RE: Pro v Enterprise? (was: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?)
Belated thanks to both you and Dave. -Kevin -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:vviehe;macromedia.com] Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 3:41 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Pro v Enterprise? (was: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?) Dave's right in that some of the items listed do involve other installations, so not a feature of the Dev edition. Sorry I missed that. -Vern -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwatts;figleaf.com] Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 9:51 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Pro v Enterprise? (was: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?) If the Developer version is just the Enterprise version with an IP restriction, does the Developer version support: - JSP/servlets include - JSP/servlet execution - Server Sandbox Security - Application deployment services - System monitoring - Type IV drivers for Oracle, DB2, Sybase, and Informix It supports all of those things, just like Enterprise. - Dynamic load balancing - Automatic server failover - Service-level failover - Visual cluster administration I'm not sure about these. For obvious reasons, these aren't commonly used with Developer Edition. The clustering support is provided through ClusterCATS, which is essentially a separate install with CFMX, if I recall correctly, and it's on the Enterprise CD. So, I don't know if you have those available at all with Developer Edition, since that doesn't come on a CD. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: Pro v Enterprise? (was: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Many other products have solved this by a small change in their licensing agreement. 1. Price the server product to cover 1 Production + 1 Development install for Price X. or 2. Price the server stand along at 5k, price a Production + Development License for 6.5k. The licensing agreement specifically details what can be done and not done on the Development licensure. IMHO, MM lowers the general quality of CF development by asking to get full price for Test and Development licensure of their product. I think most developers and IT managers will agree you need to maintain 3 distinct environments: Production, Test, and Development. And, these environments should mimic one another as much as possible, ie same software versions, OS, clusters, etc. Since most shops are not comfortable forking out 5k/box just for licensing of their test and development farms, they often simply choose not to have one, both, or choose not to replicate production clusters into the other 2 environments. Any of these scenarios places the developer into situation where they can not get a hands on feel of what is happening in the production environment. But, I'm sure MM has heard this rant over and over. /rant Trey Rouse -Original Message- From: Greg Bullough [mailto:gwb;outofchaos.com] Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 6:00 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Pro v Enterprise? (was: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? At 05:04 PM 10/16/02 -0700, Sean A Corfield wrote: On Wednesday, Oct 16, 2002, at 16:28 US/Pacific, Greg Bullough wrote: In doing so, you have not only hobbled a lot of development paradigms where people develop on Pro and deploy on Enterprise Clusters Given that the Developer Edition is effectively a dual-IP Enterprise version, I'm not quite sure how common your development paradigm would be? I'm not too familiar with how CF folks work in general... Apparently. In OUR shop we have several development servers with different OS platforms and versions of CF. Generally 4.5 and 5.0 on each of NT and Linux. We do it this way because we find that running studio AND the server AND the DB on one (typical) desktop machine is not realistic. To restrict any of these machines to 'dual-IP Enterprise version' would mean about 1/3 of the people who need access to any one machine would actually be able to GET access. Remember, these aren't deployed sites. They are development machines which each host a subset of the dozens of DEPLOYED sites we have built and now maintain. In effect, what you're saying is 'If your project is bigger than one that requires two developers, you're screwed with Developer edition. Spring for another $5000.00 enterprise license, or buy your final license 90 days earlier.' Feh. My team have Developer Edition installed on every desktop and laptop and have Enterprise Edition installed on all the shared servers (yeah, I know, we don't have to pay for it - I'm just reporting how we operate is all!). Your team is, I believe, more of a marketing team, building demo and 'toy' applications. A real 'enterprise' project is often going to want everyone on the same development box, seeing the same development database, and running full-out. It used to be you could use Pro for that purpose. Yes there is the Partner program with it's full NFR licenses, but the Partner program has become less palatable over the last couple years as well... Greg ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
RE: Pro v Enterprise? (was: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?)
So has nobody asked about or wanted to do this before? It seems reasonable to want to see how the configuration of a cluster might behave before deploying or recommending it. How do others do this? Is it just a buy and hope it works situation? I'm not trying to pick another fight, I'm just curious how people can learn about how it works without shelling out thousands of dollars. -Kevin -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwatts;figleaf.com] Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 11:51 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Pro v Enterprise? (was: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?) If the Developer version is just the Enterprise version with an IP restriction, does the Developer version support: - JSP/servlets include - JSP/servlet execution - Server Sandbox Security - Application deployment services - System monitoring - Type IV drivers for Oracle, DB2, Sybase, and Informix It supports all of those things, just like Enterprise. - Dynamic load balancing - Automatic server failover - Service-level failover - Visual cluster administration I'm not sure about these. For obvious reasons, these aren't commonly used with Developer Edition. The clustering support is provided through ClusterCATS, which is essentially a separate install with CFMX, if I recall correctly, and it's on the Enterprise CD. So, I don't know if you have those available at all with Developer Edition, since that doesn't come on a CD. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: Pro v Enterprise? (was: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?)
So has nobody asked about or wanted to do this before? It seems reasonable to want to see how the configuration of a cluster might behave before deploying or recommending it. How do others do this? Is it just a buy and hope it works situation? I'm not trying to pick another fight, I'm just curious how people can learn about how it works without shelling out thousands of dollars. To be honest, I haven't played with clustering functionality using CFMX. With CF 5, you could simply download a ClusterCATS installer from the MM site, and install that on top of your Developers Edition. That may still be the case with CFMX. In any case, I suspect that your local MM sales representative would be happy to get you whatever trial software you need - they like selling server licenses for clusters, I'm sure! Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
Re: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
I've looked. ~$550-$600 . I didn't pay much more than that, though, so it's all good. At 06:09 PM 10/15/2002 -0400, you wrote: Hate to burst your bubble but... ..the resale value of that chair ain't what you think it is. Seems the reseller market is flooded with them!!! :P Jeffry Houser wrote: I love this chair. It is comfortable. It is the one area where I decided to splurge (during a particularly good year). And it seemed to make sense because I spend 12+ hours a day at this computer. Once I bought it, my back problems just about all but went away. Although, now I started exercising and everything hurts. Maybe someday I'll buy one for my basement (err... living room) recording studio. At 05:08 PM 10/15/2002 -0400, you wrote: those are the chairs... Glad to see you bought your own Jeff... I was reading a friends account of another defunct shop close out and the sadness of witnessing the dorks trying to cram there Aeron chair into their Saabs... Something redeeming about watching the waste be laid down. Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com 412-292-3135 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:06:07 -0400 Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Just for the record, my Herman Miller Aeron B Chair was worth every cent. ( I'm putting it on eBay in January to pay the mortgage ) At 03:36 PM 10/15/2002 -0400, you wrote: At least now I can laugh that Mr. Know It All but Knows Nothing Web Dorks and the idiot business school wanks with their bullshit $800 chairs and stupid gimmicks are back at their mostly trivial jobs for mostly someone else... -- Jeffry Houser | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] DotComIt, Putting you on the web AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My CFMX Book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0072225564/instantcoldfu-20 My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Band: http://www.farcryfly.com ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Interesting to find some of this out. We are in a position that I think many organizations are in. We've been priamrilly a CF house for well over 2 years and we purchased MX enterprise but have yet to install it because of the growing popularity of .NET . I really enjoy CF and love what I can do with it and how fast I can develop with it but... I think that our IT director along with a good part of me is feeling pressure to switch over to .NET entirely. The biggest reason is .NET's ability to allow us to develop for a multitude of enviroments... Thin client, clinet server, web based etc... This will allow our organization to have all of their programmers working on the same platform thus creating an internal community where everyone can help everyone else out and learn from each other.. While CF is a great product, it can not offer this type of standardization to us. I am a strong believer in CF and will continue to use it for development for my personal business sites as well as any development I contract but in a corporate enviroment where many different applications are being developed and supported, I have no solid reasons as to why we shouldn't switch to .NET KP -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 7:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities. -Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile on me about this one, I'm not trying to debate the CFStudio/HS+ vs. Dreamweaver issue for CFers. Dreamweaver is ~80% of the HTML editor market, and these folks are moving into the dynamic application/web app development space in droves. Dreamweaver MX makes their entry into the CF arena a snap with its built in server behaviors that cover the most basic stuff, and CF's shorter learning curve and tagged based syntax makes CF a very attractive for these new application developers. *We've delivered innovative products that are more integrated and work more smoothly with each other than ever before, offering one-stop shopping for industry leading technologies. This also means that we can deliver well integrated technologies, and better information for those who are integrating these various technologies. But we've also worked to remain somewhat agnostic with many of these innovations; many (most) of these innovations integrate with 3rd party products/platforms. Individually, one may not be positioned to take advantage of everything we offer surrounding CF, but we see businesses moving into these areas as they begin to plan and implement new projects, and bring additional technologies skills into their shops. It's been said Macromedia should concentrate on CF improvements and fixes and forget everything else, but our efforts across the board are not mutually
Re: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
As a Microsoft Channel Partner and reseller, I can tell you that dot NET has had similar problems with market penetration. The big changes in Studio and the rather steep learning curve to become proficient may well pay off at some time, but so far it has been slow to catch on. The multitudes of VB programmers are having to learn it all over again due to lack of backward compatibility and syntax changes needed to embrace OOP. MS implementation of SOAP is likewise not mature as yet either. One hears quite a bit of ballyhoo about pure JAVA, however, its implementation leaves much to be desired as well. As a result, I am advising my clients to be careful about putting one's eggs in just one basket. With the adoption of standards ( depends on whose standards you wish to look at) not being very mature, the entire market for Web Services is going to be in a state of flux for a long time to come, and the vendors seem to be trying to overcome inherent weaknesses with marketing, as opposed to product. I have just taken a look at Microsoft's newest server entry, dot NET enterprise, I can see that giant steps have been taken in ease of setup and administration (It is almost as if they are trying to put the system admins out of business) with features such as built-in SMTP hosting and POP3 features which will permit almost any server to be an email host, without the burdensome Exchange server or other email server overlays. Very easy to set up and administer for shared hosting, and most of the other server functions which in the past have been really complex. The built-in MSDE is going to speed up most any database functions that have been very resource intensive in the past. MS is taking security very seriously as they market their server products to the enterprise, and there are many new security features in the product. IBM has embraced both Linux and ColdFusion on their WebSphere (java) server product, which tells me that CF is not going away anytime soon. Version 4 of MySQL is soon to be released, which will make this database product very competitive with the former mainstream products such as Oracle, MSSQL, Sybase, and SAP. Being open-source, the savings in licensing costs alone are starting to get major attention from clients. That said, the US military, and other agencies have negotiated enterprise licensing from Oracle, and are fast replacing their hodge-podge of FoxPro, Sybase, MSSQL, and other database products with Oracle as a standard. For those *nix aficionados who love to bash vulnerabilities in Microsoft products, I like to mention that as a hosting provider who uses both platforms, of the security patches over the past month or so, they have been coming more numerous on the Linux platform as new vulnerabilities are being exposed. All in all, the client is becoming much more sophisticated, and is reluctant to purchase whatever technology that comes along unless there are compelling reasons, such as ROI and cost-effectiveness inherent in the offering,. For the developer, the market has changed in the past year or so from a seller's (developer) market to a buyer's (client) market, and thus wages are dropping as there appear to be more developers seeking work than there are clients looking for them. Also they are looking for more multi-skilled developers as opposed to gurus in only one software product. Bottom line is that no one particular product will have the easy sledding as they have enjoyed in the past. CF is a great product, don't give up on it yet! This address is filtered through the open relay database at http://www.ordb.org and is virus scanned by ANTIVIR http://www.dwhite.ws mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Kris Pilles [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:51 AM Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? | Interesting to find some of this out. We are in a position that I think | many organizations are in. We've been priamrilly a CF house for well | over 2 years and we purchased MX enterprise but have yet to install it | because of the growing popularity of .NET . I really enjoy CF and love | what I can do with it and how fast I can develop with it but... I think | that our IT director along with a good part of me is feeling pressure to | switch over to .NET entirely. The biggest reason is .NET's ability to | allow us to develop for a multitude of enviroments... Thin client, | clinet server, web based etc... This will allow our organization to | have all of their programmers working on the same platform thus creating | an internal community where everyone can help everyone else out and | learn from each other.. | | While CF is a great product, it can not offer this type of | standardization to us. I am a strong believer in CF and will continue | to use it for development for my
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Sorry to that you see it that way. Perhaps we can change your mind. The combination of J2EE + CFMX gives you an environment that can scale across the full spectrum of projects, from the smallest web form to the biggest mission-critical enterprise application. And you also get true cross-platform deployment and industry-leading rich client technology that is light years ahead of anything else out there. We think the ColdFusion MX + J2EE application servers (like JRun!) combo delivers all the technology that an enterprise needs, and offers critical flexibility than you don't get going with a single vendor. Having said all that, we think .NET is important infrastructure technology and we will continue to offer products that integrate with and take advantage of it. Hence the COM and web services support in CFMX, the .NET support in Flash Remoting MX, etc. At the end of the day, we're not religious about this platform or that platform, we just want to pragmatically solve customer problems. We believe that as you really dig into the details, you'll find that continuing to have ColdFusion in your mix will pay off in the long run. Jeff W. -Original Message- From: Kris Pilles [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 8:51 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Interesting to find some of this out. We are in a position that I think many organizations are in. We've been priamrilly a CF house for well over 2 years and we purchased MX enterprise but have yet to install it because of the growing popularity of .NET . I really enjoy CF and love what I can do with it and how fast I can develop with it but... I think that our IT director along with a good part of me is feeling pressure to switch over to .NET entirely. The biggest reason is .NET's ability to allow us to develop for a multitude of enviroments... Thin client, clinet server, web based etc... This will allow our organization to have all of their programmers working on the same platform thus creating an internal community where everyone can help everyone else out and learn from each other.. While CF is a great product, it can not offer this type of standardization to us. I am a strong believer in CF and will continue to use it for development for my personal business sites as well as any development I contract but in a corporate enviroment where many different applications are being developed and supported, I have no solid reasons as to why we shouldn't switch to .NET KP -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 7:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities. -Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile on me about this one, I'm
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
I can just throw ColdFusion out the window we have a lot of applications that need to be converted so we will be using it for quite a while... What I envision is using CF for quick or small projects that have to much overhead... A great example is a project I am finishing up now... We need to write out a bunch of text files from records sets from oracle... A pain in the a** to do in ASP or .net but with CF it's a breeze. I would like to keep it around for things like that and any flash data work we do but outside of that I don't see it being a major part of any of our enterprise applications. As I said before personally I will ocntinue to use CF for my business and ecommerce sites. I love the product but I just think that the .NET stuff has the edge at this time... For Microsoft orgainzations that is... One decision my company just made is to give up on UNIX and oracle and switch enitrelly to micrososft world SQL server all NT servers and all NET development... The prinicipal is great 1 company 1 development platform 1 programming team that all knows the same stuff But having been at other 100% microsoft organizations I have seen what happens when you put all of your eggs in 1 basket. I think getting rid of Oracle on AIX Linux is a big mistake for us... Especially in favor of NT based SQL server... Especially after we've already bought oracle and set it up and have it running without issue... But that's a separate issue. But the big decision maker was the ability to roll out our apps in multiple formats... If CF allowed up that then it would be a no brainer to stay with CF.. KP -Original Message- From: Jeff Whatcott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:48 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Sorry to that you see it that way. Perhaps we can change your mind. The combination of J2EE + CFMX gives you an environment that can scale across the full spectrum of projects, from the smallest web form to the biggest mission-critical enterprise application. And you also get true cross-platform deployment and industry-leading rich client technology that is light years ahead of anything else out there. We think the ColdFusion MX + J2EE application servers (like JRun!) combo delivers all the technology that an enterprise needs, and offers critical flexibility than you don't get going with a single vendor. Having said all that, we think .NET is important infrastructure technology and we will continue to offer products that integrate with and take advantage of it. Hence the COM and web services support in CFMX, the .NET support in Flash Remoting MX, etc. At the end of the day, we're not religious about this platform or that platform, we just want to pragmatically solve customer problems. We believe that as you really dig into the details, you'll find that continuing to have ColdFusion in your mix will pay off in the long run. Jeff W. -Original Message- From: Kris Pilles [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 8:51 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Interesting to find some of this out. We are in a position that I think many organizations are in. We've been priamrilly a CF house for well over 2 years and we purchased MX enterprise but have yet to install it because of the growing popularity of .NET . I really enjoy CF and love what I can do with it and how fast I can develop with it but... I think that our IT director along with a good part of me is feeling pressure to switch over to .NET entirely. The biggest reason is .NET's ability to allow us to develop for a multitude of enviroments... Thin client, clinet server, web based etc... This will allow our organization to have all of their programmers working on the same platform thus creating an internal community where everyone can help everyone else out and learn from each other.. While CF is a great product, it can not offer this type of standardization to us. I am a strong believer in CF and will continue to use it for development for my personal business sites as well as any development I contract but in a corporate enviroment where many different applications are being developed and supported, I have no solid reasons as to why we shouldn't switch to .NET KP -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 7:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http
Re: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
I have to make one comment here. rant I really dislike DreamweaverMX. I think the interface is nice and its convenient to have the editor and designer all in one product. That said, the software CRAWLS on my 1.4ghz 256mb AMD XP machine and also is a little buggy. I still have the bug where it prompts me that the date of the file on the server is newer than the local. Saving files locally or thru RDS or thru FTP is very slow, even with my DSL connection and ATA100 hard drive. Editing tags, listing files and even stuff as simple as right clicking are a bit sluggish. I should NOT be suffering performance problems on this machine. If you are in fact listening to us Macromedia, you need to fix this product so that us homesite/cfstudio developers can expect the same stability and performance that we had before (or better.) /rant Thanks, Craig - Original Message - From: Vernon Viehe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 6:24 PM Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities. -Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile on me about this one, I'm not trying to debate the CFStudio/HS+ vs. Dreamweaver issue for CFers. Dreamweaver is ~80% of the HTML editor market, and these folks are moving into the dynamic application/web app development space in droves. Dreamweaver MX makes their entry into the CF arena a snap with its built in server behaviors that cover the most basic stuff, and CF's shorter learning curve and tagged based syntax makes CF a very attractive for these new application developers. *We've delivered innovative products that are more integrated and work more smoothly with each other than ever before, offering one-stop shopping for industry leading technologies. This also means that we can deliver well integrated technologies, and better information for those who are integrating these various technologies. But we've also worked to remain somewhat agnostic with many of these innovations; many (most) of these innovations integrate with 3rd party products/platforms. Individually, one may not be positioned to take advantage of everything we offer surrounding CF, but we see businesses moving into these areas as they begin to plan and implement new projects, and bring additional technologies skills into their shops. It's been said Macromedia should concentrate on CF improvements and fixes and forget everything else, but our efforts across the board are not mutually exclusive. We've already released one CFMX updater, and another is fortcoming. Macromedia is fully behind ColdFusion and ColdFusion developers. Yes, there is definately room for improvement, as is evidenced by some of the more lively discussion on this list recently. But we do listen to and incorporate
Re: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
