Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Ulrich Stauss]

The torpedoing of the GFA’s corporate Facebook page continues:

“Just to make it clear the Board wanted no more posts at present for whatever 
reason. The only access I have even had is as an Editor. I have never had Admin 
rights and so cannot assign the page to anybody else much as would like to. GFA 
M&D has no 'Admin' rights over any kind of the official Social Media at all - 
Facebook, Twitter, You Tube everything, that is a Board decision not GFA M&D.”

 

Whoever is now responsible for the GFA’s social media representation needs to 
put a stop this abuse of access rights by a disgruntled individual. The page 
currently has 1119 followers, there are British pilots making fun of this in 
the comments and the general reaction shows the people do give “a crap”.   

 

Ulrich

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Ulrich Stauss
Sent: Monday, 6 February 2017 23:41
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' 

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

 

The saga continues…

Again from the GFA Facebook page: “At the request of the Board no more posts 
will be made to this page. Therefore sadly it is effectively now closed.”

Somebody switching the lights off? Interesting comments too. 

 

Ulrich

 

From: Aus-soaring [ <mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au> 
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of Ulrich Stauss
Sent: Monday, 30 January 2017 11:07
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' < 
<mailto:aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

 

No reason to engage in what comes across an attempt of a bit of sabotage on the 
way out…

 

Ulrich

 

From: Aus-soaring [ <mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au> 
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of Richard Frawley
Sent: Monday, 30 January 2017 10:44
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. < 
<mailto:aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

 

 

 

after 3 years of trying the positive path and not seeing engagement, he has 
just got the shits with the whole thing and feels like giving the community a 
wake up call. i doubt there is much viewing of any of the social pages beyond 
existing community and in any case no one externally would give a crap.

 

 

 

 


On 30 Jan 2017, at 10:50 AM, Ulrich Stauss mailto:usta...@internode.on.net> > wrote:

>From the GFA Facebook page: “Due to complaints from a vocal few who oppose the 
>facts the last post had been deleted at their request. It's s sad day when the 
>noise of a few drown out the facts however unpalatable they maybe. We cannot 
>move forward until we accept where we are and recognize the need for change in 
>the way we see the current situation and change can only happen with hardwork, 
>burying our heads on the sand because we don't like what we are hearing will 
>achieve nothing.”

Do we really need the dirty washing of one (or more?) frustrated individuals 
displayed on the public shopfront window of the GFA? How is that going to come 
across to (prospective) members and the general public? How embarrassing for 
the organisation and insulting to the volunteers who carry it.

 

This is stuff that needs to be sorted out in the board room, not in public. 
Just floating ideas (in such a negative tone at that) and expecting the 
membership to jump to it is a public display of bad leadership (and in my view 
as good as a resignation letter). Putting meat to those ideas and implementing 
change in an enthusiastic manner is what is needed instead.

 

Ulrich

 

From: Aus-soaring [ <mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au> 
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of Ulrich Stauss
Sent: Sunday, 29 January 2017 22:55
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' < 
<mailto:aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au>
Subject: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

 

Has somebody in GFA Marketing and Development lost their marbles?

The attached post essentially blaming the membership for “not getting off their 
collective butts” continues a string of similarly negative posts mainly on 
Facebook and has prompted quite a few comments from upset members, several of 
which - including mine - were removed and at least in my case I am now blocked 
from the GFA page.

The same happened to me in response to my remark/question I posted in the 
thread below which I had initially posed in an FB comment on the WGC2017 
Benalla page: the comment was deleted and I was blocked from the page.

 

Rather than blaming the general membership fo

Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Mark Newton]

On 7 Feb 2017, at 8:30 AM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
> 
> whats positive Mark is that it is recognised that most of the work that needs 
> to done has to be at grass roots level, nothing to do with the GFA at all.

Hahah yeah, bullshit.

You can’t do a grass-roots MOSP rewrite.

Grass roots won’t get a CASR amended to enable glider endorsements on RPLs.


> Unfortunately it is a growing weakness in our culture is to blame the 
> government (or any upstream authority) rather than assume personal 
> responsibility.

Unfortunately it is a growing weakness in GFA to blame the members (for not 
grass-rooting hard enough) rather than assume responsibility for their jobs and 
functions.

The literal point of the GFA is collective representation to the regulator.  
There is no other purpose to its existence. If we have a discussion about 
interactions with regulations, and GFA people say, “Your individual 
responsibility is deficient,” the mere existence of that conversation 
represents a total abysmal failure of the GFA to do what the GFA is designed to 
do.


> Its also clear that the GFA has little control over anything in all reality, 
> except to write documents put some polices in place and hope somebody enacts 
> them. Most everything else happens between members and the club management

Absolute unmitigated rolled-gold 24-carat bullshit.

The GFA writes regulations in a fee-for-service arrangement with CASA.

As an organization, it has near total power over every aspect of gliding in 
Australia. If it writes documents to promulgate some policy, it doesn’t need to 
“hope somebody enacts it,”it does biennial audits with the power to shut anyone 
down who doesn’t enact it.

To point at an organization with that much power and say it “has little control 
over anything in all reality” is the pinnacle of misguided victimhood.

If GFA officeholders really feel that way, they should grow the hell up and 
have a good hard look at the reality they’re inhabiting.


> The good news is that there are clubs that are operating differently and 
> showing great results.

No, there aren’t. 

There really aren’t.

The whole movement is in decline, has been for decades; and the clubs with 
“great results” will collapse faster than anyone realizes when the rest of the 
movement lacks the critical mass to sustain them.

(Where will the successful clubs get their form-2s done when the businesses 
providing glider airworthiness close their doors because there aren’t enough 
active gliders to make it worthwhile? What’ll they do instead, lean harder on 
volunteers, then sneer at them when they get jaded and leave? ‘Cos that’s been 
working well so far, hasn’t it?)

> And what is also clear its that just about nobody active on this list wants 
> to do anything other than whinge. As an example, only one person offered to 
> assist with the L2 ops change….(thanks Bernard)

… and, just like that, you get to dismiss everybody who isn’t down with the 
status quo.

Some of us spent a great deal of time and effort advocating for change from 
inside the system, and gave up in despair.

We shouldn’t need to expend even more effort and suffer even more despair to be 
taken seriously.


> Lets all  please remember that the GFA is just ordinary people doing 
> thankless volunteer jobs,

No it is not “just” that.

Some of it is that, yes.

But some of it is also a private organization which receives several hundred 
thousand dollars per year to act as an outsourced regulator.

You appear to be denying that that’s true, which is pretty weird, because GFA 
has over a million bucks in the bank, and it didn’t get that by publishing 
gliding magazines.


> As a pilot and aircraft owner, I find the whole GFA experience simple, easy 
> and painless, works well for me and many, many others I know.

> As I am getting a self launcher, I do want this L2 ops situation improved and 
> I will apply efforts towards that.

Translation: You’ll agitate for whatever change within GFA you need to make you 
happy, and not a skerrick more.

As you depicted above, anyone who agitates for change within GFA that you’re 
indifferent to is a whinger.

“Individual responsibility.”

  - mark


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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Richard Frawley]

> On 7 Feb 2017, at 9:46 am, Ulrich Stauss  wrote:
> 
> “Its also clear that the GFA has little control over anything in all reality, 
> except to write documents put some polices in place and hope somebody enacts 
> them. Most everything else happens between members and the club management”
> Seriously? With that mindset, do you actually expect to get any changes to 
> the L2 Ind Op implemented? Maybe if you hope real hard…?

There are ways, mainly just don't give up.


> Those on the GFA board/exec who share this opinion need to stop wasting their 
> time and step back (as the M&D finally seems to have now) to let someone with 
> some enthusiasm and a more active approach to (change) management get on with 
> it.

Yes, having an inside support helps
>  
> “The good news is that there are clubs that are operating differently and 
> showing great results. They do not appear to be constrained or crippled by 
> the GFA as some would like to make out”
> These clubs tend to have very good leaders who can make things happen. They 
> don’t have the fatalistic attitude displayed for the world to see by the 
> posts from GFA M&D (all but the last one of which have been removed at the 
> time I write this) and the first quote above..

indeed..,,case in point



>  
> Ulrich Stauss
> 0421 151 412
> usta...@internode.on.net <mailto:usta...@internode.on.net>
>  
> From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf 
> Of Richard Frawley
> Sent: Tuesday, 7 February 2017 08:01
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?
>  
> whats positive Mark is that it is recognised that most of the work that needs 
> to done has to be at grass roots level, nothing to do with the GFA at all.
>  
> Unfortunately it is a growing weakness in our culture is to blame the 
> government (or any upstream authority) rather than assume personal 
> responsibility.
>  
> Its also clear that the GFA has little control over anything in all reality, 
> except to write documents put some polices in place and hope somebody enacts 
> them. Most everything else happens between members and the club management
>  
> The good news is that there are clubs that are operating differently and 
> showing great results. They do not appear to be constrained or crippled by 
> the GFA as some would like to make out.
>  
> And what is also clear its that just about nobody active on this list wants 
> to do anything other than whinge. As an example, only one person offered to 
> assist with the L2 ops change….(thanks Bernard)
>  
> Your last point is what many people seem to do on this list, only its with 
> the GFA as their target.  
>  
> Lets all  please remember that the GFA is just ordinary people doing 
> thankless volunteer jobs, generally with the interest of community foremost 
> and trying to do the right thing within the constraints available. They are 
> just people. 
>  
> As a pilot and aircraft owner, I find the whole GFA experience simple, easy 
> and painless, works well for me and many, many others I know.
>  
> As I am getting a self launcher, I do want this L2 ops situation improved and 
> I will apply efforts towards that.
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>> On 7 Feb 2017, at 8:03 am, Mark Newton > <mailto:new...@atdot.dotat.org>> wrote:
>>  
>> On 7 Feb 2017, at 7:34 AM, Richard Frawley > <mailto:rjfraw...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>  
>>> 
>>> snarkiness???
>>> its that what exposing some reality is called?
>>  
>> He has a job to do.
>>  
>> He’s doing the opposite of the job.
>>  
>>> 
>>> john might not be very PC and the way he expressed things could have been a 
>>> little more sensitive, 
>>  
>> “PC”?  “Sensitive”?  Turn it up, mate, nobody asked for those things.
>>  
>> 
>> 
>>> but there was also a lot of reality in what he imparted.  Looks to me like 
>>> a lot of healthy discussion as one result.
>>  
>> The same “healthy discussion” that’s been going on for at least 20 years.
>>  
>> It’ll peter out into nothingness in due course, and the GFA will decline to 
>> do anything about it.
>>  
>> Then something else will spark its resumption in a year or so, and the same 
>> points will be made again.
>>  
>> This isn’t new discussion with unique insights, it’s boring, repetitive, and 
>> demoralizing to cover the same territory over and over again for decades. 
>> There is clearly appetite within the GFA membership for the outcomes that 
>> have been discuss

Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Ulrich Stauss]

“Its also clear that the GFA has little control over anything in all reality, 
except to write documents put some polices in place and hope somebody enacts 
them. Most everything else happens between members and the club management”

With that mindset, do you expect to get any changes to the L2 Ind Op 
implemented?

Those on the GFA board/exec who share this opinion should stop wasting their 
time and step back to let someone with some enthusiasm and a more active 
approach to (change) management get on with it.

 

“The good news is that there are clubs that are operating differently and 
showing great results. They do not appear to be constrained or crippled by the 
GFA as some would like to make out”

These clubs tend to have very good leaders who can make things happen. They 
don’t have the fatalistic attitude displayed for the world to see by the posts 
from GFA M&D (all but the last one of which have been removed at the time I 
write this) and the first quote above..

 

Ulrich Stauss

0421 151 412

 <mailto:usta...@internode.on.net> usta...@internode.on.net

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Richard Frawley
Sent: Tuesday, 7 February 2017 08:01
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

 

whats positive Mark is that it is recognised that most of the work that needs 
to done has to be at grass roots level, nothing to do with the GFA at all.

 

Unfortunately it is a growing weakness in our culture is to blame the 
government (or any upstream authority) rather than assume personal 
responsibility.

 

Its also clear that the GFA has little control over anything in all reality, 
except to write documents put some polices in place and hope somebody enacts 
them. Most everything else happens between members and the club management

 

The good news is that there are clubs that are operating differently and 
showing great results. They do not appear to be constrained or crippled by the 
GFA as some would like to make out.

 

And what is also clear its that just about nobody active on this list wants to 
do anything other than whinge. As an example, only one person offered to assist 
with the L2 ops change….(thanks Bernard)

 

Your last point is what many people seem to do on this list, only its with the 
GFA as their target.  

 

Lets all  please remember that the GFA is just ordinary people doing thankless 
volunteer jobs, generally with the interest of community foremost and trying to 
do the right thing within the constraints available. They are just people. 

 

As a pilot and aircraft owner, I find the whole GFA experience simple, easy and 
painless, works well for me and many, many others I know.

 

As I am getting a self launcher, I do want this L2 ops situation improved and I 
will apply efforts towards that.

 

 

 

 

 

On 7 Feb 2017, at 8:03 am, Mark Newton mailto:new...@atdot.dotat.org> > wrote:

 

On 7 Feb 2017, at 7:34 AM, Richard Frawley mailto:rjfraw...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 


snarkiness???
its that what exposing some reality is called?

 

He has a job to do.

 

He’s doing the opposite of the job.

 


john might not be very PC and the way he expressed things could have been a 
little more sensitive, 

 

“PC”?  “Sensitive”?  Turn it up, mate, nobody asked for those things.

 





but there was also a lot of reality in what he imparted.  Looks to me like a 
lot of healthy discussion as one result.

 

The same “healthy discussion” that’s been going on for at least 20 years.

 

It’ll peter out into nothingness in due course, and the GFA will decline to do 
anything about it.

 

Then something else will spark its resumption in a year or so, and the same 
points will be made again.

 

This isn’t new discussion with unique insights, it’s boring, repetitive, and 
demoralizing to cover the same territory over and over again for decades. There 
is clearly appetite within the GFA membership for the outcomes that have been 
discussed here, but no momentum whatsoever within the hierarchy to achieve them.

 

CFIT.





I don't think he deserved such punitive and heavy handedness, and trying to gag 
a marketing guy of all people has to be red rag to a bull.
Shuttering a core social media channel does not look that clever either.

 

He’s a volunteer, doing a job he’s supposed to enjoy.

 

If he isn’t enjoying it, or isn’t doing a good job of it, he should stop 
volunteering and hand it over to someone else.

 

Using his platform to berate everyone else about how hopeless they are is not 
acceptable behavior.

 

 

  - mark

 

 

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 <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring> 
http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring

 

_

Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Ulrich Stauss]

“Its also clear that the GFA has little control over anything in all reality, 
except to write documents put some polices in place and hope somebody enacts 
them. Most everything else happens between members and the club management”

Seriously? With that mindset, do you actually expect to get any changes to the 
L2 Ind Op implemented? Maybe if you hope real hard…?

Those on the GFA board/exec who share this opinion need to stop wasting their 
time and step back (as the M&D finally seems to have now) to let someone with 
some enthusiasm and a more active approach to (change) management get on with 
it.

 

“The good news is that there are clubs that are operating differently and 
showing great results. They do not appear to be constrained or crippled by the 
GFA as some would like to make out”

These clubs tend to have very good leaders who can make things happen. They 
don’t have the fatalistic attitude displayed for the world to see by the posts 
from GFA M&D (all but the last one of which have been removed at the time I 
write this) and the first quote above..

 

Ulrich Stauss

0421 151 412

 <mailto:usta...@internode.on.net> usta...@internode.on.net

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Richard Frawley
Sent: Tuesday, 7 February 2017 08:01
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

 

whats positive Mark is that it is recognised that most of the work that needs 
to done has to be at grass roots level, nothing to do with the GFA at all.

 

Unfortunately it is a growing weakness in our culture is to blame the 
government (or any upstream authority) rather than assume personal 
responsibility.

 

Its also clear that the GFA has little control over anything in all reality, 
except to write documents put some polices in place and hope somebody enacts 
them. Most everything else happens between members and the club management

 

The good news is that there are clubs that are operating differently and 
showing great results. They do not appear to be constrained or crippled by the 
GFA as some would like to make out.

 

And what is also clear its that just about nobody active on this list wants to 
do anything other than whinge. As an example, only one person offered to assist 
with the L2 ops change….(thanks Bernard)

 

Your last point is what many people seem to do on this list, only its with the 
GFA as their target.  

 

Lets all  please remember that the GFA is just ordinary people doing thankless 
volunteer jobs, generally with the interest of community foremost and trying to 
do the right thing within the constraints available. They are just people. 

 

As a pilot and aircraft owner, I find the whole GFA experience simple, easy and 
painless, works well for me and many, many others I know.

