Arguments and Stuff
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I have been meditating on our heated discussions for the last couple of hours, and have considered my possible role in the conflict. At the moment, I am unsure if I should leave this list as I don't want to be a reason for contention among Baha'is. When Susan said that she wanted to shut this list down, I got very sad, and felt guilty like I was part of the problem. As a Muslim, I don't want to be a cause of grief for Baha'is. For the last seven years, I have tried my best to show Baha'is that not all Muslims have to hate the Baha'i Faith, or disparage them. I have befriended many, and most of my best friends are Baha'is, not Muslim. I understand that some Baha'is have had traumatic experiences at the hands of Muslims, and this can cause bitterness and psychological defense mechanisms for some. I often try to remember that, and be forgiving because I don't think it is them that is reacting that way, but the pain screaming out. But sometimes I don't, and I get offended like a human being does, and then I get defensive. I usually try to be as objective and sin-covering as possible. I try not to look to the worst possible interpretation of something, but the best possible interpretation of something. There was a time when I looked through the Baha'i Writings with detective eyes, trying to find a quote here or there that spoke ill of Islam or Muslims. I found them. I found dozens. But something strange happened years later. After reading those same texts, I couldn't find those passages anymore. Surely, these are the same books, but why couldn't I find them? Because I wasn't looking for them. There is a proverb which states that a person finds whatever they are looking for in religion. If they are looking for hate, they find hate. If they look for love, they find love. If they are looking for superstitions that proves how stupid religion is, they find superstitions, etc. My path is not the path of justice, but mercy. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549433-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 31/12/2010 12:55 PM, Gilberto Simpson wrote: I think Baha'is are only true Muslims. So if Bahais are true Muslims what should Sunnis and Shias call themselves? They can call themselves by their sect names, i.e. Sunni or Shia. As they have not fully understood the Teachings of Prophet Muhammad and have not recognized the advent of Baha'u'llah. Remember that in Quran, some other prophets were called Muslims. So considering this meaning of Islam, Baha'is are true Muslims. And Shias and Sunnis failed to surrender to Will of God. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549437-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
...the Great Debate
The Baha'i Studies Listserv My contribution to the Great Debate: The foundation of the Kingdom of God is laid upon justice, fairness, mercy, sympathy and kindness to every soul. Then strive ye with heart and soul to practice love and kindness to the world of humanity at large, except to those souls who are selfish and insincere. It is not advisable to show kindness to a person who is a tyrant, a traitor or a thief because kindness encourages him to become worse and does not awaken him. The more kindness you show to a liar the more he is apt to lie, for he thinks that you know not, while you do know, but extreme kindness keeps you from revealing your knowledge. (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 412) When Susan BdR left the list several weeks ago, I was thinking perhaps I should do the same. I agree that there has been no real or serious study of the Baha'i Faith on this list in a v e r y long time. Although I'd been a Baha'i for many years prior to subscribing, I was inspired to truly *study* the Writings, knowing I would never attain the expansive understanding of those fellow list members who contributed to that spiritually uplifting and enlightening experience. It's as though the discussions have degenerated into a debate over who is Top Dog in the demonstration of knowledge pertaining to historical *facts* contextualized as a comparative religious debate. He said / She said (nothing). I'm more concerned with the *future* of humanity and how the Baha'is, individuals as well as institutions; might influence in a positive manner, a more universal approach to the interdependent circumstance of humankind. Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549438-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arguments and Stuff
The Baha'i Studies Listserv There is a proverb which states that a person finds whatever they are looking for in religion. If they are looking for hate, they find hate. If they look for love, they find love. If they are looking for superstitions that proves how stupid religion is, they find superstitions, etc. My path is not the path of justice, but mercy. This proverb is contrary to bahaii teachings. Bahaii teachings state that a religion is only beneficial for it's time, after it's time has expired that religion becomes bad for society.We have a lot in common with bahaiis : all religions are harmful to society. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549440-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I don't really enjoy Islam-Bahai polemics either but if someone says something which seems disparaging, it is hard to let it by without comment. Maybe if the group could agree to a clear set of guidelines for conduct (no personal attacks, content should be relevant to the Bahai faith, etc.) that might make things better. You must find the Bahai idea itself to be essentially disparaging to Islam. You must also find humanist views to be disparaging. Why are you on a Bahai list? The Bahai idea that the Quran has been supersceded because the quran is harmful to society is essentially disparaging. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549441-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Bahais never learn
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Bahais are probably the weakest, back-bone-less, and naive people on earth. If you Bahais were children, you would be kidnapped and molested by a predator off the street. You don't know how to stand up for yourself against these deniers?? No wonder iranians and arabs take advantage of you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549442-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv So basically Ibn Ishaq agrees that Nakhlah was intended as a reconnaissance mission. Bahais, wake up already. Gilberto and Matt are just two examples, but Muslims are on a reconnaissance mission here, have recruited others, and are recruiting people here, to attack the Bahais where it hurts, from within. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549443-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Bahaullah had a lot of Anti-Islamic things to say, but couldn't because of Muslim pressure
The Baha'i Studies Listserv A direct reply [to the Zoroastrian Priest] and detailed explanation of this matter would have overstepped the bounds of wisdom, inasmuch as people of diverse faiths associate with the distinguished Sáhib and *a direct reply would have contravened the laws of Islam*. http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TU/tu-4.html __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549444-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I can let a lot of comments slide, and I have, but sometimes it just gets too much (considering the Islamophobia that is current in Europe and the U.S.) I am sure if a Baha'i were on a Muslim list, and someone started saying things about the Baha'i Faith that he/she thought were inaccurate or disrespectful, I can almost guarantee that they would say something. It is human nature to do so. I am always kicked off of Moslem lists. you need a bit of your own medicine. Christian and Moslem and Bahai cannot be reconciled, unless they all come to their senses and admit that all their books are made up by their authors. But unfortunately for Muslims and especially Christians, its had to determine which parts of the text, if any, actually go back to *one author, and even the existence of Jesus and Mohamed has been questioned.* __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549445-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arguments and Stuff