I'm not sure about Coldfusion MX, but using COM with Coldfusion 5 to connect to .NET is a beast. Data just doesn't flow in two directions very well between these. Web Services cannot always be used (for performance reasons.) I'd like to see better integration with CFMX and .NET in the future, not simply relying on Microsoft's COM Interop capabilities. I don't feel like MM actually did any work to integrate with .NET. They just kept their existing COM support. Craig - Original Message - From: Jeff Whatcott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 8:47 AM Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Sorry to that you see it that way. Perhaps we can change your mind. The combination of J2EE + CFMX gives you an environment that can scale across the full spectrum of projects, from the smallest web form to the biggest mission-critical enterprise application. And you also get true cross-platform deployment and industry-leading rich client technology that is light years ahead of anything else out there. We think the ColdFusion MX + J2EE application servers (like JRun!) combo delivers all the technology that an enterprise needs, and offers critical flexibility than you don't get going with a single vendor. Having said all that, we think .NET is important infrastructure technology and we will continue to offer products that integrate with and take advantage of it. Hence the COM and web services support in CFMX, the .NET support in Flash Remoting MX, etc. At the end of the day, we're not religious about this platform or that platform, we just want to pragmatically solve customer problems. We believe that as you really dig into the details, you'll find that continuing to have ColdFusion in your mix will pay off in the long run. Jeff W. -Original Message- From: Kris Pilles [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 8:51 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Interesting to find some of this out. We are in a position that I think many organizations are in. We've been priamrilly a CF house for well over 2 years and we purchased MX enterprise but have yet to install it because of the growing popularity of .NET . I really enjoy CF and love what I can do with it and how fast I can develop with it but... I think that our IT director along with a good part of me is feeling pressure to switch over to .NET entirely. The biggest reason is .NET's ability to allow us to develop for a multitude of enviroments... Thin client, clinet server, web based etc... This will allow our organization to have all of their programmers working on the same platform thus creating an internal community where everyone can help everyone else out and learn from each other.. While CF is a great product, it can not offer this type of standardization to us. I am a strong believer in CF and will continue to use it for development for my personal business sites as well as any development I contract but in a corporate enviroment where many different applications are being developed and supported, I have no solid reasons as to why we shouldn't switch to .NET KP -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 7:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Kris, Jeff said this better than I but I can't see how putting everything into Microsoft and .NET gives you the ability to roll out our apps in multiple formats. CF is far more cross platform than .NET overall. What intrigues me about many of the threads in recent weeks and months intimate that Macromedia's acquisition of Allaire has disadvantaged ColdFusion somehow (I know you are not saying that I'm just jumping on your thrust Kris). I worked for Allaire (and enjoyed it immensely) I was laid of by Macromedia so could have an axe to grind. Yet my feeling going back to the main point of this thread is this is a great time for CF and all of us who have CF expertise. And Macromedia are listening to us! Two things excite me in particular, the growing integration with Flash and the amount of marketing muscle being applied to CF by IBM. As always IMHO. Mike Brunt - CTO Webapper Services LLC http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 Making the NET Work -Original Message- From: Kris Pilles [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:01 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I can just throw ColdFusion out the window we have a lot of applications that need to be converted so we will be using it for quite a while... What I envision is using CF for quick or small projects that have to much overhead... A great example is a project I am finishing up now... We need to write out a bunch of text files from records sets from oracle... A pain in the a** to do in ASP or .net but with CF it's a breeze. I would like to keep it around for things like that and any flash data work we do but outside of that I don't see it being a major part of any of our enterprise applications. As I said before personally I will ocntinue to use CF for my business and ecommerce sites. I love the product but I just think that the .NET stuff has the edge at this time... For Microsoft orgainzations that is... One decision my company just made is to give up on UNIX and oracle and switch enitrelly to micrososft world SQL server all NT servers and all NET development... The prinicipal is great 1 company 1 development platform 1 programming team that all knows the same stuff But having been at other 100% microsoft organizations I have seen what happens when you put all of your eggs in 1 basket. I think getting rid of Oracle on AIX Linux is a big mistake for us... Especially in favor of NT based SQL server... Especially after we've already bought oracle and set it up and have it running without issue... But that's a separate issue. But the big decision maker was the ability to roll out our apps in multiple formats... If CF allowed up that then it would be a no brainer to stay with CF.. KP -Original Message- From: Jeff Whatcott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:48 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Sorry to that you see it that way. Perhaps we can change your mind. The combination of J2EE + CFMX gives you an environment that can scale across the full spectrum of projects, from the smallest web form to the biggest mission-critical enterprise application. And you also get true cross-platform deployment and industry-leading rich client technology that is light years ahead of anything else out there. We think the ColdFusion MX + J2EE application servers (like JRun!) combo delivers all the technology that an enterprise needs, and offers critical flexibility than you don't get going with a single vendor. Having said all that, we think .NET is important infrastructure technology and we will continue to offer products that integrate with and take advantage of it. Hence the COM and web services support in CFMX, the .NET support in Flash Remoting MX, etc. At the end of the day, we're not religious about this platform or that platform, we just want to pragmatically solve customer problems. We believe that as you really dig into the details, you'll find that continuing to have ColdFusion in your mix will pay off in the long run. Jeff W. -Original Message- From: Kris Pilles [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 8:51 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Interesting to find some of this out. We are in a position that I think many organizations are in. We've been priamrilly a CF house for well over 2 years and we purchased MX enterprise but have yet to install it because of the growing popularity of .NET . I really enjoy CF and love what I can do with it and how fast I can develop with it but... I think that our IT director along with a good part of me is feeling pressure to switch over to .NET entirely. The biggest reason is .NET's ability to allow us to develop for a multitude of enviroments... Thin client, clinet server, web based etc... This will allow our organization to have all of their programmers
Re: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
At 09:13 AM 10/16/02 -0500, Fregas wrote: . If you are in fact listening to us Macromedia, Ahem. Ha. Ah ha ha. Bwahahahhahahahahahahahahahaha. Phew! Dream on. Macromedia is perfect. They don't need to listen to customers. They know what is good for us. They will, however, on occasion explain how the problems we are experiencing aren't really problems, and how our issues aren't really issues. you need to fix this product so that us homesite/cfstudio developers can expect the same stability and performance that we had before (or better.) Historically, Studio has had ever-increasing bloat problems, so it doesn't surprise me that when you HAVE to have it and Dreamweaver BOTH turned on, things start to get wonky. Greg ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
What's the IBM push of CF you make reference of?? I assume that deal with Websphere running with CF? Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com 412-292-3135 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:35:44 -0700 Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Kris, Jeff said this better than I but I can't see how putting everything into Microsoft and .NET gives you the ability to roll out our apps in multiple formats. CF is far more cross platform than .NET overall. What intrigues me about many of the threads in recent weeks and months intimate that Macromedia's acquisition of Allaire has disadvantaged ColdFusion somehow (I know you are not saying that I'm just jumping on your thrust Kris). I worked for Allaire (and enjoyed it immensely) I was laid of by Macromedia so could have an axe to grind. Yet my feeling going back to the main point of this thread is this is a great time for CF and all of us who have CF expertise. And Macromedia are listening to us! Two things excite me in particular, the growing integration with Flash and the amount of marketing muscle being applied to CF by IBM. As always IMHO. Mike Brunt - CTO Webapper Services LLC http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 Making the NET Work -Original Message- From: Kris Pilles [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:01 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I can just throw ColdFusion out the window we have a lot of applications that need to be converted so we will be using it for quite a while... What I envision is using CF for quick or small projects that have to much overhead... A great example is a project I am finishing up now... We need to write out a bunch of text files from records sets from oracle... A pain in the a** to do in ASP or .net but with CF it's a breeze. I would like to keep it around for things like that and any flash data work we do but outside of that I don't see it being a major part of any of our enterprise applications. As I said before personally I will ocntinue to use CF for my business and ecommerce sites. I love the product but I just think that the .NET stuff has the edge at this time... For Microsoft orgainzations that is... One decision my company just made is to give up on UNIX and oracle and switch enitrelly to micrososft world SQL server all NT servers and all NET development... The prinicipal is great 1 company 1 development platform 1 programming team that all knows the same stuff But having been at other 100% microsoft organizations I have seen what happens when you put all of your eggs in 1 basket. I think getting rid of Oracle on AIX Linux is a big mistake for us... Especially in favor of NT based SQL server... Especially after we've already bought oracle and set it up and have it running without issue... But that's a separate issue. But the big decision maker was the ability to roll out our apps in multiple formats... If CF allowed up that then it would be a no brainer to stay with CF.. KP -Original Message- From: Jeff Whatcott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:48 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Sorry to that you see it that way. Perhaps we can change your mind. The combination of J2EE + CFMX gives you an environment that can scale across the full spectrum of projects, from the smallest web form to the biggest mission-critical enterprise application. And you also get true cross-platform deployment and industry-leading rich client technology that is light years ahead of anything else out there. We think the ColdFusion MX + J2EE application servers (like JRun!) combo delivers all the technology that an enterprise needs, and offers critical flexibility than you don't get going with a single vendor. Having said all that, we think .NET is important infrastructure technology and we will continue to offer products that integrate with and take advantage of it. Hence the COM and web services support in CFMX, the .NET support in Flash Remoting MX, etc. At the end of the day, we're not religious about this platform or that platform, we just want to pragmatically solve customer problems. We believe that as you really dig into the details, you'll find that continuing to have ColdFusion in your mix will pay off in the long run. Jeff W. -Original Message- From: Kris Pilles [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 8:51 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Interesting to find some of this out. We are in a position
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Yes Paris, http://www-3.ibm.com/software/webservers/coldfusionmx/ They are also doing seminars on this around the US. Mike Brunt - CTO Webapper Services LLC http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 Making the NET Work -Original Message- From: Paris Lundis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:38 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? What's the IBM push of CF you make reference of?? I assume that deal with Websphere running with CF? Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com 412-292-3135 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:35:44 -0700 Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Kris, Jeff said this better than I but I can't see how putting everything into Microsoft and .NET gives you the ability to roll out our apps in multiple formats. CF is far more cross platform than .NET overall. What intrigues me about many of the threads in recent weeks and months intimate that Macromedia's acquisition of Allaire has disadvantaged ColdFusion somehow (I know you are not saying that I'm just jumping on your thrust Kris). I worked for Allaire (and enjoyed it immensely) I was laid of by Macromedia so could have an axe to grind. Yet my feeling going back to the main point of this thread is this is a great time for CF and all of us who have CF expertise. And Macromedia are listening to us! Two things excite me in particular, the growing integration with Flash and the amount of marketing muscle being applied to CF by IBM. As always IMHO. Mike Brunt - CTO Webapper Services LLC http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 Making the NET Work -Original Message- From: Kris Pilles [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:01 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I can just throw ColdFusion out the window we have a lot of applications that need to be converted so we will be using it for quite a while... What I envision is using CF for quick or small projects that have to much overhead... A great example is a project I am finishing up now... We need to write out a bunch of text files from records sets from oracle... A pain in the a** to do in ASP or .net but with CF it's a breeze. I would like to keep it around for things like that and any flash data work we do but outside of that I don't see it being a major part of any of our enterprise applications. As I said before personally I will ocntinue to use CF for my business and ecommerce sites. I love the product but I just think that the .NET stuff has the edge at this time... For Microsoft orgainzations that is... One decision my company just made is to give up on UNIX and oracle and switch enitrelly to micrososft world SQL server all NT servers and all NET development... The prinicipal is great 1 company 1 development platform 1 programming team that all knows the same stuff But having been at other 100% microsoft organizations I have seen what happens when you put all of your eggs in 1 basket. I think getting rid of Oracle on AIX Linux is a big mistake for us... Especially in favor of NT based SQL server... Especially after we've already bought oracle and set it up and have it running without issue... But that's a separate issue. But the big decision maker was the ability to roll out our apps in multiple formats... If CF allowed up that then it would be a no brainer to stay with CF.. KP -Original Message- From: Jeff Whatcott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:48 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Sorry to that you see it that way. Perhaps we can change your mind. The combination of J2EE + CFMX gives you an environment that can scale across the full spectrum of projects, from the smallest web form to the biggest mission-critical enterprise application. And you also get true cross-platform deployment and industry-leading rich client technology that is light years ahead of anything else out there. We think the ColdFusion MX + J2EE application servers (like JRun!) combo delivers all the technology that an enterprise needs, and offers critical flexibility than you don't get going with a single vendor. Having said all that, we think .NET is important infrastructure technology and we will continue to offer products that integrate with and take advantage of it. Hence the COM and web services support in CFMX, the .NET support in Flash Remoting MX, etc. At the end of the day, we're not religious about this platform or that platform, we just want to pragmatically solve customer problems. We believe
The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Vernon, there are probably many internal apps being developed on CF that can never be viewed from the public Internet. We are working on three major ones at present, two for Sempra Energy and one for Ernst and Young. These are large applications being created to replace legacy ones. I am sure there must be other such things going on out there. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities. -Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile on me about this one, I'm not trying to debate the CFStudio/HS+ vs. Dreamweaver issue for CFers. Dreamweaver is ~80% of the HTML editor market, and these folks are moving into the dynamic application/web app development space in droves. Dreamweaver MX makes their entry into the CF arena a snap with its built in server behaviors that cover the most basic stuff, and CF's shorter learning curve and tagged based syntax makes CF a very attractive for these new application developers. *We've delivered innovative products that are more integrated and work more smoothly with each other than ever before, offering one-stop shopping for industry leading technologies. This also means that we can deliver well integrated technologies, and better information for those who are integrating these various technologies. But we've also worked to remain somewhat agnostic with many of these innovations; many (most) of these innovations integrate with 3rd party products/platforms. Individually, one may not be positioned to take advantage of everything we offer surrounding CF, but we see businesses moving into these areas as they begin to plan and implement new projects, and bring additional technologies skills into their shops. It's been said Macromedia should concentrate on CF improvements and fixes and forget everything else, but our efforts across the board are not mutually exclusive. We've already released one CFMX updater, and another is fortcoming. Macromedia is fully behind ColdFusion and ColdFusion developers. Yes, there is definately room for improvement, as is evidenced by some of the more lively discussion on this list recently. But we do listen to and incorporate to the community's feedback, while we continue to innovate. Unfortunately, sometimes we can't talk about everything happening, even in the face of (emerging) competition. But that shouldn't be misread as an indication that nothing is happening behind the scenes. I personally think the economy has stifled some of the payoff from Macromedia's efforts, it's stifled just about everything involving
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
I mostly agree with your position that CFML is a more rapid development tool than j2ee. However, I think when you take a longer view and consider performance, security factors, availability of work force, and most importantly: range of vendor support, the ground rapidly falls out from under CFML solutions. But, more directly to the point you bring up, and why things happen the way they do... In my experience, platform decisions and systems support for these platforms are made at a tier above the development side of a large organization. Often times it is summarily decided far up the corporate ladder. I know in our scenario, the systems folks that urged us to move up to site licensing want us to recoup costs by not running tandem technologies where not critically necessary. You're argument still stands true, but in reality developer departments rarely carry enough decision making clout in most corporate or educational bureaucracies to drive these decisions. Unfortunately, we all have a hard time making this argument, and when we do, we mostly sound like we are just defending our turf. In my experience, solutions like j2ee seem to be winning in the enterprise marketplace as our desperate development teams can openly share code and effort between sub organizations without additional licensure. Since j2ee code is far more easily distributed onto different vendor servers. When we factor in the duplication of effort that exists with some groups running cf and others running j2ee, the fact that cf is more rapid begins not to hold as much water. Trey Rouse Rice University -Original Message- From: Haggerty, Mike [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 3:30 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I agree with your argument that the marketplace is not entirely to blame for the problems the Cold Fusion platform is facing esp. in enterprise solutions. What I always want to ask people who look at this from a cost standpoint is (and I ask this with all due respect): Do you pay your developers to code? Are you aware of the difference in the number of lines of code written to accomplish the same thing on each platform? I support several Cold Fusion and JSP applications and Cold Fusion by far is geared towards faster rapid application development. I've seen CF projects that take two days to complete take two weeks to port to JSP, and JSP projects reengineered in CF take one-fifth the development time. Different developers can have different opinions on what the actual time to production savings is, however, I have yet to meet anyone who says they can get work done faster in JSP than CF. I realize that different platforms have different nuances which are difficult to measure. But it is surprising to me that no one will try to take up cost savings in development time over a year as the justification for running Cold Fusion on top of J2EE. Maybe it is because no one has produced a study or has hard metrics to back up the assertion, I don't know. But production time is an intangible that affects the bottom line just like anything else, and is ignored at one's peril. M ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
I would challenge your 'Deployed' numbers. Your 'Facts' don't hold much water with me. More than 10,000 organizations have purchased ColdFusion More than 125,000 ColdFusion servers deployed The average organization purchases and deploys 12.5 licenses of CF? Where are the numbers of deployment of CFMX? Or how about 5.0+? Are the dozen licenses we own but are collecting dust being counted in your numbers? And how many others like us? I would be very surprised if 90% of your customer base purchases and deploys more than 3 servers, and of those, I bet at most 50% are production. If you expect us to believe this PR dribble, I think some more supporting information is needed. At least a basis from where these numbers are coming from? Trey Rouse -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 6:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities. -Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile on me about this one, I'm not trying to debate the CFStudio/HS+ vs. Dreamweaver issue for CFers. Dreamweaver is ~80% of the HTML editor market, and these folks are moving into the dynamic application/web app development space in droves. Dreamweaver MX makes their entry into the CF arena a snap with its built in server behaviors that cover the most basic stuff, and CF's shorter learning curve and tagged based syntax makes CF a very attractive for these new application developers. *We've delivered innovative products that are more integrated and work more smoothly with each other than ever before, offering one-stop shopping for industry leading technologies. This also means that we can deliver well integrated technologies, and better information for those who are integrating these various technologies. But we've also worked to remain somewhat agnostic with many of these innovations; many (most) of these innovations integrate with 3rd party products/platforms. Individually, one may not be positioned to take advantage of everything we offer surrounding CF, but we see businesses moving into these areas as they begin to plan and implement new projects, and bring additional technologies skills into their shops. It's been said Macromedia should concentrate on CF improvements and fixes and forget everything else, but our efforts across the board are not mutually exclusive. We've already released one CFMX updater, and another is fortcoming. Macromedia is fully behind ColdFusion and ColdFusion developers. Yes, there is definately room for improvement, as is evidenced by some of the more lively discussion on this list recently. But we do listen to and incorporate to the community's feedback, while we continue
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Trey, apologies if I missing something here, but CFMX has J2EE capabilities. I know that sounds obvious but are they not considered to be sufficient for your infrastructure? Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:38 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I mostly agree with your position that CFML is a more rapid development tool than j2ee. However, I think when you take a longer view and consider performance, security factors, availability of work force, and most importantly: range of vendor support, the ground rapidly falls out from under CFML solutions. But, more directly to the point you bring up, and why things happen the way they do... In my experience, platform decisions and systems support for these platforms are made at a tier above the development side of a large organization. Often times it is summarily decided far up the corporate ladder. I know in our scenario, the systems folks that urged us to move up to site licensing want us to recoup costs by not running tandem technologies where not critically necessary. You're argument still stands true, but in reality developer departments rarely carry enough decision making clout in most corporate or educational bureaucracies to drive these decisions. Unfortunately, we all have a hard time making this argument, and when we do, we mostly sound like we are just defending our turf. In my experience, solutions like j2ee seem to be winning in the enterprise marketplace as our desperate development teams can openly share code and effort between sub organizations without additional licensure. Since j2ee code is far more easily distributed onto different vendor servers. When we factor in the duplication of effort that exists with some groups running cf and others running j2ee, the fact that cf is more rapid begins not to hold as much water. Trey Rouse Rice University and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Trey, I just did a very simple search on Google looked for .cfm got 25.5 million results, .asp 89.2 million, .php 106 million, .jsp 13.6 million. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:48 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I would challenge your 'Deployed' numbers. Your 'Facts' don't hold much water with me. More than 10,000 organizations have purchased ColdFusion More than 125,000 ColdFusion servers deployed The average organization purchases and deploys 12.5 licenses of CF? Where are the numbers of deployment of CFMX? Or how about 5.0+? Are the dozen licenses we own but are collecting dust being counted in your numbers? And how many others like us? I would be very surprised if 90% of your customer base purchases and deploys more than 3 servers, and of those, I bet at most 50% are production. If you expect us to believe this PR dribble, I think some more supporting information is needed. At least a basis from where these numbers are coming from? Trey Rouse -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 6:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities. -Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile on me about this one, I'm not trying to debate the CFStudio/HS+ vs. Dreamweaver issue for CFers. Dreamweaver is ~80% of the HTML editor market, and these folks are moving into the dynamic application/web app development space in droves. Dreamweaver MX makes their entry into the CF arena a snap with its built in server behaviors that cover the most basic stuff, and CF's shorter learning curve and tagged based syntax makes CF a very attractive for these new application developers. *We've delivered innovative products that are more integrated and work more smoothly with each other than ever before, offering one-stop shopping for industry leading technologies. This also means that we can deliver well integrated technologies, and better information for those who are integrating these various technologies. But we've also worked to remain somewhat agnostic with many of these innovations; many (most) of these innovations integrate with 3rd party products/platforms. Individually, one may not be positioned to take advantage of everything we offer surrounding CF, but we see businesses moving into these areas as they begin to plan and implement new projects, and bring additional technologies skills into their shops. It's been said Macromedia should concentrate on CF
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
I would venture to say that for every external cf app, there are at
least 2 internal apps of equal or larger size and dimension. That is
certainly true for my organization. We like using cf for its rad. That
being said it is not the ideal or best solution for all problems. We
always work to expand our knowledge of other solutions, in the end cf is
just that... cf. Personally I am a big oss fan. Lots can be done for
free, when in doubt... google.