 

As I am getting a self launcher, I do want this L2 ops situation improved and I 
will apply efforts towards that.

 

 

 

 

 

On 7 Feb 2017, at 8:03 am, Mark Newton  wrote:

 

On 7 Feb 2017, at 7:34 AM, Richard Frawley mailto:rjfraw...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 


snarkiness???
its that what exposing some reality is called?

 

He has a job to do.

 

He’s doing the opposite of the job.

 


john might not be very PC and the way he expressed things could have been a 
little more sensitive, 

 

“PC”?  “Sensitive”?  Turn it up, mate, nobody asked for those things.

 





but there was also a lot of reality in what he imparted.  Looks to me like a 
lot of healthy discussion as one result.

 

The same “healthy discussion” that’s been going on for at least 20 years.

 

It’ll peter out into nothingness in due course, and the GFA will decline to do 
anything about it.

 

Then something else will spark its resumption in a year or so, and the same 
points will be made again.

 

This isn’t new discussion with unique insights, it’s boring, repetitive, and 
demoralizing to cover the same territory over and over again for decades. There 
is clearly appetite within the GFA membership for the outcomes that have been 
discussed here, but no momentum whatsoever within the hierarchy to achieve them.

 

CFIT.





I don't think he deserved such punitive and heavy handedness, and trying to gag 
a marketing guy of all people has to be red rag to a bull.
Shuttering a core social media channel does not look that clever either.

 

He’s a volunteer, doing a job he’s supposed to enjoy.

 

If he isn’t enjoying it, or isn’t doing a good job of it, he should stop 
volunteering and hand it over to someone else.

 

Using his platform to berate everyone else about how hopeless they are is not 
acceptable behavior.

 

 

  - mark

 

 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Richard Frawley]

whats positive Mark is that it is recognised that most of the work that needs 
to done has to be at grass roots level, nothing to do with the GFA at all.

Unfortunately it is a growing weakness in our culture is to blame the 
government (or any upstream authority) rather than assume personal 
responsibility.

Its also clear that the GFA has little control over anything in all reality, 
except to write documents put some polices in place and hope somebody enacts 
them. Most everything else happens between members and the club management

The good news is that there are clubs that are operating differently and 
showing great results. They do not appear to be constrained or crippled by the 
GFA as some would like to make out.

And what is also clear its that just about nobody active on this list wants to 
do anything other than whinge. As an example, only one person offered to assist 
with the L2 ops change….(thanks Bernard)

Your last point is what many people seem to do on this list, only its with the 
GFA as their target.  

Lets all  please remember that the GFA is just ordinary people doing thankless 
volunteer jobs, generally with the interest of community foremost and trying to 
do the right thing within the constraints available. They are just people. 

As a pilot and aircraft owner, I find the whole GFA experience simple, easy and 
painless, works well for me and many, many others I know.

As I am getting a self launcher, I do want this L2 ops situation improved and I 
will apply efforts towards that.





> On 7 Feb 2017, at 8:03 am, Mark Newton  wrote:
> 
> On 7 Feb 2017, at 7:34 AM, Richard Frawley  > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> snarkiness???
>> its that what exposing some reality is called?
> 
> He has a job to do.
> 
> He’s doing the opposite of the job.
> 
>> 
>> john might not be very PC and the way he expressed things could have been a 
>> little more sensitive,
> 
> “PC”?  “Sensitive”?  Turn it up, mate, nobody asked for those things.
> 
> 
>> but there was also a lot of reality in what he imparted.  Looks to me like a 
>> lot of healthy discussion as one result.
> 
> The same “healthy discussion” that’s been going on for at least 20 years.
> 
> It’ll peter out into nothingness in due course, and the GFA will decline to 
> do anything about it.
> 
> Then something else will spark its resumption in a year or so, and the same 
> points will be made again.
> 
> This isn’t new discussion with unique insights, it’s boring, repetitive, and 
> demoralizing to cover the same territory over and over again for decades. 
> There is clearly appetite within the GFA membership for the outcomes that 
> have been discussed here, but no momentum whatsoever within the hierarchy to 
> achieve them.
> 
> CFIT.
> 
>> I don't think he deserved such punitive and heavy handedness, and trying to 
>> gag a marketing guy of all people has to be red rag to a bull.
>> Shuttering a core social media channel does not look that clever either.
> 
> He’s a volunteer, doing a job he’s supposed to enjoy.
> 
> If he isn’t enjoying it, or isn’t doing a good job of it, he should stop 
> volunteering and hand it over to someone else.
> 
> Using his platform to berate everyone else about how hopeless they are is not 
> acceptable behavior.
> 
> 
>   - mark
> 
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Mark Newton]

On 7 Feb 2017, at 7:34 AM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
> 
> 
> snarkiness???
> its that what exposing some reality is called?

He has a job to do.

He’s doing the opposite of the job.

> 
> john might not be very PC and the way he expressed things could have been a 
> little more sensitive,

“PC”?  “Sensitive”?  Turn it up, mate, nobody asked for those things.


> but there was also a lot of reality in what he imparted.  Looks to me like a 
> lot of healthy discussion as one result.

The same “healthy discussion” that’s been going on for at least 20 years.

It’ll peter out into nothingness in due course, and the GFA will decline to do 
anything about it.

Then something else will spark its resumption in a year or so, and the same 
points will be made again.

This isn’t new discussion with unique insights, it’s boring, repetitive, and 
demoralizing to cover the same territory over and over again for decades. There 
is clearly appetite within the GFA membership for the outcomes that have been 
discussed here, but no momentum whatsoever within the hierarchy to achieve them.

CFIT.

> I don't think he deserved such punitive and heavy handedness, and trying to 
> gag a marketing guy of all people has to be red rag to a bull.
> Shuttering a core social media channel does not look that clever either.

He’s a volunteer, doing a job he’s supposed to enjoy.

If he isn’t enjoying it, or isn’t doing a good job of it, he should stop 
volunteering and hand it over to someone else.

Using his platform to berate everyone else about how hopeless they are is not 
acceptable behavior.


  - mark


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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Nick Gilbert]

Snarkiness refers to the manner in which it was done. Not the content. Hard
to argue with that.

Nick.

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 7:04 AM, Richard Frawley  wrote:

>
> snarkiness???
>
> its that what exposing some reality is called?
>
> john might not be very PC and the way he expressed things could have been
> a little more sensitive, but there was also a lot of reality in what he
> imparted.  Looks to me like a lot of healthy discussion as one result.
>
> I don't think he deserved such punitive and heavy handedness, and trying
> to gag a marketing guy of all people has to be red rag to a bull.
>
> Shuttering a core social media channel does not look that clever either.
>
> surely there were other negotiable outcomes available.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 7 Feb 2017, at 6:45 AM, Justin Couch  wrote:
> >
> >> On 7/02/2017 12:10 AM, Ulrich Stauss wrote:
> >> The saga continues…
> >>
> >> Again from the GFA Facebook page: “At the request of the Board no more
> posts will be made to this page. Therefore sadly it is effectively now
> closed.”
> >>
> >> Somebody switching the lights off? Interesting comments too.
> >
> > No, John spitting the dummy in a huge way after being told to knock off
> all the snarkiness.  More over on the official GFA mail list. He's lost the
> plot completely now.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Justin Couch http://www.vlc.com.au/
> > Java 3D Graphics Informationhttp://www.j3d.org/
> > LinkedIn http://au.linkedin.com/in/justincouch/
> > G+   WetMorgoth
> > ---
> > "Look through the lens, and the light breaks down into many lights.
> > Turn it or move it, and a new set of arrangements appears... is it
> > a single light or many lights, lights that one must know how to
> > distinguish, recognise and appreciate? Is it one light with many
> > frames or one frame for many lights?"  -Subcomandante Marcos
> > ---
> > ___
> > Aus-soaring mailing list
> > Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
> > http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Richard Frawley]

snarkiness???

its that what exposing some reality is called?

john might not be very PC and the way he expressed things could have been a 
little more sensitive, but there was also a lot of reality in what he imparted. 
 Looks to me like a lot of healthy discussion as one result.

I don't think he deserved such punitive and heavy handedness, and trying to gag 
a marketing guy of all people has to be red rag to a bull.

Shuttering a core social media channel does not look that clever either.

surely there were other negotiable outcomes available.

















> On 7 Feb 2017, at 6:45 AM, Justin Couch  wrote:
> 
>> On 7/02/2017 12:10 AM, Ulrich Stauss wrote:
>> The saga continues…
>> 
>> Again from the GFA Facebook page: “At the request of the Board no more posts 
>> will be made to this page. Therefore sadly it is effectively now closed.”
>> 
>> Somebody switching the lights off? Interesting comments too.
> 
> No, John spitting the dummy in a huge way after being told to knock off all 
> the snarkiness.  More over on the official GFA mail list. He's lost the plot 
> completely now.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Justin Couch http://www.vlc.com.au/
> Java 3D Graphics Informationhttp://www.j3d.org/
> LinkedIn http://au.linkedin.com/in/justincouch/
> G+   WetMorgoth
> ---
> "Look through the lens, and the light breaks down into many lights.
> Turn it or move it, and a new set of arrangements appears... is it
> a single light or many lights, lights that one must know how to
> distinguish, recognise and appreciate? Is it one light with many
> frames or one frame for many lights?"  -Subcomandante Marcos
> ---
> ___
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Justin Couch]

On 7/02/2017 12:10 AM, Ulrich Stauss wrote:

The saga continues…

Again from the GFA Facebook page: “At the request of the Board no more posts 
will be made to this page. Therefore sadly it is effectively now closed.”

Somebody switching the lights off? Interesting comments too.


No, John spitting the dummy in a huge way after being told to knock off 
all the snarkiness.  More over on the official GFA mail list. He's lost 
the plot completely now.



--
Justin Couch http://www.vlc.com.au/
Java 3D Graphics Informationhttp://www.j3d.org/
LinkedIn http://au.linkedin.com/in/justincouch/
G+   WetMorgoth
---
"Look through the lens, and the light breaks down into many lights.
 Turn it or move it, and a new set of arrangements appears... is it
 a single light or many lights, lights that one must know how to
 distinguish, recognise and appreciate? Is it one light with many
 frames or one frame for many lights?"  -Subcomandante Marcos
---
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Ulrich Stauss]

The saga continues…

Again from the GFA Facebook page: “At the request of the Board no more posts 
will be made to this page. Therefore sadly it is effectively now closed.”

Somebody switching the lights off? Interesting comments too. 

 

Ulrich

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Ulrich Stauss
Sent: Monday, 30 January 2017 11:07
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' 

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

 

No reason to engage in what comes across an attempt of a bit of sabotage on the 
way out…

 

Ulrich

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Richard Frawley
Sent: Monday, 30 January 2017 10:44
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
mailto:aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> >
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

 

 

 

after 3 years of trying the positive path and not seeing engagement, he has 
just got the shits with the whole thing and feels like giving the community a 
wake up call. i doubt there is much viewing of any of the social pages beyond 
existing community and in any case no one externally would give a crap.

 

 

 

 


On 30 Jan 2017, at 10:50 AM, Ulrich Stauss mailto:usta...@internode.on.net> > wrote:

>From the GFA Facebook page: “Due to complaints from a vocal few who oppose the 
>facts the last post had been deleted at their request. It's s sad day when the 
>noise of a few drown out the facts however unpalatable they maybe. We cannot 
>move forward until we accept where we are and recognize the need for change in 
>the way we see the current situation and change can only happen with hardwork, 
>burying our heads on the sand because we don't like what we are hearing will 
>achieve nothing.”

Do we really need the dirty washing of one (or more?) frustrated individuals 
displayed on the public shopfront window of the GFA? How is that going to come 
across to (prospective) members and the general public? How embarrassing for 
the organisation and insulting to the volunteers who carry it.

 

This is stuff that needs to be sorted out in the board room, not in public. 
Just floating ideas (in such a negative tone at that) and expecting the 
membership to jump to it is a public display of bad leadership (and in my view 
as good as a resignation letter). Putting meat to those ideas and implementing 
change in an enthusiastic manner is what is needed instead.

 

Ulrich

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Ulrich Stauss
Sent: Sunday, 29 January 2017 22:55
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' 
mailto:aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> >
Subject: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

 

Has somebody in GFA Marketing and Development lost their marbles?

The attached post essentially blaming the membership for “not getting off their 
collective butts” continues a string of similarly negative posts mainly on 
Facebook and has prompted quite a few comments from upset members, several of 
which - including mine - were removed and at least in my case I am now blocked 
from the GFA page.

The same happened to me in response to my remark/question I posted in the 
thread below which I had initially posed in an FB comment on the WGC2017 
Benalla page: the comment was deleted and I was blocked from the page.

 

Rather than blaming the general membership for not magically implementing ideas 
that somebody may have floated at some stage how about some effective 
leadership and change management from whoever posted these rants and blocked me 
from the pages (I am assuming “they” are both the same person).

 

It would also be a good idea to add the name of the person responsible to 
anything they post on behalf of the GFA.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Ulrich

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Ulrich Stauss
Sent: Friday, 20 January 2017 13:36
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' 
mailto:aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> >
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Worlds coverage

 

Does anyone know why the live streaming comes online at the end and not already 
for the Opening Ceremony?

Also, what were the problems initially? The organisers seem to think that it 
was "Due to technical issues, Australia's ancient Internet system" (which I 
think is not good form to post on a public and official web forum) and offered 
another link.

Both streams now seem to work well though at least for me:

 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLmdBix3H_E> 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLmdBix3H_E

 <http://player.5stream.com/16094> http://player.5stream.com/16094

 

Ulrich

-Original Message-

From: Aus-soaring [ <mailto:aus-soari

Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Christopher McDonnell]

Tick or check mark.

-Original Message- 
From: Mark Newton 
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 9:23 PM 
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship? 


> On 30 Jan 2017, at 18:08, Al Borowski  wrote:
> 
>> On 30/01/2017, Mark Newton  wrote:
>> Why do you want ranks?
>> 
>>  - mark
> 
> Because an untrained beginner with 2 hours experience should be given
> different privileges and responsibilities to a trained pilot with
> 2000?
> 

But they aren't "ranks."

Rank denotes hierarchy. 

In the ranked GFA world you've asked about, where you've proposed that a 
qualified pilot sits between a trainee and an instructor, the instructor is a 
higher "rank" than the trained pilot with 2000 hours. Even if the instructor 
only has 200 hours.

I don't think you get rank in any other non-military form of aviation in 
Australia.

Hierarchy is one of GFA's problems, IMHO. Shouldn't be encouraged. 


> Under the GFA system an Open license wouldn't exist. You'd need the
> blessing of the driving school to continue to drive anywhere. If you
> had an accident it would be the responsibility of the driving school.
> If you drove somewhere where an existing driving school was located,
> you'd suddenly fall under that school's control - even if they had no
> idea about your history or personal vehicle.

Pretty much.

I reckon GFAs systems had military influences after WW2 due to the origins of 
the founders and initial intake of members. Chain of command, rank, hierarchies 
of control over subordinates, doctrine issued from HQ with distributed 
implementation. Authority filtering downwards, responsibility filtering 
upwards. All very comfortable to 1940s ex-Army Air Force pilots, they'd slot 
right in.

The rest of civil aviation moved on from that. GFA never did.

   - mark



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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Mark Newton]

> On 30 Jan 2017, at 18:08, Al Borowski  wrote:
> 
>> On 30/01/2017, Mark Newton  wrote:
>> Why do you want ranks?
>> 
>>  - mark
> 
> Because an untrained beginner with 2 hours experience should be given
> different privileges and responsibilities to a trained pilot with
> 2000?
> 

But they aren't "ranks."

Rank denotes hierarchy. 

In the ranked GFA world you've asked about, where you've proposed that a 
qualified pilot sits between a trainee and an instructor, the instructor is a 
higher "rank" than the trained pilot with 2000 hours. Even if the instructor 
only has 200 hours.

I don't think you get rank in any other non-military form of aviation in 
Australia.

Hierarchy is one of GFA's problems, IMHO. Shouldn't be encouraged. 


> Under the GFA system an Open license wouldn't exist. You'd need the
> blessing of the driving school to continue to drive anywhere. If you
> had an accident it would be the responsibility of the driving school.
> If you drove somewhere where an existing driving school was located,
> you'd suddenly fall under that school's control - even if they had no
> idea about your history or personal vehicle.

Pretty much.

I reckon GFAs systems had military influences after WW2 due to the origins of 
the founders and initial intake of members. Chain of command, rank, hierarchies 
of control over subordinates, doctrine issued from HQ with distributed 
implementation. Authority filtering downwards, responsibility filtering 
upwards. All very comfortable to 1940s ex-Army Air Force pilots, they'd slot 
right in.

