Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
NewBuyer;226256 Wrote: As I understood it, when an incoming signal to an upsampler or upsampling DAC is already 24-bit (like say a digitally attenuated signal from an SB3 S/PDIF output), there may be some amount of word length reduction done immediately prior to the upsampling and re-extension of the bit width by the upsampling algorithm or device. OK, now I see what you are getting at. My response would to ask why on earth any upsampler expecting to be taken seriously would do such a stupid thing. Do you have any examples of upsamplers that do this? -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
adamslim;225816 Wrote: The SB3 volume control is quite transparent - it all works at 24 bits, so for CDs does not truncate bits (the major quality loss) until you are reducing volume really quite a lot. However, it will increase the S/N ratio in the DAC, which will have a small impact on quality - but this may be less than caused by an analogue volume control. However, if you are happy with your pre-amp volume control, best sound from the SB3 must be at full volume. This is doing the least processing. My amp does not have a remote volume, and I am happy to use the SB3 volume in the range 80-100 or so (and I consider myself pretty fussy!). Adam Thanks a lot for the very fast and clear answer! It's very conforting to buy a product backed-up by audiophiles. So if I understood corectly, the volume is adjusted before the DAC, digitaly, just like it would with replay gain enabled. Moreover, thanks to the 24-bits computing I don't have to worry about too much about rounding errors. Still I'll probably let the level at 100 and use my pre-amp ;) -- testic testic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
that sounds very close to what I'm hearing I'd still rather use a good old analogue pot ! -- zanash Acoustician and builder of interesting cables zanash's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12157 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
opaqueice;226264 Wrote: My point is very simple. Rounding errors like that can only affect the last digit. So the worst thing that can happen is that the volume-reduced result is off by an amount equal to half the 24th digit. On the other hand the last three digits are lost in noise anyway for the transporter (and it's worse for the SB). So the distortion due to noise is always at least 16 times the amplitude of the distortion induced by the digital rounding. Am I missing something? If your point is right you are not missing something. I do not have the gift to remember everything i read. Thats why i am discussing it(digital vs analog volum) here in this fourm whre there are peaple with more education, training. Using my calculator. Multiply 16bit decimal value 65535 with 0,35(%error) and converting it back to binary it only affect the last bit. Just likes as you explained. The higher wordlength and sample rate we have the less potential error distortion we get, when reproducing analog audio. If the uppsampling device is very good, or the audio line are correctly implemented - computer - software - dac - dac - amp - speakers. If you add wordlength and sample rate it can couse to much peak and distortion to treble and bass. Potentially. Every time we are using digital volumecontrol, i quote from the guide(dont know if it is allowed?): To apply gain or attenuation to a digital audio signal, a multiplication is performed on each digital sample that collectively create the digital audio signal. If we use 24bit/96khz in todays audio, we stays within the potential of 0,5% error, presumably. And only the last digit will be affected. But, if that is not trough ? I dont know. Peaple cant hear no difference. Transporter use digital volume(it must be good). I will use the analog volume and recommend the other users in this apartment to also use analog volumecontrol later. It is nice to know that software player - SB3 - is at 100% volum. It have being interesting and fun to discuss. -- eiret eiret's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11521 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
eiret;226334 Wrote: Using my calculator. Multiply 16bit decimal value 65535 with 0,35(%error) and converting it back to binary it only affect the last bit. Just likes as you explained. Yes well whatever - but you are missing the point that it's NOT 16-bit it is 24-bit and the error of 0.5 of the the 24th bit is completely insignificant!. eiret;226334 Wrote: If you add wordlength and sample rate it can couse to much peak and distortion to treble and bass. Potentially. NO IT CAN'T! -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
cliveb;226283 Wrote: OK, now I see what you are getting at. My response would to ask why on earth any upsampler expecting to be taken seriously would do such a stupid thing. Do you have any examples of upsamplers that do this? Hi cliveb, Yes that's my response too! I was very surprised to learn this, and that apparently any upsampler, or upsampling DAC, may be doing so. Manufacturer responses usually include that either the bits *are* being so altered, or are *likely* being so altered - but they can't say if it affects the sonic outcome, and usually recommend that the user just test and see. I don't know how one could control the variables in such a test though. Subjectively the SB3 digital attenuation through these devices seems to work fine to me, so I guess I must leave it to the experts to determine if it really matters! :) -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
