RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Since they are two different products, I'd rather see CFMX in schools. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 10:38 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? I'll just throw in my .02 and say I believe Dave ( The Disruptor ) is correct. But, I wonder why, since BlueDragon *is* free, the effort isn't made to get that version of CF into schools? And why, even without trying to push it into schools, schools don't use it? It is easier to start building applications with and I think students, especially those who aren't focused on a Computer Science degree, would flock to for building the web apps they use every day. Students learn as much from projects started on their own intiative as they do from what they learn in class, so, if CF from any source is available for free and makes it possible for money-challenged students to build some usable apps quickly for their use, they'll learn to love CF... But, students have much more time on their hands than money, so what's cheaper will almost always win... And it would be hugely popular with the non-programmer crowd who are web and graphic designers trying to build in functionality into their sites due to it's gently sloping learning curve. I know about that curve, because I have no degree in computers at all, and I started out building static sites, then heard of Cold Fusion, found it digestable, and have been using it ever since. (Still using 4.5.2, however ;o) So, back to my main question: Why even bother with MM's version of CF? Why not BlueDragon in the schools? Rick From: dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 6:37 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? I don't know Bryan, seems fairly simple too me Wasn't saying anything about any kind of programming class, courses, studies, none, zero, ziltch!!! I was saying to use the basics of simple human nature (sticking with familiarity) to introduce coldfusion to a mass audience of GRAPHIC DESIGNERS who can then if they choose to dive into some programming as well already have the inclination to first and foremost give coldfusion a shot instead of the current standard which is PHP. By doing so you would very quickly see the stats for coldfusion sky rocket (since a lot of you are so into that crap) and it will also launch coldfusion into a much greater and wider audience. I would even go a bit farther and say to have the cfm standard version free as well to get it into more hosting companies and get these people on good hosting plans just as easily as php. At which point these hosting companies would see the benefits of running cfm and a lot more would anny up and purchase enterprise which would increase in more sales and a broader wider audience and we could then tell all the nae sayers to shove it!! haha :) Sure it would result in more crappy coders but does PHP or .net not have crappy coders as well? Gawd, I can't wait for Micha to ruin this... haha Micha, just so we are clear on this I am saying a lot of these ppl will only need say a contact me page with actually coding in it, and I know you will want to run it across several clusters and rewrite it all in java and damn I can only imagine the 3000 lines of js you'd need to validate the 1 email field and be sure to write it in OOP with several custom tags to send the email out and have it on a secured server and all, but. The point is to get it in front of them properly, so it's not like it is now where 99% of these ppl think coldfusion is SO EXPENSIVE for them to use, really, that's what they say, that's what they think and it's totally wrong. And then maybe when you have a bigger and more diverse user group like that, then whomever owns cfm will see the benefits of shoving it down our throats as often as they can. (aka your big front page adverts) It's not that CFM should be taught as the first language.just simply that it should be shown to students as an option. Not only that it's an option but that it's free to use to develop as well, which right now these ppl think it will cost them $1200 to even use. So it's a bit of proper education on their choices as well, which isn't happening currently. Ok you know I got whip out an analogy.. Say when you went to prom and your big brother gives a Trojan rubber, the next time you need a rubber ducky and you go to the store, what do you buy? Human nature says that you'd at least first look for a Trojan. Just like right now these students are given a PHP script, so when they start moving on into development the first thing they look for is PHP. So common basic sense says to replace that php script with a cfm script and if you don't get this drift lemme know and I will come over with my get a clue stick and beat you silly with it ;) Dave the disruptor LMFAO
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
It's not big deal. I didn't mind his comments at all. I was definitely asking for it with my smart-ass 'this in not your blog' post. So yeah, no harm, no foul. -Adam On 5/5/05, Sean Corfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/5/05, Alex Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it was not a baseless ad- hoymnum attack. Sure it was. It was crude, insulting and completely inappropriate to this list (or indeed any list that is supposed to be a professional technical list). Your continued rants and unpleasantness merely show most of us that you belong on a DNH list... -- Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/ Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205849 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Dave (am I going to say this out loud)has some good points on CF and missing the education boat ;-) I think im gunna frame that, if I send it to you will ya autograph it 4 me?? haha Only if you promise not to auction it off on eBay ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205852 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Nofi, but could we end this useless discussion? Some people keep whining / overreacting about the smallest things on and on. People sometimes say things that are wrong, it happens, move on, smile and continue the discussion. And for those who think mwuahaha, obvious reply coming ... yes me too ;) Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: vrijdag 6 mei 2005 15:32 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? It's not big deal. I didn't mind his comments at all. I was definitely asking for it with my smart-ass 'this in not your blog' post. So yeah, no harm, no foul. -Adam On 5/5/05, Sean Corfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/5/05, Alex Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it was not a baseless ad- hoymnum attack. Sure it was. It was crude, insulting and completely inappropriate to this list (or indeed any list that is supposed to be a professional technical list). Your continued rants and unpleasantness merely show most of us that you belong on a DNH list... -- Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/ Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205853 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
obvious post I think what you are saying is wrong and is a blatant attempt to demean or upset me! :p /obvious post Hey! Let's play a game... Next person who posts to this thread has cooties!! -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:52 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Nofi, but could we end this useless discussion? Some people keep whining / overreacting about the smallest things on and on. People sometimes say things that are wrong, it happens, move on, smile and continue the discussion. And for those who think mwuahaha, obvious reply coming ... yes me too ;) Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: vrijdag 6 mei 2005 15:32 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? It's not big deal. I didn't mind his comments at all. I was definitely asking for it with my smart-ass 'this in not your blog' post. So yeah, no harm, no foul. -Adam On 5/5/05, Sean Corfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/5/05, Alex Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it was not a baseless ad- hoymnum attack. Sure it was. It was crude, insulting and completely inappropriate to this list (or indeed any list that is supposed to be a professional technical list). Your continued rants and unpleasantness merely show most of us that you belong on a DNH list... -- Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/ Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205858 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Dave (the disruptor), Today a student writes a program on his own machine and then when he's done uploads it to the class server. So with the free development edition the students are covered. The students are then jjudged on how their program runs on the class server and their project can be accessed by all members of the class. The question is how does Adobe/Macromedia give away a free copy of an unrestricted version of CF for the class server without hurting business sales at the college? That's the first challenge and the next one is how do you get college departments to change? Right now I believe Macromedia educational sales reps handle it. I think you need an educational evangelist whose sole focus is based on how many schools add CF to the curriculum. I think that with Adobe taking over it's time to take a fresh look at promoting CF in the colleges. Rick Mason On 5/5/05, dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick, There are some amazing things this merger could very well produce so long as they work the products together the same way MM has done so, there could be some big time power added to cfm. Another thing I would like to see is a small footprint version of cfm server that would be run in the os to power desktop apps and ria's, much the same as shorthorn says it will do, I know there are a few ones that will do this but I'd rather have one from the source. I'm assuming this merger is a direct shot at the throat of M$ and now they will have more leverage to start the dismantling of the giant. And I know some will say that will never happen so long as windows keeps going which is something Adobe doesn't have but then again Adobe has something M$ will never have and thats the image design market. And the thing is other companies are going after the os and browser market and really no one is going after the photoshop market. Especially if apple doesnt mess up the marketting of this OS X but its growing, the younger generation is firmly entrenching itself in macs (except the hardcore gamers) and the ipod has become a staple of their generation. So the time is right for Adobe to make a run, lets hope they do it right. ~Dave the disruptor~ From: Rick Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:39 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Dave, *I hope one of the things Adobe does with cfm is to license its use in schools and such for free and use its deep photoshop roots to entrench it in a lot of these designer programs. * That's one of the things that I have campaigned on for the longest time. All the Michigan colleges and universities use CF for the business side. But only one uses it on the teaching side. The first language a lot of these kids learn is PHP, I think all will agree that CFML is a much better choice. Guess what the marketing budget for this favored position might be? How about zero, so even a slight effort could displace it. These students may learn C# or java later but they will end up doing their personal sites with CF. What do you want to bet that when they end up out in the world and want a chance to shine under a tight deadline and/or budget they will remember CF? I continue to believe it's a great opportunity that's being missed. Rick Mason ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205866 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
I can't resist... Haven't had a good case of cooties since the third grade. ;) Matt Osbun Web Developer Health Systems, International -Original Message- From: Ewok [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:33 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? obvious post I think what you are saying is wrong and is a blatant attempt to demean or upset me! :p /obvious post Hey! Let's play a game... Next person who posts to this thread has cooties!! -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:52 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Nofi, but could we end this useless discussion? Some people keep whining / overreacting about the smallest things on and on. People sometimes say things that are wrong, it happens, move on, smile and continue the discussion. And for those who think mwuahaha, obvious reply coming ... yes me too ;) Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: vrijdag 6 mei 2005 15:32 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? It's not big deal. I didn't mind his comments at all. I was definitely asking for it with my smart-ass 'this in not your blog' post. So yeah, no harm, no foul. -Adam On 5/5/05, Sean Corfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/5/05, Alex Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it was not a baseless ad- hoymnum attack. Sure it was. It was crude, insulting and completely inappropriate to this list (or indeed any list that is supposed to be a professional technical list). Your continued rants and unpleasantness merely show most of us that you belong on a DNH list... -- Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/ Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205867 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
resistance impact=futile post-type=obvious But my doctor gave me that lotion... he said it would be working already!! /resistance Oh well... J On 5/6/05, Ewok [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: obvious post I think what you are saying is wrong and is a blatant attempt to demean or upset me! :p /obvious post Hey! Let's play a game... Next person who posts to this thread has cooties!! -- --- - Buy SQLSurveyor! http://www.web-relevant.com/sqlsurveyor Never make your developers open Enterprise Manager again. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205869 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Well a business rule is it takes money to make money So what are the options? If they don't give it away then they will continue to go with php in which case they get no sale, no exposure and further distance themselfs from those potential customers and basically help keep php afloat and push cfm out that particular market. Or they can give it away and it's not like they are loosing money, maybe keep it with whatever packages they sell to these schools for Photoshop and such. And get more ppl into using cfml which in turn will sell more licences and get cfm back in the big market which means more $$'s. I'm sure it can keep itself afloat, if they don't get greedy. ~Dave the disruptor~ Original Message From: Rick Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 12:28 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Dave (the disruptor), Today a student writes a program on his own machine and then when he's done uploads it to the class server. So with the free development edition the students are covered. The students are then jjudged on how their program runs on the class server and their project can be accessed by all members of the class. The question is how does Adobe/Macromedia give away a free copy of an unrestricted version of CF for the class server without hurting business sales at the college? That's the first challenge and the next one is how do you get college departments to change? Right now I believe Macromedia educational sales reps handle it. I think you need an educational evangelist whose sole focus is based on how many schools add CF to the curriculum. I think that with Adobe taking over it's time to take a fresh look at promoting CF in the colleges. Rick Mason On 5/5/05, dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick, There are some amazing things this merger could very well produce so long as they work the products together the same way MM has done so, there could be some big time power added to cfm. Another thing I would like to see is a small footprint version of cfm server that would be run in the os to power desktop apps and ria's, much the same as shorthorn says it will do, I know there are a few ones that will do this but I'd rather have one from the source. I'm assuming this merger is a direct shot at the throat of M$ and now they will have more leverage to start the dismantling of the giant. And I know some will say that will never happen so long as windows keeps going which is something Adobe doesn't have but then again Adobe has something M$ will never have and thats the image design market. And the thing is other companies are going after the os and browser market and really no one is going after the photoshop market. Especially if apple doesnt mess up the marketting of this OS X but its growing, the younger generation is firmly entrenching itself in macs (except the hardcore gamers) and the ipod has become a staple of their generation. So the time is right for Adobe to make a run, lets hope they do it right. ~Dave the disruptor~ From: Rick Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:39 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Dave, *I hope one of the things Adobe does with cfm is to license its use in schools and such for free and use its deep photoshop roots to entrench it in a lot of these designer programs. * That's one of the things that I have campaigned on for the longest time. All the Michigan colleges and universities use CF for the business side. But only one uses it on the teaching side. The first language a lot of these kids learn is PHP, I think all will agree that CFML is a much better choice. Guess what the marketing budget for this favored position might be? How about zero, so even a slight effort could displace it. These students may learn C# or java later but they will end up doing their personal sites with CF. What do you want to bet that when they end up out in the world and want a chance to shine under a tight deadline and/or budget they will remember CF? I continue to believe it's a great opportunity that's being missed. Rick Mason ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205936 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
But C# and Java are taught in the area of desktop application development. Colleges do not do enough to teach web application development, which is where ColdFusion would be a useful medium. I don't have any exact numbers, but I can only imagine that more web applications are being developed than desktop applications in the corporate enviornment. So why are all the CS students graduating with knowledge that only helps them in the minority of jobs? -Adam On 5/4/05, Matthew Small [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why should CF be used as an option in a Computer Science curriculum over such languages as Java or C#? There is no reason at all. Beginning students do start out with procedural programming, just to learn the basics - primitive datatypes (int, float, char, string) and operators. They learn how to manipulate a single piece of data (string or number) and then groups of data using the array. The entire time, they are not worried about form structures, variables passing out of scope, request/response, or anything that is common to internet programming. Furthermore, they do worry about datatypes and proper operations on those datatypes. They learn compilation, execution, and the difference between interpretation and compilation. Later on, objects and structures come into play. Still data manipulation is focused on - not what the language is, or its idiosyncrasies. Furthermore, data output is usually limited to console, command-line output - not Windows or web pages, just line by line. Later on, file output is done and bit manipulation at the file level is learned. Pointers and direct memory management come into play as well, and must be used to accomplish later assignments. The students use the same language they started with from beginning to end, unless the instructor allows advanced students to pick their language. I chose to use VB 6.0 to write a compiler that blew away the rest of my class but simply because it looked good and they didn't know how to write in a visual language, not because it was so different than theirs. A competent student doesn't need to be taught another programming language in order to start using it. CF does not accomplish most of what needs to be learned in a CS environment. It's a tool for writing web pages on internet/intranet. It gets the job done, depending on the job. CF does many things for you - precisely why a curriculum shouldn't use it. It's why people can learn CF without knowing the nuts and bolts of programming. It's also why those people don't get past CF. I'm not even sure it should be an option in that curriculum. - Matt Small ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205661 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