The rest of civil aviation moved on from that. GFA never did.

   - mark



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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Al Borowski]

On 30/01/2017, Mark Newton  wrote:
> Why do you want ranks?
>
>   - mark

Because an untrained beginner with 2 hours experience should be given
different privileges and responsibilities to a trained pilot with
2000?

I learned how to drive on a Student license, and stopped progressing
through the licensing system once I received my Open. I don't need to
I had no need or desire to be a Driving Instructor myself.

Under the GFA system an Open license wouldn't exist. You'd need the
blessing of the driving school to continue to drive anywhere. If you
had an accident it would be the responsibility of the driving school.
If you drove somewhere where an existing driving school was located,
you'd suddenly fall under that school's control - even if they had no
idea about your history or personal vehicle.

Cheers,

Al


>
>
>> On Jan 30, 2017, at 3:20 PM, Peter Brookman 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I think the rank between Student & Instructor would be referred to as Solo
>> Pilot or Level (1 or 2) Independent operator.
>>
>> -Original Message- From: Al Borowski
>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 12:50 PM
>> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?
>>
>> On 30/01/2017, Richard Frawley  wrote:
>>> i assume most people know that gliding requires a minimum membership size
>>> to
>>> keep the cost and freedoms we enjoy possible.
>>>
>>> if you have not noticed we are actually under the minimum membership for
>>> sustainability.
>>>
>>> This is a problem anyone who wants reasonable continuance needs to own
>>> and
>>> assist with.
>>
>> I haven't checked in a few years, is it still impossible for a few
>> likeminded qualified pilots to form their own informal "club", buy a
>> 2nd hand glider and just fly it & pay to get it maintained, without
>> needing to bother with setting up a formal club with instructors etc
>> (unlike almost every other sport in existence)?
>>
>> Is it still impossible to buy a motorglider and fly it like an RAA or
>> PPL would fly their power plane?
>>
>> The GFA club model always struck me as missing a "qualified pilot"
>> rank between "Student" and "Instructor" - which is weird as it should
>> be the biggest group.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Al
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Mike Borgelt]

Or the sport in general.

Mike

> On 30 Jan 2017, at 2:44 PM, Mark Newton  wrote:
> 
> I’m alright Jack, too.
> 
> Not exactly to the collective benefit of glider pilots though, is it?
> 
>  - mark
> 
> 
>> On Jan 30, 2017, at 5:42 PM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
>> 
>> lucky i have a PPL... i guess i have options 
>> 
 On 30 Jan 2017, at 3:26 PM, Mark Newton  wrote:
 
 On Jan 30, 2017, at 2:40 PM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
 
 why register it [an electric self-launcher] as a glider?
>>> 
>>> Because the GFA system only authorizes pilots trained by GFA to fly 
>>> GFA-registered gliders that have been maintained under the GFA 
>>> airworthiness system.
>>> 
>>> So if you register it as a light aircraft, you can’t fly it until you make 
>>> it airworthy to GA standards, and acquire (at least) an RPL.
>>> 
>>> The GFA syllabus is not aligned with the RPL syllabus, so that means you 
>>> have to pay a CASA school to be trained all over again to legally fly the 
>>> aircraft that you would be able to fly if you were under the control of a 
>>> GFA CFI as a member of a GFA club (typical cost for a GA RPL syllabus is 
>>> about $7000, plus whatever you need to pay to get a cross-country 
>>> endorsement). 
>>> 
>>> If you already have a pilot license and you’ve never encountered GFA 
>>> before, you might be able to buy an electric self-launcher, register it GA, 
>>> and fly it under an RPL. 
>>> 
>>> But only if it’s brand new. If it has previously been maintained under the 
>>> GFA form-2 system, it won’t be airworthy to GA standards, and probably 
>>> couldn’t be flown at all by anyone regardless of their license status. 
>>> You’d have to pay a LAME a considerable amount of money to bring it under 
>>> the GA maintenance umbrella and issue it with a GA maintenance release.
>>> 
>>> And once you’ve done that, GFA pilots without CASA licenses wouldn’t be 
>>> able to fly it anymore, so you’d have extreme difficulty ever selling it 
>>> again afterwards.
>>> 
 Is there a choice?
>>> 
>>> In practical terms: No.
>>> 
>>> 
 its has over 200Klm battery range and it takes off from the ground, sounds 
 like a light aircraft to me
>>> 
>>> Then only a tiny minority of GFA members (who have RPL or PPL CASA 
>>> licenses) can fly it.
>>> 
>>> That doesn’t sound like a particularly sustainable outcome for gliding, 
>>> does it?
>>> 
>>> It’s certainly not the kind of thing that half a dozen qualified glider 
>>> pilots who aren’t club members are going to form a syndicate around.
>>> 
>>> - mark
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Al Borowski]

On 30/01/2017, Peter Brookman  wrote:
> I think the rank between Student & Instructor would be referred to as Solo
> Pilot or Level (1 or 2) Independent operator.

In GA or RAA it would be a PPL or Recreational Certificate, where you
are recognized as being responsible for your own operations and can
plan and fly without the blessing of an instructor.

It seems like level 2 Independent Operator is the closest thing to an equivalent

"Unlike the Level 1 Independent Operator authority, where club responsibility of
independent operations is of primary importance, holders of Level 2
Independent Operator authority are solely responsible for all aspects
of their operations when operating independently. This includes
airways clearances, tower clearances, SAR notification and
accident/incident reporting."

This requires 100 hours in gliders (10% of powered time counts). You
can get a PPL in 40 hours, or take paying non-pilot members of the
public for joyflights in 50. It also needs CFI approval and club
committee approval, and must be re-approved by your CFI each year. A
PPL or RAA cert is (generally) yours for life.

Cheers,

Al


>
> -Original Message-
> From: Al Borowski
> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 12:50 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?
>
> On 30/01/2017, Richard Frawley  wrote:
>> i assume most people know that gliding requires a minimum membership size
>>
>> to
>> keep the cost and freedoms we enjoy possible.
>>
>> if you have not noticed we are actually under the minimum membership for
>> sustainability.
>>
>> This is a problem anyone who wants reasonable continuance needs to own
>> and
>> assist with.
>
> I haven't checked in a few years, is it still impossible for a few
> likeminded qualified pilots to form their own informal "club", buy a
> 2nd hand glider and just fly it & pay to get it maintained, without
> needing to bother with setting up a formal club with instructors etc
> (unlike almost every other sport in existence)?
>
> Is it still impossible to buy a motorglider and fly it like an RAA or
> PPL would fly their power plane?
>
> The GFA club model always struck me as missing a "qualified pilot"
> rank between "Student" and "Instructor" - which is weird as it should
> be the biggest group.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Al
> ___
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> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
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>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Mark Newton]

I’m alright Jack, too.

Not exactly to the collective benefit of glider pilots though, is it?

  - mark


> On Jan 30, 2017, at 5:42 PM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
> 
> lucky i have a PPL... i guess i have options 
> 
>> On 30 Jan 2017, at 3:26 PM, Mark Newton  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Jan 30, 2017, at 2:40 PM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
>>> 
>>> why register it [an electric self-launcher] as a glider?
>> 
>> Because the GFA system only authorizes pilots trained by GFA to fly 
>> GFA-registered gliders that have been maintained under the GFA airworthiness 
>> system.
>> 
>> So if you register it as a light aircraft, you can’t fly it until you make 
>> it airworthy to GA standards, and acquire (at least) an RPL.
>> 
>> The GFA syllabus is not aligned with the RPL syllabus, so that means you 
>> have to pay a CASA school to be trained all over again to legally fly the 
>> aircraft that you would be able to fly if you were under the control of a 
>> GFA CFI as a member of a GFA club (typical cost for a GA RPL syllabus is 
>> about $7000, plus whatever you need to pay to get a cross-country 
>> endorsement). 
>> 
>> If you already have a pilot license and you’ve never encountered GFA before, 
>> you might be able to buy an electric self-launcher, register it GA, and fly 
>> it under an RPL. 
>> 
>> But only if it’s brand new. If it has previously been maintained under the 
>> GFA form-2 system, it won’t be airworthy to GA standards, and probably 
>> couldn’t be flown at all by anyone regardless of their license status. You’d 
>> have to pay a LAME a considerable amount of money to bring it under the GA 
>> maintenance umbrella and issue it with a GA maintenance release.
>> 
>> And once you’ve done that, GFA pilots without CASA licenses wouldn’t be able 
>> to fly it anymore, so you’d have extreme difficulty ever selling it again 
>> afterwards.
>> 
>>> Is there a choice?
>> 
>> In practical terms: No.
>> 
>> 
>>> its has over 200Klm battery range and it takes off from the ground, sounds 
>>> like a light aircraft to me
>> 
>> Then only a tiny minority of GFA members (who have RPL or PPL CASA licenses) 
>> can fly it.
>> 
>> That doesn’t sound like a particularly sustainable outcome for gliding, does 
>> it?
>> 
>> It’s certainly not the kind of thing that half a dozen qualified glider 
>> pilots who aren’t club members are going to form a syndicate around.
>> 
>> - mark
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Richard Frawley]

lucky i have a PPL... i guess i have options 

> On 30 Jan 2017, at 3:26 PM, Mark Newton  wrote:
> 
>> On Jan 30, 2017, at 2:40 PM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
>> 
>> why register it [an electric self-launcher] as a glider?
> 
> Because the GFA system only authorizes pilots trained by GFA to fly 
> GFA-registered gliders that have been maintained under the GFA airworthiness 
> system.
> 
> So if you register it as a light aircraft, you can’t fly it until you make it 
> airworthy to GA standards, and acquire (at least) an RPL.
> 
> The GFA syllabus is not aligned with the RPL syllabus, so that means you have 
> to pay a CASA school to be trained all over again to legally fly the aircraft 
> that you would be able to fly if you were under the control of a GFA CFI as a 
> member of a GFA club (typical cost for a GA RPL syllabus is about $7000, plus 
> whatever you need to pay to get a cross-country endorsement). 
> 
> If you already have a pilot license and you’ve never encountered GFA before, 
> you might be able to buy an electric self-launcher, register it GA, and fly 
> it under an RPL. 
> 
> But only if it’s brand new. If it has previously been maintained under the 
> GFA form-2 system, it won’t be airworthy to GA standards, and probably 
> couldn’t be flown at all by anyone regardless of their license status. You’d 
> have to pay a LAME a considerable amount of money to bring it under the GA 
> maintenance umbrella and issue it with a GA maintenance release.
> 
> And once you’ve done that, GFA pilots without CASA licenses wouldn’t be able 
> to fly it anymore, so you’d have extreme difficulty ever selling it again 
> afterwards.
> 
>> Is there a choice?
> 
> In practical terms: No.
> 
> 
>> its has over 200Klm battery range and it takes off from the ground, sounds 
>> like a light aircraft to me
> 
> Then only a tiny minority of GFA members (who have RPL or PPL CASA licenses) 
> can fly it.
> 
> That doesn’t sound like a particularly sustainable outcome for gliding, does 
> it?
> 
> It’s certainly not the kind of thing that half a dozen qualified glider 
> pilots who aren’t club members are going to form a syndicate around.
> 
>  - mark
> 
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Richard Frawley]

try it and see what happens. 

> On 30 Jan 2017, at 2:47 PM, Mike Borgelt  wrote:
> 
> I agree, nobody would be bothered trying to post anything mildly critical of 
> the GFA or its policies on an official GFA site.
> I know for sure such articles have been censored from the magazine.
> 
> Mike
> 
>> On 30 Jan 2017, at 11:43 AM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
>> 
>> it could do, I have not seen a single remediation on that list yet and I 
>> doubt anyone could be bothered
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 30 Jan 2017, at 2:42 pm, Mike Borgelt  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Once again, many thanks to Simon Hackett and Mark Newton for making this 
>>> place possible and for maintaining it.
>>> I bet this discussion isn't running over at the official Pravda site.
>>> 
>>> Mike
>>> 
> On 30 Jan 2017, at 11:28 AM, Mark Newton  wrote:
> 
> On Jan 30, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
> 
> its a wonderful country that we have so much choice
 
 For gliders? How? Where? It’s GFA or nothing.
 
 
> in 20 years time, gliding will not be what it is today.
> Those that want to soar and not be in ‘club’ will be able to do so.
 
 People have been calling for that since at least 1999. GFA has actively 
 stood in the way of it happening. If you can send up a flare when they 
 change their mind and start supporting it, that’d be great.
 
> Why put a GP15 into glider category, why not have it as light aircraft?
 
 CASA gets upset if you deliberately turn off the only running engine in a 
 light aircraft.
 
 - mark
 
 
 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Mark Newton]

Why do you want ranks?

  - mark


> On Jan 30, 2017, at 3:20 PM, Peter Brookman  
> wrote:
> 
> I think the rank between Student & Instructor would be referred to as Solo 
> Pilot or Level (1 or 2) Independent operator.
> 
> -Original Message- From: Al Borowski
> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 12:50 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?
> 
> On 30/01/2017, Richard Frawley  wrote:
>> i assume most people know that gliding requires a minimum membership size to
>> keep the cost and freedoms we enjoy possible.
>> 
>> if you have not noticed we are actually under the minimum membership for
>> sustainability.
>> 
>> This is a problem anyone who wants reasonable continuance needs to own and
>> assist with.
> 
> I haven't checked in a few years, is it still impossible for a few
> likeminded qualified pilots to form their own informal "club", buy a
> 2nd hand glider and just fly it & pay to get it maintained, without
> needing to bother with setting up a formal club with instructors etc
> (unlike almost every other sport in existence)?
> 
> Is it still impossible to buy a motorglider and fly it like an RAA or
> PPL would fly their power plane?
> 
> The GFA club model always struck me as missing a "qualified pilot"
> rank between "Student" and "Instructor" - which is weird as it should
> be the biggest group.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Al
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Peter Brookman]

I think the rank between Student & Instructor would be referred to as Solo 
Pilot or Level (1 or 2) Independent operator.


-Original Message- 
From: Al Borowski

Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 12:50 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

On 30/01/2017, Richard Frawley  wrote:
i assume most people know that gliding requires a minimum membership size 
to

keep the cost and freedoms we enjoy possible.

if you have not noticed we are actually under the minimum membership for
sustainability.

This is a problem anyone who wants reasonable continuance needs to own and
assist with.


I haven't checked in a few years, is it still impossible for a few
likeminded qualified pilots to form their own informal "club", buy a
2nd hand glider and just fly it & pay to get it maintained, without
needing to bother with setting up a formal club with instructors etc
(unlike almost every other sport in existence)?

Is it still impossible to buy a motorglider and fly it like an RAA or
PPL would fly their power plane?

The GFA club model always struck me as missing a "qualified pilot"
rank between "Student" and "Instructor" - which is weird as it should
be the biggest group.

Cheers,

Al
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Mark Newton]

On Jan 30, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Christopher McDonnell  
wrote:
> 
> I spent some time outside the GFA until the hoops were made nearly impossible 
> to jump through.

Well, of course the hoops were nearly impossible to jump through:  GFA lobbied 
against the regulatory reforms that’d have made it easy.

(if I get a glider rating on my CASA Part 61 license, why isn’t it valid in 
Australia? You don’t think GFA had anything to do with that little bit of 
regulatory bastardry?)

  - mark


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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Mark Newton]

On Jan 30, 2017, at 2:40 PM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
> 
> why register it [an electric self-launcher] as a glider? 

Because the GFA system only authorizes pilots trained by GFA to fly 
GFA-registered gliders that have been maintained under the GFA airworthiness 
system.

So if you register it as a light aircraft, you can’t fly it until you make it 
airworthy to GA standards, and acquire (at least) an RPL.

The GFA syllabus is not aligned with the RPL syllabus, so that means you have 
to pay a CASA school to be trained all over again to legally fly the aircraft 
that you would be able to fly if you were under the control of a GFA CFI as a 
member of a GFA club (typical cost for a GA RPL syllabus is about $7000, plus 
whatever you need to pay to get a cross-country endorsement). 

If you already have a pilot license and you’ve never encountered GFA before, 
you might be able to buy an electric self-launcher, register it GA, and fly it 
under an RPL. 

But only if it’s brand new. If it has previously been maintained under the GFA 
form-2 system, it won’t be airworthy to GA standards, and probably couldn’t be 
flown at all by anyone regardless of their license status. You’d have to pay a 
LAME a considerable amount of money to bring it under the GA maintenance 
umbrella and issue it with a GA maintenance release.

And once you’ve done that, GFA pilots without CASA licenses wouldn’t be able to 
fly it anymore, so you’d have extreme difficulty ever selling it again 
afterwards.

> Is there a choice?

In practical terms: No.