eiret wrote: Every time we are using digital volumecontrol, i quote from the guide(dont know if it is allowed?): To apply gain or attenuation to a digital audio signal, a multiplication is performed on each digital sample that collectively create the digital audio signal. If we use 24bit/96khz in todays audio, we stays within the potential of 0,5% error, presumably. And only the last digit will be affected. It's not too difficult to ensure that there is *no* rounding error by choosing suitable multiplication values for each step of the volume setting. Slimserver does this check out this thread for details: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17269 The bottom line is that if you keep your volume level at or above -30dB then there will be no rounding errors induced in changing the level of the digital signal. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
NewBuyer;226069 Wrote: A little digital attenuation might not be a bad thing these days, with the current trend of recording so close to the 0dbfs level (sometimes even exceeding it). I'm also told that hardware implementations (including recent upsampling dacs) that natively widen an input S/PDIF signal to 24-bit during the resampling/upsampling process, don't pass the same 24-bit input signal that was input - but instead will alter the bits. So send a 24-bit S/PDIF signal (from say an SB3) into such a device, and those 24-bits that went in will not be the same 24-bits that will eventually hit the DAC anyway. What the effect of this might be (if any), was never explained. Do you have any more information on this? As previously explained, any differences in the lowest 3-4 bits won't be detectable anyway - but I'd like to know where this story comes from -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
I don't class my self as an expert in the digital side of things and certainly not on the minutia of the sb3 . What I can hear if I turn the volume down using the sb3 and turning up the analogue volume to match the original volume, is a softening of the sound a little like a telescope going out of focus. I'd rather have the problems of the analogue vol pot without appearing to loss digital information. -- zanash Acoustician and builder of interesting cables zanash's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12157 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
Phil Leigh;226102 Wrote: Do you have any more information on this? As previously explained, any differences in the lowest 3-4 bits won't be detectable anyway - but I'd like to know where this story comes from Hi Phil, Most recently I heard this from GW Labs, which makes 'the excellent DSP upsampling device' (http://www.gw-labs.com/products/index.html) based on the CS8420 I believe. Digital volume control still works from the SB3 through this device, but apparently the 24-bits are not passing through unchanged. I guess technically this results in some kind/amount of distortion(?) but who knows what the audible effect is (if any). I don't notice any degradation whatsoever, in spite of their assurance that the bits are being altered. -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
NewBuyer;226124 Wrote: Most recently I heard this from GW Labs, which makes 'the excellent DSP upsampling device' (http://www.gw-labs.com/products/index.html) based on the CS8420 I believe. Digital volume control still works from the SB3 through this device (like with other upsamplers and with upsampling DACs), but apparently the 24-bits are -not- passing through unchanged. Sorry, am I missing something here? It's an upsampler. You can't expect the bits to remain unaltered during such a process. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
zanash;226123 Wrote: What I can hear if I turn the volume down using the sb3 and turning up the analogue volume to match the original volume, is a softening of the sound a little like a telescope going out of focus. Point 1: Nobody has ever suggested that the SB's digital volume control should be used for basic gain staging. Your experiment yields results which are not relevant in day-to-day operation. Point 2: How can you be sure that the change in focus isn't due to the fact that you're operating the analogue preamp at a different gain? All active preamps have slightly varying noise and distortion as you adjust their gain. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
Being an IT person (like others on the forum) I guess I am less scared of some of these digital processes. Upsampling doesn't destroy any information. (Downsampling might.) For example, if you have a photo sized 300 pixels by 200 pixels on computer, and expand it to 600 by 400 pixels, you do not destroy any original information. You just make it bigger. There are various ways of expanding the image. You could create 2x2 pixel blocks exactly corresponding to the original photo. In which case, the photo looks exactly the same, just as blocky, except physically bigger on the screen. Or, you could expand it using a dithering technique which interpolates values for each of the pixels at the new resolution, from values of pixels at the old resolution. Either way, no information has been lost (and I mean none, nada, zip, not a jot) and one may argue that a dithered up-scaled picture might be a more natural representation for the human eye. If it is upscaled in this way, and downscaled in a compatible fashion to the original size, you still get exactly the original photo. Exactly, I mean exactly down to the last 1 or 0! Try it. Repeat the process ten times, a million times. The end result is exactly the same as the original, down to the last 1 or 0. It's just the way it works. (I might add that if anyone claimed to *see* a