RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
But how about MBA and CCIE? That would be excellent mix I think. Regards Jon Gudmundsson -Original Message- From: nrf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 20. aprml 2002 17:18 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Yes. Not as many as before, but yes. Tarek Sabry wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hi Just curious, are there still employers who sponsor MBA's at this time? You don't even have to tell me the names but just a yes or no :) Thanks Tarek Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43507t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Kevin Cullimore wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I'm not sure that the limited education part is accurate. Most extant accounts reveal that his (not-derived-from-an-accredited-institution, of course) education was profound enough to leave him bored, truly bored by the academic obligations imposed upon him during his year at Harvard. I'm trying to imagine a scenario whereby he graduates, and ONLY earns as much as an exceptional Harvard graduate. Assuming some kind of visionary insight/prescience, wouldn't his parents feel cheated by that result after doling out 4 years worth of IVY-League tuition room/board??? Well I suppose using that argument you could say that the parents of Ted Kaczynski (the Unabomber) must have been REALLY feeling cheated by paying for his Harvard degree, right? What I'm saying is this. Getting a top degree greatly increases the chances of you succeeding. But like anything in life, there are no guarantees. It's all about playing the odds. Anything could happen. But we need to deal with what is likely to happen. The fact is, people who work hard and get a good education will probably succeed. Those who are lazy and neglect their education will probably not succeed. No guarantees of course. But the odds are with you. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=42299t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
As much as I stand for everything wrong with american education, I'm not sure I'm willing to share blame with the university for that mishap. It seems to me that the institution had something to offer that wasn't taken advantage of. You are, of course, quite correct that my take on academic ROI is problematic, but I'd rather it lead someone to reject its implications than allow it to persist just because it can work as a general heuristic/guiding notion. My concern with the generalization is this: it doesn't seem to apply equally. If someone's time spent being lectured at and working through academic exercises lead one down a path that precludes opportunity creation, I'm not sure the advanced/elite education has served you well, ESPECIALLY if you're already operating at a post-graduate level in the first place. Again this is all based on second-hand accounts, but I obviously wasn't being clear enough in expressing my position (hence the followup post). I agree with you concerning the general case, but I maintain that its weakness is the lack of universal applicability. Feel free to continue the OT thread privately if you wish. - Original Message - From: nrf To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 3:42 AM Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Kevin Cullimore wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I'm not sure that the limited education part is accurate. Most extant accounts reveal that his (not-derived-from-an-accredited-institution, of course) education was profound enough to leave him bored, truly bored by the academic obligations imposed upon him during his year at Harvard. I'm trying to imagine a scenario whereby he graduates, and ONLY earns as much as an exceptional Harvard graduate. Assuming some kind of visionary insight/prescience, wouldn't his parents feel cheated by that result after doling out 4 years worth of IVY-League tuition room/board??? Well I suppose using that argument you could say that the parents of Ted Kaczynski (the Unabomber) must have been REALLY feeling cheated by paying for his Harvard degree, right? What I'm saying is this. Getting a top degree greatly increases the chances of you succeeding. But like anything in life, there are no guarantees. It's all about playing the odds. Anything could happen. But we need to deal with what is likely to happen. The fact is, people who work hard and get a good education will probably succeed. Those who are lazy and neglect their education will probably not succeed. No guarantees of course. But the odds are with you. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=42312t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
one answer to your question might be that real management skills are still required to run the business. another might be that the venture capitalists and the investment bankers required what they deemed as qualified managers to be part of the management team. there can be substantial differences in the skill sets required to be an entrepreneur, visionary, leader, and the skill sets of professional managers. Even innovative tech companies need both. Chuck nrf wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... William Gragido wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Thats not necessarily true. Bill Gates is an excellent example of someone with limited education, who went on to be a force to be reckoned with in the business world. You have just provided a standard response - the Gates response. Several people have used that response against me. That's why I've developed a standard counterresponse. It goes something like this (I cut and pasted it from the site I posted it before: ...One of the ironies of the tech industry is that while there are indeed many tech-icons who do not hold a degree, these people themselves strongly prefer degrees out of job candidates they hire. For example, surely we're all aware of the degree-less tech superstars- Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs, Michael Dell, and the list goes on. Yet interestingly enough, if you look at the top management teams and Boards of Directors of the companies they run, you will notice that almost invariably, those guys are the only people there who have no degree. Everybody else generally has at least one, if not several degrees, and usually from the most famous colleges in the world - Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley, Yale, MIT, Oxbridge, etc. You would think that if anybody would know the limitations of a college education, it would be somebody like Bill Gates. Yet Gates himself has chosen to surround himself with an extraordinarily well-educated management team, so that means that even a dropout like Gates realizes the value of the degree. If Gates thought the degree wasn't particularly useful (and who in the world could make such a claim more credibly than him?), then why didn't he just hire a bunch of dropouts to be the Microsoft management team? So clearly there must be something good (very good) about that degree. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of nrf Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] I understand. But on the other hand, if you have ambitions to be the CxO, a CCIE isn't going to cut it. Like you said, it's a case of what you want out of life. However, what I will definitely say is this. If you work for a company that is willing to finance your degree at night school, you're a fool not to take it. If you're not the one paying for it, you should get as many degrees as you can, because you never know what's going to happen in the future. Wes Stevens wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... A lot of it is what you want out of life. I will be 50 in 5 years and am perfectly happy playing with cisco's. I make more money then my boss with the mba does and have more job security. What happens if you get laid off at 45 or 50 with a middle to upper management job? If you are not way up there in the corner office area you are going to have a hard time finding a job. I work for a company in the fortune top 5 that is very stable. Yet this economy is hitting us also. They are going to cut my office way back from 500 people to 200 by the end of the year. They will offer me a job in Houston as they can always find a spot for a cisco network engineer. My boss and a lot of other are really scrambling. There are no jobs in the local market and less chances of them finding a place in another part of the company as they are cutting back everywhere. Just some food for thought. From: nrf Reply-To: nrf To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:37:51 -0400 Drew wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sean Knox wrote: I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my CCNP, I am content with that for now and and getting more experience (fortunately I am not some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing this awhile). Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA and I wish you luck. I made a similar decision myself within the last few weeks. I had planned on pursuing my CCIE-Security, but realize that I don't work enough with Cisco products on a daily basis, and certainly not with routing in a complex w
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Also, there are certain companies that offer post-tuition reimbursement. What I mean by that is that you attend a regular, day B-school, on your own dime, and if you do well (really well) and/or the B-school is really famous (like, for example, the Ivy League), then these companies may offer as part of their compensation package, reimbursement of the tuition you paid. Now you can just think of this as a really really big signing bonus, but for tax reasons, it is advantageous for both you and those companies to structure it as a tuition reimbursement deal. But of course, for you to accept such a deal you will be forced to sign some documents agreeing to stick with that company for x number of years, where basically you are signing yourself into indentured servitude with that company for awhile. But it still might make good financial sense, depending on the exact circumstances. Tarek Sabry wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... But it's good to know that employer-sponsorship still happens. I had my MBA classes sponsored at my previous 2 employers. I'm sure my current one will do it too, but it just doesn't feel right to ask for it in such economy. Our stock is OK but the environment is not very encouraging. Anyway back to my CCIE quest for now! Tarek -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of adam lee Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 3:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Just don't get too many B-'s because the employer will pay but the school won't let you play.:) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Chuck Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 10:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] lots of companies have tuition reimbursement programs. you pay up front, take the class, pass with the required grade ( in my case, my employer required a B- ( B minus ) and receive reimbursement for the cost of the class. books were not included. My employer at the time was a major brokerage firm. My current employer ( a telco ) offers a similar program. It can take one a long time, doing it this way - night classes. We used to call it the ten year plan :- HTH Tarek Sabry wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hi Just curious, are there still employers who sponsor MBA's at this time? You don't even have to tell me the names but just a yes or no :) Thanks Tarek Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=42125t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
ROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of nrf Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] I understand. But on the other hand, if you have ambitions to be the CxO, a CCIE isn't going to cut it. Like you said, it's a case of what you want out of life. However, what I will definitely say is this. If you work for a company that is willing to finance your degree at night school, you're a fool not to take it. If you're not the one paying for it, you should get as many degrees as you can, because you never know what's going to happen in the future. Wes Stevens wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... A lot of it is what you want out of life. I will be 50 in 5 years and am perfectly happy playing with cisco's. I make more money then my boss with the mba does and have more job security. What happens if you get laid off at 45 or 50 with a middle to upper management job? If you are not way up there in the corner office area you are going to have a hard time finding a job. I work for a company in the fortune top 5 that is very stable. Yet this economy is hitting us also. They are going to cut my office way back from 500 people to 200 by the end of the year. They will offer me a job in Houston as they can always find a spot for a cisco network engineer. My boss and a lot of other are really scrambling. There are no jobs in the local market and less chances of them finding a place in another part of the company as they are cutting back everywhere. Just some food for thought. From: nrf Reply-To: nrf To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:37:51 -0400 Drew wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sean Knox wrote: I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my CCNP, I am content with that for now and and getting more experience (fortunately I am not some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing this awhile). Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA and I wish you luck. I made a similar decision myself within the last few weeks. I had planned on pursuing my CCIE-Security, but realize that I don't work enough with Cisco products on a daily basis, and certainly not with routing in a complex way, to feel that I would deserve the cert, even if I attained it. I'm going back to school for my MS in CS, starting classes in June. I think in the long run, an advanced degree is more of a benefit than an advanced vendor cert. But thats just me. Exactly. Especially later in your life. Fiddling with Cisco boxes might be cool now, but do you still want to be doing that when you're 50? Probably not, you probably want to be sitting in a director's chair ordering other young guys to set up the systems. It's hard to win promotion to that chair without an advanced education. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=42127t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
