Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543643 Wrote: Cool. Thanks. Do you know what aplies it? Hardware (Transporter) or SlimServer plugin? Does Transporter have to be below MAX in order for Replay Gain to boost? That's doee there have to headroom? Does it apply dither? I'd like to boost some CD's up to full scale (say +3dB or +6dB). But I will keep Transporter on Max. Can it still apply +6dB? Replaygain quick 101: 1) using something like Foobar will calculate the correct RG tags to achieve an RMS loudness of 89dB for each album. Separate tags are written (in each track) for the track on its own and for the album as a set of tracks. 2) Using the SmartGain option in SBS allows albums to play back with the correct relative loudness between tracks AND for random tracks across albums to play at equivalent loudness 3) Using Foobar to scan whole albums at a time avoids any clipping - track peaks are scanned and the album gain for each track is set accordingly 4) the RG tags are interpreted by SBS but applied in the player before the volume control settings are applied. RG has no knowledge of the volume settings. There is no need to dither as there is no change in bit-depth connected to RG itself and no complex DSP is involved. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;543838 Wrote: Replaygain quick 101: 1) using something like Foobar will calculate the correct RG tags to achieve an RMS loudness of 89dB for each album. Separate tags are written (in each track) for the track on its own and for the album as a set of tracks. 2) Using the SmartGain option in SBS allows albums to play back with the correct relative loudness between tracks AND for random tracks across albums to play at equivalent loudness 3) Using Foobar to scan whole albums at a time avoids any clipping - track peaks are scanned and the album gain for each track is set accordingly 4) the RG tags are interpreted by SBS but applied in the player before the volume control settings are applied. RG has no knowledge of the volume settings. There is no need to dither as there is no change in bit-depth connected to RG itself and no complex DSP is involved. You could apply a fixed RG tag of +6dB to all tracks (and risk much clipping) or you could let RG calculate the tags first and then edit them to suit you. Thanks for the info. I'd only apply +6dB gain if Replay Gain says I have that much headroom in the whole album (i.e. Peak_Album 0.50) To bad there is no mode to simply say Full Scale Album basically add as much gain as the peak_album tag says there is room for. That's exactly what the amplify in Audacity defaults to. I use dbPowerAmp to add Replay Gain tags. dpPoweramp also has a Volume Normalize that does what ReplayGain does but also has the option to set Full Scale per track (not per album). They call it Peak to Peak. Meaning put Peak Data at the Peak of the Word (or DAC). But I don't want to do that per track. But per album. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Another Transporter that will not power up...
ntang;542451 Wrote: I have yet another Transporter bought NIB that will not power up (no clicking sound). It was playing and powered up fine for about a week or so, then I powered down the mains so I could move the other equipment around on the rack. Now it simply wont start! Country runs 230v and is quite stable. I cant reset it by pressing add button and power it own as per the manual cause there simply does not seem to be any power to the unit. Any idea? I am about to send it back to the seller but this is costing me a lot in shipping (overseas). Hi ntang, I've been following these several 'Transporters with AC Power Problems' incidents with much interest lately - did you buy your unit from Logitech directly? -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78170 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543842 Wrote: I'd only apply +6dB gain if Replay Gain says I have that much headroom in the whole album (i.e. Peak_Album 0.50) To bad there is no mode to simply say Full Scale Album basically add as much gain as the peak_album tag says there is room for. That's exactly what the amplify in Audacity defaults to. It sounds as if you'd like to use ReplayGain as a way of peak normalising your albums. That's not what RG is for - it is specifically aimed at equalising the perceived loudness during playback amongst albums (or tracks). Incidentally, RG doesn't just use RMS level to calculate loudness - it uses the Fletcher-Munson response curve. If you want to peak normalise, you can do that easily with an audio editor (such as Audacity), and you won't then be dependant on having a RG-aware playback device. But something is bothering me. From what you say, it appears that you believe that if you have a track/album that peaks at -6dB (ie. 50%), and you apply 6dB of digital gain to it (whether by normalisation or with ReplayGain), then you'll increase its dynamic range. It does nothing of the sort, of course. It will increase the source file's noise by 6dB along with the signal. And since the noise floor in the file is almost certainly way higher than that in your DAC, you won't gain any benefit from the fact that you're now using an extra bit in the DAC. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