difference in the end image, it could only be put down to a placebo effect :-p Ooh!) The issue for red book is that the original signal is encoded with a 16 bit word length. Upscaling involves no degradation to the signal, in fact might enhance it subjectively (but not in terms of its content of absolutely accurate original information, which remains utterly unchanged). And if this upscaling is done to a sufficient degree it means that subsequent volume attenuation might still not impact that information content - you still have the original resolution encoded in the signal. (This depends on the level of upscaling, and the amount of attenuation - which is why it's recommended to stay in the higher side of the digital volume range.) If you're not so familiar with IT concepts it sounds scary, but really it does work this way. Regards, Darren PS: Eiret, I'm glad your calculator agrees with me that upscaling from 16 bit to 24 bit multiplies the numbers by 256 :-) PPS: Anyone wanting to know how to check for computer files being bit-identical should google checksum. -- darrenyeats SB3 with Inguz - Sony DAS-703ES DAC - Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (home-made room treatments and supports) darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
PS: Eiret, I'm glad your calculator agrees with me that upscaling from 16 bit to 24 bit multiplies the numbers by 256 :-) Yes, the calculator agree approximately. There is a bit missing. I dont remember why. To day i had a wake up call at 11:11, its true. -- eiret eiret's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11521 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
eiret;226132 Wrote: To day i had a wake up call at 11:11, its true. LOL! Brilliant. Yeah, what happens is that 8 bits can represent 2^8 states (256). That means numbers 0 to 255 - since 0 is one of the states. So 8 bits can represent any number up to 2^8-1. 16 bits can represent any number up to 2^16-1 etc. Regards, Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 with Inguz - Sony DAS-703ES DAC - Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (home-made room treatments and supports) darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
darrenyeats;226133 Wrote: LOL! Brilliant. Yeah, what happens is that 8 bits can represent 2^8 states (256). That means numbers 0 to 255 - since 0 is one of the states. So 8 bits can represent any number up to 2^8-1. 16 bits can represent any number up to 2^16-1 etc. Regards, Darren No i had an other wake up call at 14:37 Regards, eiret -- eiret eiret's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11521 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
darrenyeats;226129 Wrote: And if this upscaling is done to a sufficient degree it means that subsequent volume attenuation might still not impact that information content - you still have the original resolution encoded in the signal. (This depends on the level of upscaling, and the amount of attenuation - which is why it's recommended to stay in the higher side of the digital volume range.) I'm very confused by this discussion. According to Sean the TP can resolve 21 bits, which means the last three are meaningless (and for the SB it's considerably worse). Rounding errors from digital attenuation can only ever affect the last bit. So what are we talking about? I think it's ordinary signal/noise logic, which applies equally well to analogue controls, that tells you not to turn down the volume too much. The digital stuff is a red herring. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
opaqueice;226140 Wrote: I'm very confused by this discussion. According to Sean the TP can resolve 21 bits, which means the last three are meaningless (and for the SB it's considerably worse). Rounding errors from digital attenuation can only ever affect the last bit. So what are we talking about? I think it's ordinary signal/noise logic, which applies equally well to analogue controls, that tells you not to turn down the volume too much. The digital stuff is a red herring. Interesting question and reflection. Maybe the digital volumecontrol stuff is a red herring. From an amateur audio filosopher point of veiw there was meaningful to mention that it is measurable mathematically, an decrease in audio quality when using digital volumecontrol. Even though you cant hear it. Thats how i express it after reading the guide linked in an earlier post. There are peaple that prefer analog volumecontrol and those who dont. The same with proffessinoal audio producers(both analog and digital). If the transporter have digital volumecontrol ? Maybe it is bechause the digital is good enouhg ? It would be fine to have a final conclusion : Does digital volumecontrol resoult in decrease in audioquality ? Is it just measurable mathematically ? -- eiret eiret's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11521 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
OK I'll have a go: No, properly implemented digital level control does not compromise or degrade audio quality in a way that a human being (not a calculator) can detect, provided that it is used sensibly - i.e.the level is not attenuated too much. For the SB/TP that means keeping the level within the 80-100 range and using analogue attenuation to make this your normal listening range. By the way, on the topic of upsamplers altering the bits - ignoring the 16 v 24 issue - it is possible that the lowest bit may be altered due to rounding differences - but the lowest bit of 24 is inaudible anyway!. One could argue that altering the 16th bit of 16 bit audio is also inaudible - but there is some debate about this. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
