >>>  >>
> >>>  >> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
> >>>  >>
> >>>  >> *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
> >>>  >>
> >>>  >> *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
> >>>  >> 
> >>>  >>
> >>>  >> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
> >>>  >> 
> >>>  >>
> >>>  >> *From:* AF  >>>  >> 

Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Cassidy B. Larson]

But IPv6 is faster! lol

https://www.retevia.net/fast/ 




-- 

Cassidy B. Larson
CTO - InfoWest, Inc.
Voice: 435-773-6073
c...@infowest.com



> On Oct 23, 2019, at 11:42 AM, Matt Hoppes  
> wrote:
> 
> Agreed. But just because 2/3 of the traffic goes that way doesn’t mean I gain 
> anything from it. 
> 
> And as long as the fax machine is downloading images as quickly as the mobile 
> phone. Does it matter?
> 
>> On Oct 23, 2019, at 12:19 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>> 
>> Matt, that's a strawman.  Nobody in this thread has argued that IPv4 isn't 
>> alive or in demand.
>> 
>> However, if you did implement dual stack I think you'd find that 2/3's of 
>> your traffic (by volume) will run on IPv6.  IPv6 was created 20 years ago.  
>> It's not new or "beta".  Adoption has been slow for all the reasons you 
>> stated about costs vs benefits, but IPv4 depletion is pushing this issue 
>> over the hump.
>> 
>> If you're able to get what you need and you're happy with the prices then 
>> nobody's going to make you change, but eventually you're going to get odd 
>> looks like the old guy who won't give up his fax machine.
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10/23/2019 11:58 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>>> Prices for IPv4 on the secondary market continue to rise... that doesn't 
>>> sound like a commodity that's on its way out.. that sounds like something 
>>> that's very much alive and in demand.
>>> 
 On 10/23/19 11:54 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
 Not a penny wise, but definitely a pound foolish.
 
 
 
 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions 
 
  
 Midwest Internet Exchange 
 
  
 The Brothers WISP 
 
 
 
 
 
 *From: *"Matt Hoppes" 
 *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
 *Sent: *Wednesday, October 23, 2019 8:01:22 AM
 *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space
 
 FUD ALERT!  FUD ALERT!   IPv4 is not going away any time soon, it's not
 practical. There are too many things that rely on IPv4.  And until
 I can run only one stack I'm not planning to mass deploy IPv6. We have
 an IPv6 deployment plan, but there is minimal benefit in dual stacking
 and no financial gain until we need to.
 
 Right now there is a negative benefit for deploying IPv6 (overhead,
 management, no ROI, can't bill customers for static IPs).
 
 We have a plan, but until it's needed we don't plan to roll  it out.
 IPv4 will be here for many years to come.
 
 On 10/23/19 8:54 AM, dave via AF wrote:
> 
> Yeah.. No..
> They are more up to date than you think just not ahead
> 
> On 10/21/19 2:20 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
>> yeah, no.
>> .gov agencies still run dos
>> 10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized enough to
>> shut down ip4 access
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12 PM Dennis Burgess via AF > > wrote:
>> 
>>Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4 years, if the
>>.govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons.  No more FCC/
>>IRS or any .GOV unless over v6.  Note that the current plan is 2-3
>>years, I have given it an extra year for measure!
>> 
>>V6 should be deployed NOW.   Not later, when you HAVE TO.  Then
>>you will be making mistakes etc.
>> 
>>*LTI-Full_175px*
>> 
>>*Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
>>MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium
>>ePMP Certified *
>> 
>>Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
>> 
>>*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
>> 
>>*Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
>>
>> 
>>Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
>>
>> 
>>*From:* AF >> *On Behalf Of * Steve Jones
>>*Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 2:07 PM
>>*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >>
>>*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space
>> 
>>NAT problems with BGP are why we are looking for more IP space
>> 
>>IP6 is still years out for us
>> 
>>On Mon, Oct 21, 

Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Matt Hoppes]

Agreed. But just because 2/3 of the traffic goes that way doesn’t mean I gain 
anything from it. 

And as long as the fax machine is downloading images as quickly as the mobile 
phone. Does it matter?

> On Oct 23, 2019, at 12:19 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
> 
> Matt, that's a strawman.  Nobody in this thread has argued that IPv4 isn't 
> alive or in demand.
> 
> However, if you did implement dual stack I think you'd find that 2/3's of 
> your traffic (by volume) will run on IPv6.  IPv6 was created 20 years ago.  
> It's not new or "beta".  Adoption has been slow for all the reasons you 
> stated about costs vs benefits, but IPv4 depletion is pushing this issue over 
> the hump.
> 
> If you're able to get what you need and you're happy with the prices then 
> nobody's going to make you change, but eventually you're going to get odd 
> looks like the old guy who won't give up his fax machine.
> 
> 
>> On 10/23/2019 11:58 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>> Prices for IPv4 on the secondary market continue to rise... that doesn't 
>> sound like a commodity that's on its way out.. that sounds like something 
>> that's very much alive and in demand.
>> 
>>> On 10/23/19 11:54 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
>>> Not a penny wise, but definitely a pound foolish.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> The Brothers WISP 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> *From: *"Matt Hoppes" 
>>> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>>> *Sent: *Wednesday, October 23, 2019 8:01:22 AM
>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space
>>> 
>>> FUD ALERT!  FUD ALERT!   IPv4 is not going away any time soon, it's not
>>> practical. There are too many things that rely on IPv4.  And until
>>> I can run only one stack I'm not planning to mass deploy IPv6. We have
>>> an IPv6 deployment plan, but there is minimal benefit in dual stacking
>>> and no financial gain until we need to.
>>> 
>>> Right now there is a negative benefit for deploying IPv6 (overhead,
>>> management, no ROI, can't bill customers for static IPs).
>>> 
>>> We have a plan, but until it's needed we don't plan to roll  it out.
>>> IPv4 will be here for many years to come.
>>> 
>>> On 10/23/19 8:54 AM, dave via AF wrote:
>>>  >
>>>  > Yeah.. No..
>>>  > They are more up to date than you think just not ahead
>>>  >
>>>  > On 10/21/19 2:20 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
>>>  >> yeah, no.
>>>  >> .gov agencies still run dos
>>>  >> 10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized enough to
>>>  >> shut down ip4 access
>>>  >>
>>>  >>
>>>  >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12 PM Dennis Burgess via AF >>  >> > wrote:
>>>  >>
>>>  >> Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4 years, if the
>>>  >> .govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons.  No more FCC/
>>>  >> IRS or any .GOV unless over v6.  Note that the current plan is 2-3
>>>  >> years, I have given it an extra year for measure!
>>>  >>
>>>  >> V6 should be deployed NOW.   Not later, when you HAVE TO.  Then
>>>  >> you will be making mistakes etc.
>>>  >>
>>>  >> *LTI-Full_175px*
>>>  >>
>>>  >> *Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
>>>  >> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium
>>>  >> ePMP Certified *
>>>  >>
>>>  >> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
>>>  >>
>>>  >> *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
>>>  >>
>>>  >> *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
>>>  >> 
>>>  >>
>>>  >> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
>>>  >> 
>>>  >>
>>>  >> *From:* AF >>  >> > *On Behalf Of * Steve Jones
>>>  >> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 2:07 PM
>>>  >> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >>  >> >
>>>  >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space
>>>  >>
>>>  >> NAT problems with BGP are why we are looking for more IP space
>>>  >>
>>>  >> IP6 is still years out for us
>>>  >>
>>>  >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:43 PM Adam Moffett >>  >> > wrote:
>>>  >>
>>>  >> If you're not doing it already, start thinking about dual
>>>  >> stack with IPv4 CGN and IPv6 public IPs. There's a learning
>>>  >> 

Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Adam Moffett]

Matt, that's a strawman.  Nobody in this thread has argued that IPv4 
isn't alive or in demand.


However, if you did implement dual stack I think you'd find that 2/3's 
of your traffic (by volume) will run on IPv6.  IPv6 was created 20 years 
ago.  It's not new or "beta".  Adoption has been slow for all the 
reasons you stated about costs vs benefits, but IPv4 depletion is 
pushing this issue over the hump.


If you're able to get what you need and you're happy with the prices 
then nobody's going to make you change, but eventually you're going to 
get odd looks like the old guy who won't give up his fax machine.



On 10/23/2019 11:58 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
Prices for IPv4 on the secondary market continue to rise... that 
doesn't sound like a commodity that's on its way out.. that sounds 
like something that's very much alive and in demand.


On 10/23/19 11:54 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

Not a penny wise, but definitely a pound foolish.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
 


Midwest Internet Exchange 
 


The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Matt Hoppes" 
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Sent: *Wednesday, October 23, 2019 8:01:22 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

FUD ALERT!  FUD ALERT!   IPv4 is not going away any time soon, it's not
practical.     There are too many things that rely on IPv4.  And until
I can run only one stack I'm not planning to mass deploy IPv6. We have
an IPv6 deployment plan, but there is minimal benefit in dual stacking
and no financial gain until we need to.

Right now there is a negative benefit for deploying IPv6 (overhead,
management, no ROI, can't bill customers for static IPs).

We have a plan, but until it's needed we don't plan to roll  it out.
IPv4 will be here for many years to come.