It happened that Bill Gates didn't get the degree, but he had an excellent education, what it matters. Bill Gates himself in technet articles already commented on that, saying that yes, degrees (read education) is very important, contrary to what some might think. From: nrf Reply-To: nrf To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 01:14:52 -0400 William Gragido wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Thats not necessarily true. Bill Gates is an excellent example of someone with limited education, who went on to be a force to be reckoned with in the business world. You have just provided a standard response - the Gates response. Several people have used that response against me. That's why I've developed a standard counterresponse. It goes something like this (I cut and pasted it from the site I posted it before: ...One of the ironies of the tech industry is that while there are indeed many tech-icons who do not hold a degree, these people themselves strongly prefer degrees out of job candidates they hire. For example, surely we're all aware of the degree-less tech superstars- Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs, Michael Dell, and the list goes on. Yet interestingly enough, if you look at the top management teams and Boards of Directors of the companies they run, you will notice that almost invariably, those guys are the only people there who have no degree. Everybody else generally has at least one, if not several degrees, and usually from the most famous colleges in the world - Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley, Yale, MIT, Oxbridge, etc. You would think that if anybody would know the limitations of a college education, it would be somebody like Bill Gates. Yet Gates himself has chosen to surround himself with an extraordinarily well-educated management team, so that means that even a dropout like Gates realizes the value of the degree. If Gates thought the degree wasn't particularly useful (and who in the world could make such a claim more credibly than him?), then why didn't he just hire a bunch of dropouts to be the Microsoft management team? So clearly there must be something good (very good) about that degree. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of nrf Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] I understand. But on the other hand, if you have ambitions to be the CxO, a CCIE isn't going to cut it. Like you said, it's a case of what you want out of life. However, what I will definitely say is this. If you work for a company that is willing to finance your degree at night school, you're a fool not to take it. If you're not the one paying for it, you should get as many degrees as you can, because you never know what's going to happen in the future. Wes Stevens wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... A lot of it is what you want out of life. I will be 50 in 5 years and am perfectly happy playing with cisco's. I make more money then my boss with the mba does and have more job security. What happens if you get laid off at 45 or 50 with a middle to upper management job? If you are not way up there in the corner office area you are going to have a hard time finding a job. I work for a company in the fortune top 5 that is very stable. Yet this economy is hitting us also. They are going to cut my office way back from 500 people to 200 by the end of the year. They will offer me a job in Houston as they can always find a spot for a cisco network engineer. My boss and a lot of other are really scrambling. There are no jobs in the local market and less chances of them finding a place in another part of the company as they are cutting back everywhere. Just some food for thought. From: nrf Reply-To: nrf To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:37:51 -0400 Drew wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sean Knox wrote: I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my CCNP, I am content with that for now and and getting more experience (fortunately I am not some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing this awhile). Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA and I wish you luck. I made a similar decision myself within the last few weeks. I had planned on pursuing my CCIE-Security, but realize that I don't work enough with Cisco products on a daily basis, and certainly not with routing in a complex way, to feel that I would deserve the cert, even if I attained it. I'm going back to school for my MS in CS, starting classes in June. I think in the long
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Fair enough. Thanks for elegantly depicting the real-world factors involved. I'll always bear a conceptual blind spot concerning individuals in that category, but I felt compelled to point out that the popular generalization, as usual, has issues where accuracy is concerned. I would never expect the business world to be fair, or expect HR professionals who don't specialize in IT (and, unfortunately, some who do) to accurately interpret the candidate-specific data they are confronted with. Since I'm constantly fighting the practice of jumping to ANY conclusion (and thereby revealing weaknesses that plague the conclusion-jumper's decision-making processes), I really can't pass up opportunities to clarify situations which are publically discussed such as the one we're addressing. - Original Message - From: sakky To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 1:24 AM Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Kevin Cullimore wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... A fair amount of people who focused their academic pursuits on natural sciences/mathematics work in the private sector. Some of them have jobs which apply concepts concrete knowledge that was part of their curriculum. Some of them pusued a masters because they could actually learn