opaqueice;226140 Wrote: I'm very confused by this discussion. According to Sean the TP can resolve 21 bits, which means the last three are meaningless (and for the SB it's considerably worse). Rounding errors from digital attenuation can only ever affect the last bit. So what are we talking about? I think it's ordinary signal/noise logic, which applies equally well to analogue controls, that tells you not to turn down the volume too much. The digital stuff is a red herring. The comment about volume control was a last minute aside. (I must remind myself to stop making these last minute asides which screw up my main message!). And I agree, SNR is the real issue in practical terms. The main point of my post was to explain upscaling and why it isn't to be feared. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 with Inguz - Sony DAS-703ES DAC - Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (home-made room treatments and supports) darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
Phil Leigh;226156 Wrote: OK I'll have a go: No, properly implemented digital level control does not compromise or degrade audio quality in a way that a human being (not a calculator) can detect, provided that it is used sensibly - i.e.the level is not attenuated too much. For the SB/TP that means keeping the level within the 80-100 range and using analogue attenuation to make this your normal listening range. By the way, on the topic of upsamplers altering the bits - ignoring the 16 v 24 issue - it is possible that the lowest bit may be altered due to rounding differences - but the lowest bit of 24 is inaudible anyway!. One could argue that altering the 16th bit of 16 bit audio is also inaudible - but there is some debate about this. Well, OK - but an analogue volume control turned way down is also bad. The point is, there doesn't seem to be ANY real difference between analogue and digital volume controls, even in principle. In both cases there's simply an issue of S/N. Digital rounding errors - at least in the case at hand - are totally irrelevant no matter how much you turn down the volume because they're always less than the noise. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
The point is, there doesn't seem to be ANY real difference between analogue and digital volume controls, even in principle. opaqueice, I am interested in your meaning after reading the guide. If you have time, please read trough this section of this guide : Digital volumecontrols. http://extra.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/Digital_volume_control A little quote form the guide :Disasterous distortion can potentially arise when a digital volume control is implemented Binary numbers, just like decimal numbers, do not always multiply and divide evenly. There are often remainders - extra digits that are a result of the multiplication. -- eiret eiret's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11521 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
cliveb;226126 Wrote: Sorry, am I missing something here? It's an upsampler. You can't expect the bits to remain unaltered during such a process. Hi cliveb, More likely that I am missing something, instead of you! As I understood it, when an incoming signal to an upsampler or upsampling DAC is already 24-bit (like say a digitally attenuated signal from an SB3 S/PDIF output), there may be some amount of word length reduction done immediately prior to the upsampling and re-extension of the bit width by the upsampling algorithm or device. Outcome: Who knows! :) (I haven't noticed any audible result). -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
eiret;226237 Wrote: Binary numbers, just like decimal numbers, do not always multiply and divide evenly. There are often remainders - extra digits that are a result of the multiplication. My point is very simple. Rounding errors like that can only affect the last digit. So the worst thing that can happen is that the volume-reduced result is off by an amount equal to half the 24th digit. On the other hand the last three digits are lost in noise anyway for the transporter (and it's worse for the SB). So the distortion due to noise is always at least 16 times the amplitude of the distortion induced by the digital rounding. Am I missing something? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
seanadams;225886 Wrote: Transporter sure gets close... it can definitely resolve 21 bits. Cool - that's literally a bit better than most ROTFL Sounds like strapline to me! -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
I am not an audiophile, i post here anyway. Experts recommend analog volum control and digital volum set to 100%. You are all agree about that i think. Since you cant hear any decrease in audio quality when using digital volume compare to analog volum control, i think we are using 24 or 16 bit all the time(16/24bit recording). Bechause i think we need all the bits anyway if we are using 40% volum or 90% volum. This is an 8 bit example : 00101000 = 40% volum01011010 = 90% volum To me, digitally thinking, we use every bit either using 40% or 90% of the volum. Bechause the zeroes 0`s are also bits. Remember, i am not an computer/bit expert neither an audiophile, but this is my thoughts, contribution. If i am wrong i will not be hurt he he ..:) -- eiret eiret's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11521 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