Regards,
Alexander Sicular
Chief Technology Architect
Neurological Institute of New York
Columbia University
as867 {at} columbia [dot] edu
-Original Message-
From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:23 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for
ColdFusion?
Vernon, there are probably many internal apps being developed on CF that
can never be viewed from the public Internet. We are working on three
major ones at present, two for Sempra Energy and one for Ernst and
Young. These are large applications being created to replace legacy
ones. I am sure there must be other such things going on out there.
Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO
Webapper
http://www.webapper.com
Downey CA Office
562.243.6255
AIM - webappermb
Webapper - Making the NET work
-Original Message-
From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:25 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this
on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this.
Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is
around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're
really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall
installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list
of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing:
http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/
Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world,
the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following
are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me:
http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1
http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some
just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com
We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and
are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when
they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of
too!
In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the
CF
market:
*Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as
makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits
of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered
by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the
Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or
their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of
CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will
enjoy this huge leap forward.
*We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them
be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings:
www.macromedia.com/desdev
*We're tappiing into new markets for CF:
-With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to
CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF
readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities.
-Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile on me about this one, I'm not
trying to debate the CFStudio/HS+ vs. Dreamweaver issue for CFers.
Dreamweaver is ~80% of the HTML editor market, and these folks are
moving into the dynamic application/web app development space in droves.
Dreamweaver MX makes their entry into the CF arena a snap with its built
in server behaviors that cover the most basic stuff, and CF's shorter
learning curve and tagged based syntax makes CF a very attractive for
these new application developers.
*We've delivered innovative products that are more integrated and work
more smoothly with each other than ever before, offering one-stop
shopping for industry leading technologies. This also means that we can
deliver well integrated technologies, and better information for those
who are integrating these various technologies. But we've also worked to
remain somewhat agnostic with many of these innovations; many (most) of
these innovations integrate with 3rd party products/platforms.
Individually, one may not be positioned to take advantage of everything
we offer surrounding CF, but we see businesses moving into these areas
as they begin to plan and implement new projects, and bring additional
technologies skills into their shops.
It's been said Macromedia should concentrate on CF
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Agreed, there are several sites I have built that no one outside the client will ever see. This makes it difficult to create a portfolio, but I'm sure there are as many hidden sites in CF as there are public sites, if not more. Joshua Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:23 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Vernon, there are probably many internal apps being developed on CF that can never be viewed from the public Internet. We are working on three major ones at present, two for Sempra Energy and one for Ernst and Young. These are large applications being created to replace legacy ones. I am sure there must be other such things going on out there. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities. -Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile on me about this one, I'm not trying to debate the CFStudio/HS+ vs. Dreamweaver issue for CFers. Dreamweaver is ~80% of the HTML editor market, and these folks are moving into the dynamic application/web app development space in droves. Dreamweaver MX makes their entry into the CF arena a snap with its built in server behaviors that cover the most basic stuff, and CF's shorter learning curve and tagged based syntax makes CF a very attractive for these new application developers. *We've delivered innovative products that are more integrated and work more smoothly with each other than ever before, offering one-stop shopping for industry leading technologies. This also means that we can deliver well integrated technologies, and better information for those who are integrating these various technologies. But we've also worked to remain somewhat agnostic with many of these innovations; many (most) of these innovations integrate with 3rd party products/platforms. Individually, one may not be positioned to take advantage of everything we offer surrounding CF, but we see businesses moving into these areas as they begin to plan and implement new projects, and bring additional technologies skills into their shops. It's been said Macromedia should concentrate on CF improvements and fixes and forget everything else, but our efforts across the board are not mutually exclusive. We've already released one CFMX updater, and another is fortcoming. Macromedia is fully behind ColdFusion and ColdFusion developers. Yes, there is definately room for improvement, as is evidenced by some of the more lively
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
THat still isn't HARD FACTS. It could mean 4 ASP servers with 89.2 million asp pages in their apps, and 20 million CF servers with X CFM pages in their apps combined. I know the numbers are exxagerated a bit, but u get the drift -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:06 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Trey, I just did a very simple search on Google looked for .cfm got 25.5 million results, .asp 89.2 million, .php 106 million, .jsp 13.6 million. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:48 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I would challenge your 'Deployed' numbers. Your 'Facts' don't hold much water with me. More than 10,000 organizations have purchased ColdFusion More than 125,000 ColdFusion servers deployed The average organization purchases and deploys 12.5 licenses of CF? Where are the numbers of deployment of CFMX? Or how about 5.0+? Are the dozen licenses we own but are collecting dust being counted in your numbers? And how many others like us? I would be very surprised if 90% of your customer base purchases and deploys more than 3 servers, and of those, I bet at most 50% are production. If you expect us to believe this PR dribble, I think some more supporting information is needed. At least a basis from where these numbers are coming from? Trey Rouse -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 6:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities. -Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile on me about this one, I'm not trying to debate the CFStudio/HS+ vs. Dreamweaver issue for CFers. Dreamweaver is ~80% of the HTML editor market, and these folks are moving into the dynamic application/web app development space in droves. Dreamweaver MX makes their entry into the CF arena a snap with its built in server behaviors that cover the most basic stuff, and CF's shorter learning curve and tagged based syntax makes CF a very attractive for these new application developers. *We've delivered innovative products that are more integrated and work more smoothly with each other than ever before, offering one-stop shopping for industry leading technologies. This also means that we can deliver well integrated technologies, and better information for those who are integrating these various technologies. But we've also worked to remain somewhat agnostic with many
Re: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Not surprising really when you consider it takes an asp programmer about 4 times longer to do something!! :) - Original Message - From: Mike Brunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:06 PM Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Trey, I just did a very simple search on Google looked for .cfm got 25.5 million results, .asp 89.2 million, .php 106 million, .jsp 13.6 million. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:48 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I would challenge your 'Deployed' numbers. Your 'Facts' don't hold much water with me. More than 10,000 organizations have purchased ColdFusion More than 125,000 ColdFusion servers deployed The average organization purchases and deploys 12.5 licenses of CF? Where are the numbers of deployment of CFMX? Or how about 5.0+? Are the dozen licenses we own but are collecting dust being counted in your numbers? And how many others like us? I would be very surprised if 90% of your customer base purchases and deploys more than 3 servers, and of those, I bet at most 50% are production. If you expect us to believe this PR dribble, I think some more supporting information is needed. At least a basis from where these numbers are coming from? Trey Rouse -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 6:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities. -Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile on me about this one, I'm not trying to debate the CFStudio/HS+ vs. Dreamweaver issue for CFers. Dreamweaver is ~80% of the HTML editor market, and these folks are moving into the dynamic application/web app development space in droves. Dreamweaver MX makes their entry into the CF arena a snap with its built in server behaviors that cover the most basic stuff, and CF's shorter learning curve and tagged based syntax makes CF a very attractive for these new application developers. *We've delivered innovative products that are more integrated and work more smoothly with each other than ever before, offering one-stop shopping for industry leading technologies. This also means that we can deliver well integrated technologies, and better information for those who are integrating these various technologies. But we've also worked to remain somewhat agnostic
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Heh, I don't argue with those numbers, but that hardly indicates 'deployed' servers. And more specifically CF5.0+ deployment. I would estimate we have 50k .cfm pages still running production that are in a rack labeled 'legacy' ;). Moreover, I think most developers here would argue that the bulk of the development they have done isn't located in an area that could be 'googled'. The real production number of any of those suffixes could possibly be exponentially higher ;) My challenge was to the validity of the specific numbers put forth by MM's PR rep. ;) Don't get me wrong, I'm a long time supporter of this platform, and if it was not for my championing of it at our enterprise, it would have been abandoned long ago. The concerns I've raised are simply the feedback of the general enterprise marketplace as I know it. I will continue to write CFML in my personal endeavors outside of our enterprise, but I have been unable to deliver to my piers a viable solution moving forward with CFML for the reasons I have already put forth. In honesty, Blue Dragon may be the only hope for CFML to continue here at Rice. However the short product life and apparent lack of solid case studies I'm fairly sure will scuttle its future here. Add on top of that our experience with other 'emulators' like Chili!Soft, and I doubt I wont get laughed at for even bringing it forward ;). Trey Rouse Rice University -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:06 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Trey, I just did a very simple search on Google looked for .cfm got 25.5 million results, .asp 89.2 million, .php 106 million, .jsp 13.6 million. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:48 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I would challenge your 'Deployed' numbers. Your 'Facts' don't hold much water with me. More than 10,000 organizations have purchased ColdFusion More than 125,000 ColdFusion servers deployed The average organization purchases and deploys 12.5 licenses of CF? Where are the numbers of deployment of CFMX? Or how about 5.0+? Are the dozen licenses we own but are collecting dust being counted in your numbers? And how many others like us? I would be very surprised if 90% of your customer base purchases and deploys more than 3 servers, and of those, I bet at most 50% are production. If you expect us to believe this PR dribble, I think some more supporting information is needed. At least a basis from where these numbers are coming from? Trey Rouse -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 6:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
I would wager to say calculating this is little in the direction of accurate.. The only true gauges there are as follows: 1. Number of servers licenses sold for new units.. upgrades don't count... 2. Number of user group members 3. Number of subscribers to relevant user/developer publications (magazines).. As far as counting the total pages... I could say there are a lot of bad programmers generally who don't reuse templates... so for every piece of data in the database they have a flat file... Given that using a ? in the URL got you dumped in the engines until Google really, there are suspec to be enough dynamic sites that aren't counted in full... Additionally, some people like to map their stuff to be other things... so CF might be processing .html extensions... Needless to say its a pretty flawed mechanism to try to count as we are... And of course, the hosted environment... 1 box 400 clients... -paris Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com 412-292-3135 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Phoeun Pha [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:16:54 -0500 Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? THat still isn't HARD FACTS. It could mean 4 ASP servers with 89.2 million asp pages in their apps, and 20 million CF servers with X CFM pages in their apps combined. I know the numbers are exxagerated a bit, but u get the drift -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:06 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Trey, I just did a very simple search on Google looked for .cfm got 25.5 million results, .asp 89.2 million, .php 106 million, .jsp 13.6 million. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:48 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I would challenge your 'Deployed' numbers. Your 'Facts' don't hold much water with me. More than 10,000 organizations have purchased ColdFusion More than 125,000 ColdFusion servers deployed The average organization purchases and deploys 12.5 licenses of CF? Where are the numbers of deployment of CFMX? Or how about 5.0+? Are the dozen licenses we own but are collecting dust being counted in your numbers? And how many others like us? I would be very surprised if 90% of your customer base purchases and deploys more than 3 servers, and of those, I bet at most 50% are production. If you expect us to believe this PR dribble, I think some more supporting information is needed. At least a basis from where these numbers are coming from? Trey Rouse -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 6:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
You're telling me... Man I'm tired of telling people all my work is behind someone else's corporate firewall, but if you could see it, boy would it be impressive! ... wtf? How am I supposed to write a resume this way? S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 Agreed, there are several sites I have built that no one outside the client will ever see. This makes it difficult to create a portfolio, but I'm sure there are as many hidden sites in CF as there are public sites, if not more. Joshua Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:23 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Vernon, there are probably many internal apps being developed on CF that can never be viewed from the public Internet. We are working on three major ones at present, two for Sempra Energy and one for Ernst and Young. These are large applications being created to replace legacy ones. I am sure there must be other such things going on out there. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities. -Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile on me about this one, I'm not trying to debate the CFStudio/HS+ vs. Dreamweaver issue for CFers. Dreamweaver is ~80% of the HTML editor market, and these folks are moving into the dynamic application/web app development space in droves. Dreamweaver MX makes their entry into the CF arena a snap with its built in server behaviors that cover the most basic stuff, and CF's shorter learning curve and tagged based syntax makes CF a very attractive for these new application developers. *We've delivered innovative products that are more integrated and work more smoothly with each other than ever before, offering one-stop shopping for industry leading technologies. This also means that we can deliver well integrated technologies, and better information for those who are integrating these various technologies. But we've also worked to remain somewhat agnostic with many of these innovations; many (most) of these innovations integrate with 3rd party products/platforms. Individually, one may not be positioned to take advantage of everything we offer surrounding CF, but we see businesses moving into these areas as they begin to plan and implement new projects, and bring additional technologies skills
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Ok - so there a lot of .cfm sites and pages out there - more than .JSP ... or am I missing something. I wouldn't use a google search as a definitive test (for anything). CF is a widely adopted technology inside the intranet and extranet as well. In fact, the most amazing uses of CF have always been on the intranet - not the public web. -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:06 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Trey, I just did a very simple search on Google looked for .cfm got 25.5 million results, .asp 89.2 million, .php 106 million, .jsp 13.6 million. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Isaac, In fact, I heard Ben F. say at a conference last fall that most CF is deployed inside the company firewall. -mk P.S. - You'll have to settle for screen shots for your resume'... either that or use the client as a reference g. -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? You're telling me... Man I'm tired of telling people all my work is behind someone else's corporate firewall, but if you could see it, boy would it be impressive! ... wtf? How am I supposed to write a resume this way? S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 Agreed, there are several sites I have built that no one outside the client will ever see. This makes it difficult to create a portfolio, but I'm sure there are as many hidden sites in CF as there are public sites, if not more. Joshua Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:23 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Vernon, there are probably many internal apps being developed on CF that can never be viewed from the public Internet. We are working on three major ones at present, two for Sempra Energy and one for Ernst and Young. These are large applications being created to replace legacy ones. I am sure there must be other such things going on out there. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities. -Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile on me about this one, I'm not trying to debate the CFStudio/HS+ vs. Dreamweaver issue for CFers. Dreamweaver is ~80% of the HTML editor market, and these folks are moving into the dynamic application/web app development space in droves. Dreamweaver MX makes their entry into the CF arena a snap with its built in server behaviors that cover the most basic stuff, and CF's shorter learning curve and tagged based syntax makes CF a very attractive for these new application developers. *We've delivered innovative products that are more integrated and work more smoothly with each other than ever before, offering one-stop shopping for industry leading technologies. This also means that we can deliver well integrated technologies, and better information for those who
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Umm... Create a back door into the intranet for easy demonstrations of your internal apps? 8^) -- Mosh Teitelbaum evoch, LLC Tel: (301) 625-9191 Fax: (301) 933-3651 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.evoch.com/ -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? You're telling me... Man I'm tired of telling people all my work is behind someone else's corporate firewall, but if you could see it, boy would it be impressive! ... wtf? How am I supposed to write a resume this way? S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 Agreed, there are several sites I have built that no one outside the client will ever see. This makes it difficult to create a portfolio, but I'm sure there are as many hidden sites in CF as there are public sites, if not more. Joshua Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:23 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Vernon, there are probably many internal apps being developed on CF that can never be viewed from the public Internet. We are working on three major ones at present, two for Sempra Energy and one for Ernst and Young. These are large applications being created to replace legacy ones. I am sure there must be other such things going on out there. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities. -Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile on me about this one, I'm not trying to debate the CFStudio/HS+ vs. Dreamweaver issue for CFers. Dreamweaver is ~80% of the HTML editor market, and these folks are moving into the dynamic application/web app development space in droves. Dreamweaver MX makes their entry into the CF arena a snap with its built in server behaviors that cover the most basic stuff, and CF's shorter learning curve and tagged based syntax makes CF a very attractive for these new application developers. *We've delivered innovative products that are more integrated and work more smoothly with each other than ever before, offering one-stop shopping for industry leading technologies. This also means that we can
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Yea, I should get into the habbit of taking screen captures. :) Isaac, In fact, I heard Ben F. say at a conference last fall that most CF is deployed inside the company firewall. -mk P.S. - You'll have to settle for screen shots for your resume'... either that or use the client as a reference g. -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? You're telling me... Man I'm tired of telling people all my work is behind someone else's corporate firewall, but if you could see it, boy would it be impressive! ... wtf? How am I supposed to write a resume this way? S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 Agreed, there are several sites I have built that no one outside the client will ever see. This makes it difficult to create a portfolio, but I'm sure there are as many hidden sites in CF as there are public sites, if not more. Joshua Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:23 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Vernon, there are probably many internal apps being developed on CF that can never be viewed from the public Internet. We are working on three major ones at present, two for Sempra Energy and one for Ernst and Young. These are large applications being created to replace legacy ones. I am sure there must be other such things going on out there. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities. -Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile on me about this one, I'm not trying to debate the CFStudio/HS+ vs. Dreamweaver issue for CFers. Dreamweaver is ~80% of the HTML editor market, and these folks are moving into the dynamic application/web app development space in droves. Dreamweaver MX makes their entry into the CF arena a snap with its built in server behaviors that cover the most basic stuff, and CF's shorter learning curve and tagged based syntax makes CF a very attractive for these new application developers. *We've delivered innovative products that are more integrated and work more smoothly with each other than ever before, offering one-stop shopping for industry leading technologies. This also means that we