CS programs don't worry where the output is going to, only the result. Web applications are only a subset of programming. The skills gained in college are transferable to any application type. Furthermore, web programming does not usually use the skills learned at higher levels (and CF in particular)- pointers - memory manipulation - garbage collection - deep copy - data structures - sorting algorithms - file structures - language compilation. This is the stuff used by those who write ColdFusion, C#, PHP, Adobe Photoshop and other applications. Anyone knowing these things could easily pick up ColdFusion. The reverse is certainly not true. The knowledge gained by CS students is mainly theory, but that student can display greater breadth of knowledge of computing than someone just armed with a CFWACK. - Matt Small -Original Message- From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 9:55 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? But C# and Java are taught in the area of desktop application development. Colleges do not do enough to teach web application development, which is where ColdFusion would be a useful medium. I don't have any exact numbers, but I can only imagine that more web applications are being developed than desktop applications in the corporate enviornment. So why are all the CS students graduating with knowledge that only helps them in the minority of jobs? -Adam ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205668 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
True. But I'm not saying _not_ to teach C# and Java for overall CS skills. I'm saying after the general knowledge of CS is taught, colleges should focus on web applications as they make up the majority of the jobs. There are quite a bit of skills that need to be aquired to develop enterprise web applications. I'm just saying that in the many times I worked with fresh CS students, they were not equipped to develop web applications as someone who had been using CF for a few years. Regardless if its CF, .NET or J2EE. There are completely different skill sets in web development vs desktop development. Universities seems to focus heavily on desktop development, even though the vast majority of the students will end up in a job writing web applications. So yes there are alot of fundamentals gained in desktop development, but there are also alot of skills lacking for web development. -Adam On 5/5/05, Matthew Small [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: CS programs don't worry where the output is going to, only the result. Web applications are only a subset of programming. The skills gained in college are transferable to any application type. Furthermore, web programming does not usually use the skills learned at higher levels (and CF in particular)- pointers - memory manipulation - garbage collection - deep copy - data structures - sorting algorithms - file structures - language compilation. This is the stuff used by those who write ColdFusion, C#, PHP, Adobe Photoshop and other applications. Anyone knowing these things could easily pick up ColdFusion. The reverse is certainly not true. The knowledge gained by CS students is mainly theory, but that student can display greater breadth of knowledge of computing than someone just armed with a CFWACK. - Matt Small -Original Message- From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 9:55 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? But C# and Java are taught in the area of desktop application development. Colleges do not do enough to teach web application development, which is where ColdFusion would be a useful medium. I don't have any exact numbers, but I can only imagine that more web applications are being developed than desktop applications in the corporate enviornment. So why are all the CS students graduating with knowledge that only helps them in the minority of jobs? -Adam ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205673 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
However, that doesn't mean that CS programs shouldn't include web application technology and methodology, even if only as elective. I think part of the point is that web development languages are already in play at colleges and university, and as CF developers, we would like to see CF be the defacto language of choice for web development discussion at colleges and universities, especially when compared to other languages such as PHP or ASP. I think that is a healthy direction for the CF community and would result in a growth of awareness and appreciation over the long term for CF itself. And btw, I know plenty of mainframe and Java developers who have little to no understanding of developing web applications, CF aside. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Matthew Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 10:16 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? CS programs don't worry where the output is going to, only the result. Web applications are only a subset of programming. The skills gained in college are transferable to any application type. Furthermore, web programming does not usually use the skills learned at higher levels (and CF in particular)- pointers - memory manipulation - garbage collection - deep copy - data structures - sorting algorithms - file structures - language compilation. This is the stuff used by those who write ColdFusion, C#, PHP, Adobe Photoshop and other applications. Anyone knowing these things could easily pick up ColdFusion. The reverse is certainly not true. The knowledge gained by CS students is mainly theory, but that student can display greater breadth of knowledge of computing than someone just armed with a CFWACK. - Matt Small -Original Message- From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 9:55 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? But C# and Java are taught in the area of desktop application development. Colleges do not do enough to teach web application development, which is where ColdFusion would be a useful medium. I don't have any exact numbers, but I can only imagine that more web applications are being developed than desktop applications in the corporate enviornment. So why are all the CS students graduating with knowledge that only helps them in the minority of jobs? -Adam ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205679 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
I worked with fresh CS students, [and] they were not equipped to develop web applications as someone who had been using CF for a few years. Agreed - but that's true for any job. Experience usually trumps knowledge. But consider how many people who have been using CF for a few years, with no CS experience, can move into a pure programming job (using C++, Java, etc)? A CS student can do that. Again, a person with a few years of writing real-world C++ or Java is going be better than the fresh CS student. A CS student can move among the many disciplines of computer science because he's got the fundamentals. I'm just wondering - what is your source for saying that the vast majority of jobs are going to be in web dev? - Matt Small ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205680 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
I thought he said that the majority of new corporate apps are going to be web apps... I could agree with that prediction. -Original Message- From: Matthew Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 10:56 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? I worked with fresh CS students, [and] they were not equipped to develop web applications as someone who had been using CF for a few years. Agreed - but that's true for any job. Experience usually trumps knowledge. But consider how many people who have been using CF for a few years, with no CS experience, can move into a pure programming job (using C++, Java, etc)? A CS student can do that. Again, a person with a few years of writing real-world C++ or Java is going be better than the fresh CS student. A CS student can move among the many disciplines of computer science because he's got the fundamentals. I'm just wondering - what is your source for saying that the vast majority of jobs are going to be in web dev? - Matt Small ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205681 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
On 5/5/05, Adrocknaphobia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm just saying that in the many times I worked with fresh CS students, they were not equipped to develop web applications as someone who had been using CF for a few years. My experience is that most CS students aren't equipped to build *any* real world apps at all. The colleges just don't teach CS that way. Regardless if its CF, .NET or J2EE. There are completely different skill sets in web development vs desktop development. Well, that's actually debatable in my opinion. Universities seems to focus heavily on desktop development, even though the vast majority of the students will end up in a job writing web applications. I know very few CS students who ended up in web development - and most of the web developers I meet have no CS background. Pretty much all the CS folks I know ended up in server-side development or packaged application development (boxed desktop or server software). On 5/5/05, Matthew Small [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyone knowing these [CS] things could easily pick up ColdFusion. The reverse is certainly not true. Yeah, that I'll agree with. The knowledge gained by CS students is mainly theory, but that student can display greater breadth of knowledge of computing than someone just armed with a CFWACK. Right, because the theory is important to *problem-solving* as well as a basic understanding of algorithms etc. Do I think CF should be taught in college? Only after teaching programming basics in a 'purer' language. It's like the old argument about BASIC. It's easy to learn but it's easy to learn bad habits. A first language should keep you focused on best practices - once you've got those, you can branch out. I learned Pascal first for good practices and assembler for the nuts and bolts. Then I learned FORTRAN, PL/1, Prolog, APL and a number of other languages. That core set of skills has informed every language I've learned since and every language I've learned has informed my software design skills. Teaching just one language - any language - risks boxing people into one way of thinking. Teaching 'easy' languages first risks people picking up bad habits that can be hard to unlearn. -- Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/ Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205682 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
agADave Watts wrote: Get the shit out of your eyes, you simpleton. While this wasn't directed at me, this kind of response really isn't called for. Personally, when I want to insult someone on a mailing list, I try to reach for the rapier rather than the cudgel, if you know what I mean. Yes, Dave it was. It was in response to him oversimplifying and maiming the intent of my original post. The response was right on target: telling him to actually read the post (which I assumed he could not because of excrement blocking his vision), and a simpleton because the term is reflective of his actions of not being able to take my post for more than raw criticism. Reaching for the rapier or a cudgel would not have been appropriate. My response was based on an earlier exchange of posts - it was not a baseless ad- hoymnum attack. I did not say that I thought CF would die. On the contrary, I stated that I believed the MM would still invest time and resources into CFMX. Well, we can all speculate on this until the cows come home, but why bother? If you believe that MM will still invest time and resources into CFMX, why not just let them choose how they want to handle advertising? What does their internal view of CFMX matter, as long as they still invest the appropriate time and resources into the product? Why do you think you're more qualified to run their marketing than they are? They have a lot of diverse products, and a similarly diverse audience of potential and actual customers. Don't you think that they would spend more time pushing CF if they thought that this would be more profitable than pushing something else? I'm sorry...can you point me to the place in my original post in which I professed to know more about marketing MM's products then they do? Dave, here is what I said: -- Why am I mentioning this? Well, IMHO, it's a subtle but important indicator about MM's view of CFMX. It's not that they won't devote $$ and resources to its continued development, but it's clear that the broader reach products like Breeze and some of the Flash authoring tools will continue to force CFMX to backstage -- My post was not only factual, but not a directive. I never directly or indirectly insinuated that MM should change their marketing strategy. I only commented on what it actual was, and offered my opion on what the lack of exposure on MM's site on launch could mean. As for the why bother, you're kidding right? Do you mean to tell me that Chris Berman the ESPN acnchor should sit still and just read the ball scores, without any commentary and anaylsis. Shoot, he can change the was Donovan McNabb plays, so why even bother talking about it, right? Just let McNabb throw the ball and report who scored more points on Sunday night? I find it amazing that people will read one post which raises a minor issue and asks an open ended question about CF, and respond as if I'm advocating bringing Ted Bundy back from the dead to speak at DevCon in Anaheim! People seem to be in the habit of comparing Macromedia's stewardship of CF to the good ol' days of Allaire. Well, Allaire had how many products? One, really, unless you count Allaire Forums and Spectra - both of which were handled poorly, in my opinion. Oh, I forgot JRun - but neither Allaire nor Macromedia really push that at all, they just used it to build a bunch of other products. Again, Dave, this is hyperbole. I only commented on CFMX7's exposure compared to other products on launch day (including the prior version of CFMX!) - not MM's stewardship compared to Allaire. -- Alex Sherwood ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205684 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
I completely disagree. There's never a good enough reason to start throwing around profanity and insulting people on a list intended for a group of professionals. -Original Message- From: Alex Sherwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 11:33 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? agADave Watts wrote: Get the shit out of your eyes, you simpleton. While this wasn't directed at me, this kind of response really isn't called for. Personally, when I want to insult someone on a mailing list, I try to reach for the rapier rather than the cudgel, if you know what I mean. Yes, Dave it was. It was in response to him oversimplifying and maiming the intent of my original post. The response was right on target: telling him to actually read the post (which I assumed he could not because of excrement blocking his vision), and a simpleton because the term is reflective of his actions of not being able to take my post for more than raw criticism. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205691 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
This was also after Adrocknaphobia said the following: --- Yes, your rants and paranoid conspiracy theories belong on a personal blog... for which I will avoid. --- Calling him a simpleton was warranted. -=-=-= Alex Calvin Ward wrote: I completely disagree. There's never a good enough reason to start throwing around profanity and insulting people on a list intended for a group of professionals. -Original Message- From: Alex Sherwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 11:33 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? agADave Watts wrote: Get the shit out of your eyes, you simpleton. While this wasn't directed at me, this kind of response really isn't called for. Personally, when I want to insult someone on a mailing list, I try to reach for the rapier rather than the cudgel, if you know what I mean. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205704 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
On 5/5/05, Alex Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it was not a baseless ad- hoymnum attack. Sure it was. It was crude, insulting and completely inappropriate to this list (or indeed any list that is supposed to be a professional technical list). Your continued rants and unpleasantness merely show most of us that you belong on a DNH list... -- Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/ Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205751 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Not to mention this is only like 2-3 months beyond the fact. Personally, I applaude their work and whether or not it gets in-yer-face-annoying advertising or not, it still gives me a fabulous tool to work with. From: Sean Corfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 4:43 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? On 5/5/05, Alex Sherwood wrote: it was not a baseless ad- hoymnum attack. Sure it was. It was crude, insulting and completely inappropriate to this list (or indeed any list that is supposed to be a professional technical list). Your continued rants and unpleasantness merely show most of us that you belong on a DNH list... -- Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/ Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205773 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
save your conspiracy theories for m$ ;) haha From: Alex Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 12:47 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? This was also after Adrocknaphobia said the following: --- Yes, your rants and paranoid conspiracy theories belong on a personal blog... for which I will avoid. --- Calling him a simpleton was warranted. -=-=-= Alex Calvin Ward wrote: I completely disagree. There's never a good enough reason to start throwing around profanity and insulting people on a list intended for a group of professionals. -Original Message- From: Alex Sherwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 11:33 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? agADave Watts wrote: Get the shit out of your eyes, you simpleton. While this wasn't directed at me, this kind of response really isn't called for. Personally, when I want to insult someone on a mailing list, I try to reach for the rapier rather than the cudgel, if you know what I mean. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205775 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Sean Corfield wrote: On 5/5/05, Alex Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it was not a baseless ad- hoymnum attack. Sure it was. It was crude, insulting and completely inappropriate to this list (or indeed any list that is supposed to be a professional technical list). Your continued rants and unpleasantness merely show most of us that you belong on a DNH list... I'm sorry I've made you feel unpleasant, Sean. If you'd look through the thread, I've responded quite professionally to those posts that were on topic and addressed the content of my post. The only person who I addressed off topic was Adrocknophibia, and only after he responded to my post three times - each time failing to address the actual content, and instead either telling me not to post, calling me paranoid, or stating that my post was a reaction to a fear of my career ending. You'll also notice that I ignored his first 2 posts, and responded by calling him a simpleton a day later, after a 3rd post insinuating that I felt my career rested on a flash banner ad. In 4+ years on the list, I have never had an unpleasant exchange with anyone (except for saying that Mach-II was better than OnTap, but that's another story). It wasn't until Phobia saw fit to pepper me and put words in my mouth that I responded in a less then professional manner. This thread is over. ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205789 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