On 10/23/19 8:54 AM, dave via AF wrote:
 >
 > Yeah.. No..
 > They are more up to date than you think just not ahead
 >
 > On 10/21/19 2:20 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
 >> yeah, no.
 >> .gov agencies still run dos
 >> 10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized 
enough to

 >> shut down ip4 access
 >>
 >>
 >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12 PM Dennis Burgess via AF 

 >> > wrote:
 >>
 >>     Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4 years, if 
the

 >>     .govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons.  No more FCC/
 >>     IRS or any .GOV unless over v6.  Note that the current plan 
is 2-3

 >>     years, I have given it an extra year for measure!
 >>
 >>     V6 should be deployed NOW.   Not later, when you HAVE TO.  Then
 >>     you will be making mistakes etc.
 >>
 >>     *LTI-Full_175px*
 >>
 >>     *Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
 >>     MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, 
Cambium

 >>     ePMP Certified *
 >>
 >>     Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
 >>
 >>     *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
 >>
 >>     *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
 >>     
 >>
 >>     Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
 >>     
 >>
 >>     *From:* AF >     > *On Behalf Of * Steve Jones
 >>     *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 2:07 PM
 >>     *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >     >
 >>     *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space
 >>
 >>     NAT problems with BGP are why we are looking for more IP space
 >>
 >>     IP6 is still years out for us
 >>
 >>     On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:43 PM Adam Moffett 

 >>     > wrote:
 >>
 >>         If you're not doing it already, start thinking about dual
 >>         stack with IPv4 CGN and IPv6 public IPs. There's a learning
 >>         curve, but it's not that bad.
 >>
 >>         -Adam
 >>
 >>         On 10/21/2019 12:51 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
 >>
 >>             Where is the best place to get these? How do we verify
 >>             space has a decent reputation so we dont go through 
months

 >>             of cleanup and all that stuff?
 >>
 >>         --
 >>         AF mailing list
 >>         AF@af.afmug.com 
 >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
 >>
 >>     --
 >>     AF mailing list
 >>     AF@af.afmug.com 
 >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
 >>
 >>
 >
 >

--
AF mailing list

Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Adam Moffett]

+1

On 10/23/2019 12:18 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

IPv6 seems like religion and politics, discussion doesn't seem to accomplish 
much.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 10:59 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group ; Mike Hammett 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

Prices for IPv4 on the secondary market continue to rise... that doesn't sound 
like a commodity that's on its way out.. that sounds like something that's very 
much alive and in demand.

On 10/23/19 11:54 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

Not a penny wise, but definitely a pound foolish.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




--
--
*From: *"Matt Hoppes" 
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Sent: *Wednesday, October 23, 2019 8:01:22 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

FUD ALERT!  FUD ALERT!   IPv4 is not going away any time soon, it's
not practical. There are too many things that rely on IPv4.And
until I can run only one stack I'm not planning to mass deploy IPv6.
We have an IPv6 deployment plan, but there is minimal benefit in dual
stacking and no financial gain until we need to.

Right now there is a negative benefit for deploying IPv6 (overhead,
management, no ROI, can't bill customers for static IPs).

We have a plan, but until it's needed we don't plan to roll  it out.
IPv4 will be here for many years to come.

On 10/23/19 8:54 AM, dave via AF wrote:
  >
  > Yeah.. No..
  > They are more up to date than you think just not ahead  >  > On
10/21/19 2:20 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
  >> yeah, no.
  >> .gov agencies still run dos
  >> 10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized enough
to  >> shut down ip4 access  >>  >>  >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12
PM Dennis Burgess via AF >
> wrote:
  >>
  >> Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4 years, if
the  >> .govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons.  No
more FCC/  >> IRS or any .GOV unless over v6.  Note that the
current plan is 2-3  >> years, I have given it an extra year for measure!
  >>
  >> V6 should be deployed NOW.   Not later, when you HAVE TO.
Then  >> you will be making mistakes etc.
  >>
  >> *LTI-Full_175px*
  >>
  >> *Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer  >> MTCNA,
MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium  >>
ePMP Certified *  >>  >> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second
Edition”
  >>
  >> *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services

  >> *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
   >>  >> Create Wireless

Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com  >>
  >>  >> *From:* AF
> > *On
Behalf Of * Steve Jones  >> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 2:07
PM  >> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >
>  >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP
space  >>  >> NAT problems with BGP are why we are looking for
more IP space  >>  >> IP6 is still years out for us  >>  >> On
Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:43 PM Adam Moffett >
> wrote:
  >>
  >> If you're not doing it already, start thinking about dual

 stack with IPv4 CGN and IPv6 public IPs.  There's a

learning  >> curve, but it's not that bad.
  >>
  >> -Adam
  >>
  >> On 10/21/2019 12:51 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
  >>
  >> Where is the best place to get these? How do we verify

 space has a decent reputation so we dont go through

months  >> of cleanup and all that stuff?
  >>
  >> --
  >> AF mailing list
  >> AF@af.afmug.com   >>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
  >>
  >> --
  >> AF mailing list
  >> AF@af.afmug.com   >>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
  >>
  >>
  >
  >

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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com





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Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Ken Hohhof]

IPv6 seems like religion and politics, discussion doesn't seem to accomplish 
much.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 10:59 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group ; Mike Hammett 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

Prices for IPv4 on the secondary market continue to rise... that doesn't sound 
like a commodity that's on its way out.. that sounds like something that's very 
much alive and in demand.

On 10/23/19 11:54 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
> Not a penny wise, but definitely a pound foolish.
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions  
>  omputingSolutionsDeKalb> computing-solutions>
> Midwest Internet Exchange  
>  idwest-internet-exchange>
> The Brothers WISP  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> --
> *From: *"Matt Hoppes" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Wednesday, October 23, 2019 8:01:22 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space
> 
> FUD ALERT!  FUD ALERT!   IPv4 is not going away any time soon, it's 
> not practical. There are too many things that rely on IPv4.And 
> until I can run only one stack I'm not planning to mass deploy IPv6.   
> We have an IPv6 deployment plan, but there is minimal benefit in dual 
> stacking and no financial gain until we need to.
> 
> Right now there is a negative benefit for deploying IPv6 (overhead, 
> management, no ROI, can't bill customers for static IPs).
> 
> We have a plan, but until it's needed we don't plan to roll  it out.
> IPv4 will be here for many years to come.
> 
> On 10/23/19 8:54 AM, dave via AF wrote:
>  >
>  > Yeah.. No..
>  > They are more up to date than you think just not ahead  >  > On 
> 10/21/19 2:20 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
>  >> yeah, no.
>  >> .gov agencies still run dos
>  >> 10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized enough 
> to  >> shut down ip4 access  >>  >>  >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12 
> PM Dennis Burgess via AF > 
> > wrote:
>  >>
>  >> Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4 years, if 
> the  >> .govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons.  No 
> more FCC/  >> IRS or any .GOV unless over v6.  Note that the 
> current plan is 2-3  >> years, I have given it an extra year for measure!
>  >>
>  >> V6 should be deployed NOW.   Not later, when you HAVE TO.  
> Then  >> you will be making mistakes etc.
>  >>
>  >> *LTI-Full_175px*
>  >>
>  >> *Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer  >> MTCNA, 
> MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium  >> 
> ePMP Certified *  >>  >> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second 
> Edition”
>  >>
>  >> *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services  
> >>  >> *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net  
> >>   >>  >> Create Wireless 
> Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com  >> 
>   >>  >> *From:* AF 
> > > *On 
> Behalf Of * Steve Jones  >> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 2:07 
> PM  >> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > 
> >  >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP 
> space  >>  >> NAT problems with BGP are why we are looking for 
> more IP space  >>  >> IP6 is still years out for us  >>  >> On 
> Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:43 PM Adam Moffett > 
> > wrote:
>  >>
>  >> If you're not doing it already, start thinking about dual  
> >> stack with IPv4 CGN and IPv6 public IPs.  There's a 
> learning  >> curve, but it's not that bad.
>  >>
>  >> -Adam
>  >>
>  >> On 10/21/2019 12:51 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
>  >>
>  >> Where is the best place to get these? How do we verify  
> >> space has a decent reputation so we dont go through 
> months  >> of cleanup and all that stuff?
>  >>
>  >> --
>  >> AF mailing list
>  >> AF@af.afmug.com   >> 
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>  >>
>  >> --
>  >> AF mailing list
>  >> AF@af.afmug.com   >> 
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>  >>
>  >>
>  >
>  >
> 
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> 
> 

--
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AF@af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Matt Hoppes]

Prices for IPv4 on the secondary market continue to rise... that doesn't 
sound like a commodity that's on its way out.. that sounds like 
something that's very much alive and in demand.


On 10/23/19 11:54 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

Not a penny wise, but definitely a pound foolish.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Matt Hoppes" 
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Sent: *Wednesday, October 23, 2019 8:01:22 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

FUD ALERT!  FUD ALERT!   IPv4 is not going away any time soon, it's not
practical.     There are too many things that rely on IPv4.    And until
I can run only one stack I'm not planning to mass deploy IPv6.   We have
an IPv6 deployment plan, but there is minimal benefit in dual stacking
and no financial gain until we need to.

Right now there is a negative benefit for deploying IPv6 (overhead,
management, no ROI, can't bill customers for static IPs).

We have a plan, but until it's needed we don't plan to roll  it out.
IPv4 will be here for many years to come.