eiret;225972 Wrote: I am not an audiophile, i post here anyway. Experts recommend analog volum control and digital volum set to 100%. You are all agree about that i think. Since you cant hear any decrease in audio quality when using digital volume compare to analog volum control, i think we are using 24 or 16 bit all the time(16/24bit recording). Bechause i think we need all the bits anyway if we are using 40% volum or 90% volum. This is an 8 bit example : 00101000 = 40% volum01011010 = 90% volum To me, digitally thinking, we use every bit either using 40% or 90% of the volum. Bechause the zeroes 0`s are also bits. Remember, i am not an computer/bit expert neither an audiophile, but this is my thoughts, contribution. If i am wrong i will not be hurt he he ..:) BUT, i will use analog volume control when i eventually get one. Just to get the best audio quality mathematical binary thinking. It is measurable mathematically. But that is not the same as saying it is audible, that you can hear it. Maybe you must have an $200 000 equipment to hear the difference. It IS measurable. Something to do with the binary 2 - number system. It cant be as accurat as 10 - number system. I forgot my earlier reading. You can read about it here somewhere : http://extra.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page -- eiret eiret's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11521 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
Phil Leigh;225999 Wrote: I'm not quite sure who these experts are that you refer to, but I'd take more notice of the fact that some of the nicest setups in use on this forum are using a TP directly into active speakers such as ATC100's. These are very revealing setups. Clearly the experts are wrong (yet again) because these folks are using the digital volume control and seem quite happy. Of course 16 bit uses all 16 bits all the time and 24 bit uses all 24. Digital level control at 16-bit is a crude device... however, the SB, TP and any decent digital gear will upgrade an incoming 16 bit signal to 24 bit before applying level adjustment. As the designer of the SB/TP - Sean - pointed out in an a recent post, the TP can resolve to 21 bits, beyond which is random noise. Applying digital level adjustment to a 24-bit signal (native or upgraded from 16-bit) is fine. It works. Try it and see. This is not about maths, it's about music. You really ought to take a trip to a studio sometime - it would be an eye-opener...all the levels are being manipulated digitally nowadays - and that's before you ever get to hear it. So that great sounding vocal or guitar or whatever will already have had its level adjusted in this manner. If it was really the musically destructive process that the experts claim, people woudn't use it ! If I had no pre-amp I'd be very happy to use attenuators to set the max level approximately and then use the digital level control to adjust to taste. Very Happy. The experts are here http://extra.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page I think they are making reference to finished recordings. CD, DVD, Computer Audio Playback - wav, flac...not during the acutal producing of the master tapes. Some prefer analog volume control in studio too, i think(not being in a studio). You are quiet right regarding digital volumecontrol in studio. For the most of them. It is measureable mathematically that analog is better on the finished product. That said, i am bad in math(thats why i am refering to experts). I am using SB3 directly in to Quad 12l Active and are quiet happy my self, listening to music. I will use analog volume control later. -- eiret eiret's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11521 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
eiret;226012 Wrote: The experts are here http://extra.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page Presumably you are referring to the digital volume control section in the computer audio playback setup guide, and have noted this sentence: Disasterous distortion can potentially arise when a digital volume control is implemented. Please note the very important words can and potentially in this sentence. Just because something *can* happen doesn't mean it *will*. eiret;226012 Wrote: It is measureable mathematically that analog is better on the finished product. That said, i am bad in math(thats why i am refering to experts). If the analogue volume control is implemented with a precision stepped attenuator using carefully matched resistors, then that's true. (Although whether the difference will be audible is debateable). But if the analogue volume control is implemented with any kind of potentiometer, I seriously doubt it. Even the finest potentiometers have tracking inaccuracies far worse than the rounding errors resulting from a 24 bit digital volume control. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
cliveb;226016 Wrote: Presumably you are referring to the digital volume control section in the computer audio playback setup guide, and have noted this sentence: Please note the very important words can and potentially in this sentence. Just because something *can* happen doesn't mean it *will*. If the analogue volume control is implemented with a precision stepped attenuator using carefully matched resistors, then that's true. (Although whether the difference will be audible is debateable). But if the analogue volume control is implemented with any kind of potentiometer, I seriously doubt it. Even the finest potentiometers have tracking inaccuracies far worse than the rounding errors resulting from a 24 bit digital volume control. I agree, here is an another link about clean audio installation. I don`t understand all the tecnic`s but there are many others who do : http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/caig/html/ -- eiret eiret's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11521 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