I don't know Bryan, seems fairly simple too me Wasn't saying anything about any kind of programming class, courses, studies, none, zero, ziltch!!! I was saying to use the basics of simple human nature (sticking with familiarity) to introduce coldfusion to a mass audience of GRAPHIC DESIGNERS who can then if they choose to dive into some programming as well already have the inclination to first and foremost give coldfusion a shot instead of the current standard which is PHP. By doing so you would very quickly see the stats for coldfusion sky rocket (since a lot of you are so into that crap) and it will also launch coldfusion into a much greater and wider audience. I would even go a bit farther and say to have the cfm standard version free as well to get it into more hosting companies and get these people on good hosting plans just as easily as php. At which point these hosting companies would see the benefits of running cfm and a lot more would anny up and purchase enterprise which would increase in more sales and a broader wider audience and we could then tell all the nae sayers to shove it!! haha :) Sure it would result in more crappy coders but does PHP or .net not have crappy coders as well? Gawd, I can't wait for Micha to ruin this... haha Micha, just so we are clear on this I am saying a lot of these ppl will only need say a contact me page with actually coding in it, and I know you will want to run it across several clusters and rewrite it all in java and damn I can only imagine the 3000 lines of js you'd need to validate the 1 email field and be sure to write it in OOP with several custom tags to send the email out and have it on a secured server and all, but. The point is to get it in front of them properly, so it's not like it is now where 99% of these ppl think coldfusion is SO EXPENSIVE for them to use, really, that's what they say, that's what they think and it's totally wrong. And then maybe when you have a bigger and more diverse user group like that, then whomever owns cfm will see the benefits of shoving it down our throats as often as they can. (aka your big front page adverts) It's not that CFM should be taught as the first language.just simply that it should be shown to students as an option. Not only that it's an option but that it's free to use to develop as well, which right now these ppl think it will cost them $1200 to even use. So it's a bit of proper education on their choices as well, which isn't happening currently. Ok you know I got whip out an analogy.. Say when you went to prom and your big brother gives a Trojan rubber, the next time you need a rubber ducky and you go to the store, what do you buy? Human nature says that you'd at least first look for a Trojan. Just like right now these students are given a PHP script, so when they start moving on into development the first thing they look for is PHP. So common basic sense says to replace that php script with a cfm script and if you don't get this drift lemme know and I will come over with my get a clue stick and beat you silly with it ;) Dave the disruptor LMFAO!!! thats a CLASSIC!! haha Gunna use that as my sig :) I haven't been 2 bad lately, since the burning of XP and the move to OS X, I am back to my regular goofy self. From: Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 4:36 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? aggghhh! Doesn't anybody but me get what dave (not Dave W.) is saying!!! It's not that CFM should be taught as the first langauge.just simply that it should be shown to students as an option. Today in class boys and girls we are going to have a look at CFML, PHP, and ASP as examples of languages to use for the web. Here's how you process a form in each and mail the results to someone This is radically different that what Micha/Massimio/Dave W are on about. I think we'd all agree to what you bunch are saying...CF is not to be used as an example of proper programming...but that ain't what Dave the disruptor is on about ;-) Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205790 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Dave the disruptor LMFAO!!! thats a CLASSIC!! haha Gunna use that as my sig :) Glad you like itI think I'm about to be labelled...Bryan the Open Source Basher given my MySQL help thread that has run amok!! Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205793 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Well we all have opinions and thats a good thing! I like mysql but when somthing like this comes up it makes me go back and check my own db's and see if that's happening to me as well so it does serve a purpose and bickering is annoying but it does eventually help some people out and that's what we are here for, right? Even if I disagree with something I will check it out, cause gawd 4 bid there is a chance I could actually *gasp* be wrong. ~Dave the disruptor~ From: Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 6:45 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Dave the disruptor LMFAO!!! thats a CLASSIC!! haha Gunna use that as my sig :) Glad you like itI think I'm about to be labelled...Bryan the Open Source Basher given my MySQL help thread that has run amok!! Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205795 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Really Ben, I don't think you'll ever know the depth of your impact on the CF community Yeah like when I dropped it on my foot and it broke my toe! I thought you said you were gunna reimburse me for my medical bills Ben? ~Dave the disruptor~ From: Jared Rypka-Hauer - CMG, LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 1:05 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Maybe that was my problem... ;) I thought the WACK was a code dictionary. Hehe... Really Ben, I don't think you'll ever know the depth of your impact on the CF community. Without the WACK I'm not sure it would have built up the user base in the early days to be what it is today. For me, and for years, your stuff was my only source of information. Now I'm curious... has anyone hand-coded all the samples to create a running copy of Orange Whip Studios? I must admit, I never did... :) Laterz, J On 5/4/05, James Holmes wrote: ROFL! I think the WACK is actually rather good for best practices etc - as long as people read the entire thing as they are supposed to. -Original Message- From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2005 11:26 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to town Oh nice, so now *I'm* going to get blamed. ;-) -- --- - Buy SQLSurveyor! http://www.web-relevant.com/sqlsurveyor Never make your developers open Enterprise Manager again. ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205797 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Dave (am I going to say this out loud)has some good points on CF and missing the education boat ;-) I think im gunna frame that, if I send it to you will ya autograph it 4 me?? haha ~Dave the disruptor~ From: Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 11:26 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? why CF doesn't have a chance in educations. For CF there are specific trainings, and training centers, hence the Macromedia Certified Trainer status. MichaCF is taught elsewherelike by me (not MM certified and never will be) to folks getting re-educated for a new career. ..and remember Micha...not all education happens at the university levelthere are tech schools (no I won't debate the quality of these places) and colleges. These places spit out an awful lot of Internet career minded folks...and alot of them come out with PHP experience because it's free and the schools run tight budgets. Dave (am I going to say this out loud)has some good points on CF and missing the education boat ;-) Also...I see this OOP argument come up again and again. We always have to remember that the vast majority of web apps out there are not so vast that they need the level of architecture you're talking about (hell that's why so many are written in PHP). So with better focus on the new learners and getting those that made up their minds that CF was a toy back in the 4.x days to have another look will help CF. Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205798 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
See, now people will consider me guilty for having you here, stirring trooubles on the list :-)) well you did start the boat rowing for me with cfm! Was actually some comments you made one time to me about how I was having troubles with asp and sending mail and the gawd aweful mess m$ makes you go through to do that and you showed an example of send mail in cfm and I was amazed, that and uploading files and of course your constant commenting about cfm is just sexier, got have that :) But I do thank you for it, cfm has made my life much easier :) ~Dave the disruptor~ From: Massimo Foti [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 4:20 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? It's funny Massimo, you more than anything got me into moving to cfm :) See, now people will consider me guilty for having you here, stirring trooubles on the list :-)) thanks! I guess the ladies argument played a major role here :-) And I hear what you are saying but it's still not what my point was. I was trying to answer a very specific question from Micha concerning computer science education, a place where, in my opinion, CFML doesn't fit well. Again I was referencing these people who dont want to be programmers but find out that they do need to learn something to be able to function or get a good job Sure, for those people CF is a great choice Massimo Foti DW tools: http://www.massimocorner.com CF tools: http://www.olimpo.ch/tmt/ ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205800 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Rick, There are some amazing things this merger could very well produce so long as they work the products together the same way MM has done so, there could be some big time power added to cfm. Another thing I would like to see is a small footprint version of cfm server that would be run in the os to power desktop apps and ria's, much the same as shorthorn says it will do, I know there are a few ones that will do this but I'd rather have one from the source. I'm assuming this merger is a direct shot at the throat of M$ and now they will have more leverage to start the dismantling of the giant. And I know some will say that will never happen so long as windows keeps going which is something Adobe doesn't have but then again Adobe has something M$ will never have and thats the image design market. And the thing is other companies are going after the os and browser market and really no one is going after the photoshop market. Especially if apple doesnt mess up the marketting of this OS X but its growing, the younger generation is firmly entrenching itself in macs (except the hardcore gamers) and the ipod has become a staple of their generation. So the time is right for Adobe to make a run, lets hope they do it right. ~Dave the disruptor~ From: Rick Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:39 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Dave, *I hope one of the things Adobe does with cfm is to license its use in schools and such for free and use its deep photoshop roots to entrench it in a lot of these designer programs. * That's one of the things that I have campaigned on for the longest time. All the Michigan colleges and universities use CF for the business side. But only one uses it on the teaching side. The first language a lot of these kids learn is PHP, I think all will agree that CFML is a much better choice. Guess what the marketing budget for this favored position might be? How about zero, so even a slight effort could displace it. These students may learn C# or java later but they will end up doing their personal sites with CF. What do you want to bet that when they end up out in the world and want a chance to shine under a tight deadline and/or budget they will remember CF? I continue to believe it's a great opportunity that's being missed. Rick Mason ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205801 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
This thread is over. Woo Hoo! -- --mattRobertson-- Janitor, MSB Web Systems mysecretbase.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205803 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Right on Rick, How do you motivate people? Show them results, quickly, keep them excited, which cfm excels at. I'd rather grab todays paper and head to the office for awhile before I would want to look at PHP code, especially if I was completely new. Build the basement first and give them something to grow upon, keep their excitement level up and they will flourish, push OOP down their throats at first and you will loose a lot of them. And todays coldfusion gives so much excitement to new users, give them a flash form and watch them e and ah. Give them the chance to builder a better web site faster then continue up the ladder from there just as many of us on this list are doing. I would assume that a huge majority of ppl who use cfm, .net or php will never, ever step into a university to learn anything about programming and just because they don't doesn't mean that they will never make a decent web site. They just won't have the opportunity to come on here and be like Micha :) haha jk :| ~Dave the disruptor~ From: Rick Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 4:07 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Calvin, In a word yes. I think ColdFusion offers a better introduction to programming than PHP. Even Adobe can't go toe to toe with Microsoft in marketing CF to corporations. Macromedia always said that CF was a bottom up product. Well I can't think of a better way to get CF in the back door of corporations than to introduce it to thousands of college students. I refuse to believe that it will cripple them from going on to learn OOP and advanced languages. Rick Mason On 5/4/05, Calvin Ward wrote: Effectively, you seem to be saying that education establishments should be teaching CF instead of PHP? -Original Message- From: Rick Mason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 10:47 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Micha, With all due respect I wasn't advocating if you read my message that they only learn CFML. Most of the university students in Michigan leave knowing several languages, of course they should know c# and java if they're to become employable. I remain unconvinced that learning CF first is going to somehow handicap them in learning advanced languages. In fact I think it's just the opposite, the quick productivity building useful stuff is likely to inspire them as they learn advanced subjects. A great many programmers of my generation first tackled the basic that IBM shipped on the first PC XT's. Somehow using things like GoTo's didn't prevent me from going on to learn other languages with more advanced concepts. I still remain convinced that CF would be a great first language in colleges and with a little effort it could be dominant in that role. Rick Mason On 5/4/05, Micha Schopman wrote: I disagree, in the least because the job opportunities for C, C++, C# and Java are much and much larger than those for CF developers. Second, with C# or Java you learn to work with true OOP in a much more advanced environment then CF will ever be. If you for example look at protection levels for every action you take, it will force you to think about the architecture of your application in a way CF will probably never reach. Even then, I don't know how this is in the US, but here university level schools don't really focus on the programming languages, but they focus more on managing a software creation process, writing technical and functional documentation, diagrams, architectures, release management, and then there comes programming. It is nice if students can get a copy of CF cheaper with a school license, but to let schools teach CF, rather not. Every Java developer can program CF, not every CF programmer can do Java. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205796 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
I'll just throw in my .02 and say I believe Dave ( The Disruptor ) is correct. But, I wonder why, since BlueDragon *is* free, the effort isn't made to get that version of CF into schools? And why, even without trying to push it into schools, schools don't use it? It is easier to start building applications with and I think students, especially those who aren't focused on a Computer Science degree, would flock to for building the web apps they use every day. Students learn as much from projects started on their own intiative as they do from what they learn in class, so, if CF from any source is available for free and makes it possible for money-challenged students to build some usable apps quickly for their use, they'll learn to love CF... But, students have much more time on their hands than money, so what's cheaper will almost always win... And it would be hugely popular with the non-programmer crowd who are web and graphic designers trying to build in functionality into their sites due to it's gently sloping learning curve. I know about that curve, because I have no degree in computers at all, and I started out building static sites, then heard of Cold Fusion, found it digestable, and have been using it ever since. (Still using 4.5.2, however ;o) So, back to my main question: Why even bother with MM's version of CF? Why not BlueDragon in the schools? Rick From: dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 6:37 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? I don't know Bryan, seems fairly simple too me Wasn't saying anything about any kind of programming class, courses, studies, none, zero, ziltch!!! I was saying to use the basics of simple human nature (sticking with familiarity) to introduce coldfusion to a mass audience of GRAPHIC DESIGNERS who can then if they choose to dive into some programming as well already have the inclination to first and foremost give coldfusion a shot instead of the current standard which is PHP. By doing so you would very quickly see the stats for coldfusion sky rocket (since a lot of you are so into that crap) and it will also launch coldfusion into a much greater and wider audience. I would even go a bit farther and say to have the cfm standard version free as well to get it into more hosting companies and get these people on good hosting plans just as easily as php. At which point these hosting companies would see the benefits of running cfm and a lot more would anny up and purchase enterprise which would increase in more sales and a broader wider audience and we could then tell all the nae sayers to shove it!! haha :) Sure it would result in more crappy coders but does PHP or .net not have crappy coders as well? Gawd, I can't wait for Micha to ruin this... haha Micha, just so we are clear on this I am saying a lot of these ppl will only need say a contact me page with actually coding in it, and I know you will want to run it across several clusters and rewrite it all in java and damn I can only imagine the 3000 lines of js you'd need to validate the 1 email field and be sure to write it in OOP with several custom tags to send the email out and have it on a secured server and all, but. The point is to get it in front of them properly, so it's not like it is now where 99% of these ppl think coldfusion is SO EXPENSIVE for them to use, really, that's what they say, that's what they think and it's totally wrong. And then maybe when you have a bigger and more diverse user group like that, then whomever owns cfm will see the benefits of shoving it down our throats as often as they can. (aka your big front page adverts) It's not that CFM should be taught as the first language.just simply that it should be shown to students as an option. Not only that it's an option but that it's free to use to develop as well, which right now these ppl think it will cost them $1200 to even use. So it's a bit of proper education on their choices as well, which isn't happening currently. Ok you know I got whip out an analogy.. Say when you went to prom and your big brother gives a Trojan rubber, the next time you need a rubber ducky and you go to the store, what do you buy? Human nature says that you'd at least first look for a Trojan. Just like right now these students are given a PHP script, so when they start moving on into development the first thing they look for is PHP. So common basic sense says to replace that php script with a cfm script and if you don't get this drift lemme know and I will come over with my get a clue stick and beat you silly with it ;) Dave the disruptor LMFAO!!! thats a CLASSIC!! haha Gunna use that as my sig :) I haven't been 2 bad lately, since the burning of XP and the move to OS X, I am back to my regular goofy self. From: Bryan Stevenson
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