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Matt, Gilberto I for one appreciate your presence here. You demonstrate the best ecumenical spirit, which does not involve soft-pedalling one's own beliefs, but engaging in dialogue based on person to person respect. Two of the Bahai members on this list have not shown that spirit, and this is to be regretted. I am very glad to know that you understand that this does not reflect anything of the Bahai teachings, but rather bitterness and defensiveness for which there are historical reasons, amplified by the enormous volume of anti-Islam material that is now available and which, by simple repetition, comes to appear factual. Sen On 31 Dec 2010 at 4:04, Matt Haase wrote: I have been meditating on our heated discussions for the last couple of hours, and have considered my possible role in the conflict. At the moment, I am unsure if I should leave this list as I don't want to be a reason for contention among Baha'is. When Susan said that she wanted to shut this list down, I got very sad, and felt guilty like I was part of the problem. As a Muslim, I don't want to be a cause of grief for Baha'is. For the last seven years, I have tried my best to show Baha'is that not all Muslims have to hate the Baha'i Faith, or disparage them. I have befriended many, and most of my best friends are Baha'is, not Muslim. I understand that some Baha'is have had traumatic experiences at the hands of Muslims, and this can cause bitterness and psychological defense mechanisms for some. I often try to remember that, and be forgiving because I don't think it is them that is reacting that way, but the pain screaming out. But sometimes I don't, and I get offended like a human being does, and then I get defensive. I usually try to be as objective and sin-covering as possible. I try not to look to the worst possible interpretation of something, but the best possible interpretation of something. There was a time when I looked through the Baha'i Writings with detective eyes, trying to find a quote here or there that spoke ill of Islam or Muslims. I found them. I found dozens. But something strange happened years later. After reading those same texts, I couldn't find those passages anymore. Surely, these are the same books, but why couldn't I find them? Because I wasn't looking for them. There is a proverb which states that a person finds whatever they are looking for in religion. If they are looking for hate, they find hate. If they look for love, they find love. If they are looking for superstitions that proves how stupid religion is, they find superstitions, etc. My path is not the path of justice, but mercy. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:sen.so...@casema.nl Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549433-722276.e949cd65ee3832db6e13381842c92...@list.jccc. edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549446-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arguments and Stuff
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Sen is a liar, do not listen to him. He is an anti-Bahai recruited by Muslims to cause dissention among Bahais and to spread superstitious dogma about the Allah of Mohamed. Sen, you don't know Bahai writings. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549447-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahaullah had a lot of Anti-Islamic things to say, but couldn't because of Muslim pressure
The Baha'i Studies Listserv A direct reply and detailed explanation of this matter would have overstepped the bounds of wisdom, inasmuch as people of diverse faiths associate with the distinguished Sáhib and a direct reply would have contravened the laws of Islam. *The answer was therefore sent down from the heaven of the Divine Will in an implicit manner.* __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549448-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arguments and Stuff
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I for one appreciate your presence here. You demonstrate the best ecumenical spirit, which does not involve soft-pedalling one's own beliefs, but engaging in dialogue based on person to person respect. So let me get this straight, Satan. You state that the Muslim presence is appreciated because they are insisting that Islam is a positive force in society? Maybe over the dead bodies of Jews, Baha'is, and rejectors of blood-thirsty Allah. Futhermore, you cannot be a Bahai and accept the premise that Islam and Quran are today positive things in society. Oh I forgot, you were already removed from Bahai. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549449-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv From: bounce-549420-27...@list.jccc.edu [mailto:bounce-549420-27...@list.jccc.edu] On Behalf Of Iskandar Hai, M.D. Sent: 31 December 2010 06:26 To: Baha'i Studies Subject: Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad The Baha'i Studies Listserv I find the idea of reconnaissance missions, in 624, quite amusing to say the least. I am just a humble. Lowly, insignificant reader of this list from time to time. I believe that the studies part of this list’s purpose has diminished exponentially recently. But I believe that Mr Gilberto Simpson should be kept as a contributor. Gilberto knows and I have with greatest respect mentioned this to him that he should not re-iterate finality [khatmiyyat without engaging with all the Bahai Proofs on this. But of course, of course, he is entitled to continue on his point of view re: khatmiyyat and khaatamiyyat. I have friends who not just for ten years but for over thirty years insist on their own point of view re *seal-ship* and then suddenly open us lovingly to the Bahai Teachings, to Baha’u’llah and this Day of God (Yawm uLlaah). In fact just last week u met an Egyptian of great learning and erudition and I asked him what made you go over the impassable bridge of verse 33:40 on to the Bahai? He replied that for over 30 years! he disputed and attacked the Bahai position with all the “weapons” in his “armamentarium” and then…and then…suddenly alone one night he wondered what was the connection what is the connection of the Holy Prophet’s Marriage to Zayd’s recently divorced wife Zaynab got to do with finality of revelation?...because the first part of the verse is most clearly a reference to that person Zayd etc and the second part of verse 33:40 mentions (Khaatam)… He followed his conscience on this… Further I have had a dream …I won’t mention the details of it but I did dream that a Holy Soul in Islam (I forget whether it was, I ask forgiveness of God!, The Prophet HimSelf or one of the Imams said to me: ** Gilberto will come. Gilberto will see. You have shown Gilberto love. It will not go wasted…) something like this.