Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Putting our research on Ancestry

[João Ventura]

Hi Doug,

Where did you get the idea that recent information is published?? By law, 
only data that's more than 100 years old is being made available. The rest 
is all in the civil parishes, where you have a sort of 'FOIA' right to 
request a copy of any vital record, but I wouldn't call it publishing...
 
Then again, you might think that 100 years is recent. Granted I do believe 
I'm younger that you :)

Regards,

Joao C. Ventura

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 11:16:23 PM UTC+1, Doug da Rocha Holmes 
wrote:
>
> I like the way the more recent information is treated in Portugal - i.e. 
> they publish it.
> So I agree with Hermano and JM.
>
> Yea, I know there are potential risks with posting information on living 
> people, but if you think about it, how is that worse than what the NSA does 
> in collecting every scrap of information for their future chance to arrest 
> you for something real or imagined?
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>   Original Message 
> Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Putting our research on Ancestry
> From: "Hermano C. Pires" >
> Date: Thu, December 19, 2013 2:54 pm
> To: "azo...@googlegroups.com " 
> 
> >
>
> For my own reasons I do agree with you JM
>  
> --
> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:39:16 -0800
> From: jademe...@comcast.net 
> To: azo...@googlegroups.com 
> Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Putting our research on Ancestry
>
> I am on ancestry.com w/family trees for Medeiros (father) Roque (mother)
> My trees are up to anyone who wants to see it
> I do not want anyone touching my trees and changing anything, I have to 
> check settings
> My trees are what they are
> All family that I know, living or dead
> One question, which is a pet peeve of mine when seeing other peoples trees 
> Why the private on the living?
>
> JM
>
>  

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Putting our research on Ancestry

[João Ventura]

José,

It's a matter of opinion, until you break the law. At that moment it 
becomes a matter for lawyers and judges.
Just be careful when you post information on living people. Be sure to 
obtain their consent before. Or just be careful and don't post any of that 
in a way that can be considered 'public'.

João C. Ventura

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 11:34:44 PM UTC+1, Jose A Medeiros wrote:
>
> João,
>
> I am not going to disagree w/you
> We all have opinions and we have to respect each others opinion
> Only talking can we understand one another
>
> JM
>
> On Thursday, 19 December 2013 17:22:55 UTC-5, João Ventura wrote:
>
>> José,
>>
>> Most countries have privacy laws that forbid you from posting that kind 
>> of information online. Article 8 of the human rights charter even grants 
>> you the right to privacy (yes, you read that right: it's a human rights 
>> issue).
>>
>> In Portugal at least, you can actually post that kind of data on a 
>> database that's been approved to do so by the CNPD, as long as it's for 
>> scientifc purposes (and genealogy IS a science)... Honestly, I'm not sure 
>> if the Ancestry.com DB is authorized by the CNPD, and also, I clearly do 
>> not want any of my family data out there. My system protects the privacy of 
>> the living, or the dead until 10 years after their death. Or until the 
>> system considers that the person is 100 years old.. I've got an aunt, whose 
>> data is going to become public in 6 days, when she turns 100 :) But she's 
>> the first one in over 2000 people in my DB to reach that age in these days 
>> where that fact is checkable.
>>
>> João C. Ventura
>>
>> On Thursday, December 19, 2013 10:39:16 PM UTC+1, Jose A Medeiros wrote:
>>>
>>> I am on ancestry.com w/family trees for Medeiros (father) Roque (mother)
>>> My trees are up to anyone who wants to see it
>>> I do not want anyone touching my trees and changing anything, I have to 
>>> check settings
>>> My trees are what they are
>>> All family that I know, living or dead
>>> One question, which is a pet peeve of mine when seeing other peoples 
>>> trees 
>>> Why the private on the living?
>>>
>>> JM
>>>
>>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Indices added to Sao Sebastiao

[João Ventura]

Rick,

I can also recommend that you check my website http://tombo.pt everyday.. 
If that number in front of "Centro de Conhecimento dos Açores" moves from 
4312, just go into the articles below, where the new parish books are 
listed. I'm running a simple book finder script every 24h, which will 
guarantee that number to be correct at about 6:00 UTC.

I've added a simple in-line translation service by Google, which 
non-speakers can use to turn the site into their own language. Sometimes 
with hilarious results, like this case: http://tombo.pt/f/pdl10

Regards,

João Ventura

On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 5:24:24 PM UTC+1, Richard Francis Pimentel 
wrote:
>
> *This morning I look and the Indices for Sao Sebastiao, PD have been 
> added.*
>
>  
>
> *Rick*
>
>  
>
> *Richard Francis Pimentel*
>
> *Spring, TX*
>
> *Formerly of Epping, New Hampshire *
>
>  
>
> *Researching, Riberia Grande, Riberinha, Achada Grande,  Bretanha, and 
> Ponta Delgada,  Sao Miguel, Acores*
>
>  
>
>  
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Putting our research on Ancestry

[João Ventura]

José,

Most countries have privacy laws that forbid you from posting that kind of 
information online. Article 8 of the human rights charter even grants you 
the right to privacy (yes, you read that right: it's a human rights issue).

In Portugal at least, you can actually post that kind of data on a database 
that's been approved to do so by the CNPD, as long as it's for scientifc 
purposes (and genealogy IS a science)... Honestly, I'm not sure if the 
Ancestry.com DB is authorized by the CNPD, and also, I clearly do not want 
any of my family data out there. My system protects the privacy of the 
living, or the dead until 10 years after their death. Or until the system 
considers that the person is 100 years old.. I've got an aunt, whose data 
is going to become public in 6 days, when she turns 100 :) But she's the 
first one in over 2000 people in my DB to reach that age in these days 
where that fact is checkable.

João C. Ventura

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 10:39:16 PM UTC+1, Jose A Medeiros wrote:
>
> I am on ancestry.com w/family trees for Medeiros (father) Roque (mother)
> My trees are up to anyone who wants to see it
> I do not want anyone touching my trees and changing anything, I have to 
> check settings
> My trees are what they are
> All family that I know, living or dead
> One question, which is a pet peeve of mine when seeing other peoples trees 
> Why the private on the living?
>
> JM
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Putting our research on Ancestry

[João Ventura]

Marcia,

I have so many objections on this:
1. Has this researcher been paid by Ancestry to hook clients into the great 
Ancestry.com paywall? What happens if you're not a subscriber, do you get a 
free pass to that information?
2. In ancestry.com, the information belongs to Ancestry. What happens to 
that info if - unlikely, but possible - Ancestry.com goes bankrupt? Is that 
data gone?
3. Can you correct that info? i.e. will an error just be allowed to stand 
uncorrected?

I've got all my research online (I'm the João Ventura mentioned by Doug in 
another reply). But it's my own site. Collaboration on that tree is limited 
to people I know, and it provides me the flexibility to post everything I 
want. There are ways to have this information available to all interested 
parties. I'd suggest that she creates a website for the book (in 
Wordpress.com or something similar), and enables people to download the 
GEDCOMs used to build the data in the book. That way, it will be "out 
there" in a format useful to anyone - including Ancestry.com users who want 
to use that system, but also for you to place in your own genealogy 
program. If she's interested, and the local historical society has the 
budget to run their own website, I can provide some pointers on how to 
setup webtrees (UK Royal Family demo here: 
http://svn.webtrees.net/demo-stable/).

Best regards,

Joao C..Ventura
the one running http://tombo.pt

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 6:41:11 PM UTC+1, Marcia wrote:
>
> We have been approached by a researcher tasked with updating a book about 
> the Portuguese settlers in Mendocino County, California, who are all 
> primarily from the Azores.   We have determined that she is legitimate and 
> has been tasked by the local historical society which owns the rights to 
> the original book.We support the project very much, and do plan to 
> help, as the original book contains quite a few errors and omissions and 
> has been out of print for years.However, the researcher intends to 
> create a Public Ancestry Tree for each of the families to aid in 
> collaboration with the descendents of the families.   We are not really 
> keen on seeing our years of research placed on Ancestry, as we've all 
> experienced issues with how information can be mis-used, exploited, etc. 
> from Ancestry.At a minimum we would not allow her to use data about 
> living people on the internet.  
>
> We'd like to know what members of the group think about this.   Has 
> anything similar happened to you?   Is your work on Ancestry?What pros 
> and cons can you think of?   I haven't discussed this with the researcher 
> yet, wanting to hear your thoughts first. 
>
> Thanks very much for anything you can offer - Marcia Andre
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: CCA

[João Ventura]

Cheri,

I totally disagree.. They can do one of two things:

1. change the filter name from Freguesia to Paróquia and then change all 
the names to the name of the catholic parish.
2. keep the current filter as 'Freguesia', but then they do have to be 
consistent in using the name of the civil parish. Which means that São 
Miguel -> Nordeste -> São Jorge should actually be renamed  from São Jorge 
to Nordeste, as that's the name of the civil parish.

As most maps will reflect the name of the civil parish at best, I'd vote 
for the 2nd one.

True, the only reason they can get away with it is the fact that in 1911, 
when the civil parishes were cretead, they were exactly the same area as 
the catholic parishes. In the meantime, several civil parishes were created 
by splitting a previous one. And in mainland Portugal they've just 
eliminated about 1/3 of the 4000+ civil parishes by merging many of them.

 Do note that I noted down the name of the patron saint in my 
http://tombo.pt site, so if you're ever confused which church is what you 
might get away with doing a search for 'patron saint' + municipality. One 
of these days, I'll try to improve the search to provide better per-field 
faceted search.

Regards,

João Ventura

On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 3:36:24 AM UTC+1, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> I don't know if someone from the CCA is on the list as they have never 
> told me if they are.  It would not surprise me if someone from the CCA is a 
> listmember.
>
> So on Sao Miguel, 4 councils are listed.
> Lagoa: Matriz de Santa Cruz
> Nordeste: The word Matriz does not appear
> Ponta Delgada: The word Matriz does not appear
> Povoacao: Matriz da Mae de Deus
>
> It's still not consistent.
>
> Other islands:
> Faial: Matriz da Horta
>
> Terceira, Sao Jorge, Pico, and Flores have no "Matriz" listed.
>
> So, if they take out the word "Matriz" from Faial and from the councils of 
> Lagoa and Povoacao on Sao Miguel, they will be consistent.
>
> Thank you CCA!
>
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada 
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Matriz and the council

[João Ventura]

Dano, and everyone else,

You're forgetting an important detail here. When you go to the CCA site, 
the filter is Ilha/Concelho/Freguesia. We do have different words in 
Portugal for Freguesia (civil parish) and Paróquia (church parish). And the 
word used there is clearly not 'Paróquia'. Which makes sense, since it is a 
government website.. And since I used more or less the same official 
information when building up the tombo.pt 'freguesia' database, you'll find 
these same parish names in my db.

João C. Ventura

On Monday, December 16, 2013 11:26:26 PM UTC+1, Dano wrote:
>
> Cheri, it looks like everyone is confused! In all of the time that I've 
> been researching the Azores (more than some and less than others), I have 
> never come across a jurisdiction referred to as Matriz-Civil. The name of 
> the Civil Registry is just as one would expect it to be, "Registro Civil." 
> Matriz is a "Church term" meaning "Mother Church." It dates back to before 
> parishes (freguesias) were assigned to a particular "conselho." For many 
> years the freguesia of São Paulo in Ribeira Quente was under the 
> jurisdiction Arcanjo Sao Miguel da Villa Franca - although geographically, 
> it fell within the boundaries of Povoacao. The same held true for a number 
> of other parishes that were under the jurisdiction of Divino Espírito Santo 
> in Maia, Nossa Senhora da Estrella, in Ribeira Grande, or Sao Jorge, in 
> Nordeste. Some of those parishes eventually ended up in those other 
> Conselhos - while others did not.

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Matriz and the council

[João Ventura]

Olá, José

It's a known fact that the patron saint of the Nordeste parish is São 
Jorge: http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordeste_(freguesia). Look for 'Orago' 
on the right side panel of the Wiki page.

Cumprimentos,

João C. Ventura

On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:26:05 PM UTC+1, Jose A Medeiros wrote:
>
> Never had heard of a São Jorge in Nordeste, have to ask a friend from 
> there about it when I see him
>
> On Monday, 16 December 2013 04:33:34 UTC-5, João Ventura wrote:
>>
>> Hi Cheri,
>>
>> Actually you're right, they are the ones confused. But to add to the 
>> confusion, here's the list of official names of those freguesias, listing 
>> municipality and then the freguesia:
>>
>> Santa Maria island (only 1):
>> Vila do Porto: Vila do Porto (not up in CCA yet)
>>
>> Sao Miguel island (6 Matriz')
>> Lagoa: Santa Cruz (not the same as CCA: Matriz de Santa Cruz)
>> Nordeste: Nordeste (not the same as CCA: São Jorge)
>> Ponta Delgada: São Sebastião (not the same as CCA: Matriz de São 
>> Sebastião -- however, until 2003 the freguesia's official name was Matriz 
>> (Ponta Delgada) - if not for the above, I'd believe they were using a 10y+ 
>> old table of freguesias).
>> Povoação: Povoação (not the same as CCA: Matriz da Mãe de Deus)
>> Ribeira Grande: Matriz (not up in CCA yet)
>> Vila Franca do Campo: São Miguel Arcanjo (not up in CCA yet)
>>
>> Terceira island (2 Matriz')
>> Angra do Heroismo: Sé (same as CCA)
>> Praia da Vitoria: Santa Cruz (same as CCA)
>>
>> Graciosa island (only 1)
>> Santa Cruz da Graciosa: Santa Cruz da Graciosa (not up in CCA yet)
>>
>> Sao Jorge island (2 Matriz')
>> Calheta: Calheta (same as CCA)
>> Velas: Velas (same as CCA)
>>
>> Faial island (1 Matriz)
>> Horta: Matriz (same as CCA)
>>
>> Pico island (3 Matriz')
>> Lajes do Pico: Lajes do Pico (same as CCA)
>> Madalena: Madalena (same as CCA)
>> São Roque do Pico: São Roque do Pico (same as CCA)
>>
>> Flores island (2 Matriz')
>> Lajes das Flores: Lajes das Flores (same as CCA)
>> Santa Cruz das Flores: Santa Cruz das Flores (same as CCA)
>>
>> Corvo island
>> Vila do Corvo: Vila do Corvo (same as CCA)
>>
>> For the 7 islands that are up, the "They're using the official name of 
>> the freguesia" explanation holds up for 6 islands. They're terribly 
>> confused about São Miguel aparently.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> João C. Ventura
>>
>> On Monday, December 16, 2013 1:24:46 AM UTC+1, Cheri Mello wrote:
>>>
>>> Joao C. Ventura said:
>>> <>> confusing the church parish with the freguesia civil (translated roughly as 
>>> civil parish). The CCA site uses the official name of the freguesia.. Which 
>>> in most cases, as they were created in 1911 as one-to-one mapping of the 
>>> church parishes, used the same name of the catholic parish.. In some cases 
>>> not, as in this Matriz / São Sebastião case.>>
>>>
>>> OK, let me try to straighten myself out.  If I'm not doing this right, 
>>> then feel free to straighten me out!  :)  They are calling some of these 
>>> places "Matriz."
>>>
>>> Santa Maria island (only 1):
>>> Vila do Porto
>>> The Matriz is Nossa Senhora da Assuncao in Vila do Porto.
>>> CCA not up yet.
>>>
>>> Sao Miguel island (6 Matriz')
>>> Lagoa
>>> The Matriz is Santa Cruz in Lagoa.
>>> The CCA listing says Matriz de Santa Cruz
>>> Nordeste
>>> The Matriz is Sao Jorge in Nordeste
>>> The CCA listing says nothing about a Matriz
>>> Ponta Delgada
>>> The Matriz is Sao Sebastiao in Ponta Delgada
>>> The CCA listing says Matriz de Sao Sebastiao
>>> Povoacao
>>> The Matriz is Nossa Senhora Mae de Deus in Povoacao
>>> The CCA listing says Matriz de Mae de Deus
>>> Ribeira Grande
>>> The Matriz is Nossa Senhora da Estrela in Ribeira Grande
>>> CCA not up yet.
>>> Vila Franca do Campo
>>> The Matriz is Sao Miguel Arcanjo in Vila Franca do Campo
>>> CCA not up yet.
>>>
>>> Terceira island (2 Matriz')
>>> Angra do Heroismo
>>> Santa Se do Salvador or Sao Salvador which is really the Diocese seat in 
>>> Angra do Heroismo.  So I guess technically there is no Matriz here.
>>> The CCA listing says nothing about a Matriz or a Diocese or a cathedral.
>>>
>>> Praia da Vitoria
>&

[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Matriz and the council

[João Ventura]

Hi Cheri,

Actually you're right, they are the ones confused. But to add to the 
confusion, here's the list of official names of those freguesias, listing 
municipality and then the freguesia:

Santa Maria island (only 1):
Vila do Porto: Vila do Porto (not up in CCA yet)

Sao Miguel island (6 Matriz')
Lagoa: Santa Cruz (not the same as CCA: Matriz de Santa Cruz)
Nordeste: Nordeste (not the same as CCA: São Jorge)
Ponta Delgada: São Sebastião (not the same as CCA: Matriz de São Sebastião 
-- however, until 2003 the freguesia's official name was Matriz (Ponta 
Delgada) - if not for the above, I'd believe they were using a 10y+ old 
table of freguesias).
Povoação: Povoação (not the same as CCA: Matriz da Mãe de Deus)
Ribeira Grande: Matriz (not up in CCA yet)
Vila Franca do Campo: São Miguel Arcanjo (not up in CCA yet)

Terceira island (2 Matriz')
Angra do Heroismo: Sé (same as CCA)
Praia da Vitoria: Santa Cruz (same as CCA)

Graciosa island (only 1)
Santa Cruz da Graciosa: Santa Cruz da Graciosa (not up in CCA yet)

Sao Jorge island (2 Matriz')
Calheta: Calheta (same as CCA)
Velas: Velas (same as CCA)

Faial island (1 Matriz)
Horta: Matriz (same as CCA)

Pico island (3 Matriz')
Lajes do Pico: Lajes do Pico (same as CCA)
Madalena: Madalena (same as CCA)
São Roque do Pico: São Roque do Pico (same as CCA)

Flores island (2 Matriz')
Lajes das Flores: Lajes das Flores (same as CCA)
Santa Cruz das Flores: Santa Cruz das Flores (same as CCA)

Corvo island
Vila do Corvo: Vila do Corvo (same as CCA)

For the 7 islands that are up, the "They're using the official name of the 
freguesia" explanation holds up for 6 islands. They're terribly confused 
about São Miguel aparently.