something about their field of interest (which can be profoundly hard to do within undergrad programs) or it helped advance their pursuit of compensation or responsibility. Some really competent Masters students opted to not pursue PhDs because of the prospects of divorce and minimal returns based on their current job status. If they can't pass the quals, I'm not sure the conferring of the Masters is in order. Conversely, there are PLENTY of good reasons to NOT let someone in a PhD. program even if they CAN or DO pass their quals. On the other hand, many of those master's degrees guys really were guys who couldn't pass their quals. So whether you had a legitimate reason for getting a master's degree or not doesn't really matter in terms of getting a job or for professional prestige or whatever - you will be deemed 'guilty by association' by being lumped together with a bunch of, shall we say, rejects. Is that unfair? Yeah, it is. But that's life. Surely you realize that HR and other hiring directors often make decisions based on what's on a piece of paper, and you therefore have no chance to explain the details of your situation to them. The fact is, you are judged by the people you associate with. If you associate with a bunch of thugs and criminals, you shouldn't be surprised when people think you are a criminal yourself. Now, I'm not saying that master's degree holders are criminals, it's just an example I'm using. I'm just saying that if you associate yourself in a group of people for which there are indeed a large proportion on PhD failures, then people will often jump to the conclusion that you are also one yourself. I've encountered plenty of cases where better experiences can be had with Mathematics BS grads than CS MS grads, because the math folk don't assume that four years of algorithms programming (and ponentially many other topics except real-world microcomputer-based support networking issues-diclaimer, I'm aware that that is changing at the painfully slow pace that most curriculms adhere to when reforming themselves, but the damage is done) entitle them to godlike status where their intuitions concerning technologies, formal systems and issues that they have had NO PRACTICAL experience with are concerned. As far as the CS folk in question are concerned, since they already know everything, they can be VERY difficult to train. (I'm aware of the existence of exceptions, but they are not the ones making laughingstocks of their respective IT groups, so they do not occupy as prominent a place in my consciousness) It's interesting that you align CS with engineering, since the knowledge-gathering aspect of CS adheres better to the rhetoric and ideals of the natural sciences ever could, due to the nature of the subject matter. Well, then I suppose you would also find it interesting to note that the vast majority of American universities (don't know about Europe) also lump CS into their engineering departments, rather than into their science departments . Surely there is a reason for this. Dragging back in the original question, the CCIE somewhat affirms the ability to perform hands-on work and apply concepts in unfamiliar contexts with success slightly quicker than random trial and error generally produce in a vendor-specific state-space. Its ameliorative influence upon your career is somewhat dependent upon Cisco's success, IT's success and your personal goals. I see high level networking jobs where a masters in computer science is a prerequisite for having your resume read (very effecient, since it reveals tw
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
A point that might not have been adequately articulated thus far is as follows: Until the past couple of years, many CS programs had no mechanisms in place to ensure that a graduate would be of better value to a corporation requiring networking or troubleshooting skills than someone without a CS degree. This is compounded by CS graduates who act as if they ARE better qualified because they took many courses requiring them to develop code within the confines of classical programming languages/environments while avoiding curriculum that emphasized data communications like some manner of biblical plague. Just as people are likely to generalize based upon someone's level of education, they are equally likely to adopt inflexible opinions based upon their exposure to someone who, although talented potentially capable of wielding superior cognitive firepower, is not immediately useful, and in fact obstructive, due to their lack of exposure to the business world, and their stubborn belief in their own infallability. For the record, the characteristics I've pointed out are indicative of the individuals involved, not their field of study. CS is just a natural target for people who wish to behave this way. An enlightened approach I've noticed is institutions who require that a candidate have a degree-not necessarily in computer science-to apply for a given networking/support (more-accurately: non-programming) position. This approach seems to form a balanced approach to addressing both sets of concerns. Unless I'm missing something terribly obvious (and yes, I'm aware that that phrase is somewhat [if not doubly] redundant). Feedback? - Original Message - From: nrf To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 2:32 AM Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Chuck wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... one answer to your question might be that real management skills are still required to run the business. another might be that the venture capitalists and the investment bankers required what they deemed as qualified managers to be part of the management team. Yes I understand. But either way, you must agree that it's really neither here nor there. At the end of the day, if companies - for whatever reason - want the degree , then the degree is what you will need to provide. there can be substantial differences in the skill sets required to be an entrepreneur, visionary, leader, and the skill sets of professional managers. Even innovative tech companies need both. Absolutely. However I consider the degree a case of 'playing the percentages'. Yes, you could roll the dice and try to be the next Gates, and it might happen. But probably not. Tech companies do indeed need both pro-managers and tech visionaries. But it's not really a case of 'either-or' when a degree is involved. It's not like by getting a degree, you are forfeiting tech visionary capabilities. You can have both - you can be both a visionary and have a lot of education. In fact,not only is it possible, it is actually quite likely, because highly educated people in fact tend to tech visionaries, some important exceptions notwithstanding.Gates may have no formal education. But, for example, the guys who founded Intel were all PhD's (Noyce -MIT, Moore - Caltech, Grove - Berkeley), and they just so happened to invent rather some innovative things like, oh, I don't know, solid-state memory (DRAM) and the microprocessor (those are fairly important inventions, I would say). The Cisco router was invented by a burst of innovation from Bosack and Lerner, who just so happen to hold graduate degrees from Stanford. I could go on and on. Look, my point isn't to tell everybody to go to college, or to tell people that only the big schools matter. Not at all. Going or not going to college is a personal decision that only the individual can make. And truly it is the case the college is not right for some people. What I'm saying is that a college degree does hold substantial value, even in a historically informal industry like IT. If you choose not to go to college, that's fine, just understand that you are giving up something of value. Now you might decide that the degree is not worth the time and money it takes to do it, or whatever, and that's a perfectly valid calculation for you to make. But if you decide not to go, you shouldn't delude yourself into thinking that you are not giving up anything of value, because you are. Maybe it's not enough value for you, or, based on your personal circumstances, not enough to justify a proper return-on-investment or whatever, but it's still some value we're talking about here. Chuck nrf wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... William Gragido wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Thats not necessarily true. Bill Gates is an excell
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
I'm not sure that the limited education part is accurate. Most extant accounts reveal that his (not-derived-from-an-accredited-institution, of course) education was profound enough to leave him bored, truly bored by the academic obligations imposed upon him during his year at Harvard. I'm trying to imagine a scenario whereby he graduates, and ONLY earns as much as an exceptional Harvard graduate. Assuming some kind of visionary insight/prescience, wouldn't his parents feel cheated by that result after doling out 4 years worth of IVY-League tuition room/board??? - Original Message - From: nrf To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 1:14 AM Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] William Gragido wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Thats not necessarily true. Bill Gates is an excellent example of someone with limited education, who went on to be a force to be reckoned with in the business world. You have just provided a standard response - the Gates response. Several people have used that response against me. That's why I've developed a standard counterresponse. It goes something like this (I cut and pasted it from the site I posted it before: ...One of the ironies of the tech industry is that while there are indeed many tech-icons who do not hold a degree, these people themselves strongly prefer degrees out of job candidates they hire. For example, surely we're all aware of the degree-less tech superstars- Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs, Michael Dell, and the list goes on. Yet interestingly enough, if you look at the top management teams and Boards of Directors of the companies they run, you will notice that almost invariably, those guys are the only people there who have no degree. Everybody else generally has at least one, if not several degrees, and usually from the most famous colleges in the world - Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley, Yale, MIT, Oxbridge, etc. You would think that if anybody would know the limitations of a college education, it would be somebody like Bill Gates. Yet Gates himself has chosen to surround himself with an extraordinarily well-educated management team, so that means that even a dropout like Gates realizes the value of the degree. If Gates thought the degree wasn't particularly useful (and who in the world could make such a claim more credibly than him?), then why didn't he just hire a bunch of dropouts to be the Microsoft management team? So clearly there must be something good (very good) about that degree. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of nrf Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] I understand. But on the other hand, if you have ambitions to be the CxO, a CCIE isn't going to cut it. Like you said, it's a case of what you want out of life. However, what I will definitely say is this. If you work for a company that is willing to finance your degree at night school, you're a fool not to take it. If you're not the one paying for it, you should get as many degrees as you can, because you never know what's going to happen in the future. Wes Stevens wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... A lot of it is what you want out of life. I will be 50 in 5 years and am perfectly happy playing with cisco's. I make more money then my boss with the mba does and have more job security. What happens if you get laid off at 45 or 50 with a middle to upper management job? If you are not way up there in the corner office area you are going to have a hard time finding a job. I work for a company in the fortune top 5 that is very stable. Yet this economy is hitting us also. They are going to cut my office way back from 500 people to 200 by the end of the year. They will offer me a job in Houston as they can always find a spot for a cisco network engineer. My boss and a lot of other are really scrambling. There are no jobs in the local market and less chances of them finding a place in another part of the company as they are cutting back everywhere. Just some food for thought. From: nrf Reply-To: nrf To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:37:51 -0400 Drew wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sean Knox wrote: I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my CCNP, I am content with that for now and and getting more experience (fortunately I am not some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing this awhile). Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA and I wish you luck. I made a similar decision myself within the last few weeks. I had planned on pursuing my CC
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
ROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of nrf Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] I understand. But on the other hand, if you have ambitions to be the CxO, a CCIE isn't going to cut it. Like you said, it's a case of what you want out of life. However, what I will definitely say is this. If you work for a company that is willing to finance your degree at night school, you're a fool not to take it. If you're not the one paying for it, you should get as many degrees as you can, because you never know what's going to happen in the future. Wes Stevens wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... A lot of it is what you want out of life. I will be 50 in 5 years and am perfectly happy playing with cisco's. I make more money then my boss with the mba does and have more job security. What happens if you get laid off at 45 or 50 with a middle to upper management job? If you are not way up there in the corner office area you are going to have a hard time finding a job. I work for a company in the fortune top 5 that is very stable. Yet this economy is hitting us also. They are going to cut my office way back from 500 people to 200 by the end of the year. They will offer me a job in Houston as they can always find a spot for a cisco network engineer. My boss and a lot of other are really scrambling. There are no jobs in the local market and less chances of them finding a place in another part of the company as they are cutting back everywhere. Just some food for thought. From: nrf Reply-To: nrf To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:37:51 -0400 Drew wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sean Knox wrote: I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my CCNP, I am content with that for now and and getting more experience (fortunately I am not some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing this awhile). Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA and I wish you luck. I made a similar decision myself within the last few weeks. I had planned on pursuing my CCIE-Security, but realize that I don't work enough with Cisco products on a daily basis, and certainly not with routing in a complex way, to feel that I would deserve the cert, even if I attained it. I'm going back to school for my MS in CS, starting classes in June. I think in the long run, an advanced degree is more of a benefit than an advanced vendor cert. But thats just me. Exactly. Especially later in your life. Fiddling with Cisco boxes might be cool now, but do you still want to be doing that when you're 50? Probably not, you probably want to be sitting in a director's chair ordering other young guys to set up the systems. It's hard to win promotion to that chair without an advanced education. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=42132t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
A point that might not have been adequately articulated thus far is as follows: Until the past couple of years, many CS programs had no mechanisms in place to ensure that a graduate would be of better value to a corporation requiring networking or troubleshooting skills than someone without a CS degree. This is compounded by CS graduates who act as if they ARE better qualified because they took many courses requiring them to develop code within the confines of classical programming languages/environments while avoiding curriculum that emphasized data communications like some manner of biblical plague. Just as people are likely to generalize based upon someone's level of education, they are equally likely to adopt inflexible opinions based upon their exposure to someone who, although talented potentially capable of wielding superior cognitive firepower, is not immediately useful, and in fact obstructive, due to their lack of exposure to the business world, and their stubborn belief in their own infallability. For the record, the characteristics I've pointed out are indicative of the individuals involved, not their field of study. CS is just a natural target for people who wish to behave this way. An enlightened approach I've noticed is institutions who require that a candidate have a degree-not necessarily in computer science-to apply for a given networking/support (more-accurately: non-programming) position. This approach seems to form a balanced approach to addressing both sets of concerns. Unless I'm missing something terribly obvious (and yes, I'm aware that that phrase is somewhat [if not doubly] redundant). Feedback? - Original Message - From: nrf To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 2:32 AM Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Chuck wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... one answer to your question might be that real management skills are still required to run the business. another might be that the venture capitalists and the investment bankers required what they deemed as qualified managers to be part of the management team. Yes I understand. But either way, you must agree that it's really neither here nor there. At the end of the day, if companies - for whatever reason - want the degree , then the degree is what you will need to provide. there can be substantial differences in the skill sets required to be an entrepreneur, visionary, leader, and the skill sets of professional managers. Even innovative tech companies need both. Absolutely. However I consider the degree a case of 'playing the percentages'. Yes, you could roll the dice and try to be the next Gates, and it might happen. But probably not. Tech companies do indeed need both pro-managers and tech visionaries. But it's not really a case of 'either-or' when a degree is involved. It's not like by getting a degree, you are forfeiting tech visionary capabilities. You can have both - you can be both a visionary and have a lot of education. In fact,not only is it possible, it is actually quite likely, because highly educated people in fact tend to tech visionaries, some important exceptions notwithstanding.Gates may have no formal education. But, for example, the guys who founded Intel were all PhD's (Noyce -MIT, Moore - Caltech, Grove - Berkeley), and they just so happened to invent rather some innovative things like, oh, I don't know, solid-state memory (DRAM) and the microprocessor (those are fairly important inventions, I would say). The Cisco router was invented by a burst of innovation from Bosack and Lerner, who just so happen to hold graduate degrees from Stanford. I could go on and on. Look, my point isn't to tell everybody to go to college, or to tell people that only the big schools matter. Not at all. Going or not going to college is a personal decision that only the individual can make. And truly it is the case the college is not right for some people. What I'm saying is that a college degree does hold substantial value, even in a historically informal industry like IT. If you choose not to go to college, that's fine, just understand that you are giving up something of value. Now you might decide that the degree is not worth the time and money it takes to do it, or whatever, and that's a perfectly valid calculation for you to make. But if you decide not to go, you shouldn't delude yourself into thinking that you are not giving up anything of value, because you are. Maybe it's not enough value for you, or, based on your personal circumstances, not enough to justify a proper return-on-investment or whatever, but it's still some value we're talking about here. Chuck nrf wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... William Gragido wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Thats not necessarily true. Bill Gates is an excell