> its has over 200Klm battery range and it takes off from the ground, sounds 
> like a light aircraft to me

Then only a tiny minority of GFA members (who have RPL or PPL CASA licenses) 
can fly it.

That doesn’t sound like a particularly sustainable outcome for gliding, does it?

It’s certainly not the kind of thing that half a dozen qualified glider pilots 
who aren’t club members are going to form a syndicate around.

  - mark


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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Mike Borgelt]

I agree, nobody would be bothered trying to post anything mildly critical of 
the GFA or its policies on an official GFA site.
I know for sure such articles have been censored from the magazine.

Mike

> On 30 Jan 2017, at 11:43 AM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
> 
> it could do, I have not seen a single remediation on that list yet and I 
> doubt anyone could be bothered
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 30 Jan 2017, at 2:42 pm, Mike Borgelt  wrote:
>> 
>> Once again, many thanks to Simon Hackett and Mark Newton for making this 
>> place possible and for maintaining it.
>> I bet this discussion isn't running over at the official Pravda site.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
 On 30 Jan 2017, at 11:28 AM, Mark Newton  wrote:
 
 On Jan 30, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
 
 its a wonderful country that we have so much choice
>>> 
>>> For gliders? How? Where? It’s GFA or nothing.
>>> 
>>> 
 in 20 years time, gliding will not be what it is today.
 Those that want to soar and not be in ‘club’ will be able to do so.
>>> 
>>> People have been calling for that since at least 1999. GFA has actively 
>>> stood in the way of it happening. If you can send up a flare when they 
>>> change their mind and start supporting it, that’d be great.
>>> 
 Why put a GP15 into glider category, why not have it as light aircraft?
>>> 
>>> CASA gets upset if you deliberately turn off the only running engine in a 
>>> light aircraft.
>>> 
>>> - mark
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Richard Frawley]

it could do, I have not seen a single remediation on that list yet and I doubt 
anyone could be bothered





> On 30 Jan 2017, at 2:42 pm, Mike Borgelt  wrote:
> 
> Once again, many thanks to Simon Hackett and Mark Newton for making this 
> place possible and for maintaining it.
> I bet this discussion isn't running over at the official Pravda site.
> 
> Mike
> 
>> On 30 Jan 2017, at 11:28 AM, Mark Newton  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Jan 30, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
>>> 
>>> its a wonderful country that we have so much choice
>> 
>> For gliders? How? Where? It’s GFA or nothing.
>> 
>> 
>>> in 20 years time, gliding will not be what it is today.
>>> Those that want to soar and not be in ‘club’ will be able to do so.
>> 
>> People have been calling for that since at least 1999. GFA has actively 
>> stood in the way of it happening. If you can send up a flare when they 
>> change their mind and start supporting it, that’d be great.
>> 
>>> Why put a GP15 into glider category, why not have it as light aircraft?
>> 
>> CASA gets upset if you deliberately turn off the only running engine in a 
>> light aircraft.
>> 
>> - mark
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Mike Borgelt]

Once again, many thanks to Simon Hackett and Mark Newton for making this place 
possible and for maintaining it.
I bet this discussion isn't running over at the official Pravda site.

Mike

> On 30 Jan 2017, at 11:28 AM, Mark Newton  wrote:
> 
>> On Jan 30, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
>> 
>> its a wonderful country that we have so much choice
> 
> For gliders? How? Where? It’s GFA or nothing.
> 
> 
>> in 20 years time, gliding will not be what it is today.
>> Those that want to soar and not be in ‘club’ will be able to do so.
> 
> People have been calling for that since at least 1999. GFA has actively stood 
> in the way of it happening. If you can send up a flare when they change their 
> mind and start supporting it, that’d be great.
> 
>> Why put a GP15 into glider category, why not have it as light aircraft?
> 
> CASA gets upset if you deliberately turn off the only running engine in a 
> light aircraft.
> 
>  - mark
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Richard Frawley]

that is a  period of change, it will be gradual as most things are










> On 30 Jan 2017, at 2:33 pm, Mike Borgelt  wrote:
> 
> In 20 years most of the current or would be GFA membership will be dead or in 
> nursing homes.
> If this freedom will be available in 20 years why is it not available now?
> 
> It is a lie that GFA has any significant freedoms or low cost. Gliding would 
> be far better off by relinquishing any regulatory roles, thus easing the 
> volunteer workload, much of which is unnecessary "make work" caused by the 
> present setup.
> GFA can then run the sporting aspects of badges, records and competitions and 
> be a political lobbyist to make sure CASA rules are actually workable.
> 
> BTW way there is a current CASA discussion paper on medical certification for 
> aviation. Don't think this will not affect your medical certification for 
> gliding as one of the options is to extend the RAMPC  to all of sport 
> aviation. This involves a medical certification by your GP that you are fit 
> to the same medical standard as that for a PPL. If not, you must be assessed 
> by a DAME. This has the potential to stop quite a few glider pilots from 
> flying solo, I think.
> 
> Mike
> 
> On 30 Jan 2017, at 11:12 AM, Richard Frawley  > wrote:
> 
>> its a wonderful country that we have so much choice
>> 
>> in 20 years time, gliding will not be what it is today.
>> 
>> Those that want to soar and not be in ‘club’ will be able to do so. 
>> 
>> Why put a GP15 into glider category, why not have it as light aircraft?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 30 Jan 2017, at 1:59 pm, Mark Newton >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Jan 30, 2017, at 11:09 AM, Richard Frawley >> > wrote:
 
 in time my view is the sport will change. electric self launchers and more 
 ownership will be the norm. small clubs will die. big clubs will go 
 commercial. it will take 15 years to migrate to a new model.
>>> 
>>> In my direct observation, people who are exposed (particularly early in 
>>> their flying career) to the command-and-control mentality of gliding don’t 
>>> buy $200,000 electric self-launch gliders. They join RAAus instead, where 
>>> the basic pilot certificate is equivalent to a GFA Level 2 Independent 
>>> Operator rating which almost nobody in gliding holds, and buy Kitfoxes or 
>>> Jabirus or SportStars.
>>> 
>>> Of all the trainees I had as a GFA L2 instructor, and all the AEFs I 
>>> introduced to the sport, far more of them have gone on to PPL, RPL and 
>>> RAAus than GPC. I’ve notched up 3 PPL and RAAus pilot certificates in the 
>>> last five years by giving people first flights in my RV-6, which fills me 
>>> with immense satisfaction; In contrast, I feel like I busted my guts out 
>>> for a decade in GFA to simply maintain the status quo. 
>>> 
>>> So I’m not a member anymore. Too hard, too many alternatives.
>>> 
>>> (maybe, as someone who has drifted away, it’d be worth GFA’s while to 
>>> consult with people like me: I’m clearly a person who’s been prepared to 
>>> invest significant effort in the past, and now I’m not, maybe they’d like 
>>> to understand why)
>>> 
>>> Anyway:
>>> 
>>> My view of 2017 GFA is that it’s a top-heavy organization whose primary 
>>> purpose is to distribute the cost of training, regulation and 
>>> administration for a very small number of aircraft owners and competition 
>>> pilots across a larger number of members. If you’re not an aircraft owner 
>>> or competition pilot, your duty and function as a GFA member is little more 
>>> than to pay your membership fees, so that they can be used to subsidize 
>>> those who are aircraft owners or competition pilots, so they can keep doing 
>>> what they enjoy doing.
>>> 
>>> Which is fine, as far as it goes — There’s nothing wrong with that, as long 
>>> as it’s transparent, and the people involved in it aren’t in denial about 
>>> it.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I think it’s prudent to view the future of gliding and the future of GFA as 
>>> two independent concepts.
>>> 
>>> The largest aviation marketplace on the planet has six decades of 
>>> demonstrated track record to show that you don’t need a national private 
>>> quasi-regulator to tell everyone how to fly gliders: The real regulator 
>>> already does that job at least as well.
>>> 
>>> Richard is speculating about a future in which the club scene changes and 
>>> GFA remains roughly the same. A more realistic alternative, in my view, is 
>>> a future in which the GFA shrinks to become a membership-optional 
>>> FAI-sanctioned competition administration body like the SSA, and much of 
>>> the rest of their day-to-day functions are overseen by CASA. Give it 
>>> another decade worth of retirements and membership shrinkage, and GFA 
>>> simply won’t have the manpower to be effective or safe for many of the 
>>> functions that it fulfills right now even if it st

Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Richard Frawley]

why register it as a glider? 

Is there a choice?

its has over 200Klm battery range and it takes off from the ground, sounds like 
a light aircraft to me






> On 30 Jan 2017, at 2:28 pm, Mark Newton  wrote:
> 
> On Jan 30, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
>> 
>> its a wonderful country that we have so much choice
> 
> For gliders? How? Where? It’s GFA or nothing.
> 
> 
>> in 20 years time, gliding will not be what it is today.
>> Those that want to soar and not be in ‘club’ will be able to do so. 
> 
> People have been calling for that since at least 1999. GFA has actively stood 
> in the way of it happening. If you can send up a flare when they change their 
> mind and start supporting it, that’d be great.
> 
>> Why put a GP15 into glider category, why not have it as light aircraft?
> 
> CASA gets upset if you deliberately turn off the only running engine in a 
> light aircraft.
> 
>  - mark
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Christopher McDonnell]

I spent some time outside the GFA until the hoops were made nearly 
impossible to jump through.


Chris

-Original Message- 
From: Mark Newton

Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 1:28 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

On Jan 30, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Richard Frawley  wrote:


its a wonderful country that we have so much choice


For gliders? How? Where? It’s GFA or nothing.



in 20 years time, gliding will not be what it is today.
Those that want to soar and not be in ‘club’ will be able to do so.


People have been calling for that since at least 1999. GFA has actively 
stood in the way of it happening. If you can send up a flare when they 
change their mind and start supporting it, that’d be great.



Why put a GP15 into glider category, why not have it as light aircraft?


CASA gets upset if you deliberately turn off the only running engine in a 
light aircraft.


 - mark



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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Mike Borgelt]

In 20 years most of the current or would be GFA membership will be dead or in 
nursing homes.
If this freedom will be available in 20 years why is it not available now?

It is a lie that GFA has any significant freedoms or low cost. Gliding would be 
far better off by relinquishing any regulatory roles, thus easing the volunteer 
workload, much of which is unnecessary "make work" caused by the present setup.
GFA can then run the sporting aspects of badges, records and competitions and 
be a political lobbyist to make sure CASA rules are actually workable.

BTW way there is a current CASA discussion paper on medical certification for 
aviation. Don't think this will not affect your medical certification for 
gliding as one of the options is to extend the RAMPC  to all of sport aviation. 
This involves a medical certification by your GP that you are fit to the same 
medical standard as that for a PPL. If not, you must be assessed by a DAME. 
This has the potential to stop quite a few glider pilots from flying solo, I 
think.

Mike

> On 30 Jan 2017, at 11:12 AM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
> 
> its a wonderful country that we have so much choice
> 
> in 20 years time, gliding will not be what it is today.
> 
> Those that want to soar and not be in ‘club’ will be able to do so. 
> 
> Why put a GP15 into glider category, why not have it as light aircraft?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 30 Jan 2017, at 1:59 pm, Mark Newton  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Jan 30, 2017, at 11:09 AM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
>>> 
>>> in time my view is the sport will change. electric self launchers and more 
>>> ownership will be the norm. small clubs will die. big clubs will go 
>>> commercial. it will take 15 years to migrate to a new model.
>> 
>> In my direct observation, people who are exposed (particularly early in 
>> their flying career) to the command-and-control mentality of gliding don’t 
>> buy $200,000 electric self-launch gliders. They join RAAus instead, where 
>> the basic pilot certificate is equivalent to a GFA Level 2 Independent 
>> Operator rating which almost nobody in gliding holds, and buy Kitfoxes or 
>> Jabirus or SportStars.
>> 
>> Of all the trainees I had as a GFA L2 instructor, and all the AEFs I 
>> introduced to the sport, far more of them have gone on to PPL, RPL and RAAus 
>> than GPC. I’ve notched up 3 PPL and RAAus pilot certificates in the last 
>> five years by giving people first flights in my RV-6, which fills me with 
>> immense satisfaction; In contrast, I feel like I busted my guts out for a 
>> decade in GFA to simply maintain the status quo. 
>> 
>> So I’m not a member anymore. Too hard, too many alternatives.
>> 
>> (maybe, as someone who has drifted away, it’d be worth GFA’s while to 
>> consult with people like me: I’m clearly a person who’s been prepared to 
>> invest significant effort in the past, and now I’m not, maybe they’d like to 
>> understand why)
>> 
>> Anyway:
>> 
>> My view of 2017 GFA is that it’s a top-heavy organization whose primary 
>> purpose is to distribute the cost of training, regulation and administration 
>> for a very small number of aircraft owners and competition pilots across a 
>> larger number of members. If you’re not an aircraft owner or competition 
>> pilot, your duty and function as a GFA member is little more than to pay 
>> your membership fees, so that they can be used to subsidize those who are 
>> aircraft owners or competition pilots, so they can keep doing what they 
>> enjoy doing.
>> 
>> Which is fine, as far as it goes — There’s nothing wrong with that, as long 
>> as it’s transparent, and the people involved in it aren’t in denial about it.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I think it’s prudent to view the future of gliding and the future of GFA as 
>> two independent concepts.
>> 
>> The largest aviation marketplace on the planet has six decades of 
>> demonstrated track record to show that you don’t need a national private 
>> quasi-regulator to tell everyone how to fly gliders: The real regulator 
>> already does that job at least as well.
>> 
>> Richard is speculating about a future in which the club scene changes and 
>> GFA remains roughly the same. A more realistic alternative, in my view, is a 
>> future in which the GFA shrinks to become a membership-optional 
>> FAI-sanctioned competition administration body like the SSA, and much of the 
>> rest of their day-to-day functions are overseen by CASA. Give it another 
>> decade worth of retirements and membership shrinkage, and GFA simply won’t 
>> have the manpower to be effective or safe for many of the functions that it 
>> fulfills right now even if it still has a million bucks in the bank, and the 
>> regulator will simply take them off GFA’s plate.
>> 
>> It may very well be that the most important work the GFA could be doing is 
>> to influence CASA to make that almost inevitable transition agreeable to GFA 
>> members.
>> 
>> Working with CASA to make sure that the GPC syllabus is a qualification fo

Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Mark Newton]

Yes. We did that at AUGC every year for the Flinders Ranges trip at Rawnsley 
Park.

  - mark


> On Jan 30, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Mike Borgelt  wrote:
> 
> Isn't a proposed gliding site also meant to be approved by an RTO Ops?



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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Mark Newton]

On Jan 30, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
> 
> its a wonderful country that we have so much choice

For gliders? How? Where? It’s GFA or nothing.


> in 20 years time, gliding will not be what it is today.
> Those that want to soar and not be in ‘club’ will be able to do so. 

People have been calling for that since at least 1999. GFA has actively stood 
in the way of it happening. If you can send up a flare when they change their 
mind and start supporting it, that’d be great.

> Why put a GP15 into glider category, why not have it as light aircraft?

CASA gets upset if you deliberately turn off the only running engine in a light 
aircraft.

  - mark



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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Justin Sinclair]

There is an update on Facebook,

Thanks Drew.

Thanks John for all of your hard work, enjoy your rest, I hope you find fun in 
the sky again.

JJ

Justin Sinclair
17 Queen St
Scarborough Qld

0421061811

Sent from my iPad

On 30 Jan. 2017, at 1:18 pm, Mike Borgelt 
mailto:mborg...@internode.on.net>> wrote:

Isn't a proposed gliding site also meant to be approved by an RTO Ops?
Mike


On 30 Jan 2017, at 10:57 AM, Mark Newton 
mailto:new...@atdot.dotat.org>> wrote:

Independent ops ratings are issued by club CFIs.

They require clubs to have training panels and chief flying instructors, which 
is the absolute opposite of what Al was asking about.

It remains impossible in the GFA system for a bunch of qualified pilots who 
aren't gliding club members to form a syndicate for a glider which they can 
operate under their own recognizance.

It is possible in literally every other form of Aviation in Australia. In most 
forms of aviation, it's the only way to form a syndicate.

  - mark


On Jan 30, 2017, at 1:42 PM, Richard Frawley 
mailto:rjfraw...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Thats what the GPC is.have you not been exposed to that by your club?

Anyone can buy a self launcher and with the right Independant Ops rating you 
can fly it without anyone else needed.

I strongly suspect that as self launch electrics in particular become more 
common (see GPGliders.com - GP15 as what is now 
possible), independent operations will become far more common (or group 
independentgo flying with a few mates anywhere).

I also suspect that this will be be the long term future of the sport (say 15 - 
20 years from now).