cliveb;543849 Wrote: It sounds as if you'd like to use ReplayGain as a way of peak normalising your albums. That's not what RG is for - it is specifically aimed at equalising the perceived loudness during playback amongst albums (or tracks). Incidentally, RG doesn't just use RMS level to calculate loudness - it uses the Fletcher-Munson response curve. If you want to peak normalise, you can do that easily with an audio editor (such as Audacity), and you won't then be dependant on having a RG-aware playback device. But something is bothering me. From what you say, it appears that you believe that if you have a track/album that peaks at -6dB (ie. 50%), and you apply 6dB of digital gain to it (whether by normalisation or with ReplayGain), then you'll increase its dynamic range. It does nothing of the sort, of course. It will increase the source file's noise by 6dB along with the signal. And since the noise floor in the file is almost certainly way higher than that in your DAC, you won't gain any benefit from the fact that you're now using an extra bit in the DAC. Using audacity would be insane. dbpoweramp can do a whole library to full scale in 5 clicks. But I want to do it by album. I managed to find all albums over 6dB attenuated and boost them by 6dB. Took a few more clicks. But I'd be doing it for month using audacity. You're really having a hard time grasping this full scale stuff aren't you. If what you're saying were true, this test would have the same dynamic range for all attenuation levels. It doesn't. Notice dynamic range DECREASES with digital attenuation. http://mysite.verizon.net/forumwebspace/RightMark/Test%20Reports/Volume.htm It will INCREASE with digital gain up to full scale. You're not really increasing/decreasing, your just putting the data in the best performing part of the DAC. Peak to Peak as dBPowerAmp calls it. You're not getting more bits. If it's over attenuated they are gone. But you can move them up to the best part of the DAC. Yes, noise is a big part of it. When you push your data down, your pushing low bits it into noisier (poorer performing bits) of the DAC. Then you increase the gain in analog to get the level you want to hear, amplifying that lower bit NOISE. By bringing it up you move the data away from the noising bits and you bring your analog gain down to the level you want attenuating the noise of the low bits. All bits of a DAC are not equal. If they were equal (perfect) that test woould have the same dynamic range for all attenuation levels. You are assuming a DAC is perfect, even at 20bits. It's not. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543857 Wrote: You're really having a hard time grasping this full scale stuff aren't you. Er, no. *YOU* are having a hard time grapsing that all these theoretical issues have NO BEARING WHATSOEVER in a normal listening situation. mswlogo;543857 Wrote: You're not really increasing/decreasing, your just putting the data in the best performing part of the DAC. Quite so. But: a). The noise floor of the programme material is vastly higher than the DAC's own noise floor (and the point where DAC linearity degrades). b). The listening environment will have a background noise level vastly higher than the DAC's. These two factors completely mask any benefit gained by operating the DAC in its most linear range. (Within reason, of course. As always, it is important to get the gain staging correct). Here's your fundamental problem: you are unable to distinguish perfectly valid theoretical issues from their real-world consequences. You have heard an improvement in sound quality where there is none. There's a very rational explanation for this: it's called expectation bias. mswlogo;543857 Wrote: You are assuming a DAC is perfect, even at 20bits. It's not. I never said that. What I have been at pains to explain to you is that the imperfections of DACs operating in their non-linear ranges are beneath the threshold of audibility in a normal listening situation. The only way you were able to objectively demonstrate the degradation that happens when a DAC is operating in its non-linear range was to prepare an artificial sample and boost the analogue gain to insane levels. As I said in my very first response to you, no sh*t, Sherlock!. This is hardly a surprise to anyone. It's simply an extreme example of what happens when the gain staging is wrong - very wrong in this case. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] RC (Inguz etc.)