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
As the nun said in the fabric store, ..that would make a good habit. -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Yea, I should get into the habbit of taking screen captures. :) Isaac, In fact, I heard Ben F. say at a conference last fall that most CF is deployed inside the company firewall. -mk P.S. - You'll have to settle for screen shots for your resume'... either that or use the client as a reference g. -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? You're telling me... Man I'm tired of telling people all my work is behind someone else's corporate firewall, but if you could see it, boy would it be impressive! ... wtf? How am I supposed to write a resume this way? S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 Agreed, there are several sites I have built that no one outside the client will ever see. This makes it difficult to create a portfolio, but I'm sure there are as many hidden sites in CF as there are public sites, if not more. Joshua Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:23 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Vernon, there are probably many internal apps being developed on CF that can never be viewed from the public Internet. We are working on three major ones at present, two for Sempra Energy and one for Ernst and Young. These are large applications being created to replace legacy ones. I am sure there must be other such things going on out there. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities. -Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile on me about this one, I'm not trying to debate the CFStudio/HS+ vs. Dreamweaver issue for CFers. Dreamweaver is ~80% of the HTML editor market, and these folks are moving into the dynamic application/web app development space in droves. Dreamweaver MX makes their entry into the CF arena a snap with its built in server behaviors that cover the most basic stuff, and CF's shorter learning curve and tagged
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Damned integrity... It's a curse. :) Actually, I have a congenital disorder which makes it practically impossible for me to do anything deceitful... I break out in hives and stuff, so it's painfully obvious that I'm trying to do something outside my nature. :) What happened to you? Poison Ivy? Umm... yea, I went camping ... ... What happened to him... Camping! I went camping! S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 Umm... Create a back door into the intranet for easy demonstrations of your internal apps? 8^) -- Mosh Teitelbaum evoch, LLC Tel: (301) 625-9191 Fax: (301) 933-3651 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.evoch.com/ -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? You're telling me... Man I'm tired of telling people all my work is behind someone else's corporate firewall, but if you could see it, boy would it be impressive! ... wtf? How am I supposed to write a resume this way? S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 Agreed, there are several sites I have built that no one outside the client will ever see. This makes it difficult to create a portfolio, but I'm sure there are as many hidden sites in CF as there are public sites, if not more. Joshua Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:23 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Vernon, there are probably many internal apps being developed on CF that can never be viewed from the public Internet. We are working on three major ones at present, two for Sempra Energy and one for Ernst and Young. These are large applications being created to replace legacy ones. I am sure there must be other such things going on out there. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities. -Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile on me about this one, I'm not trying to debate the CFStudio/HS+ vs. Dreamweaver issue for CFers. Dreamweaver is ~80% of the HTML editor market, and these folks are moving into the dynamic application/web app
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Maybe I take the wrong approach, but I keep the code and test data and run it on my laptop for interviews. =) I have to skirt a few things that would be a clear breach of non-disclosure, but in general you can demo key components with minor tweaking to avoid confidentiality issues. Here are some samples of what I can do... *click* *click*. For resume's I speak in the abstract and indicate I can share a portfolio at an interview. Trey Rouse -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Yea, I should get into the habbit of taking screen captures. :) Isaac, In fact, I heard Ben F. say at a conference last fall that most CF is deployed inside the company firewall. -mk P.S. - You'll have to settle for screen shots for your resume'... either that or use the client as a reference g. -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? You're telling me... Man I'm tired of telling people all my work is behind someone else's corporate firewall, but if you could see it, boy would it be impressive! ... wtf? How am I supposed to write a resume this way? S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 Agreed, there are several sites I have built that no one outside the client will ever see. This makes it difficult to create a portfolio, but I'm sure there are as many hidden sites in CF as there are public sites, if not more. Joshua Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:23 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Vernon, there are probably many internal apps being developed on CF that can never be viewed from the public Internet. We are working on three major ones at present, two for Sempra Energy and one for Ernst and Young. These are large applications being created to replace legacy ones. I am sure there must be other such things going on out there. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Yeah, this is a tough issue. Personally, I can't really show anything I have done internally because it is all protected by strict NDA and copyright. Screen shots and descriptions that are too detailed are technically forbidden by some NDAs. It is a very delicate topic, easy to get yourself sued. -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:33 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Maybe I take the wrong approach, but I keep the code and test data and run it on my laptop for interviews. =) I have to skirt a few things that would be a clear breach of non-disclosure, but in general you can demo key components with minor tweaking to avoid confidentiality issues. Here are some samples of what I can do... *click* *click*. For resume's I speak in the abstract and indicate I can share a portfolio at an interview. Trey Rouse -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Yea, I should get into the habbit of taking screen captures. :) Isaac, In fact, I heard Ben F. say at a conference last fall that most CF is deployed inside the company firewall. -mk P.S. - You'll have to settle for screen shots for your resume'... either that or use the client as a reference g. -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? You're telling me... Man I'm tired of telling people all my work is behind someone else's corporate firewall, but if you could see it, boy would it be impressive! ... wtf? How am I supposed to write a resume this way? S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 Agreed, there are several sites I have built that no one outside the client will ever see. This makes it difficult to create a portfolio, but I'm sure there are as many hidden sites in CF as there are public sites, if not more. Joshua Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:23 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Vernon, there are probably many internal apps being developed on CF that can never be viewed from the public Internet. We are working on three major ones at present, two for Sempra Energy and one for Ernst and Young. These are large applications being created to replace legacy ones. I am sure there must be other such things going on out there. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
This is an evolving industry, no doubt. We recognize the trend of decision making moving up the chain from developers to IT managers, and there we've got resources devoted to communicating the CF story with those folks in ways meaningful to them - but my area is here in the developer community. Our approach has been to create new opportunities for organizations to use ColdFusion and ColdFusion developers, but at the same time, to continue to support the existing CF market. There will always shifts in who's using what, and with that, job opportunities sometimes move around. I know that's little comfort to anyone who has to look for a new job, but I think the direction we're going is on track for success in expanding opportunities in the aggregate for all involved with ColdFusion. Vernon Viehe ColdFusion Community Manager Developer Relations Macromedia, Inc. Online diary: http://vvmx.blogspot.com/ Macromedia DevCon 2002, October 27-30, Orlando, Florida Architecting a New Internet Experience Register today at www.macromedia.com/go/devcon2002 -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:38 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I mostly agree with your position that CFML is a more rapid development tool than j2ee. However, I think when you take a longer view and consider performance, security factors, availability of work force, and most importantly: range of vendor support, the ground rapidly falls out from under CFML solutions. But, more directly to the point you bring up, and why things happen the way they do... In my experience, platform decisions and systems support for these platforms are made at a tier above the development side of a large organization. Often times it is summarily decided far up the corporate ladder. I know in our scenario, the systems folks that urged us to move up to site licensing want us to recoup costs by not running tandem technologies where not critically necessary. You're argument still stands true, but in reality developer departments rarely carry enough decision making clout in most corporate or educational bureaucracies to drive these decisions. Unfortunately, we all have a hard time making this argument, and when we do, we mostly sound like we are just defending our turf. In my experience, solutions like j2ee seem to be winning in the enterprise marketplace as our desperate development teams can openly share code and effort between sub organizations without additional licensure. Since j2ee code is far more easily distributed onto different vendor servers. When we factor in the duplication of effort that exists with some groups running cf and others running j2ee, the fact that cf is more rapid begins not to hold as much water. Trey Rouse Rice University -Original Message- From: Haggerty, Mike [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 3:30 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I agree with your argument that the marketplace is not entirely to blame for the problems the Cold Fusion platform is facing esp. in enterprise solutions. What I always want to ask people who look at this from a cost standpoint is (and I ask this with all due respect): Do you pay your developers to code? Are you aware of the difference in the number of lines of code written to accomplish the same thing on each platform? I support several Cold Fusion and JSP applications and Cold Fusion by far is geared towards faster rapid application development. I've seen CF projects that take two days to complete take two weeks to port to JSP, and JSP projects reengineered in CF take one-fifth the development time. Different developers can have different opinions on what the actual time to production savings is, however, I have yet to meet anyone who says they can get work done faster in JSP than CF. I realize that different platforms have different nuances which are difficult to measure. But it is surprising to me that no one will try to take up cost savings in development time over a year as the justification for running Cold Fusion on top of J2EE. Maybe it is because no one has produced a study or has hard metrics to back up the assertion, I don't know. But production time is an intangible that affects the bottom line just like anything else, and is ignored at one's peril. M ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
Re: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
There are also uses for CF that are more properly called Utility or Application Support programs. Examples of this are: 1) Using CF to write a general-purpose SQL client that can be used by developers and by end-users for ad hoc database manipulation -- you can put a secure, non-destructive, easy-to-use SQL tool in the hands of end users. 2) Data analysis - as part of the development process it is often necessary to analyze a client's existing offline database to determine the needs and optimum design of the online database, 3) Using CF to try different database/application design alternatives. 4) Once a database design has been determined, using CF to create and populate the online database from the client's offline database -- validating, restructuring and normalizing the data as part of the conversion process. 5) Using CF to prototype a client's application without expending a lot of resources. All of these share the characteristic of infrequent, or incidental use -- and aren't really considered production applications. Because of its powerful database (and data) manipulation capability and the ease with which you can create programs, CF is a superior tool for the above. Dick On Wednesday, October 16, 2002, at 12:14 PM, Mark A. Kruger - CFG wrote: Ok - so there a lot of .cfm sites and pages out there - more than .JSP ... or am I missing something. I wouldn't use a google search as a definitive test (for anything). CF is a widely adopted technology inside the intranet and extranet as well. In fact, the most amazing uses of CF have always been on the intranet - not the public web. -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:06 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Trey, I just did a very simple search on Google looked for .cfm got 25.5 million results, .asp 89.2 million, .php 106 million, .jsp 13.6 million. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Damned integrity... It's a curse. :) Yeah, I hear that can be tough to live with. 8^) -- Mosh Teitelbaum evoch, LLC Tel: (301) 625-9191 Fax: (301) 933-3651 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.evoch.com/ ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
This whole 'Hidden CF Factor' sort of reminds me of 'Wagner's music is better than it sounds' or perhaps 'Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.' What hogwash! Basic statistics tell us that there is probably as much 'hidden' (read: 'intranet') ASP, PHP, and J2EE, proportionately, as their is CF. On the other hand if MM *insists* that CF is 'more pervasive than the visible penetration would indicate' then that puts the lie to what Allaire and MM have said all along...that CF is eminently suitable for high-volume sites in which usage patterns are unpredictable. In all, they can't have it both ways, now can they? :-) Greg ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Huh?! That makes no sense whatsoever. How does being eminently suitable for high-volume sites in any way negate the reality that it's widely used for internal applications? And, of course, internal apps are frequently far, far more data intensive than public sites and are heavily trafficked to boot. Ken -Original Message- From: Greg Bullough [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? This whole 'Hidden CF Factor' sort of reminds me of 'Wagner's music is better than it sounds' or perhaps 'Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.' What hogwash! Basic statistics tell us that there is probably as much 'hidden' (read: 'intranet') ASP, PHP, and J2EE, proportionately, as their is CF. On the other hand if MM *insists* that CF is 'more pervasive than the visible penetration would indicate' then that puts the lie to what Allaire and MM have said all along...that CF is eminently suitable for high-volume sites in which usage patterns are unpredictable. In all, they can't have it both ways, now can they? :-) Greg ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Helps to live in a state with very strong 'right to work' laws. I don't sweat it as long as I'm demonstrating functionality I was solely responsible for creating. Now if I was working off a clear functionality spec from a client, then I tend not to show that code ;). But like I said, enter at your own risk. -Original Message- From: Weaver, Anthony [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Yeah, this is a tough issue. Personally, I can't really show anything I have done internally because it is all protected by strict NDA and copyright. Screen shots and descriptions that are too detailed are technically forbidden by some NDAs. It is a very delicate topic, easy to get yourself sued. -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:33 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Maybe I take the wrong approach, but I keep the code and test data and run it on my laptop for interviews. =) I have to skirt a few things that would be a clear breach of non-disclosure, but in general you can demo key components with minor tweaking to avoid confidentiality issues. Here are some samples of what I can do... *click* *click*. For resume's I speak in the abstract and indicate I can share a portfolio at an interview. Trey Rouse -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Yea, I should get into the habbit of taking screen captures. :) Isaac, In fact, I heard Ben F. say at a conference last fall that most CF is deployed inside the company firewall. -mk P.S. - You'll have to settle for screen shots for your resume'... either that or use the client as a reference g. -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? You're telling me... Man I'm tired of telling people all my work is behind someone else's corporate firewall, but if you could see it, boy would it be impressive! ... wtf? How am I supposed to write a resume this way? S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 Agreed, there are several sites I have built that no one outside the client will ever see. This makes it difficult to create a portfolio, but I'm sure there are as many hidden sites in CF as there are public sites, if not more. Joshua Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:23 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Vernon, there are probably many internal apps being developed on CF that can never be viewed from the public Internet. We are working on three major ones at present, two for Sempra Energy and one for Ernst and Young. These are large applications being created to replace legacy ones. I am sure there must be other such things going on out there. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX
PLEASE END THIS (RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?)
mike d. time for this to move to the cf community list ive tried to restrain, as long as I could. this isnt code based, nor is it relevant to anyone here. this is a place for code fixes, and work arounds and tips etcnot opinionswe all have those, just like we all have.. im sick of reading this CRAP. later. ..tony Tony Weeg Senior Web Developer Information System Design Navtrak, Inc. Fleet Management Solutions www.navtrak.net 410.548.2337 -Original Message- From: Ken Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:24 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Huh?! That makes no sense whatsoever. How does being eminently suitable for high-volume sites in any way negate the reality that it's widely used for internal applications? And, of course, internal apps are frequently far, far more data intensive than public sites and are heavily trafficked to boot. Ken -Original Message- From: Greg Bullough [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? This whole 'Hidden CF Factor' sort of reminds me of 'Wagner's music is better than it sounds' or perhaps 'Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.' What hogwash! Basic statistics tell us that there is probably as much 'hidden' (read: 'intranet') ASP, PHP, and J2EE, proportionately, as their is CF. On the other hand if MM *insists* that CF is 'more pervasive than the visible penetration would indicate' then that puts the lie to what Allaire and MM have said all along...that CF is eminently suitable for high-volume sites in which usage patterns are unpredictable. In all, they can't have it both ways, now can they? :-) Greg ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
A Yankee Group report from Oct 2001 (AFAIK it's the latest on the topic) lists CF as the #2 platform used in IT infrastructure/intranet applications. As for increasing the attractiveness of ColdFusion for high-volume large enterprise sites, we think we've taken a big leap forward on that by recently releasing CFMX for J2EE so that both existing and new CF apps can be scaled as a business's needs grow. IBM is marketing this to its customers, in addition to the other flavors of it which are available. Vernon Viehe ColdFusion Community Manager Developer Relations Macromedia, Inc. Online diary: http://vvmx.blogspot.com/ Macromedia DevCon 2002, October 27-30, Orlando, Florida Architecting a New Internet Experience Register today at www.macromedia.com/go/devcon2002 -Original Message- From: Ken Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:24 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Huh?! That makes no sense whatsoever. How does being eminently suitable for high-volume sites in any way negate the reality that it's widely used for internal applications? And, of course, internal apps are frequently far, far more data intensive than public sites and are heavily trafficked to boot. Ken -Original Message- From: Greg Bullough [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? This whole 'Hidden CF Factor' sort of reminds me of 'Wagner's music is better than it sounds' or perhaps 'Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.' What hogwash! Basic statistics tell us that there is probably as much 'hidden' (read: 'intranet') ASP, PHP, and J2EE, proportionately, as their is CF. On the other hand if MM *insists* that CF is 'more pervasive than the visible penetration would indicate' then that puts the lie to what Allaire and MM have said all along...that CF is eminently suitable for high-volume sites in which usage patterns are unpredictable. In all, they can't have it both ways, now can they? :-) Greg ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
Re: PLEASE END THIS (RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?)
then dont read it :) - Original Message - From: Tony Weeg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:37 PM Subject: PLEASE END THIS (RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?) mike d. time for this to move to the cf community list ive tried to restrain, as long as I could. this isnt code based, nor is it relevant to anyone here. this is a place for code fixes, and work arounds and tips etcnot opinionswe all have those, just like we all have.. im sick of reading this CRAP. later. ..tony Tony Weeg Senior Web Developer Information System Design Navtrak, Inc. Fleet Management Solutions www.navtrak.net 410.548.2337 -Original Message- From: Ken Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:24 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Huh?! That makes no sense whatsoever. How does being eminently suitable for high-volume sites in any way negate the reality that it's widely used for internal applications? And, of course, internal apps are frequently far, far more data intensive than public sites and are heavily trafficked to boot. Ken -Original Message- From: Greg Bullough [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? This whole 'Hidden CF Factor' sort of reminds me of 'Wagner's music is better than it sounds' or perhaps 'Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.' What hogwash! Basic statistics tell us that there is probably as much 'hidden' (read: 'intranet') ASP, PHP, and J2EE, proportionately, as their is CF. On the other hand if MM *insists* that CF is 'more pervasive than the visible penetration would indicate' then that puts the lie to what Allaire and MM have said all along...that CF is eminently suitable for high-volume sites in which usage patterns are unpredictable. In all, they can't have it both ways, now can they? :-) Greg ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
RE: PLEASE END THIS (RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?)