On 30 Jan 2017, at 1:20 pm, Al Borowski 
mailto:al.borow...@gmail.com>> wrote:

On 30/01/2017, Richard Frawley 
mailto:rjfraw...@gmail.com>> wrote:
i assume most people know that gliding requires a minimum membership size to
keep the cost and freedoms we enjoy possible.

if you have not noticed we are actually under the minimum membership for
sustainability.

This is a problem anyone who wants reasonable continuance needs to own and
assist with.

I haven't checked in a few years, is it still impossible for a few
likeminded qualified pilots to form their own informal "club", buy a
2nd hand glider and just fly it & pay to get it maintained, without
needing to bother with setting up a formal club with instructors etc
(unlike almost every other sport in existence)?

Is it still impossible to buy a motorglider and fly it like an RAA or
PPL would fly their power plane?

The GFA club model always struck me as missing a "qualified pilot"
rank between "Student" and "Instructor" - which is weird as it should
be the biggest group.

Cheers,

Al
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Mike Borgelt]

Isn't a proposed gliding site also meant to be approved by an RTO Ops?
Mike


> On 30 Jan 2017, at 10:57 AM, Mark Newton  wrote:
> 
> Independent ops ratings are issued by club CFIs.
> 
> They require clubs to have training panels and chief flying instructors, 
> which is the absolute opposite of what Al was asking about.
> 
> It remains impossible in the GFA system for a bunch of qualified pilots who 
> aren’t gliding club members to form a syndicate for a glider which they can 
> operate under their own recognizance. 
> 
> It is possible in literally every other form of Aviation in Australia. In 
> most forms of aviation, it’s the only way to form a syndicate.
> 
>   - mark
> 
> 
>> On Jan 30, 2017, at 1:42 PM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
>> 
>> Thats what the GPC is…..have you not been exposed to that by your club?
>> 
>> Anyone can buy a self launcher and with the right Independant Ops rating you 
>> can fly it without anyone else needed.
>> 
>> I strongly suspect that as self launch electrics in particular become more 
>> common (see GPGliders.com - GP15 as what is now possible), independent 
>> operations will become far more common (or group independent….go flying with 
>> a few mates anywhere).
>> 
>> I also suspect that this will be be the long term future of the sport (say 
>> 15 - 20 years from now).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 30 Jan 2017, at 1:20 pm, Al Borowski  wrote:
>>> 
 On 30/01/2017, Richard Frawley  wrote:
 i assume most people know that gliding requires a minimum membership size 
 to
 keep the cost and freedoms we enjoy possible.
 
 if you have not noticed we are actually under the minimum membership for
 sustainability.
 
 This is a problem anyone who wants reasonable continuance needs to own and
 assist with.
>>> 
>>> I haven't checked in a few years, is it still impossible for a few
>>> likeminded qualified pilots to form their own informal "club", buy a
>>> 2nd hand glider and just fly it & pay to get it maintained, without
>>> needing to bother with setting up a formal club with instructors etc
>>> (unlike almost every other sport in existence)?
>>> 
>>> Is it still impossible to buy a motorglider and fly it like an RAA or
>>> PPL would fly their power plane?
>>> 
>>> The GFA club model always struck me as missing a "qualified pilot"
>>> rank between "Student" and "Instructor" - which is weird as it should
>>> be the biggest group.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Al
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>> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Richard Frawley]

its a wonderful country that we have so much choice

in 20 years time, gliding will not be what it is today.

Those that want to soar and not be in ‘club’ will be able to do so. 

Why put a GP15 into glider category, why not have it as light aircraft?












> On 30 Jan 2017, at 1:59 pm, Mark Newton  wrote:
> 
> On Jan 30, 2017, at 11:09 AM, Richard Frawley  > wrote:
>> 
>> in time my view is the sport will change. electric self launchers and more 
>> ownership will be the norm. small clubs will die. big clubs will go 
>> commercial. it will take 15 years to migrate to a new model.
> 
> In my direct observation, people who are exposed (particularly early in their 
> flying career) to the command-and-control mentality of gliding don’t buy 
> $200,000 electric self-launch gliders. They join RAAus instead, where the 
> basic pilot certificate is equivalent to a GFA Level 2 Independent Operator 
> rating which almost nobody in gliding holds, and buy Kitfoxes or Jabirus or 
> SportStars.
> 
> Of all the trainees I had as a GFA L2 instructor, and all the AEFs I 
> introduced to the sport, far more of them have gone on to PPL, RPL and RAAus 
> than GPC. I’ve notched up 3 PPL and RAAus pilot certificates in the last five 
> years by giving people first flights in my RV-6, which fills me with immense 
> satisfaction; In contrast, I feel like I busted my guts out for a decade in 
> GFA to simply maintain the status quo. 
> 
> So I’m not a member anymore. Too hard, too many alternatives.
> 
> (maybe, as someone who has drifted away, it’d be worth GFA’s while to consult 
> with people like me: I’m clearly a person who’s been prepared to invest 
> significant effort in the past, and now I’m not, maybe they’d like to 
> understand why)
> 
> Anyway:
> 
> My view of 2017 GFA is that it’s a top-heavy organization whose primary 
> purpose is to distribute the cost of training, regulation and administration 
> for a very small number of aircraft owners and competition pilots across a 
> larger number of members. If you’re not an aircraft owner or competition 
> pilot, your duty and function as a GFA member is little more than to pay your 
> membership fees, so that they can be used to subsidize those who are aircraft 
> owners or competition pilots, so they can keep doing what they enjoy doing.
> 
> Which is fine, as far as it goes — There’s nothing wrong with that, as long 
> as it’s transparent, and the people involved in it aren’t in denial about it.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it’s prudent to view the future of gliding and the future of GFA as 
> two independent concepts.
> 
> The largest aviation marketplace on the planet has six decades of 
> demonstrated track record to show that you don’t need a national private 
> quasi-regulator to tell everyone how to fly gliders: The real regulator 
> already does that job at least as well.
> 
> Richard is speculating about a future in which the club scene changes and GFA 
> remains roughly the same. A more realistic alternative, in my view, is a 
> future in which the GFA shrinks to become a membership-optional 
> FAI-sanctioned competition administration body like the SSA, and much of the 
> rest of their day-to-day functions are overseen by CASA. Give it another 
> decade worth of retirements and membership shrinkage, and GFA simply won’t 
> have the manpower to be effective or safe for many of the functions that it 
> fulfills right now even if it still has a million bucks in the bank, and the 
> regulator will simply take them off GFA’s plate.
> 
> It may very well be that the most important work the GFA could be doing is to 
> influence CASA to make that almost inevitable transition agreeable to GFA 
> members.
> 
> Working with CASA to make sure that the GPC syllabus is a qualification for a 
> CASA RPL (in the same way that an RAAus certificate is) would be an excellent 
> first step. At present, if GFA collapses, so do all the pilot credentials it 
> has issued, and nobody will be able to legally fly the electric 
> self-launchers you’re envisaging as the future of gliding. If GFA members 
> qualified for an RPL with a glider endorsement, at least there’d be a path 
> forward for them to fly domestically under the CASA system when the GFA 
> system stops working.
> 
> Regards,
> 
>   -  mark
> 
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Mark Newton]

On Jan 30, 2017, at 11:09 AM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
> 
> in time my view is the sport will change. electric self launchers and more 
> ownership will be the norm. small clubs will die. big clubs will go 
> commercial. it will take 15 years to migrate to a new model.

In my direct observation, people who are exposed (particularly early in their 
flying career) to the command-and-control mentality of gliding don’t buy 
$200,000 electric self-launch gliders. They join RAAus instead, where the basic 
pilot certificate is equivalent to a GFA Level 2 Independent Operator rating 
which almost nobody in gliding holds, and buy Kitfoxes or Jabirus or SportStars.

Of all the trainees I had as a GFA L2 instructor, and all the AEFs I introduced 
to the sport, far more of them have gone on to PPL, RPL and RAAus than GPC. 
I’ve notched up 3 PPL and RAAus pilot certificates in the last five years by 
giving people first flights in my RV-6, which fills me with immense 
satisfaction; In contrast, I feel like I busted my guts out for a decade in GFA 
to simply maintain the status quo. 

So I’m not a member anymore. Too hard, too many alternatives.

(maybe, as someone who has drifted away, it’d be worth GFA’s while to consult 
with people like me: I’m clearly a person who’s been prepared to invest 
significant effort in the past, and now I’m not, maybe they’d like to 
understand why)

Anyway:

My view of 2017 GFA is that it’s a top-heavy organization whose primary purpose 
is to distribute the cost of training, regulation and administration for a very 
small number of aircraft owners and competition pilots across a larger number 
of members. If you’re not an aircraft owner or competition pilot, your duty and 
function as a GFA member is little more than to pay your membership fees, so 
that they can be used to subsidize those who are aircraft owners or competition 
pilots, so they can keep doing what they enjoy doing.

Which is fine, as far as it goes — There’s nothing wrong with that, as long as 
it’s transparent, and the people involved in it aren’t in denial about it.



I think it’s prudent to view the future of gliding and the future of GFA as two 
independent concepts.

The largest aviation marketplace on the planet has six decades of demonstrated 
track record to show that you don’t need a national private quasi-regulator to 
tell everyone how to fly gliders: The real regulator already does that job at 
least as well.

Richard is speculating about a future in which the club scene changes and GFA 
remains roughly the same. A more realistic alternative, in my view, is a future 
in which the GFA shrinks to become a membership-optional FAI-sanctioned 
competition administration body like the SSA, and much of the rest of their 
day-to-day functions are overseen by CASA. Give it another decade worth of 
retirements and membership shrinkage, and GFA simply won’t have the manpower to 
be effective or safe for many of the functions that it fulfills right now even 
if it still has a million bucks in the bank, and the regulator will simply take 
them off GFA’s plate.

It may very well be that the most important work the GFA could be doing is to 
influence CASA to make that almost inevitable transition agreeable to GFA 
members.

Working with CASA to make sure that the GPC syllabus is a qualification for a 
CASA RPL (in the same way that an RAAus certificate is) would be an excellent 
first step. At present, if GFA collapses, so do all the pilot credentials it 
has issued, and nobody will be able to legally fly the electric self-launchers 
you’re envisaging as the future of gliding. If GFA members qualified for an RPL 
with a glider endorsement, at least there’d be a path forward for them to fly 
domestically under the CASA system when the GFA system stops working.

Regards,

  -  mark


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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Mark Newton]

Independent ops ratings are issued by club CFIs.

They require clubs to have training panels and chief flying instructors, which 
is the absolute opposite of what Al was asking about.

It remains impossible in the GFA system for a bunch of qualified pilots who 
aren’t gliding club members to form a syndicate for a glider which they can 
operate under their own recognizance. 

It is possible in literally every other form of Aviation in Australia. In most 
forms of aviation, it’s the only way to form a syndicate.

  - mark


> On Jan 30, 2017, at 1:42 PM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
> 
> Thats what the GPC is…..have you not been exposed to that by your club?
> 
> Anyone can buy a self launcher and with the right Independant Ops rating you 
> can fly it without anyone else needed.
> 
> I strongly suspect that as self launch electrics in particular become more 
> common (see GPGliders.com - GP15 as what is now possible), independent 
> operations will become far more common (or group independent….go flying with 
> a few mates anywhere).
> 
> I also suspect that this will be be the long term future of the sport (say 15 
> - 20 years from now).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 30 Jan 2017, at 1:20 pm, Al Borowski  wrote:
>> 
>> On 30/01/2017, Richard Frawley  wrote:
>>> i assume most people know that gliding requires a minimum membership size to
>>> keep the cost and freedoms we enjoy possible.
>>> 
>>> if you have not noticed we are actually under the minimum membership for
>>> sustainability.
>>> 
>>> This is a problem anyone who wants reasonable continuance needs to own and
>>> assist with.
>> 
>> I haven't checked in a few years, is it still impossible for a few
>> likeminded qualified pilots to form their own informal "club", buy a
>> 2nd hand glider and just fly it & pay to get it maintained, without
>> needing to bother with setting up a formal club with instructors etc
>> (unlike almost every other sport in existence)?
>> 
>> Is it still impossible to buy a motorglider and fly it like an RAA or
>> PPL would fly their power plane?
>> 
>> The GFA club model always struck me as missing a "qualified pilot"
>> rank between "Student" and "Instructor" - which is weird as it should
>> be the biggest group.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Al
>> ___
>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Richard Frawley]

Thats what the GPC is…..have you not been exposed to that by your club?

Anyone can buy a self launcher and with the right Independant Ops rating you 
can fly it without anyone else needed.

I strongly suspect that as self launch electrics in particular become more 
common (see GPGliders.com - GP15 as what is now possible), independent 
operations will become far more common (or group independent….go flying with a 
few mates anywhere).

I also suspect that this will be be the long term future of the sport (say 15 - 
20 years from now).









> On 30 Jan 2017, at 1:20 pm, Al Borowski  wrote:
> 
> On 30/01/2017, Richard Frawley  wrote:
>> i assume most people know that gliding requires a minimum membership size to
>> keep the cost and freedoms we enjoy possible.
>> 
>> if you have not noticed we are actually under the minimum membership for
>> sustainability.
>> 
>> This is a problem anyone who wants reasonable continuance needs to own and
>> assist with.
> 
> I haven't checked in a few years, is it still impossible for a few
> likeminded qualified pilots to form their own informal "club", buy a
> 2nd hand glider and just fly it & pay to get it maintained, without
> needing to bother with setting up a formal club with instructors etc
> (unlike almost every other sport in existence)?
> 
> Is it still impossible to buy a motorglider and fly it like an RAA or
> PPL would fly their power plane?
> 
> The GFA club model always struck me as missing a "qualified pilot"
> rank between "Student" and "Instructor" - which is weird as it should
> be the biggest group.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Al
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Al Borowski]

On 30/01/2017, Richard Frawley  wrote:
> i assume most people know that gliding requires a minimum membership size to
> keep the cost and freedoms we enjoy possible.
>
> if you have not noticed we are actually under the minimum membership for
> sustainability.
>
> This is a problem anyone who wants reasonable continuance needs to own and
> assist with.

I haven't checked in a few years, is it still impossible for a few
likeminded qualified pilots to form their own informal "club", buy a
2nd hand glider and just fly it & pay to get it maintained, without
needing to bother with setting up a formal club with instructors etc
(unlike almost every other sport in existence)?

Is it still impossible to buy a motorglider and fly it like an RAA or
PPL would fly their power plane?

The GFA club model always struck me as missing a "qualified pilot"
rank between "Student" and "Instructor" - which is weird as it should
be the biggest group.

Cheers,

Al
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Christopher McDonnell]

I must admit that I have found the 'hard lying' at Australian clubs 
difficult to again get used to after visiting a few UK clubs. Most are just 
not big enough to provide comforts and this is what prospects also look for 
in these times.


Chris

-Original Message- 
From: Teal

Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 10:13 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

Agreed.

An organisation that relies on (a lot of) volunteer work to function is
basically depending on members' enthusiasm and commitment to that
organisation, and to the activity that the organisation is there to
facilitate. If the public face of the GFA is griping and grumbling about
said membership, all that really does is undermine both of those
essential factors, while making the group look unattractive to
non-members. Lose-lose.

The shrinking memberships issue is a bigger one than can be solved by
individual members. I personally have dragged friends along to the
airfield for AEFs and waxed enthusiastic to everyone I know about the
joys of soaring; the same can be said for many many other GFA members.
However, we can't tie people to gliders until they agree to join. They
have to *choose* to do that themselves, and so far nobody that I've
dragged up to the airfield for an AEF has made that choice. When I asked
them about it later, I've gotten feedback along the lines of "I loved
it! I'm definitely going to learn to fly in the future, but right now I
don't have time". I'm not sure what I can do about that, personally; but
I'll certainly keep on trying.

As for the larger problem... gliding is not exactly high-profile among
the general population. Would addressing that with some promotional
advertising be worth considering? I have little in the way of marketing
skills, but surely some GFA members might have some expertise that they
could bring to bear on this issue. Maybe the GFA could produce more
promotional items like bumper stickers or tshirts or whatever that could
be put out in front of lots of eyes and attract attention? I recently
put a  "Women In Gliding" bumper sticker on the bumper of my car, and
it's already attracted some comment from acquaintances when I'm out and
about. Or maybe we could organise a nicely-produced promotional DVD with
attractive gliding videos and basic "who to contact if you want to find
out more" info, and arrange to have it distributed as a freebie in, I
dunno, some wider interest sporting magazine, or cereal packets, or at
the post office, or whatever seems plausible.

Is there any mileage to be had in using relatively simple methods like
this to make gliding a bit more visible out there among the general
non-aviation population?

We need to be RAISING enthusiasm, not quelling it.