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Fair enough. Thanks for elegantly depicting the real-world factors involved. I'll always bear a conceptual blind spot concerning individuals in that category, but I felt compelled to point out that the popular generalization, as usual, has issues where accuracy is concerned. I would never expect the business world to be fair, or expect HR professionals who don't specialize in IT (and, unfortunately, some who do) to accurately interpret the candidate-specific data they are confronted with. Since I'm constantly fighting the practice of jumping to ANY conclusion (and thereby revealing weaknesses that plague the conclusion-jumper's decision-making processes), I really can't pass up opportunities to clarify situations which are publically discussed such as the one we're addressing. - Original Message - From: sakky To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 1:24 AM Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Kevin Cullimore wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... A fair amount of people who focused their academic pursuits on natural sciences/mathematics work in the private sector. Some of them have jobs which apply concepts concrete knowledge that was part of their curriculum. Some of them pusued a masters because they could actually learn something about their field of interest (which can be profoundly hard to do within undergrad programs) or it helped advance their pursuit of compensation or responsibility. Some really competent Masters students opted to not pursue PhDs because of the prospects of divorce and minimal returns based on their current job status. If they can't pass the quals, I'm not sure the conferring of the Masters is in order. Conversely, there are PLENTY of good reasons to NOT let someone in a PhD. program even if they CAN or DO pass their quals. On the other hand, many of those master's degrees guys really were guys who couldn't pass their quals. So whether you had a legitimate reason for getting a master's degree or not doesn't really matter in terms of getting a job or for professional prestige or whatever - you will be deemed 'guilty by association' by being lumped together with a bunch of, shall we say, rejects. Is that unfair? Yeah, it is. But that's life. Surely you realize that HR and other hiring directors often make decisions based on what's on a piece of paper, and you therefore have no chance to explain the details of your situation to them. The fact is, you are judged by the people you associate with. If you associate with a bunch of thugs and criminals, you shouldn't be surprised when people think you are a criminal yourself. Now, I'm not saying that master's degree holders are criminals, it's just an example I'm using. I'm just saying that if you associate yourself in a group of people for which there are indeed a large proportion on PhD failures, then people will often jump to the conclusion that you are also one yourself. I've encountered plenty of cases where better experiences can be had with Mathematics BS grads than CS MS grads, because the math folk don't assume that four years of algorithms programming (and ponentially many other topics except real-world microcomputer-based support networking issues-diclaimer, I'm aware that that is changing at the painfully slow pace that most curriculms adhere to when reforming themselves, but the damage is done) entitle them to godlike status where their intuitions concerning technologies, formal systems and issues that they have had NO PRACTICAL experience with are concerned. As far as the CS folk in question are concerned, since they already know everything, they can be VERY difficult to train. (I'm aware of the existence of exceptions, but they are not the ones making laughingstocks of their respective IT groups, so they do not occupy as prominent a place in my consciousness) It's interesting that you align CS with engineering, since the knowledge-gathering aspect of CS adheres better to the rhetoric and ideals of the natural sciences ever could, due to the nature of the subject matter. Well, then I suppose you would also find it interesting to note that the vast majority of American universities (don't know about Europe) also lump CS into their engineering departments, rather than into their science departments . Surely there is a reason for this. Dragging back in the original question, the CCIE somewhat affirms the ability to perform hands-on work and apply concepts in unfamiliar contexts with success slightly quicker than random trial and error generally produce in a vendor-specific state-space. Its ameliorative influence upon your career is somewhat dependent upon Cisco's success, IT's success and your personal goals. I see high level networking jobs where a masters in computer science is a prerequisite for having your resume read (very effecient, since it reveals tw
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
It may be that there are some companies that ask you to sign agreements. I personally have not run into that in any of the four places I worked where there was a tuition reimbursement. These places were a large brokerage firm, a small brokerage firm, a major telco, and a well known clothing manufacturer. Obviously, one should read through their employee benefits manual, or check with their HR department, YMMV nrf wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Also, there are certain companies that offer post-tuition reimbursement. What I mean by that is that you attend a regular, day B-school, on your own dime, and if you do well (really well) and/or the B-school is really famous (like, for example, the Ivy League), then these companies may offer as part of their compensation package, reimbursement of the tuition you paid. Now you can just think of this as a really really big signing bonus, but for tax reasons, it is advantageous for both you and those companies to structure it as a tuition reimbursement deal. But of course, for you to accept such a deal you will be forced to sign some documents agreeing to stick with that company for x number of years, where basically you are signing yourself into indentured servitude with that company for awhile. But it still might make good financial sense, depending on the exact circumstances. Tarek Sabry wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... But it's good to know that employer-sponsorship still happens. I had my MBA classes sponsored at my previous 2 employers. I'm sure my current one will do it too, but it just doesn't feel right to ask for it in such economy. Our stock