** So let us all be respectful and continue genuine in depth study. For example and in all sincerity I ask has any one on this list read this book Tolerance and coercion in Islam: interfaith relations in the Muslim tradition http://books.google.com/books?id=a0nToibj6K4Cprintsec=frontcoversource=gbs_ge_summary_rcad=0 Description: Description: Front Cover http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1tbo=pq=+inauthor:%22Yohanan+Friedmann%22 Yohanan Friedmann http://books.google.com/books?id=a0nToibj6K4Csitesec=reviews 1 Review Cambridge University Press, 2003 - http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1tbo=pq=+subject:%22Religion%22source=gbs_ge_summary_rcad=0 Religion - 233 pages Since the beginning of its history, Islam has encountered other religious communities both in Arabia and in the territories conquered during its expansion. Muslims faced other religions from the position of a ruling power and were therefore able to determine the nature of that relationship in accordance with their world-view and beliefs. Yohanan Friedmann's original and erudite study examines questions of religious tolerance as they appear in the Quran and in the prophetic tradition, and analyses the principle that Islam is exalted above all religions, discussing the ways in which this principle was reflected in various legal pronouncements. The book also considers the various interpretations of the Quranic verse according to which 'No compulsion is there in religion', noting that, despite the apparent meaning of this verse, Islamic law allowed the practice of religious coercion against Manichaeans and Arab idolators, as well as against women and children in certain circumstances. And the only thing I beg of Gilberto Simpson is that he should not provoke simple and hopefully pure souls like me by writing *Haifan Baha’is* as in his letter of December the 21st **Naison, I don't think you got what I intended to say. Once you've chosen to be a Haifan Bahai, then by all means, make a commitment to follow all of the rules of the Aqdas and the guidance of the UHJ.** It is provocative a bit and it is not necessary __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549450-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public -
RE: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Khazeh sends with spellings checked this time. Please discard the last one On Behalf Of Iskandar Hai, M.D. Sent: 31 December 2010 06:26 The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dr Hai wrote: *** I find the idea of reconnaissance missions, in 624, quite amusing to say the least. *** khazeh fananapazir writes: I am just a humble, lowly, insignificant reader of this list and that only from time to time. I believe that the studies part of this list’s purpose has diminished exponentially recently. But I believe that Mr Gilberto Simpson should be kept as a contributor. So also should my dear Dr HAI. Gilberto knows (and I have, with the greatest respect, mentioned this to him ) that he should not re-iterate finality [khatmiyyat without engaging with all the Bahai Proofs on this just repeating and repeating. But of course, of course, my dear Gilberto is entitled to continue on his point of view re: khatmiyyat and khaatamiyyat. Religious views can be the most firmly held views on earth. I have friends who not just for ten years but for over thirty years insist on their own point of view re *seal-ship* and then suddenly they open themselves lovingly to the Bahai Teachings, to Baha’u’llah and to appreciating this Day of God (Yawm uLlaah). In fact just last week I met an Egyptian of great learning and erudition and I asked him: ** what made you go over the impassable bridge of verse 33:40 on to the Bahai? This so impossible bridge “a bridge to far” ** He replied that for over 30 years! he disputed and attacked the Bahai position with all the “weapons” in his “armamentarium” and then…and then…suddenly alone one night he wondered what was the connection what was meant to be the connection or relevance of the Holy Prophet’s Marriage to Zayd’s recently divorced wife Zaynab with finality of revelation?...because the first part of the verse is most clearly a reference to that person Zayd etc and the second part of verse 33:40 mentions (Khaatam)… He followed his conscience on this…and studied Bahá’u’lláh’s Writings. Further personally I (khazeh) have had a dream …I won’t mention the details of it but I did dream that a Holy Soul in Islam (I forget whether it was, I ask forgiveness of God!, the Prophet HimSelf or one of the Imams said to me: ** Gilberto will come. Gilberto will see. Gilberto will appreciate the Faith. You have shown Gilberto love. It will not go wasted…) something like this. ** So let us all be respectful and continue genuine and in depth study. For example and in all sincerity I ask has any one on this list read this book Tolerance and coercion in Islam: interfaith relations in the Muslim tradition http://books.google.com/books?id=a0nToibj6K4Cprintsec=frontcoversource=gbs_ge_summary_rcad=0 http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1tbo=pq=+inauthor:%22Yohanan+Friedmann%22 Yohanan Friedmann http://books.google.com/books?id=a0nToibj6K4Csitesec=reviews 1 Review Cambridge University Press, 2003 - http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1tbo=pq=+subject:%22Religion%22source=gbs_ge_summary_rcad=0 Religion - 233 pages Since the beginning of its history, Islam has encountered other religious communities both in Arabia and in the territories conquered during its expansion. Muslims faced other religions from the position of a ruling power and were therefore able to determine the nature of that relationship in accordance with their world-view and beliefs. Yohanan Friedmann's original and erudite study examines questions of religious tolerance as they appear in the Quran and in the prophetic tradition, and analyses the principle that Islam is exalted above all religions, discussing the ways in which this principle was reflected in various legal pronouncements. The book also considers the various interpretations of the Quranic verse according to which 'No compulsion is there in religion', noting that, despite the apparent meaning of this verse, Islamic law allowed the practice of religious coercion against Manichaeans and Arab idolators, as well as against women and children in certain circumstances. But the only thing I beg of Gilberto Simpson is that he should not provoke simple and hopefully pure souls like me by writing *Haifan Baha’is* as in his letter of December the 21st **Naison, I don't think you got what I intended to say. Once you've chosen to be a Haifan Bahai, then by all means, make a commitment to follow all of the rules of the Aqdas and the guidance of the UHJ.** It is provocative a bit and it is not necessary Your loving friend in His Path khazeh __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549451-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe:
Re: picturesque personage
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, that's interesting. Someone from Atlanta steals your stuff. You can't find him. You just go and steal some stuff from a person who is traveling to or from Atlanta. The four months are regarded in a special category in Islam. Nether did Muhammad abrogate the four months thing. Actually many of the pre-Islamic rite and rituals are carried over right into Islam. Besides, being deceitful is not terribly ethical behaviour. Iskandar, We are not talking about someone as though it was any ole person. It was the leading merchants families as a group that decided to expel Muslims from Mecca and expropriate their property, the same merchants who run the caravans. You think about this as anachronistically as you like. It does not change the fact that you are attacking the actions of a Manifestation of God. A Baha'i should think seriously before doing this. Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549453-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv How about Hidden Words saying Treasure the companionship of the righteous and eschew all fellowship with the ungodly. I don't think ungodly really means atheist here. Dear Firouz, I don't think so either. Abdu'-Baha applied this passage to the Covenant breakers. Can you consort with Jihadist or Shia ruling clerics of Iran with spirit of joy and spirituality? None of the Muslims here fit that category and they are the ones being insulted. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549454-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
So you can't go on pilgrimage to Mecca. What's your point.