On 10/23/19 8:54 AM, dave via AF wrote:
 >
 > Yeah.. No..
 > They are more up to date than you think just not ahead
 >
 > On 10/21/19 2:20 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
 >> yeah, no.
 >> .gov agencies still run dos
 >> 10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized enough to
 >> shut down ip4 access
 >>
 >>
 >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12 PM Dennis Burgess via AF > > wrote:
 >>
 >>     Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4 years, if the
 >>     .govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons.  No more FCC/
 >>     IRS or any .GOV unless over v6.  Note that the current plan is 2-3
 >>     years, I have given it an extra year for measure!
 >>
 >>     V6 should be deployed NOW.   Not later, when you HAVE TO.  Then
 >>     you will be making mistakes etc.
 >>
 >>     *LTI-Full_175px*
 >>
 >>     *Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
 >>     MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium
 >>     ePMP Certified *
 >>
 >>     Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
 >>
 >>     *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
 >>
 >>     *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
 >>     
 >>
 >>     Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
 >>     
 >>
 >>     *From:* AF >     > *On Behalf Of * Steve Jones
 >>     *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 2:07 PM
 >>     *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >     >
 >>     *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space
 >>
 >>     NAT problems with BGP are why we are looking for more IP space
 >>
 >>     IP6 is still years out for us
 >>
 >>     On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:43 PM Adam Moffett >     > wrote:
 >>
 >>         If you're not doing it already, start thinking about dual
 >>         stack with IPv4 CGN and IPv6 public IPs.  There's a learning
 >>         curve, but it's not that bad.
 >>
 >>         -Adam
 >>
 >>         On 10/21/2019 12:51 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
 >>
 >>             Where is the best place to get these? How do we verify
 >>             space has a decent reputation so we dont go through months
 >>             of cleanup and all that stuff?
 >>
 >>         --
 >>         AF mailing list
 >>         AF@af.afmug.com 
 >>         http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
 >>
 >>     --
 >>     AF mailing list
 >>     AF@af.afmug.com 
 >>     http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
 >>
 >>
 >
 >

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Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Mike Hammett]

Not a penny wise, but definitely a pound foolish. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Matt Hoppes"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 8:01:22 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space 

FUD ALERT! FUD ALERT! IPv4 is not going away any time soon, it's not 
practical. There are too many things that rely on IPv4. And until 
I can run only one stack I'm not planning to mass deploy IPv6. We have 
an IPv6 deployment plan, but there is minimal benefit in dual stacking 
and no financial gain until we need to. 

Right now there is a negative benefit for deploying IPv6 (overhead, 
management, no ROI, can't bill customers for static IPs). 

We have a plan, but until it's needed we don't plan to roll it out. 
IPv4 will be here for many years to come. 

On 10/23/19 8:54 AM, dave via AF wrote: 
> 
> Yeah.. No.. 
> They are more up to date than you think just not ahead 
> 
> On 10/21/19 2:20 PM, Steve Jones wrote: 
>> yeah, no. 
>> .gov agencies still run dos 
>> 10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized enough to 
>> shut down ip4 access 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12 PM Dennis Burgess via AF > > wrote: 
>> 
>> Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4 years, if the 
>> .govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons. No more FCC/ 
>> IRS or any .GOV unless over v6. Note that the current plan is 2-3 
>> years, I have given it an extra year for measure! 
>> 
>> V6 should be deployed NOW. Not later, when you HAVE TO. Then 
>> you will be making mistakes etc. 
>> 
>> *LTI-Full_175px* 
>> 
>> *Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer 
>> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium 
>> ePMP Certified * 
>> 
>> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition” 
>> 
>> *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services 
>> 
>> *Office*: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net 
>>  
>> 
>> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com 
>>  
>> 
>> *From:* AF > > *On Behalf Of * Steve Jones 
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 2:07 PM 
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > > 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space 
>> 
>> NAT problems with BGP are why we are looking for more IP space 
>> 
>> IP6 is still years out for us 
>> 
>> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:43 PM Adam Moffett > > wrote: 
>> 
>> If you're not doing it already, start thinking about dual 
>> stack with IPv4 CGN and IPv6 public IPs. There's a learning 
>> curve, but it's not that bad. 
>> 
>> -Adam 
>> 
>> On 10/21/2019 12:51 PM, Steve Jones wrote: 
>> 
>> Where is the best place to get these? How do we verify 
>> space has a decent reputation so we dont go through months 
>> of cleanup and all that stuff? 
>> 
>> -- 
>> AF mailing list 
>> AF@af.afmug.com  
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
>> 
>> -- 
>> AF mailing list 
>> AF@af.afmug.com  
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

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AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Adam Moffett]

What tools are missing?

On 10/23/2019 11:46 AM, Robert wrote:
Operating part of that sentence, *not going anywhere*   ipv6 still 
hasn't crossed the bridge.   You will be able to tell with ipv4 
address space begins to _decrease_ in price instead of increasing.  
Probably will be a cliff function.  Until then you are doing a lot of 
work and getting a little return.   Each month ipv6 gets more tools, 
but the kit still isn't all there. IMNSHO...


On 10/23/19 8:41 AM, Zach Underwood wrote:
Matt everytime I see your name doing anything with ipv6 I cringe, get 
your head out of the sand and learn something about ipv6. The longer 
you keep at this hating on ipv6 the stupider you look. ipv6 has been 
around for a while and is not going anywhere.


On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 11:29 AM Matt Hoppes 
> wrote:


This is true, but that's why you acquire other ISPs, purchase
IPv4 on
the auction block, etc.    And once that runs out, CGNAT is
really not
all that complicated or expensive to deploy compared to
deploying
IPv6 which is still very much a "beta" protocol.

There are client devices that are broken and don't properly
handle IPv6,
there is confusion and argument over how best to deploy IPv6, large
sections of the Internet still don't support IPv6, the the way
IPv6 was
designed and implemented screams of "Engineers" vs "Usability".

On 10/23/19 11:25 AM, dave wrote:
> Meh, good luck with that LOL.. We'll be seeing you on the other
side
> Its not that ipv4 is going away at all its that you can just
walk into
> the arin store and purchase large public block for your use for
much longer.
> IPV6 is plentiful and a green pasture of natural selection.
>
>
>
> On 10/23/19 8:01 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>> FUD ALERT!  FUD ALERT!   IPv4 is not going away any time soon,
it's
>> not practical. There are too many things that rely on
IPv4. And
>> until I can run only one stack I'm not planning to mass deploy
IPv6.
>> We have an IPv6 deployment plan, but there is minimal benefit
in dual
>> stacking and no financial gain until we need to.
>>
>> Right now there is a negative benefit for deploying IPv6
(overhead,
>> management, no ROI, can't bill customers for static IPs).
>>
>> We have a plan, but until it's needed we don't plan to roll 
it out.
>> IPv4 will be here for many years to come.
>>
>> On 10/23/19 8:54 AM, dave via AF wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeah.. No..
>>> They are more up to date than you think just not ahead
>>>
>>> On 10/21/19 2:20 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
 yeah, no.
 .gov agencies still run dos
 10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized
enough
 to shut down ip4 access


 On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12 PM Dennis Burgess via AF
 mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
>> wrote:

     Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4
years, if the
     .govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons.  No
more FCC/
     IRS or any .GOV unless over v6.  Note that the current
plan is 2-3
     years, I have given it an extra year for measure!

     V6 should be deployed NOW.   Not later, when you HAVE
TO. Then
     you will be making mistakes etc.

     *LTI-Full_175px*

     *Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
     MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6
Sage, Cambium
     ePMP Certified *

     Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”

     *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services

     *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
 

     Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com

 

     *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>
 >> *On Behalf Of * Steve Jones
     *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 2:07 PM
     *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
 >>
     *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

     NAT problems with BGP are why we are looking for more IP
space

     IP6 is still years out for us

     On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:43 PM Adam Moffett
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>
 >>
wrote:

     If you're not doing it already, start thinking about
dual
   

Re: [AFMUG] 450SMs

[Adam Moffett]

I'm ok with the cuteness factor of the 450b.  I just think they should 
offer a full 2 footer also.  Yeah the 450i + a dish + jumpers has got to 
be $700-$800.


I wonder if it's the same marketing error as New Coke.  In testing 2/3's 
of customers preferred the new formula.  Fuck the other 1/3, they don't 
matter.


-Adam



On 10/23/2019 11:43 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


They are discontinued, Cambium stopped making them around the 
beginning of the year.  As far as being a better 22 than the 25, 
that’s “fake news”.  Actually I would have to check the spec sheet but 
I thought they were claiming 23 or 24 dBi.


It seems to be part of a strategy of sharing designs with ePMP but 
charging more.


Customers do seem to like the aesthetics of the 450b dish.  Swapping 
for left-of-pole mounting is a giant pain, especially after you’ve 
attached the radome.  And installers complain about not being able to 
see the lights. What’s strange is we still use reflector dishes for 
the 3 GHz SMs.


FWIW, we have solved performance issues with the 450b high gain by 
swapping in a connectorized SM and one of the KP 2 ft Proline dishes, 
but that’s a big and godawful expensive solution.  Strangely the 
performance increases more than you’d expect from the signal level 
alone, maybe some kind of sidelobe issue?


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2019 10:23 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 450SMs

i was told theyre not discontinued, just not favored and then 
something about the 22 vs 25 being a better 22 than the 25 or 
something for geeks


On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 10:04 AM Adam Moffett > wrote:


Okay I haven't paid a lot of attention to PMP450 since I've been in a
Telrad shop for a few years.  It looks like the old style SM was
discontinued.