cliveb;226016 Wrote: Presumably you are referring to the digital volume control section in the computer audio playback setup guide, Here is the mathematic : EXAMPLE (decimal numbers are used for simplicity): When multipling 21 by 0.5 (equation: 21 * 0.5), the result is 10.5. The result (10.5) requires three digits to represent it, where as the two multiples (21 and 0.5) only had two digits. Se below on this side : http://extra.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/Digital_volume_control -- eiret eiret's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11521 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
eiret;226036 Wrote: cliveb;226016 Wrote: Presumably you are referring to the digital volume control section in the computer audio playback setup guide, Here is the mathematic : EXAMPLE (decimal numbers are used for simplicity): When multipling 21 by 0.5 (equation: 21 * 0.5), the result is 10.5. The result (10.5) requires three digits to represent it, where as the two multiples (21 and 0.5) only had two digits. Se below on this side : http://extra.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/Digital_volume_control So, in your example, the sound amplitude is represented as 21. But if you multiply 21 by 256 first (which is like what happens when you upsample from 16 bits to 24 bits) the amplitude is now represented by 5376. Divide 5376 by 2 and you get 2688 which is still a whole number. That is why upsampling is done before the volume control is applied...what would have been 16 bit fractions are handled properly. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 with Inguz - Sony DAS-703ES DAC - Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (home-made room treatments and supports) darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
darrenyeats;226041 Wrote: eiret;226036 Wrote: So, in your example, the sound amplitude is represented as 21. But if you multiply 21 by 256 first (which is like what happens when you upsample from 16 bits to 24 bits) the amplitude is now represented by 5376. Divide 5376 by 2 and you get 2688 which is still a whole number. That is why upsampling is done before the volume control is applied...what would have been 16 bit fractions are handled properly. Darren 8bit = 255 16bit = 65535 24bit = 16777215 start-programs-accesories-calculator-push advanced-place a tick on bin-type 8bits -place a tick on dec=255 Do the same again with 16 1`s and 24 1`s. What happens when you do not get whole numbers in 24bit(16777215)? A little bit distortion. Maybe not audible. There is a reason why benchmark dac1 has an analog volumcontrol. -- eiret eiret's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11521 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
eiret;226048 Wrote: darrenyeats;226041 Wrote: 8bit = 255 16bit = 65535 24bit = 16777215 start-programs-accesories-calculator-push advanced-place a tick on bin-type 8bits -place a tick on dec=255 Do the same again with 16 1`s and 24 1`s. What happens when you do not get whole numbers in 24bit(16777215)? A little bit distortion. Maybe not audible. There is a reason why benchmark dac1 has an analog volumecontrol. I think you have completely lost the plot on this. If you think you are going to actually hear a 1 in 16 million error...you are wrong! As Clive so eloquently explained there are issues with analogue volume control (e.g. non-linearity) that are rather more problematic. Anyway, as you obviously seem to think that Benchmark wrote the book on audio - which they didn't - why don't you buy a DAC1 and enjoy its mathematical superiority? :o) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
A little digital attenuation might not be a bad thing these days, with the current trend of recording so close to the 0dbfs level (sometimes even exceeding it). I'm also told that hardware implementations (including recent upsampling dacs) that natively widen an input S/PDIF signal to 24-bit during the resampling/upsampling process, don't pass the same 24-bit input signal that was input - but instead will alter the bits. So send a 24-bit S/PDIF signal (from say an SB3) into such a device, and those 24-bits that went in will not be the same 24-bits that will eventually hit the DAC anyway. What the effect of this might be (if any), was never explained. -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
If you think you are going to actually hear a 1 in 16 million error...you are wrong! As i pointed out before. Maybe not audible. It is measureable mathematically according to the guide that was linked in my post. It can be more than 1 bit and sample rates, or just maybe only loss of sample rates ? Anyway, as you obviously seem to think that Benchmark wrote the book on audio - which they didn't - why don't you buy a DAC1 and enjoy its mathematical superiority? :o) I will. If some engineers write a guide(if they are)under benchmarks name, i think they know what they are talking about. I am an amateur who like to read guides, so i can get some knowledge. There are also other good dac`s out there, and guides too. -- eiret eiret's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11521 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
Hello, I've just bought a SB3. I use the analog outputs in my good quality pre-amplifier/amplifier. I'm used to adjust sound level on my amp, not the listening device, however I saw that the SB3 had volume adjustment. So I guess that there is some kind of pre-amplifier in the SB3, is this right, or is it normal functionality of the DAC to be able to adjust line-level outputs voltage? At what volume should I use the SB3, given that I would like control volume on my pre-amplifier? Or, to put it another way, what volume should I use if I want the SB3 to do the less audio processing as possible and let my pre-amp/amp do it? Thanks! -- testic testic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