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا
يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَٰذَا ۚ وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ
عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ إِنْ شَاءَ ۚ إِنَّ
اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ {28}
[Shakir 9:28] O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so
they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear
poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely
Allah is Knowing Wise.
[Pickthal 9:28] O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let
them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If
ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve
you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
[Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them
not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear
poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for
Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
__
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Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv List purpose? Excuse me? What is the purpose of a Baha'i studies list? To continue to hear from Gilberto that Islam is the last religion, Quran the last word, and Muhammad the last prophet of God, again and again, and again? Dear Iskandar, I don't think it was Gilberto who raised this issue in the first place. The list has been disintegrating for weeks and it has nothing to do with Gilberto. In fact the exchanges between Khazeh and Gilberto were the most scholarly thing happening on this list. Is that the list purpose. You know fully well that the list has ceased to be a Baha'i studies list for a long time. At least it was dealing with the Baha'i Faith rather than attacks on Islam. I'm just trying to show you and to show all that the list has been hijacked by Gilberto and his agenda. That's not what people are seeing. What they are seeing is a lot of mean-spirited attacks on Islam on your part. As long as Gilberto stays, I seriously doubt if there will ever be any issues related to Baha'i studies on this list. I don't see Gilberto sabotaging serious efforts to discuss the Baha'i Faith. Well, I tell you what: I will stick around. If you don't like it, *you* are free to leave. How do you like that? Fine, but you can no longer use the argument that I asked Gilberto to leave and he did not do so, because insofar as that is true, it is true for the both of you. I have no paranoia towards Gilberto. All I'm saying is that there has been no real or serious study of the Baha'i Faith on this list since Gilberto has been around. It has nothing to do with Gilberto. There are others on this list that have made that difficult. Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549457-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Gilberto and Matt are just two examples, but Muslims are on a reconnaissance mission here, have recruited others, and are recruiting people here, to attack the Bahais where it hurts, from within. If so, you are likely one of them. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549458-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 31/12/2010 10:42 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: Can you consort with Jihadist or Shia ruling clerics of Iran with spirit of joy and spirituality? None of the Muslims here fit that category and they are the ones being insulted. I did not mean the Muslims in this Forum who are very respectable Muslims. My question was a general question referring to associating with all people in spirit of respect and joy. Regarding the Hidden Words quote. Baha'u'llah revealed it in Baghdad before His declaration in 1963. At those days there were no covenant breakers. Were there? If it refers to Covenant-Breakers, Muslims have broken the greater covenant of God. Are they considered in this verse? Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549460-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Abdu'l-Baha refers to this particular HW in one of his oral statements quoted in Khatirat Habib, and says that it refers to the enemies of God. The phrase enemies of God may include Covenant-breakers, but that's a slippery slope (because as Firouz rightly says may then be used as a weapon against this or that group). I would stick with Abdu'l-Baha's broad statement that it refers to the enemies of God and leave it at that. On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 31/12/2010 10:42 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: Can you consort with Jihadist or Shia ruling clerics of Iran with spirit of joy and spirituality? None of the Muslims here fit that category and they are the ones being insulted. I did not mean the Muslims in this Forum who are very respectable Muslims. My question was a general question referring to associating with all people in spirit of respect and joy. Regarding the Hidden Words quote. Baha'u'llah revealed it in Baghdad before His declaration in 1963. At those days there were no covenant breakers. Were there? If it refers to Covenant-Breakers, Muslims have broken the greater covenant of God. Are they considered in this verse? Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:ahang.rabb...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549460-1092882.b08fc62d23e686946d4de995cae13...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549461-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv And the only thing I beg of Gilberto Simpson is that he should not provoke simple and hopefully pure souls like me by writing *Haifan Baha’is* as in his letter of December the 21st **Naison, I don't think you got what I intended to say. Once you've chosen to be a Haifan Bahai, then by all means, make a commitment to follow all of the rules of the Aqdas and the guidance of the UHJ.** It is provocative a bit and it is not necessary I very much agree with Khazeh here, although I would point out that it was a Baha'i on this list who first started using the phrase, not Gilberto. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549471-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahaullah had a lot of Anti-Islamic things to say, but couldn't because of Muslim pressure
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Good job taking Baha'u'llah's statement out of context! Let's look at the question Baha'u'llah was actually being asked: “Among the Manifestations of the past one hath, in His time, allowed the eating of beef while another hath forbidden it; one hath permitted the eating of pork whereas another hath proscribed it. Thus do their ordinances differ. I entreat the True One, exalted be His name, to graciously specify the appropriate religious prohibitions.” Baha'u'llah was reluctant to answer this question not because He was critical of Islam but because His answer would have involved admitting that the Shariah was not binding for all time. Here is the answer He provides later in this Tablet: The answer was therefore sent down from the heaven of the Divine Will in an implicit manner. Indeed the statement in the first passage where He saith: “The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind” was, and remaineth, the answer to his 36 question. He further saith: “Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” That is, fix your gaze upon the commandments of God, for whatsoever He should ordain in this day and pronounce as lawful is indeed lawful and representeth the very truth. It is incumbent upon all to turn their gaze towards the Cause of God and to observe that which hath dawned above the horizon of His Will, since it is through the potency of His name that the banner of “He doeth what He willeth” hath been unfurled and the standard of “He ordaineth what He pleaseth” hath been raised aloft. For instance, were He to pronounce water itself to be unlawful, it would indeed become unlawful, and the converse holdeth equally true. For upon no thing hath it been inscribed “this is lawful” or “this is unlawful”; nay rather, whatsoever hath been or will be revealed is by virtue of the Word of God, exalted be His glory. What Baha'u'llah is rejecting here, is not Islam, nor the Prophet or the Qur'an. He is, however, rejecting the Perenialist approach to religion favoured by the 'ulama, by Gilberto and even by Manakji with whom Baha'u'llah was corresponding. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549472-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arguments and Stuff