Regards,

João C. Ventura

On Monday, December 16, 2013 1:24:46 AM UTC+1, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> Joao C. Ventura said:
> < confusing the church parish with the freguesia civil (translated roughly as 
> civil parish). The CCA site uses the official name of the freguesia.. Which 
> in most cases, as they were created in 1911 as one-to-one mapping of the 
> church parishes, used the same name of the catholic parish.. In some cases 
> not, as in this Matriz / São Sebastião case.>>
>
> OK, let me try to straighten myself out.  If I'm not doing this right, 
> then feel free to straighten me out!  :)  They are calling some of these 
> places "Matriz."
>
> Santa Maria island (only 1):
> Vila do Porto
> The Matriz is Nossa Senhora da Assuncao in Vila do Porto.
> CCA not up yet.
>
> Sao Miguel island (6 Matriz')
> Lagoa
> The Matriz is Santa Cruz in Lagoa.
> The CCA listing says Matriz de Santa Cruz
> Nordeste
> The Matriz is Sao Jorge in Nordeste
> The CCA listing says nothing about a Matriz
> Ponta Delgada
> The Matriz is Sao Sebastiao in Ponta Delgada
> The CCA listing says Matriz de Sao Sebastiao
> Povoacao
> The Matriz is Nossa Senhora Mae de Deus in Povoacao
> The CCA listing says Matriz de Mae de Deus
> Ribeira Grande
> The Matriz is Nossa Senhora da Estrela in Ribeira Grande
> CCA not up yet.
> Vila Franca do Campo
> The Matriz is Sao Miguel Arcanjo in Vila Franca do Campo
> CCA not up yet.
>
> Terceira island (2 Matriz')
> Angra do Heroismo
> Santa Se do Salvador or Sao Salvador which is really the Diocese seat in 
> Angra do Heroismo.  So I guess technically there is no Matriz here.
> The CCA listing says nothing about a Matriz or a Diocese or a cathedral.
>
> Praia da Vitoria
> The Matriz is Santa Cruz in Praia da Vitoria
> The CCA listing says nothing about a Matriz
>
> Graciosa island (only 1)
> The Matriz is Santa Cruz in Santa Cruz
> CCA not up yet
>
> Sao Jorge island (2 Matriz')
> Calheta
> The Matriz Santa Catarina in Calheta.
> The CCA listing says nothing about a Matriz
>
> Velas
> The Matriz is Sao Jorge in Velas
> The CCA listing says nothing about a Matriz
>
> Faial island (1 Matriz)
> The Matriz is Sao Salvador in Horta
> The CCA listing says Matriz da Horta
>
>
> Pico island (3 Matriz')
> Lajes (do Pico)
> The Matriz is Santissima Trindade in Lajes
> The CCA listing says nothing about a Matriz
> Madalena
> The Matriz is Santa Maria Madalena in Madalena
> The CCA listing says nothing about a Matriz
> Sao Roque
> The Matriz is Sao Roque in Sao Roque
> The CCA listing says nothing about a Matriz
>
> Flores island (2 Matriz')
> Lajes (do Flores)
> The Matriz is Nossa Senhora do Rosario in Lajes
> The CCA listing says nothing about a Matriz
> Santa Cruz (das Flores)
> The Matriz is Nossa Senhora da Conceicao in Santa Cruz
> The CCA listing says nothing about a Matriz
>
> Corvo island
> There's only 1 church there.  Nossa Senhora dos Milagres in Vila Nova.  I 
> don't think it holds Matriz status. The CCA says nothing about it either.
>
> OK, so why does the CCA list Lagoa, Ponta Delgada, Povoacao, and Faial 
> under "M" for Matriz but then lists Nordeste (Sao Jorge), Angra (Sao 
> Salvador), Praia (Santa Cruz), Calheta (Santa Catarina), Velas (Sao Jorge), 
> Lajes do Pico (Santissima Trindade), Santa Maria Madalena, Sao Roque (both 
> 

[AZORES-Genealogy] Announcing tombo.pt: a new site for the genealogists interested in Portugal

[João Ventura]

Hello everyone,

I'm happy to announce that last week, I made available the http://tombo.pt 
website. The objective of this site is to make it (a lot) easier to access 
the Portuguese parish records.

Among other features:
- List of new parish books from the previous day. I just enabled it to also 
search the Azores automatically, so disregard the São Sebastião date.
- Simple browsing via District -> Municipality -> Parish. Do note that I'm 
using the 1911 districts, so the Azores districts are: Angra do Heroísmo, 
Horta and Ponta Delgada.
- Merging the books of different archives into the same parish. Not 
applicable to those researching in the Azores. But it may be a revelation 
for those searching in mainland Portugal: some of those 'lost' books are 
actually in Lisbon.
- Search capability (search for the parish, and with a bit of luck the site 
will list it).

The site is still under development, but from now on, it's only new 
features or cosmetic changes (the site's style is still a bit raw).

Happy researching,

Joao C. Ventura
http://tombo.pt

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] CCA site

[João Ventura]

Cheri,

They're not inconsistent. The problem is yours, actually: you're confusting 
the church parish with the freguesia civil (translated roughly as civil 
parish). The CCA site uses the official name of the freguesia.. Which in 
most cases, as they were created in 1911 as one-to-one mapping of the 
church parishes, used the same name of the catholic parish.. In some cases 
not, as in this Matriz / São Sebastião case.

Joao C. Ventura

On Sunday, December 15, 2013 5:22:05 PM UTC+1, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> Kathy Cardoza spent several hours redoing the Azores GenWeb pages so they 
> have the same info as the CCA site.  So we can view Sao Miguel here:  
> http://goo.gl/Z70Ncr
>
> It looks like they need Santo Antonio and Sao Vicente Ferreira and that 
> will complete Ponta Delgada.  
>
> They seem to do things a little inconsistently in the names (Matriz, 
> instead of the name of the church), but yet you look in the council of 
> Nordeste and there appears to be no Matriz.  It's there, it's called Sao 
> Jorge.  We need to look both ways!
>
> Their email does say "and."  But now they tell Angela they don't know.  
> Graciosa has 4 freguesias and Santa Maria had 4 freguesias filmed, but 5 
> freguesias exist today.  
>
> If they post those 2 islands and go back to Ribeira Grande, the order (via 
> the Azores GenWeb - thank you Kathy!) should be:
> Calhetas, Fenais da Ajuda or Fenais de Vera Cruz (old name), Lomba da 
> Maia, Maia, Pico da Pedra, Porto Formoso, Rabo de Peixe, Ribeira Grande 
> (N.S. da Estrella is the Matriz, I think), Ribeira Grande - N. S. da 
> Conceicao, Ribeira Seca, and is Ribeirnha part of R.Grande?  So that's 10 
> or 11 parishes.
>
> Vila Franca do Campo has 5: Agua d'Alto, Ponta Garca, Ribeira das Tainhas, 
> Vila Franca - Sao Miguel Arcanjo (Matriz), and Vila Franca do Campo - Sao 
> Pedro.  There's a newer freguesia called Ribeira Seca that was founded in 
> 2002 (broke of from S.Miguel Arcanjo - the Matriz).  Geez, there's one over 
> in R.Grande called Ribeira Seca.  I think they need a law that says you 
> can't have 2 freguesias with the same name on the same island.
>
> Instead of discussing it here and how happy we are with the records, I 
> think we should email the CCA and tell them how we appreciate all their 
> hard work: drac...@azores.gov.pt 
>
> And while you are thanking people, you can just hit reply to this email 
> and thank Kathy for her work on the Azores GenWeb.
>
> And as Eileen said, it used to take a very long time to work a line before 
> digitized records.  I could spend a year on just ONE ancestor.  I spent 4 
> years tracing my immigrant ancestor, trying to find the freguesia.  Today, 
> I could probably figure out the freguesia in a month!  We've come a long 
> way!!!
>
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada 
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] European Portuguese?

[João Ventura]

Hi all,

Cheri, normally it's called European Portuguese, or Portuguese Portuguese 
(!).. As opposed to Brazilian, Angolan, etc. Only people living in an 
island (i.e. the Azoreans), would ever call it "Continental". Brazil, by 
itself is more of a continent than mainland Portugal is, in any 
circumstance.

Anthony, educational materials are usually geared towards Brazilian 
Portuguese, with an appendix on the changes to European Portuguese 
(pronunciation is slightly different, and we use the informal "you", where 
Brazilians use the formal "you" - if you know spanish it's a bit like the 
"tu" and "usted"). It won't be easy to find professionally-built materials 
with an emphasis on European Portuguese (the market is just not big enough).
Some pointers:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL798E43B657A12CEE
http://www.amazon.com/Portuguese-European-Compact-Understand-Pimsleur/dp/0743550668/ref=pd_sim_sw_2

João

On Friday, December 6, 2013 4:59:45 AM UTC+1, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> Tony S,
>
> I learned it was called "continential" Portuguese.
>
> I'm sure everyone has their favorite.  I bought cassette tapes back in the 
> day that came with a course book.  It was the Living Language series.
>
> Google: living language continental portuguese
> Amazon.com sells it still on cassette or CD.
>
> Others will tell you what they use.
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada 
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Tavares / Resendes (Santo Antonio Alem Capelas)

[João Ventura]

This is why I got a copy of my father's birth certificate, even though he's 
still alive. Also got my parents marriage certificate. Now I'm sure I'm a 
'filho legitimo' :) Can't be too sure who to trust in this day and age.

And yes, I'm joking. Except I really do have those certificates, because 
I'm running a fact-based operation on my DB. I even have my own marriage 
certificate on file, even though I clearly remember the event.

João C  Ventura

On Sunday, December 1, 2013 12:51:14 AM UTC+1, Pam Santos wrote:
>
> Don't you love it when people give you wrong info and you research it for 
> a long time? My Dad told me his Mom's name was Pat, I looked high and low 
> for this Pat and nothing. Come to find out  that was her nickname her real 
> name was Georgia!!!
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 3:17 PM, John Raposo 
> > wrote:
>
>> I have done some extensive research in Santo António além Capelas. If you 
>> give me the particulars relative to your great grandfather, (date of birth, 
>> parents, date of marriage, name of spouse, name of grandparents, if you 
>> have them). I have an index for all the available marriage records for 
>> Santo António/Santa Bárbara from 1910-back.
>>
>> John Miranda Raposo
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   On Saturday, November 30, 2013 5:52 PM, rchaves 
>> > 
>> wrote:
>>  Hello,
>>
>> I am looking for relatives possibly in the area of Fall River MA, 
>> descendants of (guessing) Maria Resendes Furtado. I still am not sure, as I 
>> was unable to confirm her name, either maiden Resendes or Tavares, or 
>> married Furtado. We lost track of this family probably in the 1950's. This 
>> lady is my G Grandfather's sister, Jose Tavares Resendes, and they were 
>> born in Santo Antonio. She went to US before 1950 and she was born prior 
>> 1900. I am researching this name (Tavares and Resendes) in Santo Antonio 
>> Alem Capelas. Because I was given wrong information, I researched this line 
>> of the family for over 2 years in the wrong Parish, Ribeira Grande. Only 
>> this year I got new info that htey were from Santo Antonio, and that was 
>> "gold" as it dint took long to find my G Grandfather. Anyone active in 
>> Santo Antonio?
>>
>>
>> Thank you all.
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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Manue dos Santos Marriage 18 Dec 1788 Agua do Pau ( CCA#105)

[João Ventura]

Herb,

Seems to me clearly to be Severa. Probably de Paiva (Payva). Unless you're 
out of luck, it's a fairly uncommon name (at least in my experience). It 
should be easy to find her marriage, by looking at all the marriages 
between Manuel dos Santos and Severa. I'd actually start with locating her 
death record, which was probably only a few months or years before, and 
clearly was in the same church. That might give you some details on whether 
they had kids, and how old she was, which will help a lot in trying to 
triangulate their marriage date.

João C. Ventura

On Friday, November 29, 2013 6:02:41 PM UTC+1, Herb wrote:
>
> Hello.  My wife is shopping so I took this opportunity to do a little bit 
> of research.  There are 26 shoppng days left anyway, plenty of time. 
>  
>
> *http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-LG-AGUADEPAU-C-1769-1808/SMG-LG-AGUADEPAU-C-1769-1808_item1/P106.html*
>  
> Can anyone make out the first name of the viuvo's wife in this record.  It 
> looks like her  last name was  Payva or Paiva. It is difficut to tell.  
> Could it be Severa de Payva, maybe Maria de Payva? or Paiva
>  
>   She was "sepultada" buried in the church.  His second wife was 
> Ana Jacinta Oliveira.  If I knew the first wife's full name I may be able 
> to locate that marriage and find Manuel's parents names which likley also 
> took place in Agua de Pau
>  
> Thank you
>  
> Herb
>  
>  
>
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-LG-AGUADEPAU-C-1769-1808/SMG-LG-AGUADEPAU-C-1769-1808_item1/P106.html
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Sao Roque do Rosto de Cao Baptism CCA

[João Ventura]

And now the weddings, deaths and adoptions are up.

Next up, São Sebastião?

On Thursday, November 21, 2013 2:18:35 PM UTC+1, Pam Santos wrote:
>
> Are up on CCA site.
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Need one word help

[João Ventura]

No need to correct you.. You're spot on.

On Tuesday, November 19, 2013 4:55:24 AM UTC+1, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> Or the guy that cured them and sold them or took them into town. I believe 
> the Portuguese spelling is tremoço.  A native speaker can correct me.
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada 
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Porto Judeu - missing books

[João Ventura]

Hey Cheri

There's a situation similar to that... The marriage book for Corvo 
1655-1671, is listed and was scanned by the LDS Church (
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/353744?availability=Family%20History%20Library).
 
However their catalog (no longer online, but used to be at 
http://www.arquivos.azores.gov.pt/), indicates the book has gone missing 
from the archives. It's not like the case indicated by Doug in another 
thread where the books weren't rescanned because of their bad conservation 
status. It's gone missing from the archive between the time the LDS 
microfilmed them (I'd say late 1980s), and now. I do hope somebody will 
find it one of these days...

This is another of those moments that I thank the LDS Church for the work 
they're doing, even if I totally disagree with end purpose. But then again, 
it's a bit like modern rockets. They were created in the 1940s to blow up 
the enemy. And now they allow humanity to venture beyond Earth. Sometimes 
the invention outgrows the inventor.

Regards,

João C: Ventura

On Tuesday, November 19, 2013 12:08:27 AM UTC+1, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> Nivea,
>
> According to Joao Ventura, archivist, that one book is missing.  I would 
> think that if there was a natural disaster, the other books would show some 
> damage.
>
> It's just that books go missing.  It's sad.  Maybe someone "borrowed" it 
> back in the day and it was meant to be returned but wasn't.  I've had a 
> couple of interesting jobs in life and one was to clean out the houses 
> after the tenants moved out so the property could be listed for sale.  I 
> would find library books in these houses!  The Passaportes out of Ponta 
> Delgada existed for that 1883-92 (or so) time period in the 1980s, as Bob 
> De Mello had the Hawaiian emigrants extracted for his book.  But if you go 
> to the archive today, the book is not there.  It wasn't there in the 
> mid-1990s either.  It just disappeared somewhere between the 1980s and 
> 1990s.  It's frustrating.  Hope some of the books show up in someone's home 
> and they return them one day.
>
> Cheri
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 2:55 PM, Nivea >wrote:
>
>> Hi Cheri,
>>
>> I use the CCA website since my family is from Terceira (so far) & that's 
>> where I found that the books were missing. Being that Porto Judeu is a 
>> village by the sea, there might have been some natural disaster that 
>> destroyed the books... I was checking to make sure I wasn't missing some 
>> other website.
>>
>> Thank you for your reply.
>> Nivea
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, November 17, 2013 7:07:21 PM UTC-5, Cheri Mello wrote:
>>>
>>> Nivea,
>>>
>>> Missing from where?
>>>
>>> The Family Search Catalog shows that there are gaps in Porto Judeu's 
>>> marriages in 1828-1829 and in 1840-1859.  http://goo.gl/Cj34F2
>>>
>>> Sadly, historical documents go missing.  Every country has missing 
>>> historical documents.  Hopefully, when the confession rolls come out, some 
>>> missing blanks can be filled in.
>>> Cheri Mello
>>> Listowner, Azores-Gen
>>> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
>>> Tainhas, Achada 
>>>
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>
>
> -- 
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> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada 
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Conceição, Horta records online

[João Ventura]

Hi Doug,

You mean the ones listed 
here: https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/381603 ?

Batismos 1750-1881 Family History Library International Film 1330078 
Batismos 1882-1890 Reconhecimentos de filiação 1876-1898 Family History 
Library International Film 1330079 Item 1
Casamentos 1705-1874 Family History Library International Film 1330079 
Items 2-3
Óbitos 1724-1866 Family History Library International Film 1330079 Items 4-5

The only difference between this list and the one on CCA is that there's a 
marriages span between 1705-1840 that hasn't been made available. They 
might be referring to even earlier birth records. From my snapshot of their 
catalogue, the ones missing are:

Births: 1705-1750 (NOT in the film)
Marriages: 1705-1840 (this is indeed in the LDS microfilm)

I believe they're referring to these two books, and their special 
digitization needs. Let's hope for the best on those...

João C. Ventura

On Friday, November 15, 2013 4:23:03 PM UTC+1, Doug da Rocha Holmes wrote:
>
> I asked the CCA why they haven't yet uploaded the rest of the records for 
> Conceição, Horta and got this terrible news:
>
> The early baptisms and marriages records of Conceição, Horta, were not 
> scanned because of its bad condition caused by the use of the ink 
> ferrogálica, as we say in Portuguese. This ink destroyed the paper. 
>
> I gave them the idea, in case they hadn't yet thought of it themselves, 
> that they can scan the Mormon microfilms at least to have something online.
>
> So until they do something else about it, the earliest records for 
> Conceição are only available on LDS film.
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
> www.dholmes.com
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person

[João Ventura]

Hi Doug,

You can checkout this other webtrees-based website that boasts a pretty 
large DB: http://www.myarnolds.com/

They have 110.000 individuals, and the search seems pretty standard for a 
website. Then again, the genealogy program is just a tool. You're the 
artesan, so just use the tools you feel are best. Even if everyone else 
prefers something else. In my case I wanted something web-based, but I want 
complete control of the database. Something like having my private 
Ancestry.com website. And that's more or less what I have with webtrees.

The problem of moving between different programs is indeed the lack of a 
proper GEDCOM that fits the needs of the individual genealogists. The 
current GEDCOM standard (5.5) was created by FamilySearch 18 years ago. 
There's talk of designing a 'Better GEDCOM', but I don't see a lot of 
enthusiasm there. Until something better comes along, you'll always face 
data loss when exporting and importing through GEDCOM.

Regards,

João Ventura

On Friday, November 15, 2013 9:20:26 AM UTC+1, Doug da Rocha Holmes wrote:
>
> Very interesting, Joao.
>
> I wonder if there is a genealogy program that boasts speed with very large 
> data files.
> I am used to a certain speed when I do a search and would hate to have it 
> lengthened. I would surely consider switching if it were shortened and 
> could also overcome the potential problems that Cheri's email discussed 
> with exporting to gedcom and getting an accurate copy of how I have it now.
>
> All this would take time to research and I don't really feel like 
> investing time into that when I don't have any problems with what I 
> currently use. But it's good info to have for the future.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>   Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person
> From: João_Ventura >
> Date: Fri, November 15, 2013 12:59 am
> To: azo...@googlegroups.com 
>
> Hi Doug..
>
> That webpage IS my program. I believe webtrees to be a pretty good 
> genealogy program, that not only is free, 
>
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person

[João Ventura]

Hi Doug..

That webpage IS my program. I believe webtrees to be a pretty good 
genealogy program, that not only is free, but resides in the 'web'. So I 
can go around and show it or edit it. It's my own private web server 
though, and not many people know how to manage one... It does export to 
GEDCOM, so I can move out of it anytime I want. I even have some accounts 
created for family members so that they can edit their own stuff (subject 
to my later approval).

The reports do include all the names I insert. The search is a bit 
different, it does try to find name variations (if I search for Joao 
Ventura, it will also list José Ventura), but the more terms you enter, the 
more you filter out. If I want to find all couples with Inacio Jose and 
Maria whatever, I'd search for 'Inacio Jose Maria', That search actually 
returns a couple results in my DB. Feel free to try it (
http://venturas.org/familytree/search.php).

João C. Ventura

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 5:25:35 PM UTC+1, Doug da Rocha Holmes wrote:
>
> Hi Joao,
>
> Interesting. Is that how your program looks? I see it's how your webpage 
> looks.
>
> My program is Brother's Keeper. I've stuck with it since the beginning of 
> my research in 1990.
>
> When you generate a report like a family group, will those name variants 
> appear like that, if you set it up for that? That's the ultimate need for 
> me, because I don't want to have to dig up all variations once I am ready 
> to start compiling the books.
>
> And also, can you search for a couple like Joao Ventura and Julieta do 
> Rosario and get all variations of Julieta in that search? I can search for 
> any couple named Inacio Jose and Maria Jose ou Maria da Conceicao and get 
> all named Manuel Jose and Maria Jose to show up in my search results. I 
> would expect any program should do this, but it can't be taken for granted.
>
> Obrigado,
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>   Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person
> From: João_Ventura >
> Date: Thu, November 14, 2013 4:53 am
> To: azo...@googlegroups.com 
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> Of course, the alternate names will show up. They also show up in the 
> individual record. You can try yourself, go to 
> http://venturas.org/familytree/search.php, and search 'Julieta'. You'll 
> get one hit: my grandmother, which used two names (Julieta da Ascenção and 
> Julieta do Rosário Ventura).
>
> Which program do you use that doesn't allow for name aliases? 
>  
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person

[João Ventura]

Hi Doug,

Of course, the alternate names will show up. They also show up in the 
individual record. You can try yourself, go to 
http://venturas.org/familytree/search.php, and search 'Julieta'. You'll get 
one hit: my grandmother, which used two names (Julieta da Ascenção and 
Julieta do Rosário Ventura).