I'm always correct!! haha ok, thats funny no matter who ya are.. Why not bd? Vince will have to answer that. My answer is what my original intentions of it was that Adobe is so firmly entrenched in these programs that it would theoretically be easy to squeeze it in once they have it. (after merger) So when the send out the new software as like right now with adobe cs2 they could throw coldfusion in there. There probably wouldn't very much arm twisting like there would be with bg and you all know how we are with new toys! ~Dave the disruptor~ From: Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 10:40 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? I'll just throw in my .02 and say I believe Dave ( The Disruptor ) is correct. But, I wonder why, since BlueDragon *is* free, the effort isn't made to get that version of CF into schools? And why, even without trying to push it into schools, schools don't use it? It is easier to start building applications with and I think students, especially those who aren't focused on a Computer Science degree, would flock to for building the web apps they use every day. Students learn as much from projects started on their own intiative as they do from what they learn in class, so, if CF from any source is available for free and makes it possible for money-challenged students to build some usable apps quickly for their use, they'll learn to love CF... But, students have much more time on their hands than money, so what's cheaper will almost always win... And it would be hugely popular with the non-programmer crowd who are web and graphic designers trying to build in functionality into their sites due to it's gently sloping learning curve. I know about that curve, because I have no degree in computers at all, and I started out building static sites, then heard of Cold Fusion, found it digestable, and have been using it ever since. (Still using 4.5.2, however ;o) So, back to my main question: Why even bother with MM's version of CF? Why not BlueDragon in the schools? Rick From: dave Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 6:37 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? I don't know Bryan, seems fairly simple too me Wasn't saying anything about any kind of programming class, courses, studies, none, zero, ziltch!!! I was saying to use the basics of simple human nature (sticking with familiarity) to introduce coldfusion to a mass audience of GRAPHIC DESIGNERS who can then if they choose to dive into some programming as well already have the inclination to first and foremost give coldfusion a shot instead of the current standard which is PHP. By doing so you would very quickly see the stats for coldfusion sky rocket (since a lot of you are so into that crap) and it will also launch coldfusion into a much greater and wider audience. I would even go a bit farther and say to have the cfm standard version free as well to get it into more hosting companies and get these people on good hosting plans just as easily as php. At which point these hosting companies would see the benefits of running cfm and a lot more would anny up and purchase enterprise which would increase in more sales and a broader wider audience and we could then tell all the nae sayers to shove it!! haha :) Sure it would result in more crappy coders but does PHP or .net not have crappy coders as well? Gawd, I can't wait for Micha to ruin this... haha Micha, just so we are clear on this I am saying a lot of these ppl will only need say a contact me page with actually coding in it, and I know you will want to run it across several clusters and rewrite it all in java and damn I can only imagine the 3000 lines of js you'd need to validate the 1 email field and be sure to write it in OOP with several custom tags to send the email out and have it on a secured server and all, but. The point is to get it in front of them properly, so it's not like it is now where 99% of these ppl think coldfusion is SO EXPENSIVE for them to use, really, that's what they say, that's what they think and it's totally wrong. And then maybe when you have a bigger and more diverse user group like that, then whomever owns cfm will see the benefits of shoving it down our throats as often as they can. (aka your big front page adverts) It's not that CFM should be taught as the first language.just simply that it should be shown to students as an option. Not only that it's an option but that it's free to use to develop as well, which right now these ppl think it will cost them $1200 to even use. So it's a bit of proper education on their choices as well, which isn't happening currently. Ok you know I got whip out an analogy.. Say when you went to prom and your big brother gives a Trojan rubber, the next time
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
I disagree, in the least because the job opportunities for C, C++, C# and Java are much and much larger than those for CF developers. Second, with C# or Java you learn to work with true OOP in a much more advanced environment then CF will ever be. If you for example look at protection levels for every action you take, it will force you to think about the architecture of your application in a way CF will probably never reach. Even then, I don't know how this is in the US, but here university level schools don't really focus on the programming languages, but they focus more on managing a software creation process, writing technical and functional documentation, diagrams, architectures, release management, and then there comes programming. It is nice if students can get a copy of CF cheaper with a school license, but to let schools teach CF, rather not. Every Java developer can program CF, not every CF programmer can do Java. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205483 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
but to let schools teach CF, rather not umm ok Micha, if they shouldn't be taught in school where should they be taught? In the bathroom at the local pub? When are you gunna realize that not every person who uses cfm or java does what you do?? Heres the point Micha, ok we'll use someone I know because he's the perfect example of what my reasoning is all about. http://www.thisreason.com/ ok this guy went through graphic design school, as do hundreds of thousands of other ppl every year. Ok he doesn't really know anything about server side language other than how to send an email through his contact form, in which case the graphics instructor gives them a php script to use. So then he graduates and realizes that graphic designers aren't in too high of demand and the pay sucks but he starts to realize that he needs to also know some programming to get a decent job. And well of course he has heard that cfm is really expensive and at his school they gave him a php script, so were is he gunna go to? Why not make cfm available as well and then magic happens, it grows Ok so he's a newbie and sucks, well Micha even you were a newbie who sucked at one time but now 50 yrs later or whatever you don't A) wanna give the newbie a chance to grow and learn or B) help further the use of cfm, so what is your point helping? answer: nothing.. OOP in a much more advanced environment then CF Who gives a rats ass, the world doesn't resolve around OOP and a site wont stop functioning because the developer didnt use OOP. What do you think the actual % of sites is on the web that actually need that type of architecture or that ACTUALLY use it? not every CF programmer can do Java. I'm sure that breaks their poor uneducated hearts :( FYI~ not every cf programmer needs to do java, I'm pretty sure the only one who needs to is you ;) hehe I mean you bitch about not enough people using cfm but then condemn anyone new from the rights to learn it, WTF do you want? Do you even know there is a whole big world that exists outside of your head? seriously dude From: Micha Schopman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 2:34 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? I disagree, in the least because the job opportunities for C, C++, C# and Java are much and much larger than those for CF developers. Second, with C# or Java you learn to work with true OOP in a much more advanced environment then CF will ever be. If you for example look at protection levels for every action you take, it will force you to think about the architecture of your application in a way CF will probably never reach. Even then, I don't know how this is in the US, but here university level schools don't really focus on the programming languages, but they focus more on managing a software creation process, writing technical and functional documentation, diagrams, architectures, release management, and then there comes programming. It is nice if students can get a copy of CF cheaper with a school license, but to let schools teach CF, rather not. Every Java developer can program CF, not every CF programmer can do Java. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205484 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Easy dave, take a nip of your water ... breathe in ... breathe out ;) Nobody is attacking anyone. If you would suggest that CF should be part of teaching in schools, on which education would you like to see it? Cooking? DTP? neither of them have anything to do with programming except setting up the microwave by pressing some buttons. If I ask you, where did you learn CF, should I like you did throw with bathroom, or local pub? I'd probably say, in practice on the job. I think a lot of CF developers nowadays just happened to worked with the language. Like I said, we have specific educations here, so proof me wrong. We don't have university classes for PHP, Java, CF, C#, .. what we do have are educations for Computer Sciences where they teach students how to manage, setup and complete a software project without even looking at languages. These are like I previously mentioned the education where there is a big focus on theory. Please try to read carefully what I am trying to say. The foundations for CF programming are too weak in terms of architecturing, which is one of the most importants aspects of software development. I think that is why CF doesn't have a chance in educations. For CF there are specific trainings, and training centers, hence the Macromedia Certified Trainer status. If people as a graphics designer find it hard to learn CF, too bad. I want to fly jets too, but I can't. That is why people make choices in their lives. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205485 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Actually, we have dedicated units in Java, C, assembly and other languages as part of or Computer Science and Computer Engineering degrees and other courses. -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2005 3:23 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? [snip] Like I said, we have specific educations here, so proof me wrong. We don't have university classes for PHP, Java, CF, C#, .. what we do have are educations for Computer Sciences where they teach students how to manage, setup and complete a software project without even looking at languages. These are like I previously mentioned the education where there is a big focus on theory. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205486 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Thank you, but do other people think CF would fit in the unit as a true education? Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205487 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Probably not, and neither would PHP. -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2005 3:37 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Thank you, but do other people think CF would fit in the unit as a true education? ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205488 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
If people as a graphics designer find it hard to learn CF, too bad. I want to fly jets too Well I could fly a helicopter when I was 14 so thats not a good comparison:) I'm breathing just fine dude, obviously our different culture put a barrier between what we are saying. And you too need to read what I was saying. I never once said cfm was to hard for them to learn My point was that the schools obviously use php because its free and readily available, so what if Adobe makes cfml free and readily available to them as well? I never said they would be teach cfm classes but instead of them giving the students there email code in php they could do it in cfm, since it is easier and then these students would be more likely to venture down the cfm highway later and learn wherever. Now who said anything about making software?? The point was the lil tiny web sites then probably do nothing more than send mail, add, update, delete or show records from a database. You don't need OOP for that or make it software or add java to it. When these comparisons are run and all these schools and kids are using PHP for nuthing more than to send mail, how does that accurately describe its use? These same ppl would just as easily use cfm if it was AVAILABLE to them and then they use it down the road, it's simply human nature. Do you understand that there are actually web sites out there that are not enterprise level sites? That you don't need NASA code to run them? That is why people make choices in their lives. yes and its up too all of us to show them what the choices are and what might be best for them instead of cutting them off because you don't understand that the web needs lil web sites as well. Nobody is attacking anyone. I know and I am not attacking you either but as usual you write back with your everything must be enterprise level thinking and try to make a mockery out of what my point was, which certainly I might be dilutional and crazy but it makes sense to me. From: Micha Schopman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 3:23 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Easy dave, take a nip of your water ... breathe in ... breathe out ;) Nobody is attacking anyone. If you would suggest that CF should be part of teaching in schools, on which education would you like to see it? Cooking? DTP? neither of them have anything to do with programming except setting up the microwave by pressing some buttons. If I ask you, where did you learn CF, should I like you did throw with bathroom, or local pub? I'd probably say, in practice on the job. I think a lot of CF developers nowadays just happened to worked with the language. Like I said, we have specific educations here, so proof me wrong. We don't have university classes for PHP, Java, CF, C#, .. what we do have are educations for Computer Sciences where they teach students how to manage, setup and complete a software project without even looking at languages. These are like I previously mentioned the education where there is a big focus on theory. Please try to read carefully what I am trying to say. The foundations for CF programming are too weak in terms of architecturing, which is one of the most importants aspects of software development. I think that is why CF doesn't have a chance in educations. For CF there are specific trainings, and training centers, hence the Macromedia Certified Trainer status. If people as a graphics designer find it hard to learn CF, too bad. I want to fly jets too, but I can't. That is why people make choices in their lives. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205489 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
What makes any of this a true education? I have 3 medical degrees, do you really think to me this stuff would make an education? Now if you want an education the way i see it, lets talk about portosystemic shunt's or cardiomyopathies and how the region of the world you live affect your chances of having a Pulmonary Embolism. That makes java and OOP kids play and just has about as much to do with my comments as yours back at mine. Doesn't matter what we think if it puts food on someones table. From: James Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 3:40 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Probably not, and neither would PHP. -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2005 3:37 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Thank you, but do other people think CF would fit in the unit as a true education? ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205490 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Thank you, but do other people think CF would fit in the unit as a true education? I have some very personal opinions on this. While I really love CF, I would not use CFML to teach programming in schools; for similar reasons I would not use Perl either. I would pick something like Python or Ruby, then move to Java or C#. I often tell people that CFML is a great choice if you want to be productive, not so good if your ultimate goal is to learn programming. You better learn programming with another language (even something like Pascal) and move to CFML later. In italian universities there are topics considered propedeutici (I guess english translation should be propaedeutic). It means they are the basics that allow you to move more easily into more advanced topics, bigger and better things, at a later stage. I don't think CFML could be propaedeutic for programming students. On the other hand, if you don't care about programming but just want to be productive asap, CFML is a great choice. Again, this is just my own opinion, nothing more. Massimo Foti DW tools: http://www.massimocorner.com CF tools: http://www.olimpo.ch/tmt/ ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205491 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
It's funny Massimo, you more than anything got me into moving to cfm :) thanks! And I hear what you are saying but it's still not what my point was. Again I was referencing these people who dont want to be programmers but find out that they do need to learn something to be able to function or get a good job and that is where PHP is HUGE and in all practicality cfm should own that market. What I am saying is to just get it in to these ppl and let them grow into it as they need to instead of php. From: Massimo Foti [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 3:57 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Thank you, but do other people think CF would fit in the unit as a true education? I have some very personal opinions on this. While I really love CF, I would not use CFML to teach programming in schools; for similar reasons I would not use Perl either. I would pick something like Python or Ruby, then move to Java or C#. I often tell people that CFML is a great choice if you want to be productive, not so good if your ultimate goal is to learn programming. You better learn programming with another language (even something like Pascal) and move to CFML later. In italian universities there are topics considered propedeutici (I guess english translation should be propaedeutic). It means they are the basics that allow you to move more easily into more advanced topics, bigger and better things, at a later stage. I don't think CFML could be propaedeutic for programming students. On the other hand, if you don't care about programming but just want to be productive asap, CFML is a great choice. Again, this is just my own opinion, nothing more. Massimo Foti DW tools: http://www.massimocorner.com CF tools: http://www.olimpo.ch/tmt/ ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205492 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
It's funny Massimo, you more than anything got me into moving to cfm :) See, now people will consider me guilty for having you here, stirring trooubles on the list :-)) thanks! I guess the ladies argument played a major role here :-) And I hear what you are saying but it's still not what my point was. I was trying to answer a very specific question from Micha concerning computer science education, a place where, in my opinion, CFML doesn't fit well. Again I was referencing these people who dont want to be programmers but find out that they do need to learn something to be able to function or get a good job Sure, for those people CF is a great choice Massimo Foti DW tools: http://www.massimocorner.com CF tools: http://www.olimpo.ch/tmt/ ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205493 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Because... it's not a true development language? -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 3:37 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Thank you, but do other people think CF would fit in the unit as a true education? Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205494 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
I have some very personal opinions on this. While I really love CF, I would not use CFML to teach programming in schools; for similar reasons I would not use Perl either. I would pick something like Python or Ruby, then move to Java or C#. I often tell people that CFML is a great choice if you want to be productive, not so good if your ultimate goal is to learn programming. You better learn programming with another language (even something like Pascal) and move to CFML later. In italian universities there are topics considered propedeutici (I guess english translation should be propaedeutic). It means they are the basics that allow you to move more easily into more advanced topics, bigger and better things, at a later stage. I don't think CFML could be propaedeutic for programming students. On the other hand, if you don't care about programming but just want to be productive asap, CFML is a great choice. Again, this is just my own opinion, nothing more. I couldn't have said it any better myself. I think that Python is an ideal introductory programming language. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205507 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Because... it's not a true development language? No, because it's not a general-purpose programming language. It's designed to do one thing, and one thing only - write web applications. It's extremely good for this, of course, but an introduction to programming shouldn't focus on one niche. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205508 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