The Old SM + Reflector was said to have 25dbi of gain.

The replacement 450b "high gain" integrated dish is 22dbi.

Are you kidding me?  Cambium, why you takin' my db's away bro?



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AF@af.afmug.com 
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AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Robert]

Operating part of that sentence, *not going anywhere*   ipv6 still 
hasn't crossed the bridge.   You will be able to tell with ipv4 address 
space begins to _decrease_ in price instead of increasing.  Probably 
will be a cliff function.  Until then you are doing a lot of work and 
getting a little return.   Each month ipv6 gets more tools, but the kit 
still isn't all there. IMNSHO...


On 10/23/19 8:41 AM, Zach Underwood wrote:
Matt everytime I see your name doing anything with ipv6 I cringe, get 
your head out of the sand and learn something about ipv6. The longer 
you keep at this hating on ipv6 the stupider you look. ipv6 has been 
around for a while and is not going anywhere.


On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 11:29 AM Matt Hoppes 
> wrote:


This is true, but that's why you acquire other ISPs, purchase IPv4 on
the auction block, etc.    And once that runs out, CGNAT is really
not
all that complicated or expensive to deploy compared to deploying
IPv6 which is still very much a "beta" protocol.

There are client devices that are broken and don't properly handle
IPv6,
there is confusion and argument over how best to deploy IPv6, large
sections of the Internet still don't support IPv6, the the way
IPv6 was
designed and implemented screams of "Engineers" vs "Usability".

On 10/23/19 11:25 AM, dave wrote:
> Meh, good luck with that LOL.. We'll be seeing you on the other side
> Its not that ipv4 is going away at all its that you can just
walk into
> the arin store and purchase large public block for your use for
much longer.
> IPV6 is plentiful and a green pasture of natural selection.
>
>
>
> On 10/23/19 8:01 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>> FUD ALERT!  FUD ALERT!   IPv4 is not going away any time soon,
it's
>> not practical. There are too many things that rely on IPv4.
And
>> until I can run only one stack I'm not planning to mass deploy
IPv6.
>> We have an IPv6 deployment plan, but there is minimal benefit
in dual
>> stacking and no financial gain until we need to.
>>
>> Right now there is a negative benefit for deploying IPv6
(overhead,
>> management, no ROI, can't bill customers for static IPs).
>>
>> We have a plan, but until it's needed we don't plan to roll  it
out.
>> IPv4 will be here for many years to come.
>>
>> On 10/23/19 8:54 AM, dave via AF wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeah.. No..
>>> They are more up to date than you think just not ahead
>>>
>>> On 10/21/19 2:20 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
 yeah, no.
 .gov agencies still run dos
 10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized
enough
 to shut down ip4 access


 On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12 PM Dennis Burgess via AF
 mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
>> wrote:

     Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4
years, if the
     .govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons.  No
more FCC/
     IRS or any .GOV unless over v6.  Note that the current
plan is 2-3
     years, I have given it an extra year for measure!

     V6 should be deployed NOW.   Not later, when you HAVE TO.
Then
     you will be making mistakes etc.

     *LTI-Full_175px*

     *Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
     MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage,
Cambium
     ePMP Certified *

     Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”

     *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services

     *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
 

     Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com

 

     *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>
 >> *On Behalf Of * Steve Jones
     *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 2:07 PM
     *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
 >>
     *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

     NAT problems with BGP are why we are looking for more IP
space

     IP6 is still years out for us

     On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:43 PM Adam Moffett
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>
 >> wrote:

     If you're not doing it already, start thinking about dual
     stack with IPv4 CGN and IPv6 public IPs.  There's a
learning
     

Re: [AFMUG] 450SMs

[Ken Hohhof]

They are discontinued, Cambium stopped making them around the beginning of the 
year.  As far as being a better 22 than the 25, that’s “fake news”.  Actually I 
would have to check the spec sheet but I thought they were claiming 23 or 24 
dBi.

 

It seems to be part of a strategy of sharing designs with ePMP but charging 
more.

 

Customers do seem to like the aesthetics of the 450b dish.  Swapping for 
left-of-pole mounting is a giant pain, especially after you’ve attached the 
radome.  And installers complain about not being able to see the lights.  
What’s strange is we still use reflector dishes for the 3 GHz SMs.

 

FWIW, we have solved performance issues with the 450b high gain by swapping in 
a connectorized SM and one of the KP 2 ft Proline dishes, but that’s a big and 
godawful expensive solution.  Strangely the performance increases more than 
you’d expect from the signal level alone, maybe some kind of sidelobe issue?

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 10:23 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 450SMs

 

i was told theyre not discontinued, just not favored and then something about 
the 22 vs 25 being a better 22 than the 25 or something for geeks

 

 

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 10:04 AM Adam Moffett mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Okay I haven't paid a lot of attention to PMP450 since I've been in a 
Telrad shop for a few years.  It looks like the old style SM was 
discontinued.

The Old SM + Reflector was said to have 25dbi of gain.

The replacement 450b "high gain" integrated dish is 22dbi.

Are you kidding me?  Cambium, why you takin' my db's away bro?



-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com  
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Matt Hoppes]

I mean.. that's fine... but while you guys are figuring out IPv6, I'm 
busy invoicing my clients for static IPv4 addresses


Who's making money and who's losing money?

On 10/23/19 11:41 AM, Zach Underwood wrote:
Matt everytime I see your name doing anything with ipv6 I cringe, get 
your head out of the sand and learn something about ipv6. The longer you 
keep at this hating on ipv6 the stupider you look. ipv6 has been around 
for a while and is not going anywhere.


On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 11:29 AM Matt Hoppes 
> wrote:


This is true, but that's why you acquire other ISPs, purchase IPv4 on
the auction block, etc.    And once that runs out, CGNAT is really not
all that complicated or expensive to deploy compared to deploying
IPv6 which is still very much a "beta" protocol.

There are client devices that are broken and don't properly handle
IPv6,
there is confusion and argument over how best to deploy IPv6, large
sections of the Internet still don't support IPv6, the the way IPv6 was
designed and implemented screams of "Engineers" vs "Usability".

On 10/23/19 11:25 AM, dave wrote:
 > Meh, good luck with that LOL.. We'll be seeing you on the other side
 > Its not that ipv4 is going away at all its that you can just walk
into
 > the arin store and purchase large public block for your use for
much longer.
 > IPV6 is plentiful and a green pasture of natural selection.
 >
 >
 >
 > On 10/23/19 8:01 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
 >> FUD ALERT!  FUD ALERT!   IPv4 is not going away any time soon, it's
 >> not practical. There are too many things that rely on IPv4. And
 >> until I can run only one stack I'm not planning to mass deploy
IPv6.
 >> We have an IPv6 deployment plan, but there is minimal benefit in
dual
 >> stacking and no financial gain until we need to.
 >>
 >> Right now there is a negative benefit for deploying IPv6 (overhead,
 >> management, no ROI, can't bill customers for static IPs).
 >>
 >> We have a plan, but until it's needed we don't plan to roll  it
out.
 >> IPv4 will be here for many years to come.
 >>
 >> On 10/23/19 8:54 AM, dave via AF wrote:
 >>>
 >>> Yeah.. No..
 >>> They are more up to date than you think just not ahead
 >>>
 >>> On 10/21/19 2:20 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
  yeah, no.
  .gov agencies still run dos
  10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized
enough
  to shut down ip4 access
 
 
  On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12 PM Dennis Burgess via AF
  mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
>> wrote:
 
      Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4 years,
if the
      .govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons.  No
more FCC/
      IRS or any .GOV unless over v6.  Note that the current
plan is 2-3
      years, I have given it an extra year for measure!
 
      V6 should be deployed NOW.   Not later, when you HAVE TO. Then
      you will be making mistakes etc.
 
      *LTI-Full_175px*
 
      *Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
      MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage,
Cambium
      ePMP Certified *
 
      Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
 
      *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
 
      *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
  
 
      Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com

  
 
      *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>
  >> *On Behalf Of * Steve Jones
      *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 2:07 PM
      *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
  >>
      *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space
 
      NAT problems with BGP are why we are looking for more IP space
 
      IP6 is still years out for us
 
      On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:43 PM Adam Moffett
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>
  >> wrote:
 
      If you're not doing it already, start thinking about dual
      stack with IPv4 CGN and IPv6 public IPs.  There's a
learning
      curve, but it's not that bad.
 
      -Adam
 
      On 10/21/2019 12:51 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
 
      

Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Zach Underwood]

Matt everytime I see your name doing anything with ipv6 I cringe, get your
head out of the sand and learn something about ipv6. The longer you keep at
this hating on ipv6 the stupider you look. ipv6 has been around for a while
and is not going anywhere.