Which program do you use that doesn't allow for name aliases? I know at 
least Roots Magic does (
http://www.tamurajones.net/RootsMagicAlternateNames.xhtml)

João C. Ventura

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 11:34:45 AM UTC+1, Doug da Rocha Holmes 
wrote:
>
> Hi Joao,
>
> I am just wondering if you enter in alternate names and then do a name 
> search, will those alternate names be included in that search?
>
> My program has no alternate names option like you describe. There is 
> something for maiden names/married names.
>
> I am hoping that the method I am using will also make it easier to print 
> out for the books I will publish. I haven't tested it for that purpose yet, 
> since I am decades away from publishing anything.
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>   Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person
> From: João_Ventura >
> Date: Thu, November 14, 2013 1:21 am
> To: azo...@googlegroups.com 
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> I didn't make myself clear.. The GEDCOM standard (and most genealogy 
> programs) allow you to add an aliaas. You're the one combining them all 
> into one with 'ou/or' which your genealogy program will not understand.
>
> In the case you mentioned (Ana Maria ou Ana Bernarda ou Ana de SIMAS ou 
> Ana PEREIRA de SIMAS), I'd list her with all these names, without the 'ou' 
> in the following way:
>
> 1 NAME Ana /de Simas/
> 1 NAME Ana /Pereira, de Simas/
> 2 TYPE aka
> 1 NAME Ana Maria
> 2 TYPE aka
> 1 NAME Ana Bernarda
> 2 TYPE aka
>
> That's assuming she used 'Ana de Simas' as her 'marriage' name or the one 
> she used most often for her children's baptisms.
>
> Regards,
>
> João C. Ventura 
>  
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person

[João Ventura]

Hi Doug,

I didn't make myself clear.. The GEDCOM standard (and most genealogy 
programs) allow you to add an aliaas. You're the one combining them all 
into one with 'ou/or' which your genealogy program will not understand.

In the case you mentioned (Ana Maria ou Ana Bernarda ou Ana de SIMAS ou Ana 
PEREIRA de SIMAS), I'd list her with all these names, without the 'ou' in 
the following way:

1 NAME Ana /de Simas/
1 NAME Ana /Pereira, de Simas/
2 TYPE aka
1 NAME Ana Maria
2 TYPE aka
1 NAME Ana Bernarda
2 TYPE aka

That's assuming she used 'Ana de Simas' as her 'marriage' name or the one 
she used most often for her children's baptisms.

Regards,

João C. Ventura

On Wednesday, November 13, 2013 11:04:32 AM UTC+1, Doug da Rocha Holmes 
wrote:
>
> Olá João,
>
> You make a good point about the length of the name and it certainly can 
> get long.
> And yes, printing it out might be a problem.
>
> My viewpoint is based on searches to see if I already have one particular 
> person in my database already.
> I believe I have already explained it before, but I'll try to be brief 
> here.
>
> If I have a couple named in a baptism such as Manuel de Sousa and Maria da 
> Conceição and I want see if I already have them in my database, I do a 
> search for a couple by these names. If found, and if they are from the 
> right place and time frame, I decide if they are the right couple found in 
> this baptism.
>
> If I don't find them, I might add them in as the parents of the child in 
> the baptism.
>
> So the problem is when the wife is using a different name. Like you said, 
> at marriage she might have used one name, her "marriage name" maybe 
> something like Maria Inácia do Coração de Jesus, but never again used that 
> Coração de Jesus ending. I liken that to what you seem to be calling her 
> marriage name. It's just a fancy way to show her devotion, or something, 
> but never really was her name (perhaps).
>
> If she was married with Maria de Jesus and I found her using Maria da 
> Conceição, I might end up having a duplicate couple - at least for a while 
> until I do more research and realize the mistake.
>
> So if I record her as Maria da Conceição ou Maria de Jesus (and make a 
> note for her that explains where each name was found in which record), when 
> I do my search for any couple named Manuel de Sousa and Maria da Conceição, 
> this couple shows up and I don't create a duplicate entry for them.
>
> I realize that this situation might never apply to someone who records 
> only direct ancestors and their immediate families. But for me, I am always 
> trying to find ways to make sure I have just one entry for a person.
>
> Out of curiosity, I did a real search for a couple by these names and I 
> have 14 of them. I have 1387 women named Maria de Jesus so far. So far I 
> have 393 named José Inácio. I have 75 named João Caetano. :-)
>
> I also notice that if a woman had a child out of wedlock, and the father 
> is listed as pai incógnito, the chances are pretty good that she is going 
> to be listed with a different version of her name if she ever ends up 
> getting married. So often the variation reflects a different time in her 
> life.
>
> Take a look at this lady and her name variations. She remained single:
>
> Ana Maria ou Ana Bernarda ou Ana de SIMAS ou Ana PEREIRA de SIMAS
>
> She was the godmother for many people over the years and so far I have 
> found four ways she was named.
> This is a little extraordinary, of course. Most of the time, there is 
> maybe just variation.
>
> If combined into one, I suppose someone might call her Ana Maria Bernarda 
> Pereira de Simas, even though that exact name was never found for her.
>
> There is no right or wrong way to record them. Just keep them organized in 
> whatever way works for each researcher.
>
> If someone were to record a couple as Manuel Bettencourt and Maria dos 
> Anjos and I record them as Manuel de Bettencourt and Maria dos Anjos, my 
> use of "de" for the husband is not going to throw anyone off.
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>   Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person
> From: João_Ventura >
> Date: Wed, November 13, 2013 1:04 am
> To: azo...@googlegroups.com 
> Cc: Edward Rodrigues >
>
> Hi Edward,
>
> I'm afraid to disagree with both Doug and Cheri, as their experience is a 
> lot better than mine..
>
> First of, it's a bit necessary to distinguish men from women here. Men's 
> names change very rarely. Women's names are more fluid.. I'm not even sure 
> there was a good concept of a female surname back in the 19th. century or 
> before. I usually consider that the most reliable names would be the one 
> they'd declare themselves during their wedding. At any other time, they're 
> either too young (baptism), or deceased (death) to be able to provide 
> correct information. Their children's 

Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person

[João Ventura]

Hi Edward,

I'm afraid to disagree with both Doug and Cheri, as their experience is a 
lot better than mine..

First of, it's a bit necessary to distinguish men from women here. Men's 
names change very rarely. Women's names are more fluid.. I'm not even sure 
there was a good concept of a female surname back in the 19th. century or 
before. I usually consider that the most reliable names would be the one 
they'd declare themselves during their wedding. At any other time, they're 
either too young (baptism), or deceased (death) to be able to provide 
correct information. Their children's birth record are usually accurate in 
the parent's names but this is also the time when women's 'surname-in-flux' 
can best be seen. Sometimes it's their wedding surname, other times it's 
her father's or her mother's surname that gets used.

However the part I disagree is using the 'or/ou'. Most genealogy programs 
will allow you to provide alternative versions of the name. Use your best 
judgement to choose a primary surname, but then list all the names you can 
find for them, like their married name or their 'americanized' name. Using 
the 'or/ou' will actually make their name a mess from a computer system 
point of view.

João C. Ventura

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 10:59:08 PM UTC+1, Doug da Rocha Holmes wrote:
>
> Hi Edward,
>
> I have mentioned it once or twice.
>
> Like Cheri says, I recommend using "or" between both name versions if they 
> immigrated.
>
> But if they never left Portugal, I suggest using the Portuguese word "ou" 
> - though it makes no real difference and if the people in your family are 
> language handicapped (don't know a word of Portuguese) then maybe just 
> stick with English.
>
> Having said that, are you certain Alexandrina is the same person as 
> Angelina? They are both Portuguese names and my first thought is that maybe 
> they are two different people.
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>   Original Message 
> Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person
> From: Edward Rodrigues >
> Date: Tue, November 12, 2013 12:05 pm
> To: "azo...@googlegroups.com " 
> 
> >
>
>
>   --
>  *From:* Edward Rodrigues >
> *To:* "azo...@googlegroups.com " 
> > 
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:01 PM
> *Subject:* different names same person
>  
> A few weeks back someone mentioned how they do not combine a names of a 
> person. They display both way the name is presented separate. I believe 
> they put something
> between the names. I am hoping someone could advise me the best way. 
> example
> Alexandrina Gaspar Pereira  
> Angelina Pereira Lopes
> before I just put Angelina Alexandrina Gaspar Lopes Pereira
> I thought I had saved the post but cannot find it now but would like to 
> start saving information that way to avoid confusion.
> Edward
>  
>  
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Francisco Joseph Pimentel from Lambda(?), Flores

[João Ventura]

Hi Mary.

Welcome to the list! Especially from the small(er) group of Flores 
researchers.

This is the page on early 1854 baptisms in Lomba, Lajes das Flores: 
http://www.culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/FLR-LF-LOMBA-B-1844-1874/FLR-LF-LOMBA-B-1844-1874_item1/P40.html

As you'll see there's three Francisco's there, but only the third is a 
Pimentel (the record uses the P.el abbreviation). However this one was born 
in March 1854. And the father is Manuel Pimentel Velho. From the looks of 
it, it's very likely your great-great-grandfather married in Providence RI 
sometime between 1890 and 1899. I'd suggest trying to find his US marriage 
record first, which might contain better information on his parent's names.

Normally I'd tell you to buy the Casais das Flores e do Corvo ebook (
http://www.amazon.com/Casais-Flores-Corvo-Portuguese-Edition-ebook/dp/B00AQAOOF6),
 
but in this case the Lomba marriage records only stretch to 1860, even 
though the Lomba parish was created around 1698. The previous books were 
lost in time. Even the birth records only go as far as 1844. Which means 
there's no way to find your great-great-great-grandfather marriage and 
birth records, unless they're from another parish. In the record above, the 
paternal grandfather is from the Lajes das Flores village, so he'd be 
easier to track (the Casais book lists his marriage on 1807.07.06).

But this is all hanging by too many flimsy threads. Francisco is a very 
common first name, and Pimentel is also a very common surname. You need 
better positive IDs of his parents to be able to pinpoint his birth record.

Regards,

João C. Ventura

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 2:37:00 AM UTC+1, Mary Pimentel Wheeler wrote:
>
> I'm new to this group, but happy to have found a community researching 
> roots in the Axores.  I'm researching my Pimentel lineage, but am stuck 2 
> generations back.  Any help members could give in terms of pointing me in 
> the right direction to do research beyond Ancestry.com would be greatly 
> appreciated.  My research is primarily from family stories and from what I 
> could find on Ancestry - but I'm always a bit suspicious of info from other 
> member's family trees. There is census data back as far as my Great 
> Grandfather - Frank Joseph Pimentel.  I would like to take this to the next 
> level and start resarching actual Azores records if possible, but don't 
> know where to start.  
>  
> Here's what I have:
> Grandfather - Frank (Francisco) Joseph Pimentel Jr - Born Sept 6, 1899 
> Providence RI.  Married to Louise (Luisa) Evangelho - Born July 4 or 5, 1900
> GGrandfather - Frank (Francisco) Joseph Pimentel, Born January 
> 1854 Lambda, Flores, Azores.  Married to Mary Ann Green (?)  - Born 1870 
> Providence RI
> GGGrandfather - possibly Jose Sebastio Pimentel. but I do not have other 
> information.  I'm presuming he was born in the Azores.  
>  
> Thank you!
>  
> Mary Pimentel Wheeler
>  
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Sao Pedro records online CCa

[João Ventura]

No.. They added the marriage records for S. Pedro in the last 30 hours..

On Thursday, November 7, 2013 2:00:16 AM UTC+1, Pam Santos wrote:
>
> It looks like they are only adding records on Monday and Tuesdays!!
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Jose A Medeiros 
> 
> > wrote:
>
>> I am waiting for S. Roque too
>>
>> On Friday, 25 October 2013 12:33:41 UTC-4, Pam Santos wrote:
>>
>>> So they have added Sao Pedro, Ponta Delgada online on CCA site.
>>>
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>
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: São Pedro, P. Delgada S. Miguel

[João Ventura]

Hi José,

Yes, and no.

They still keep records in churches nowadays. The difference is that before 
1911 the only records were the church records. After that the Civil 
Registry started working, and the official certificates are the 'birth 
certificate' and not the 'baptism record'.

In order for the Civil Registry to work however, a law was passed that all 
the church records before 1911 had to be transferred to the Civil Registry. 
The priests then started new records that you may still be able to find in 
the churches or in the Archive of the local Diocese.

João C. Ventura

On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 5:59:57 PM UTC+1, Jose A Medeiros wrote:
>
> 1911 the last year I believe they kept records in churchs 
>
> On Tuesday, 5 November 2013 04:36:29 UTC-5, João Ventura wrote:
>
>> And a few more today, I believe...
>>
>> On Monday, October 28, 2013 5:08:18 PM UTC+1, Jose A Medeiros wrote:
>>>
>>> More baptism years added today
>>>
>>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Exorcisms? of children in Ginetes documents

[João Ventura]

Hi John,

Yes, it's not a sin. But clearly the Church does believe that the devil 
might have been involved in the first baptism, and they need to exorcise it 
better. I guess it makes that makes the first one a satanic rite instead of 
a sin.

I understand the need for a second baptism, just to make sure. And I know 
that a rite of exorcism is part of baptism anyway. But clearly something is 
fishy about the need to state the exorcism explicitly. My theory about that 
is the one above - a need to affirm the power of the Church. Granted, it's 
my personal opinion, and I don't have time to research that deeper. I just 
find it funny from the records that they exorcise only on second baptisms. 
I'm assuming that the record reflects the rite and a stronger exorcise was 
performed on those babies.

João C. Ventura

On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 3:50:13 PM UTC+1, John Raposo wrote:
>
> The practice is the same today. It was never a sin (and still is not) for 
> a layman to baptize a child in case the child was at risk of dying before 
> baptism. Note many children "batizado pela partrira", or "a avó" (the 
> midwife or the grandmother). That is still the case today. However, the 
> baptism is then recorded in the church where the child would have been 
> baptized and and another baptism "sub condicione" is performed in case 
> there was anything invalid about the first baptism (like not using the 
> Trinitarian formula). In hospitals throughout the US, many Christian (not 
> necessarily Catholic) laymen, e.g. obstetricians, nurses, etc, baptize 
> babies who are born with a potentially life threatening conditions, with 
> the permission of the parent, of course.
>
> Thank you for the clarification.
>
> John 
>
>
>
>   On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 7:45 AM, João Ventura 
> > 
> wrote:
>  Hello, Terri (and John),
>
> My experience in seeing the baptism records is that the priest conducts an 
> exorcism when the children had already been baptized by a non-priest. In 
> some circumstances, people believed the baby would die without being 
> baptized so they'd baptize them themselves. However, since these people 
> were not priests, before the second baptism, the priest would perform a 
> symbolic exorcism.
>
> In the records above, if you look carefully, you'll notice the reference 
> to the prior 'lay' baptism, which motivated the need for the exorcism.
>
> In the early Christian church, any Christian could baptize another. But 
> the power of the church would be threatened if normal people started doing 
> these rites.. Indeed, between 1860 and 1910, Portugal kept passing laws to 
> create a Civil Register, so that the birth, marriage and death certificates 
> could be managed by the Government and not the Church. Always with little 
> results, until the Monarchy was abolished and the civil society took that 
> power from them. I guess the exorcism was done to show the people that they 
> had sinned in baptizing the baby, and that a real priest was needed.
>
> João C. Ventura
>
> On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 12:36:43 PM UTC+1, John Raposo wrote:
>
> As I understand it, it was and still is part of the Baptismal ceremony. 
> Baptism is the pouring of the water over the head baptizing "in the name of 
> the Father" etc. But before you get to the point, there is the 
> anointing with holy oils and the priest applying a grain or two of salt on 
> his thumb to the mouth of the baby. And then there is the rejection of 
> Satan, declared on the baby's behalf by the Godparents. Although I am not a 
> priest, I think the salt applied to the lips initiates a symbollic 
> expulsion of Satan from the newborn leaving him clean and open to receiving 
> Christ. Maybe there is a priest or religious on the list that can provide 
> clearer (and more accurate) information.
>
> John Miranda Raposo
>
>
>
>   On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 12:12 AM, Terri  wrote:
>  I found it creepy by interesting that in a few baptism records I needed 
> for children in Ginetes, the word  'exorcismos' appeared.  This does mean 
> exorcisms by a priest were performed right? or does this word have ANOTHER 
> meaning in Portuguese? I've attached two records below.
>  
> Terri Santos
> Researching Agua d'Alto, Agua de Pau, Ginetes, Vila Franca do Campo Sao 
> Pedro and Sao Miguel
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Exorcisms? of children in Ginetes documents

[João Ventura]

Hello, Terri (and John),

My experience in seeing the baptism records is that the priest conducts an 
exorcism when the children had already been baptized by a non-priest. In 
some circumstances, people believed the baby would die without being 
baptized so they'd baptize them themselves. However, since these people 
were not priests, before the second baptism, the priest would perform a 
symbolic exorcism.

In the records above, if you look carefully, you'll notice the reference to 
the prior 'lay' baptism, which motivated the need for the exorcism.

In the early Christian church, any Christian could baptize another. But the 
power of the church would be threatened if normal people started doing 
these rites.. Indeed, between 1860 and 1910, Portugal kept passing laws to 
create a Civil Register, so that the birth, marriage and death certificates 
could be managed by the Government and not the Church. Always with little 
results, until the Monarchy was abolished and the civil society took that 
power from them. I guess the exorcism was done to show the people that they 
had sinned in baptizing the baby, and that a real priest was needed.

João C. Ventura

On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 12:36:43 PM UTC+1, John Raposo wrote:
>
> As I understand it, it was and still is part of the Baptismal ceremony. 
> Baptism is the pouring of the water over the head baptizing "in the name of 
> the Father" etc. But before you get to the point, there is the 
> anointing with holy oils and the priest applying a grain or two of salt on 
> his thumb to the mouth of the baby. And then there is the rejection of 
> Satan, declared on the baby's behalf by the Godparents. Although I am not a 
> priest, I think the salt applied to the lips initiates a symbollic 
> expulsion of Satan from the newborn leaving him clean and open to receiving 
> Christ. Maybe there is a priest or religious on the list that can provide 
> clearer (and more accurate) information.
>
> John Miranda Raposo
>
>
>
>   On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 12:12 AM, Terri 
> > 
> wrote:
>  I found it creepy by interesting that in a few baptism records I needed 
> for children in Ginetes, the word  'exorcismos' appeared.  This does mean 
> exorcisms by a priest were performed right? or does this word have ANOTHER 
> meaning in Portuguese? I've attached two records below.
>  
> Terri Santos
> Researching Agua d'Alto, Agua de Pau, Ginetes, Vila Franca do Campo Sao 
> Pedro and Sao Miguel
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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: São Pedro, P. Delgada S. Miguel

[João Ventura]

And a few more today, I believe...

On Monday, October 28, 2013 5:08:18 PM UTC+1, Jose A Medeiros wrote:
>
> More baptism years added today
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy]

[João Ventura]

Hi all,

Then again, this is all mooted by the revelations in another thread that 
this is the wrong island...

It doesn't invalidate the fact that if she was raised by an aunt, then it 
would be possible to at least deduce some of her ancestors. But for that, 
it all starts with finding out who this aunt was.

João

On Friday, October 25, 2013 10:39:56 AM UTC+2, João Ventura wrote:
>
> Cheri,
>
> Sorry to correct you on this, but if she was raised by her aunt, her 
> parents can't be that unknown... 
>
> Anyway, the baptism for this Leonor states the following:
>
> Date of baptism: 15-11-1863
> Date of birth: 2-11-1863
> Name: Leonor
> Father: Manuel Silveira (Maneca?)
> Mother: Claudina Augusta
> Paternal grandparents: João Pacheco & Maria Josefa
> Maternal grandparents: Claudio Joaquim & Joaquina Claudina
> Godparents: Francisco José (Correa?) & Maria Josefa
>
> It does say that the parents are not married, which would make sense if 
> they later gave her to a relative to raise her. And that they are all 
> residents and baptized in São Sebastião.
>
> Linda, you need to find some data on this aunt of hers. What was her name? 
> Was she married? To who? Did she have children? When did she die? Without 
> that, even if this is the right Leonor you'll never be sure.
>
> Regards,
>
> João C. Ventura
>
> On Friday, October 25, 2013 12:09:39 AM UTC+2, Cheri Mello wrote:
>>
>> This record is not for a Leonor whose parents are unknown.  They state 
>> her parents, so it's the wrong one.
>> Listowner, Azores-Gen
>> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
>> Tainhas, Achada 
>>
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy]

[João Ventura]

Cheri,

Sorry to correct you on this, but if she was raised by her aunt, her 
parents can't be that unknown... 