What makes any of this a true education? I have 3 medical degrees, do you really think to me this stuff would make an education? I don't see how that's relevant, exactly, but any profession has basic foundational knowledge that is really required for a full understanding of the profession. Having three medical degrees, would you say that I could be just as knowledgeable about medicine by spending lots of time on WebMD reading what symptoms correspond with what problems? I would hope not. Software engineering, programming, has this sort of foundational knowledge just like any other profession. Speaking as someone who approached programming from a non-professional background, I can't begin to tell you how many conceptual hurdles I had to cross to learn basic CS concepts that any first-year CS student would know. I work with a bunch of CS graduates, and if it weren't for that, I wouldn't know what the hell I was doing. In my experience reviewing others' CF applications, I've found this to be a common problem with CF programmers. They often don't know what the hell they're doing! CF makes it so easy to do the easy things, that people just plow ahead with the hard things without any sort of understanding about what they're doing. Of course, I don't mean to tar all CF programmers with this brush, but I can only say I've made a lot of money reviewing and fixing CF applications built by people with no CS background. That makes java and OOP kids play and just has about as much to do with my comments as yours back at mine. Doesn't matter what we think if it puts food on someones table. Sure it does. During the boom, people could take a three-day introductory CF course, start programming, and rake in the dough without knowing what they were doing. Where are those folks now? They're not putting food on their tables by writing CF, I can tell you that. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205510 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Micha, With all due respect I wasn't advocating if you read my message that they only learn CFML. Most of the university students in Michigan leave knowing several languages, of course they should know c# and java if they're to become employable. I remain unconvinced that learning CF first is going to somehow handicap them in learning advanced languages. In fact I think it's just the opposite, the quick productivity building useful stuff is likely to inspire them as they learn advanced subjects. A great many programmers of my generation first tackled the basic that IBM shipped on the first PC XT's. Somehow using things like GoTo's didn't prevent me from going on to learn other languages with more advanced concepts. I still remain convinced that CF would be a great first language in colleges and with a little effort it could be dominant in that role. Rick Mason On 5/4/05, Micha Schopman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I disagree, in the least because the job opportunities for C, C++, C# and Java are much and much larger than those for CF developers. Second, with C# or Java you learn to work with true OOP in a much more advanced environment then CF will ever be. If you for example look at protection levels for every action you take, it will force you to think about the architecture of your application in a way CF will probably never reach. Even then, I don't know how this is in the US, but here university level schools don't really focus on the programming languages, but they focus more on managing a software creation process, writing technical and functional documentation, diagrams, architectures, release management, and then there comes programming. It is nice if students can get a copy of CF cheaper with a school license, but to let schools teach CF, rather not. Every Java developer can program CF, not every CF programmer can do Java. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205514 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
This may not be a popular statemant, but the preception should be blamed squarely on CF developers. Being that CF is so easy to get into, I've seen my share of horrible buggy apps written by novices... which is usually just blamed on CF as whole. -Adam Yep...you're bang on there Adam. I'm sure that can be said to a certain degree with any language...but CF does make it easy. Heck..I've seen entire files writtten on a single line!! Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205519 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
You mean that's not OK?? lol, yeah how many times have we all had to go back over things that were done by someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to town. Hell, I'm sure I caused some problems for other developers back in the day when I was just getting started with version 3. I'm sure, try as I do, that I still cause some of those sorts of problem when I try to do complex PHP and ASP work that is above my level of proficiency. --Ferg Yep...you're bang on there Adam. I'm sure that can be said to a certain degree with any language...but CF does make it easy. Heck..I've seen entire files writtten on a single line!! Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205523 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
why CF doesn't have a chance in educations. For CF there are specific trainings, and training centers, hence the Macromedia Certified Trainer status. MichaCF is taught elsewherelike by me (not MM certified and never will be) to folks getting re-educated for a new career. .and remember Micha...not all education happens at the university levelthere are tech schools (no I won't debate the quality of these places) and colleges. These places spit out an awful lot of Internet career minded folks...and alot of them come out with PHP experience because it's free and the schools run tight budgets. Dave (am I going to say this out loud)has some good points on CF and missing the education boat ;-) Also...I see this OOP argument come up again and again. We always have to remember that the vast majority of web apps out there are not so vast that they need the level of architecture you're talking about (hell that's why so many are written in PHP). So with better focus on the new learners and getting those that made up their minds that CF was a toy back in the 4.x days to have another look will help CF. Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205525 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to town Oh nice, so now *I'm* going to get blamed. ;-) -Original Message- From: Ken Ferguson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 11:22 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? You mean that's not OK?? lol, yeah how many times have we all had to go back over things that were done by someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to town. Hell, I'm sure I caused some problems for other developers back in the day when I was just getting started with version 3. I'm sure, try as I do, that I still cause some of those sorts of problem when I try to do complex PHP and ASP work that is above my level of proficiency. --Ferg Yep...you're bang on there Adam. I'm sure that can be said to a certain degree with any language...but CF does make it easy. Heck..I've seen entire files writtten on a single line!! Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205526 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
ROFL! I think the WACK is actually rather good for best practices etc - as long as people read the entire thing as they are supposed to. -Original Message- From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2005 11:26 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to town Oh nice, so now *I'm* going to get blamed. ;-) -Original Message- From: Ken Ferguson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 11:22 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? You mean that's not OK?? lol, yeah how many times have we all had to go back over things that were done by someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to town. Hell, I'm sure I caused some problems for other developers back in the day when I was just getting started with version 3. I'm sure, try as I do, that I still cause some of those sorts of problem when I try to do complex PHP and ASP work that is above my level of proficiency. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205531 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
-Original Message- From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] .and remember Micha...not all education happens at the university levelthere are tech schools (no I won't debate the quality of these places) and colleges. These places spit out an awful lot of Internet career minded folks...and alot of them come out with PHP experience because it's free and the schools run tight budgets. The Adobe name could help get inroads in this market. Imagine how many technical / community colleges have graphic design courses solely focused on Photoshop Illustrator and throw in a web design course for good measure. Not imagine being able to tell people in one extra coures you'll be able to do shopping carts and other amazing things, all using Adobe tools, that would get their attention. Just my $0.02, having worked at a college business training department for two years where they *used* to teach CF. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205539 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
LOL, that's funny Ben, not what I meant at all though. The WACK makes it incredibly easy to be productive, even when people don't have much in the way of experience or knowledge. --Ferg James Holmes wrote: ROFL! I think the WACK is actually rather good for best practices etc - as long as people read the entire thing as they are supposed to. -Original Message- From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2005 11:26 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to town Oh nice, so now *I'm* going to get blamed. ;-) -Original Message- From: Ken Ferguson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 11:22 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? You mean that's not OK?? lol, yeah how many times have we all had to go back over things that were done by someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to town. Hell, I'm sure I caused some problems for other developers back in the day when I was just getting started with version 3. I'm sure, try as I do, that I still cause some of those sorts of problem when I try to do complex PHP and ASP work that is above my level of proficiency. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205540 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Maybe that was my problem... ;) I thought the WACK was a code dictionary. Hehe... Really Ben, I don't think you'll ever know the depth of your impact on the CF community. Without the WACK I'm not sure it would have built up the user base in the early days to be what it is today. For me, and for years, your stuff was my only source of information. Now I'm curious... has anyone hand-coded all the samples to create a running copy of Orange Whip Studios? I must admit, I never did... :) Laterz, J On 5/4/05, James Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ROFL! I think the WACK is actually rather good for best practices etc - as long as people read the entire thing as they are supposed to. -Original Message- From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2005 11:26 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to town Oh nice, so now *I'm* going to get blamed. ;-) -- --- - Buy SQLSurveyor! http://www.web-relevant.com/sqlsurveyor Never make your developers open Enterprise Manager again. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205541 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Effectively, you seem to be saying that education establishments should be teaching CF instead of PHP? -Original Message- From: Rick Mason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 10:47 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Micha, With all due respect I wasn't advocating if you read my message that they only learn CFML. Most of the university students in Michigan leave knowing several languages, of course they should know c# and java if they're to become employable. I remain unconvinced that learning CF first is going to somehow handicap them in learning advanced languages. In fact I think it's just the opposite, the quick productivity building useful stuff is likely to inspire them as they learn advanced subjects. A great many programmers of my generation first tackled the basic that IBM shipped on the first PC XT's. Somehow using things like GoTo's didn't prevent me from going on to learn other languages with more advanced concepts. I still remain convinced that CF would be a great first language in colleges and with a little effort it could be dominant in that role. Rick Mason On 5/4/05, Micha Schopman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I disagree, in the least because the job opportunities for C, C++, C# and Java are much and much larger than those for CF developers. Second, with C# or Java you learn to work with true OOP in a much more advanced environment then CF will ever be. If you for example look at protection levels for every action you take, it will force you to think about the architecture of your application in a way CF will probably never reach. Even then, I don't know how this is in the US, but here university level schools don't really focus on the programming languages, but they focus more on managing a software creation process, writing technical and functional documentation, diagrams, architectures, release management, and then there comes programming. It is nice if students can get a copy of CF cheaper with a school license, but to let schools teach CF, rather not. Every Java developer can program CF, not every CF programmer can do Java. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205543 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Get the shit out of your eyes, you simpleton. While this wasn't directed at me, this kind of response really isn't called for. Personally, when I want to insult someone on a mailing list, I try to reach for the rapier rather than the cudgel, if you know what I mean. I did not say that I thought CF would die. On the contrary, I stated that I believed the MM would still invest time and resources into CFMX. After spending tons of $$$ on a WORLD TOUR, why the hell would Macromedia NOT highlight the release on their website? Why spend the money on creating awareness and then not put it front and center on release day (and instead leave a WEEKS old banner for Flash video)? The speedometer graphic was lame and insufficient, and is reflective of the internal view of CFMX. That's all. Riddle me this: why would RedSky get decent attention when it was released? I remember a nice banner and decent info about that release. If I recall, the groundbreaking release of those awesome FireFly flash components got more attention at MM.com!. Well, we can all speculate on this until the cows come home, but why bother? If you believe that MM will still invest time and resources into CFMX, why not just let them choose how they want to handle advertising? What does their internal view of CFMX matter, as long as they still invest the appropriate time and resources into the product? Why do you think you're more qualified to run their marketing than they are? They have a lot of diverse products, and a similarly diverse audience of potential and actual customers. Don't you think that they would spend more time pushing CF if they thought that this would be more profitable than pushing something else? People seem to be in the habit of comparing Macromedia's stewardship of CF to the good ol' days of Allaire. Well, Allaire had how many products? One, really, unless you count Allaire Forums and Spectra - both of which were handled poorly, in my opinion. Oh, I forgot JRun - but neither Allaire nor Macromedia really push that at all, they just used it to build a bunch of other products. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205563 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
On 5/4/05, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: People seem to be in the habit of comparing Macromedia's stewardship of CF to the good ol' days of Allaire. Well, Allaire had how many products? One, really, unless you count Allaire Forums and Spectra - both of which were handled poorly, in my opinion. Oh, I forgot JRun - but neither Allaire nor Macromedia really push that at all, they just used it to build a bunch of other products. Uh... Jrun? What's that? Heh... really, now, boys and girls... Flash/Flex/Central/FlashLite/Flash Mobile/FlashPaper and friends. Jrun/CFMX/WPS... Dreamweaver, and Studio MX 2k4 (which, btw, still includes, by special request, HS+ for us old-school hacks)... RoboDemo/RoboHelp and friends... Breeze... Breeze now has the footing to compete with WebEx and the like. CFMX now has the technological underpinnings to really give traditional J2EE and .NET a run for the money in the Enterprise. Flex has one competitor, which admittedly r0x0rs, and is free, which means that CF/PHP and Flex/OpenLazlo are decent analogies. These things indicate growth. These things indicate momentum. These things are signs that we're on the right track and really shouldn't be wasting time and resources bickering about front-page real estate at MM.comhttp://MM.com. I know I'm blending a couple threads here, but first of all, free CFMX would mean that those who chose BD over CFMX because of the free edition would have more choice, that I would have been able to do at least a dozen more projects than I have in the last year (duh, why didn't I use BD? Dunno... cuz I'm a nitwit I guess.) and those n00bs who use PHP cuz it's free would have their teeth ripped out. I know of several colleges that offer CFMX classes as electives, not part of a CSci program, and that's a fine idea. I never had a CS class in my life... and I've had to struggle a lot. But, in point of fact, it all comes down to market penetration, leverage, and money. As for the screen real estate issue at MM.com... I seriously think that to proclaim to the world that a lack of front-page real estate is a sign of MM's mindset is overreaching yourself a bit, dude... back up a bit and let them speak for themselves. It's a little pushy to be proclaiming what they think for them. Laterz, J -- --- - Buy SQLSurveyor! http://www.web-relevant.com/sqlsurveyor Never make your developers open Enterprise Manager again. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205565 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Calvin, In a word yes. I think ColdFusion offers a better introduction to programming than PHP. Even Adobe can't go toe to toe with Microsoft in marketing CF to corporations. Macromedia always said that CF was a bottom up product. Well I can't think of a better way to get CF in the back door of corporations than to introduce it to thousands of college students. I refuse to believe that it will cripple them from going on to learn OOP and advanced languages. Rick Mason On 5/4/05, Calvin Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Effectively, you seem to be saying that education establishments should be teaching CF instead of PHP? -Original Message- From: Rick Mason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 10:47 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Micha, With all due respect I wasn't advocating if you read my message that they only learn CFML. Most of the university students in Michigan leave knowing several languages, of course they should know c# and java if they're to become employable. I remain unconvinced that learning CF first is going to somehow handicap them in learning advanced languages. In fact I think it's just the opposite, the quick productivity building useful stuff is likely to inspire them as they learn advanced subjects. A great many programmers of my generation first tackled the basic that IBM shipped on the first PC XT's. Somehow using things like GoTo's didn't prevent me from going on to learn other languages with more advanced concepts. I still remain convinced that CF would be a great first language in colleges and with a little effort it could be dominant in that role. Rick Mason On 5/4/05, Micha Schopman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I disagree, in the least because the job opportunities for C, C++, C# and Java are much and much larger than those for CF developers. Second, with C# or Java you learn to work with true OOP in a much more advanced environment then CF will ever be. If you for example look at protection levels for every action you take, it will force you to think about the architecture of your application in a way CF will probably never reach. Even then, I don't know how this is in the US, but here university level schools don't really focus on the programming languages, but they focus more on managing a software creation process, writing technical and functional documentation, diagrams, architectures, release management, and then there comes programming. It is nice if students can get a copy of CF cheaper with a school license, but to let schools teach CF, rather not. Every Java developer can program CF, not every CF programmer can do Java. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205596 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
aggghhh! Doesn't anybody but me get what dave (not Dave W.) is saying!!! It's not that CFM should be taught as the first langauge.just simply that it should be shown to students as an option. Today in class boys and girls we are going to have a look at CFML, PHP, and ASP as examples of languages to use for the web. Here's how you process a form in each and mail the results to someone This is radically different that what Micha/Massimio/Dave W are on about. I think we'd all agree to what you bunch are saying...CF is not to be used as an example of proper programming...but that ain't what Dave the disruptor is on about ;-) Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205598 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to town Oh nice, so now *I'm* going to get blamed. ;-) LOL...I was waiting for that one ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com/54 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205598 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Why should CF be used as an option in a Computer Science curriculum over such languages as Java or C#? There is no reason at all. Beginning students do start out with procedural programming, just to learn the basics - primitive datatypes (int, float, char, string) and operators. They learn how to manipulate a single piece of data (string or number) and then groups of data using the array. The entire time, they are not worried about form structures, variables passing out of scope, request/response, or anything that is common to internet programming. Furthermore, they do worry about datatypes and proper operations on those datatypes. They learn compilation, execution, and the difference between interpretation and compilation. Later on, objects and structures come into play. Still data manipulation is focused on - not what the language is, or its idiosyncrasies. Furthermore, data output is usually limited to console, command-line output - not Windows or web pages, just line by line. Later on, file output is done and bit manipulation at the file level is learned. Pointers and direct memory management come into play as well, and must be used to accomplish later assignments. The students use the same language they started with from beginning to end, unless the instructor allows advanced students to pick their language. I chose to use VB 6.0 to write a compiler that blew away the rest of my class but simply because it looked good and they didn't know how to write in a visual language, not because it was so different than theirs. A competent student doesn't need to be taught another programming language in order to start using it. CF does not accomplish most of what needs to be learned in a CS environment. It's a tool for writing web pages on internet/intranet. It gets the job done, depending on the job. CF does many things for you - precisely why a curriculum shouldn't use it. It's why people can learn CF without knowing the nuts and bolts of programming. It's also why those people don't get past CF. I'm not even sure it should be an option in that curriculum. - Matt Small ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205603 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