adamslim;225816 Wrote: The SB3 volume control is quite transparent - it all works at 24 bits, so for CDs does not truncate bits (the major quality loss) until you are reducing volume really quite a lot. However, it will increase the S/N ratio in the DAC, which will have a small impact on quality - but this may be less than caused by an analogue volume control. However, if you are happy with your pre-amp volume control, best sound from the SB3 must be at full volume. This is doing the least processing. My amp does not have a remote volume, and I am happy to use the SB3 volume in the range 80-100 or so (and I consider myself pretty fussy!). Adam As Adam - I can't hear any degradition in quality when using the volume on the SB in that range - and I am rather fussy too! I think we can add this to the ever-growing audio myth pile (you know - along with coax is always better than toslink - that sort of thing!) By the way, even with true 24-bit audio I reckon you can probably lose the last 4 bits or so without anyone actually noticing a change in sound quality... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
The SB3 volume control is quite transparent - it all works at 24 bits, so for CDs does not truncate bits (the major quality loss) until you are reducing volume really quite a lot. However, it will increase the S/N ratio in the DAC, which will have a small impact on quality - but this may be less than caused by an analogue volume control. However, if you are happy with your pre-amp volume control, best sound from the SB3 must be at full volume. This is doing the least processing. My amp does not have a remote volume, and I am happy to use the SB3 volume in the range 80-100 or so (and I consider myself pretty fussy!). Adam -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ 'Last.fm group: people who don't listen to any of last.fm's top artists' (http://www.last.fm/group/People+who+don%27t+listen+to+any+of+last.fm%27s+top+artists) SB+, EAR 859, Living Voice Auditorium II plus some other stuff SB3, Shek d2, Ming-Da MC84-C, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
The main SB3 volume control work in the digital domain, it's best to
leave this at 0Db/100%
If most music still sounds too loud compared to your other inputs to
the pre-amplifier/amplifier, use the slimserver web-interface and goto
Home / Player Settings for {SB3 name} / Audio.
In the PREAMP VOLUME CONTROL field, try some values so that the SB3
line-out level creates a similar volume to other line-in feeds to your
pre-amplifier/amplifier so you don't get a 'blast' when switching to
the SB3.
--
amcluesent
amcluesent's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10286
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233
___
audiophiles mailing list
audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com
http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
cliveb;225841 Wrote: And IMHO you can also add to the ever-growing audio myth pile true 24-bit audio. Is there *any* device out there in the real world with a noise floor down at -144dB? (PS. I also think the digital volume control works just fine). Clive - by true 24-bit I simply mean that the files were (allegedly) recorded at 24-bit resolution. My whole point is that the last 4 bits don't have anything but noise in them IMHO - so I think we are agreeing :o) It certainly is possible to record 24-bit - I've done it...but I couldn't honestly say what's going on down there at the bottom as it were... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
Phil Leigh;225826 Wrote: I think we can add this to the ever-growing audio myth pile (you know - along with coax is always better than toslink - that sort of thing!) By the way, even with true 24-bit audio I reckon you can probably lose the last 4 bits or so without anyone actually noticing a change in sound quality... And IMHO you can also add to the ever-growing audio myth pile true 24-bit audio. Is there *any* device out there in the real world with a noise floor down at -144dB? (PS. I also think the digital volume control works just fine). -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
Phil Leigh;225846 Wrote: Clive - by true 24-bit I simply mean that the files were (allegedly) recorded at 24-bit resolution. My whole point is that the last 4 bits don't have anything but noise in them IMHO - so I think we are agreeing :o) It certainly is possible to record 24-bit - I've done it...but I couldn't honestly say what's going on down there at the bottom as it were... The Nibble of Noise? -- darrenyeats SB3 with Inguz - Sony DAS-703ES DAC - Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (home-made room treatments and supports) darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
You can't agree here - this is the -Audiophile- forum! -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ 'Last.fm group: people who don't listen to any of last.fm's top artists' (http://www.last.fm/group/People+who+don%27t+listen+to+any+of+last.fm%27s+top+artists) SB+, EAR 859, Living Voice Auditorium II plus some other stuff SB3, Shek d2, Ming-Da MC84-C, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3, best audio quality and sound level
Transporter sure gets close... it can definitely resolve 21 bits. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