Anyway, the baptism for this Leonor states the following:

Date of baptism: 15-11-1863
Date of birth: 2-11-1863
Name: Leonor
Father: Manuel Silveira (Maneca?)
Mother: Claudina Augusta
Paternal grandparents: João Pacheco & Maria Josefa
Maternal grandparents: Claudio Joaquim & Joaquina Claudina
Godparents: Francisco José (Correa?) & Maria Josefa

It does say that the parents are not married, which would make sense if 
they later gave her to a relative to raise her. And that they are all 
residents and baptized in São Sebastião.

Linda, you need to find some data on this aunt of hers. What was her name? 
Was she married? To who? Did she have children? When did she die? Without 
that, even if this is the right Leonor you'll never be sure.

Regards,

João C. Ventura

On Friday, October 25, 2013 12:09:39 AM UTC+2, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> This record is not for a Leonor whose parents are unknown.  They state her 
> parents, so it's the wrong one.
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada 
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Another translation from Ajuda Bretanha

[João Ventura]

Hi Cheri and Joanne

Yes, creating two families (two sets of parents) is also possible. But in 
this case, his biological parents are unknowns.. I don't think it's useful 
to create such a 1-person family. Depending on the program, you can set 
what type of relationship the parents have to the child, and marking this 
one as adopted should suffice to say that these aren't the biological ones..

I'd clearly add the Benevides as parents of Francisco, not simply as notes. 
These were for all purposes the only parents he knew. However, there's no 
denying that the DNA is from someone else..

João


On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:00:44 PM UTC+2, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> Joanne M,
>
> I haven't been following this thread closely.  I just noticed you are 
> talking about a biological versus an "adopted" type parentage.
>
> In my genealogy program, my cousin has 2 sets of parents:  biological and 
> adoptive.  My genealogy program allows for this.  And I really should say 
> it's not parents. It's just dad.  He has a  biological dad and the dad who 
> raised him and legally adopted him.
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada 
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Another translation from Ajuda Bretanha

[João Ventura]

Hi Joanne,

How do you enter that information into your tree? That will depend a lot on 
the program you use to manage it. This is clearly an adoption case, so 
there is clearly a family with a married couple and at least one 'son'. As 
to whether you trace back, or not depends a lot on you curiosity level. 
Clearly these are not his biological ancestors. But then again do you 
really believe that in the tree you currently have, the women were always 
faithful to their husbands? In my case, I'd stop here and pursue other 
leads.. This couple will probably descend from another relative of yours 
anyway.. These islands are tiny :)

João

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:27:25 PM UTC+2, Joanne wrote:
>
> Obrigado, Antonio! From what I already knew I figured that was the case. 
>  Now, how do I  1) I enter that information into my tree and 2) do I then 
> trace back Manuel &  Maria Joaquin de Benevides? Again, any help is greatly 
> appreciated.
> —
> Sent from Mailbox  for iPad
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 1:25 AM, Antonio Raposo 
> 
> > wrote:
>
>>  I Joanne,  Francisco da Camara was gives to Maria Joquina, wife of 
>> Manuel de Benevides for raising.
>>
>> Quarta-feira, 16 de Outubro de 2013 14:33:54 UTC-4, Joanne escreveu:
>>>
>>> Trying to break down the brick wall of my great grandfathers parentage. 
>>>  If someone can help me with this translation of a marriage I'd appreciate 
>>> it.  The groom is Francisco de Camara and the bride is Antonia Augusta de 
>>> Souza - wedding date is 20 Feb 1855 - the bride's parents match what I have 
>>> and I know that the groom's father was a pais incognito but I think I see a 
>>> mother listed as Maria Joquina, wife of Manuel de Benevides.  Could this be 
>>> the couple he was given to or his real mother who had a guy on the side? 
>>> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-AJUDABRETANHA-C-1837-1860/SMG-PD-AJUDABRETANHA-C-1837-1860_item1/P136.html
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>> *Joanne*
>>>*
>>> *
>>>  *Joanne Medeiros Grota Mercier*
>>> Researching Bretanha (Medeiros Grota, Benevides, deSouza), Lagoa (Luiz, 
>>> d'Oliveira Homem) and Rabo de Peixe (Martins Gouveia)
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Livramento Marriages 1833-1860 Missing Pages

[João Ventura]

Hi Lee,

Page 77 is there: 
http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-LIVRAMENTO-C-1834-1860/SMG-PD-LIVRAMENTO-C-1834-1860_item1/P83.html

Or am I missing something?

João C. Ventura

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 6:24:19 PM UTC+2, Lee wrote:
>
> While going through the marriages of Livramento 1833-1860 last nigh I 
> discovered that the following pages are missing:
>  
> 74, 75, 76, 77 and 78 and then picks up with page 79 again.
>  
> And with my ususal bad luck, it turns out the page I needed was page 77!
>  
> Just wanteed to make everyone aware of the missing pages.
>  
> Also, could it be possible that they were missed during the filming, etc.  
> These pages are just about in the middle of the book.
>  
> Lee E., WV
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Pre 1720 Feteira, Faial Marriage Records

[João Ventura]

Hello

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feteira_(Horta)), 
Feteira has been a parish since 1568.

According to the Azorean government archive catalog (
http://www.arquivos.azores.gov.pt/details?id=981249), there's no marriage 
books for Feteira prior to 1720. From these two facts, I'd deduce that they 
did marry in Feteira before 1720, but the books are no longer in existence. 
You'll have to resort to indirect sources for further research, such as 
priest processes or similar.

Regards,

João Ventura

On Tuesday, October 8, 2013 6:03:25 PM UTC+2, Shirley Allegre wrote:
>
>  I don't know.  Can anyone answer Fawn's question?
>  
> Shirley in CA
>
> - Original Message - 
> *From:* Fawn Silva  
> *To:* azo...@googlegroups.com  
> *Sent:* Monday, October 07, 2013 1:34 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Pre 1720 Feteira, Faial Marriage Records
>
>  Thank you, Shirley.  Since I sent the post I checked online to see what 
> the LDS films contain & it looks like they only go back to 1720 also.  
> Where did people go before that time???
>  
> Fawn
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Shirley Allegre 
> 
> > wrote:
>
>> ** 
>> Fawn:  I have the Feteira, Fails films.  I will see if I can find 
>> anything for you.
>>  
>> Shirley in CA
>>
>>  - Original Message - 
>> *From:* Fawn Silva  
>> *To:* azo...@googlegroups.com  
>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 06, 2013 7:25 PM
>> *Subject:* [AZORES-Genealogy] Pre 1720 Feteira, Faial Marriage Records
>>
>>  I am looking for a marriage record for Manuel Dutra Mendonca and 
>> Violante Do Rosario from Feteira, Faial. I checked the marriages on the CCA 
>> site from 1726 back to 1720 (their first child I have was probably born abt 
>> 1727) but they weren't there.  Unfortunately their records don't go back 
>> any further than that.  Are there previous Feteira records and the CCA 
>> doesn't have them up yet or did the people from Feteira go to another 
>> fregusia previous to 1720??
>>  
>> Thanks,
>> Fawn Silva
>> St. Louis, MO
>>
>> -- 
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: CCA site added Feterias and Ginetes records!

[João Ventura]

Indeed, they have.

They've also added Ribeirinha and Salão to Horta (Faial). That completes 
all the Horta parishes.. Maybe someone can compare the list with the LDS 
microfilm index, and see if there's anything still missing.

>From a personal point of view, I'm happy. My Azorean todo list was all in 
thes missing Faial records. I can now continue on that front..

João

On Monday, October 7, 2013 12:57:38 PM UTC+2, Pam Santos wrote:
>
> They have added more too. Livermento, and Mosteiros
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 2:25 AM, Pam Santos 
> > wrote:
>
>> Your welcome. hopefully they will be adding more soon.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:07 AM, > wrote:
>>
>>> There are a few incomplete freguesias for Faial still. Probably fill in 
>>> the gaps in the next few days.
>>>
>>> Doug da Rocha Holmes
>>> Sacramento, California
>>> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
>>> 916-550-1618
>>> www.dholmes.com
>>>
>>>
>>>   Original Message 
>>> Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: CCA site added Feterias and Ginetes
>>> records!
>>> From: João_Ventura >
>>> Date: Mon, October 07, 2013 1:01 am
>>> To: azo...@googlegroups.com 
>>>
>>> Well spotted!!
>>>
>>> I see Conceição, Feteira, Flamengos, Matriz da Horta, Pedro Miguel, 
>>> Praia do Almoxarife and Praia do Norte there also, all for Horta (Faial).
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot for this information!
>>>
>>> João C. Ventura 
>>>  
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>>
>>
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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: CCA site added Feterias and Ginetes records!

[João Ventura]

Well spotted!!

I see Conceição, Feteira, Flamengos, Matriz da Horta, Pedro Miguel, Praia 
do Almoxarife and Praia do Norte there also, all for Horta (Faial).

Thanks a lot for this information!

João C. Ventura

On Monday, October 7, 2013 8:26:24 AM UTC+2, Pam Santos wrote:
>
> The CCA site has added Feterias and Ginetes records.
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: FTDNA: Got Mozabite genes?

[João Ventura]

gt; usual bribe to the Barbary pirates, started the US Navy and put it to good 
> use in North Africa. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Wars
>
> There's a PhD thesis in Portuguese with a list of rescued captives: 
> http://repositorium.sdum.uminho.pt/handle/1822/13440. The lists of 
> captives rescued start at page 432, and besides the name of the person 
> rescued, it also indicates their origin, age, and the numbers of years they 
> were captive.
>
> Regards,
>
> João Ventura
>
> On Monday, September 30, 2013 10:19:32 PM UTC+2, nancy jean baptiste wrote:
>
> What are the years that most of this occurred and which islands were 
> most raided?
>  
> Nancy Jean
>  
> --
> From: pi...@dholmes.com
> To: azo...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: FTDNA: Got Mozabite genes?
> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 11:00:02 -0700
>
> No doubt about that. A certain percentage of the expostos and single 
> mother's having kids must be from that circumstance.
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>   Original Message 
> Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: FTDNA: Got Mozabite genes?
> From: João_Ventura 
> Date: Mon, September 30, 2013 10:53 am
> To: azo...@googlegroups.com
>
> Or in a very unpleasant aspect of it, maybe one of his ancestors was raped 
> by one of the Barbary Pirates that paid regular visits to the Azores.
>
> João Carlos Ventura
>
> On Monday, September 30, 2013 3:08:30 PM UTC+2, Eileen Leite wrote:
>
> This dna testing is very interesting! My husband shows Mozabite genetic 
> markers. North African dessert people. We assume it entered his line during 
> the Moorish conquest of the Iberian Peninsula, but are open to other ideas. 
>  
> Our children think this has a really high ‘cool’ factor, haha. 
>  
> We are wondering how common this is in the group, I’d guess pretty high? 
>  
> Eileen Leite 
>
>  
> -- 
> For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail 
> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at 
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> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my 
> membership."
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>  
>
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: FTDNA: Got Mozabite genes?

[João Ventura]

Nancy,

I'd believe all islands were raided quite often. Even mainland Portugal was 
raided occasionally. I'd guess Flores and Corvo were more commonly raided, 
as they were more isolated and harder to defend. From a Shipwrecking book 
published by  Francisco Gomes,I see that Flores and Corvo were attacked by 
pirates in 1536, 1537, 1549, 1567, 1587, 1590, 1592, 1609, 1616, 1632, 
1635, 1644, 1654, 1719, 1770, 1818. Probably more, I wasn't reading all the 
entries. The one in 1719 was especially bad. They captured at least 3 of my 
wife's ancestors. Piracy was tolerated by every nation until about 1800. At 
that time, the US Congress decided not to pay the usual bribe to the 
Barbary pirates, started the US Navy and put it to good use in North 
Africa. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Wars

There's a PhD thesis in Portuguese with a list of rescued captives: 
http://repositorium.sdum.uminho.pt/handle/1822/13440. The lists of captives 
rescued start at page 432, and besides the name of the person rescued, it 
also indicates their origin, age, and the numbers of years they were 
captive.

Regards,

João Ventura

On Monday, September 30, 2013 10:19:32 PM UTC+2, nancy jean baptiste wrote:
>
> What are the years that most of this occurred and which islands were 
> most raided?
>  
> Nancy Jean
>  
> --
> From: pi...@dholmes.com 
> To: azo...@googlegroups.com 
> Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: FTDNA: Got Mozabite genes?
> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 11:00:02 -0700
>
> No doubt about that. A certain percentage of the expostos and single 
> mother's having kids must be from that circumstance.
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>   Original Message 
> Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: FTDNA: Got Mozabite genes?
> From: João_Ventura >
> Date: Mon, September 30, 2013 10:53 am
> To: azo...@googlegroups.com 
>
> Or in a very unpleasant aspect of it, maybe one of his ancestors was raped 
> by one of the Barbary Pirates that paid regular visits to the Azores.
>
> João Carlos Ventura
>
> On Monday, September 30, 2013 3:08:30 PM UTC+2, Eileen Leite wrote:
>
> This dna testing is very interesting! My husband shows Mozabite genetic 
> markers. North African dessert people. We assume it entered his line during 
> the Moorish conquest of the Iberian Peninsula, but are open to other ideas. 
>  
> Our children think this has a really high ‘cool’ factor, haha. 
>  
> We are wondering how common this is in the group, I’d guess pretty high? 
>  
> Eileen Leite 
>
>  
> -- 
> For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail 
> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at 
> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the 
> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my 
> membership."
> --- 
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> .
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>  

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: FTDNA: Got Mozabite genes?

[João Ventura]

Or in a very unpleasant aspect of it, maybe one of his ancestors was raped 
by one of the Barbary Pirates that paid regular visits to the Azores.

João Carlos Ventura

On Monday, September 30, 2013 3:08:30 PM UTC+2, Eileen Leite wrote:
>
> This dna testing is very interesting! My husband shows Mozabite genetic 
> markers. North African dessert people. We assume it entered his line during 
> the Moorish conquest of the Iberian Peninsula, but are open to other ideas. 
>
>  
>
> Our children think this has a really high ‘cool’ factor, haha. 
>
>  
>
> We are wondering how common this is in the group, I’d guess pretty high? 
>
>  
>
> Eileen Leite
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Family Tree DNA will give you a $10 off if you upload your Gedcom

[João Ventura]

Manoel,

Actually, you can fix it from your side before uploading it to FTDNA.. My 
GEDCOM has the proper '~' above my name. Same with 'António', etc.

I don't remember exactly, but I believe I opened it in Notepad++ and 
converted it to UTF-8 before uploading it. Check if your program can export 
to UTF-8 format.

João Ventura

On Friday, September 27, 2013 1:48:53 AM UTC+2, mances wrote:
>
> Cheri,
>
> I just uploaded my gedcom to FF but their website still has that old 
> problem with the portuguese diacritical marks.
>
> I wrote to the FTDna hoping they can fix it.
>
> Manoel
>
>
> Em quinta-feira, 26 de setembro de 2013 02h20min22s UTC-3, Cheri Mello 
> escreveu:
>>
>> For those who have tested with Family Tree DNA and not yet uploaded their 
>> Gedcom, FTDNA will give you a $10 off coupon towards the purchase of a 
>> future test (or upgrade) if you upload your Gedcom.  They must have heard 
>> us admins complain about the lack of Gedcoms, so they have resorted to 
>> bribery!  LOL
>>
>> Please upload your Gedcom if you have not done so!
>>
>> -- 
>> Cheri Mello
>> Listowner, Azores-Gen
>> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
>> Tainhas, Achada 
>>
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Criminal record from Flores- need help translating

[João Ventura]

Photo 1:

José Lourenço de Freitas, solteiro, digo casado, proprietário natural e 
morador na freguesia de Ponta Delgada nesta ilha das Flores, filho de 
António Caetano Lourenço e de Maria Lourenço de Jesus para fins (??) 
requisita o ? Escrivão encarregado do registo Criminal d'esta comarca lhe 
certifique junto a este o que no respectivo boletim consta com respeito ao 
??.

(José Lourenço de Freitas, single, I mean married, land-owner, natural and 
resident in the parish of Ponta Delgada on the island of Flores, son of 
António Caetano Lawrence and María Lourenço de Jesus for the purpose of (?) 
requests that  ? clerk in charge of the Criminal Records of this region 
certify next to this what is recorded in the respective bulletin in regards 
to ??.)

Photo 2:
Registo Criminal da comarca das Flores

Atesto que dos boletins arquivados neste registo nada consta contra o 
requerente José Lourenço de Freitas, casado, proprietário natural e morador 
na freguesia de Ponta Delgada d'esta ilha, filho de António Caetano 
Lourenço e de Maria Lourenço de Jesus.

Santa Cruz das Flores, 30 de Agosto de 1900

(Criminal Registry the county of Flores

I certify that the archived bulletins in this registry nothing is contained 
against the applicant José Lourenço de Freitas, married, a native and 
resident owner in the parish of Ponta Delgada d'this island, António 
Caetano son of Lourenço and María Lawrence of Jesus.

Santa Cruz das Flores, August 30, 1900)

On Thursday, September 19, 2013 1:39:35 AM UTC+2, sdarosa wrote:
>
> Hi everyone, can someone help me translate this document from the criminal 
> registry of Flores? What I get from it is Jose Lourencio de Freitas, 
> single, I mean married . Parish of de ponta delgada, island of Flores, 
> son of Antonia Caetono Lourencio and maria laurencia de Jesus.. Then I 
> get lost 
>
> Thanks for your help! 
> Suzanne da Rosa 
>
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] 15 Seniors Free 1 week trip to mainland Portugal if you have not been there in past 20 years

[João Ventura]

Hi all,

>From what I read, you must be a Portuguese citizen, over 65 that hasn't 
visited Portugal in over 20 years. Plus you must prove that you require 
this assistance because your financial situation doesn't allow you to pay 
for this trip on your own.

João C. Ventura

On Tuesday, September 10, 2013 4:22:56 AM UTC+2, Pam Santos wrote:
>
> Did it say people who were from United States?
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 7:09 PM, Sam Koester 
> > wrote:
>
>> Terrific, if only I were a Portuguese citizen...
>>
>> BTW;  Should anyone wish to contact me directly, my new email is:  
>> apor...@yahoo.com We have sold our California home and 
>> are wondering the U.S. for the next few months.  Currently, exploring the 
>> Vancouver, WA area.  Beautiful!
>>
>>   --
>>  *From:* "E" Sharp" >
>> *To:* azores > 
>> *Sent:* Monday, September 9, 2013 11:34 AM
>> *Subject:* [AZORES-Genealogy] 15 Seniors Free 1 week trip to mainland 
>> Portugal if you have not been there in past 20 years
>>  
>> Unfortunately for me, I cannot apply as I have been there quite a few 
>> times in the past years but hope some other listmember(s) 65+ can be one of 
>> the lucky 15.
>>  
>>
>> http://portuguese-american-journal.com/travel-the-2013-portugal-no-coracao-edition-is-open-for-seniors-portugal/
>>  
>>  
>> "E"
>> -- 
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>>
>>
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>
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Azores Pyramid Puzzle - Inhabited Earlier Than Thought.

[João Ventura]

Nancy,

These megalithic caves and rock art research are the work of the same 
person as these pyramids. Also he already found a 'significant number of 
fourth century BC Carthaginian temples!". This guy is seriously amazing. I 
wonder why no one else verifies his theories. I'm sure the Azorean tourism 
would be interested.

Note that he found rock art, but the only picture is him lying down in the 
mud in a (very moist) cave. Where's this alleged art? And honestly, truly 
amazing rock artists. The walls in my wife's family homes in the Azores can 
barely last a couple of years without being renovated because of all the 
moisture in the air, and these people found a way to paint that lasts 
thousands of years? Nuno Ribeiro could make a fortune in moisture-resistant 
paints if he could only isolate the chemicals used.

Something smells fishy about this Nuno Ribeiro and 'his' APIA association.