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I have been meditating on our heated discussions for the last couple of hours, and have considered my possible role in the conflict. At the moment, I am unsure if I should leave this list as I don't want to be a reason for contention among Baha'is. When Susan said that she wanted to shut this list down, I got very sad, and felt guilty like I was part of the problem. Dear Matt, Let me assure you that I do not consider you part of the problem. I am *much* more concerned with the behaviour of Baha'is on this list than I am with Muslims. There are a few other people who have clearly come here to stir up trouble such as atheist and one other person who I believe to be a spy for those who wish to do us harm. There have been Muslims on other list who *have* been problems but I don't see this as the case here. Iskandar and I don't see eye to eye on this issue but he doesn't run this list. For the last seven years, I have tried my best to show Baha'is that not all Muslims have to hate the Baha'i Faith, or disparage them. And I think you have done a commendable hob of that. I understand that some Baha'is have had traumatic experiences at the hands of Muslims, and this can cause bitterness and psychological defense mechanisms for some. I often try to remember that, and be forgiving because I don't think it is them that is reacting that way, but the pain screaming out. Your magnanimous understanding is much appreciated. There is a proverb which states that a person finds whatever they are looking for in religion And that is as true as of individuals as it is with religions. Thank you for your poignant reminder of the spirit in which we *should* be interacting with one another. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549473-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I do not think the solution is to expel Gilberto, but the moderator would do well not to allow litanic discussions on the relationship between the Faith and the Islam. Dear Husayn, Until discussions began to disintegrate recently, the recent discussions about the relations between Islam and the Baha'i Faith seem to me to have been the only thing remotely involving scholarship on this list in the last several months. I would, however, like to ask Gilberto to stop responding to Iskandar's attempts to bait him as it will only make things worse. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549474-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv No one would be there over Christmas break. I have left a message on Mark's voice mail, however. On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Tim Nolan tnola...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Mark as usual, has been largely inaccessible. Susan, Have you tried telephoning the sociology department of the college where Mark teaches? Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert - Original Message From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Wed, December 29, 2010 11:06:23 PM Subject: Re: Stealth Jihad The Baha'i Studies Listserv It may be that the college only permits list owners to have those privileges, and only permits people to be list owners who are affiliated w/ the college. No, the problem has to do with the fact that when they moved the list over to a different server I could never figure out how to use the new tools and Mark as usual, has been largely inaccessible. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549225-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:sman...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549470-738796.0f462312a2f7bdde70e0bbead78e3...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549475-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I don't really enjoy Islam-Bahai polemics either but if someone says something which seems disparaging, it is hard to let it by without comment. Maybe if the group could agree to a clear set of guidelines for conduct (no personal attacks, content should be relevant to the Bahai faith, etc.) that might make things better. This are already list guidelines which are currently being ignored. Since Iskandar appears completely out of control I would hope that you will be the better man by ignoring these attacks. The less you two interact with one another for the time being, the better. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549476-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv . Would it be offensive to say mainstream Bahais? That's the phrase I prefer. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549479-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
The USGovernment
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Will level all arab and Indian lands __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549482-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
This is a Muslim not Baha'i list
The Baha'i Studies Listserv You are trying to associate bahaism with Islam in the eyes of the public. Islam is religion of the devil. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549485-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahaullah had a lot of Anti-Islamic things to say, but couldn't because of Muslim pressure
The Baha'i Studies Listserv That is the second time you mentioned the word, perennialism. What does that concept mean? I am ignorant of it. On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Good job taking Baha'u'llah's statement out of context! Let's look at the question Baha'u'llah was actually being asked: “Among the Manifestations of the past one hath, in His time, allowed the eating of beef while another hath forbidden it; one hath permitted the eating of pork whereas another hath proscribed it. Thus do their ordinances differ. I entreat the True One, exalted be His name, to graciously specify the appropriate religious prohibitions.” Baha'u'llah was reluctant to answer this question not because He was critical of Islam but because His answer would have involved admitting that the Shariah was not binding for all time. Here is the answer He provides later in this Tablet: The answer was therefore sent down from the heaven of the Divine Will in an implicit manner. Indeed the statement in the first passage where He saith: “The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind” was, and remaineth, the answer to his 36 question. He further saith: “Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” That is, fix your gaze upon the commandments of God, for whatsoever He should ordain in this day and pronounce as lawful is indeed lawful and representeth the very truth. It is incumbent upon all to turn their gaze towards the Cause of God and to observe that which hath dawned above the horizon of His Will, since it is through the potency of His name that the banner of “He doeth what He willeth” hath been unfurled and the standard of “He ordaineth what He pleaseth” hath been raised aloft. For instance, were He to pronounce water itself to be unlawful, it would indeed become unlawful, and the converse holdeth equally true. For upon no thing hath it been inscribed “this is lawful” or “this is unlawful”; nay rather, whatsoever hath been or will be revealed is by virtue of the Word of God, exalted be His glory. What Baha'u'llah is rejecting here, is not Islam, nor the Prophet or the Qur'an. He is, however, rejecting the Perenialist approach to religion favoured by the 'ulama, by Gilberto and even by Manakji with whom Baha'u'llah was corresponding. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549472-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549489-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv there are the denominations 'Unitarian Bahai', 'Bahai UPC', 'Orthodox Baha'is', and even 'free Baha'i' and 'Baha'i Faith reformed'. such groups and individuals have created their own specific names. and kindly leave the way open to us simply call ourselves Bahais :) http://husaynvillar.blogspot.com/ http://husayntraduce.blogspot.com/ --- El vie, 12/31/10, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com escribió: De: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Asunto: Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance) A: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Fecha: viernes, 31 de diciembre de 2010, 04:23 pm The Baha'i Studies Listserv . Would it be offensive to say mainstream Bahais? That's the phrase I prefer. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:husaynvil...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549479-237092.3be94ed465ba6b97bf89d88057a09...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549490-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Perennialism
The Baha'i Studies Listserv That is the second time you mentioned the word, perennialism. What does that concept mean? I am ignorant of it. Dear Matt, Perennialism shares with Progressive Revelation a belief in the Oneness of Religion, but whereas Progressive Revelation holds that humanity has been progressively obtained a fuller understanding of God's will over time Perenialism tends to believe that the ultimate truth is to be found in the original forms of religion. Schuon represents a European school of perennialism known Traditionalism which includes a number of converts to Islam. This school posits a transcendent unity transmitted from the very origin of humanity and partially restored by each genuine founder of a new religion. The Traditionalists strongly emphasize the esoteric aspects of religion and oppose modernity. The best study of this school is found in the book *Against the Modern World.* http://www.amazon.com/Against-Modern-World-Traditionalism-Intellectual/dp/0195152972 There is also a much older school of perennialism found in Islam which is known as Ishraqi philosophy. This school providing the philosophical underpinnings of the Mughal Emperor Akbar's Din-il Ilahi. It also influenced the Parsi community in India and forms the background behind many of the questions which Manakji presents to Baha'u'llah and which are answered in the Tabernacle of Unity. For Manakji religion is perennial and therefore the oldest is the best whereas for Baha’u’llah religion is progressive and it is therefore necessary to respond to God’s latest Messenger, not uncover the esoteric secrets of the oldest one as Ishraqi philosophy sought to do. Perhaps the best way to get this list back on track would be for me to post the paper I wrote discussing this correspondence. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549491-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 31 Dec 2010 at 16:20, Gilberto Simpson wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I don't have a problem with avoiding the phrase. It wasn't meant to be provocative or insulting. But as an outsider to the conflicts between different groups which all claim to follow Bahaullah, I'm not sure what is the best neutral way to describe the largest group. Would it be offensive to say mainstream Bahais? Mainstream is a good term, since it recognises the fact that 99.9% or more of all Bahais who are committed members of any particular Bahai community, are members of the Bahai World Community headed by the Universal House of Justice. The other Bahai identities together add up to maybe 100 or 200 members, they can be called fringe groups or splinter groups or micro groups, simply on grounds of size. Sen -- -- Sen McGlinn http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com The influence of individual souls is and always will be beloved. For the influence of each soul is its fruit, and a soul without influence is considered a tree without fruit in the most great realm. Speak forth for the sake of God, and spread the cause for his sake. Do not look at whether others accept or deny, but rather at the service you are commanded to perform by God. Baha'u'llah -- Tablet of the Son -- http://www- personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2001/bhson.htm __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549493-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Susan, Yes, I know that most organizations are not. My point was that the single word Baha'i is easy to identify how the group of people who recognize and obey the UHJ. but, well, it is a relative perception. BUPC is the neal Chase's group, rigth? Is the alias J.T. Lamb his? How many members does this group? http://husaynvillar.blogspot.com/ http://husayntraduce.blogspot.com/ --- El vie, 12/31/10, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com escribió: De: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Asunto: Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance) A: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Fecha: viernes, 31 de diciembre de 2010, 07:02 pm The Baha'i Studies Listserv there are the denominations 'Unitarian Bahai', 'Bahai UPC', 'Orthodox Baha'is', and even 'free Baha'i' and 'Baha'i Faith reformed'. Dear Husayn, Email lists do not constitute denominations and that is all the Unitarian and Reformed Baha'i Faiths consist of. The Free Baha'is no longer exist except as a website set up by Fred Glaysher to make it appear as though there are more dissident groups than there are. Certainly the OBF has been around for awhile, though they admitted in court that they number only about 30 people in the US. The BUPC is really a separate cult. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:husaynvil...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549492-237092.3be94ed465ba6b97bf89d88057a09...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549495-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance) (correct)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Susan, Yes, I know that most are not organizations. My point was that the single word Baha'i is easy to identify how the group of people who recognize and obey the UHJ. but, well, it is a relative perception. BUPC is the neal Chase's group, rigth? Is the alias J.T. Lamb his? How many members does this group? best regards, husa __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549496-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv BUPC is the neal Chase's group, rigth? The BUPC has splintered into several groups since Leland Jensen died. I think Neal Chase's group might be the largest. Is the alias J.T. Lamb his? That I don't know. How many members does this group? I don't think any of the BUPC have more than a dozen followers. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549498-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Manakji and the Tabernacle of Unity