Actually this thread kind of interests me. My company is still doing large ammounts of CF work so I find myself somewhat emmersed in CF only apps, and end up oblivious to the differences in it and other languaes (shortcoming / advantages etc). CF does everything I need / want it to do now and forseeabley in the near future and rather well I might add. Like most other Web Developers I have the obligatory few years of ASP, VB, PHP experience (havent really been able to delve into .NET yet) and I still find that CF is the most useful in the majority of my projects. Besides, this thread has been about the different thingt languages can / cant do well / not very well, and imo are applicable to this list. If this list were supposed to be about code only then there would be no debates on code efficiency / standards / best practices and quite frankly I would not get as much out of it. Delete = 1 keystroke, by no means a large task for the very capable developers on this list ;) -chris.alvarado [ application developer ] 4 Guys Interactive, Inc. http://www.4guys.com We create websites that make you a hero. -Original Message- From: William Wheatley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:50 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: PLEASE END THIS (RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?) then dont read it :) - Original Message - From: Tony Weeg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:37 PM Subject: PLEASE END THIS (RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?) mike d. time for this to move to the cf community list ive tried to restrain, as long as I could. this isnt code based, nor is it relevant to anyone here. this is a place for code fixes, and work arounds and tips etcnot opinionswe all have those, just like we all have.. im sick of reading this CRAP. later. ..tony Tony Weeg Senior Web Developer Information System Design Navtrak, Inc. Fleet Management Solutions www.navtrak.net 410.548.2337 -Original Message- From: Ken Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:24 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Huh?! That makes no sense whatsoever. How does being eminently suitable for high-volume sites in any way negate the reality that it's widely used for internal applications? And, of course, internal apps are frequently far, far more data intensive than public sites and are heavily trafficked to boot. Ken -Original Message- From: Greg Bullough [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? This whole 'Hidden CF Factor' sort of reminds me of 'Wagner's music is better than it sounds' or perhaps 'Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.' What hogwash! Basic statistics tell us that there is probably as much 'hidden' (read: 'intranet') ASP, PHP, and J2EE, proportionately, as their is CF. On the other hand if MM *insists* that CF is 'more pervasive than the visible penetration would indicate' then that puts the lie to what Allaire and MM have said all along...that CF is eminently suitable for high-volume sites in which usage patterns are unpredictable. In all, they can't have it both ways, now can they? :-) Greg ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
Re: PLEASE END THIS (RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?)
Tony, I have to agree with the off topic conversation on the thread. The origin of the thread is very relevant to the list but once we get the jokes started and going, it has to stop. In the future, please send such comments to me directly rather than to the list. Your email of concern spawned off an email that is definitely off topic. mike d. time for this to move to the cf community list ive tried to restrain, as long as I could. this isnt code based, nor is it relevant to anyone here. this is a place for code fixes, and work arounds and tips etcnot opinionswe all have those, just like we all have.. im sick of reading this CRAP. later. ..tony Tony Weeg Senior Web Developer Information System Design Navtrak, Inc. Fleet Management Solutions www.navtrak.net 410.548.2337 -Original Message- From: Ken Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:24 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Huh?! That makes no sense whatsoever. How does being eminently suitable for high-volume sites in any way negate the reality that it's widely used for internal applications? And, of course, internal apps are frequently far, far more data intensive than public sites and are heavily trafficked to boot. Ken -Original Message- From: Greg Bullough [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? This whole 'Hidden CF Factor' sort of reminds me of 'Wagner's music is better than it sounds' or perhaps 'Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.' What hogwash! Basic statistics tell us that there is probably as much 'hidden' (read: 'intranet') ASP, PHP, and J2EE, proportionately, as their is CF. On the other hand if MM *insists* that CF is 'more pervasive than the visible penetration would indicate' then that puts the lie to what Allaire and MM have said all along...that CF is eminently suitable for high-volume sites in which usage patterns are unpredictable. In all, they can't have it both ways, now can they? :-) Greg ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
What hogwash! Basic statistics tell us that there is probably as much 'hidden' (read: 'intranet') ASP, PHP, and J2EE, proportionately, as their is CF. While I agree with your primary premise, I disagree with your conclusion. In my experience, CF has tended to be heavily used in internal environments for many reasons. One of those is that it really started out as a workgroup or departmental product - many people were using CF for intranets before anyone was building big internet stuff at all! Another is that PHP and J2EE haven't really taken hold, in my experience, in the intranet for various reasons - J2EE's complexity, PHP's quirks and background. This is changing over time, and will probably even out, but that's been my experience. There are a few organizations large enough, and doing enough CF development, that they have their own CF users' groups! On the other hand if MM *insists* that CF is 'more pervasive than the visible penetration would indicate' then that puts the lie to what Allaire and MM have said all along...that CF is eminently suitable for high-volume sites in which usage patterns are unpredictable. The two statements aren't logically inconsistent. If most people use it for intranets, that doesn't mean it's not suitable for large, high-volume public internet sites. I would guess that CF isn't the first choice that a lot of people make for a lot of large, high-volume, public web applications, but that may say more about their biases than it does about CF's usefulness for the job. In all, they can't have it both ways, now can they? :-) Sure they can, even if they're wrong - obviously, you don't understand marketing. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Isaac, Why can't you put a copy of the application on your own server with test data and use it for a resume? I've done this with half a dozen apps. Greg -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? You're telling me... Man I'm tired of telling people all my work is behind someone else's corporate firewall, but if you could see it, boy would it be impressive! ... wtf? How am I supposed to write a resume this way? S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 Agreed, there are several sites I have built that no one outside the client will ever see. This makes it difficult to create a portfolio, but I'm sure there are as many hidden sites in CF as there are public sites, if not more. Joshua Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:23 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Vernon, there are probably many internal apps being developed on CF that can never be viewed from the public Internet. We are working on three major ones at present, two for Sempra Energy and one for Ernst and Young. These are large applications being created to replace legacy ones. I am sure there must be other such things going on out there. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryidlanguageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities. -Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile on me about this one, I'm not trying to debate the CFStudio/HS+ vs. Dreamweaver issue for CFers. Dreamweaver is ~80% of the HTML editor market, and these folks are moving into the dynamic application/web app development space in droves. Dreamweaver MX makes their entry into the CF arena a snap with its built in server behaviors that cover the most basic stuff, and CF's shorter learning curve and tagged based syntax makes CF a very attractive for these new application developers. *We've delivered innovative products that are more integrated and work more smoothly with each other than ever before, offering one-stop shopping for industry leading technologies. This also means that we can deliver well integrated technologies, and better information for those who are integrating these various technologies. But we've also worked to remain
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
My .2 euro cents (based on the market I know). Even if it is the best RAD tool on the market, I think it's going to be hard for CFMX to fight against the current .NET (asp.net) and J2EE (jsp) trends on the french enterprise market. In France, the CF hype was during the big Internet era (2/3 years ago). It was mainly used by people building web applications at that time : web agencies. This era is over (most of enterprise applications are developped in house). Now that web technologies (application servers) are becoming the heart of enterprise IT infrastructures, IT decision makers have to choose or have choosen in between the two current main tech trends : .NET or J2EE (usually depending on their company background). Those technology choices are now taken at the corporate level (not the departemental level anymore). Most of french IT managers and decision makers don't know much about CF (much more popular in US than in Europe, I think). Moreover, CFMX is a brand new product and is not used (yet) by large web sites... So for them, it is not a proven solution on the market, even for the front end of J2EE applications. They don't want to take any risks. I know that it is a pity (I am big fan of CFMX), but it's like that. I am very curious to see what will happen next for CFMX here, especially with IBM sales forces. In my opinion, the success of CFMX will also depends on the adoption of the Rich Internet Application concept. CFMX is (from far) the best server side to build Rich Internet App. Everybody predict the success of this concept, Forester call it the X-Internet (eXecutable by 2003 + eXtended by 2005 ;). The problem right now : there isn't any real big Rich Internet App on the market, and till then, no decision makers will take any risks to bet on it. So what MM needs is real life examples : something like amazon has integrated Rich Internet Applications with CFMX+FlashMX on their site and their sales have been improved by 20%! Then corporate decision makers will run to MM to get licenses!!! Decision makers needs facts (not demos) : - technology facts (scalibility real examples) - and business facts (ROI real examples). It will certainly happen, I don't worry about the future of CFMX + FlashMX. In this area, it is going to be a killer technology, but it will take some time... Market adoption of new technologies is VERY slow right now (look at .NET!). So be patient and prepare your MX skills... (message : learn Flash MX) Benoit Hediard www.benorama.com -Message d'origine- De : Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Envoyé : mercredi 16 octobre 2002 21:53 À : CF-Talk Objet : Re: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? There are also uses for CF that are more properly called Utility or Application Support programs. Examples of this are: 1) Using CF to write a general-purpose SQL client that can be used by developers and by end-users for ad hoc database manipulation -- you can put a secure, non-destructive, easy-to-use SQL tool in the hands of end users. 2) Data analysis - as part of the development process it is often necessary to analyze a client's existing offline database to determine the needs and optimum design of the online database, 3) Using CF to try different database/application design alternatives. 4) Once a database design has been determined, using CF to create and populate the online database from the client's offline database -- validating, restructuring and normalizing the data as part of the conversion process. 5) Using CF to prototype a client's application without expending a lot of resources. All of these share the characteristic of infrequent, or incidental use -- and aren't really considered production applications. Because of its powerful database (and data) manipulation capability and the ease with which you can create programs, CF is a superior tool for the above. Dick On Wednesday, October 16, 2002, at 12:14 PM, Mark A. Kruger - CFG wrote: Ok - so there a lot of .cfm sites and pages out there - more than .JSP ... or am I missing something. I wouldn't use a google search as a definitive test (for anything). CF is a widely adopted technology inside the intranet and extranet as well. In fact, the most amazing uses of CF have always been on the intranet - not the public web. -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:06 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Trey, I just did a very simple search on Google looked for .cfm got 25.5 million results, .asp 89.2 million, .php 106 million, .jsp 13.6 million. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
At 03:31 PM 10/16/02 -0500, Trey Rouse wrote: Helps to live in a state with very strong 'right to work' laws. Eh? 'Right to work' laws do not give you the right to use other people's property without their consent. Suppose you wrote a banking application for the green screen in RPG for the Bank of Transylvania. Would you expect that you had the 'right' to show that application to *any* outside entity for *any* purpose? Would you expect that you had the right to use a dial-up connection that you once used as an employee to enter their system and show it to someone else (for your own purposes)? If you would: think again. 'Right to work' protects you from 'non-compete' clauses and such. It does NOT absolve you from any non-disclosure that you might have signed, and in particular it does NOT absolve you from federal laws against entering a computer without permission. Indeed, if you did either of these things in an interview with me, you would disqualify yourself from employment. If, on the other hand, you could talk in general terms about the project and the problems you solved and what you learned, you would earn my respect. I don't sweat it as long as I'm demonstrating functionality I was solely responsible for creating. Now if I was working off a clear functionality spec from a client, then I tend not to show that code ;). When you work for someone, your 'creations' are not yours. They are theirs. And you must respect their property. Period. Greg ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
I hate that Greg is right, but he is right none-the-less. -Original Message- From: Greg Bullough [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? At 03:31 PM 10/16/02 -0500, Trey Rouse wrote: Helps to live in a state with very strong 'right to work' laws. Eh? 'Right to work' laws do not give you the right to use other people's property without their consent. Suppose you wrote a banking application for the green screen in RPG for the Bank of Transylvania. Would you expect that you had the 'right' to show that application to *any* outside entity for *any* purpose? Would you expect that you had the right to use a dial-up connection that you once used as an employee to enter their system and show it to someone else (for your own purposes)? If you would: think again. 'Right to work' protects you from 'non-compete' clauses and such. It does NOT absolve you from any non-disclosure that you might have signed, and in particular it does NOT absolve you from federal laws against entering a computer without permission. Indeed, if you did either of these things in an interview with me, you would disqualify yourself from employment. If, on the other hand, you could talk in general terms about the project and the problems you solved and what you learned, you would earn my respect. I don't sweat it as long as I'm demonstrating functionality I was solely responsible for creating. Now if I was working off a clear functionality spec from a client, then I tend not to show that code ;). When you work for someone, your 'creations' are not yours. They are theirs. And you must respect their property. Period. Greg ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
At 04:49 PM 10/16/02 -0400, Vernon Viehe wrote: A Yankee Group report from Oct 2001 (AFAIK it's the latest on the topic) lists CF as the #2 platform used in IT infrastructure/intranet applications. Well, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics... As for increasing the attractiveness of ColdFusion for high-volume large enterprise sites, we think we've taken a big leap forward on that by recently releasing CFMX for J2EE so that both existing and new CF apps can be scaled as a business's needs grow. IBM is marketing this to its customers, in addition to the other flavors of it which are available. In fact, you've taken a giant step backward. For the first time, Macromedia has reserved a basic programming construct (specifically JSP tags) to the $5000 Enterprise edition. In doing so, you have not only hobbled a lot of development paradigms where people develop on Pro and deploy on Enterprise Clusters, but have also made gotten all tangled up in your own feet with regard to competing against the JSP paradigm. And this just at a time when JSP is transforming itself via Jakarta (the very functionality you wished to access!) from an object-oriented hard-core coding paradigm to a CFML-esque tag-based paradigm. In general I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but having worked on Unix System V and later on UnixWare development I am astounded by marketing dweebs' ability to kill a good product by trying to squeeze the last dime of licensing fees out of the product. While all the while telling us what a great step forwards it all is! Eventually, you (Macromedia) will relent and release a patch, but that will be after someone creates a tag that encapsulates JSP custom tags into CF MX Pro for $100.00 or so. And after a number of shops decide that with the progress of the Open Source alternative, they don't need CFMX any more. What a waste. Greg ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
A Yankee Group report from Oct 2001 (AFAIK it's the latest on the topic) lists CF as the #2 platform used in IT infrastructure/intranet applications. Well, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics... And then there's the truth...which that report may reflect or may not. In any event, what would you claim was the #2 platform in Oct 2001? Ken ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Because the application does not belong to Isaac, it belongs to his previous employer. -- Mosh Teitelbaum evoch, LLC Tel: (301) 625-9191 Fax: (301) 933-3651 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.evoch.com/ -Original Message- From: Greg Luce [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 6:40 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Isaac, Why can't you put a copy of the application on your own server with test data and use it for a resume? I've done this with half a dozen apps. Greg -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? You're telling me... Man I'm tired of telling people all my work is behind someone else's corporate firewall, but if you could see it, boy would it be impressive! ... wtf? How am I supposed to write a resume this way? S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 Agreed, there are several sites I have built that no one outside the client will ever see. This makes it difficult to create a portfolio, but I'm sure there are as many hidden sites in CF as there are public sites, if not more. Joshua Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:23 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Vernon, there are probably many internal apps being developed on CF that can never be viewed from the public Internet. We are working on three major ones at present, two for Sempra Energy and one for Ernst and Young. These are large applications being created to replace legacy ones. I am sure there must be other such things going on out there. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryidlanguageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities. -Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile on me about this one, I'm not trying to debate the CFStudio/HS+ vs. Dreamweaver issue for CFers. Dreamweaver is ~80% of the HTML editor market, and these folks are moving into the dynamic application/web app development space in droves. Dreamweaver MX makes their entry into the CF arena a snap with its built in server
Pro v Enterprise? (was: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
On Wednesday, Oct 16, 2002, at 16:28 US/Pacific, Greg Bullough wrote: In doing so, you have not only hobbled a lot of development paradigms where people develop on Pro and deploy on Enterprise Clusters Given that the Developer Edition is effectively a dual-IP Enterprise version, I'm not quite sure how common your development paradigm would be? I'm not too familiar with how CF folks work in general... My team have Developer Edition installed on every desktop and laptop and have Enterprise Edition installed on all the shared servers (yeah, I know, we don't have to pay for it - I'm just reporting how we operate is all!). I'm genuinely curious about the setup most folks use... If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Actually, on second thought, it may belong to the previous employer's client depending on the situation/contract/etc. -- Mosh Teitelbaum evoch, LLC Tel: (301) 625-9191 Fax: (301) 933-3651 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.evoch.com/ -Original Message- From: Mosh Teitelbaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 8:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Because the application does not belong to Isaac, it belongs to his previous employer. -- Mosh Teitelbaum evoch, LLC Tel: (301) 625-9191 Fax: (301) 933-3651 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.evoch.com/ -Original Message- From: Greg Luce [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 6:40 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Isaac, Why can't you put a copy of the application on your own server with test data and use it for a resume? I've done this with half a dozen apps. Greg -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? You're telling me... Man I'm tired of telling people all my work is behind someone else's corporate firewall, but if you could see it, boy would it be impressive! ... wtf? How am I supposed to write a resume this way? S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 Agreed, there are several sites I have built that no one outside the client will ever see. This makes it difficult to create a portfolio, but I'm sure there are as many hidden sites in CF as there are public sites, if not more. Joshua Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:23 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Vernon, there are probably many internal apps being developed on CF that can never be viewed from the public Internet. We are working on three major ones at present, two for Sempra Energy and one for Ernst and Young. These are large applications being created to replace legacy ones. I am sure there must be other such things going on out there. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryidlanguageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
It all comes down to your contract w/ the employer. Do they own the code? Do you? do you have the write to use the code in any manner? Hopefully you do. ( Specially if you are going off and using that code ) At 07:59 PM 10/16/2002 -0400, you wrote: Because the application does not belong to Isaac, it belongs to his previous employer. -- Mosh Teitelbaum evoch, LLC Tel: (301) 625-9191 Fax: (301) 933-3651 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.evoch.com/ -Original Message- From: Greg Luce [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 6:40 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Isaac, Why can't you put a copy of the application on your own server with test data and use it for a resume? I've done this with half a dozen apps. Greg -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? You're telling me... Man I'm tired of telling people all my work is behind someone else's corporate firewall, but if you could see it, boy would it be impressive! ... wtf? How am I supposed to write a resume this way? S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 Agreed, there are several sites I have built that no one outside the client will ever see. This makes it difficult to create a portfolio, but I'm sure there are as many hidden sites in CF as there are public sites, if not more. Joshua Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:23 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Vernon, there are probably many internal apps being developed on CF that can never be viewed from the public Internet. We are working on three major ones at present, two for Sempra Energy and one for Ernst and Young. These are large applications being created to replace legacy ones. I am sure there must be other such things going on out there. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities. -Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile
RE: Pro v Enterprise? (was: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