João Ventura

On Monday, September 9, 2013 7:43:58 PM UTC+2, nancy jean baptiste wrote:
>
> Well just to mention another interesting new "discovery" google 
> "megalithic cave and rock art on Terceira Island".
>  
> Nancy Jean
>  
> --
> Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2013 10:00:27 -0700
> From: ro...@lightspeed.net 
> To: azo...@googlegroups.com 
> Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Azores Pyramid Puzzle - Inhabited 
> Earlier Than Thought.
>
> I'm not weighing in on whether this is fact or fiction but do know that 
> scientists can date a structure.  Joao's thoughts seem correct in the fact 
> that we do not want to know the age of the rocks, that would only tell us 
> age of the rock and not the structure.  But scientists can date the age of 
> a structure by deposits and weathering of its building materials and 
> through time this area of science continues to improve.If these 
> structure have not undergone this type of testing maybe scientists are 
> waiting for improved testing procedures to be developed. D
>
> -Original Message- 
> From: Tish M 
> Sent: Sep 9, 2013 9:39 AM 
> To: "azo...@googlegroups.com " 
> Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Azores Pyramid Puzzle - Inhabited 
> Earlier Than Thought. 
>
> Hi João,
>
> Very well put. This will go into my Reference box where I store very well 
> written emails.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Tish
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 2:47 AM, João Ventura 
> > wrote:
>
> Hi Cindy.
>
> Addressing your points, and why I think this pseudo-science pyramids 
> doesn't hold.
>
> Regarding continental drift, there is nothing to say.. The Azores are 
> located on top of the rift between the North American, Eurasian and the 
> African plates. There's no drift involved here. The rift is where the 
> mantle is moving apart, and because of that, the mantle is thinner at that 
> point, with lots of magma chimneys almost up to the surface. From time to 
> time, one of those has enough pressure to release the magma into the 
> surface, in the form of volcanoes that when dormant look like peaceful 
> beautiful green islands. The geological time scales here are not compatible 
> with continental drift being a factor. If you study the DNA evidence, 
> you'll see that mankind started in Africa, moved into Europe and Asia, and 
> only moved into North America (and then South) during a time when it was 
> possible to walk from Siberia to Alaska (search for Aleutian land bridge). 
> That's measured in tens of thousands of years. Continental drift is 
> measured in much wider timescales (millions of years).
>
> As to early discoverers, you have two options:
> 1. Early discoverers, that find the place based on pure chance, and then 
> leave, never coming back. There's evidence that such processes occurred 
> with Europeans in North America at different points in time (Vikings, 
> Portuguese and others). Granted, these are nice footnotes, but amount to 
> nothing. They didn't populate the land, so the same land is up to be 
> re-discovered by others. The same process may have happened to the Azores, 
> as proven by their appearance in maps in the 1300s. 
> 2. Settlement efforts based on know-how on getting there. For something 
> like this, the discoverers have to go prepared, taking with them some 
> supplies for the trip and early settlement, and most important men AND 
> women :) To get to the Azores you need to have either repeatable random 
> luck or the ability to know your location when sailing far from land. 
> Ruling out the first one (which apparently enabled the Polinesians to 
> settle Hawaii), you're left with having to wait for Prince Henry to found 
> his sailing school in Sagres. Also, the Atlantic is not the Pacific. 
&

[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Azores Pyramid Puzzle - Inhabited Earlier Than Thought.

[João Ventura]

Hi Cindy.

Addressing your points, and why I think this pseudo-science pyramids 
doesn't hold.

Regarding continental drift, there is nothing to say.. The Azores are 
located on top of the rift between the North American, Eurasian and the 
African plates. There's no drift involved here. The rift is where the 
mantle is moving apart, and because of that, the mantle is thinner at that 
point, with lots of magma chimneys almost up to the surface. From time to 
time, one of those has enough pressure to release the magma into the 
surface, in the form of volcanoes that when dormant look like peaceful 
beautiful green islands. The geological time scales here are not compatible 
with continental drift being a factor. If you study the DNA evidence, 
you'll see that mankind started in Africa, moved into Europe and Asia, and 
only moved into North America (and then South) during a time when it was 
possible to walk from Siberia to Alaska (search for Aleutian land bridge). 
That's measured in tens of thousands of years. Continental drift is 
measured in much wider timescales (millions of years).

As to early discoverers, you have two options:
1. Early discoverers, that find the place based on pure chance, and then 
leave, never coming back. There's evidence that such processes occurred 
with Europeans in North America at different points in time (Vikings, 
Portuguese and others). Granted, these are nice footnotes, but amount to 
nothing. They didn't populate the land, so the same land is up to be 
re-discovered by others. The same process may have happened to the Azores, 
as proven by their appearance in maps in the 1300s. 
2. Settlement efforts based on know-how on getting there. For something 
like this, the discoverers have to go prepared, taking with them some 
supplies for the trip and early settlement, and most important men AND 
women :) To get to the Azores you need to have either repeatable random 
luck or the ability to know your location when sailing far from land. 
Ruling out the first one (which apparently enabled the Polinesians to 
settle Hawaii), you're left with having to wait for Prince Henry to found 
his sailing school in Sagres. Also, the Atlantic is not the Pacific. 
there's a reason for the latter's name.

A place like the Azores, once settled would remain settled. You have lots 
of fresh water, fertile earth, trees to build shelter and fishing boats. 
It's undisputed from the recorded history that the Azores islands were not 
populated at the time of their discovery by the Portuguese in the 1400s. 
Even if they were discovered before, those people didn't stay, they either 
turned back or went on and were lost somewhere else. The Canary islands, 
which can be seen while still seeing the African coast were settled before 
this time. Madeira and the Azores require more advanced sailing techniques 
and remained uninhabited until their settlement by the Portuguese. Note 
that apart from some references in 14th century (early 1300s maps), there's 
no evidence at all in the ground that those places were settled before. 
Even discounting that anything useful left would have been cleared by later 
settlement efforts, there's no trace of any Phoenician, Greek or Roman 
presence there. It seems idiotic to you, but you need to explain why the 
island wasn't inhabited by 1000s of native Azoreans on the arrival of the 
Portuguese and why they had to recruit settlers from mainland Portugal to 
colonize the Azores. You have a choice between two puzzles: why no one 
settled them (easy to explain) or why did all the pre-1400 settlers build 
only a couple of pyramids and then vanished without a single trace. The 
last scenario is so complex to explain that the simple explanation is that 
it never existed in the first place.

I'm fairly certain that these pyramids were investigated by the UNESCO 
scientists that declared them to be World Heritage monuments, and their 
association with the wine culture is well known. Those pyramids were built 
to protect the wine culture which was started by the early settlers. 
Unfortunately, these pyramids are made of volcanic rock.. The carbon-14 
dating would only tell from which volcano eruption they originated from. 
The good thing is that wine is the sort of stuff you grow only when you've 
already taken care of a lot of other needs, and you moved from survival to 
civilized mode.

Unfortunately, certain people see a pyramid, and they immediately start 
thinking of ancient cultures and aliens, deeper meanings and conspiracy 
theories. The only problem is when they call themselves scientists and 
manage to get their crazy ideas published in normal newspapers. If you're 
waiting for further evidence on this case, you'll probably find them all 
coming from this one source. They probably started by searching for 
Atlantis and now stumbled on this crazy hypothesis. I'd say their next step 
is to claim that these pyramids are proof that Atlantis was in the Azores, 
because if the

[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Trying to encourage CCA to post on-line records for Vila Franca

[João Ventura]

Hi Marcia

You skipped over the part where he mentions that the Horta parishes which 
will probably be made available at the same time as the rest of the Ponta 
Delgada parishes. 

They do tend to follow the alphabetical order, so for Vila Franca the 
question is if you feel lucky..

Regards,

João C. Ventura

On Wednesday, September 4, 2013 2:43:13 PM UTC+2, Marcia wrote:
>
> I decided it was worth a shot to send at email to the CCA in the hopes of 
> encouraging them to get the VFC records on-line.   Following is my email 
> and the response that I received.   If I understand  correctly I am being 
> told that the priorities are Ponta Delgada, then Graciosa, and finally the 
> rest of the concelhos on San Miguel.  Is that correct?   The author is also 
> offering to help with further research if I provide names, etc.  Is that 
> correct?   My Portuguese is not very good, so appreciate any help and 
> reaction you care to make.  If there's any follow-up that you would suggest 
> I make in order to further my desire to see those VFC records be made 
> available, please let me know.   We know that those records are available 
> on a computer at the Archivo, so it makes no sense to me that they can't 
> easily be made available through the CCA.   
>
> Regards - Marcia Andre
>
> Ex.ma Senhora
> Márcia André
>
> Na sequência do pedido sobre pesquisas genealógicas de Vila Franca do 
> Campo, ilha de São Miguel, o qual nos mereceu a melhor atenção, informamos 
> que a Direção Regional da Cultura através do Centro de Conhecimento dos 
> Açores está em processo de disponibilização online dos registos paroquiais 
> das freguesias do concelho de Ponta Delgada e concelho da Horta, 
> seguindo-se a ilha Graciosa e restantes concelhos da ilha de São Miguel.
>
> Caso V. Exa. tenha celeridade nalguma registo, indique-nos os dados 
> necessários para a pesquisa (nomes, freguesias, datas).
>
> Cordiais saudações
>
> Rui Marques
> Técnico Superior
>  
> SECRETARIA REGIONAL DA EDUCAÇÃO, CIÊNCIA E CULTURA
> DIREÇÃO REGIONAL DA CULTURA
> Centro de Conhecimento dos Açores
> Palacete Silveira e Paulo - Rua da Conceição
> 9700-054 Angra do Heroísmo - Terceira - Açores
> 9 +351 295 403000 /  +351 295 403001
> http://www.azores.gov.pt/Portal/pt/entidades/pgra-drcultura
>
>
> http://www.culturacores.azores.gov.pt/
>
> -Mensagem original-
> De: Marcia Andre 
> 
> ]
> Enviada: domingo, 18 de Agosto de 2013 21:29
> Para: S650-CCA
> Assunto: Vila Franca do Campo records
>
>
> When do you expect to have the records for Vila Franca do Campo on the 
> island of San Miguel available?
>
> Thank you - Marcia Andre
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Book "Marriages of Cedros, Faial, Acores, etc." by L.P. Silva

[João Ventura]

Hi Bill,

The Salão database (also by Helder Oliveira) is here: 
http://www.ghp.ics.uminho.pt/geneweb/gwd.exe?b=SALAO;lang=en

And before you start asking for all of the parishes in Faial, here's all 
the parishes indexed by that research group in Univ. Minho (ex-NEPS): 
http://www.ghp.ics.uminho.pt/genealogias.html

The problem is that with those databases and the online records, it 
(almost) spoils the fun of paging through hundreds of years of records. 
You'll have to wait a while for the 'Salão' records to be online, though.

Regards,

João

On Monday, September 2, 2013 9:19:29 PM UTC+2, fia...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> Very good, Joao.  I figured out the language issue and have started 
> searching.  By chance, do you a reference to the listing for Salao?  My 
> family transitioned from Cedros to Salao in the late 1700s.  I have my 
> grandfather's birth certificate but I'm having trouble pinning dow the 
> birth and marriage of his parents.  
>
>  
>
> All the best,
>
> Bill
>
>  --
>
> *From: *"João Ventura" >
> *To: *azo...@googlegroups.com 
> *Sent: *Monday, September 2, 2013 1:01:08 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Book "Marriages of Cedros, Faial, 
> Acores, etc." by L.P. Silva
>
> Hi Bill, 
>
> Sorry for posting the link to the Portuguese version. There was a 'You can 
> select another displaying language among the following ones' text with lots 
> of different flags allowing you to change the language at top. But you can 
> also use the following, which will take you straight to the English version:
>
> http://www.ghp.ics.uminho.pt/geneweb/gwd.exe?b=CEDROS;lang=en
>
> Regards,
>
> João
>
> On Sunday, September 1, 2013 10:01:17 PM UTC+2, DiG wrote: 
>>
>>  Bill,
>>
>>  
>>
>> We met at the L-AGS meeting last month. I have a number of ancestors who 
>> were born in or lived in Cedros in the 17th and 18th century. Many 
>> migrated to Feteira from Cedros in the late 1600’s and early 1700’s. If you 
>> have a list of names, I can check to see if any match and send you what I 
>> have from the NEPS database. I even have some Fialhos—Bartolomeu Luis, 
>> Belchior and Maria, my 9h great grandfather, my 8th great grand uncle 
>> and my 11th great grandmother (on two sides of the family). Both of my 
>> maternal grandparents were descendants of Maria. 
>>
>>  
>>
>> Diane George (Silva)
>>
>>  
>>  
>> *From:* azo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:azo...@googlegroups.com] *On 
>> Behalf Of *fia...@comcast.net
>> *Sent:* Sunday, September 01, 2013 10:20 AM
>> *To:* azo...@googlegroups.com; azo...@googlegroups.com
>> *Cc:* William Silver; William Silver
>> *Subject:* Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Book "Marriages of Cedros, Faial, 
>> Acores, etc." by L.P. Silva
>>
>>  
>>  
>> I live in Livermore near the Alden Lane Nursery, if that helps pinpoint 
>> me.  I'd be interested to know what you have.  
>>
>>  
>>
>> Bill Silver
>>  --
>>  
>> *From: *"Liz Migliori" 
>> *To: *azo...@googlegroups.com
>> *Sent: *Sunday, September 1, 2013 9:45:47 AM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Book "Marriages of Cedros, Faial, 
>> Acores, etc." by L.P. Silva
>>  
>> Where in northern ca do u live.  I might have the info u r seeking
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>  
>>
>> On Aug 31, 2013, at 8:43 AM, fia...@comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>   I am looking for information about the book "Marriages of Cedros, 
>> Faial, Acores, Parish of Santa Barbara 1628-1891" by Lionel P. Silva.  My 
>> searches so far have identified one copy in the research library of the 
>> Univ of Mass but they don't distribute it as a loaner.  I live in northern 
>> California and the trip would be a bit much for this old guy.  Does anyone 
>> know of other copies that I might access?  My father's family lived in the 
>> Salao/Cedros area during the 18th and 19th centuries, maybe even in the 
>> 17th.  All suggestions would be much appreciated.
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> Bill Silver (Fialho)
>>
>> -- 
>> For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail 
>> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at 
>> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the 
>> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my 
>> membership."
>> --- 
>> You received this message because you are sub

Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Book "Marriages of Cedros, Faial, Acores, etc." by L.P. Silva

[João Ventura]

Hi Bill,

Sorry for posting the link to the Portuguese version. There was a 'You can 
select another displaying language among the following ones' text with lots 
of different flags allowing you to change the language at top. But you can 
also use the following, which will take you straight to the English version:

http://www.ghp.ics.uminho.pt/geneweb/gwd.exe?b=CEDROS;lang=en

Regards,

João

On Sunday, September 1, 2013 10:01:17 PM UTC+2, DiG wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
>  
>
> We met at the L-AGS meeting last month. I have a number of ancestors who 
> were born in or lived in Cedros in the 17th and 18th century. Many 
> migrated to Feteira from Cedros in the late 1600’s and early 1700’s. If you 
> have a list of names, I can check to see if any match and send you what I 
> have from the NEPS database. I even have some Fialhos—Bartolomeu Luis, 
> Belchior and Maria, my 9h great grandfather, my 8th great grand uncle and 
> my 11th great grandmother (on two sides of the family). Both of my 
> maternal grandparents were descendants of Maria. 
>
>  
>
> Diane George (Silva)
>
>  
>
> *From:* azo...@googlegroups.com  [mailto:
> azo...@googlegroups.com ] *On Behalf Of 
> *fia...@comcast.net
> *Sent:* Sunday, September 01, 2013 10:20 AM
> *To:* azo...@googlegroups.com ; 
> azo...@googlegroups.com
> *Cc:* William Silver; William Silver
> *Subject:* Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Book "Marriages of Cedros, Faial, 
> Acores, etc." by L.P. Silva
>
>  
>
> I live in Livermore near the Alden Lane Nursery, if that helps pinpoint 
> me.  I'd be interested to know what you have.  
>
>  
>
> Bill Silver
> --
>
> *From: *"Liz Migliori" >
> *To: *azo...@googlegroups.com 
> *Sent: *Sunday, September 1, 2013 9:45:47 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Book "Marriages of Cedros, Faial, 
> Acores, etc." by L.P. Silva
>
> Where in northern ca do u live.  I might have the info u r seeking
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Aug 31, 2013, at 8:43 AM, fia...@comcast.net  wrote:
>
> I am looking for information about the book "Marriages of Cedros, Faial, 
> Acores, Parish of Santa Barbara 1628-1891" by Lionel P. Silva.  My searches 
> so far have identified one copy in the research library of the Univ of Mass 
> but they don't distribute it as a loaner.  I live in northern California 
> and the trip would be a bit much for this old guy.  Does anyone know of 
> other copies that I might access?  My father's family lived in the 
> Salao/Cedros area during the 18th and 19th centuries, maybe even in the 
> 17th.  All suggestions would be much appreciated.
>
>  
>
> Bill Silver (Fialho)
>
> -- 
> For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail 
> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at 
> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the 
> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my 
> membership."
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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Book "Marriages of Cedros, Faial, Acores, etc." by L.P. Silva

[João Ventura]

Hi Bill,

Do you know that the entire parish of Cedors has an index that's available 
online: http://www.ghp.ics.uminho.pt/geneweb/gwd.exe?b=CEDROS;lang=pt

Between that and the online records in the CCA, there might not be much to 
gain from consulting that book. Although the researchers are different, so 
they might differ somewhat. The Cedros database was compiled by Hélder 
Oliveira.

João C. Ventura

On Saturday, August 31, 2013 5:43:18 PM UTC+2, fia...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> I am looking for information about the book "Marriages of Cedros, Faial, 
> Acores, Parish of Santa Barbara 1628-1891" by Lionel P. Silva.  My searches 
> so far have identified one copy in the research library of the Univ of Mass 
> but they don't distribute it as a loaner.  I live in northern California 
> and the trip would be a bit much for this old guy.  Does anyone know of 
> other copies that I might access?  My father's family lived in the 
> Salao/Cedros area during the 18th and 19th centuries, maybe even in the 
> 17th.  All suggestions would be much appreciated.
>  
> Bill Silver (Fialho)
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] death in Niteroi, Brasil

[João Ventura]

Hi Doug,

Funny. No. Like most modern (well, younger than 150) Portuguese, I have 4 
names. I never use my maternal surname. That 'C' stands for Carlos, and I'd 
really hate to start having to use a João CN Ventura sig just to avoid 
confusion.

And another factor that might have been left behind an older post. I'm not 
personally a descendant of any Azorean. But my kids are :) That's why 
you'll probably never get me as a match in FTDNA.

My Ventura surname originates from a small village called Olalhas in Tomar 
(Santarém). I traced it to the mid 1700s, and I hit the 'no-more-records' 
wall. 'Ventura' means good-fortune, so it's possible that there's no real 
common lineage between me and the many Azorean Venturas. I'd hate to be 
related to former MN Gov. Jesse Ventura*

João C. Ventura

* Yes, I know it was a stage name.

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 10:33:50 AM UTC+2, Doug da Rocha Holmes wrote:
>
> Thanks for the clarifications, Joao, especially for the one year thing. 
> That makes sense.
>
> Is the C in your middle name for Cardoso, by chance? If so, that would be 
> a coincidence because the other Joao Ventura descends from a Cardoso 
> Ventura line from Sao Roque do Pico that moved to Terceira in the late 
> 1700s.
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>   Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] death in Niteroi, Brasil
> From: João_Ventura >
> Date: Wed, August 28, 2013 12:25 am
> To: azo...@googlegroups.com  
>
> Doug, your translation is more or less right. However it becomes somewhat 
> worse at the end.. It goes something like this:
>
> He set a deadline of one year for the rendering of accounts (by which time 
> the proceeds of the sales of his goods and whatever debts paid and received 
> would be forwarded to his son).
> He declared to own two carts, and water barrels (the 'pipes'), and three 
> beasts (of burden - probably oxen or mules), that trade in the Cattete 
> neighbouhood (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catete_(Rio_de_Janeiro)), 
> and some clothes.
> His burial and 'suffrage' (no idea as well) shall be carried out as by the 
> will of the executor.
>
> João C. Ventura 
>  
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] death in Niteroi, Brasil

[João Ventura]

Hi all,

Yes, these are what we call 'false friends' words that look alike, but have 
completely different meanings.. One of the best ones is 
constipation/constipação, in Portuguese it simply means 'cold (sickness)', 
in English you know what it means :). Best one is in Spanish though - 
 embarazada (pregnant) vs embarassed/embaraçada (meaning in English and 
Porruguese is similar). I've heard a couple of people trying to speak 
Spanish (we call it Portuñol) and trying to declare themselves ashamed of 
something (like arriving late), they actually seem to announce their 
pregnancy. It takes some practiced Spaniards to not erupt in celebration.