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 11:29 AM Matt Hoppes <
mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:

> This is true, but that's why you acquire other ISPs, purchase IPv4 on
> the auction block, etc.And once that runs out, CGNAT is really not
> all that complicated or expensive to deploy compared to deploying
> IPv6 which is still very much a "beta" protocol.
>
> There are client devices that are broken and don't properly handle IPv6,
> there is confusion and argument over how best to deploy IPv6, large
> sections of the Internet still don't support IPv6, the the way IPv6 was
> designed and implemented screams of "Engineers" vs "Usability".
>
> On 10/23/19 11:25 AM, dave wrote:
> > Meh, good luck with that LOL.. We'll be seeing you on the other side
> > Its not that ipv4 is going away at all its that you can just walk into
> > the arin store and purchase large public block for your use for much
> longer.
> > IPV6 is plentiful and a green pasture of natural selection.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/23/19 8:01 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> >> FUD ALERT!  FUD ALERT!   IPv4 is not going away any time soon, it's
> >> not practical. There are too many things that rely on IPv4. And
> >> until I can run only one stack I'm not planning to mass deploy IPv6.
> >> We have an IPv6 deployment plan, but there is minimal benefit in dual
> >> stacking and no financial gain until we need to.
> >>
> >> Right now there is a negative benefit for deploying IPv6 (overhead,
> >> management, no ROI, can't bill customers for static IPs).
> >>
> >> We have a plan, but until it's needed we don't plan to roll  it out.
> >> IPv4 will be here for many years to come.
> >>
> >> On 10/23/19 8:54 AM, dave via AF wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Yeah.. No..
> >>> They are more up to date than you think just not ahead
> >>>
> >>> On 10/21/19 2:20 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
>  yeah, no.
>  .gov agencies still run dos
>  10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized enough
>  to shut down ip4 access
> 
> 
>  On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12 PM Dennis Burgess via AF
>  mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
> 
>  Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4 years, if the
>  .govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons.  No more FCC/
>  IRS or any .GOV unless over v6.  Note that the current plan is 2-3
>  years, I have given it an extra year for measure!
> 
>  V6 should be deployed NOW.   Not later, when you HAVE TO. Then
>  you will be making mistakes etc.
> 
>  *LTI-Full_175px*
> 
>  *Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
>  MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium
>  ePMP Certified *
> 
>  Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
> 
>  *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
> 
>  *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
>  
> 
>  Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
>  
> 
>  *From:* AF   > *On Behalf Of * Steve Jones
>  *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 2:07 PM
>  *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group   >
>  *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space
> 
>  NAT problems with BGP are why we are looking for more IP space
> 
>  IP6 is still years out for us
> 
>  On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:43 PM Adam Moffett   > wrote:
> 
>  If you're not doing it already, start thinking about dual
>  stack with IPv4 CGN and IPv6 public IPs.  There's a learning
>  curve, but it's not that bad.
> 
>  -Adam
> 
>  On 10/21/2019 12:51 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
> 
>  Where is the best place to get these? How do we verify
>  space has a decent reputation so we dont go through months
>  of cleanup and all that stuff?
> 
>  -- AF mailing list
>  AF@af.afmug.com 
>  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> 
>  -- AF mailing list
>  AF@af.afmug.com 
>  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> 
> 
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


-- 
Zach Underwood (RHCE,RHCSA,RHCT,UACA)
My website 
advance-networking.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Matt Hoppes]

You haven't offered enough :)  Everyone sells for the right price.  If 
someone walked in my door and offered me 2 million, I'd probably take 
it, pay off my employees well, go invest the rest of it, take a year 
off, and then go find a relaxing job somewhere to occupy my time and 
make a few extra bucks.


On 10/23/19 11:30 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

yall got any more of them ISPs? Nobody around here seems to want to sell

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 10:29 AM Matt Hoppes 
> wrote:


This is true, but that's why you acquire other ISPs, purchase IPv4 on
the auction block, etc.    And once that runs out, CGNAT is really not
all that complicated or expensive to deploy compared to deploying
IPv6 which is still very much a "beta" protocol.

There are client devices that are broken and don't properly handle
IPv6,
there is confusion and argument over how best to deploy IPv6, large
sections of the Internet still don't support IPv6, the the way IPv6 was
designed and implemented screams of "Engineers" vs "Usability".

On 10/23/19 11:25 AM, dave wrote:
 > Meh, good luck with that LOL.. We'll be seeing you on the other side
 > Its not that ipv4 is going away at all its that you can just walk
into
 > the arin store and purchase large public block for your use for
much longer.
 > IPV6 is plentiful and a green pasture of natural selection.
 >
 >
 >
 > On 10/23/19 8:01 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
 >> FUD ALERT!  FUD ALERT!   IPv4 is not going away any time soon, it's
 >> not practical. There are too many things that rely on IPv4. And
 >> until I can run only one stack I'm not planning to mass deploy
IPv6.
 >> We have an IPv6 deployment plan, but there is minimal benefit in
dual
 >> stacking and no financial gain until we need to.
 >>
 >> Right now there is a negative benefit for deploying IPv6 (overhead,
 >> management, no ROI, can't bill customers for static IPs).
 >>
 >> We have a plan, but until it's needed we don't plan to roll  it
out.
 >> IPv4 will be here for many years to come.
 >>
 >> On 10/23/19 8:54 AM, dave via AF wrote:
 >>>
 >>> Yeah.. No..
 >>> They are more up to date than you think just not ahead
 >>>
 >>> On 10/21/19 2:20 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
  yeah, no.
  .gov agencies still run dos
  10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized
enough
  to shut down ip4 access
 
 
  On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12 PM Dennis Burgess via AF
  mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
>> wrote:
 
      Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4 years,
if the
      .govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons.  No
more FCC/
      IRS or any .GOV unless over v6.  Note that the current
plan is 2-3
      years, I have given it an extra year for measure!
 
      V6 should be deployed NOW.   Not later, when you HAVE TO. Then
      you will be making mistakes etc.
 
      *LTI-Full_175px*
 
      *Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
      MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage,
Cambium
      ePMP Certified *
 
      Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
 
      *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
 
      *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
  
 
      Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com

  
 
      *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>
  >> *On Behalf Of * Steve Jones
      *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 2:07 PM
      *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
  >>
      *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space
 
      NAT problems with BGP are why we are looking for more IP space
 
      IP6 is still years out for us
 
      On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:43 PM Adam Moffett
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>
  >> wrote:
 
      If you're not doing it already, start thinking about dual
      stack with IPv4 CGN and IPv6 public IPs.  There's a
learning
      curve, but it's not that bad.
 
      -Adam
 
      On 10/21/2019 12:51 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
 
      Where is the best place to get these? How do we 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: What do Icon's Look Like

[Steve Jones]

common core math is what these young pup engineers cut their teeth on. they
know that and poop emojis

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 10:28 AM Nate Burke  wrote:

> So I was trying to explain to my Mother over the phone last night how to
> Rescan her TV after the channel changes last weekend.  The TV only has
> Icon's for choosing menu options, no Text.  What I'm describing as the
> Icon's she needs to click on, she can't find (A picture of a little
> antenna), and what She is describing the icons on the screen look like,
> I can't figure out what they are ("There's a G with a dot in it").  Why
> can't Icon's just look like what they're supposed to be?
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Steve Jones]

yall got any more of them ISPs? Nobody around here seems to want to sell

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 10:29 AM Matt Hoppes <
mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:

> This is true, but that's why you acquire other ISPs, purchase IPv4 on
> the auction block, etc.And once that runs out, CGNAT is really not
> all that complicated or expensive to deploy compared to deploying
> IPv6 which is still very much a "beta" protocol.
>
> There are client devices that are broken and don't properly handle IPv6,
> there is confusion and argument over how best to deploy IPv6, large
> sections of the Internet still don't support IPv6, the the way IPv6 was
> designed and implemented screams of "Engineers" vs "Usability".
>
> On 10/23/19 11:25 AM, dave wrote:
> > Meh, good luck with that LOL.. We'll be seeing you on the other side
> > Its not that ipv4 is going away at all its that you can just walk into
> > the arin store and purchase large public block for your use for much
> longer.
> > IPV6 is plentiful and a green pasture of natural selection.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/23/19 8:01 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> >> FUD ALERT!  FUD ALERT!   IPv4 is not going away any time soon, it's
> >> not practical. There are too many things that rely on IPv4. And
> >> until I can run only one stack I'm not planning to mass deploy IPv6.
> >> We have an IPv6 deployment plan, but there is minimal benefit in dual
> >> stacking and no financial gain until we need to.
> >>
> >> Right now there is a negative benefit for deploying IPv6 (overhead,
> >> management, no ROI, can't bill customers for static IPs).
> >>
> >> We have a plan, but until it's needed we don't plan to roll  it out.
> >> IPv4 will be here for many years to come.
> >>
> >> On 10/23/19 8:54 AM, dave via AF wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Yeah.. No..
> >>> They are more up to date than you think just not ahead
> >>>
> >>> On 10/21/19 2:20 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
>  yeah, no.
>  .gov agencies still run dos
>  10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized enough
>  to shut down ip4 access
> 
> 
>  On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12 PM Dennis Burgess via AF
>  mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
> 
>  Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4 years, if the
>  .govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons.  No more FCC/
>  IRS or any .GOV unless over v6.  Note that the current plan is 2-3
>  years, I have given it an extra year for measure!
> 
>  V6 should be deployed NOW.   Not later, when you HAVE TO. Then
>  you will be making mistakes etc.
> 
>  *LTI-Full_175px*
> 
>  *Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
>  MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium
>  ePMP Certified *
> 
>  Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
> 
>  *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
> 
>  *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
>  
> 
>  Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
>  
> 
>  *From:* AF   > *On Behalf Of * Steve Jones
>  *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 2:07 PM
>  *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group   >
>  *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space
> 
>  NAT problems with BGP are why we are looking for more IP space
> 
>  IP6 is still years out for us
> 
>  On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:43 PM Adam Moffett   > wrote:
> 
>  If you're not doing it already, start thinking about dual
>  stack with IPv4 CGN and IPv6 public IPs.  There's a learning
>  curve, but it's not that bad.
> 
>  -Adam
> 
>  On 10/21/2019 12:51 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
> 
>  Where is the best place to get these? How do we verify
>  space has a decent reputation so we dont go through months
>  of cleanup and all that stuff?
> 
>  -- AF mailing list
>  AF@af.afmug.com 
>  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> 
>  -- AF mailing list
>  AF@af.afmug.com 
>  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> 
> 
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] 450SMs

[Adam Moffett]

If the 22 is somehow better than the 25 then they should update 
LinkPlanner to show me that magic.