To michael123, andywright and others I will resume the installation process. I installed 7.5, the Touch and manually installed the latest InguzEQ and InguzDSP, modified Michael's plugin.pm as Andy suggested and replaced the original plugin.pm with the modified one. Are those steps correct and complete? I'm asking since I haven't succeeded. The Inguz isn't visible neither in the Touch menu nor in the web interface. Any further suggestions? Thanks, Chris. -- krzys krzys's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2256 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77084 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
pfarrell;543694 Wrote: Its not just rounding errors. Nearly all DSP is done by converting the time-doman signal to the frequency domain using a FFT. DSP chips are notable because they do a combined multiply-and-add function quickly, usually massively parallel processing. Nearly all of the time, they are actually working on floating point numbers, not the 16 or 24 bit integers that most audiophiles are used to talking about. Yes, it's frequency domain stuff. Still, the Meridian document states Meridians DSP loudspeakers utilise 48-bit internal fixed-point resolution. cliveb;543914 Wrote: There's a very rational explanation for this: it's called expectation bias. I've suggested this but to my mind, at this point, there is another possibility. It seems to me that any crossover will do EQ. This is in-band. I'm not referring to difference in levels between bands - these might be implemented with analogue gain. I'm talking in-band, the necessarily DSP bit, assuming you have a DSP-based crossover. LOL. Anyway, EQ via DSP is done by attenuation - you can't boost above 0db, you can only push frequencies down. I suggest (it's just a suggestion because I'm not an engineer) that this might cause the Meridian system to be more sensitive to digital volume control - because it's ALREADY got digital attenuation inherent in the system. The digital volume control after the crossovers is pushing the signal perhaps below the 20 bit level altogether. I agree with mswlogo that the lower bits are lower performing - it's not a black and white thing like we tend to discuss it. However I believe with something like a TP, Benchark DAC1 or similar the effects of digital volume - starting with 0db being a comfortable listening maximum - are not audible. However, I don't think starting with 0db is a valid assumption for the Meridian system since db are lost (for certainly some and perhaps much of the frequencies) in the DSP crossovers. If someone can provide more technical information to refute my suggestion I would be happy to see it. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;543926 Wrote: I agree with mswlogo that the lower bits are lower performing - it's not a black and white thing like we tend to discuss it. However, in the initial part of the attenuation the degradation is relatively small. Even the Squeezebox test results show this and I believe better DACs will have even lower degradation overall and especially in the initial region of attenuation. I believe with something like a TP, Benchark DAC1 or similar the effects of reasonable digital volume - starting with 0db being a comfortable listening maximum - will be measurably small and not audible. Darren The SqueezeBox test as I read it says the degration is HUGE !! 4bits of attenution (Volume 20 is 24dB) drops to 75dB dynamic range. Nearly 4bits lost for 4bits of attenuation. It's practically behaving like a 16bit DAC, that the low 8 bits don't even exist !!! It's behaving like a 16.2bit DAC. If I did have a Perfect 16bit DAC. And attenuated 4bits. And there by lost every I attenuted by, I'd get 72dB dynamic range, right? SqueezeBox gets 75dB. You can't get much worse. I agree other DACs will do better. But people keep referencing this squeezebox test in defense as showing all is fine and it's showing it couldn't be much worse. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
On 06/05/10 14:33, mswlogo wrote: But people keep referencing this squeezebox test in defense as showing all is fine and it's showing it couldn't be much worse. I actually pointed you at that test to point out that people were aware of the digital volume degradation issue, rather than to demonstrate that all is fine. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543939 Wrote: The SqueezeBox test as I read it says the degration is HUGE !! 4bits of attenution (Volume 20 is 24dB) drops to 75dB dynamic range. Nearly 4bits lost for 4bits of attenuation. It's practically behaving like a 16bit DAC, that the low 8 bits don't even exist !!! It's behaving like a 16.5bit DAC. If I did have a Perfect 16bit DAC. And attenuated 4bits. And there by lost every I attenuated by, I'd get 72dB dynamic range (that's absolute worse case), right? SqueezeBox gets 75dB. You can't get much worse. I agree other DACs will do better. But people keep referencing this squeezebox test in defense as showing all is fine and it's showing it couldn't be much worse. mswlogo, Where do you get 4 bits of dynamic range lost from? Volume 20 is 25db down (slightly more than 4 bits in fact) and 19.4db less dynamic range (which is far nearer to 3 bits, isn't it?) Much more importantly I suggest you look at the detail - the degradation is not linear! darrenyeats;543576 Wrote: I think I see where you're coming from. If you look at the tests volume 30 is 12.5db of attenuaton but the result is only 7.1db reduction in dynamic range from 40 (max). This is noticeably different to stepping from volume 30 to volume 20, a further 12.5db attenuation but which results in a more expected 11.7db reduction in dynamic range. Why is the initial drop off nowhere near 12.5db decibels? I'm not an engineer but I do know this test was performed on a Squeezebox which has an SNR of over 100db. Perhaps someone can step in and explain why the initial drop off is less than 12.5db. Perhaps it is to do with the DAC noise being a further 4db or so lower than -96db (compared to a digital 0db signal)? That's why I'm betting better DACs will do a lot better - in the Squeezbox test I see the difference between going from 0db to -12.5db (7.1 db dynamic range lost) and going from -12.5db to -25db (11.7db dynamic range lost)...the effect is markedly different. I note that the gap between 12.5db and 7.1db is about the difference between 96db and the SNR of the Squeezebox (a bit more than 100db). Maybe someone can explain if this is a real connection or not. But it's not as simple as you say. Better DACs will degrade very slightly to begin with, I think. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