-Original Message- From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] It's not that CFM should be taught as the first langauge. just simply that it should be shown to students as an option. I think I've mentioned it here in the past, the local community college here has a web application development course where they teach ASP PHP. The webmaster (a few years ago) didn't consider CF a real language was it was just an extension on top of Java so you might as well just use Java, right? That belief is very prevelant and MM are missing out a great deal by not marketing against it. If you can teach someone that they can create their database, do a simple cfquery then cfoutput loop they'll be happy, and even more-so when you show them cfqueryparam and explain they can avoid many security problems using it. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205614 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
There's that 'real' thing again. -Original Message- From: Damien McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 5:59 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? -Original Message- From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] It's not that CFM should be taught as the first langauge. just simply that it should be shown to students as an option. I think I've mentioned it here in the past, the local community college here has a web application development course where they teach ASP PHP. The webmaster (a few years ago) didn't consider CF a real language was it was just an extension on top of Java so you might as well just use Java, right? That belief is very prevelant and MM are missing out a great deal by not marketing against it. If you can teach someone that they can create their database, do a simple cfquery then cfoutput loop they'll be happy, and even more-so when you show them cfqueryparam and explain they can avoid many security problems using it. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205622 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
I did see the promo badge for CFMX 7 during release time, but what was disappointing was that CFMX 7 didn't get the full FMA for the week of release, or even the day of release. AFAIK, nothing else was released or 'new' at the same time. The full ads I rotated through were for things that had ads up for the previous month(s) and even after. I visit macromedia.com a lot, as I use Flash, Dreamweaver, Fireworks as well as ColdFusion. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Sean Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 7:22 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? On 5/2/05, Alex Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When CFMX7 was launched, I queried as to why the only marketing on MM's site was a small picture and some text in the center Products column. I just spoke with the web producer responsible for managing ColdFusion-related content on the site. He said that the blue speedometer promo badge for CFMX 7 was featured on the homepage (and you'll have seen it all over the CF-related pages on the site). He also said that certain international macromedia.com homepages included a full FMA (rotating banner ad) for CFMX 7. Remember that Macromedia has a lot of products and therefore a lot of competition for FMA and promo badge space - marketing has to balance each and every campaign in order to get the most bang for their buck, so to speak... note type=purely personal I get pretty ticked off by certain CFers feeling slighted every time that Flash or Breeze or whatever gets a mention but CF is not mentioned in the same article. Someone recently complained that the news article about Flash on mobiles (Stephen Elop's piece, I think) didn't mention ColdFusion but did mention Dreamweaver. It was a news item aimed at the business market and so it pushed the business value of Flash on mobiles and mentioned a reference point that those business users might recognize (Dreamweaver). There would have been no point in mentioning CF in such an article. Try not to get blinded by your own personal evangelism about CF (or any other technology)! /note And, yes, stop being so paranoid, OK? :) -- Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/ Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205356 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Well put. A rotating banner on MM's site is probably the least effective marketing they could have for CF. Does everyone already forget the grueling world tour they sent Ben on before the release of 7. I don't think I've ever seen a tour like that for any other MM product before. The sky isn't falling. Your career does not rest on a rotating flash ad. -Adam On 5/2/05, Sean Corfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/2/05, Alex Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When CFMX7 was launched, I queried as to why the only marketing on MM's site was a small picture and some text in the center Products column. I just spoke with the web producer responsible for managing ColdFusion-related content on the site. He said that the blue speedometer promo badge for CFMX 7 was featured on the homepage (and you'll have seen it all over the CF-related pages on the site). He also said that certain international macromedia.com homepages included a full FMA (rotating banner ad) for CFMX 7. Remember that Macromedia has a lot of products and therefore a lot of competition for FMA and promo badge space - marketing has to balance each and every campaign in order to get the most bang for their buck, so to speak... note type=purely personal I get pretty ticked off by certain CFers feeling slighted every time that Flash or Breeze or whatever gets a mention but CF is not mentioned in the same article. Someone recently complained that the news article about Flash on mobiles (Stephen Elop's piece, I think) didn't mention ColdFusion but did mention Dreamweaver. It was a news item aimed at the business market and so it pushed the business value of Flash on mobiles and mentioned a reference point that those business users might recognize (Dreamweaver). There would have been no point in mentioning CF in such an article. Try not to get blinded by your own personal evangelism about CF (or any other technology)! /note And, yes, stop being so paranoid, OK? :) -- Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/ Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205361 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Sean Corfield wrote: On 5/2/05, Alex Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When CFMX7 was launched, I queried as to why the only marketing on MM's site was a small picture and some text in the center Products column. I just spoke with the web producer responsible for managing ColdFusion-related content on the site. He said that the blue speedometer promo badge for CFMX 7 was featured on the homepage (and you'll have seen it all over the CF-related pages on the site). He also said that certain international macromedia.com homepages included a full FMA (rotating banner ad) for CFMX 7. Remember that Macromedia has a lot of products and therefore a lot of competition for FMA and promo badge space - marketing has to balance each and every campaign in order to get the most bang for their buck, so to speak... Absolute, unabated hogwash. Notice I wasn't asking why CFMX didn't get top billing 100% of the time, I was asking why CFMX 0% exposure at the top of the page. If I recall correctly, it was that same old tired Volvo banner that ran for WEEKS before the launch of CFM that was still showing. Are you telling me that showing the CFMX banner to 1 in 5 visitors would hurt the sales of the products?! note type=purely personal I get pretty ticked off by certain CFers feeling slighted every time that Flash or Breeze or whatever gets a mention but CF is not mentioned in the same article. Someone recently complained that the news article about Flash on mobiles (Stephen Elop's piece, I think) didn't mention ColdFusion but did mention Dreamweaver. It was a news item aimed at the business market and so it pushed the business value of Flash on mobiles and mentioned a reference point that those business users might recognize (Dreamweaver). There would have been no point in mentioning CF in such an article. Try not to get blinded by your own personal evangelism about CF (or any other technology)! /note And, yes, stop being so paranoid, OK? :) Forgive me for being a little obtuse here, Sean, but this, too, is drivel. The comparison is totally irrelevent. I was referring to a product CREATED BY Macromedia, MARKETED by Macromedia and SOLD by Macromedia. I wasn't suggesting that MACR mention CFMX on the Flash product pages. Nor was I stating that CFMX should be mentioned in the same breath as Flash or other IDE tools. I just found it odd that on the launch day of a brand new server product, hyped for MONTHS with all kinds of hush-hush NDAs and the like, that it woul get more than a 60x60 pixel image of a speedometer to launch it. I think the lack of fanfare reflects MM's view of the product, and what direction it would take when Adobe takes over. No paranoia here, just some observations from someone who's used ColdFusion from the 3.0 days. Good day. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205368 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Get the shit out of your eyes, you simpleton. I did not say that I thought CF would die. On the contrary, I stated that I believed the MM would still invest time and resources into CFMX. After spending tons of $$$ on a WORLD TOUR, why the hell would Macromedia NOT highlight the release on their website? Why spend the money on creating awareness and then not put it front and center on release day (and instead leave a WEEKS old banner for Flash video)? The speedometer graphic was lame and insufficient, and is reflective of the internal view of CFMX. That's all. Riddle me this: why would RedSky get decent attention when it was released? I remember a nice banner and decent info about that release. If I recall, the groundbreaking release of those awesome FireFly flash components got more attention at MM.com!. Adrocknaphobia wrote: Well put. A rotating banner on MM's site is probably the least effective marketing they could have for CF. Does everyone already forget the grueling world tour they sent Ben on before the release of 7. I don't think I've ever seen a tour like that for any other MM product before. The sky isn't falling. Your career does not rest on a rotating flash ad. -Adam ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205408 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
You're good with the dramatics! *Danger*..ON NO! Give me a break! Hide! Put away your wireless keyboards! -- Sean wrote: note type=purely personal I get pretty ticked off by certain CFers feeling slighted every time that Flash or Breeze or whatever gets a mention but CF is not mentioned in the same article -- Not even relevant. I was referring to the actual launch date of a long anticipated and much hyped unique server product, not some shitty write up on serverwatch.com or zdnet.com. Seems like this has touched a nerve with the Macromedia cult. John Dowdell wrote: Sean Corfield wrote: note type=purely personal I get pretty ticked off by certain CFers feeling slighted every time that Flash or Breeze or whatever gets a mention but CF is not mentioned in the same article hah! *I'm* ticked off that Sean didn't mention that I noticed the same thing too...! :D :D (Seriously, there *is* a danger to such posts -- I've seen teams come away from reading such threads with the feeling Wow, I don't think any feasible possibility could ever satisfy this crowd, so why bother trying? The entire mailking list ends up with less influence that way. I haven't seen this with the CF group here, but I *have* seen it in the past with other software. Smacking down such posts *does* perform a public good, as harsh as it may seem to the original poster ;-) jd ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205410 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Alex, You have further proved my original point with your incessant rants. This is not your blog. No one cares. It is such a minor issue, it's not worth taking about... yet again. This entire subject was covered in depth on release day. Search the archives and find solace that you are not the only paranoid developer to focus on such minuscule unimportant issues. -Adam On 5/3/05, Alex Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Get the shit out of your eyes, you simpleton. I did not say that I thought CF would die. On the contrary, I stated that I believed the MM would still invest time and resources into CFMX. After spending tons of $$$ on a WORLD TOUR, why the hell would Macromedia NOT highlight the release on their website? Why spend the money on creating awareness and then not put it front and center on release day (and instead leave a WEEKS old banner for Flash video)? The speedometer graphic was lame and insufficient, and is reflective of the internal view of CFMX. That's all. Riddle me this: why would RedSky get decent attention when it was released? I remember a nice banner and decent info about that release. If I recall, the groundbreaking release of those awesome FireFly flash components got more attention at MM.com!. Adrocknaphobia wrote: Well put. A rotating banner on MM's site is probably the least effective marketing they could have for CF. Does everyone already forget the grueling world tour they sent Ben on before the release of 7. I don't think I've ever seen a tour like that for any other MM product before. The sky isn't falling. Your career does not rest on a rotating flash ad. -Adam ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205413 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Honestly Alex...do you think banner ads are what sell CF...if so...think again ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205415 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Alex says: I was referring to a product CREATED BY Macromedia Holy shit!!! MM created coldfusion Damn and to think they been telling us all these years that they bought it from Alaire, I can't believe I fell for their lies!! Oh wait, I think you mean they took the space out of the name to make it coldfusion from cold fusion, I gotcha now, good catch u sly fox ;) Absolute, unabated hogwash no shit!! but in reference to you not Sean, I have a gut feeling Sean may have inside info to why things are ;) And if you don't like it, boo hoo 2 u! I understand you would like to see it advertised more but obviously MM knows WTF they are doing with it, I mean after all it has been around longer than really anything else and really isn't faltering, for gawds sakes it isn't a panty ad, you don't got to see it all the time to keep your morning salute! From: Alex Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:34 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Sean Corfield wrote: On 5/2/05, Alex Sherwood wrote: When CFMX7 was launched, I queried as to why the only marketing on MM's site was a small picture and some text in the center Products column. I just spoke with the web producer responsible for managing ColdFusion-related content on the site. He said that the blue speedometer promo badge for CFMX 7 was featured on the homepage (and you'll have seen it all over the CF-related pages on the site). He also said that certain international macromedia.com homepages included a full FMA (rotating banner ad) for CFMX 7. Remember that Macromedia has a lot of products and therefore a lot of competition for FMA and promo badge space - marketing has to balance each and every campaign in order to get the most bang for their buck, so to speak... Absolute, unabated hogwash. Notice I wasn't asking why CFMX didn't get top billing 100% of the time, I was asking why CFMX 0% exposure at the top of the page. If I recall correctly, it was that same old tired Volvo banner that ran for WEEKS before the launch of CFM that was still showing. Are you telling me that showing the CFMX banner to 1 in 5 visitors would hurt the sales of the products?! I get pretty ticked off by certain CFers feeling slighted every time that Flash or Breeze or whatever gets a mention but CF is not mentioned in the same article. Someone recently complained that the news article about Flash on mobiles (Stephen Elop's piece, I think) didn't mention ColdFusion but did mention Dreamweaver. It was a news item aimed at the business market and so it pushed the business value of Flash on mobiles and mentioned a reference point that those business users might recognize (Dreamweaver). There would have been no point in mentioning CF in such an article. Try not to get blinded by your own personal evangelism about CF (or any other technology)! And, yes, stop being so paranoid, OK? :) Forgive me for being a little obtuse here, Sean, but this, too, is drivel. The comparison is totally irrelevent. I was referring to a product CREATED BY Macromedia, MARKETED by Macromedia and SOLD by Macromedia. I wasn't suggesting that MACR mention CFMX on the Flash product pages. Nor was I stating that CFMX should be mentioned in the same breath as Flash or other IDE tools. I just found it odd that on the launch day of a brand new server product, hyped for MONTHS with all kinds of hush-hush NDAs and the like, that it woul get more than a 60x60 pixel image of a speedometer to launch it. I think the lack of fanfare reflects MM's view of the product, and what direction it would take when Adobe takes over. No paranoia here, just some observations from someone who's used ColdFusion from the 3.0 days. Good day. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205421 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
To turn this already highly flamable thread into something more usefull, how do people think CF should grow, do you think it needs more attention? Does it lack important features or should CF be merely a keep it alive product. Looking forward to the merge where people suggested that this allowed more marketing of the products and where Kevin Lynch stated CF is a core business product, and looking at the comments posted in this thread, would it suit CF to be marketed more? Why would they spend more on CF with marketing if already other products are marketed more? Should CF even be marketed, with the chance of losing its type of being a niche product ? Would it fit CF if there was a larger community, maybe with a free standard version of CF and the enterprise version as the product doing the sales? Just some food for thought, please discuss this with arguments. Micha From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 5/3/2005 8:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Honestly Alex...do you think banner ads are what sell CF...if so...think again ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205425 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Why does everyone assume this? I never ever stated directly or indirectly that a lack of a banner at MM.com for CFMX7 would hurt sales. I was only commenting on why MM *wouldn't* devote more than a small speedometer graphic to the launch of their premier application server product. That's all. My observation wasn't to forecast the future lack of sales, but rather to shed light on the internal view of the product - that MM saw fit to give it 0% space at the top of the page. I'll tell you what, If I were on the CFMX development team, and launch day came and there was only a 60x60 pixel graphic of a speedometer to announce my blood, sweat and tears, I would shit the proverbial Ipod Shuffle! Bryan Stevenson wrote: Honestly Alex...do you think banner ads are what sell CF...if so...think again ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205426 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