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Here is the first part of my paper. Baha’u’llah’s letters to Manakji Limji Hataria as found in the Tabernacle of Unity1 represents a particularly significant work in the Baha’i scriptures for a number of reasons. They represent one of the few texts addressed to someone outside the Abrahamic religious tradition. While addressed to a Zoroastrian, these texts deal with the questions of religious pluralism in general. It is one of the few places where Baha’u’llah discusses the claims of Indic religions. Manakji’s questions were largely formulated, not against the background of mainstream Zoroastrian beliefs, but that of a peculiar school of Zoroastrianism founded by Azar Kaivan that was heavily influenced by Ishraqi philosophy. This school that flourished in India during the 16th and 17th centuries produced the Dasatir, a supposedly ancient scripture written in the style of the Qur’an, which was said to contain the revelations of pre-Zoroastrian Iranian prophets. Manakji’s questions regarding the Prophets of Mahábád, as well as many of his other theological preconceptions are based on the beliefs promulgated in the Dasatir rather than from any authentic Zoroastrian scripture. The propose of this paper is to examine the context of the Manakji’s questions and Baha’u’llah’s answers against the background of Ishraqi philosophy. It is my thesis that Baha’u’llah is not simply addressing questions which arose out of the background of South Asian religious pluralism, but a philosophical school which arose within the context of medieval Islamicate culture in the Middle East. Baha’u’llah’s answers, then reveal not only a good deal about his approach to non-Abrahamic religions but to the perennialist approach to pluralism found within Islam itself. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549513-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Manakji Limji Hataria
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Manakji Limji Hataria was Parsi Zoroastrian who gave up a lucrative career as a merchant to serve as the agent for the Persian Amelioration Society that was established by Parsis in 1854 to assist their Zoroastrian brethren in Iran. It has been suggested that Manakji met Baha’u’llah en route to Iran,1 but this appears unlikely. Manakji departed from Bombay on March 31, 1854 while Baha’u’llah left Baghdad for Kurdistan on April 10 of that year. Manakji took the sea route to Hormuz and there is no mention of him passing through Baghdad on his way to Iran. Manakji does mention traveling to Baghdad for an urgent but unspecified purpose soon after October 1860. He remained there for over a year and it is likely that he met Baha’u’llah at that time. Baha’u’llah Himself mentions that meeting as follows: Thy letter hath reached this captive of the world in His prison. It brought joy, strengthened the ties of friendship, and renewed the memory of bygone days. Praise be to the Lord of creation Who granted us the favour of meeting in the Arabian land, wherein we visited and held converse. It is Our hope that our encounter may never be forgotten nor effaced from the heart by the passage of time, but rather that, out of the seeds thus sown, the sweet herbs of friendship may spring forth and remain forever fresh and verdant for all to behold. 3 In 1864 Manakji returned to India for a short period where he presented the plight of the Iranian Zoroastrians to their sister community in Bombay. He returned in 1865 with additional funds to establish schools for Zoroastrian children on the western model. The first school establish by Manakji was an orphanage in Tehran which served some forty students. Manakji and his wife initially tried to run the school on their own with the assistance of some volunteers. However, their knowledge of Persian proved to be inadequate to the task and other educated Zoroastrians were not available for this purpose. Around 1876 Mirza Abu’l-Fadl Gulpaygani was expelled from his position as a teacher in a Muslim seminary in Tehran after it was discovered that he was a Baha’i. Manakji heard of his predicament and of his skill in writing Farsi-sade or Persian without any Arabic root words. Being well-disposed towards the Baha’is, Manakji offered Mirza Abu’l-Fadl a position teaching Persian literature in his new school and ask him to serve as his personal secretary as well.4 Several other Baha’is came to work for Manakji as well, among them Mirza Husayn Hamadani who was commissioned by Manakji to compose the Tarikh-i Jadid, an early history of the Faith.5 Manakji worked tirelessly to improve the conditions of the Zoroastrians of Iran. Besides establishing educational institutions, he renovated fire temples and dakhmas or towers of silence for the disposal of the dead. He made every effort to prosecute those who illegally harassed Zoroastrians and lobbied for the removal of all legal disabilities. His primary goal was to abolish the jizya or discriminatory poll tax placed on Zoroastrians in Iran, something that was not finally accomplished until 1882, although he succeeded in progressively lowering it much earlier. It has been suggested that it was Baha’u’llah’s advice which enabled Manakji to persuade the Shah to abolish the jizya. I’ve yet to find any evidence that Baha’u’llah ever gave him direct advice on this matter, however Baha’u’llah’s second letter to Manakji appears to allude to the fact that Manakji would soon succeed in this endeavor, for speaking in the voice of Haji Aqa Jan, this letter reads, “One day the Tongue of Glory uttered a word in regard to the Sahib indicating that he may erelong be aided to perform a deed that would immortalize his name.”6 The period of time in which Manakji employed Mirza Abu’l-Fadl is also the period in which Zoroastrians began to become interested in the Baha’i Faith and convert in sizable numbers. While this distressed the dasturs or Zoroastrian high priests, it did not seem to bother Manakji or the agents of the Amelioration Society which followed until around 1930. In fact, the Parsis argued that one could be both a Zoroastrian and a Baha’i just as one could be a Zoroastrian and a theosopher or freemason. When Manakji established lay councils (arjuman) to administer the affairs of the Zoroastrian community, Zoroastrian Baha’is often played prominent roles in these councils especially in Yazd. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549517-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News
The First Question