20 developers all happily doing CF development. We currently have v4.5 ENT, v5 ENT and MX servers in the mix, mostly on Windows with 1 or 2 Solaris thrown in for fun. Debating whether to take v4.5 apps to v5 or straight on to MX...hmmm, Friday morning in-house CFUG meeting should be interesting. In any event, we mostly work on development servers mirroring the production boxes. Being subject to the security regs of a larger organization, we're not supposed to be running web servers locally so *most* of us don't. Those that do tend to be running v5 Developer against Apache and MX Developer using the internal web server. The more we explore MX capabilities the less reason we see to move elsewhere...quite excited about where things are headed actually. Ken -Original Message- From: Sean A Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 8:05 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Pro v Enterprise? (was: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? On Wednesday, Oct 16, 2002, at 16:28 US/Pacific, Greg Bullough wrote: In doing so, you have not only hobbled a lot of development paradigms where people develop on Pro and deploy on Enterprise Clusters Given that the Developer Edition is effectively a dual-IP Enterprise version, I'm not quite sure how common your development paradigm would be? I'm not too familiar with how CF folks work in general... My team have Developer Edition installed on every desktop and laptop and have Enterprise Edition installed on all the shared servers (yeah, I know, we don't have to pay for it - I'm just reporting how we operate is all!). I'm genuinely curious about the setup most folks use... If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
RE: Pro v Enterprise? (was: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
We run CFMX developer on local win2k pro machines with Apacheand we've got a CFMX/CF5 Enterprise on solaris for development staginga CFMX/CF5 Enterprise QA environment...and a second QA CFMX/CF5 environment that mimcs our production environment. Setup has faired quite well in the past...some minor trouble when developing on win2k and deploying on solaris...but nothing that a unix file format option can't fix in studio or DWMX. Stace -Original Message- From: Ken Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 8:39 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Pro v Enterprise? (was: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? 20 developers all happily doing CF development. We currently have v4.5 ENT, v5 ENT and MX servers in the mix, mostly on Windows with 1 or 2 Solaris thrown in for fun. Debating whether to take v4.5 apps to v5 or straight on to MX...hmmm, Friday morning in-house CFUG meeting should be interesting. In any event, we mostly work on development servers mirroring the production boxes. Being subject to the security regs of a larger organization, we're not supposed to be running web servers locally so *most* of us don't. Those that do tend to be running v5 Developer against Apache and MX Developer using the internal web server. The more we explore MX capabilities the less reason we see to move elsewhere...quite excited about where things are headed actually. Ken -Original Message- From: Sean A Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 8:05 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Pro v Enterprise? (was: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? On Wednesday, Oct 16, 2002, at 16:28 US/Pacific, Greg Bullough wrote: In doing so, you have not only hobbled a lot of development paradigms where people develop on Pro and deploy on Enterprise Clusters Given that the Developer Edition is effectively a dual-IP Enterprise version, I'm not quite sure how common your development paradigm would be? I'm not too familiar with how CF folks work in general... My team have Developer Edition installed on every desktop and laptop and have Enterprise Edition installed on all the shared servers (yeah, I know, we don't have to pay for it - I'm just reporting how we operate is all!). I'm genuinely curious about the setup most folks use... If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
I think perhaps 'technically' this isn't entirely legal; however, I believe as long as you are not reselling the code from the other app, revealing source code, or divulging a patented technology your previous employer would have a difficult time making an argument that you have committed a crime or broken a contract. It is a perilous path, and hopefully you include such caveats in your contracts with employers. But lets face facts, I'm sure most job offers I have received are a direct result of application design I did at previous jobs. Its the nature of this business. A smaller competitor often targets the employees of a larger established rival. As I've said, if I designed it and coded it, I don't think twice about demonstrating functionality as part of my 'portfolio', but I would never offer to resell that app or any source there-in unless I owned the rights to said source. And granted I've retained at least partial ownership of about 70% of the apps I've worked with. Trey Rouse -Original Message- From: Greg Luce [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:40 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Isaac, Why can't you put a copy of the application on your own server with test data and use it for a resume? I've done this with half a dozen apps. Greg -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? You're telling me... Man I'm tired of telling people all my work is behind someone else's corporate firewall, but if you could see it, boy would it be impressive! ... wtf? How am I supposed to write a resume this way? S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 Agreed, there are several sites I have built that no one outside the client will ever see. This makes it difficult to create a portfolio, but I'm sure there are as many hidden sites in CF as there are public sites, if not more. Joshua Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:23 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Vernon, there are probably many internal apps being developed on CF that can never be viewed from the public Internet. We are working on three major ones at present, two for Sempra Energy and one for Ernst and Young. These are large applications being created to replace legacy ones. I am sure there must be other such things going on out there. Kind Regards - Mike Brunt, CTO Webapper http://www.webapper.com Downey CA Office 562.243.6255 AIM - webappermb Webapper - Making the NET work -Original Message- From: Vernon Viehe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryidlanguageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our
RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Yea, my reasons for not keeping the source code and development db copies are primarily a matter of integrity ... It's not so much that I'm afraid of getting sued, but that I have my own quirky personal perception of what it is or isn't okay to do with code that is work for hire as opposed to code I've not been paid expressly to develop. If I earned a paycheck I don't feel like I have a right to divulge really any of the particulars of my work, wether they be functional, code or purely visual, to others. I suppose I equate it to the boss' right to privacy... Though the things I've done for other companies may not be exhibited in my portfolio, the skills I've used to do those things is manifest in my own personal projects. It seems however ( and I still don't understand why ), that hiring managers are uninclined to take seriously anything that I wasn't paid hourly or salaried by someone else to create. It doesn't really matter much that the application travels back in time to get accurate photos of John Walker Lind at the scene of the crime and paste them flawlessly into an xml document that can be syndicated in 37 languages and to 18 independant extraterrestrial colonies, in addition to providing accurate mineralysis of lunar rock and extrapolated strategies for lunar terra-forming. ;P The most I've gotten thus far from potential employers is that's a really nice interface. And in honesty, during several interviews I've felt that the fact that I'm a go-getter / self-starter and that I have projects of my own that I persue with more than the interrest of a casual software hobbyist, has been a flaw in the employers' eyes. The one company where I did get the nice interface response was actually impressed by my entrepreneurial spirit but were wanting to hire someone at a maximum of about $5k less than I was making at the time at close to full-time, indefinite consulting ( not making what I usually make for consulting, but not too much less than my last permanent job ) -- which is actually what I'm still doing now, although the company is having a tough time finding clients / projects and everybody's grasping at straws to find ways to create billable hours. So I'm just not real sure what I should do in all honesty. I don't feel like I have any decent way of showcasing my abilities that will both satisfy my own personal ethic and the employers' need for someone who only wants to hang on their shirt-tails and depend on them completely for direction, income, oxygen, and deep-space mineral sampling. :P Though this whole email probably belongs more in cf-jobs-talk than here... Isaac Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 I think perhaps 'technically' this isn't entirely legal; however, I believe as long as you are not reselling the code from the other app, revealing source code, or divulging a patented technology your previous employer would have a difficult time making an argument that you have committed a crime or broken a contract. It is a perilous path, and hopefully you include such caveats in your contracts with employers. But lets face facts, I'm sure most job offers I have received are a direct result of application design I did at previous jobs. Its the nature of this business. A smaller competitor often targets the employees of a larger established rival. As I've said, if I designed it and coded it, I don't think twice about demonstrating functionality as part of my 'portfolio', but I would never offer to resell that app or any source there-in unless I owned the rights to said source. And granted I've retained at least partial ownership of about 70% of the apps I've worked with. Trey Rouse -Original Message- From: Greg Luce [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:40 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Isaac, Why can't you put a copy of the application on your own server with test data and use it for a resume? I've done this with half a dozen apps. Greg -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? You're telling me... Man I'm tired of telling people all my work is behind someone else's corporate firewall, but if you could see it, boy would it be impressive! ... wtf? How am I supposed to write a resume this way? S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 Agreed, there are several sites I have built that no one outside the client will ever see. This makes it difficult to create a portfolio, but I'm sure there are as many hidden sites in CF as there are public sites, if not more. Joshua Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Mike Brunt
RE: PLEASE END THIS (RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?)
pardon me, i was having a bad afternoon and every little envelope that shows up in my task bar, being the OCD kinda freak i am makes me check my outlook, and when it kept being this OT thread, time after time, i was like ARGHH sorry everyone, but i was just venting and you all got it ;) love ya! tw -Original Message- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 5:13 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: PLEASE END THIS (RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?) Tony, I have to agree with the off topic conversation on the thread. The origin of the thread is very relevant to the list but once we get the jokes started and going, it has to stop. In the future, please send such comments to me directly rather than to the list. Your email of concern spawned off an email that is definitely off topic. mike d. time for this to move to the cf community list ive tried to restrain, as long as I could. this isnt code based, nor is it relevant to anyone here. this is a place for code fixes, and work arounds and tips etcnot opinionswe all have those, just like we all have.. im sick of reading this CRAP. later. ..tony Tony Weeg Senior Web Developer Information System Design Navtrak, Inc. Fleet Management Solutions www.navtrak.net 410.548.2337 -Original Message- From: Ken Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:24 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Huh?! That makes no sense whatsoever. How does being eminently suitable for high-volume sites in any way negate the reality that it's widely used for internal applications? And, of course, internal apps are frequently far, far more data intensive than public sites and are heavily trafficked to boot. Ken -Original Message- From: Greg Bullough [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? This whole 'Hidden CF Factor' sort of reminds me of 'Wagner's music is better than it sounds' or perhaps 'Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.' What hogwash! Basic statistics tell us that there is probably as much 'hidden' (read: 'intranet') ASP, PHP, and J2EE, proportionately, as their is CF. On the other hand if MM *insists* that CF is 'more pervasive than the visible penetration would indicate' then that puts the lie to what Allaire and MM have said all along...that CF is eminently suitable for high-volume sites in which usage patterns are unpredictable. In all, they can't have it both ways, now can they? :-) Greg ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: PLEASE END THIS (RE: The Hidden CF factor was RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?)
Being in Europe (GMT +1 time zone), the traffic on this list is very lean during my work day (well, the mail starts popping in in the late afternoon), but in the morning my CF-Talk folder sports some 250 mails. And it is all neatly sorted by subject, and quick to scan (and you can follow a full thread!). ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
I have to agree with Casey on this one. There are practically no CF postings in the Texas market. Dallas has by far the most of any other regional market. I'm no longer a developer and have moved up past the architect tear, and honestly, I here 5x as many stories of people ditching CF than ramping up. The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. We honestly are seriously considering dumping the product and retraining our CF team for native j2ee. MM's failure to support Oracles j2ee server is killing them in the education and corporate marketplaces. Too many large schools and corporations have purchased 'site' licensure of oracle products that comes bundled with oracle's j2ee server. Fiscally we can not justify purchasing another party j2ee server just to continue using the CF toolset. We are moving forward with what we already own. Talking with industry piers, we are by no means the only large shop doing this. My advice, if you want to maintain your marketability, you better ramp up on other application server languages. Trey Rouse Rice University -Original Message- From: Casey C Cook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Well, heres my 2 cents. When the economy was booming I noticed about a 1 to 5 ratio (roughly 100 CF 500 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs on monster.com for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area, now that the economy is down I see a 1 to 12 ratio (roughly 10 CF 120 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area. I know this is a very small sample, but if I was looking to stay in this area I would say CF jobs are becoming more scarce. Best of luck. Casey Cook Angel Stewart gelTo: CF-Talk cf- [EMAIL PROTECTED] @silkcotton.ccc: om Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? 10/12/02 09:10 AM Please respond to cf-talk You should be asking how good is the job market for Web Development in the US in general, rather than focusing on CF, and that might give you a better answer. -Gel -Original Message- From: siva girumala [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Hi All, How good is the job market for ColdFusion expertise? It seems the number of openings in ColdFusion are becoming less and less. Is it dying? I am sorry to even mention this. But i would like to know the future of ColdFusion. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
It's an economy and burnout thing... I mean how many people need software built? How many people are throwing hard cash at a software based business concept? Not many. Couple that with the reduced budgets everyone is facing across the board and bingo! Hiring isn't what is in, firing is... The whole view that the web was where you had to be, is a has been idea... Now its trivilized greatly (after the cafe mocha brewer turned web dude turned 20something CEO phase)... The margins are razor thin in general and clients expect tons of functionality at little or no cost.. Companies with payrolls are feeling the lashings, even if they are selling box software... Retainers, once the staple of entitlement have evaporated and lots of people owe for development across the board... Times are tough and leaner... Better and different... At least now I can laugh that Mr. Know It All but Knows Nothing Web Dorks and the idiot business school wanks with their bullshit $800 chairs and stupid gimmicks are back at their mostly trivial jobs for mostly someone else... Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com 412-292-3135 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:45:38 -0500 Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I have to agree with Casey on this one. There are practically no CF postings in the Texas market. Dallas has by far the most of any other regional market. I'm no longer a developer and have moved up past the architect tear, and honestly, I here 5x as many stories of people ditching CF than ramping up. The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. We honestly are seriously considering dumping the product and retraining our CF team for native j2ee. MM's failure to support Oracles j2ee server is killing them in the education and corporate marketplaces. Too many large schools and corporations have purchased 'site' licensure of oracle products that comes bundled with oracle's j2ee server. Fiscally we can not justify purchasing another party j2ee server just to continue using the CF toolset. We are moving forward with what we already own. Talking with industry piers, we are by no means the only large shop doing this. My advice, if you want to maintain your marketability, you better ramp up on other application server languages. Trey Rouse Rice University -Original Message- From: Casey C Cook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Well, heres my 2 cents. When the economy was booming I noticed about a 1 to 5 ratio (roughly 100 CF 500 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs on monster.com for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area, now that the economy is down I see a 1 to 12 ratio (roughly 10 CF 120 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area. I know this is a very small sample, but if I was looking to stay in this area I would say CF jobs are becoming more scarce. Best of luck. Casey Cook Angel Stewart gelTo: CF-Talk cf- [EMAIL PROTECTED] @silkcotton.ccc: om Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? 10/12/02 09:10 AM Please respond to cf-talk You should be asking how good is the job market for Web Development in the US in general, rather than focusing on CF, and that might give you a better answer. -Gel -Original Message- From: siva girumala [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Hi All, How good is the job market for ColdFusion expertise? It seems the number of openings in ColdFusion are becoming less and less. Is it dying? I am sorry to even mention this. But i would like to know the future of ColdFusion. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
At least you're not bitter. -Original Message- From: Paris Lundis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 12:37 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? It's an economy and burnout thing... I mean how many people need software built? How many people are throwing hard cash at a software based business concept? Not many. Couple that with the reduced budgets everyone is facing across the board and bingo! Hiring isn't what is in, firing is... The whole view that the web was where you had to be, is a has been idea... Now its trivilized greatly (after the cafe mocha brewer turned web dude turned 20something CEO phase)... The margins are razor thin in general and clients expect tons of functionality at little or no cost.. Companies with payrolls are feeling the lashings, even if they are selling box software... Retainers, once the staple of entitlement have evaporated and lots of people owe for development across the board... Times are tough and leaner... Better and different... At least now I can laugh that Mr. Know It All but Knows Nothing Web Dorks and the idiot business school wanks with their bullshit $800 chairs and stupid gimmicks are back at their mostly trivial jobs for mostly someone else... Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com 412-292-3135 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:45:38 -0500 Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I have to agree with Casey on this one. There are practically no CF postings in the Texas market. Dallas has by far the most of any other regional market. I'm no longer a developer and have moved up past the architect tear, and honestly, I here 5x as many stories of people ditching CF than ramping up. The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. We honestly are seriously considering dumping the product and retraining our CF team for native j2ee. MM's failure to support Oracles j2ee server is killing them in the education and corporate marketplaces. Too many large schools and corporations have purchased 'site' licensure of oracle products that comes bundled with oracle's j2ee server. Fiscally we can not justify purchasing another party j2ee server just to continue using the CF toolset. We are moving forward with what we already own. Talking with industry piers, we are by no means the only large shop doing this. My advice, if you want to maintain your marketability, you better ramp up on other application server languages. Trey Rouse Rice University -Original Message- From: Casey C Cook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Well, heres my 2 cents. When the economy was booming I noticed about a 1 to 5 ratio (roughly 100 CF 500 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs on monster.com for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area, now that the economy is down I see a 1 to 12 ratio (roughly 10 CF 120 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area. I know this is a very small sample, but if I was looking to stay in this area I would say CF jobs are becoming more scarce. Best of luck. Casey Cook Angel Stewart gelTo: CF-Talk cf- [EMAIL PROTECTED] @silkcotton.ccc: om Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? 10/12/02 09:10 AM Please respond to cf-talk You should be asking how good is the job market for Web Development in the US in general, rather than focusing on CF, and that might give you a better answer. -Gel -Original Message- From: siva girumala [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Hi All, How good is the job market for ColdFusion expertise? It seems the number of openings in ColdFusion are becoming less and less. Is it dying? I am sorry to even mention this. But i would like to know the future of ColdFusion. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Just for the record, my Herman Miller Aeron B Chair was worth every cent. ( I'm putting it on eBay in January to pay the mortgage ) At 03:36 PM 10/15/2002 -0400, you wrote: At least now I can laugh that Mr. Know It All but Knows Nothing Web Dorks and the idiot business school wanks with their bullshit $800 chairs and stupid gimmicks are back at their mostly trivial jobs for mostly someone else... -- Jeffry Houser | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] DotComIt, Putting you on the web AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My CFMX Book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0072225564/instantcoldfu-20 My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Band: http://www.farcryfly.com ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