Doug, your translation is more or less right. However it becomes somewhat 
worse at the end.. It goes something like this:

He set a deadline of one year for the rendering of accounts (by which time 
the proceeds of the sales of his goods and whatever debts paid and received 
would be forwarded to his son).
He declared to own two carts, and water barrels (the 'pipes'), and three 
beasts (of burden - probably oxen or mules), that trade in the Cattete 
neighbouhood (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catete_(Rio_de_Janeiro)), 
and some clothes.
His burial and 'suffrage' (no idea as well) shall be carried out as by the 
will of the executor.

João C. Ventura

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 2:34:12 AM UTC+2, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> Here, in California, we can have bottled water (in a 5 gallons jug - or 
> about 19 liters) that we place into a water dispenser.  One of the 
> companies that delivers this water is Sparkletts.  So the guy was the 
> Sparkletts man!
>
> No wonder Eliseu is laughing so hard at us Americans!  :-)
>
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada 
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Listing childless marriages?

[João Ventura]

Tomás,

The approach here is what you want to do with your records.. Do you want a 
simple listing of births, marriages and deaths? Or do you want to tell that 
person's life story? Stuff like occupation, immigration, and yes previous 
and/or childless marriages. If it's part of his life, and you've got data 
to support that part of it, you should definitively have it in.

João C. Ventura

On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 8:09:53 PM UTC+2, Tomas Leal wrote:
>
> Is it correct to list all marriages of an ancestor, even those that 
> produced no children? 
>
> In building my family tree, I have been showing all marriages, even those 
> that ended in divorce or death but without children. Someone recently 
> questioned whether it is "correct" to list non-relatives who do not factor 
> into genealogy because there were no children. My stand is that whatever 
> happened in the family--birth, marriage, death--gets shown.
>
> What do others on this list do?
>
> Tomás
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] José Tomás Dias from Ponta Delgada, Flores in the the US (California, Nevada)

[João Ventura]

Hello everyone,

Thanks for your invaluable help. I'll try to see if his daughter can look 
at some of the information you provided and maybe remember some facts that 
can help sort out the records. I was only looking for Jose(ph) Dias, but 
indeed looking at Joseph Thomas might be the way to go. I believe that on 
the second time, he did get a passport so I'll probably have to look at 
that over in S. Miguel. I have some pictures of him and another friend of 
him while he was in Nevada. I'll try to scan it and post it here.

Eric, yes I'd be sure you'd have him in your records :) I probably have 
some pictures from your side of the family as well. I think the Nóias and 
this family were quite close. His oldest daugther married José Lourenço 
Nóia, and even though the only Nóia ancestor seems to be Belchior Gomes 
Nóia, I've seen that many of the extended family did marry with the Nóia 
family.

I forgot to add the link to my record for José in my original post: 
http://venturas.org/familytree/individual.php?pid=I49&ged=venturas

And his family: 
http://venturas.org/familytree/family.php?famid=F18&ged=venturas (some 
details are private, as D. Policena, his third daugther is still alive and 
kicking).

João C. Ventura

On Tuesday, August 20, 2013 9:29:00 PM UTC+2, luiznoia wrote:
>
> Joao, 
>
> I have him in my files. He was baptized on 3 Oct 1877, son of Jose Thomas 
> Ramos and Anna Clara , Paternos are: Thomas Jose Ramos and Joanna 
> Francisca, maternos: Antonio Narciso and Maria Clara.
>
> The margin note on his baptism shows the death date at 16 Apr 1959. 
>
> You'll find Joe Thomas on the census here at line 37, a shepard. They are 
> at Island Mountain , Elko, Nevada.
>
> On the shiplist for the Peninsular 15 Sep 1898, from Flores to New York, 
> you'll see 2 Jose Thomas, ages 19 and 20 ,  and a Francisco Thomas.
>
> One Joseph Thomas says he is joining an uncle Pedro Thomas in 
> Massachucets, The other Joseph Thomas says San Francisco
>
>
>  Francisco is headed to Mason Valley, Nevada. That's in Lyon county, 50 
> miles from Reno. He is joining an uncle Frank Martin. On the census is a 
> Frank M Freitas, 
>
> Sheep would have been herded from the summer in high mountains ( around 
> Lyon county) to winter in low desert to avoid heavy snow ( like Elko)
>
>
>
> Eric Edgar
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 2:55 AM, João Ventura 
> > wrote:
>
>> Hello group,
>>
>> I don't usually post requests for help, but I think this is the right 
>> place to ask this one before wasting time.
>>
>> I'm looking for the American trail of my wife's great-grandfather, José 
>> Tomás Dias. He was born on October 1st, 1877 and died on April 16th, 1959 
>> both events in Ponta Delgada, Flores.
>>
>> I've got information from his oldest daughter (still living) that goes 
>> like this:
>>
>> - With 21 years (1898) he sailed on the "Peninsular" from Santa Cruz, 
>> Flores to California. He was a sheepherder in Nevada. After 12 years 
>> (~1910), he returned to Flores.
>> (facts) On January 27th, 1912 he married in Ponta Delgada, and his first 
>> daughter Maria Lourenço Dias was born on March 27th, 1913.
>> - After 1 year and 3 months after his marriage (April 1913), he sailed 
>> from São Miguel back to the US where he stayed 6-8 years (1919/1921). He 
>> never returned to the US.
>> (facts) His second daughter was born on August 14th, 1923.
>>
>> He probably stayed/went with friends, so there might be others on this 
>> list that have knowledge of this US periods from José. Also, where could I 
>> find information on this 'Peninsular' boat, and the destination ports? I've 
>> seen Doug Holmes' http://www.dholmes.com/ships.html page and noticed 
>> that it has some passenger records for the Peninsular all going to Ellis 
>> Island. However, a search in the Ellis Island database apparently didn't 
>> turn up any conclusive match.
>>
>> Also, would the US Census for Nevada pick up a sheepherder?
>>
>> Thanks for any info,
>>
>> João C. Ventura
>> (not the one living in the Azores)
>>
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>> membership."
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&

Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Faria surname

[João Ventura]

ut not as universally, so he can only 
>> speak a bit of it, understands a lot of it, and can't read a single word. 
>>  Note-my mother's middle name was Margarida after her grandmother.
>>
>> I don't know anything about a priest or a cousin in Providence, but I 
>> know there was a niece who lived (maybe still does) in Fall River.  They 
>> offered to sponsor her if she moved to Stonington, but instead she chose to 
>> live with her in-laws and my grandmother never heard from her again--she 
>> arrived here in the early 60"s.
>>
>> And Jose Maria Machado and his family live in Somerville, MA-  Jose Maria 
>> is probably around 90 if he is still alive.  I have his son's email 
>> address, but haven't heard from them since my mother died in 2006.  He is 
>> the one who gave me the info that enabled me to connect with Amelia when we 
>> went over there.
>>
>> Fred
>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 7:42 PM, mcfa...@rogers.com wrote:
>>
>> Hi, I guess we are cousins. * *
>> *Jose Maria Faria* was the older brother, about 2 years older, of my 
>> grandfather, *João Ventura de Faria, *Born: July 14, 1899 -8am.  
>> My father was 36 years old when I was born.  I believe when Jose Maria 
>> Faria arrived in America, he came with a sister, and left behind 3 siblings 
>> in Lagoa.  Jose Maria Faria is my granduncle, not great uncle.  I do not 
>> think, I was there in 1964, probably earlier.  I was about 3 years old or 
>> younger, I do not remember the adults very well, but I remember Jose Maria 
>> Faria because as a toddler, I did something stupid.  I remember his wife, 
>> she saved me from an awkward situation.  I remember her to be a kind, 
>> gentle person.  I have distant cousins in Providence, Island, and there was 
>> a priest related to us, I believe in Warwick.
>> If you find any more Faria ancestors, I would appreciate.  I went back as 
>> far as, *José de Faria & **Antonia Francisca, *they would be Jose Maria 
>> Faria's great, great grandparents*, *I double checked on this one. 
>>  Regarding the Machado, I believe we were in the Azores for just over 500 
>> years.  My great, great grandmother, *Margarida de Jesus da Costa 
>> Castelo *Born:  February 19, 1846 remarried to Manuel Machado in 1899. 
>>  According to my research, alot of widows or widowers remarried for 
>> survival.  I do not know any Machados in Lagoa, you might have a hard time 
>> finding them, especially since many of our previous generation has passed 
>> away.  I only know 3 Faria counsins in Lagoa and thats because the previous 
>> generation introduced us.
>>
>> On Monday, August 19, 2013 12:39:24 PM UTC-5, Fred Souza wrote:
>>>
>>> hi, I suspect from what you are telling me that we are cousins.  My 
>>> godfather was Jose Maria Faria from Stonington and my grandfather was his 
>>> first cousin since his mother was a Faria.  I am at work as I am opening 
>>> this email, but * *think that then my grandfather would be your great 
>>> uncle as well since they were first cousins.  If you were here in 1964., 
>>> when in that year since that is the year that Jose passed away.  Likewise, 
>>> if you met my godmother (his wife) you have met the other side of my 
>>> maternal line since they all grew up within a couple of blocks of one 
>>> another in Rosario/Lagoa.  There is also family from the Machado line near 
>>> Boston and there are some from either the Faria side or the Machado side or 
>>> both in Toronto, and I have a vague memory of meeting someone (probably in 
>>> 1964 or thereabouts--I was 12 or so at the time)
>>>
>>> Write back and perhaps we should also talk on the phone about some of 
>>> this.  
>>>
>>> Someone recently sent me a full listing of the Machado side of this, so 
>>> your Faria relatives should at least show up there somewhere in his 
>>> mother's line even though it doesn't go back too far.  So you may the other 
>>> piece of that puzzle since the Machado information went back to roughly 
>>> 1100 and emigration to the Azores from the Porto region of the mainland, 
>>> but it looks like the line was pretty solidly in Rosario for about 800 
>>> years, and I know there is still a cousin there from the Machado line as I 
>>> met her a few years ago when we went over there.  She told me that everyone 
>>> else in the family had moved to Livramento (sp?) so if I ever go again, I 
>>> will be trying to find those people.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Fred Souza
&

[AZORES-Genealogy] José Tomás Dias from Ponta Delgada, Flores in the the US (California, Nevada)

[João Ventura]

Hello group,

I don't usually post requests for help, but I think this is the right place 
to ask this one before wasting time.

I'm looking for the American trail of my wife's great-grandfather, José 
Tomás Dias. He was born on October 1st, 1877 and died on April 16th, 1959 
both events in Ponta Delgada, Flores.

I've got information from his oldest daughter (still living) that goes like 
this:

- With 21 years (1898) he sailed on the "Peninsular" from Santa Cruz, 
Flores to California. He was a sheepherder in Nevada. After 12 years 
(~1910), he returned to Flores.
(facts) On January 27th, 1912 he married in Ponta Delgada, and his first 
daughter Maria Lourenço Dias was born on March 27th, 1913.
- After 1 year and 3 months after his marriage (April 1913), he sailed from 
São Miguel back to the US where he stayed 6-8 years (1919/1921). He never 
returned to the US.
(facts) His second daughter was born on August 14th, 1923.

He probably stayed/went with friends, so there might be others on this list 
that have knowledge of this US periods from José. Also, where could I find 
information on this 'Peninsular' boat, and the destination ports? I've seen 
Doug Holmes' http://www.dholmes.com/ships.html page and noticed that it has 
some passenger records for the Peninsular all going to Ellis Island. 
However, a search in the Ellis Island database apparently didn't turn up 
any conclusive match.

Also, would the US Census for Nevada pick up a sheepherder?

Thanks for any info,

João C. Ventura
(not the one living in the Azores)

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Portugal records and Familysearch/Family History Centers

[João Ventura]

Hi, E

The etombo.com site is severely out of date. It hasn't been updated in more 
than two years, and there's several districts that are no longer accessible 
via that portal.

Among others, that's why I'm developing a replacement system in 
http://tombo.pt. I've got the crawler working, and I've scraped up a simple 
'what's new' page while the rest of the system isn't ready to completely 
replace the etombo. If you want to navigate parishes in Portugal easily, 
for now I'd recommend http://www.quinta-do-mosteiro.com/linksparq.htm

João Ventura
(the other one)

On Sunday, August 11, 2013 11:05:01 PM UTC+2, E Sharp wrote:
>
> Coming in a little late on this but for mainland Portugal records, I use  
> http://www.etombo.com/  
> They keep adding to these records.  
>  
> "E"
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Cheri Mello 
> > wrote:
>
>> Here's the problem (this is all tongue-in-cheek so no one needs to get 
>> upset...I'm just trying to find some humor in all this frustration)
>>  
>> The Portuguese people like a good glass of vinho.  The LDS members do not 
>> drink wine (or any other type of alcohol).  Otherwise, the whole problem 
>> would have been solved over a nice glass of vinho from the Algarve (or 
>> wherever they grow the grapes for that good wine)!  :) :) :) LOL
>>  
>> -- 
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>> membership."
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>>
>
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Portugal records and Familysearch/Family History Centers

[João Ventura]

Hi Eileen

Portugal is also putting their records online.. There's links to the 
parish-level book indexes here:

http://www.quinta-do-mosteiro.com/linksparq.htm

Funny thing is that looking at the list, it seems that Portugal has lots of 
stuff available that is not on the FamilySearch website and vice-versa.. I 
do know that all Braga records, and the Elvas, Portalegre records are only 
available in FamilySearch (and for everyone, as these were not covered by 
the agreement).

The agreement does say that all data will be made publicly available by the 
Portuguese government. What's frustrating a lot of us is that there's more 
then 420.000 books total, and only about 141.000 are currently available.. 
That's only 33% of the total. While I'm happy that I can use those 33% 
already, I know that part of the 66% I can't access are available to LDS 
church members. Granted the LDS church took the financial burden to 
microfilm and now digitize those records, but it feels stupid to have to 
wait on Government burocracy to process the images provided by the LDS 
church.

João Ventura
(the other one)

On Sunday, August 11, 2013 7:39:54 PM UTC+2, Eileen Leite wrote:
>
> Wouldn’t that be great!  I don’t know which entity negotiated permission 
> to film the records,  but I do know that when the LDS church goes in to 
> film records they seek the broadest permission possible. Since the Azores 
> and Madeira are putting records online, perhaps Portugal will loosen their 
> conditions at some point.  
>
>  
>
> Eileen Leite
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:* Cheri Mello [mailto:gfsc...@gmail.com ] 
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 11, 2013 12:14 PM
> *To:* Azores Genealogy
> *Subject:* Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Portugal records and 
> Familysearch/Family History Centers
>
>  
>
> BUT, it's not set in stone.  Someone can go back and renegotiate the 
> agreement and see if they can get approval at some future date.  And is 
> this agreement with the mainland government, the Azorean government, or the 
> Madeiran government?  At least we have the CCA (for the Azores) and the ARM 
> (for Madeira) putting them online (albeit a bit slowly) for the public to 
> view.  Don't know if they will ever be searchable, like on FamilySearch 
> though.
>
>
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada 
>
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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: [AZORES-Genealogy) Family History Centers & Familysearch.org

[João Ventura]

On Thursday, August 8, 2013 2:44:11 PM UTC+2, Eileen Leite wrote:

> FamilySearch.org is a free online site that has millions of records, 
> including US Censuses.  They are gradually adding films from continental 
> Portugal, some indexed, some just as digitalized, browsable, films. Someone 
> posted this week that the Portugal information on FamilySearch is only 
> accessible to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  
> That is not the case.  I spoke with my local FHC Director about that. 
>  Logging in as a member of the LDS church gives one fullest access to the 
> site, especially to the personal family trees.  You can also log in without 
> being a member of that church: click LOG IN and then “Create An Account”. 
> But going in without logging in still gives you broad access.
>
Hi,

Eileen, sorry to reiterate.. Most of the Portuguese images are 
off-limits  >>> from the comfort of their homes <<< to non-members of the 
LDS church OR supporting organizations. My steps to reproduce:

1. Login to the FamilySearch.org site.
2. Select Search > Continental Europe > Portugal > (... ) Faro (...) > 
Browse through 138.057 images > Faro > Albufeira > Guia > Nossa Senhora da 
Visitação > Batismos 1845-1865
3. Error "Image not available" (confirming that I am still logged in).

You can see in 
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Portugal,_Diocese_of_Faro_Catholic_Church_Records_(FamilySearch_Historical_Records)
 :

"Whenever possible, FamilySearch makes images available for all users. 
However, ultimate rights to view images on our website are granted by the 
record custodians. The Portugal, Faro, Catholic Church Records collection 
is available to the Family History Library, FamilySearch Centers, and to 
members of the supporting organization, The Church of Jesus Christ of 
Latter-day Saints. The images can be viewed at a FamilySearch Center near 
you."

So, if you want to travel physically to an FHC to access an Internet site, 
yes you'll have access even without being a member. I'm so glad that I 
don't have to go to the nearest Google Data Center to access Google.. What 
a pain that would be. There is an FHC in the town I live. It stays open for 
about 1 hour every Tuesday after my work day finishes. Imagine how useful 
the internet would be if you could only access Google 1 hour per week.

João Ventura

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Culturacores Website

[João Ventura]

Hi Cherri,

First of, just stating (again) I'm not the João Ventura you wrote about :)

The situation in the Azores may be similar to the one in mainland Portugal. 
There, the records were all microfilmed and are being digitized by the LDS 
church. However, due to the agreement between the Portuguese government and 
the Utah Genealogical Society (I think they are now called FamilySearch 
Inc.), the records can only be made available on FamilySearch to church 
members. The general public has access to those records via the official 
Portuguese goverment organization (CCA, DGLAB, ARM).

There are some exceptions to the above, as some archives weren't 'owned' by 
the Government itself, but rather by other branches such as universities 
(District of Braga archives) and city halls (Guimarães, Elvas). In these 
cases, the records are available to everyone.

As you can understand it's also been very frustrating for us in Portugal 
that the DGLAB people take forever to make available to the general public 
what the LDS has made available to the church members for years. We also 
fail to understand why the agreement dictated this restriction. Recently we 
started a mail campaign that resulted in the current spurt of 
lots-of-records-every-day that began in July 10, and since then has made 
available over 5000 parish books online. I'm attaching the original letter.

>From my discussion recently at the Horta archive, they confirmed that all 
these books from the CCA were microfilmed/digitized by the LDS church, and 
that they are the ones providing all the images. The CCA then applies the 
watermark and verifies that the images are accurate. So a little mail 
campaign may also help in this case. I can adapt the attached letter so 
that it addresses the CCA director instead if there's some interest, and 
make it bi-lingual so that you guys can understand what you're signing.

Needless to say, paper still goes a lot further than e-mails in these 
bureaucratic environments.

João Ventura

On Wednesday, August 7, 2013 1:28:09 AM UTC+2, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> I can't remember all the details, but when Joao Ventura (the archivist) 
> was in Utah, FamilySearch caught wind of it.  He got a tour of Granite 
> Mountain and they "kidnapped" him for a special meeting.
>
> Maybe Joao will remember...I think that they told us (I was present for 
> that part) that ALL of their microfilm will be digitized in 5 or 6 years.  
> That was April 2012, so you can figure that out. They are indexing the film 
> as it becomes digitized.  But Family Search has you do some American 
> records (to get used to their indexing system) before any "foreign" records.
>
> I think part of the meeting with Joao was to find out who to contact for 
> more record filming and that kind of thing.  I don't think anyone was 
> opposed to to the records being accessible on the Internet.  I think Family 
> Search's logic would be to put records online that have many researchers 
> using them.  So if Brazil has almost 194 million people versus the Azores' 
> 246,000, well, that might explain Family Search's thinking.
>
> It's been awhile since I've asked, but maybe it's time for us to email the 
> CCA, telling them how grateful we are for their resource, it's much 
> appreciated, etc, etc.  They don't have the counters on every page, so 
> depending on which page we've bookmarked, they may not be getting a true 
> count.  So let's email them and maybe that will motivate them to put a few 
> more records online!  Their email address is: 
> *drac...@azores.gov.pt(English or Portuguese)
> *
>
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada 
>

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Exmo Senhor Director da DGLAB.docx
Description: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document

[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Culturacores Website

[João Ventura]

Hi John,

There haven't been any updates to the CCA online parish records in several 
months now.. The Joao Ventura you contacted is, I believe, an employee of 
DRAC so he may have an insider access to the unreleased stuff.