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Baha’u’llah revealed two major letterss in answer to Manakji’s questions. The first letter is written at the level of general principle and Baha’u’llah articulates the universality of his own claims. Manakji, however, was dissatisfied because he did not feel this letter had adequately addressed his specific questions. A second set of correspondence followed in which Manakji presented his questions once again, this time through his secretary Mirza Abu’l-Fadl while Baha’u’llah responded through His own amanuensis Mírzá Áqá Ján. The letter states: Now, as to his questions, it was not deemed advisable to refer and reply to each one individually, for the response would have run counter to wisdom and been incompatible with that which is current amongst men. By wisdom [hikmat] Baha’u’llah is referring to the caution that should be exercised to avoid misunderstandings and opposition on the part of Muslims who might get a hold of this correspondence. Baha’u’llah insists that had Manakji truly understood what He was saying Manakji would have seen that his questions had been answered fully and completely. Baha’u’llah states that He had avoided going into specifics in the second letter, unlike the first, Manakji’s own questions are repeated and a specific response is given to each one. While on some levels Baha’u’llah initial letter is perhaps the more profound, I wish to focus primarily on the second letter for only this one provides a window as to the specific questions Baha’u’llah was being asked. Manakji’s first question is as follows. “The Prophets of Mahábád, together with Zoroaster, were twenty-eight in number. Each one of them sought to exalt, rather than abrogate, the faith and religion of the others. Each one that appeared bore witness to the truth and veracity of the former law and religion and breathed no word about abolishing them. Each declared: ’We are the bearers of a revelation from God, which We deliver unto His servants.’ Some of the Hindu Prophets, however, have declared: ’We are God Himself, and it is incumbent upon the entire creation to bear allegiance unto Us. Whensoever conflict and dissension appear amongst men, We arise to quench it.’ Each one that appeared announced: ’I am the same One that appeared in the beginning.’ The latter Prophets such as David, Abraham, Moses and Jesus confirmed the truth of the Prophets gone before them, but said: ’Such was the law in the past, but in this day the law is that which I proclaim.’ The Arabian Prophet, however, hath said: ’Through My appearance every law hath proven to be unsound and no law holdeth but Mine.’ Which of these creeds is acceptable and which of these leaders is to be preferred?” Manakji alludes to Hindu beliefs when he states: “Some of the Hindu Prophets, however, have declared: ’We are God Himself, and it is incumbent upon the entire creation to bear allegiance unto Us. Whensoever conflict and dissension appear amongst men, We arise to quench it.”This appears to be an allusion to the famous fourth chapter of the Bhagavad-Gita, Though myself unborn, undying, the lord of creatures, I fashion nature, which is mine, and I come into being through my own magic. Whenever sacred duty decays and chaos prevails, then, I create myself, Arjuna. To protect men of virtue and destroy men who do evil, to set the standard of sacred duty, I appear in age after age. Each one claims to be an incarnation of God Himself and therefore they are all considered one. He then compares this with the Abrahamic religions where each one recognizes the previous prophets but changes their laws. So the question is which schema is better, the one Manakji supposes to be the Zoroastrian one wherein each Messenger deems himself a mere servant of God who reiterates the exact same message, or the Hindu concept of Avatars wherein God is thought to incarnate Himself, or the Abrahamic religions wherein Prophets acknowledge themselves to be servants of God but who change the laws. Muhammad, however, he appears to place in a separate category as one who both changed the laws and outright rejected the revelations which proceeded His. Baha’u’llah answers by reiterating the same principle articulated in the Kitab-i Iqan that all the Messengers of God are basically the same and none to be preferred over the other. They differ in that some reveal a new set of laws whereas others do not. But this relates to the exigencies of the time, not Their own station. Baha’u’llah challenges Manakji’s conception of Muhammad’s revelation but He remains silent on the question of the validity so-called prophets of Mahabad and their unchanging revelation. He also is silent on the question of incarnation or reincarnation in relation to Hinduism. But He doesn’t hesitate to draw Manakji’s attention to the following principle of Progressive Revelation which directly contradicts Manakji’s own perennialism: The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv non-Baha'is are going to require something more neutral. I can't use the term covenant-breaker in an academic setting, for instance. Susan, Suppose there is a small group of people who called themselves chemists, but they reject the periodic table of elements, and they deny the laws of thermodynamics. I think it's legitimate to say they are not really chemists. And it would be misleading to say that real chemists are mainstream chemists, which implies that the pseudo chemists have some validity. It does not require any faith to see the legitimatre succession of authority in the Baha'i Faith, it only requires reading the relevant documents: The Kitab-i-Ahd, Kitab-i-Aqdas, Tablet of the Branch, Tablet to the Land of Ba, Abdu'l Baha's Will and Testament, and the pertinent writings of Shoghi Effendi. The Baha'i Covenant is so clear, so explicit, that any honest fair-minded person who reads those documents -with proper context such as defining branch - would see that the covenant breakers claims are illogical and without foundation. Calling Baha'is mainstream or Haifan, implies that there is some validity to the covenant breakers claims. Just my 2 cents. And Happy Birthday on Monday! Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert - Original Message From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Sat, January 1, 2011 12:15:35 AM Subject: Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance) The Baha'i Studies Listserv Personally I find mainstream Baha'is offensive too. There is only one group of Baha'is and that is simply called Baha'is. Other groups should be called covenant-breakers. The problem Firouz, is that non-Baha'is are going to require something more neutral. I can't use the term covenant-breaker in an academic setting, for instance. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549518-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549520-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Calling Baha'is mainstream or Haifan, implies that there is some validity to the covenant breakers claims. I don't think mainstream implies that. I think it implies that at most these other groups are offshoots. And Happy Birthday on Monday! Thanks. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549521-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 1/1/2011 12:15 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Personally I find mainstream Baha'is offensive too. There is only one group of Baha'is and that is simply called Baha'is. Other groups should be called covenant-breakers. The problem Firouz, is that non-Baha'is are going to require something more neutral. I can't use the term covenant-breaker in an academic setting, for instance. __ But this Bahai-St list is not an academic list. It is certainly a Baha'i list. How others can call us the main-stream Baha'is? Any individual could be either a Baha'i or non-Baha'i. There is nothing in between. Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549522-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