Teal

On 30/01/2017 10:20 AM, Ulrich Stauss wrote:


From the GFA Facebook page: “Due to complaints from a vocal few who oppose 
the facts the last post had been deleted at their request. It's s sad day 
when the noise of a few drown out the facts however unpalatable they 
maybe. We cannot move forward until we accept where we are and recognize 
the need for change in the way we see the current situation and change can 
only happen with hardwork, burying our heads on the sand because we don't 
like what we are hearing will achieve nothing.”


Do we really need the dirty washing of one (or more?) frustrated 
individuals displayed on the public shopfront window of the GFA? How is 
that going to come across to (prospective) members and the general public? 
How embarrassing for the organisation and insulting to the volunteers who 
carry it.


This is stuff that needs to be sorted out in the board room, not in 
public. Just floating ideas (in such a negative tone at that) and 
expecting the membership to jump to it is a public display of bad 
leadership (and in my view as good as a resignation letter). Putting meat 
to those ideas and implementing change in an enthusiastic manner is what 
is needed instead.


Ulrich

*From:*Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] *On 
Behalf Of *Ulrich Stauss

*Sent:* Sunday, 29 January 2017 22:55
*To:* 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' 


*Subject:* [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

Has somebody in GFA Marketing and Development lost their marbles?

The attached post essentially blaming the membership for “not getting off 
their collective butts” continues a string of similarly negative posts 
mainly on Facebook and has prompted quite a few comments from upset 
members, several of which - including mine - were removed and at least in 
my case I am now blocked from the GFA page.


The same happened to me in response to my remark/question I posted in the 
thread below which I had initially posed in an FB comment on the WGC2017 
Benalla p

Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Mark Newton]

On Jan 30, 2017, at 11:14 AM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
> 
> after 3 years of trying the positive path and not seeing engagement, he has 
> just got the shits with the whole thing and feels like giving the community a 
> wake up call. i doubt there is much viewing of any of the social pages beyond 
> existing community and in any case no one externally would give a crap.

Seems like the existing community gives a crap and finds it a bit demotivating.

I don’t think that kind of behavior is defensible in a volunteer organization.

Nobody’s forcing him to do the job; if he isn’t finding it rewarding, he should 
relinquish it and let the organization see if someone else can have a better go 
at it.

  - mark



___
Aus-soaring mailing list
Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring

Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Mark Fisher]

I have always wondered why Gliding is one of the very few sports I can
think of where we insist on providing free or near free tuition.
I am pretty sure that generational social change has setup a 'minimum
deliverables' expectation amongst those who might be new members.

Perhaps if a 'customer' could book and arrive at, for example  10:00am, for
a short briefing and a series of flights over the next 90 minutes, he/she
would be more than happy to pay.

And..please pay instructorssomethinganything.

People pay for lessons hang-gliding, paragliding, Ultralight, GA, Golf,
Surfing, Skydiving, the lsit goes on..why are we so
 different..or should i say  'Special' ?

Perhaps the GFA could sponsor a club to trial such a  system, as a pilot
study, to try real change.

Mark

On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 10:41 AM, Jarek Mosiejewski 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> As a positive note, look how much good publicity could on AEF generate.
> The flight was just two days ago (28 Jan 2017) and the video has already
> been viewed over 1.2K times with lots of comments.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtNCJkK_A-M
>
> Regards
> Jarek
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From:
> "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." <
> aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au>
>
> To:
> "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." <
> aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au>
> Cc:
>
> Sent:
> Mon, 30 Jan 2017 11:14:18 +1100
> Subject:
> Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?
>
>
>
>
>
> after 3 years of trying the positive path and not seeing engagement, he
> has just got the shits with the whole thing and feels like giving the
> community a wake up call. i doubt there is much viewing of any of the
> social pages beyond existing community and in any case no one externally
> would give a crap.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 30 Jan 2017, at 10:50 AM, Ulrich Stauss 
> wrote:
>
> From the GFA Facebook page: “Due to complaints from a vocal few who
> oppose the facts the last post had been deleted at their request. It's s
> sad day when the noise of a few drown out the facts however unpalatable
> they maybe. We cannot move forward until we accept where we are and
> recognize the need for change in the way we see the current situation and
> change can only happen with hardwork, burying our heads on the sand because
> we don't like what we are hearing will achieve nothing.”
>
> Do we really need the dirty washing of one (or more?) frustrated
> individuals displayed on the public shopfront window of the GFA? How is
> that going to come across to (prospective) members and the general public?
> How embarrassing for the organisation and insulting to the volunteers who
> carry it.
>
>
>
> This is stuff that needs to be sorted out in the board room, not in
> public. Just floating ideas (in such a negative tone at that) and expecting
> the membership to jump to it is a public display of bad leadership (and in
> my view as good as a resignation letter). Putting meat to those ideas and
> implementing change in an enthusiastic manner is what is needed instead.
>
>
>
> Ulrich
>
>
>
> *From:* Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au
> ] *On Behalf Of *Ulrich Stauss
> *Sent:* Sunday, 29 January 2017 22:55
> *To:* 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' <
> aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au>
> *Subject:* [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?
>
>
>
> Has somebody in GFA Marketing and Development lost their marbles?
>
> The attached post essentially blaming the membership for “not getting off
> their collective butts” continues a string of similarly negative posts
> mainly on Facebook and has prompted quite a few comments from upset
> members, several of which - including mine - were removed and at least in
> my case I am now blocked from the GFA page.
>
> The same happened to me in response to my remark/question I posted in the
> thread below which I had initially posed in an FB comment on the WGC2017
> Benalla page: the comment was deleted and I was blocked from the page.
>
>
>
> Rather than blaming the general membership for not magically implementing
> ideas that somebody may have floated at some stage how about some effective
> leadership and change management from whoever posted these rants and
> blocked me from the pages (I am assuming “they” are both the same person).
>
>
>
> It would also be a good idea to add the name of the person responsible to
> anything they post on behalf of the GFA.
>
>
>
> Just my thoughts.
>
>
>
> Ulrich
>

Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Jarek Mosiejewski]

Hi,

As a positive note, look how much good publicity could on AEF
generate. The flight was just two days ago (28 Jan 2017) and the video
has already been viewed over 1.2K times with lots of comments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtNCJkK_A-M

Regards 
Jarek

- Original Message -
From:
 "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."


To:
"Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."

Cc:

Sent:
Mon, 30 Jan 2017 11:14:18 +1100
Subject:
Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

after 3 years of trying the positive path and not seeing engagement,
he has just got the shits with the whole thing and feels like giving
the community a wake up call. i doubt there is much viewing of any of
the social pages beyond existing community and in any case no one
externally would give a crap.

On 30 Jan 2017, at 10:50 AM, Ulrich Stauss  wrote:

From the GFA Facebook page: “
Due to complaints from a vocal few who oppose the facts the last post
had been deleted at their request. It's s sad day when the noise of a
few drown out the facts however unpalatable they maybe. We cannot move
forward until we accept where we are and recognize the need for change
in the way we see the current situation and change can only happen
with hardwork, burying our heads on the sand because we don't like
what we are hearing will achieve nothing.”

Do we really need the dirty washing of one (or more?) frustrated
individuals displayed on the public shopfront window of the GFA? How
is that going to come across to (prospective) members and the general
public? How embarrassing for the organisation and insulting to the
volunteers who carry it.

 

This is stuff that needs to be sorted out in the board room, not in
public. Just floating ideas (in such a negative tone at that) and
expecting the membership to jump to it is a public display of bad
leadership (and in my view as good as a resignation letter). Putting
meat to those ideas and implementing change in an enthusiastic manner
is what is needed instead.

 

Ulrich

 

FROM: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au
[2]] ON BEHALF OF Ulrich Stauss
SENT: Sunday, 29 January 2017 22:55
TO: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'

SUBJECT: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

 

Has somebody in GFA Marketing and Development lost their marbles?

The attached post essentially blaming the membership for “not
getting off their collective butts” continues a string of similarly
negative posts mainly on Facebook and has prompted quite a few
comments from upset members, several of which - including mine - were
removed and at least in my case I am now blocked from the GFA page.

The same happened to me in response to my remark/question I posted in
the thread below which I had initially posed in an FB comment on the
WGC2017 Benalla page: the comment was deleted and I was blocked from
the page.

 

Rather than blaming the general membership for not magically
implementing ideas that somebody may have floated at some stage how
about some effective leadership and change management from whoever
posted these rants and blocked me from the pages (I am assuming
“they” are both the same person).

 

It would also be a good idea to add the name of the person
responsible to anything they post on behalf of the GFA.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Ulrich

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au [4]]
On Behalf Of Ulrich Stauss
Sent: Friday, 20 January 2017 13:36
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Worlds coverage

 

Does anyone know why the live streaming comes online at the end and
not already for the Opening Ceremony?

Also, what were the problems initially? The organisers seem to think
that it was "Due to technical issues, Australia's ancient Internet
system" (which I think is not good form to post on a public and
official web forum) and offered another link.

Both streams now seem to work well though at least for me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLmdBix3H_E
 [6]

http://player.5stream.com/16094
 [7]

 

Ulrich

-Original Message-

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au
 [8]] On Behalf Of Casey Jay Lewis

Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2017 13:06

To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.



Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Worlds coverage

 

Another John Styles rant I suspect. 

 

Carries a lot of anger that one. 

 

CJ

 

iPhone Transmission

  

Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Ulrich Stauss]

No reason to engage in what comes across an attempt of a bit of sabotage on the 
way out…

 

Ulrich

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Richard Frawley
Sent: Monday, 30 January 2017 10:44
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

 

 

 

after 3 years of trying the positive path and not seeing engagement, he has 
just got the shits with the whole thing and feels like giving the community a 
wake up call. i doubt there is much viewing of any of the social pages beyond 
existing community and in any case no one externally would give a crap.

 

 

 

 


On 30 Jan 2017, at 10:50 AM, Ulrich Stauss mailto:usta...@internode.on.net> > wrote:

>From the GFA Facebook page: “Due to complaints from a vocal few who oppose the 
>facts the last post had been deleted at their request. It's s sad day when the 
>noise of a few drown out the facts however unpalatable they maybe. We cannot 
>move forward until we accept where we are and recognize the need for change in 
>the way we see the current situation and change can only happen with hardwork, 
>burying our heads on the sand because we don't like what we are hearing will 
>achieve nothing.”

Do we really need the dirty washing of one (or more?) frustrated individuals 
displayed on the public shopfront window of the GFA? How is that going to come 
across to (prospective) members and the general public? How embarrassing for 
the organisation and insulting to the volunteers who carry it.

 

This is stuff that needs to be sorted out in the board room, not in public. 
Just floating ideas (in such a negative tone at that) and expecting the 
membership to jump to it is a public display of bad leadership (and in my view 
as good as a resignation letter). Putting meat to those ideas and implementing 
change in an enthusiastic manner is what is needed instead.

 

Ulrich

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Ulrich Stauss
Sent: Sunday, 29 January 2017 22:55
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' 
mailto:aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> >
Subject: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

 

Has somebody in GFA Marketing and Development lost their marbles?

The attached post essentially blaming the membership for “not getting off their 
collective butts” continues a string of similarly negative posts mainly on 
Facebook and has prompted quite a few comments from upset members, several of 
which - including mine - were removed and at least in my case I am now blocked 
from the GFA page.

The same happened to me in response to my remark/question I posted in the 
thread below which I had initially posed in an FB comment on the WGC2017 
Benalla page: the comment was deleted and I was blocked from the page.

 

Rather than blaming the general membership for not magically implementing ideas 
that somebody may have floated at some stage how about some effective 
leadership and change management from whoever posted these rants and blocked me 
from the pages (I am assuming “they” are both the same person).

 

It would also be a good idea to add the name of the person responsible to 
anything they post on behalf of the GFA.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Ulrich

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Ulrich Stauss
Sent: Friday, 20 January 2017 13:36
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' 
mailto:aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> >
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Worlds coverage

 

Does anyone know why the live streaming comes online at the end and not already 
for the Opening Ceremony?

Also, what were the problems initially? The organisers seem to think that it 
was "Due to technical issues, Australia's ancient Internet system" (which I 
think is not good form to post on a public and official web forum) and offered 
another link.

Both streams now seem to work well though at least for me:

 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLmdBix3H_E> 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLmdBix3H_E

 <http://player.5stream.com/16094> http://player.5stream.com/16094

 

Ulrich

-Original Message-

From: Aus-soaring [ <mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au> 
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of Casey Jay Lewis

Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2017 13:06

To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.

< <mailto:aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au>

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Worlds coverage

 

Another John Styles rant I suspect. 

 

Carries a lot of anger that one. 

 

CJ

 

iPhone Transmission

 

> On 18 Jan 2017, at 10:33, Richard Hatch < <mailto:rhatch...@gmail.com> 
> rhatch...@gmail.com> wrot

Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Richard Frawley]

There has been many initiatives to ‘raise enthusiasm”

The Beyond 3000 being a recent one.

The nett effect over the last 7 years has been negligible at best.

There are two things that will work

1. Every member makes sure they take personal responsibility to add one new 
member a year and makes it happen.

2. A centralised marketing budget of more than $750,000 per year over 3 years

The two together might see a sustainable membership of over 4000.

How to be sustainable things also have to change at the club level, as clubs 
are less and less attractive to potential new members due to social shifts in 
the main.

The things that attracted people to clubs in the past are no longer attractive, 
the effective of social change.

There is no easy win here, anyone who thinks so has not been involved in trying 
to make large improvements at the actualisation level







> On 30 Jan 2017, at 11:13 am, Teal  wrote:
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> An organisation that relies on (a lot of) volunteer work to function is 
> basically depending on members' enthusiasm and commitment to that 
> organisation, and to the activity that the organisation is there to 
> facilitate. If the public face of the GFA is griping and grumbling about said 
> membership, all that really does is undermine both of those essential 
> factors, while making the group look unattractive to non-members. Lose-lose.
> 
> The shrinking memberships issue is a bigger one than can be solved by 
> individual members. I personally have dragged friends along to the airfield 
> for AEFs and waxed enthusiastic to everyone I know about the joys of soaring; 
> the same can be said for many many other GFA members. However, we can't tie 
> people to gliders until they agree to join. They have to *choose* to do that 
> themselves, and so far nobody that I've dragged up to the airfield for an AEF 
> has made that choice. When I asked them about it later, I've gotten feedback 
> along the lines of "I loved it! I'm definitely going to learn to fly in the 
> future, but right now I don't have time". I'm not sure what I can do about 
> that, personally; but I'll certainly keep on trying.
> 
> As for the larger problem... gliding is not exactly high-profile among the 
> general population. Would addressing that with some promotional advertising 
> be worth considering? I have little in the way of marketing skills, but 
> surely some GFA members might have some expertise that they could bring to 
> bear on this issue. Maybe the GFA could produce more promotional items like 
> bumper stickers or tshirts or whatever that could be put out in front of lots 
> of eyes and attract attention? I recently put a  "Women In Gliding" bumper 
> sticker on the bumper of my car, and it's already attracted some comment from 
> acquaintances when I'm out and about. Or maybe we could organise a 
> nicely-produced promotional DVD with attractive gliding videos and basic "who 
> to contact if you want to find out more" info, and arrange to have it 
> distributed as a freebie in, I dunno, some wider interest sporting magazine, 
> or cereal packets, or at the post office, or whatever seems plausible.
> 
> Is there any mileage to be had in using relatively simple methods like this 
> to make gliding a bit more visible out there among the general non-aviation 
> population?
> 
> We need to be RAISING enthusiasm, not quelling it.
> 
> 
> Teal
> 
> On 30/01/2017 10:20 AM, Ulrich Stauss wrote:
>> 
>> From the GFA Facebook page: “Due to complaints from a vocal few who oppose 
>> the facts the last post had been deleted at their request. It's s sad day 
>> when the noise of a few drown out the facts however unpalatable they maybe. 
>> We cannot move forward until we accept where we are and recognize the need 
>> for change in the way we see the current situation and change can only 
>> happen with hardwork, burying our heads on the sand because we don't like 
>> what we are hearing will achieve nothing.”
>> 
>> Do we really need the dirty washing of one (or more?) frustrated individuals 
>> displayed on the public shopfront window of the GFA? How is that going to 
>> come across to (prospective) members and the general public? How 
>> embarrassing for the organisation and insulting to the volunteers who carry 
>> it.
>> 
>> This is stuff that needs to be sorted out in the board room, not in public. 
>> Just floating ideas (in such a negative tone at that) and expecting the 
>> membership to jump to it is a public display of bad leadership (and in my 
>> view as good as a resignation letter). Putting meat to those ideas and 
>> implementing change in an 

Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Richard Frawley]

after 3 years of trying the positive path and not seeing engagement, he has 
just got the shits with the whole thing and feels like giving the community a 
wake up call. i doubt there is much viewing of any of the social pages beyond 
existing community and in any case no one externally would give a crap.