On 10/23/2019 11:22 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
i was told theyre not discontinued, just not favored and then 
something about the 22 vs 25 being a better 22 than the 25 or 
something for geeks



On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 10:04 AM Adam Moffett > wrote:


Okay I haven't paid a lot of attention to PMP450 since I've been in a
Telrad shop for a few years.  It looks like the old style SM was
discontinued.

The Old SM + Reflector was said to have 25dbi of gain.

The replacement 450b "high gain" integrated dish is 22dbi.

Are you kidding me?  Cambium, why you takin' my db's away bro?



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Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Matt Hoppes]

This is true, but that's why you acquire other ISPs, purchase IPv4 on 
the auction block, etc.And once that runs out, CGNAT is really not 
all that complicated or expensive to deploy compared to deploying 
IPv6 which is still very much a "beta" protocol.


There are client devices that are broken and don't properly handle IPv6, 
there is confusion and argument over how best to deploy IPv6, large 
sections of the Internet still don't support IPv6, the the way IPv6 was 
designed and implemented screams of "Engineers" vs "Usability".


On 10/23/19 11:25 AM, dave wrote:

Meh, good luck with that LOL.. We'll be seeing you on the other side
Its not that ipv4 is going away at all its that you can just walk into 
the arin store and purchase large public block for your use for much longer.

IPV6 is plentiful and a green pasture of natural selection.



On 10/23/19 8:01 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
FUD ALERT!  FUD ALERT!   IPv4 is not going away any time soon, it's 
not practical. There are too many things that rely on IPv4. And 
until I can run only one stack I'm not planning to mass deploy IPv6.   
We have an IPv6 deployment plan, but there is minimal benefit in dual 
stacking and no financial gain until we need to.


Right now there is a negative benefit for deploying IPv6 (overhead, 
management, no ROI, can't bill customers for static IPs).


We have a plan, but until it's needed we don't plan to roll  it out. 
IPv4 will be here for many years to come.


On 10/23/19 8:54 AM, dave via AF wrote:


Yeah.. No..
They are more up to date than you think just not ahead

On 10/21/19 2:20 PM, Steve Jones wrote:

yeah, no.
.gov agencies still run dos
10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized enough 
to shut down ip4 access



On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12 PM Dennis Burgess via AF 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:


    Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4 years, if the
    .govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons.  No more FCC/
    IRS or any .GOV unless over v6.  Note that the current plan is 2-3
    years, I have given it an extra year for measure!

    V6 should be deployed NOW.   Not later, when you HAVE TO. Then
    you will be making mistakes etc.

    *LTI-Full_175px*

    *Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
    MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium
    ePMP Certified *

    Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”

    *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services

    *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net


    Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com


    *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of * Steve Jones
    *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 2:07 PM
    *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

    NAT problems with BGP are why we are looking for more IP space

    IP6 is still years out for us

    On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:43 PM Adam Moffett mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

    If you're not doing it already, start thinking about dual
    stack with IPv4 CGN and IPv6 public IPs.  There's a learning
    curve, but it's not that bad.

    -Adam

    On 10/21/2019 12:51 PM, Steve Jones wrote:

    Where is the best place to get these? How do we verify
    space has a decent reputation so we dont go through months
    of cleanup and all that stuff?

    --     AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

    --     AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com 
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[AFMUG] OT: What do Icon's Look Like

[Nate Burke]

So I was trying to explain to my Mother over the phone last night how to 
Rescan her TV after the channel changes last weekend.  The TV only has 
Icon's for choosing menu options, no Text.  What I'm describing as the 
Icon's she needs to click on, she can't find (A picture of a little 
antenna), and what She is describing the icons on the screen look like, 
I can't figure out what they are ("There's a G with a dot in it").  Why 
can't Icon's just look like what they're supposed to be?




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Re: [AFMUG] 450SMs

[Steve Jones]

i was told theyre not discontinued, just not favored and then something
about the 22 vs 25 being a better 22 than the 25 or something for geeks


On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 10:04 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:

> Okay I haven't paid a lot of attention to PMP450 since I've been in a
> Telrad shop for a few years.  It looks like the old style SM was
> discontinued.
>
> The Old SM + Reflector was said to have 25dbi of gain.
>
> The replacement 450b "high gain" integrated dish is 22dbi.
>
> Are you kidding me?  Cambium, why you takin' my db's away bro?
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Cost effective Frequency Coordination ???

[Jaime Solorza]

I have used Liz Creekmore company...great service

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 8:59 AM Bill Prince  wrote:

> I think we got the best deal from Intelpath (AKA Liz Creekmore). Although
> other coordinators have gone down.
>
> Liz Creekmore
> Principal, Intelpath
> Email l...@intelpath.com
> Phone 312-841-9188
> Address 50 E 26th St
> Ste. 404
> Chicago, IL 60616
> 16 W 575 79th St., Ste 102
> Willowbrook, IL 60527
> Links www.intelpath.com
> Notes Frequency Coordinator
>
> bp
> 
>
>
> On 10/23/2019 5:13 AM, Paul McCall wrote:
>
> I have 4 or 5 licensed backhaul  links to get coordinated .
>
> Who is the best for getting this done cost effectively (cheap)?
>
> Paul
>
> Paul McCall, President
> Florida Broadband / PDMNet
> 658 Old Dixie Highway
> Vero Beach, FL 32962
> 772-564-6800
>
>
>
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Cost effective Frequency Coordination ???

[Steve Jones]

comsearch and intelpath are the go toes. intel path has cheap license
monitoring service, its well worth it unless you maintain a GIS pulling in
all the PCNs/licensing

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 9:59 AM Bill Prince  wrote:

> I think we got the best deal from Intelpath (AKA Liz Creekmore). Although
> other coordinators have gone down.
>
> Liz Creekmore
> Principal, Intelpath
> Email l...@intelpath.com
> Phone 312-841-9188
> Address 50 E 26th St
> Ste. 404
> Chicago, IL 60616
> 16 W 575 79th St., Ste 102
> Willowbrook, IL 60527
> Links www.intelpath.com
> Notes Frequency Coordinator
>
> bp
> 
>
>
> On 10/23/2019 5:13 AM, Paul McCall wrote:
>
> I have 4 or 5 licensed backhaul  links to get coordinated .
>
> Who is the best for getting this done cost effectively (cheap)?
>
> Paul
>
> Paul McCall, President
> Florida Broadband / PDMNet
> 658 Old Dixie Highway
> Vero Beach, FL 32962
> 772-564-6800
>
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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[AFMUG] 450SMs

[Adam Moffett]

Okay I haven't paid a lot of attention to PMP450 since I've been in a 
Telrad shop for a few years.  It looks like the old style SM was 
discontinued.


The Old SM + Reflector was said to have 25dbi of gain.

The replacement 450b "high gain" integrated dish is 22dbi.

Are you kidding me?  Cambium, why you takin' my db's away bro?



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Re: [AFMUG] Cost effective Frequency Coordination ???

[Bill Prince]

  
  
I think we got the best deal from Intelpath (AKA Liz Creekmore).
  Although other coordinators have gone down.

    Liz Creekmore
      Principal, Intelpath
      Email l...@intelpath.com
      Phone 312-841-9188
      Address 50 E 26th St
      Ste. 404
      Chicago, IL 60616
      16 W 575 79th St., Ste 102
      Willowbrook, IL 60527
      Links www.intelpath.com
      Notes Frequency Coordinator
  

bp



On 10/23/2019 5:13 AM, Paul McCall
  wrote:


  I have 4 or 5 licensed backhaul  links to get coordinated .

Who is the best for getting this done cost effectively (cheap)?

Paul

Paul McCall, President
Florida Broadband / PDMNet
658 Old Dixie Highway
Vero Beach, FL 32962
772-564-6800



  
  

  


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Re: [AFMUG] Cost effective Frequency Coordination ???

[Mathew Howard]

Last I checked, there really wasn't that much price difference between the
various companies. I used Comsearch for the last few we did.

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 9:02 AM Lewis Bergman 
wrote:

> Is Micronet that woman owned firm? I don't remember how many people she
> has but she was always inexpensive, and on top of things. A rare combo.
>
> On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 7:18 AM Matt Hoppes <
> mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:
>
>> Micronet
>>
>> On Oct 23, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Paul McCall  wrote:
>>
>> I have 4 or 5 licensed backhaul  links to get coordinated .
>>
>>
>>
>> Who is the best for getting this done cost effectively (cheap)?
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>> *Paul McCall, President *
>>
>> *Florida Broadband / PDMNet*
>>
>> *658 Old Dixie Highway*
>>
>> *Vero Beach, FL 32962*
>>
>> *772-564-6800*
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
>
> --
> Lewis Bergman
> 325-439-0533 Cell
> --
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> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Steve Jones]

We ended up reaching out to IP4 Depot. Nice guys, seems the process is
pretty straight forward and slightly less money than I expected, We will
see how clean the IP addresses are once we get them.