On 06/05/10 14:51, darrenyeats wrote: Much more importantly I suggest you look at the detail - the degradation is not linear! I seem to recall that the 0-40 attenuation curve was non-linear - it changed a bit over the years, from what I recall. That would explain why the degradtion is non-linear. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543939 Wrote: It's practically behaving like a 16bit DAC, that the low 8 bits don't even exist !!! It's behaving like a 16.5bit DAC. Of course, it has a SNR of a bit more than 100db. Nearly 1 bit better than 16 bits. The results make sense, nothing to do with how many bits are in the DAC. With such a SNR it could be 48 bit DAC digitally speaking but the results would be the same! It is precisely an improved SNR (not more bits) that will enable the extra bits to become meaningful. And reduce the dynamic range lost from attenuation. Like in a TP or Bennchark DAC1. Robin Bowes;543951 Wrote: On 06/05/10 14:51, darrenyeats wrote: Much more importantly I suggest you look at the detail - the degradation is not linear! I seem to recall that the 0-40 attenuation curve was non-linear - it changed a bit over the years, from what I recall. That would explain why the degradtion is non-linear. R. I don't think that's it. I checked and the steps were 1.25 db each. (As we all know, db are themselves not linear). Also the percentages look right. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;543954 Wrote: It has a SNR of a little more than 100db. Approaching 1 bit better than 16 bits. The results make sense to me, nothing to do with how many bits are in the DAC. With such a SNR it could be 48 bit DAC digitally speaking but the results would be the same! It is precisely an improved SNR (not more bits) that will improve performance to something like a 20 or 21 bit DAC. Like in a TP or Benchmark DAC1. The Squeezebox and TP/Benchmark DAC1 all use 24 bit DACs...isn't the difference between them down to something else? I totally agree and that is probably a better way to look at it. It has a fixed total SNR. 100dB. By attenuating digitally your sliding within a 100dB window. Which is what I said, 100dB is about 16.5bits. I think we are on the same page there. I agree you can call it what ever you want and what ever number of bits. It's 100dB window on taht DAC. And basically you want to stay with in it (keep the bits of your CD within it). So on that unit you can attenuate about 3dB for free. That's all the elbow room there is. Big whoop. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543960 Wrote: I totally agree and that is probably a better way to look at it. It has a fixed total SNR. 100dB. By attenuating digitally your sliding within a 100dB window. Which is what I said, 100dB is about 16.5bits. I think we are on the same page there. I agree you can call it what ever you want and what ever number of bits. It's 100dB window on taht DAC. And basically you want to stay with in it (keep the bits of your CD within it). So on that unit you can attenuate about 3dB for free. That's all the elbow room there is. Big whoop. mswlogo, Yes. I think this is the predominant effect, anyway. Of course, moving bits down in any DAC brings the DAC's noise floor up but the point is, if that's low enough to begin with (say -120db like in a TP) that's still not a big effect compared to quantisation noise in a 16 bit signal. So you lose a tad of fidelity but this has little impact because the limitation of the 16 bit signal is the dominant factor in that situation. You're right though - the Squeezebox is limited. With my SB3 digital attenuation will hurt dynamic range measurably. I don't hear it - but I accept one might with certain systems and music. I will probably get round to buying a Benchmark DAC1 or something but only when I upgrade the rest! Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543960 Wrote: I totally agree and that is probably a better way to look at it. It has a fixed total SNR. 100dB. By attenuating digitally your sliding within a 100dB window. Which is what I said, 100dB is about 16.5bits. I think we are on the same page there. I agree you can call it what ever you want and what ever number of bits. It's 100dB window on taht DAC. And basically you want to stay with in it (keep the bits of your CD within it). So on that unit you can attenuate about 3dB for free. That's all the elbow room there is. Big whoop. You appear to be making the classic mistake of assuming you need as much dynamic range when listening at low levels as you do when listening at high levels. You don't. If you need 100dB of dynamic range when listening at a peak level of 100dB SPL, then you only need 90dB dynamic range when listening at a peak level of 90dB SPL. When you attenuate by 10dB to reduce the listening level that much, you can afford to lose 10dB of dynamic range. That's why it doesn't matter whether you do the attenuation by digital or analogue means. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