> On 30 Jan 2017, at 10:50 AM, Ulrich Stauss  wrote:
> 
> From the GFA Facebook page: “Due to complaints from a vocal few who oppose 
> the facts the last post had been deleted at their request. It's s sad day 
> when the noise of a few drown out the facts however unpalatable they maybe. 
> We cannot move forward until we accept where we are and recognize the need 
> for change in the way we see the current situation and change can only happen 
> with hardwork, burying our heads on the sand because we don't like what we 
> are hearing will achieve nothing.”
> 
> Do we really need the dirty washing of one (or more?) frustrated individuals 
> displayed on the public shopfront window of the GFA? How is that going to 
> come across to (prospective) members and the general public? How embarrassing 
> for the organisation and insulting to the volunteers who carry it.
>  
> This is stuff that needs to be sorted out in the board room, not in public. 
> Just floating ideas (in such a negative tone at that) and expecting the 
> membership to jump to it is a public display of bad leadership (and in my 
> view as good as a resignation letter). Putting meat to those ideas and 
> implementing change in an enthusiastic manner is what is needed instead.
>  
> Ulrich
>  
> From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf 
> Of Ulrich Stauss
> Sent: Sunday, 29 January 2017 22:55
> To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' 
> 
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?
>  
> Has somebody in GFA Marketing and Development lost their marbles?
> The attached post essentially blaming the membership for “not getting off 
> their collective butts” continues a string of similarly negative posts mainly 
> on Facebook and has prompted quite a few comments from upset members, several 
> of which - including mine - were removed and at least in my case I am now 
> blocked from the GFA page.
> The same happened to me in response to my remark/question I posted in the 
> thread below which I had initially posed in an FB comment on the WGC2017 
> Benalla page: the comment was deleted and I was blocked from the page.
>  
> Rather than blaming the general membership for not magically implementing 
> ideas that somebody may have floated at some stage how about some effective 
> leadership and change management from whoever posted these rants and blocked 
> me from the pages (I am assuming “they” are both the same person).
>  
> It would also be a good idea to add the name of the person responsible to 
> anything they post on behalf of the GFA.
>  
> Just my thoughts.
>  
> Ulrich
> -Original Message-
> From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf 
> Of Ulrich Stauss
> Sent: Friday, 20 January 2017 13:36
> To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Worlds coverage
>  
> Does anyone know why the live streaming comes online at the end and not 
> already for the Opening Ceremony?
> Also, what were the problems initially? The organisers seem to think that it 
> was "Due to technical issues, Australia's ancient Internet system" (which I 
> think is not good form to post on a public and official web forum) and 
> offered another link.
> Both streams now seem to work well though at least for me:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLmdBix3H_E
> http://player.5stream.com/16094
>  
> Ulrich
> -Original Message-
> From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf 
> Of Casey Jay Lewis
> Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2017 13:06
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> 
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Worlds coverage
>  
> Another John Styles rant I suspect.
>  
> Carries a lot of anger that one.
>  
> CJ
>  
> iPhone Transmission
>  
> > On 18 Jan 2017, at 10:33, Richard Hatch  wrote:
> >
> > Can anyone enlighten me to the comments posted from the GFA and the
> > WGC in
> relation to the sponsors yesterday. Seemed pretty weird and childish. They 
> have been deleted now I see.
> >
> > Ritch
> > ___
> > Aus-soaring mailing list
> > Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
> > http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
> ___

Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Teal]

Agreed.

An organisation that relies on (a lot of) volunteer work to function is 
basically depending on members' enthusiasm and commitment to that 
organisation, and to the activity that the organisation is there to 
facilitate. If the public face of the GFA is griping and grumbling about 
said membership, all that really does is undermine both of those 
essential factors, while making the group look unattractive to 
non-members. Lose-lose.


The shrinking memberships issue is a bigger one than can be solved by 
individual members. I personally have dragged friends along to the 
airfield for AEFs and waxed enthusiastic to everyone I know about the 
joys of soaring; the same can be said for many many other GFA members. 
However, we can't tie people to gliders until they agree to join. They 
have to *choose* to do that themselves, and so far nobody that I've 
dragged up to the airfield for an AEF has made that choice. When I asked 
them about it later, I've gotten feedback along the lines of "I loved 
it! I'm definitely going to learn to fly in the future, but right now I 
don't have time". I'm not sure what I can do about that, personally; but 
I'll certainly keep on trying.


As for the larger problem... gliding is not exactly high-profile among 
the general population. Would addressing that with some promotional 
advertising be worth considering? I have little in the way of marketing 
skills, but surely some GFA members might have some expertise that they 
could bring to bear on this issue. Maybe the GFA could produce more 
promotional items like bumper stickers or tshirts or whatever that could 
be put out in front of lots of eyes and attract attention? I recently 
put a  "Women In Gliding" bumper sticker on the bumper of my car, and 
it's already attracted some comment from acquaintances when I'm out and 
about. Or maybe we could organise a nicely-produced promotional DVD with 
attractive gliding videos and basic "who to contact if you want to find 
out more" info, and arrange to have it distributed as a freebie in, I 
dunno, some wider interest sporting magazine, or cereal packets, or at 
the post office, or whatever seems plausible.


Is there any mileage to be had in using relatively simple methods like 
this to make gliding a bit more visible out there among the general 
non-aviation population?


We need to be RAISING enthusiasm, not quelling it.


Teal

On 30/01/2017 10:20 AM, Ulrich Stauss wrote:


From the GFA Facebook page: “Due to complaints from a vocal few who 
oppose the facts the last post had been deleted at their request. It's 
s sad day when the noise of a few drown out the facts however 
unpalatable they maybe. We cannot move forward until we accept where 
we are and recognize the need for change in the way we see the current 
situation and change can only happen with hardwork, burying our heads 
on the sand because we don't like what we are hearing will achieve 
nothing.”


Do we really need the dirty washing of one (or more?) frustrated 
individuals displayed on the public shopfront window of the GFA? How 
is that going to come across to (prospective) members and the general 
public? How embarrassing for the organisation and insulting to the 
volunteers who carry it.


This is stuff that needs to be sorted out in the board room, not in 
public. Just floating ideas (in such a negative tone at that) and 
expecting the membership to jump to it is a public display of bad 
leadership (and in my view as good as a resignation letter). Putting 
meat to those ideas and implementing change in an enthusiastic manner 
is what is needed instead.


Ulrich

*From:*Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] 
*On Behalf Of *Ulrich Stauss

*Sent:* Sunday, 29 January 2017 22:55
*To:* 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' 


*Subject:* [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

Has somebody in GFA Marketing and Development lost their marbles?

The attached post essentially blaming the membership for “not getting 
off their collective butts” continues a string of similarly negative 
posts mainly on Facebook and has prompted quite a few comments from 
upset members, several of which - including mine - were removed and at 
least in my case I am now blocked from the GFA page.


The same happened to me in response to my remark/question I posted in 
the thread below which I had initially posed in an FB comment on the 
WGC2017 Benalla page: the comment was deleted and I was blocked from 
the page.


Rather than blaming the general membership for not magically 
implementing ideas that somebody may have floated at some stage how 
about some effective leadership and change management from whoever 
posted these rants and blocked me from the pages (I am assuming “they” 
are both the same person).


It would also be a good idea to add the name of the person respons

Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Richard Frawley]

yes.

i wanted to go for a national marketing budget, but no one in the exec had the 
balls. 

clubs have insufficient funds individually. only as a collector can mass 
marketing be afforded

in time my view is the sport will change. electric self launchers and more 
ownership will be the norm. small clubs will die. big clubs will go commercial. 
it will take 15 years to migrate to a new model.



> On 30 Jan 2017, at 10:43 AM, Robert Izatt  wrote:
> 
> Hi Richard,
> Your problem here is “ownership”. The guys who are “spitting” at you believe 
> they “own” gliding and also their club.  I have had this discussion with 
> Mandy.
> 
> Just a small part of the discussion. Cheers Rob Izatt
> 
> Let’s look at it another way - Macdonalds is a business , “Gliding” is a 
> business and the GFA is the Master Franchisor. Macdonalds lays out a business 
> model, and has serious expectations of it’s franchisees. The GFA has 
> affiliates which do what they want. Macdonalds charges a franchise fee and 
> marketing fees and training fees and the franchisee sells hamburgers to pay 
> for this and when the store looks tired Macdonalds says to the franchisee pay 
> $400+k to do a re furbishment (new training aircraft). Macdonalds does all 
> the marketing for its franchisees and expects them to provide a service at a 
> standard they have specified. The franchisor is in control. The GFA isn’t so 
> it can’t expect clubs to do anything but fly within the rules. The GFA 
> struggles to enforce any other rules.
> Macdonalds has a product and maintains its core menu but is always looking 
> for ways to improve.
> The GFA is never going to adopt a full franchise model but there are ways to 
> reward clubs which adopt an "operational business model" set forward by the 
> GFA. Or better still go into competition with the clubs that survive on early 
> training and offer a quality service and institute an instructional fee 
> levied by the GFA for each instructional hour done to encourage clubs to 
> charge for instruction thereby forcing them to realise its value and the 
> contribution of members and understand customers need to be appreciated and 
> fostered once you get them in the door. 
> 
> FYInterest. This is a third persons view of my discussions with Mandy
> 
 The point he (Rob/me) makes is that encouraging clubs to go on membership 
 drives and trying to provide them with targets and skill sets to help them 
 recruit membership I think misses the point.
 
 First, 
 
 Why would clubs want to do this ? 
 Well obviously some need renewal and cash flow . 
 And some for altruistic aims 
 But I think most are busy with the day to day operations and keeping 
 everything afloat especially as it's voluntary. And they mostly just like 
 to go gliding 
 
 So the GFA's voice encouraging them to recruit  is really a cheer squad on 
 the side line . 
 
 What is the motivation or incentive that the GFA provides ? 
 
 The type of person who may want to fly has many options . Paragliding , 
 ultralights , hang gliders , G A . To name a few. 
 
 The person will look for convenience and outcome ie learn to fly . New 
 experience etc . 
 
 Can they find it in a club ?
 Turn up all day and help and hope to get an instructional flight . 
 So are clubs fit for purpose?
 
 In the wider society pure Clubs as structures are now extinct where large 
 capital sums are involved . 
 
 Second, 
 
 Structure follows strategy . 
 
 Thus are the structures that gliding have suitable for the strategy that 
 the GFA wants to pursue . 
 
 Three, 
 
 This comes to the point that Rob is making . 
 
 Is Gliding competing for a narrow finite group of people who are attracted 
 to the concept of flying and have the time and resources to achieve this 
 aim?
 
 Or is gliding telling all people "you have to try this" and "try it now" 
 
 So how are we meeting their desire or creating the demand? How are clubs 
 serving the demand?
 
 
 MacDonald does this by creating the demand and stimulating the desire  and 
 then by centrally coordinating an advertising campaign and supply of 
 product . They require the outlets to provide a consistent service  with 
 wonderful and friendly service through a contract or bargain and in return 
 obtain income for outcome. 
 
 
 Four 
>>> 
 Where does that leave gliding ?
>>> 
 I think to consider whether it's present structures are suitable for 
 growing the sport . 
 
 Come back to what I said early structure follows strategy . 
 
 Decide on your strategy and build the structures to support it 
 
 Five 
>>> 
 That's why Rob talks about what's the role of GFA in gliding . 
 
 Maybe to be the central advertising body and recruitment amongst its 
>>>

Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Ulrich Stauss]

>From the GFA Facebook page: "Due to complaints from a vocal few who oppose
the facts the last post had been deleted at their request. It's s sad day
when the noise of a few drown out the facts however unpalatable they maybe.
We cannot move forward until we accept where we are and recognize the need
for change in the way we see the current situation and change can only
happen with hardwork, burying our heads on the sand because we don't like
what we are hearing will achieve nothing."

Do we really need the dirty washing of one (or more?) frustrated individuals
displayed on the public shopfront window of the GFA? How is that going to
come across to (prospective) members and the general public? How
embarrassing for the organisation and insulting to the volunteers who carry
it.

 

This is stuff that needs to be sorted out in the board room, not in public.
Just floating ideas (in such a negative tone at that) and expecting the
membership to jump to it is a public display of bad leadership (and in my
view as good as a resignation letter). Putting meat to those ideas and
implementing change in an enthusiastic manner is what is needed instead.

 

Ulrich

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of Ulrich Stauss
Sent: Sunday, 29 January 2017 22:55
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'

Subject: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

 

Has somebody in GFA Marketing and Development lost their marbles?

The attached post essentially blaming the membership for "not getting off
their collective butts" continues a string of similarly negative posts
mainly on Facebook and has prompted quite a few comments from upset members,
several of which - including mine - were removed and at least in my case I
am now blocked from the GFA page.

The same happened to me in response to my remark/question I posted in the
thread below which I had initially posed in an FB comment on the WGC2017
Benalla page: the comment was deleted and I was blocked from the page.

 

Rather than blaming the general membership for not magically implementing
ideas that somebody may have floated at some stage how about some effective
leadership and change management from whoever posted these rants and blocked
me from the pages (I am assuming "they" are both the same person).

 

It would also be a good idea to add the name of the person responsible to
anything they post on behalf of the GFA.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Ulrich

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of Ulrich Stauss
Sent: Friday, 20 January 2017 13:36
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
mailto:aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> >
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Worlds coverage

 

Does anyone know why the live streaming comes online at the end and not
already for the Opening Ceremony?

Also, what were the problems initially? The organisers seem to think that it
was "Due to technical issues, Australia's ancient Internet system" (which I
think is not good form to post on a public and official web forum) and
offered another link.

Both streams now seem to work well though at least for me:

 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLmdBix3H_E>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLmdBix3H_E

 <http://player.5stream.com/16094> http://player.5stream.com/16094

 

Ulrich

-Original Message-

From: Aus-soaring [ <mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au>
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of Casey Jay Lewis

Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2017 13:06

To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.

< <mailto:aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au>

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Worlds coverage

 

Another John Styles rant I suspect. 

 

Carries a lot of anger that one. 

 

CJ

 

iPhone Transmission

 

> On 18 Jan 2017, at 10:33, Richard Hatch < <mailto:rhatch...@gmail.com>
rhatch...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 

> Can anyone enlighten me to the comments posted from the GFA and the 

> WGC in

relation to the sponsors yesterday. Seemed pretty weird and childish. They
have been deleted now I see.

> 

> Ritch

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http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring

 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Robert Izatt]

Hi Richard,
Your problem here is “ownership”. The guys who are “spitting” at you believe 
they “own” gliding and also their club.  I have had this discussion with Mandy.

Just a small part of the discussion. Cheers Rob Izatt

Let’s look at it another way - Macdonalds is a business , “Gliding” is a 
business and the GFA is the Master Franchisor. Macdonalds lays out a business 
model, and has serious expectations of it’s franchisees. The GFA has affiliates 
which do what they want. Macdonalds charges a franchise fee and marketing fees 
and training fees and the franchisee sells hamburgers to pay for this and when 
the store looks tired Macdonalds says to the franchisee pay $400+k to do a re 
furbishment (new training aircraft). Macdonalds does all the marketing for its 
franchisees and expects them to provide a service at a standard they have 
specified. The franchisor is in control. The GFA isn’t so it can’t expect clubs 
to do anything but fly within the rules. The GFA struggles to enforce any other 
rules.
Macdonalds has a product and maintains its core menu but is always looking for 
ways to improve.
The GFA is never going to adopt a full franchise model but there are ways to 
reward clubs which adopt an "operational business model" set forward by the 
GFA. Or better still go into competition with the clubs that survive on early 
training and offer a quality service and institute an instructional fee levied 
by the GFA for each instructional hour done to encourage clubs to charge for 
instruction thereby forcing them to realise its value and the contribution of 
members and understand customers need to be appreciated and fostered once you 
get them in the door. 