Talking to him about ARIN, I pretty much chot myself in the foot. We had
started working toward more prior to the depletion, so I was renumbering to
get the usage. Problem was that we had come from a flat network with IP
space all over the place and subnetting out to the routed sites was slow
going with both ours and customers critical things tied to IPs. by the time
depletion hit I stall had a bunch of IPs I couldnt free up. Turns out that
ARIN doesnt actually go out and verify all that much, I could have rode it
out on the projections and not current 80%. I thought they had jackboot
thighs with iron pipes and IP scanners. Live and learn

On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 11:58 AM Tyson Burris  wrote:

> There was two places at the show selling.  We used Hilco before.
>
> IP4 Depot we haven’t but they are being aggressive on prices.
>
>
>
> *Tyson Burris, President*
> *Internet Communications Inc.*
> *739 Commerce Dr.*
> *Franklin, IN 46131*
>
> *Daytime #* *317-738-0320 *
> *Cell/Direct #* *317-412-1540 *
> *Online: **www.surfici.net* 
>
>
>
> [image: ICI]
>
> *What can ICI do for you?*
>
>
> *Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - WiMax - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones - IP
> Security - Fiber - Tower - Infrastructure.*
>
> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the*
> *addressee shown. It contains information that is*
> *confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review,*
> *dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by*
> *unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly*
> *prohibited.*
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 12:52 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Buying new IP space
>
>
>
> Where is the best place to get these? How do we verify space has a decent
> reputation so we dont go through months of cleanup and all that stuff?
> --
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Re: [AFMUG] Cost effective Frequency Coordination ???

[Matt Hoppes]

No.   Micronet is an established firm that's cost effective and on top 
of things.


You're thinking of Liz.  She also has screwed up more coordination than 
Micronet has, for me.


On 10/23/19 10:01 AM, Lewis Bergman wrote:
Is Micronet that woman owned firm? I don't remember how many people she 
has but she was always inexpensive, and on top of things. A rare combo.


On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 7:18 AM Matt Hoppes 
> wrote:


Micronet

On Oct 23, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Paul McCall mailto:pa...@pdmnet.net>> wrote:


I have 4 or 5 licensed backhaul  links to get coordinated .

__ __

Who is the best for getting this done cost effectively (cheap)?

__ __

Paul

__ __

*Paul McCall, President *

*Florida Broadband / PDMNet*

*658 Old Dixie Highway*

*Vero Beach, FL 32962*

*772-564-6800*

__ __

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Re: [AFMUG] Cost effective Frequency Coordination ???

[Lewis Bergman]

Is Micronet that woman owned firm? I don't remember how many people she has
but she was always inexpensive, and on top of things. A rare combo.

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 7:18 AM Matt Hoppes <
mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:

> Micronet
>
> On Oct 23, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Paul McCall  wrote:
>
> I have 4 or 5 licensed backhaul  links to get coordinated .
>
>
>
> Who is the best for getting this done cost effectively (cheap)?
>
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> *Paul McCall, President *
>
> *Florida Broadband / PDMNet*
>
> *658 Old Dixie Highway*
>
> *Vero Beach, FL 32962*
>
> *772-564-6800*
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
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>


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Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Adam Moffett]

I sympathize on the financial points.  Right now the only benefit is if 
you /didn't /have to spend extra money to buy IPv4 space.  If you've got 
the IPv4 space you need, then there's literally no money in IPv6.  I 
first got involved in IPv6 for a new venture.  They couldn't get IPv4 
space at all, but they could get IPv6 + transition pool addresses.  So 
it was either dual stack or spend 5 figures on IP addresses.


I only disagree with the statement that you won't deploy until you can 
run only one stack.  Did you keep faxing until everybody else had email?



On 10/23/2019 9:01 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
FUD ALERT!  FUD ALERT!   IPv4 is not going away any time soon, it's 
not practical. There are too many things that rely on IPv4. And 
until I can run only one stack I'm not planning to mass deploy IPv6.   
We have an IPv6 deployment plan, but there is minimal benefit in dual 
stacking and no financial gain until we need to.


Right now there is a negative benefit for deploying IPv6 (overhead, 
management, no ROI, can't bill customers for static IPs).


We have a plan, but until it's needed we don't plan to roll  it out. 
IPv4 will be here for many years to come.


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Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[Matt Hoppes]

FUD ALERT!  FUD ALERT!   IPv4 is not going away any time soon, it's not 
practical. There are too many things that rely on IPv4.And until 
I can run only one stack I'm not planning to mass deploy IPv6.   We have 
an IPv6 deployment plan, but there is minimal benefit in dual stacking 
and no financial gain until we need to.


Right now there is a negative benefit for deploying IPv6 (overhead, 
management, no ROI, can't bill customers for static IPs).


We have a plan, but until it's needed we don't plan to roll  it out. 
IPv4 will be here for many years to come.


On 10/23/19 8:54 AM, dave via AF wrote:


Yeah.. No..
They are more up to date than you think just not ahead

On 10/21/19 2:20 PM, Steve Jones wrote:

yeah, no.
.gov agencies still run dos
10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized enough to 
shut down ip4 access



On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12 PM Dennis Burgess via AF > wrote:


Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4 years, if the
.govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons.  No more FCC/
IRS or any .GOV unless over v6.  Note that the current plan is 2-3
years, I have given it an extra year for measure!

V6 should be deployed NOW.   Not later, when you HAVE TO.  Then
you will be making mistakes etc.

*LTI-Full_175px*

*Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium
ePMP Certified *

Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”

*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services

*Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net


Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com


*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of * Steve Jones
*Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 2:07 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

NAT problems with BGP are why we are looking for more IP space

IP6 is still years out for us

On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:43 PM Adam Moffett mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

If you're not doing it already, start thinking about dual
stack with IPv4 CGN and IPv6 public IPs.  There's a learning
curve, but it's not that bad.

-Adam

On 10/21/2019 12:51 PM, Steve Jones wrote:

Where is the best place to get these? How do we verify
space has a decent reputation so we dont go through months
of cleanup and all that stuff?

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Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[dave via AF]

X.25 left after interoperability between each DOD branch.
Someone in a gov dark basement somewhere maybe running older os's and 
protocol but the surface is definitely staying with the times.

There are new MOS's that are requiring comp science degree to work in.


On 10/21/19 2:39 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Will this be before or after they stop using x.25?
*From:* Steve Jones
*Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 9:20 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space
yeah, no.
.gov agencies still run dos
10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized enough to 
shut down ip4 access
On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12 PM Dennis Burgess via AF 
 wrote:


Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4 years, if the
.govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons.  No more FCC/
IRS or any .GOV unless over v6.  Note that the current plan is 2-3
years, I have given it an extra year for measure!

V6 should be deployed NOW. Not later, when you HAVE TO.  Then you
will be making mistakes etc.

*LTI-Full_175px*

*Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium
ePMP Certified *

Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”

*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services

*Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net


Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 2:07 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

NAT problems with BGP are why we are looking for more IP space

IP6 is still years out for us

On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:43 PM Adam Moffett 
wrote:

If you're not doing it already, start thinking about dual
stack with IPv4 CGN and IPv6 public IPs.  There's a learning
curve, but it's not that bad.

-Adam

On 10/21/2019 12:51 PM, Steve Jones wrote:

Where is the best place to get these? How do we verify
space has a decent reputation so we dont go through months
of cleanup and all that stuff?

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Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[dave via AF]

Yeah.. No..
They are more up to date than you think just not ahead

On 10/21/19 2:20 PM, Steve Jones wrote:

yeah, no.
.gov agencies still run dos
10 years at best til the ones that matter will be organized enough to 
shut down ip4 access



On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 2:12 PM Dennis Burgess via AF > wrote:


Keep in mind that IPv6 will be necessary within 2-4 years, if the
.govs shutdown access via v4 for security reasons.  No more FCC/
IRS or any .GOV unless over v6.  Note that the current plan is 2-3
years, I have given it an extra year for measure!

V6 should be deployed NOW.   Not later, when you HAVE TO.  Then
you will be making mistakes etc.

*LTI-Full_175px*

*Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium
ePMP Certified *

Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”

*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services

*Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net


Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com


*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of * Steve Jones
*Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 2:07 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

NAT problems with BGP are why we are looking for more IP space

IP6 is still years out for us

On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:43 PM Adam Moffett mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

If you're not doing it already, start thinking about dual
stack with IPv4 CGN and IPv6 public IPs.  There's a learning
curve, but it's not that bad.

-Adam

On 10/21/2019 12:51 PM, Steve Jones wrote:

Where is the best place to get these? How do we verify
space has a decent reputation so we dont go through months
of cleanup and all that stuff?

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Re: [AFMUG] Buying new IP space

[dave via AF]

Yes,
Doing some trial runs with a smaller site we have.
Pretty cool..


On 10/21/19 1:42 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:


If you're not doing it already, start thinking about dual stack with 
IPv4 CGN and IPv6 public IPs.  There's a learning curve, but it's not 
that bad.