cliveb;543993 Wrote: You appear to be making the classic mistake of assuming you need as much dynamic range when listening at low levels as you do when listening at high levels. You don't. If you need 100dB of dynamic range when listening at a peak level of 100dB SPL, then you only need 90dB dynamic range when listening at a peak level of 90dB SPL. When you attenuate by 10dB to reduce the listening level that much, you can afford to lose 10dB of dynamic range. That's why it doesn't matter whether you do the attenuation by digital or analogue means. But you're making the classic mistake that music uses the full (or a fixed) dynamic range all the time (Marching Bands and Brahms at the same time). I don't care about that situation. I may have a Full Scale tune blasting away at 90dB and it may change to using ANY number of bits at ANY time. That's why I posted that Audacity screen shot a dozen posts back. It swings from steady 6dB down to a steady 30dB down. That tune shows it very visibly. But all tunes do that at a higher frequency than that example shows. Stop looking at it, as one sample at time. Sure, the really LOUD samples will still have plenty of SNR. But the quiet ones will get harmed more. Now how fast ones ear responds to those changes in levels (how fast is humans Automatic Gain Control) is up for debate. But the example I gave shows it can be pretty darn slow and be needed. So yeah if you have a tune that is bashing you at full scale all the time, you won't notice a couple bits lost. One smash of a symbol will start full scale and decay in amplitude. As it decays the performance of those lower bits get more important. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
cliveb;543993 Wrote: You appear to be making the classic mistake of assuming you need as much dynamic range when listening at low levels as you do when listening at high levels. You don't. If you need 100dB of dynamic range when listening at a peak level of 100dB SPL, then you only need 90dB dynamic range when listening at a peak level of 90dB SPL. When you attenuate by 10dB to reduce the listening level that much, you can afford to lose 10dB of dynamic range. That's why it doesn't matter whether you do the attenuation by digital or analogue means. I'm not sure about that, Clive. I think mswlogo has a point although I would put it this way: human hearing adjusts to new sound levels. So turning down the volume could actually enable you to hear quieter sounds! It's a bit academic for you though...you've got a TP so the limiting factor for dynamic range will be the 16 bit signal noise, even with 20db of digital attenuation. DAC noise floor is incredibly low. -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;543999 Wrote: I'm not sure about that, Clive. I think mswlogo has a point (crazy thread mswlogo, crazy thread!) although I would put it this way: human hearing adjusts to new sound levels. So turning down the volume could actually enable you to hear quieter sounds! It's a bit academic for you though...you've got a TP so by far the dominant factor for dynamic range will be the 16 bit signal noise, even with 20db of digital attenuation. DAC noise floor is incredibly low. They say humans have 120dB dynamic range. But that probably is not instantanious. It can hear something very loud. And hear some very soft a short time later. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;543999 Wrote: I'm not sure about that, Clive. I think mswlogo has a point (crazy thread mswlogo, crazy thread!) although I would put it this way: human hearing adjusts to new sound levels. So turning down the volume could actually enable you to hear quieter sounds! It's a bit academic for you though...you've got a TP so by far the dominant factor for dynamic range will be the 16 bit signal noise, even with 20db of digital attenuation. DAC noise floor is incredibly low. Human AGC is quite slow to act. It won't track the levels in that Offenbach example. It's not intended to be a fast-acting compressor - we have an evolutionary need to differentiate loud/quiet to stay alive (loud=near, quiet=far away to misquote Father Ted...) The rate at which level changes tells us something about how fast the source is moving. Two ears helps us determine direction of movement... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543997 Wrote: One smash of a symbol will start full scale and decay in amplitude. As it decays the performance of those lower bits get more important. Yes, absolutely. As the cymbal crash dies away, the lower level detail is no longer masked by the loud crash. Therefore you need accurate reproduction of the lower bits to hear the subtle aspects. So we are in agreement? Er, no... Let's say you're listening to a piece of music and there's a cymbal crash peaking at 100dB SPL, then it decays. Let's be extreme about this and say there are decay details at 4dB SPL you need to be able to hear. (We'll ignore for the moment that your lisening room can't possibly be quiet enough). In order to hear those details, you need a system capable of a 96dB dynamic range (ie. a full 16 bits). The voltage of the signal at 4dB is 1/65536th of the voltage at 100dB. If the voltage that delivers 100dB is 10V, the voltage that gives you 4dB is 0.152mV. So far so good. Now turn the volume down, so the cymbal crash is at 94dB. The voltage to generate that level is half that required for 100dB: 5V. And so the subtle detail in the decay will now be playing at 0.076mV, which will give an output level 6dB lower than it was before, ie. at -2dB SPL. But hang on - you can't hear anything beneath 0dB SPL. Those subtle details that were audible in the decay when the peak level was 100dB are not audible when the peak level is 94dB. Once again: as you turn the volume down, the required dynamic range reduces. I'm not talking about the changing levels within a track, I'm talking about adjusting the playback level with a volume control. If 16 bits of resolution is enough when you're listening at 100% on the volume control, then 15 bits will be enough when it's at 50% (assuming a linear scale for simplicity). On the other hand, if your system/ear is wonderful enough that you need 20bits at 100%, then you'll need 19 bits at 50%. But the principle remains the same: to retain the same amount of audibility of fine detail, as you reduce the playback level you can afford to lose dynamic range. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;544008 Wrote: Human AGC is quite slow to act. It won't track the levels in that Offenbach example. It's not intended to be a fast-acting compressor - we have an evolutionary need to differentiate loud/quiet to stay alive (loud=near, quiet=far away to misquote Father Ted...) The rate at which level changes tells us something about how fast the source is moving. Two ears helps us determine direction of movement... Agreed. As I said I was referring to turning down the volume, which is a long-term change. I've moved my position since the beginning of the thread on this point, because of what I've read. No doubt. I'm probably somewhere between your/Clive's position and mswlogo's in that (a) I think the lower the volume the less requirement for dynamic range but (b) I think human hearing does adjust to a certain degree (not perfectly). I would like to see more evidence or resources on this particular point before saying any more. As I say, given 16 bit source material on a high performing DAC this question is effectively moot. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
cliveb;544011 Wrote: Yes, absolutely. As the cymbal crash dies away, the lower level detail is no longer masked by the loud crash. Therefore you need accurate reproduction of the lower bits to hear the subtle aspects. So we are in agreement? Er, no... Let's say you're listening to a piece of music and there's a cymbal crash peaking at 100dB SPL, then it decays. Let's be extreme about this and say there are decay details at 4dB SPL you need to be able to hear. (We'll ignore for the moment that your lisening room can't possibly be quiet enough). In order to hear those details, you need a system capable of a 96dB dynamic range (ie. a full 16 bits). The voltage of the signal at 4dB is 1/65536th of the voltage at 100dB. If the voltage that delivers 100dB is 10V, the voltage that gives you 4dB is 0.152mV. So far so good. Now turn the volume down, so the cymbal crash is at 94dB. The voltage to generate that level is half that required for 100dB: 5V. And so the subtle detail in the decay will now be playing at 0.076mV, which will give an output level 6dB lower than it was before, ie. at -2dB SPL. But hang on - you can't hear anything beneath 0dB SPL. Those subtle details that were audible in the decay when the peak level was 100dB are not audible when the peak level is 94dB. Once again: as you turn the volume down, the required dynamic range reduces. I'm not talking about the changing levels within a track, I'm talking about adjusting the playback level with a volume control. If 16 bits of resolution is enough when you're listening at 100% on the volume control, then 15 bits will be enough when it's at 50% (assuming a linear scale for simplicity). On the other hand, if your system/ear is wonderful enough that you need 20bits at 100%, then you'll need 19 bits at 50%. But the principle remains the same: to retain the same amount of audibility of fine detail, as you reduce the playback level you can afford to lose dynamic range. (Edit - or rather: as you turn the playback level down, you can't hear as much fine detail, so you don't need as much dynamic range). When you turn it down in analog your noise floor goes down with it (for the most part). When you turn it down in digital it does not !! -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
One thing I think we are hung up on is. Your saying the noise floor of the room is the limitation and I'm saying it's the DAC. You're also considering that floor as a discrete wall. It's not really, that's the problem. As you shift down ALL the bits perform progressively worse. Not just the least significant one(s). -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;544022 Wrote: When you turn it down in analog your noise floor goes down with it (for the most part). When you turn it down in digital it does not !! Not exactly - with digital attenuation, the noise floor of the recording does go down but the noise floor of the DAC stays fixed. I think this is the crux. I think the noise floor of the recording always swamps that of the DAC. This is certainly true of any recordings made before 1980, and most recordings made up to the point when the SONY PCM1 recorder stopped being state-of-the-art... I'd go further and bet that no recordings made until the late 90's achieved better that an 80dB noise floor. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;544035 Wrote: Not exactly - with digital attenuation, the noise floor of the recording does go down but the noise floor of the DAC stays fixed. I think this is the crux. I think the noise floor of the recording always swamps that of the DAC. This is certainly true of any recordings made before 1980, and most recordings made up to the point when the SONY PCM1 recorder stopped being state-of-the-art... I'd go further and bet that no recordings made until the late 90's achieved better that an 80dB noise floor. I can't argue that. But keep in mind every attenuation shift cost is relative to what you have. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Another Transporter that will not power up...