LOL - Mr. Know It All but Knows Nothing Web Dork -- Mosh Teitelbaum evoch, LLC Tel: (301) 625-9191 Fax: (301) 933-3651 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.evoch.com/ -Original Message- From: Rob Rohan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 3:54 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? At least you're not bitter. -Original Message- From: Paris Lundis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 12:37 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? It's an economy and burnout thing... I mean how many people need software built? How many people are throwing hard cash at a software based business concept? Not many. Couple that with the reduced budgets everyone is facing across the board and bingo! Hiring isn't what is in, firing is... The whole view that the web was where you had to be, is a has been idea... Now its trivilized greatly (after the cafe mocha brewer turned web dude turned 20something CEO phase)... The margins are razor thin in general and clients expect tons of functionality at little or no cost.. Companies with payrolls are feeling the lashings, even if they are selling box software... Retainers, once the staple of entitlement have evaporated and lots of people owe for development across the board... Times are tough and leaner... Better and different... At least now I can laugh that Mr. Know It All but Knows Nothing Web Dorks and the idiot business school wanks with their bullshit $800 chairs and stupid gimmicks are back at their mostly trivial jobs for mostly someone else... Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com 412-292-3135 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:45:38 -0500 Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I have to agree with Casey on this one. There are practically no CF postings in the Texas market. Dallas has by far the most of any other regional market. I'm no longer a developer and have moved up past the architect tear, and honestly, I here 5x as many stories of people ditching CF than ramping up. The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. We honestly are seriously considering dumping the product and retraining our CF team for native j2ee. MM's failure to support Oracles j2ee server is killing them in the education and corporate marketplaces. Too many large schools and corporations have purchased 'site' licensure of oracle products that comes bundled with oracle's j2ee server. Fiscally we can not justify purchasing another party j2ee server just to continue using the CF toolset. We are moving forward with what we already own. Talking with industry piers, we are by no means the only large shop doing this. My advice, if you want to maintain your marketability, you better ramp up on other application server languages. Trey Rouse Rice University -Original Message- From: Casey C Cook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Well, heres my 2 cents. When the economy was booming I noticed about a 1 to 5 ratio (roughly 100 CF 500 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs on monster.com for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area, now that the economy is down I see a 1 to 12 ratio (roughly 10 CF 120 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area. I know this is a very small sample, but if I was looking to stay in this area I would say CF jobs are becoming more scarce. Best of luck. Casey Cook Angel Stewart gelTo: CF-Talk cf- [EMAIL PROTECTED] @silkcotton.ccc: om Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? 10/12/02 09:10 AM Please respond to cf-talk You should be asking how good is the job market for Web Development in the US in general, rather than focusing on CF, and that might give you a better answer. -Gel -Original Message- From: siva girumala [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Hi All, How good is the job market for ColdFusion expertise? It seems the number of openings in ColdFusion are becoming less and less. Is it dying? I am sorry to even mention this. But i would like to know the future of ColdFusion
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
I agree with your argument that the marketplace is not entirely to blame for the problems the Cold Fusion platform is facing esp. in enterprise solutions. What I always want to ask people who look at this from a cost standpoint is (and I ask this with all due respect): Do you pay your developers to code? Are you aware of the difference in the number of lines of code written to accomplish the same thing on each platform? I support several Cold Fusion and JSP applications and Cold Fusion by far is geared towards faster rapid application development. I've seen CF projects that take two days to complete take two weeks to port to JSP, and JSP projects reengineered in CF take one-fifth the development time. Different developers can have different opinions on what the actual time to production savings is, however, I have yet to meet anyone who says they can get work done faster in JSP than CF. I realize that different platforms have different nuances which are difficult to measure. But it is surprising to me that no one will try to take up cost savings in development time over a year as the justification for running Cold Fusion on top of J2EE. Maybe it is because no one has produced a study or has hard metrics to back up the assertion, I don't know. But production time is an intangible that affects the bottom line just like anything else, and is ignored at one's peril. M -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 1:46 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I have to agree with Casey on this one. There are practically no CF postings in the Texas market. Dallas has by far the most of any other regional market. I'm no longer a developer and have moved up past the architect tear, and honestly, I here 5x as many stories of people ditching CF than ramping up. The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. We honestly are seriously considering dumping the product and retraining our CF team for native j2ee. MM's failure to support Oracles j2ee server is killing them in the education and corporate marketplaces. Too many large schools and corporations have purchased 'site' licensure of oracle products that comes bundled with oracle's j2ee server. Fiscally we can not justify purchasing another party j2ee server just to continue using the CF toolset. We are moving forward with what we already own. Talking with industry piers, we are by no means the only large shop doing this. My advice, if you want to maintain your marketability, you better ramp up on other application server languages. Trey Rouse Rice University ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
those are the chairs... Glad to see you bought your own Jeff... I was reading a friends account of another defunct shop close out and the sadness of witnessing the dorks trying to cram there Aeron chair into their Saabs... Something redeeming about watching the waste be laid down. Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com 412-292-3135 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:06:07 -0400 Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Just for the record, my Herman Miller Aeron B Chair was worth every cent. ( I'm putting it on eBay in January to pay the mortgage ) At 03:36 PM 10/15/2002 -0400, you wrote: At least now I can laugh that Mr. Know It All but Knows Nothing Web Dorks and the idiot business school wanks with their bullshit $800 chairs and stupid gimmicks are back at their mostly trivial jobs for mostly someone else... -- Jeffry Houser | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] DotComIt, Putting you on the web AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My CFMX Book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0072225564/instantcoldfu-20 My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Band: http://www.farcryfly.com ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
actually totally not bitter.. I use to sit around and laugh at the insanity... Herman Miller pay day baby... those little funny cars... the denial... Oh the jet set wannabes :) she likes, ahh you money ... I was always the black cloud of death reminder... Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com 412-292-3135 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Mosh Teitelbaum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:10:29 -0400 Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? LOL - Mr. Know It All but Knows Nothing Web Dork -- Mosh Teitelbaum evoch, LLC Tel: (301) 625-9191 Fax: (301) 933-3651 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.evoch.com/ -Original Message- From: Rob Rohan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 3:54 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? At least you're not bitter. -Original Message- From: Paris Lundis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 12:37 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? It's an economy and burnout thing... I mean how many people need software built? How many people are throwing hard cash at a software based business concept? Not many. Couple that with the reduced budgets everyone is facing across the board and bingo! Hiring isn't what is in, firing is... The whole view that the web was where you had to be, is a has been idea... Now its trivilized greatly (after the cafe mocha brewer turned web dude turned 20something CEO phase)... The margins are razor thin in general and clients expect tons of functionality at little or no cost.. Companies with payrolls are feeling the lashings, even if they are selling box software... Retainers, once the staple of entitlement have evaporated and lots of people owe for development across the board... Times are tough and leaner... Better and different... At least now I can laugh that Mr. Know It All but Knows Nothing Web Dorks and the idiot business school wanks with their bullshit $800 chairs and stupid gimmicks are back at their mostly trivial jobs for mostly someone else... Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com 412-292-3135 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:45:38 -0500 Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I have to agree with Casey on this one. There are practically no CF postings in the Texas market. Dallas has by far the most of any other regional market. I'm no longer a developer and have moved up past the architect tear, and honestly, I here 5x as many stories of people ditching CF than ramping up. The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. We honestly are seriously considering dumping the product and retraining our CF team for native j2ee. MM's failure to support Oracles j2ee server is killing them in the education and corporate marketplaces. Too many large schools and corporations have purchased 'site' licensure of oracle products that comes bundled with oracle's j2ee server. Fiscally we can not justify purchasing another party j2ee server just to continue using the CF toolset. We are moving forward with what we already own. Talking with industry piers, we are by no means the only large shop doing this. My advice, if you want to maintain your marketability, you better ramp up on other application server languages. Trey Rouse Rice University -Original Message- From: Casey C Cook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Well, heres my 2 cents. When the economy was booming I noticed about a 1 to 5 ratio (roughly 100 CF 500 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs on monster.com for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area, now that the economy is down I see a 1 to 12 ratio (roughly 10 CF 120 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area. I know this is a very small sample, but if I was looking to stay in this area I would say CF jobs are becoming more scarce. Best of luck. Casey Cook Angel Stewart gelTo: CF-Talk cf- [EMAIL PROTECTED] @silkcotton.ccc: om Subject
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Gotta agree man. The freaks I knew who drove the exotic cars, basked with the babes, and threw the Ben's around are now in the local quickie mart with a 1980 Toyota, can't get a date, and live check to check. Ahhh, can't wait to tell my kid about the times when*grin* -Original Message- From: Paris Lundis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 5:06 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? actually totally not bitter.. I use to sit around and laugh at the insanity... Herman Miller pay day baby... those little funny cars... the denial... Oh the jet set wannabes :) she likes, ahh you money ... I was always the black cloud of death reminder... Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com 412-292-3135 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Mosh Teitelbaum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:10:29 -0400 Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? LOL - Mr. Know It All but Knows Nothing Web Dork -- Mosh Teitelbaum evoch, LLC Tel: (301) 625-9191 Fax: (301) 933-3651 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.evoch.com/ -Original Message- From: Rob Rohan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 3:54 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? At least you're not bitter. -Original Message- From: Paris Lundis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 12:37 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? It's an economy and burnout thing... I mean how many people need software built? How many people are throwing hard cash at a software based business concept? Not many. Couple that with the reduced budgets everyone is facing across the board and bingo! Hiring isn't what is in, firing is... The whole view that the web was where you had to be, is a has been idea... Now its trivilized greatly (after the cafe mocha brewer turned web dude turned 20something CEO phase)... The margins are razor thin in general and clients expect tons of functionality at little or no cost.. Companies with payrolls are feeling the lashings, even if they are selling box software... Retainers, once the staple of entitlement have evaporated and lots of people owe for development across the board... Times are tough and leaner... Better and different... At least now I can laugh that Mr. Know It All but Knows Nothing Web Dorks and the idiot business school wanks with their bullshit $800 chairs and stupid gimmicks are back at their mostly trivial jobs for mostly someone else... Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com 412-292-3135 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:45:38 -0500 Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I have to agree with Casey on this one. There are practically no CF postings in the Texas market. Dallas has by far the most of any other regional market. I'm no longer a developer and have moved up past the architect tear, and honestly, I here 5x as many stories of people ditching CF than ramping up. The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. We honestly are seriously considering dumping the product and retraining our CF team for native j2ee. MM's failure to support Oracles j2ee server is killing them in the education and corporate marketplaces. Too many large schools and corporations have purchased 'site' licensure of oracle products that comes bundled with oracle's j2ee server. Fiscally we can not justify purchasing another party j2ee server just to continue using the CF toolset. We are moving forward with what we already own. Talking with industry piers, we are by no means the only large shop doing this. My advice, if you want to maintain your marketability, you better ramp up on other application server languages. Trey Rouse Rice University -Original Message- From: Casey C Cook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Well, heres my 2 cents. When the economy was booming I noticed about a 1 to 5 ratio (roughly 100 CF 500 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs on monster.com for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area, now that the economy is down I see a 1 to 12 ratio (roughly 10 CF 120 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Oh come on! How are we going to integrate turn key solutions while creating high ROI? We are lost if we cannot evolve relational protocols or benchmark online functionalities! I, for one, cannot go after the low hanging fruit - ASAP - without falling back and punting! These things can only be accomplished by sitting in an $800 chair - or so I hear. -Original Message- From: Paris Lundis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 2:06 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? actually totally not bitter.. I use to sit around and laugh at the insanity... Herman Miller pay day baby... those little funny cars... the denial... Oh the jet set wannabes :) she likes, ahh you money ... I was always the black cloud of death reminder... Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com 412-292-3135 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Mosh Teitelbaum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:10:29 -0400 Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? LOL - Mr. Know It All but Knows Nothing Web Dork -- Mosh Teitelbaum evoch, LLC Tel: (301) 625-9191 Fax: (301) 933-3651 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.evoch.com/ -Original Message- From: Rob Rohan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 3:54 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? At least you're not bitter. -Original Message- From: Paris Lundis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 12:37 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? It's an economy and burnout thing... I mean how many people need software built? How many people are throwing hard cash at a software based business concept? Not many. Couple that with the reduced budgets everyone is facing across the board and bingo! Hiring isn't what is in, firing is... The whole view that the web was where you had to be, is a has been idea... Now its trivilized greatly (after the cafe mocha brewer turned web dude turned 20something CEO phase)... The margins are razor thin in general and clients expect tons of functionality at little or no cost.. Companies with payrolls are feeling the lashings, even if they are selling box software... Retainers, once the staple of entitlement have evaporated and lots of people owe for development across the board... Times are tough and leaner... Better and different... At least now I can laugh that Mr. Know It All but Knows Nothing Web Dorks and the idiot business school wanks with their bullshit $800 chairs and stupid gimmicks are back at their mostly trivial jobs for mostly someone else... Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com 412-292-3135 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:45:38 -0500 Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I have to agree with Casey on this one. There are practically no CF postings in the Texas market. Dallas has by far the most of any other regional market. I'm no longer a developer and have moved up past the architect tear, and honestly, I here 5x as many stories of people ditching CF than ramping up. The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. We honestly are seriously considering dumping the product and retraining our CF team for native j2ee. MM's failure to support Oracles j2ee server is killing them in the education and corporate marketplaces. Too many large schools and corporations have purchased 'site' licensure of oracle products that comes bundled with oracle's j2ee server. Fiscally we can not justify purchasing another party j2ee server just to continue using the CF toolset. We are moving forward with what we already own. Talking with industry piers, we are by no means the only large shop doing this. My advice, if you want to maintain your marketability, you better ramp up on other application server languages. Trey Rouse Rice University -Original Message- From: Casey C Cook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Well, heres my 2 cents. When the economy was booming I noticed about a 1 to 5 ratio (roughly 100 CF 500 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs on monster.com for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area, now that the economy is down
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, Paris Lundis wrote: actually totally not bitter.. I use to sit around and laugh at the insanity... Herman Miller pay day baby... those little funny cars... the denial... Oh the jet set wannabes :) she likes, ahh you money ... I was always the black cloud of death reminder... What does Areaindex, L.L.C. do? And was it started at the peak of the insanity. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
I love this chair. It is comfortable. It is the one area where I decided to splurge (during a particularly good year). And it seemed to make sense because I spend 12+ hours a day at this computer. Once I bought it, my back problems just about all but went away. Although, now I started exercising and everything hurts. Maybe someday I'll buy one for my basement (err... living room) recording studio. At 05:08 PM 10/15/2002 -0400, you wrote: those are the chairs... Glad to see you bought your own Jeff... I was reading a friends account of another defunct shop close out and the sadness of witnessing the dorks trying to cram there Aeron chair into their Saabs... Something redeeming about watching the waste be laid down. Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com 412-292-3135 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:06:07 -0400 Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Just for the record, my Herman Miller Aeron B Chair was worth every cent. ( I'm putting it on eBay in January to pay the mortgage ) At 03:36 PM 10/15/2002 -0400, you wrote: At least now I can laugh that Mr. Know It All but Knows Nothing Web Dorks and the idiot business school wanks with their bullshit $800 chairs and stupid gimmicks are back at their mostly trivial jobs for mostly someone else... -- Jeffry Houser | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] DotComIt, Putting you on the web AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My CFMX Book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0072225564/instantcoldfu-20 My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Band: http://www.farcryfly.com ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
Re: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Hate to burst your bubble but... ..the resale value of that chair ain't what you think it is. Seems the reseller market is flooded with them!!! :P Jeffry Houser wrote: I love this chair. It is comfortable. It is the one area where I decided to splurge (during a particularly good year). And it seemed to make sense because I spend 12+ hours a day at this computer. Once I bought it, my back problems just about all but went away. Although, now I started exercising and everything hurts. Maybe someday I'll buy one for my basement (err... living room) recording studio. At 05:08 PM 10/15/2002 -0400, you wrote: those are the chairs... Glad to see you bought your own Jeff... I was reading a friends account of another defunct shop close out and the sadness of witnessing the dorks trying to cram there Aeron chair into their Saabs... Something redeeming about watching the waste be laid down. Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com 412-292-3135 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:06:07 -0400 Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Just for the record, my Herman Miller Aeron B Chair was worth every cent. ( I'm putting it on eBay in January to pay the mortgage ) At 03:36 PM 10/15/2002 -0400, you wrote: At least now I can laugh that Mr. Know It All but Knows Nothing Web Dorks and the idiot business school wanks with their bullshit $800 chairs and stupid gimmicks are back at their mostly trivial jobs for mostly someone else... -- Jeffry Houser | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] DotComIt, Putting you on the web AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My CFMX Book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0072225564/instantcoldfu-20 My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Band: http://www.farcryfly.com ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
Re: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