I know I should not respond to this thread, I know I should not respond to this thread, I know I should not respond to this thread, but arrrgghhh! For what it is worth, I agree, there should have been a big flashy banner. And I voiced this opinion before we shipped. Not that I thought it would make any difference whatsoever to CF sales (it did not, and CF sales are pretty darned good BTW, heck they are up since we did not run the banner!), but the reason I said that we needed it was that if we did not run one we'd keep hearing look, it is proof that CF is unloved. And although these recurring threads prove that I was right, that apparently was insufficient reason to place a banner there. Oh, this may surprise some of you, but Macromedia sells lots and lots of products, and every product team wants banner space and marketing real estate, and most can't get everything they want. It's reality. Dedicated DW users feel that DW does not get enough banner space, just like dedicated CF users feel that CF does not get enough banner space ... you get the idea. So what to do? Not all products get (nor should get) the exact same type of marketing, teams have to do what works best for them. And for CF roadshows (including the tours that someone mentioned earlier), tons of customer calls, big wide-open beta programs, and lots of face-to-face interaction has proven to be far more effective than banner ads. And CFMX7 sales to date prove that we did exactly what we needed to do (and thus plan on doing lots more of it). And yes, I still think we should have ran banner ads, just so we'd not be having this very distracting conversation yet again. --- Ben -Original Message- From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:27 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Alex says: I was referring to a product CREATED BY Macromedia Holy shit!!! MM created coldfusion Damn and to think they been telling us all these years that they bought it from Alaire, I can't believe I fell for their lies!! Oh wait, I think you mean they took the space out of the name to make it coldfusion from cold fusion, I gotcha now, good catch u sly fox ;) Absolute, unabated hogwash no shit!! but in reference to you not Sean, I have a gut feeling Sean may have inside info to why things are ;) And if you don't like it, boo hoo 2 u! I understand you would like to see it advertised more but obviously MM knows WTF they are doing with it, I mean after all it has been around longer than really anything else and really isn't faltering, for gawds sakes it isn't a panty ad, you don't got to see it all the time to keep your morning salute! From: Alex Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:34 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Sean Corfield wrote: On 5/2/05, Alex Sherwood wrote: When CFMX7 was launched, I queried as to why the only marketing on MM's site was a small picture and some text in the center Products column. I just spoke with the web producer responsible for managing ColdFusion-related content on the site. He said that the blue speedometer promo badge for CFMX 7 was featured on the homepage (and you'll have seen it all over the CF-related pages on the site). He also said that certain international macromedia.com homepages included a full FMA (rotating banner ad) for CFMX 7. Remember that Macromedia has a lot of products and therefore a lot of competition for FMA and promo badge space - marketing has to balance each and every campaign in order to get the most bang for their buck, so to speak... Absolute, unabated hogwash. Notice I wasn't asking why CFMX didn't get top billing 100% of the time, I was asking why CFMX 0% exposure at the top of the page. If I recall correctly, it was that same old tired Volvo banner that ran for WEEKS before the launch of CFM that was still showing. Are you telling me that showing the CFMX banner to 1 in 5 visitors would hurt the sales of the products?! I get pretty ticked off by certain CFers feeling slighted every time that Flash or Breeze or whatever gets a mention but CF is not mentioned in the same article. Someone recently complained that the news article about Flash on mobiles (Stephen Elop's piece, I think) didn't mention ColdFusion but did mention Dreamweaver. It was a news item aimed at the business market and so it pushed the business value of Flash on mobiles and mentioned a reference point that those business users might recognize (Dreamweaver). There would have been no point in mentioning CF in such an article. Try not to get blinded by your own personal evangelism about CF (or any other technology)! And, yes, stop being so paranoid, OK? :) Forgive me for being a little obtuse here, Sean, but this, too, is drivel. The comparison is totally irrelevent. I was referring
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Based on my experience: One issue that, IMO, can stand some increased awareness is security. If I had a nickel for every time I had to sit through a ColdFusion is inherently insecure lecture from some manager with a self-assumed programming background, I wouldn't be a programmer. I'd just buy Microsoft and retire. *I* know that you can develop secure web applications in ColdFusion- or insecure ones, if you so decide. And *I* know that the mindset of If it's Microsoft, it's automatically secure is a load of rubbish. This isn't MS-bashing, either. A web-app is as secure or insecure as the practices of the developer(s). Sometimes, I feel like I'm the only one who's figured this out, though. I've even been told that the U.S. Navy (I used to work for a government contracting company) won't touch CF because it isn't Certified Secure- whatever that's supposed to mean. Now, that being said, the manager who told me that had a well-deserved reputation for making stuff up when he didn't have any facts at hand, or when the real fact contradicted his opinions, but it sums up probably the biggest issue with CF that I've encountered. Not the cost, or the extra effort to install and configure, but the fact that many of the decision-makers I've encountered still regard CF as a toy. Matt Osbun Web Developer Health Systems, International -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 1:43 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? To turn this already highly flamable thread into something more usefull, how do people think CF should grow, do you think it needs more attention? Does it lack important features or should CF be merely a keep it alive product. Looking forward to the merge where people suggested that this allowed more marketing of the products and where Kevin Lynch stated CF is a core business product, and looking at the comments posted in this thread, would it suit CF to be marketed more? Why would they spend more on CF with marketing if already other products are marketed more? Should CF even be marketed, with the chance of losing its type of being a niche product ? Would it fit CF if there was a larger community, maybe with a free standard version of CF and the enterprise version as the product doing the sales? Just some food for thought, please discuss this with arguments. Micha From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 5/3/2005 8:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Honestly Alex...do you think banner ads are what sell CF...if so...think again ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205429 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Careful, Ben, you run the risk of being called a simpleton. -Original Message- From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:46 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? I know I should not respond to this thread, I know I should not respond to this thread, I know I should not respond to this thread, but arrrgghhh! ...snip.. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205428 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Hi Ben, I value your opinion, so I'm glad to see that you at least agree with me in principal. Also, you'll notice that I just referenced launch week - not *permanent* space at the top of MM's front page. And, not even 100% of the space at the top - just a space in the rotation of the banner ads - some that were weeks old. You just confirmed what I had assumed - that there was concscious decision on MACR's part to NOT place a banner ad at the top - even if it were 1 in a rotation of 3 or 4 for other MM products. This is what bewildered me. I wasn't forecasting the end of CFMX, or gloomy sales, or a dastardly takeover by Adobe! -- Alex Ben Forta wrote: I know I should not respond to this thread, I know I should not respond to this thread, I know I should not respond to this thread, but arrrgghhh! For what it is worth, I agree, there should have been a big flashy banner. And I voiced this opinion before we shipped. Not that I thought it would make any difference whatsoever to CF sales (it did not, and CF sales are pretty darned good BTW, heck they are up since we did not run the banner!), but the reason I said that we needed it was that if we did not run one we'd keep hearing look, it is proof that CF is unloved. And although these recurring threads prove that I was right, that apparently was insufficient reason to place a banner there. Oh, this may surprise some of you, but Macromedia sells lots and lots of products, and every product team wants banner space and marketing real estate, and most can't get everything they want. It's reality. Dedicated DW users feel that DW does not get enough banner space, just like dedicated CF users feel that CF does not get enough banner space ... you get the idea. So what to do? Not all products get (nor should get) the exact same type of marketing, teams have to do what works best for them. And for CF roadshows (including the tours that someone mentioned earlier), tons of customer calls, big wide-open beta programs, and lots of face-to-face interaction has proven to be far more effective than banner ads. And CFMX7 sales to date prove that we did exactly what we needed to do (and thus plan on doing lots more of it). And yes, I still think we should have ran banner ads, just so we'd not be having this very distracting conversation yet again. --- Ben ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205430 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
That tears it. If Macromedia wasn't dissing ColdFusion, Ben would have posted sooner. Glad I stocked up on canned goods and had that extra freezer put in. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205431 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
and gas for the generator. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205433 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
and stocked up on ammo. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205432 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
If you can afford gas, you're not a CF developer :( -Original Message- From: Matt Robertson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 3:06 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? .and gas for the generator. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205436 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Matt, I think you are correct about your old boss. He was most likely referring to a certification and accreditation process for the server. Anything that runs on a secure government network must be approved before it use. Maybe at that time the Navy hadn't approved CF. Working for the Department of State (and currently writing the documents to get CFMX7 approved for use) it's not a hard task. It's just a pain and requires alot of documentation. Right now, only Flash Player 6 is approved for use. However that does not mean to say that Flash Player 7 isn't secure. It just means no one has taken the time to write up the appropriate papers. I can also say I personally know that CF is being used heavily in DoD and DHS. Heck DoD deployed Breeze to mobile communication units in the field. DoD is known for being the first in the government to embrace technology, so I'm not sure why the Navy would be any different. -Adam On 5/3/05, Matt Osbun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Based on my experience: One issue that, IMO, can stand some increased awareness is security. If I had a nickel for every time I had to sit through a ColdFusion is inherently insecure lecture from some manager with a self-assumed programming background, I wouldn't be a programmer. I'd just buy Microsoft and retire. *I* know that you can develop secure web applications in ColdFusion- or insecure ones, if you so decide. And *I* know that the mindset of If it's Microsoft, it's automatically secure is a load of rubbish. This isn't MS-bashing, either. A web-app is as secure or insecure as the practices of the developer(s). Sometimes, I feel like I'm the only one who's figured this out, though. I've even been told that the U.S. Navy (I used to work for a government contracting company) won't touch CF because it isn't Certified Secure- whatever that's supposed to mean. Now, that being said, the manager who told me that had a well-deserved reputation for making stuff up when he didn't have any facts at hand, or when the real fact contradicted his opinions, but it sums up probably the biggest issue with CF that I've encountered. Not the cost, or the extra effort to install and configure, but the fact that many of the decision-makers I've encountered still regard CF as a toy. Matt Osbun Web Developer Health Systems, International -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 1:43 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? To turn this already highly flamable thread into something more usefull, how do people think CF should grow, do you think it needs more attention? Does it lack important features or should CF be merely a keep it alive product. Looking forward to the merge where people suggested that this allowed more marketing of the products and where Kevin Lynch stated CF is a core business product, and looking at the comments posted in this thread, would it suit CF to be marketed more? Why would they spend more on CF with marketing if already other products are marketed more? Should CF even be marketed, with the chance of losing its type of being a niche product ? Would it fit CF if there was a larger community, maybe with a free standard version of CF and the enterprise version as the product doing the sales? Just some food for thought, please discuss this with arguments. Micha From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 5/3/2005 8:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Honestly Alex...do you think banner ads are what sell CF...if so...think again ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205437 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
If you want to hear some complaining about lack of love from MM, subscribe to a Director list. Woe is them! On 5/3/05, Ben Forta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dedicated DW users feel that DW does not get enough banner space, just like dedicated CF users feel that CF does not get enough banner space ... you get the idea. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205438 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Unless you're contracted to work for the government. Heh. -- //SIGNED// Chris Montgomery, Contractor HQ AF Security Forces Center, Antiterrorism Branch 1517 Billy Mitchell Blvd, Bldg 954 Lackland AFB, TX 78236-0119 DSN 312.945.7034 Comm 210.925.7034 -Original Message- From: Dave Francis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:13 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? If you can afford gas, you're not a CF developer :( ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205439 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
so I'm not sure why the Navy would be any different They are not. There is an incredible amount of CF use within the Navy, and I myself have visited lots of Navy sites briefing them on CFMX7. There will always be the occasional voice of doubt and opposition, but in general, the Navy is using CF on both public and secure sites (and even on local networks running on ships!). --- Ben -Original Message- From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 3:48 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Matt, I think you are correct about your old boss. He was most likely referring to a certification and accreditation process for the server. Anything that runs on a secure government network must be approved before it use. Maybe at that time the Navy hadn't approved CF. Working for the Department of State (and currently writing the documents to get CFMX7 approved for use) it's not a hard task. It's just a pain and requires alot of documentation. Right now, only Flash Player 6 is approved for use. However that does not mean to say that Flash Player 7 isn't secure. It just means no one has taken the time to write up the appropriate papers. I can also say I personally know that CF is being used heavily in DoD and DHS. Heck DoD deployed Breeze to mobile communication units in the field. DoD is known for being the first in the government to embrace technology, so I'm not sure why the Navy would be any different. -Adam On 5/3/05, Matt Osbun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Based on my experience: One issue that, IMO, can stand some increased awareness is security. If I had a nickel for every time I had to sit through a ColdFusion is inherently insecure lecture from some manager with a self-assumed programming background, I wouldn't be a programmer. I'd just buy Microsoft and retire. *I* know that you can develop secure web applications in ColdFusion- or insecure ones, if you so decide. And *I* know that the mindset of If it's Microsoft, it's automatically secure is a load of rubbish. This isn't MS-bashing, either. A web-app is as secure or insecure as the practices of the developer(s). Sometimes, I feel like I'm the only one who's figured this out, though. I've even been told that the U.S. Navy (I used to work for a government contracting company) won't touch CF because it isn't Certified Secure- whatever that's supposed to mean. Now, that being said, the manager who told me that had a well-deserved reputation for making stuff up when he didn't have any facts at hand, or when the real fact contradicted his opinions, but it sums up probably the biggest issue with CF that I've encountered. Not the cost, or the extra effort to install and configure, but the fact that many of the decision-makers I've encountered still regard CF as a toy. Matt Osbun Web Developer Health Systems, International -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 1:43 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? To turn this already highly flamable thread into something more usefull, how do people think CF should grow, do you think it needs more attention? Does it lack important features or should CF be merely a keep it alive product. Looking forward to the merge where people suggested that this allowed more marketing of the products and where Kevin Lynch stated CF is a core business product, and looking at the comments posted in this thread, would it suit CF to be marketed more? Why would they spend more on CF with marketing if already other products are marketed more? Should CF even be marketed, with the chance of losing its type of being a niche product ? Would it fit CF if there was a larger community, maybe with a free standard version of CF and the enterprise version as the product doing the sales? Just some food for thought, please discuss this with arguments. Micha From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 5/3/2005 8:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Honestly Alex...do you think banner ads are what sell CF...if so...think again ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205440 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