FYInterest. This is a third persons view of my discussions with Mandy

>> The point he (Rob/me) makes is that encouraging clubs to go on membership 
>> drives and trying to provide them with targets and skill sets to help them 
>> recruit membership I think misses the point.
>> 
>> First, 
>> 
>> Why would clubs want to do this ? 
>> Well obviously some need renewal and cash flow . 
>> And some for altruistic aims 
>> But I think most are busy with the day to day operations and keeping 
>> everything afloat especially as it's voluntary. And they mostly just like to 
>> go gliding 
>> 
>> So the GFA's voice encouraging them to recruit  is really a cheer squad on 
>> the side line . 
>> 
>> What is the motivation or incentive that the GFA provides ? 
>> 
>> The type of person who may want to fly has many options . Paragliding , 
>> ultralights , hang gliders , G A . To name a few. 
>> 
>> The person will look for convenience and outcome ie learn to fly . New 
>> experience etc . 
>> 
>> Can they find it in a club ?
>> Turn up all day and help and hope to get an instructional flight . 
>> So are clubs fit for purpose?
>> 
>> In the wider society pure Clubs as structures are now extinct where large 
>> capital sums are involved . 
>> 
>> Second, 
>> 
>> Structure follows strategy . 
>> 
>> Thus are the structures that gliding have suitable for the strategy that the 
>> GFA wants to pursue . 
>> 
>> Three, 
>> 
>> This comes to the point that Rob is making . 
>> 
>> Is Gliding competing for a narrow finite group of people who are attracted 
>> to the concept of flying and have the time and resources to achieve this aim?
>> 
>> Or is gliding telling all people "you have to try this" and "try it now" 
>> 
>> So how are we meeting their desire or creating the demand? How are clubs 
>> serving the demand?
>> 
>> 
>> MacDonald does this by creating the demand and stimulating the desire  and 
>> then by centrally coordinating an advertising campaign and supply of product 
>> . They require the outlets to provide a consistent service  with wonderful 
>> and friendly service through a contract or bargain and in return obtain 
>> income for outcome. 
>> 
>> 
>> Four 
> 
>> Where does that leave gliding ?
> 
>> I think to consider whether it's present structures are suitable for growing 
>> the sport . 
>> 
>> Come back to what I said early structure follows strategy . 
>> 
>> Decide on your strategy and build the structures to support it 
>> 
>> Five 
> 
>> That's why Rob talks about what's the role of GFA in gliding . 
>> 
>> Maybe to be the central advertising body and recruitment amongst its 
>> statutory role?
>> 
>> The training body with professional trainers and a contract or agreement 
>> with recognised gliding bodies who can deliver the appropriate outcomes?
>> 
>> Relying on clubs as good as it sounds is handing the sport to the lowest 
>> common dominator , such as  a small club that is only interested in flying 
>> on a Saturday every now and then and not particularly interested in 
>> recruitment or motivated to attract and retain new members to the sport.  
>> 
>> Where to from here?
>> 
>> Well I have always followed the advice stop what you are doing as you could 
>> be making it worse . 
>> 
>> Then think through the issue 
>> 
>> That is co

Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Nick Gilbert]

The person making the posts has been doing so under the faceless name of
"The Gliding Federation of Australia Inc".

Nick.



On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 9:00 AM, Richard Frawley 
wrote:

> Please remember that the GFA is a voluntary organisation.
>
> It is not a company. Command and control does not exist as such.
>
> If you dont like what John is saying, then raise it with him directly. He
> is easily contacted.
>
> The GFA is just a few hard working people, not some faceless organisation.
>
> Talk to the person directly you will get better results.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 30 Jan 2017, at 9:21 am, Paul Dickson  wrote:
>
> I also wrote to the GFA, however my request was that they stop this from
> continually happening. I'm embarrassed to have the GFA represent me in this
> way on public social media.
>
> Like most other GFA members I do plenty of volunteer work at my local club
> and I get a good deal of satisfaction from the way the HVGC operates (in
> safety performance, flying levels, social activity and membership growth).
> To convince me to to either spend more of my own time or to do less for my
> club you have to convince me that it will be a worthwhile and that my club
> will get a better return on the investment of my time. By ranting in public
> and attempting to shame me has zero chance of convincing me and only
> further reinforces that I should ignore the GFA and just concentrate on
> what our club is doing.
>
> I would also like to encourage everyone else who is dissatisfied with the
> GFA's marketing communication to write to the GFA as that is how we will be
> able to convince them that we are not happy and would like to see a change.
>
> Paul Dickson
> Hunter Valley Gliding Club
>
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 8:57 AM, Justin Sinclair <
> justinjsincl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I did this really strange thing and wrote to the GFA asking them to
>> remove it
>>
>> JJ
>>
>> Justin Sinclair
>> 17 Queen St
>> Scarborough Qld
>>
>> 0421061811
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> *From:* Justin Sinclair 
>> *Date:* 30 January 2017 at 7:49:17 am AEST
>> *To:* bo...@glidingaustralia.org
>> *Cc:* presid...@glidingaustralia.org, e...@glidingaustralia.org
>> *Subject:* *GFA face book post*
>>
>> Hi GFA,
>>
>> Can we get this removed from the Facebook page, I truly get the
>> frustrations of whomever posted it, however posts like this do much
>> irreparable damage in the modern social media world.
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> Justin sinclair
>> Kingaroy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Justin Sinclair
>> 17 Queen St
>> Scarborough Qld
>>
>> 0421061811
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>
>> Justin Sinclair
>> 17 Queen St
>> Scarborough Qld
>>
>> 0421061811
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On 30 Jan. 2017, at 7:50 am, Glenn McLean  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 1/30/2017 6:59 AM, Richard Frawley wrote:
>>
>> So, what have YOU done to assist glidings future in the last 6 months???
>>
>>
>> I have done what I always do Richard- Support my club, Give my time
>> freely to teach students and visitors, and spread my enthusiasm to others I
>> come in contact with. In short,
>> What have I done? Plenty more than yourself.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ___
>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Richard Frawley]

Please remember that the GFA is a voluntary organisation.

It is not a company. Command and control does not exist as such.

If you dont like what John is saying, then raise it with him directly. He is 
easily contacted.

The GFA is just a few hard working people, not some faceless organisation. 

Talk to the person directly you will get better results.







> On 30 Jan 2017, at 9:21 am, Paul Dickson  wrote:
> 
> I also wrote to the GFA, however my request was that they stop this from 
> continually happening. I'm embarrassed to have the GFA represent me in this 
> way on public social media. 
> 
> Like most other GFA members I do plenty of volunteer work at my local club 
> and I get a good deal of satisfaction from the way the HVGC operates (in 
> safety performance, flying levels, social activity and membership growth). To 
> convince me to to either spend more of my own time or to do less for my club 
> you have to convince me that it will be a worthwhile and that my club will 
> get a better return on the investment of my time. By ranting in public and 
> attempting to shame me has zero chance of convincing me and only further 
> reinforces that I should ignore the GFA and just concentrate on what our club 
> is doing.
> 
> I would also like to encourage everyone else who is dissatisfied with the 
> GFA's marketing communication to write to the GFA as that is how we will be 
> able to convince them that we are not happy and would like to see a change.
> 
> Paul Dickson
> Hunter Valley Gliding Club
> 
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 8:57 AM, Justin Sinclair  > wrote:
> I did this really strange thing and wrote to the GFA asking them to remove it
> 
> JJ 
> 
> Justin Sinclair 
> 17 Queen St
> Scarborough Qld
> 
> 0421061811
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
>> From: Justin Sinclair > >
>> Date: 30 January 2017 at 7:49:17 am AEST
>> To: bo...@glidingaustralia.org 
>> Cc: presid...@glidingaustralia.org , 
>> e...@glidingaustralia.org 
>> Subject: GFA face book post
>> 
>> Hi GFA,
>> 
>> Can we get this removed from the Facebook page, I truly get the frustrations 
>> of whomever posted it, however posts like this do much irreparable damage in 
>> the modern social media world. 
>> 
>> Kind regards
>> 
>> Justin sinclair 
>> Kingaroy 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Justin Sinclair 
>> 17 Queen St
>> Scarborough Qld
>> 
>> 0421061811
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
> 
> Justin Sinclair 
> 17 Queen St
> Scarborough Qld
> 
> 0421061811
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On 30 Jan. 2017, at 7:50 am, Glenn McLean  > wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 1/30/2017 6:59 AM, Richard Frawley wrote:
>>> So, what have YOU done to assist glidings future in the last 6 months???
>>> 
>> I have done what I always do Richard- Support my club, Give my time freely 
>> to teach students and visitors, and spread my enthusiasm to others I come in 
>> contact with. In short,
>> What have I done? Plenty more than yourself.
>> Glenn
>> 
>> ___
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>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au 
>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring 
>> 
> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Richard Frawley]

why are you offended by a question?

As you are contributing the question was not aimed at you was it?


> On 30 Jan 2017, at 8:50 am, Glenn McLean  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 1/30/2017 6:59 AM, Richard Frawley wrote:
>> So, what have YOU done to assist glidings future in the last 6 months???
>> 
> I have done what I always do Richard- Support my club, Give my time freely to 
> teach students and visitors, and spread my enthusiasm to others I come in 
> contact with. In short,
> What have I done? Plenty more than yourself.
> Glenn
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Paul Dickson]

I also wrote to the GFA, however my request was that they stop this from
continually happening. I'm embarrassed to have the GFA represent me in this
way on public social media.

Like most other GFA members I do plenty of volunteer work at my local club
and I get a good deal of satisfaction from the way the HVGC operates (in
safety performance, flying levels, social activity and membership growth).
To convince me to to either spend more of my own time or to do less for my
club you have to convince me that it will be a worthwhile and that my club
will get a better return on the investment of my time. By ranting in public
and attempting to shame me has zero chance of convincing me and only
further reinforces that I should ignore the GFA and just concentrate on
what our club is doing.

I would also like to encourage everyone else who is dissatisfied with the
GFA's marketing communication to write to the GFA as that is how we will be
able to convince them that we are not happy and would like to see a change.

Paul Dickson
Hunter Valley Gliding Club

On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 8:57 AM, Justin Sinclair <
justinjsincl...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I did this really strange thing and wrote to the GFA asking them to remove
> it
>
> JJ
>
> Justin Sinclair
> 17 Queen St
> Scarborough Qld
>
> 0421061811
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From:* Justin Sinclair 
> *Date:* 30 January 2017 at 7:49:17 am AEST
> *To:* bo...@glidingaustralia.org
> *Cc:* presid...@glidingaustralia.org, e...@glidingaustralia.org
> *Subject:* *GFA face book post*
>
> Hi GFA,
>
> Can we get this removed from the Facebook page, I truly get the
> frustrations of whomever posted it, however posts like this do much
> irreparable damage in the modern social media world.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Justin sinclair
> Kingaroy
>
>
>
>
> Justin Sinclair
> 17 Queen St
> Scarborough Qld
>
> 0421061811
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
> Justin Sinclair
> 17 Queen St
> Scarborough Qld
>
> 0421061811
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 30 Jan. 2017, at 7:50 am, Glenn McLean  wrote:
>
>
>
> On 1/30/2017 6:59 AM, Richard Frawley wrote:
>
> So, what have YOU done to assist glidings future in the last 6 months???
>
>
> I have done what I always do Richard- Support my club, Give my time freely
> to teach students and visitors, and spread my enthusiasm to others I come
> in contact with. In short,
> What have I done? Plenty more than yourself.
> Glenn
>
> ___
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
>
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Justin Sinclair]

I did this really strange thing and wrote to the GFA asking them to remove it

JJ

Justin Sinclair
17 Queen St
Scarborough Qld

0421061811

Sent from my iPad

Begin forwarded message:

From: Justin Sinclair 
mailto:jjsincl...@optusnet.com.au>>
Date: 30 January 2017 at 7:49:17 am AEST
To: bo...@glidingaustralia.org
Cc: presid...@glidingaustralia.org, 
e...@glidingaustralia.org
Subject: GFA face book post

Hi GFA,

Can we get this removed from the Facebook page, I truly get the frustrations of 
whomever posted it, however posts like this do much irreparable damage in the 
modern social media world.

Kind regards

Justin sinclair
Kingaroy

[cid:3029198B-CCEB-4412-9EAF-FB989FC4B554]



Justin Sinclair
17 Queen St
Scarborough Qld

0421061811

Sent from my iPad

Justin Sinclair
17 Queen St
Scarborough Qld

0421061811

Sent from my iPad

On 30 Jan. 2017, at 7:50 am, Glenn McLean 
mailto:glenn...@bigpond.com>> wrote:



On 1/30/2017 6:59 AM, Richard Frawley wrote:
So, what have YOU done to assist glidings future in the last 6 months???

I have done what I always do Richard- Support my club, Give my time freely to 
teach students and visitors, and spread my enthusiasm to others I come in 
contact with. In short,
What have I done? Plenty more than yourself.
Glenn

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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[emillis prelgauskas]

Thank you Richard,

even though my contribution is spread over 50 years, I am still in there 
pitching for a future for gliding at the coal face. In the last 6 months I have 
-
- contributed to a neighbouring club whose CFI ‘retired’ because of the ever 
increasing onerous impositions by GFA on these volunteer positions
- I am organising a passenger day for non-gliding people on the ‘aerial 
excursion principle' (even though I will fork out $30 per person out of my own 
pocket to make it happen (yes the GFA AEF tax)
- a few people know the museum and library which I run tours through for 
non-gliding people as a contact point for the sport (thank you Mandy for the 
offer of GFA assistance, but really, GFA is so far off the mark that I have to 
declare independence to get useful things done)
and so on

So, Richard, be happy in your ignorance of the real state of the sport, 
continue to believe that the faffing about by the GFA actually matters. 
Meanwhile real people during real things will just get on with it.
And to Ulrich - your years of sacrifice for the sport are held in regard by 
some people, who know what is really going on.

Emilis

On 30 Jan 2017, at 6:29 am, Richard Frawley  wrote:

> i assume most people know that gliding requires a minimum membership size to 
> keep the cost and freedoms we enjoy possible.
> 
> if you have not noticed we are actually under the minimum membership for 
> sustainability.
> 
> This is a problem anyone who wants reasonable continuance needs to own and 
> assist with.
> 
> The general lethargy towards this problem is significant. The GFA have very 
> limited means due in the main to budget constraints to do much about this 
> issue. John with just about no resource has been doing a great job as a 
> volunteer. He is however frustrated by the above lethargy after 3 years in 
> the role.
> 
> So, what have YOU done to assist glidings future in the last 6 months???
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Glenn McLean]

On 1/30/2017 6:59 AM, Richard Frawley wrote:

So, what have YOU done to assist glidings future in the last 6 months???

I have done what I always do Richard- Support my club, Give my time 
freely to teach students and visitors, and spread my enthusiasm to 
others I come in contact with. In short,

What have I done? Plenty more than yourself.
Glenn

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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Richard Frawley]

i assume most people know that gliding requires a minimum membership size to 
keep the cost and freedoms we enjoy possible.

if you have not noticed we are actually under the minimum membership for 
sustainability.

This is a problem anyone who wants reasonable continuance needs to own and 
assist with.

The general lethargy towards this problem is significant. The GFA have very 
limited means due in the main to budget constraints to do much about this 
issue. John with just about no resource has been doing a great job as a 
volunteer. He is however frustrated by the above lethargy after 3 years in the 
role.

So, what have YOU done to assist glidings future in the last 6 months???


 

 

> On 29 Jan 2017, at 11:24 PM, Ulrich Stauss  wrote:
> 
> list
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[Aus-soaring] GFA Negative Advertising and Censorship?

[Ulrich Stauss]

Has somebody in GFA Marketing and Development lost their marbles?

The attached post essentially blaming the membership for "not getting off
their collective butts" continues a string of similarly negative posts
mainly on Facebook and has prompted quite a few comments from upset members,
several of which - including mine - were removed and at least in my case I
am now blocked from the GFA page.

The same happened to me in response to my remark/question I posted in the
thread below which I had initially posed in an FB comment on the WGC2017
Benalla page: the comment was deleted and I was blocked from the page.

 

Rather than blaming the general membership for not magically implementing
ideas that somebody may have floated at some stage how about some effective
leadership and change management from whoever posted these rants and blocked
me from the pages (I am assuming "they" are both the same person).

 

It would also be a good idea to add the name of the person responsible to
anything they post on behalf of the GFA.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Ulrich

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of Ulrich Stauss
Sent: Friday, 20 January 2017 13:36
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Worlds coverage

 

Does anyone know why the live streaming comes online at the end and not
already for the Opening Ceremony?

Also, what were the problems initially? The organisers seem to think that it
was "Due to technical issues, Australia's ancient Internet system" (which I
think is not good form to post on a public and official web forum) and
offered another link.

Both streams now seem to work well though at least for me:

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLmdBix3H_E

  http://player.5stream.com/16094

 

Ulrich

-Original Message-

From: Aus-soaring [ 
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of Casey Jay Lewis

Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2017 13:06

To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.

<  aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au>

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Worlds coverage

 

Another John Styles rant I suspect. 

 

Carries a lot of anger that one. 

 

CJ

 

iPhone Transmission

 

> On 18 Jan 2017, at 10:33, Richard Hatch < 
rhatch...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 

> Can anyone enlighten me to the comments posted from the GFA and the 

> WGC in

relation to the sponsors yesterday. Seemed pretty weird and childish. They
have been deleted now I see.

> 

> Ritch

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