I've been making a site to track the updates to the Portuguese parishes 
records online, and I haven't seen anything in the Azores for months. 
Portugal itself is going through an interesting some-records-every-day 
phase since early July (see http://tombo.pt). I've spoken to an employee of 
the Horta Archive and he indicated that the rest of the Horta parishes are 
ready for release but they're stuck somewhere in the process. Hopefully it 
doesn't have anything to do with the fact that some DRAC employees can get 
paid to supply them on the side.

Regards,

João Ventura
(the other one)

On Monday, August 5, 2013 7:28:18 AM UTC+2, John Machado wrote:
>
> I was curious if anyone knows when and if additional records will be added 
> to the 
> Culturacores<http://www.culturacores.azores.gov.pt/ig/registos/Default.aspx>website.
>   I have been checking in every once in a while to see if 
> Flamengos, Faial records have been added.  Has there been activity for 
> other islands and parishes?  It has been such an invaluable resource.  I 
> noticed some of the records I ordered through Joao Ventura also had the 
> watermark (DRAC-EPARJJG) similar to those images on the website.  Those 
> ordered records came from parishes not on the website.  That seems to 
> suggest the records are in existence but not yet uploaded?  Joao is a great 
> asset but sometimes I have to just read all the records online to get him a 
> starting point.  
>  
> John
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Help w/ Madalena, Pico baptism

[João Ventura]

Hello, Fawn

I think the year is 1788, the wife's name is Rosa Maria residents of "Vale 
Levante" the Parish is of course, the Santa Maria Madalena in Pico, the 
godfather's name seems to be José Inácio Oliveira of the village of Faial.

Note that "Vale Levante", means eastern valley, so it doesn't have to be a 
specific place existing today.

Also, I'm not sure this is the same Vicencia Rosa.. It clearly says that 
the Vicencia in the marriage record was born and baptized in Sta. Luzia. In 
any case, the second one is this person:

http://www.ghp.ics.uminho.pt/geneweb/gwd.exe?b=StaLuzia;lang=pt;p=vicencia;n=rosa

Her death record is: 
http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/PIC-SR-SANTALUZIA-O-1795-1853/PIC-SR-SANTALUZIA-O-1795-1853_item1/P167.html

Note that it's not that uncommon for women to have morphing names.. Try to 
research her mother's family comes from some 'Francisco' family. Also, it's 
quite possible she lied about having been abandoned. It's also possible she 
didn't know.

João

On Monday, July 1, 2013 5:51:49 AM UTC+2, 2si...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Hello Group,
>  
> I have not posted for quite a while but need some help with a baptism I 
> just found.  This is for Vincencia Roza, who was left on a doorstep @ birth 
> at the home of Joseph de Rosa and his wife __ Maria and was baptized in 
> Madalena, Pico.
>  
> I can't read all of it but what I got out of it was:
>
> Vicenta, daughter of unknown parents September 5, 1785, was laid at the 
> door of Joseph da Rosa and his wife _  Maria, residents of _ 
> natives of this parish __Madelena, Pico, and was baptized on the 6thday 
> of the same month, godfather was grandson, Joseph Ignatio_ Fayal
>  
> But in her Sept 1811 Santa Luzia, Pico, marriage record Vincentia is 
> listed as the legitimate daughter of Joze  Roza and Maria Francisca.  
> Did they adopt her and so she became legitimate?  Was Maria Francisca a 
> different wife than the __ Maria in the baptism record?
>  
> Also, when you come across someone who has been adopted, do you then 
> follow the adopted family line?  That sounds like what I would like to do 
> since they obviously became her parents.
>  
> I don't know how to attach these baptism & marriage records but here are 
> the sites:
>  
> Baptism:  
>
> ***
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/PIC-MD-MADALENA-B-1785-1800/PIC-MD-MADALENA-B-1785-1800_item1/P57.html
> *
>
> Marriage:
>
>
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/PIC-SR-SANTALUZIA-C-1735-1815/PIC-SR-SANTALUZIA-C-1735-1815_item1/P267.html
>
>  
>
> Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated!!
>
> Thank you,
>
> Fawn Silva
>
> St. Louis, MO
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Backing up data works

[João Ventura]

Hello all,

I'd recommend even better than a backup. Get a Dropbox account (use this 
link, it will give us both a 500Mb bonus: http://db.tt/vhqiAWp )

Then after installing the Dropbox client on your machine, and copying your 
genealogy files to that folder, simply setup your program to use those 
files. Dropbox will always make a backup of your files, and it even keeps a 
30-day history of them so you can return back in time in case of 
mistakes... Also, if you use multiple computers, Dropbox takes care of 
synchronizing the files across both of them as long as they're connected to 
the Internet, so you no longer have to copy files manually.

Sorry if this sounded like a commercial. It just makes my life so much 
easier, I can't really stop recommending :) Try it, and I'm sure you'll be 
recommending it to others in no time also.

João Ventura

On Sunday, June 23, 2013 3:52:00 AM UTC+2, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> So glad to hear a story about someone restoring from a back up!
>
>
>
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada 
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Digital Book on Genetic Structure of Flores Island, Azores

[João Ventura]

Hello, Cindy

This is actually a research paper from a PhD student in Barcelona. She 
completed her study in 2005, and included the article in her PhD thesis 
available at 
http://www.tdx.cat/bitstream/handle/10803/3666/cmps1de1.pdf?sequence=1

Some of the terms of her work will be familiar to those that are FTDNA 
users. But it helps (a lot) to know several languages. I see Spanish, 
English, Portuguese and French at least. The article in question starts in 
page 120, and is written in English.

It helps a lot to try to dig deeper into Google when you see an 'ebook' 
with such a title. They are usually research papers. Still $6 for one can 
be considered cheap. They used to cost about $50. On the other hand, 
considering that all her work was financed through a Portuguese government 
grant, I find it funny that Amazon and others are now deriving profit from 
it. Actually not funny at all. It reminds me that the 
US Government drove Aaron Swartz to commit suicide, as a result of his 
actions to make this kind of work freely available to all.

João Ventura

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 5:24:51 PM UTC+2, Cindy D wrote:
>
>
> Ok, I'll admit it, I'm finally behind the times on computer stuff.  Today 
> I bought a book that sounded interesting and cheap on Amazon:
>
>- Genetic structure of Flores island (Azores, Portugal) in the 19th 
>century and in the present day: evidence from surname analysis.: An 
> article 
>from: Human Biology 
>
> <http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CQN572/ref=oh_d__o00_details_o00__i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1>
>  
>Cristina Santos, Augusto Abade, Jordi Cantons, Francine M. Mayer, M. 
>Pilar Aluja, Manuela Lima
>
>
> It said download http digital...so I assumed I could download it to my 
> computer and open it up..eh, apparently not.  Do I need an e-reader to 
> view this?? Is there a way I can view it with a normal computer?   I'm 
> guessing the book will be way over my head anyway, but I'd still like to 
> peek at it.
>
> Cindy D
> blowing in the wind in Kansas
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Uploading protocol for the CCA Web site

[João Ventura]

Hello,

It's neither the church nor the village. Those records are organized by the 
Portuguese administrative divisions. In this case they are categorized by:

1. Ilha / Island
2. Conselho / Municipality
3. Freguesia / Civil Parish (the translated term is a bit stupid, but 
taking into account that they had a 1:1 mapping about a century ago, it's 
understandble).

In most cases, the Freguesia is named after the city/town/vilage, but in 
some cases - usually when a city had multiple parishes - that would lead to 
situations like in Paris where the arrondissements are numbered from 1 to 
20. In those cases, the freguesia was named after something else. In deeply 
religious areas (such as the Azores) the name was usually the same as the 
catholic parish name. In places like Lisbon, they were named after the 
common-use names for the neighborhoods.

João


> 

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: New to group and need help. Mendonca, Freitas from Faja Grande, flores.

[João Ventura]

Hi Jason,

After writing the previous email, and since the 'Casais' book doesn't 
mention Maria de Freitas's birhtplace as different, I turned back a few 
pages in the baptism records, and I found her. Strangely enough she was 
born on June 2nd, 1877. I wonder why the dates you indicate are exactly one 
month offset from their official births, but other than that the match is 
perfect.

Her birth record mentions the same: filha natural of Maria da Conceição, 
solteira (single). But it also mentions the grandparents, so you can try to 
look for their marriage record in the Casais book also. In a normal case, 
you should be able to use the book to find most of your ancestors marriage 
records back to the early 1700s.

All my research is online at http://venturas.org/familytree, but I have few 
ancestors in that part of Flores (see http://bit.ly/1460XYW). However, 
there are other Flores researches in this group that may help to provide 
you with extra details that are not in the Casais book, such as the birth 
and death facts, and also siblings. I'd suggest you first build your 
ancestor's tree, and then send an email listing all the generations. Your 
cousins on this list will then easily see where your tree overlaps theirs 
by simply looking at the later generations.

One last item of note, it might be possible that you haven't felt the need 
for dedicated software up to this point. Building the Flores tree back to 
1700, you might end up with several hundred individiuals. One possible 
(free) alternative is Gramps, but there are also commercial alternatives 
that cost more and provide more features.

Regards,

João

On Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:55:09 AM UTC+2, Jason Brown wrote:
>
> Thank you very much.  I will definitely look into getting the book.  
>
> Jason
>
> On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 9:59:18 PM UTC+9, João Ventura wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jason,
>>
>> Your great grandfather's baptism record seems to be this one (nº25): 
>> http://www.culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/FLR-LF-FAJAGRANDE-B-1861-1889/FLR-LF-FAJAGRANDE-B-1861-1889_item1/P226.html
>>
>> Note that it says that he was born in September 4th.
>>
>> Looking at the 'Casais das Flores' book, these are the details of his 
>> marriage to your great-grandmother: António José de Mendonça [21 anos, f.º 
>> de António José de Mendonça e de Maria Inácia] c. 1899.05.06 c. Maria de 
>> Freitas de Mendonça [21 anos, f.ª natural de Maria da Conceição do Espírito 
>> Santo].
>>
>> Your great-great-grandparents marriage record is in the 'Fajazinha' 
>> parish from which the 'Faja Grande' was detached in 1861: António José de 
>> Mendonça [f.º de Caetano José de Mendonça e de Inácia Rosa] c. 1850.08.31 
>> c. Maria Inácia do Coração de Jesus [f.ª de António Coelho Ramos e de Maria 
>> Inácia].
>>
>> If you're going to research Flores, you should get the 'Casais das 
>> Flores' e-book. It's very cheap and you'll help to support the author who 
>> did an amazing job.
>>
>> Happy researching,
>>
>> João Ventura
>>
>> On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 8:37:50 AM UTC+2, Jason Brown wrote:
>>>
>>> Please Help,
>>>
>>> During my family tree research, I have hit a brick wall when it comes to 
>>> my Azores side.
>>>
>>> My Great Grandfather is,
>>>
>>> Antone Joseph Mendonca was born on August 4th, 1877 in Faji Grande, 
>>>
>>> Azores. He died on December 2nd, 1944 in Merced, California. He married 
>>>
>>> Marie Ignacio Freitas. 
>>>
>>> Timeline:
>>>
>>> Antone resided in 1935 in Merced, California. 
>>>
>>> He resided on April 1st, 1940 in Merced, California, United States.  
>>>
>>> He was born in 1878 in Portugal.  
>>>
>>> He resided in 1920 in Township 5, Merced, California.  
>>>
>>> Marie Ignacio Freitas was born on May 2nd, 1877 in Flores, Azores, 
>>>
>>> Portugal. She died on March 5th, 1943 in Merced, California. 
>>>
>>> Timeline:
>>>
>>>
>>> Marie resided in 1920 in Township 5, Merced, California. 
>>>
>>> She resided in 1935 in Merced, California. 
>>>
>>> She resided on 1 Apr 1940 in Merced, California, United States. 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have not been able to find any direct sources of their births in the 
>>> Azores. I have plenty of sources for when they were living in California. 
>>> But its like a black hole, once i hit Azores. Can anyone help?
>>>
>>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: The Azores are a part of Portugal

[João Ventura]

One possible compromise solution, that is also very common and avoids all 
the (São, Sao, Santo, San, Saint, St., Sto, etc.) is to simply abbreviate 
it always down to one letter:

S. Miguel
S. Jorge
S. Maria

The first two are actually quite common. Usually Santo/Santa gets 
abbreviated to Sto/Sta, however..

João

On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 5:05:46 PM UTC+2, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> Spelling was always one of my strong subjects, so try really hard not to 
> let misspellings bother me, but in this case I really need to speak up.
>
> The Azores are a part of Portugal, not Spain.  The language of the Azores 
> and Portugal is Portuguese, not Spanish.
>
> The word for saint in Portuguese is Sao (properly, it's São).  The word 
> for saint in Spanish is San.  
>
> I know there are many areas of the U.S. that touch the Mexican border and 
> for those of us in these areas, we may encounter the Spanish language more 
> frequently, so we may not even notice the San instead of Sao, since San is 
> so familiar to us.  They even have lots of cities named in Spanish after 
> saints (San Francisco is one).  
>
> So if you are in the habit of typing San on this list, or are new to 
> Portuguese genealogy and didn't realize the difference, please put a 
> post-it on your computer that says: Sao Miguel, Sao Jorge, or Sao whatever 
> (if that is your freguesia).
>
> People write me and say, for example, that they remember a post about Sao 
> Vicente on Sao Miguel and they can't find it in the archive.  So I search 
> the archive by typing in Sao Vicente and Sao Miguel and I can't find it 
> either.  Then I have to play around with the San and even sometimes the 
> translation into English.  
>
> Please, please, please, stick with the Portuguese spelling!
>
> P.S.  On Sao Miguel...it's MiGuel...a G in there...not a Q.  That one 
> makes the message impossible to find in the archive.
>
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada 
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: New to group and need help. Mendonca, Freitas from Faja Grande, flores.

[João Ventura]

Hi Jason,

Your great grandfather's baptism record seems to be this one (nº25): 
http://www.culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/FLR-LF-FAJAGRANDE-B-1861-1889/FLR-LF-FAJAGRANDE-B-1861-1889_item1/P226.html

Note that it says that he was born in September 4th.

Looking at the 'Casais das Flores' book, these are the details of his 
marriage to your great-grandmother: António José de Mendonça [21 anos, f.º 
de António José de Mendonça e de Maria Inácia] c. 1899.05.06 c. Maria de 
Freitas de Mendonça [21 anos, f.ª natural de Maria da Conceição do Espírito 
Santo].

Your great-great-grandparents marriage record is in the 'Fajazinha' parish 
from which the 'Faja Grande' was detached in 1861: António José de Mendonça 
[f.º de Caetano José de Mendonça e de Inácia Rosa] c. 1850.08.31 c. Maria 
Inácia do Coração de Jesus [f.ª de António Coelho Ramos e de Maria Inácia].

If you're going to research Flores, you should get the 'Casais das Flores' 
e-book. It's very cheap and you'll help to support the author who did an 
amazing job.

Happy researching,

João Ventura

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 8:37:50 AM UTC+2, Jason Brown wrote:
>
> Please Help,
>
> During my family tree research, I have hit a brick wall when it comes to 
> my Azores side.
>
> My Great Grandfather is,
>
> Antone Joseph Mendonca was born on August 4th, 1877 in Faji Grande, 
>
> Azores. He died on December 2nd, 1944 in Merced, California. He married 
>
> Marie Ignacio Freitas. 
>
> Timeline:
>
> Antone resided in 1935 in Merced, California. 
>
> He resided on April 1st, 1940 in Merced, California, United States.  
>
> He was born in 1878 in Portugal.  
>
> He resided in 1920 in Township 5, Merced, California.  
>
> Marie Ignacio Freitas was born on May 2nd, 1877 in Flores, Azores, 
>
> Portugal. She died on March 5th, 1943 in Merced, California. 
>
> Timeline:
>
>
> Marie resided in 1920 in Township 5, Merced, California. 
>
> She resided in 1935 in Merced, California. 
>
> She resided on 1 Apr 1940 in Merced, California, United States. 
>
>
>
>
> I have not been able to find any direct sources of their births in the 
> Azores. I have plenty of sources for when they were living in California. 
> But its like a black hole, once i hit Azores. Can anyone help?
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] BIBLIOTECA PUBLICA E ARQUIVO DE PONTA DELGADA Archive Requests

[João Ventura]

Hi Denis,

You have to ask the "Registro Civil" of the municipality that covers those 
records. Or if you can read Portuguese, you can try to register in the 
"Certidoes Online" service 
(http://www.portaldocidadao.pt/portal/pt/certidoes_online/hp.htm) and order 
one. Note that records via this portal will cost 10x more than the 
non-certified records which usually suffice for genealogical use  However, 
you'll need to go physically to the Records Office to ask for those (or ask 
a family member).

João Ventura

On Monday, May 13, 2013 5:14:46 PM UTC+2, sm figueiredo wrote:
>
> George: As I understand, you originally requested information of what was 
> currently available at the Archives in Ponta Delgada, São Miguel.  Their 
> response is what you earlier posted, and also partially included in your 
> May 13, 2013 post.
>
> My question then is: where does one go to find São Miguel records after 
> 1911, and Santa Maria records after 1905?
> Denis
>
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 4:53 AM, George Pacheco 
> 
> > wrote:
>
>> Cheri, I asked the archive what they had available at the archives, 
>> because now the have marriages and deaths higher than 1911, and that was 
>> their response i notice that they they also did not mention povoação, and 
>> what Trish mentioned above, I thought I would share what they sent , 
>> I guess I shouldn't have share because it caused confusion.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:19 AM, Cheri Mello 
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Um, I've been at a festa all day.  I'm not sure what you're referring 
>>> to, George.  You're making me feel like I've had too much vinho!  LOL
>>>
>>> This stuff isn't up on the CCA. What are you referring to?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>> Cheri Mello
>>> Listowner, Azores-Gen
>>> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
>>> Tainhas, Achada 
>>>
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>>> membership."
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>>> .
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>>>  
>>>  
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
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>>
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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Familias da Ilha das Flores: Availability Question plus Lookup Request

[João Ventura]

Hi David,

You can e-mail Francisco Gomes at the following address f r a n c i s c o a 
n p g o m e s at p o r t u g a l m a i l dot c o m

Last time I emailed him (end of last year), he did indicate that he was 
preparing the 'Familias' ebook. I'm sure he'd appreciate to know that he 
would be able to sell one more copy of the book, so I'd encourage you to 
contact him and say so.

Best regards,

João Ventura

On Thursday, May 2, 2013 5:03:18 AM UTC+2, David wrote:
>
> I have tried to locate online either some place from which I can purchase 
> a copy of the book Familias da Ilha das Flores or else some library that 
> has a copy I could request...  But no luck yet on either score.  Not even 
> the Family History Library Catalog seems to list it...
>
> I did locate on a cached page from the Azores Regional Government website 
> an e-mail address for the author, who apparently had a role with a 
> government agency, but the current version of the website no longer carries 
> his name or that government e-mail address, so I have to assume he is no 
> longer in that role and so the e-mail address is no longer effective.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I could obtain a hard copy, or 
> are they all gone and I just need to wait for the e-book version to get 
> published (and in the meantime rely on the kindness of strangers for 
> look-ups)?
>
> So, pending my getting hands on a copy of the Familias book, I do need to 
> ask for someone to do me the kindness of looking up a couple whom I located 
> in the Lajes das Flores section of the Casais das Flores e do Corvo book, 
> and letting me know in particular the names and birth dates of any children 
> they had:
>
> José Francisco Coelho [n. Lomba, Lajes das Flores, f.º de Manuel 
> FurtadoCoelho e de Isabel 
> Furtado] c. 1844.09.01 c. Ana da Trindade [f.ª de Manuel Furtado Lourenço 
> e de Maria da Trindade]. -- from Casais, p. 107.
>
> Thanks in advance for any help...
>
> David da Silva Cornell
> Miami, FL
>
> Researching the following surnames:
>  
> Faial - Terra (unknown freguesia(s))
>  
> Flores - Freitas, Lourenço, Coelho (unknown freguesia(s))
>  
> Pico - Silveira Cardoso, Macedo, Machado, Pereira Madruga, Ferreira,
> Cardoso, Cardoso Machado, Vieira, Bettencourt, Dutra, Castanho, Homem,
> Goulart, Quaresma, Moniz, Barreto, Silveira, Mancebo, Pereira, Álvares 
> (all
> Lajes do Pico)
>  
> S. Jorge - Silva, Botelho, Azevedo, Cardoso (Urzelina); Silva, Azevedo,
> Cardoso (Santo António in Norte Grande)
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Genealogias da Ilha Terceira

[João Ventura]

Try to complain about this in geneall. They're sure to see it. Post it in 
their forum in  http://www.geneall.net/P/forum.php

I'd title it "Pedido de ajuda para contactar a Editora Guarda-Mor" (Help to 
contact the Guarda-mor publishers). That would be the 'Assunto' (subject) 
of the message, and then just write the message in English. Everyone will 
understand. Post it to the 'Bibliografia' category.