I don't know what the certification status of CF is with the Navy these days, but I know of at least one app where they were running CF. A couple years back, some Navy contractors illicitly procured the code from the Air Force office where I work now and set up their own version of our Vulnerability Assessment Management Program (VAMP). The guy I replaced in the office where I work now originally authored the Air Force's VAMP program back in 1998 and it has survived, until now. Alas, AF has decided to switch to a DOD-wide implementation run out of the Pentagon, and which is implemented in Java on Websphere, so I'll be scanning the want ads again soon. Time to go dust off my resume... -- //SIGNED// Chris Montgomery, Contractor HQ AF Security Forces Center, Antiterrorism Branch 1517 Billy Mitchell Blvd, Bldg 954 Lackland AFB, TX 78236-0119 DSN 312.945.7034 Comm 210.925.7034 -Original Message- From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:48 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Matt, I think you are correct about your old boss. He was most likely referring to a certification and accreditation process for the server. Anything that runs on a secure government network must be approved before it use. Maybe at that time the Navy hadn't approved CF. Working for the Department of State (and currently writing the documents to get CFMX7 approved for use) it's not a hard task. It's just a pain and requires alot of documentation. Right now, only Flash Player 6 is approved for use. However that does not mean to say that Flash Player 7 isn't secure. It just means no one has taken the time to write up the appropriate papers. I can also say I personally know that CF is being used heavily in DoD and DHS. Heck DoD deployed Breeze to mobile communication units in the field. DoD is known for being the first in the government to embrace technology, so I'm not sure why the Navy would be any different. -Adam ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205442 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Which is kinda my point. I've seen a general problem with the perception of CF- not just in one person, or a small group- but the vast majority of the IT Decision-Making types I've come across regard CF as a toy that you'd never use in 'Real Life'. One IT Director was openly amazed that an Intranet could be build and secured in ColdFusion. Another IT Manager asked me when we were going to graduate to the big leagues and move to .ASP for security reasons. These people weren't just bashing non-MS products- they just had an incorrect view of CF. The thread (kinda) started out on marketing CF, and in my experience, this has always been a glaring weakness in how CF is perceived. Matt Osbun Web Developer Health Systems, International -Original Message- From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:56 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? so I'm not sure why the Navy would be any different They are not. There is an incredible amount of CF use within the Navy, and I myself have visited lots of Navy sites briefing them on CFMX7. There will always be the occasional voice of doubt and opposition, but in general, the Navy is using CF on both public and secure sites (and even on local networks running on ships!). --- Ben -Original Message- From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 3:48 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Matt, I think you are correct about your old boss. He was most likely referring to a certification and accreditation process for the server. Anything that runs on a secure government network must be approved before it use. Maybe at that time the Navy hadn't approved CF. Working for the Department of State (and currently writing the documents to get CFMX7 approved for use) it's not a hard task. It's just a pain and requires alot of documentation. Right now, only Flash Player 6 is approved for use. However that does not mean to say that Flash Player 7 isn't secure. It just means no one has taken the time to write up the appropriate papers. I can also say I personally know that CF is being used heavily in DoD and DHS. Heck DoD deployed Breeze to mobile communication units in the field. DoD is known for being the first in the government to embrace technology, so I'm not sure why the Navy would be any different. -Adam On 5/3/05, Matt Osbun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Based on my experience: One issue that, IMO, can stand some increased awareness is security. If I had a nickel for every time I had to sit through a ColdFusion is inherently insecure lecture from some manager with a self-assumed programming background, I wouldn't be a programmer. I'd just buy Microsoft and retire. *I* know that you can develop secure web applications in ColdFusion- or insecure ones, if you so decide. And *I* know that the mindset of If it's Microsoft, it's automatically secure is a load of rubbish. This isn't MS-bashing, either. A web-app is as secure or insecure as the practices of the developer(s). Sometimes, I feel like I'm the only one who's figured this out, though. I've even been told that the U.S. Navy (I used to work for a government contracting company) won't touch CF because it isn't Certified Secure- whatever that's supposed to mean. Now, that being said, the manager who told me that had a well-deserved reputation for making stuff up when he didn't have any facts at hand, or when the real fact contradicted his opinions, but it sums up probably the biggest issue with CF that I've encountered. Not the cost, or the extra effort to install and configure, but the fact that many of the decision-makers I've encountered still regard CF as a toy. Matt Osbun Web Developer Health Systems, International -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 1:43 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? To turn this already highly flamable thread into something more usefull, how do people think CF should grow, do you think it needs more attention? Does it lack important features or should CF be merely a keep it alive product. Looking forward to the merge where people suggested that this allowed more marketing of the products and where Kevin Lynch stated CF is a core business product, and looking at the comments posted in this thread, would it suit CF to be marketed more? Why would they spend more on CF with marketing if already other products are marketed more? Should CF even be marketed, with the chance of losing its type of being a niche product ? Would it fit CF if there was a larger community, maybe with a free standard version of CF and the enterprise version as the product doing the sales? Just some food for thought, please discuss this with arguments. Micha From
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
On 5/3/05, Matt Osbun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The thread (kinda) started out on marketing CF, and in my experience, this has always been a glaring weakness in how CF is perceived. And, just for the record, does anyone think that adding a rotating ad banner to the home page of macromedia.com would do anything to change that perception (about security)? -- Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/ Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205444 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Depending on the marketing push, it could. So, when are MM going to hire some freelance writers to write some pro-CF pro-CF-security articles for InfoWeek et al? -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h -Original Message- From: Sean Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] And, just for the record, does anyone think that adding a rotating ad banner to the home page of macromedia.com would do anything to change that perception (about security)? ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205445 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Yep, quite a few sites in the NAVAIR community are using them. Our shop does CF, ASP/.NET and Domino development for the Navy. John From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 5/3/2005 3:56 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? so I'm not sure why the Navy would be any different They are not. There is an incredible amount of CF use within the Navy, and I myself have visited lots of Navy sites briefing them on CFMX7. There will always be the occasional voice of doubt and opposition, but in general, the Navy is using CF on both public and secure sites (and even on local networks running on ships!). --- Ben -Original Message- From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 3:48 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Matt, I think you are correct about your old boss. He was most likely referring to a certification and accreditation process for the server. Anything that runs on a secure government network must be approved before it use. Maybe at that time the Navy hadn't approved CF. Working for the Department of State (and currently writing the documents to get CFMX7 approved for use) it's not a hard task. It's just a pain and requires alot of documentation. Right now, only Flash Player 6 is approved for use. However that does not mean to say that Flash Player 7 isn't secure. It just means no one has taken the time to write up the appropriate papers. I can also say I personally know that CF is being used heavily in DoD and DHS. Heck DoD deployed Breeze to mobile communication units in the field. DoD is known for being the first in the government to embrace technology, so I'm not sure why the Navy would be any different. -Adam On 5/3/05, Matt Osbun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Based on my experience: One issue that, IMO, can stand some increased awareness is security. If I had a nickel for every time I had to sit through a ColdFusion is inherently insecure lecture from some manager with a self-assumed programming background, I wouldn't be a programmer. I'd just buy Microsoft and retire. *I* know that you can develop secure web applications in ColdFusion- or insecure ones, if you so decide. And *I* know that the mindset of If it's Microsoft, it's automatically secure is a load of rubbish. This isn't MS-bashing, either. A web-app is as secure or insecure as the practices of the developer(s). Sometimes, I feel like I'm the only one who's figured this out, though. I've even been told that the U.S. Navy (I used to work for a government contracting company) won't touch CF because it isn't Certified Secure- whatever that's supposed to mean. Now, that being said, the manager who told me that had a well-deserved reputation for making stuff up when he didn't have any facts at hand, or when the real fact contradicted his opinions, but it sums up probably the biggest issue with CF that I've encountered. Not the cost, or the extra effort to install and configure, but the fact that many of the decision-makers I've encountered still regard CF as a toy. Matt Osbun Web Developer Health Systems, International -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 1:43 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? To turn this already highly flamable thread into something more usefull, how do people think CF should grow, do you think it needs more attention? Does it lack important features or should CF be merely a keep it alive product. Looking forward to the merge where people suggested that this allowed more marketing of the products and where Kevin Lynch stated CF is a core business product, and looking at the comments posted in this thread, would it suit CF to be marketed more? Why would they spend more on CF with marketing if already other products are marketed more? Should CF even be marketed, with the chance of losing its type of being a niche product ? Would it fit CF if there was a larger community, maybe with a free standard version of CF and the enterprise version as the product doing the sales? Just some food for thought, please discuss this with arguments. Micha From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 5/3/2005 8:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Honestly Alex...do you think banner ads are what sell CF...if so...think again ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
And, just for the record, does anyone think that adding a rotating ad banner to the home page of macromedia.com would do anything to change that perception (about security)? cf_sarcasm Of course it would SeanI mean everybody knows that banner ads are to be trusted beyond your own mother's words of wisdom. If I saw one for ..NET I'd throw all my years of CF out the window and jump ship immeadiately!! /cf_sarcasm bah!! Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com/54 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205447 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Yeah, my understanding is also that MM put in some work before the release of CF7 to get CF7 and Flash 7 on the approved list for NMCI (Navy-Marine Corps Initiative) so I think that sort of work by MM will go a long way to get more government and military sites using MM technologies. That's what Ben and the MM crew told us when they did a visit during the Blackstone evangelism tour last year. John From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 5/3/2005 3:47 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Matt, I think you are correct about your old boss. He was most likely referring to a certification and accreditation process for the server. Anything that runs on a secure government network must be approved before it use. Maybe at that time the Navy hadn't approved CF. Working for the Department of State (and currently writing the documents to get CFMX7 approved for use) it's not a hard task. It's just a pain and requires alot of documentation. Right now, only Flash Player 6 is approved for use. However that does not mean to say that Flash Player 7 isn't secure. It just means no one has taken the time to write up the appropriate papers. I can also say I personally know that CF is being used heavily in DoD and DHS. Heck DoD deployed Breeze to mobile communication units in the field. DoD is known for being the first in the government to embrace technology, so I'm not sure why the Navy would be any different. -Adam On 5/3/05, Matt Osbun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Based on my experience: One issue that, IMO, can stand some increased awareness is security. If I had a nickel for every time I had to sit through a ColdFusion is inherently insecure lecture from some manager with a self-assumed programming background, I wouldn't be a programmer. I'd just buy Microsoft and retire. *I* know that you can develop secure web applications in ColdFusion- or insecure ones, if you so decide. And *I* know that the mindset of If it's Microsoft, it's automatically secure is a load of rubbish. This isn't MS-bashing, either. A web-app is as secure or insecure as the practices of the developer(s). Sometimes, I feel like I'm the only one who's figured this out, though. I've even been told that the U.S. Navy (I used to work for a government contracting company) won't touch CF because it isn't Certified Secure- whatever that's supposed to mean. Now, that being said, the manager who told me that had a well-deserved reputation for making stuff up when he didn't have any facts at hand, or when the real fact contradicted his opinions, but it sums up probably the biggest issue with CF that I've encountered. Not the cost, or the extra effort to install and configure, but the fact that many of the decision-makers I've encountered still regard CF as a toy. Matt Osbun Web Developer Health Systems, International -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 1:43 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? To turn this already highly flamable thread into something more usefull, how do people think CF should grow, do you think it needs more attention? Does it lack important features or should CF be merely a keep it alive product. Looking forward to the merge where people suggested that this allowed more marketing of the products and where Kevin Lynch stated CF is a core business product, and looking at the comments posted in this thread, would it suit CF to be marketed more? Why would they spend more on CF with marketing if already other products are marketed more? Should CF even be marketed, with the chance of losing its type of being a niche product ? Would it fit CF if there was a larger community, maybe with a free standard version of CF and the enterprise version as the product doing the sales? Just some food for thought, please discuss this with arguments. Micha From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 5/3/2005 8:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Honestly Alex...do you think banner ads are what sell CF...if so...think again ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205448 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
secure as in the product or as in insecure as in some of the users? And to answer Micha: I hope one of the things Adobe does with cfm is to license its use in schools and such for free and use its deep photoshop roots to entrench it in a lot of these designer programs. Why? How many sites out there count as php sites because they use 1 php page to process an email? But does that make them a php site? I would say no, they only use PHP because their teachers hand them a php script to send mail, the same way most of us probably used Matts cgi mail script in the past. Of course they are just designers but many will eventually learn some server side language and since they are familiar (loosely) with php they go right 4 that. So my point is too make cfm an option to them thats available and it will carry over and since Photoshop illustrator won't be replaced anytime soon they already have the market hold. Also educate people more on cfm since the general web public is very much uniformed of the actual details of cfm. For the record, yeah it woulda been cool to see cfm banners everywhere but I also saw MM but some serious cash in marketting where it needed to be, for me personally it was Bens tour and the big shabang they put on here in Denver, personally showing us in person first hand some of the new things and I would take that anyday over a banner ad. Leave the banners for the cash cows that let them continue the dev of our beloved product. also~ I wouldnt worry about Adobe dissing cfml, think about it, this whole deal is a direct threat to m$ and is aimed at the very heart of what m$ planned for the future, I seriously doubt they would kill off anything that takes business away from them bungholes. And hopefully with the extra cash Adobe has they can really market the bejesus outta cfml. Like I said before though, I hope they let the MM guys redo their site, haha From: Sean Corfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 4:47 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? On 5/3/05, Matt Osbun wrote: The thread (kinda) started out on marketing CF, and in my experience, this has always been a glaring weakness in how CF is perceived. And, just for the record, does anyone think that adding a rotating ad banner to the home page of macromedia.com would do anything to change that perception (about security)? -- Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/ Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205450 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
That's where CF missed out on some marketing. What makes Java on Websphere better than CFMX on Websphere? - Calvin -Original Message- From: Montgomery Chris Contr AFSFC/SFPA [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 4:05 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? I don't know what the certification status of CF is with the Navy these days, but I know of at least one app where they were running CF. A couple years back, some Navy contractors illicitly procured the code from the Air Force office where I work now and set up their own version of our Vulnerability Assessment Management Program (VAMP). The guy I replaced in the office where I work now originally authored the Air Force's VAMP program back in 1998 and it has survived, until now. Alas, AF has decided to switch to a DOD-wide implementation run out of the Pentagon, and which is implemented in Java on Websphere, so I'll be scanning the want ads again soon. Time to go dust off my resume... -- //SIGNED// Chris Montgomery, Contractor HQ AF Security Forces Center, Antiterrorism Branch 1517 Billy Mitchell Blvd, Bldg 954 Lackland AFB, TX 78236-0119 DSN 312.945.7034 Comm 210.925.7034 -Original Message- From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:48 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? Matt, I think you are correct about your old boss. He was most likely referring to a certification and accreditation process for the server. Anything that runs on a secure government network must be approved before it use. Maybe at that time the Navy hadn't approved CF. Working for the Department of State (and currently writing the documents to get CFMX7 approved for use) it's not a hard task. It's just a pain and requires alot of documentation. Right now, only Flash Player 6 is approved for use. However that does not mean to say that Flash Player 7 isn't secure. It just means no one has taken the time to write up the appropriate papers. I can also say I personally know that CF is being used heavily in DoD and DHS. Heck DoD deployed Breeze to mobile communication units in the field. DoD is known for being the first in the government to embrace technology, so I'm not sure why the Navy would be any different. -Adam ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205451 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
Probably not, however the perception that ColdFusion is not a 'big league' application server is more prevalent than some might think. Maybe part of that 'big league'ness could be improved by being big on Macromedia's front page now and again? - Calvin -Original Message- From: Sean Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 4:46 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? On 5/3/05, Matt Osbun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The thread (kinda) started out on marketing CF, and in my experience, this has always been a glaring weakness in how CF is perceived. And, just for the record, does anyone think that adding a rotating ad banner to the home page of macromedia.com would do anything to change that perception (about security)? -- Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/ Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205452 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
If I saw one for ..NET I'd throw all my years of CF out the window and jump ship immeadiately!! I used to see the .net ones but after I loaded up av on the old pc they were removed and reported as security threats ;) From: Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 4:59 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? And, just for the record, does anyone think that adding a rotating ad banner to the home page of macromedia.com would do anything to change that perception (about security)? Of course it would SeanI mean everybody knows that banner ads are to be trusted beyond your own mother's words of wisdom. If I saw one for ...NET I'd throw all my years of CF out the window and jump ship immeadiately!! bah!! Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com/54 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:205453 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