Happened once to my unit. It turned out to be the simplest reason ever. I use power conditioner/surge protector with switchable power outlets. Transporter outlet was off. Make sure to eliminate those simple glitches before going with your investigation ;_) I have also read somewhere about Transporter's stuck relays. If you confident with multimeter you can measure AC inside unit. Be careful those voltages could be lethal. Don't do it if you're not 100% sure what you're doing. -- gizek Transporter Adcom GFP-750 Monarchy Audio SM-70Pro monoblocks Proac Studio 100; Cardas Neutral Reference all over gizek's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34337 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78170 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;544033 Wrote: As you shift down ALL the bits perform progressively worse. Not just the least significant one(s). Yes, yes, mswlogo, all the bits perform progressively worse! LOL. May I add once more, if the quantisation noise of a 16 bit signal is at -96db and you have a DAC with noise of -120db, that badness inherent in the 16 bit signal utterly dominates the tiny degree of worseness because of the DAC bit shift. But we all agree on that I think? It depends how good the DAC is and how far you shift down whether fidelity is affected (ranging from very insignificantly to significantly). I reckon a TP can perform the same as the squeeze...@100% in that test after at least 3 bits shift downward. Will it perform better at full range? My guess would be yes but only insignificantly so, assuming a 16 bit signal. Good night all! Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Another Transporter that will not power up...
Hi... No...Bought mine new in box from ebay. What difference would it make? NewBuyer;543845 Wrote: Hi ntang, I've been following these several 'Transporters with AC Power Problems' incidents with much interest lately - did you buy your unit from Logitech directly? -- ntang Transporter, SB3, Duet playing ALAC through Mcintosh preamp, amp and Musical Fidelity gear... ntang's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11710 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78170 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Another Transporter that will not power up...
Yup...sounds like mine has a stuck relay (no click). I have just sent it back to the seller and he is shipping me a new one. I plug mine directly into a dedicated circuit...nothing in-between gizek;544139 Wrote: Happened once to my unit. It turned out to be the simplest reason ever. I use power conditioner/surge protector with switchable power outlets. Transporter outlet was off. Make sure to eliminate those simple glitches before going with your investigation ;_) I have also read somewhere about Transporter's stuck relays. If you confident with multimeter you can measure AC inside unit. Be careful those voltages could be lethal. Don't do it if you're not 100% sure what you're doing. -- ntang Transporter, SB3, Duet playing ALAC through Mcintosh preamp, amp and Musical Fidelity gear... ntang's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11710 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78170 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Another Transporter that will not power up...
Yup...sounds like mine has a stuck relay (no click). I have just sent it back to the seller and he is shipping me a new one. I plug mine directly into a dedicated circuit...nothing in-between gizek;544139 Wrote: Happened once to my unit. It turned out to be the simplest reason ever. I use power conditioner/surge protector with switchable power outlets. Transporter outlet was off. Make sure to eliminate those simple glitches before going with your investigation ;_) I have also read somewhere about Transporter's stuck relays. If you confident with multimeter you can measure AC inside unit. Be careful those voltages could be lethal. Don't do it if you're not 100% sure what you're doing. -- ntang Transporter, SB3, Duet playing ALAC through Mcintosh preamp, amp and Musical Fidelity gear... ntang's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11710 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78170 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing of Transporter using Digital Attenuation
Enjoy. http://meridianunplugged.com/downloads/ComparisonTransporterDigitalAttenutionTest/Comparison.htm -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78408 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