I just got two $250 chairs for free, although not from a defunct dotcom. But the company that gave them to me is killing that office and saving money by having everyone work from home. I've noticed a little bit of comeback in the CF job market lately but not much. I started a similar thread on cf-jobs-talk just the other day. Me? I'm slowly learning Java and .NET (which are vastly similar skill sets BTW.) If CFML thrives some day in the future, then I'll be so much the better off. For now, I'm biding my time until I can demand a better salary, but I'm better off than most. My pay cut was only by 3k by switching to a more stable company--not complete joblessness. But part of that is because early on I chose to look into ASP, VB and Java and get familiar with them before the towers fell (figuratively and literally) and the economy went all to shit. Too bad there is no guarantee that the best technology wins. Craig - Original Message - From: Kreig Zimmerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 5:09 PM Subject: Re: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Hate to burst your bubble but... ..the resale value of that chair ain't what you think it is. Seems the reseller market is flooded with them!!! :P Jeffry Houser wrote: I love this chair. It is comfortable. It is the one area where I decided to splurge (during a particularly good year). And it seemed to make sense because I spend 12+ hours a day at this computer. Once I bought it, my back problems just about all but went away. Although, now I started exercising and everything hurts. Maybe someday I'll buy one for my basement (err... living room) recording studio. At 05:08 PM 10/15/2002 -0400, you wrote: those are the chairs... Glad to see you bought your own Jeff... I was reading a friends account of another defunct shop close out and the sadness of witnessing the dorks trying to cram there Aeron chair into their Saabs... Something redeeming about watching the waste be laid down. Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com 412-292-3135 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:06:07 -0400 Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Just for the record, my Herman Miller Aeron B Chair was worth every cent. ( I'm putting it on eBay in January to pay the mortgage ) At 03:36 PM 10/15/2002 -0400, you wrote: At least now I can laugh that Mr. Know It All but Knows Nothing Web Dorks and the idiot business school wanks with their bullshit $800 chairs and stupid gimmicks are back at their mostly trivial jobs for mostly someone else... -- Jeffry Houser | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] DotComIt, Putting you on the web AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My CFMX Book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0072225564/instantcoldfu-20 My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Band: http://www.farcryfly.com ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. Server version upgrade cycles in the enterprise app-server space is around 12 months, according to those I've discussed it with. We're really only about halfway through the cycle at this time. The overall installed CF base is pretty healthy, and growing. Here's a partial list of existing CF sites we use for PR/marketing: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/proven/ Even considering the upgrade cycle in the enterprise app-server world, the list of CFMX enterprise sites is growing every day. The following are a few of the CFMX sites recently sent to me: http://www.ecoprimalquest.com/ http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19languageid=1 http://www.panasonic.com.au/hometheatre http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/ (some CF, some dynamic Flash content, some just plain HTML) http://www.reservations.broadmoor.com We know a lot of enterprise-level customers have upgraded to CFMX and are in the upgrade cycle - but they don't always report back to us when they go live with CFMX, so feel free to send me sites that you know of too! In addition to this stuff, consider the ways Macromedia is expanding the CF market: *Ground-up rewrite in Java: This expands CF capabilities, as well as makes CF an option to the enterprise-level sites which want the benefits of deploying on a the Java platform and the rapid app dev (RAD) offered by CF. It also means current CF customers have a way to move up to the Java platform without requiring they abandon their existing apps (or their CF developers). Admittedly, this has been a challenging release of CF for some, but once the dust settles, CF and the CF community will enjoy this huge leap forward. *We're working to deliver the information developers need to help them be successful with ColdFusion and our other technology offerings: www.macromedia.com/desdev *We're tappiing into new markets for CF: -With Flash remoting, the HUGE Flash community is getting turned on to CF. While one can purchase Flash remoting for ASP, Flashers taking to CF readily because of it's shorter learning curve and RAD capabilities. -Dreamweaver users: OK, before you pile on me about this one, I'm not trying to debate the CFStudio/HS+ vs. Dreamweaver issue for CFers. Dreamweaver is ~80% of the HTML editor market, and these folks are moving into the dynamic application/web app development space in droves. Dreamweaver MX makes their entry into the CF arena a snap with its built in server behaviors that cover the most basic stuff, and CF's shorter learning curve and tagged based syntax makes CF a very attractive for these new application developers. *We've delivered innovative products that are more integrated and work more smoothly with each other than ever before, offering one-stop shopping for industry leading technologies. This also means that we can deliver well integrated technologies, and better information for those who are integrating these various technologies. But we've also worked to remain somewhat agnostic with many of these innovations; many (most) of these innovations integrate with 3rd party products/platforms. Individually, one may not be positioned to take advantage of everything we offer surrounding CF, but we see businesses moving into these areas as they begin to plan and implement new projects, and bring additional technologies skills into their shops. It's been said Macromedia should concentrate on CF improvements and fixes and forget everything else, but our efforts across the board are not mutually exclusive. We've already released one CFMX updater, and another is fortcoming. Macromedia is fully behind ColdFusion and ColdFusion developers. Yes, there is definately room for improvement, as is evidenced by some of the more lively discussion on this list recently. But we do listen to and incorporate to the community's feedback, while we continue to innovate. Unfortunately, sometimes we can't talk about everything happening, even in the face of (emerging) competition. But that shouldn't be misread as an indication that nothing is happening behind the scenes. I personally think the economy has stifled some of the payoff from Macromedia's efforts, it's stifled just about everything involving economics! But eventually you will start to see these efforts start to pay off for ColdFusion and CF developers. Nay-sayers can say spout gloom and doom if they will, but CF is on the way up. We're just gettin' started! Vernon Viehe ColdFusion Community Manager Developer Relations Macromedia, Inc. Online diary: http://vvmx.blogspot.com/ Macromedia DevCon 2002, October 27-30, Orlando, Florida Architecting a New Internet Experience Register today at www.macromedia.com/go/devcon2002 ~| Archives:
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Sorry you feel that way, Trey. We hope you'll reconsider. IBM is now selling and supporting ColdFusion MX worldwide. We think the momentum is building in the right direction. All: Are there others out there who feel a huge need to run CFMX on Oracle? If so, we would love to hear about it, along with an indication of how many CPUs you would purchase if it were supported. We're not in a position to make any promises about future Oracle support, but we're always interested in hearing what customers want AND are willing to pay for. Regards, Jeff Whatcott Sr. Director, Macromedia [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 1:46 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I have to agree with Casey on this one. There are practically no CF postings in the Texas market. Dallas has by far the most of any other regional market. I'm no longer a developer and have moved up past the architect tear, and honestly, I here 5x as many stories of people ditching CF than ramping up. The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. We honestly are seriously considering dumping the product and retraining our CF team for native j2ee. MM's failure to support Oracles j2ee server is killing them in the education and corporate marketplaces. Too many large schools and corporations have purchased 'site' licensure of oracle products that comes bundled with oracle's j2ee server. Fiscally we can not justify purchasing another party j2ee server just to continue using the CF toolset. We are moving forward with what we already own. Talking with industry piers, we are by no means the only large shop doing this. My advice, if you want to maintain your marketability, you better ramp up on other application server languages. Trey Rouse Rice University -Original Message- From: Casey C Cook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Well, heres my 2 cents. When the economy was booming I noticed about a 1 to 5 ratio (roughly 100 CF 500 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs on monster.com for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area, now that the economy is down I see a 1 to 12 ratio (roughly 10 CF 120 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area. I know this is a very small sample, but if I was looking to stay in this area I would say CF jobs are becoming more scarce. Best of luck. Casey Cook Angel Stewart gelTo: CF-Talk cf- [EMAIL PROTECTED] @silkcotton.ccc: om Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? 10/12/02 09:10 AM Please respond to cf-talk You should be asking how good is the job market for Web Development in the US in general, rather than focusing on CF, and that might give you a better answer. -Gel -Original Message- From: siva girumala [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Hi All, How good is the job market for ColdFusion expertise? It seems the number of openings in ColdFusion are becoming less and less. Is it dying? I am sorry to even mention this. But i would like to know the future of ColdFusion. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
I can't speak officially for my organization, but we were planning on running it on our Oracle server. I'll pass your request for feedback along to our IT Director. Kevin Graeme -Original Message- From: Jeff Whatcott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 7:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Sorry you feel that way, Trey. We hope you'll reconsider. IBM is now selling and supporting ColdFusion MX worldwide. We think the momentum is building in the right direction. All: Are there others out there who feel a huge need to run CFMX on Oracle? If so, we would love to hear about it, along with an indication of how many CPUs you would purchase if it were supported. We're not in a position to make any promises about future Oracle support, but we're always interested in hearing what customers want AND are willing to pay for. Regards, Jeff Whatcott Sr. Director, Macromedia [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 1:46 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I have to agree with Casey on this one. There are practically no CF postings in the Texas market. Dallas has by far the most of any other regional market. I'm no longer a developer and have moved up past the architect tear, and honestly, I here 5x as many stories of people ditching CF than ramping up. The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. We honestly are seriously considering dumping the product and retraining our CF team for native j2ee. MM's failure to support Oracles j2ee server is killing them in the education and corporate marketplaces. Too many large schools and corporations have purchased 'site' licensure of oracle products that comes bundled with oracle's j2ee server. Fiscally we can not justify purchasing another party j2ee server just to continue using the CF toolset. We are moving forward with what we already own. Talking with industry piers, we are by no means the only large shop doing this. My advice, if you want to maintain your marketability, you better ramp up on other application server languages. Trey Rouse Rice University -Original Message- From: Casey C Cook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Well, heres my 2 cents. When the economy was booming I noticed about a 1 to 5 ratio (roughly 100 CF 500 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs on monster.com for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area, now that the economy is down I see a 1 to 12 ratio (roughly 10 CF 120 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area. I know this is a very small sample, but if I was looking to stay in this area I would say CF jobs are becoming more scarce. Best of luck. Casey Cook Angel Stewart gelTo: CF-Talk cf- [EMAIL PROTECTED] @silkcotton.ccc: om Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? 10/12/02 09:10 AM Please respond to cf-talk You should be asking how good is the job market for Web Development in the US in general, rather than focusing on CF, and that might give you a better answer. -Gel -Original Message- From: siva girumala [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Hi All, How good is the job market for ColdFusion expertise? It seems the number of openings in ColdFusion are becoming less and less. Is it dying? I am sorry to even mention this. But i would like to know the future of ColdFusion. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Jeff, You might want to start a new thread on this. I only caught it by accident. Personally I only use Oracle's developer license to support my own retail product development, so CFMX Enterprise dev edition is good enough for me. Seems strange, though, to suddenly drop driver support in MX Pro. Maybe there are licensing issues I'm not aware of or something. Cheers, --Matt Robertson-- MSB Designs, Inc. http://mysecretbase.com -Original Message- From: Jeff Whatcott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 5:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Sorry you feel that way, Trey. We hope you'll reconsider. IBM is now selling and supporting ColdFusion MX worldwide. We think the momentum is building in the right direction. All: Are there others out there who feel a huge need to run CFMX on Oracle? If so, we would love to hear about it, along with an indication of how many CPUs you would purchase if it were supported. We're not in a position to make any promises about future Oracle support, but we're always interested in hearing what customers want AND are willing to pay for. Regards, Jeff Whatcott Sr. Director, Macromedia [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 1:46 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I have to agree with Casey on this one. There are practically no CF postings in the Texas market. Dallas has by far the most of any other regional market. I'm no longer a developer and have moved up past the architect tear, and honestly, I here 5x as many stories of people ditching CF than ramping up. The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. We honestly are seriously considering dumping the product and retraining our CF team for native j2ee. MM's failure to support Oracles j2ee server is killing them in the education and corporate marketplaces. Too many large schools and corporations have purchased 'site' licensure of oracle products that comes bundled with oracle's j2ee server. Fiscally we can not justify purchasing another party j2ee server just to continue using the CF toolset. We are moving forward with what we already own. Talking with industry piers, we are by no means the only large shop doing this. My advice, if you want to maintain your marketability, you better ramp up on other application server languages. Trey Rouse Rice University -Original Message- From: Casey C Cook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Well, heres my 2 cents. When the economy was booming I noticed about a 1 to 5 ratio (roughly 100 CF 500 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs on monster.com for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area, now that the economy is down I see a 1 to 12 ratio (roughly 10 CF 120 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area. I know this is a very small sample, but if I was looking to stay in this area I would say CF jobs are becoming more scarce. Best of luck. Casey Cook Angel Stewart gelTo: CF-Talk cf- [EMAIL PROTECTED] @silkcotton.ccc: om Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? 10/12/02 09:10 AM Please respond to cf-talk You should be asking how good is the job market for Web Development in the US in general, rather than focusing on CF, and that might give you a better answer. -Gel -Original Message- From: siva girumala [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Hi All, How good is the job market for ColdFusion expertise? It seems the number of openings in ColdFusion are becoming less and less. Is it dying? I am sorry to even mention this. But i would like to know the future of ColdFusion. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Just to clear the air...the posts were concerning the need for J2EE CFMX for Oracle's J2EE server...not the presence, or lack thereof, of Oracle drivers in CFMX stand-alone. chris -Original Message- From: Matt Robertson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 8:59 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Jeff, You might want to start a new thread on this. I only caught it by accident. Personally I only use Oracle's developer license to support my own retail product development, so CFMX Enterprise dev edition is good enough for me. Seems strange, though, to suddenly drop driver support in MX Pro. Maybe there are licensing issues I'm not aware of or something. Cheers, --Matt Robertson-- MSB Designs, Inc. http://mysecretbase.com -Original Message- From: Jeff Whatcott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 5:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Sorry you feel that way, Trey. We hope you'll reconsider. IBM is now selling and supporting ColdFusion MX worldwide. We think the momentum is building in the right direction. All: Are there others out there who feel a huge need to run CFMX on Oracle? If so, we would love to hear about it, along with an indication of how many CPUs you would purchase if it were supported. We're not in a position to make any promises about future Oracle support, but we're always interested in hearing what customers want AND are willing to pay for. Regards, Jeff Whatcott Sr. Director, Macromedia [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 1:46 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I have to agree with Casey on this one. There are practically no CF postings in the Texas market. Dallas has by far the most of any other regional market. I'm no longer a developer and have moved up past the architect tear, and honestly, I here 5x as many stories of people ditching CF than ramping up. The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. We honestly are seriously considering dumping the product and retraining our CF team for native j2ee. MM's failure to support Oracles j2ee server is killing them in the education and corporate marketplaces. Too many large schools and corporations have purchased 'site' licensure of oracle products that comes bundled with oracle's j2ee server. Fiscally we can not justify purchasing another party j2ee server just to continue using the CF toolset. We are moving forward with what we already own. Talking with industry piers, we are by no means the only large shop doing this. My advice, if you want to maintain your marketability, you better ramp up on other application server languages. Trey Rouse Rice University -Original Message- From: Casey C Cook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Well, heres my 2 cents. When the economy was booming I noticed about a 1 to 5 ratio (roughly 100 CF 500 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs on monster.com for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area, now that the economy is down I see a 1 to 12 ratio (roughly 10 CF 120 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area. I know this is a very small sample, but if I was looking to stay in this area I would say CF jobs are becoming more scarce. Best of luck. Casey Cook Angel Stewart gelTo: CF-Talk cf- [EMAIL PROTECTED] @silkcotton.ccc: om Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? 10/12/02 09:10 AM Please respond to cf-talk You should be asking how good is the job market for Web Development in the US in general, rather than focusing on CF, and that might give you a better answer. -Gel -Original Message- From: siva girumala [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Hi All, How good is the job market for ColdFusion expertise? It seems the number of openings in ColdFusion are becoming less and less. Is it dying? I am sorry to even mention this. But i would like to know the future of ColdFusion. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
That's what I get for coming into the middle of the conversation :D --Matt-- -Original Message- From: Chris Kief [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 10:40 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Just to clear the air...the posts were concerning the need for J2EE CFMX for Oracle's J2EE server...not the presence, or lack thereof, of Oracle drivers in CFMX stand-alone. chris -Original Message- From: Matt Robertson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 8:59 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Jeff, You might want to start a new thread on this. I only caught it by accident. Personally I only use Oracle's developer license to support my own retail product development, so CFMX Enterprise dev edition is good enough for me. Seems strange, though, to suddenly drop driver support in MX Pro. Maybe there are licensing issues I'm not aware of or something. Cheers, --Matt Robertson-- MSB Designs, Inc. http://mysecretbase.com -Original Message- From: Jeff Whatcott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 5:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Sorry you feel that way, Trey. We hope you'll reconsider. IBM is now selling and supporting ColdFusion MX worldwide. We think the momentum is building in the right direction. All: Are there others out there who feel a huge need to run CFMX on Oracle? If so, we would love to hear about it, along with an indication of how many CPUs you would purchase if it were supported. We're not in a position to make any promises about future Oracle support, but we're always interested in hearing what customers want AND are willing to pay for. Regards, Jeff Whatcott Sr. Director, Macromedia [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Trey Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 1:46 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? I have to agree with Casey on this one. There are practically no CF postings in the Texas market. Dallas has by far the most of any other regional market. I'm no longer a developer and have moved up past the architect tear, and honestly, I here 5x as many stories of people ditching CF than ramping up. The enterprise penetration of MX has been weak. MM would blame this on the marketplace, but I'm not sold on this. We honestly are seriously considering dumping the product and retraining our CF team for native j2ee. MM's failure to support Oracles j2ee server is killing them in the education and corporate marketplaces. Too many large schools and corporations have purchased 'site' licensure of oracle products that comes bundled with oracle's j2ee server. Fiscally we can not justify purchasing another party j2ee server just to continue using the CF toolset. We are moving forward with what we already own. Talking with industry piers, we are by no means the only large shop doing this. My advice, if you want to maintain your marketability, you better ramp up on other application server languages. Trey Rouse Rice University -Original Message- From: Casey C Cook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? Well, heres my 2 cents. When the economy was booming I noticed about a 1 to 5 ratio (roughly 100 CF 500 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs on monster.com for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area, now that the economy is down I see a 1 to 12 ratio (roughly 10 CF 120 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area. I know this is a very small sample, but if I was looking to stay in this area I would say CF jobs are becoming more scarce. Best of luck. Casey Cook Angel Stewart gelTo: CF-Talk cf- [EMAIL PROTECTED] @silkcotton.ccc: om Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? 10/12/02 09:10 AM Please respond to cf-talk You should be asking how good is the job market for Web Development in the US in general, rather than focusing on CF, and that might give you a better answer. -Gel -Original Message- From: siva girumala [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Hi All, How good is the job market for ColdFusion expertise? It seems the number of openings in ColdFusion are becoming less and less. Is it dying? I am sorry to even mention this. But i would like to know the future of ColdFusion. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar
Re: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
This should be on cf-jobs-talk However, my experience is the exact opposite. Based on the last year, there seem to be more and more openings coming into light. At 06:17 AM 10/12/2002 -0700, you wrote: Hi All, How good is the job market for ColdFusion expertise? It seems the number of openings in ColdFusion are becoming less and less. Is it dying? I am sorry to even mention this. But i would like to know the future of ColdFusion. I happen to see very few openings on job sites and also the calls are coming rarely. Is my perception is wrong? --Giru __ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos More http://faith.yahoo.com ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Given the state of the economy in general and the tech industry and start-ups in particular, I'd say that it's not CF that is doing badly. Even the rent-a-programmer-type sites aren't seeing the traffic they used to. I know that Local, State, Federal governments, not to mention non-profits, that were hurting for programmers of all kinds a year ago have stopped recruiting so heavily. Jobs that would sometimes go unfilled for 6-18 months back then and a lot was contracted out. Now, with the tech kill off around DC, open computer jobs in the region are pretty scarce in government and, as a consequence, I've noticed a lot more federal ASP CF projects being ginned up as those once freelance programmers opt for a regular paycheck. Or, put another way, projects that used to be farmed out or not done at all are now being done in-house. Of course, some of the stuff they want is sometimes pretty arcane and a broad base of knowledge is necessary. Right now I'm busy webifying input and output interfaces for a system that runs MuMPS in the background. Rick ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
You should be asking how good is the job market for Web Development in the US in general, rather than focusing on CF, and that might give you a better answer. -Gel -Original Message- From: siva girumala [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Hi All, How good is the job market for ColdFusion expertise? It seems the number of openings in ColdFusion are becoming less and less. Is it dying? I am sorry to even mention this. But i would like to know the future of ColdFusion. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion?
Well, heres my 2 cents. When the economy was booming I noticed about a 1 to 5 ratio (roughly 100 CF 500 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs on monster.com for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area, now that the economy is down I see a 1 to 12 ratio (roughly 10 CF 120 ASP) for coldfusion to ASP jobs for the Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas Area. I know this is a very small sample, but if I was looking to stay in this area I would say CF jobs are becoming more scarce. Best of luck. Casey Cook Angel Stewart gelTo: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] @silkcotton.ccc: om Subject: RE: How Good is the Job Market for ColdFusion? 10/12/02 09:10 AM Please respond to cf-talk You should be asking how good is the job market for Web Development in the US in general, rather than focusing on CF, and that might give you a better answer. -Gel -Original Message- From: siva girumala [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Hi All, How good is the job market for ColdFusion expertise? It seems the number of openings in ColdFusion are becoming less and less. Is it dying? I am sorry to even mention this. But i would like to know the future of ColdFusion. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