Best regards,

João Ventura

On Wednesday, January 16, 2013 9:37:25 PM UTC+1, Doug Holmes wrote:
>
> Thanks, Joao, and all the others with their suggestions whom I've answered 
> privately.
>
> Unfortunately, the many emails I sent early on to Guarda.Mor went 
> completely unanswered. It's like they are hoping I go away by ignoring me.
>
> Luckily my Quatro Ilhas volumes had no such problems, also from Dislivro, 
> but I took no chances that time and used my friend Fernando Mascarenhas in 
> Lisboa to procure them. Then I sent him the money.
> I might not have needed to be so careful, but I didn't want to entirely 
> miss getting them this time around.
>
> Of course, my credit card company can't help after all these years and I 
> don't even have that one now.
>
> After I dig up my receipts that are surely buried somewhere after my 
> several moves, I will file the complaint and maybe get lucky.
>
> If they actually still offer those volumes, I might try again to get them.
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>   Original Message 
> Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Genealogias da Ilha Terceira
> From: João_Ventura >
> Date: Wed, January 16, 2013 2:43 am
> To: azo...@googlegroups.com 
>
> Guarda-mor is run by the same people that run geneall.net.. Don't bother 
> contacting CCA, nor DECO (unless you want to make yourself a member of 
> DECO).. You can file something in the "Portal do Consumidor" (Buyer's 
> Portal), but I don't think you'll get much luck with something so old.
>
> Those books were published by Dislivro (you can still buy them at 
> http://www.dislivro.pt/detalhes_livros.asp?Cat_Id=1001&offset=10&Product_Id=492
> ).
>
> Have you contacted Guarda-mor? What was their reply to you?
>
> Regards,
>
> João Ventura (the other one)
>
> On Tuesday, January 15, 2013 1:36:50 AM UTC+1, Doug Holmes wrote:
>>
>> I was recently reminded of a situation I have with a book publisher 
>> called Guarda-Mor in Portugal and am wondering if this also happened to 
>> anyone else.
>>
>> This book company was responsible for getting pre-orders for the 10 
>> volume series of the Terceira genealogy books published years ago by Jorge 
>> Forjaz and Antonio Mendes.
>>  
>> The company is website is this:
>> http://www.guardamor.com/livro.php?id=1436  
>>
>> It looks like they only have the index volume now. The series is called 
>> "Genealogias da Ilha Terceira."
>>
>> They took my money for the books in 2006 and then took my money for the 
>> shipping to the U.S. in 2007, but never sent me anything.
>>  
>> I just kept waiting and I believe the books are probably all sold out now 
>> and I'm left with nothing. It was about $750 USD, or so. And that was the 
>> value in 2006-2007.
>>  
>> I am hoping someone will read this and might have contacts that can tell 
>> me who I can complain to about this theft. It's way too late for me to file 
>> a claim through my charge card. I was amongst the very first to order them 
>> in advance.
>>
>> I'm not looking for a refund - I want the books. I just hope there are 
>> still some out there. Some copies, I heard, were defective with blank pages 
>> and those might be all they have left. Better than nothing, I guess, but if 
>> that's all they can send me, I would also want some money back and 
>> photocopies of the missing pages.
>>
>> Does anyone have the email address of Jorge Forjaz and/or Antonio Mendes?
>> I would like to let them know that Guarda-Mor stole my money for their 
>> books and did the same to my friend in California named David Bertao, 
>> another good Terceira genealogist.
>>
>> Did it happen to anyone else? I'd like to hear from them.
>>
>> Numerous attempts to contact influential people in Portugal have gotten 
>> nowhere.
>>
>> Well, I think I've summed it up.
>>
>> Atenciosamente,
>>
>> Doug da Rocha Holmes
>> Sacramento, California
>> Terceira Genealogist
>> 916-550-1618
&

Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Francisco de Pimentel and Barbara da Conceicao

[João Ventura]

Hi Pam,

Thanks for the clarification.. I'd think they got married in another parish 
in São Miguel, and once you find Francisco's parents me or Eric might be 
able to help you further with their marriage records from Flores. Maybe 
someone with access to the "Genealogias de São Miguel e Santa Maria" books 
might be able to help you further in discovering in which parish they 
married.

João Ventura

On Wednesday, January 16, 2013 10:49:00 PM UTC+1, Pam Santos wrote:
>
> I checked in Faja de Baixo no marriage, but records maybe missing since I 
> have another couple about the same time period with no marriage record 
> found. He was born about 1741 according to his death record when he died 
> on 18 Feb 1781 states he was forty years old.
>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 12:20 PM, eric edgar 
> > wrote:
>
>> Pam, 
>>
>> I have checked all my Flores databases with no clue. I'd check the 
>> marriage records in the freguisia where these births were recorded as 
>> Barbara de Conceicao is a native. There was no mention of Francisco's 
>> parents or his age, so maybe a marrige would have it.
>>  
>> Eric Edgar
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Pam Santos 
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> From the  records and on baptism of their children instance it says from 
>>> Santa Cruz, on the Island of Flores. They had 5 children, attached is 2/
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 2:22 AM, João Ventura 
>>> 
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Where did you get the reference? The "Casais das Flores" book has no 
>>>> such couple.. Nor is there any record for a marriage of any children from 
>>>> them.
>>>>
>>>> João Ventura
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, January 11, 2013 11:05:30 PM UTC+1, Pam Santos wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I know this is along shot but was wondering if anyone had this couple? 
>>>>> He was born abt 1741 in Santa Cruz, Flores and Barbara da Conciecao born 
>>>>> abt 1739 in Faja de Baixo. I have looked for a marriage but can't find 
>>>>> one. 
>>>>> They may have married else where or the records are missing.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Pam
>>>>>
>>>>  -- 
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>>>
>>>
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>>> membership."
>>>
>>
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>
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Francisco de Pimentel and Barbara da Conceicao

[João Ventura]

Where did you get the reference? The "Casais das Flores" book has no such 
couple.. Nor is there any record for a marriage of any children from them.

João Ventura

On Friday, January 11, 2013 11:05:30 PM UTC+1, Pam Santos wrote:
>
> I know this is along shot but was wondering if anyone had this couple? He 
> was born abt 1741 in Santa Cruz, Flores and Barbara da Conciecao born abt 
> 1739 in Faja de Baixo. I have looked for a marriage but can't find one. 
> They may have married else where or the records are missing.
>
>
> Pam
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Sad Computer Story

[João Ventura]

I'd suggest you sign up to Dropbox (use this link to give you and me 
+500Mb: http://db.tt/vhqiAWp).

After you install the program, you'll have a new folder in your computer 
which will be automatically synchronized over the Internet between any 
computers using your account (and where you have the software installed). 
You can store 2Gb of data, which should be more than enough for all your 
research. 

João Ventura

On Sunday, January 6, 2013 11:50:19 PM UTC+1, E Sharp wrote:
>
> I have been accessing my email on my Iphone and since I do not know 
> yet how to delete the previous texts when rreplying from my phone, I 
> apologize that I am not able to delete them yet.
>  
> I think I fried my HP mini when I spilled some juice on it and although it 
> lights up and all but the screen is black.  I have looked at some fixes on 
> google and as soon as my husband recovers from his broken hip and resulting 
> surgery, or my son takekes pity on me and takes a look at it or I might 
> have I take it to Staples to have them look at it and see if it is work 
> fixing.  
>  
> Also, my laptop is not functioning very well at all these days, and I am 
> waiting for my son to take a look at it, and since my birthday is just 
> around the corner,  I might be in line for a new laptop in which case I 
> will not replace the mini.  The only thing that scares me about a new 
> computer is how to transfer all my Ancestry information on to it.  It has 
> XP and I would be going to Windows 8.  I have just figured out how to sign 
> on and get mail from my spouse's computer so that will take care of my 
> mail problem for a while.
>  
> So, even if you have 2 computers, don't ever think they both won't go out 
> at the same time.  I do have most of the information on my backups.
>  
> "E"
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Genealogias da Ilha Terceira

[João Ventura]

Guarda-mor is run by the same people that run geneall.net.. Don't bother 
contacting CCA, nor DECO (unless you want to make yourself a member of 
DECO).. You can file something in the "Portal do Consumidor" (Buyer's 
Portal), but I don't think you'll get much luck with something so old.

Those books were published by Dislivro (you can still buy them 
at 
http://www.dislivro.pt/detalhes_livros.asp?Cat_Id=1001&offset=10&Product_Id=492).

Have you contacted Guarda-mor? What was their reply to you?

Regards,

João Ventura (the other one)

On Tuesday, January 15, 2013 1:36:50 AM UTC+1, Doug Holmes wrote:
>
> I was recently reminded of a situation I have with a book publisher called 
> Guarda-Mor in Portugal and am wondering if this also happened to anyone 
> else.
>
> This book company was responsible for getting pre-orders for the 10 volume 
> series of the Terceira genealogy books published years ago by Jorge Forjaz 
> and Antonio Mendes.
>  
> The company is website is this:
> http://www.guardamor.com/livro.php?id=1436  
>
> It looks like they only have the index volume now. The series is called 
> "Genealogias da Ilha Terceira."
>
> They took my money for the books in 2006 and then took my money for the 
> shipping to the U.S. in 2007, but never sent me anything.
>  
> I just kept waiting and I believe the books are probably all sold out now 
> and I'm left with nothing. It was about $750 USD, or so. And that was the 
> value in 2006-2007.
>  
> I am hoping someone will read this and might have contacts that can tell 
> me who I can complain to about this theft. It's way too late for me to file 
> a claim through my charge card. I was amongst the very first to order them 
> in advance.
>
> I'm not looking for a refund - I want the books. I just hope there are 
> still some out there. Some copies, I heard, were defective with blank pages 
> and those might be all they have left. Better than nothing, I guess, but if 
> that's all they can send me, I would also want some money back and 
> photocopies of the missing pages.
>
> Does anyone have the email address of Jorge Forjaz and/or Antonio Mendes?
> I would like to let them know that Guarda-Mor stole my money for their 
> books and did the same to my friend in California named David Bertao, 
> another good Terceira genealogist.
>
> Did it happen to anyone else? I'd like to hear from them.
>
> Numerous attempts to contact influential people in Portugal have gotten 
> nowhere.
>
> Well, I think I've summed it up.
>
> Atenciosamente,
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
> www.dholmes.com
> terc...@dholmes.com 
>
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Casais das Flores e do Corvo in e-book format!!

[João Ventura]

Robert,

You can do some limited searches on the previous 'paper' version of the 
book in books.google.de/books?id=BwxMAQAAIAAJ (try searching for your 
favourite Flores surname in the 'From inside the book' searchbox.

As John said before, the 'Familias' book covers each individual in more 
detail (birth, marriage, death and children) but only for three of the ten 
parishes that existed pre-1911. Maybe the fact that his work will now be 
easier to self-publish - as creating paper books requires public subsidies 
which are not easy to find in these times - may give him some incentive to 
continue that line of work.. He told me he's preparing the 'Familias' 
e-book in the coming months.

The 'Casais' book cover all the parishes but only the marriage records. 
It's sectioned off by parishes and inside each parish by the name of the 
groom. There's no name index, but that's only important for the printed 
book. An e-book allows you to search easily, so it really doesn't matter 
how it's organized.

If you've got any ancestors in the other parishes, I'd strongly recommend 
this book.

João Ventura
(not the one you've met, btw)

On Saturday, December 29, 2012 3:19:04 AM UTC+1, robertjm wrote:
>
> Thanks John,
>
> You probably don't remember it, but you actually sent me copies of the 
> Cardims, and their related branches, at one time, after we both attended 
> the session Joao Ventura gave at San Jose State several years ago. 
>
> I was just wondering if everything in that book was already in this ebook 
> as well, casamento-wise.
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 5:00 PM, John Vasconcelos 
> 
> > wrote:
>
>> *Robert,
>> The previous publication "Familias da Ilha das Flores", published in 1998 
>> was a subset of the three parishes serving Villa das Lajes, Fazenda (das 
>> Lajes) and Lajedo done in great detail. Note that it is designated I Parte 
>> (Part 1). My understanding is that his original intent  was to compile and 
>> publish a series of similarly detailed volumes covering all the Parishes on 
>> Flores (and Corvo) but found the task more time consuming than he had 
>> originally anticipated and decided to publish the Marriages book which is 
>> normally the first step in doing an extended genealogy (after first 
>> compiling your own family starting from YOU) Fortunately, that first volume 
>> gave me a head start on my paternal side since my paternal grandfather was 
>> from Fazenda.
>> John Vasconcelos.*
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 1:15 PM, robertjm 
>> 
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Can you give me a better idea of what is inside this book? The previews 
>>> at Amazon and Lulu are only of the cover, which really isn't really a 
>>> preview at all. Is there a name index, or is a listing by 
>>> frequesa/parish? Also, is there any new info that's not published in the 
>>> older book Famílias da Ilha das Flores?' I ask, because I remember 
>>> seeing marriage info for some people in that book, so if I already have the 
>>> info from that, would this just be a duplicate?
>>>  
>>> One word on formats. The Kindle format seems to be the same price as the 
>>> Lulu version, $14.99. Though it's a "Kindle" version, there are Kindle apps 
>>> for Android, IOS, Windows and Mac, so while it does have DRM, it IS 
>>> supported by a large amount of devices. For example, I've got a Nook Color, 
>>> which I've installed the Kindle app, along with my pc laptop, with a Kindle 
>>> app. Being that this is Amazon, I doubt they'd ever drop support for their 
>>> formats in future software apps. That would make any sense.
>>>
>>> The problem with the ADE version (Lulu) is you will only be able to use 
>>> it on Mac or Windows. While you might be able to side load it and use it on 
>>> Android, that's assuming you have Flash installed on your device, which 
>>> Adobe has killed for Android, and I'm not sure it was ever available on IOS 
>>> to begin with (Steve Jobs was notoriously anti-Flash).
>>>
>>> On Friday, December 28, 2012 3:33:47 AM UTC-8, João Ventura wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello all,
>>>>
>>>> Finally, Francisco Gomes has published his 'Casais das Flores e do 
>>>> Corvo' book in e-book format. I suggested this to him recently after I saw 
>>>> the website for the book disappear from the web. I was informed that he 
>>>> had 
>>>> managed to sell all the paper copies, and I asked him to consider keepin

[AZORES-Genealogy] Casais das Flores e do Corvo in e-book format!!

[João Ventura]

Hello all,

Finally, Francisco Gomes has published his 'Casais das Flores e do Corvo' 
book in e-book format. I suggested this to him recently after I saw the 
website for the book disappear from the web. I was informed that he had 
managed to sell all the paper copies, and I asked him to consider keeping 
it 'alive' as an e-book.

Even though I own the paper version, I bought one e-book, because of one 
important factor that the paper version lacks: the ability to search. This 
amazing book for anyone doing genealogy in Flores and/or Corvo requires you 
to know the parish in which your ancestor decided to marry. With search 
capabilities, that doesn't matter so much anymore. Also, it was only 
possible to discover details using the name of the groom as the book was 
indexed that way.

You've got a choice of sites, with pros/cons:

- Amazon (pro: Kindle, con: only 
Kindle) 
http://www.amazon.com/Casais-Flores-Portuguese-Edition-ebook/dp/B00AQAOOF6
- Lulu (pro: cheapest, con: Win/Mac Adobe Digital Editions 
only) 
http://www.lulu.com/shop/francisco-gomes/casais-das-flores-e-do-corvo-extratos-dos-assentos-de-casamento-1675-1911/ebook/product-20563362.html
- XinXii (pro: DRM-free, con: +$4.5 than 
Lulu) http://www.xinxii.com/pt/casais-das-flores-do-corvo-p-339506.html

I bought the XinXii version, as I prefer to have my e-books in a format 
that I know I'll be able to open 20 years from now. If you decide to do the 
same, please be responsible when sharing it in your family.. I'd like to 
see the 'Famílias da Ilha das Flores (Vila das Lajes e freguesias da 
Fazenda e do Lajedo)' book be re-published as an e-book one of these days, 
and I don't see it happening if the author only sells one e-book copy.

Best regards,

João Ventura
(not the usual one)

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Translation help please

[João Ventura]

It says 'Exposta na roda pública' on line 8.. Which means she was left on a 
"foundling wheel". 

She was 'dada a criação' (given to be raised) to one Maria Jacinta.

The initial part is the date: 9 of September of 1870.

On Monday, November 19, 2012 5:45:27 PM UTC+1, David Perry wrote:
>
> I've attached a photo of a record from Faial da Terra.  I believe it is my 
> mom's aunt Serafina who was supposedly born under suspicious 
> circumstances.  None of the names in the record seem to belong to my family 
> but she could have been adopted later.  Many thanks for any assistance.  
> David

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[AZORES-Genealogy] New records online: Angústias, Horta, Faial from 1666-1911

[João Ventura]

Hello everyone,

It seems that the CCA has new parish records online. The parish of 
Angústias, from the Horta county in Faial has several baptism, marriage and 
death records from the period of 1666 to 1911. There's a few holes  that I 
was able to see in the early records, but this should be all the books for 
that parish.

I guess we'll start seeing the rest of Faial there.

Keep up the good work, CCA!

Best regards,

João Ventura (not the usual one)

PS: Sorry for double-posting, in case this had already been reported. I 
tried to search for this, but couldn't find anything.

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Opinions request

[João Ventura]

Hello, Patricia

Not sure, the Manuel de Sousa from the 1757-02-06 record is from the 
freguesia of Maia (Igreja do Espírito Santo) in Ribeira Grande, island of 
São Miguel. The one from the record of 1793.04.23 is from the freguesia of 
Fenais da Ajuda (Igreja dos Santos Reis Magos) also in Ribeira Grande, São 
Miguel.

This might be some confusion on the part of the priest. I'm not sure how  
'mobile' people in São Miguel were, but I'd think that there would be very 
few Manuel de Sousa 'somethings', coming from Ribeira Grande and having 
children with Maria de Oliveira in Água de Pau in Lagoa, São Miguel.. The 
record does say in both cases that Maria de Oliveira is from the parish 
where the recorded baptism happened.

The last name Xi?te is clearly also the same.. The 1757 record uses Ch, 
while the 1793 uses 'X', but the sound is the same, and the ortography 
wasn't as fixed before (people didn't have government issued ID cards). I 
just don't know if it's Xiste or Xiote, or something similar. You should 
try to see the marriage certifcates a few years before 1793, for the record 
of the wedding of João Santos 'something' and Antónia Francisca. Maybe the 
name will be clearer in that one.

Best regards,

João Ventura

On Wednesday, August 8, 2012 2:16:29 AM UTC+2, Patricia wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>  1. Are the parents in this record -- Manuel de Souza *something* and 
> Maria de Oliveira --
>
>  (Maria, bottom right)
>
>  
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-LG-AGUADEPAU-B-1753-1762/SMG-LG-AGUADEPAU-B-1753-1762_item1/P59.html
>
>  
>  the same people as the maternal grandparents -- Manuel de Souza 
> *something* and Maria de Oliveira -- in this record?
>
>  (Antonio, bottom right)
>
>  
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-LG-AGUADEPAU-B-1780-1801/SMG-LG-AGUADEPAU-B-1780-1801_item1/P171.html
>
>  
>  2. What is the last name (an alcunha?) of Manuel de Souza, please?
>
>  Opinions are greatly appreciated!
>
>  Many thanks,
>
>  *Patricia
> *
>

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