-Adam


On 10/21/2019 12:51 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
Where is the best place to get these? How do we verify space has a 
decent reputation so we dont go through months of cleanup and all 
that stuff?






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Re: [AFMUG] Cost effective Frequency Coordination ???

[Matt Hoppes]

Micronet

> On Oct 23, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Paul McCall  wrote:
> 
> I have 4 or 5 licensed backhaul  links to get coordinated .
>  
> Who is the best for getting this done cost effectively (cheap)?
>  
> Paul
>  
> Paul McCall, President
> Florida Broadband / PDMNet
> 658 Old Dixie Highway
> Vero Beach, FL 32962
> 772-564-6800
>  
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[AFMUG] Cost effective Frequency Coordination ???

[Paul McCall]

I have 4 or 5 licensed backhaul  links to get coordinated .

Who is the best for getting this done cost effectively (cheap)?

Paul

Paul McCall, President
Florida Broadband / PDMNet
658 Old Dixie Highway
Vero Beach, FL 32962
772-564-6800

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Re: [AFMUG] I thought I had seen it all until today

[David Coudron]

We use ADP and run our Workers Comp through them.That way we don’t have to 
deal with Workers Comp audits and ever changing premiums.   The workers comp 
premium comes out of each payroll.   It isn’t perfect, but is less hassle than 
a separate  policy.   I am sure we pay a little more for this convenience, but 
years ago when we didn’t do that, it was a lot messier.   I am guessing Mint 
would do something similar.

Regards,

David Coudron
From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 2:59 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] I thought I had seen it all until today

We use Mint for payroll.  Love them.  I have heard they have WCF options.  We 
will certainly be looking into that.

From: Forrest Christian (List Account)
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 5:21 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] I thought I had seen it all until today

I use a workers comp carrier that is integrated with QuickBooks so I don't have 
to mess with this except for the annual reconciliation and the rare breakage of 
the integration where they don't get my payroll information.

When things break they scream loudly,  repeatedly.






On Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 12:09 PM mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
I have never missed a payroll.  I personally have missed many payroll checks 
over the last 40 years but my employees have never missed a check.  I have seen 
companies declare bankruptcy.  I had a wife and a secretary (this was 25 years 
ago, Jenny knows better now) think they could miss making payroll deposits when 
cash was short.  A personal visit by the IRS was a wonderful learning 
experience.  I have seen banks come in and repo everything and sell at at 
auction.  I have seen business owners get busted boinking the cute admin 
assistant and his wife then deciding to hook up the the accountant who knew 
where all the assets were.  That was an interesting divorce.

But today a new one and one more serious than any of the above.

I got notified that my workers comp policy had been cancelled.  Totally out of 
the blue.  No warning.  I immediately  furloughed all employees and then shut 
down.   Seems a few weeks ago they request a 941 from us.  We didn’t get around 
to sending it.  No warnings that the policy would be canceled they just 
canceled it and sent an email 24 hours after the fact.  They claim they sent a 
warning letter but we have not seen it.

So we are sending the 941 and supposedly will be reinstated by midnight.  Then 
an embarrassing letter to all employees got sent.  And I am paying them all for 
today.

Never ever considered how serious no WC coverage could be.  We were clearly at 
fault for not giving them one of the half dozen documents they request every 6 
months or so.  I guarantee we will not ignore the data request ever again.  But 
WOW.
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Re: [AFMUG] I thought I had seen it all until today

[chuck]

Thanks.  I paid them for the day too.  But I am sure they were a bit stressed 
and wondering about the future.

From: Steve Jones 
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2019 10:56 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] I thought I had seen it all until today

I have to commend you for furlough. Id bet the majority of employers would just 
work through it. Reality is nothing would happen, no harm, no foul. but can you 
imagine being the poor bastard who got injured that day on the job. Sure they 
can sue you into oblivion, but that doesnt provide in the interim. I like to 
see people doing the right thing

On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 1:08 PM  wrote:

  I have never missed a payroll.  I personally have missed many payroll checks 
over the last 40 years but my employees have never missed a check.  I have seen 
companies declare bankruptcy.  I had a wife and a secretary (this was 25 years 
ago, Jenny knows better now) think they could miss making payroll deposits when 
cash was short.  A personal visit by the IRS was a wonderful learning 
experience.  I have seen banks come in and repo everything and sell at at 
auction.  I have seen business owners get busted boinking the cute admin 
assistant and his wife then deciding to hook up the the accountant who knew 
where all the assets were.  That was an interesting divorce.

  But today a new one and one more serious than any of the above. 

  I got notified that my workers comp policy had been cancelled.  Totally out 
of the blue.  No warning.  I immediately  furloughed all employees and then 
shut down.   Seems a few weeks ago they request a 941 from us.  We didn’t get 
around to sending it.  No warnings that the policy would be canceled they just 
canceled it and sent an email 24 hours after the fact.  They claim they sent a 
warning letter but we have not seen it.  

  So we are sending the 941 and supposedly will be reinstated by midnight.  
Then an embarrassing letter to all employees got sent.  And I am paying them 
all for today.  

  Never ever considered how serious no WC coverage could be.  We were clearly 
at fault for not giving them one of the half dozen documents they request every 
6 months or so.  I guarantee we will not ignore the data request ever again.  
But WOW.  
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Re: [AFMUG] I thought I had seen it all until today

[chuck]

We use Mint for payroll.  Love them.  I have heard they have WCF options.  We 
will certainly be looking into that.

From: Forrest Christian (List Account) 
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 5:21 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] I thought I had seen it all until today

I use a workers comp carrier that is integrated with QuickBooks so I don't have 
to mess with this except for the annual reconciliation and the rare breakage of 
the integration where they don't get my payroll information. 

When things break they scream loudly,  repeatedly.






On Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 12:09 PM  wrote:

  I have never missed a payroll.  I personally have missed many payroll checks 
over the last 40 years but my employees have never missed a check.  I have seen 
companies declare bankruptcy.  I had a wife and a secretary (this was 25 years 
ago, Jenny knows better now) think they could miss making payroll deposits when 
cash was short.  A personal visit by the IRS was a wonderful learning 
experience.  I have seen banks come in and repo everything and sell at at 
auction.  I have seen business owners get busted boinking the cute admin 
assistant and his wife then deciding to hook up the the accountant who knew 
where all the assets were.  That was an interesting divorce.

  But today a new one and one more serious than any of the above. 

  I got notified that my workers comp policy had been cancelled.  Totally out 
of the blue.  No warning.  I immediately  furloughed all employees and then 
shut down.   Seems a few weeks ago they request a 941 from us.  We didn’t get 
around to sending it.  No warnings that the policy would be canceled they just 
canceled it and sent an email 24 hours after the fact.  They claim they sent a 
warning letter but we have not seen it.  

  So we are sending the 941 and supposedly will be reinstated by midnight.  
Then an embarrassing letter to all employees got sent.  And I am paying them 
all for today.  

  Never ever considered how serious no WC coverage could be.  We were clearly 
at fault for not giving them one of the half dozen documents they request every 
6 months or so.  I guarantee we will not ignore the data request ever again.  
But WOW.  
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Re: [AFMUG] I thought I had seen it all until today

[chuck]

Well, a company I founded and used to work for did that after my departure.  
They continued to be a service bureau for my own company for about 6 months or 
so to finish out the year.  Nice guys...

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 12:47 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] I thought I had seen it all until today

Where did I hear about a case where a company paid a payroll service to file 
all the forms and pay all the money due but the service didn’t actually send 
any of the withholding to the government?  I thought that was here on this 
list, in fact it sounds like a Chuck story.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2019 3:56 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] I thought I had seen it all until today

 

I have to commend you for furlough. Id bet the majority of employers would just 
work through it. Reality is nothing would happen, no harm, no foul. but can you 
imagine being the poor bastard who got injured that day on the job. Sure they 
can sue you into oblivion, but that doesnt provide in the interim. I like to 
see people doing the right thing

 

On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 1:08 PM  wrote:

  I have never missed a payroll.  I personally have missed many payroll checks 
over the last 40 years but my employees have never missed a check.  I have seen 
companies declare bankruptcy.  I had a wife and a secretary (this was 25 years 
ago, Jenny knows better now) think they could miss making payroll deposits when 
cash was short.  A personal visit by the IRS was a wonderful learning 
experience.  I have seen banks come in and repo everything and sell at at 
auction.  I have seen business owners get busted boinking the cute admin 
assistant and his wife then deciding to hook up the the accountant who knew 
where all the assets were.  That was an interesting divorce.

   

  But today a new one and one more serious than any of the above. 

   

  I got notified that my workers comp policy had been cancelled.  Totally out 
of the blue.  No warning.  I immediately  furloughed all employees and then 
shut down.   Seems a few weeks ago they request a 941 from us.  We didn’t get 
around to sending it.  No warnings that the policy would be canceled they just 
canceled it and sent an email 24 hours after the fact.  They claim they sent a 
warning letter but we have not seen it.  

   

  So we are sending the 941 and supposedly will be reinstated by midnight.  
Then an embarrassing letter to all employees got sent.  And I am paying them 
all for today.  

   

  Never ever considered how serious no WC coverage could be.  We were clearly 
at fault for not giving them one of the half dozen documents they request every 
6 months or so.  I guarantee we will not ignore the data request ever again.  
But WOW.  

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