is OK but the environment is not very encouraging. Anyway back to my CCIE quest for now! Tarek -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of adam lee Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 3:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Just don't get too many B-'s because the employer will pay but the school won't let you play.:) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Chuck Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 10:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] lots of companies have tuition reimbursement programs. you pay up front, take the class, pass with the required grade ( in my case, my employer required a B- ( B minus ) and receive reimbursement for the cost of the class. books were not included. My employer at the time was a major brokerage firm. My current employer ( a telco ) offers a similar program. It can take one a long time, doing it this way - night classes. We used to call it the ten year plan :- HTH Tarek Sabry wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hi Just curious, are there still employers who sponsor MBA's at this time? You don't even have to tell me the names but just a yes or no :) Thanks Tarek Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=42155t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
rember, it is not where you are from but where you are going.. ad spice to whatever you do and enjoylawrence a sculark MBA/Info_Mgmt; CCNA;CCNP;ESS;ESR LAWRENCE A SCULARK From: Ladrach, Daniel E. Reply-To: Ladrach, Daniel E. To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:31:22 -0400 Received: from [63.104.50.75] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id MHotMailBE881A78006C400437A43F68324B05811; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 06:52:14 -0700 Received: from localhost (mail@localhost)by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA15424;Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:50:46 -0400 Received: by groupstudy.com (bulk_mailer v1.13); Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:31:26 -0400 Received: (from listserver@localhost)by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA10713GroupStudy Mailer; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:31:23 -0400 Received: (from mail@localhost)by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA10707GroupStudy Mailer; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:31:22 -0400 From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu, 18 Apr 2002 06:52:38 -0700 Message-Id: X-GroupStudy-Version: 3.1.1a X-GroupStudy: Network Technical Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk I was considering both options I have a MIS degree from The Ohio State University. After getting my CCNP and working for a large ISP and seeing a co-worker pass the lab and get nothing but a pat on the back from our company; I made the decision to enroll in an MBA program this fall. After carefully reviewing my options, I did not want to put myself in such a nich market. I think you need to ask yourself where can you go with a CCIE? ISP, Consult, work for yourself. I know there are other companies that would hire a CCIE but you probably would not be utalized to your full potential. Also, a MBA does not expire and if you ever want to be a CTO or CIO most likely you are going to need the education. I have debated this same topic with my friends and co-workers and there is no easy answer. I think it is personal preference but I will say a few things about the CCIE, salaries are coming down due to the fact that there are more CCIE's(some are not the experts they should be). The only reason I say this is once you get your CCIE you should be an expert hence Internetworking Expert. I know people may disagree with some of these statements, but I have seen some CCIE candidates that have issues with basic skills. Daniel Ladrach CCNA, CCNP WorldCom -Original Message- From: Antonio Montana [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 5:07 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: OT: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Hi all, Maybe this topic is discussed several times but I still can't decide wether to go for the CCIE or to go back to a good business school for MBA. I am doing networking for 3 yrs now and can see that it's getting harder to find a good. Have all Cisco cert's except of the lab and some others Microsoft, Novell etc. and a Computer Science degree. The problem is, that here, in europe, some CCIE's are doing jobs like System or Network Administration, which is indeed not well paid at all. It's just like creating some user logins, assigning and administering IP addresses and do some entries or changes on DNS or even Exchange Servers. Ok I understand that, it's better than being unemployed. But is this a CCIE job ?? Really don't think so. I don't know when the telco market is going up again, but I really think about going to school and getting a management education. Jobs for MBA's are still there. Who knows if and when the market will give back the CCIE's the recognition they earn ?!? So, should I stop my track towards the CCIE and go to the dark side ?? What do you think guys ?? cheers tony Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=41820t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=42066t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Hi Just curious, are there still employers who sponsor MBA's at this time? You don't even have to tell me the names but just a yes or no :) Thanks Tarek Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=42081t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Yes. Not as many as before, but yes. Tarek Sabry wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hi Just curious, are there still employers who sponsor MBA's at this time? You don't even have to tell me the names but just a yes or no :) Thanks Tarek Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=42083t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
lots of companies have tuition reimbursement programs. you pay up front, take the class, pass with the required grade ( in my case, my employer required a B- ( B minus ) and receive reimbursement for the cost of the class. books were not included. My employer at the time was a major brokerage firm. My current employer ( a telco ) offers a similar program. It can take one a long time, doing it this way - night classes. We used to call it the ten year plan :- HTH Tarek Sabry wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hi Just curious, are there still employers who sponsor MBA's at this time? You don't even have to tell me the names but just a yes or no :) Thanks Tarek Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=42084t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Just don't get too many B-'s because the employer will pay but the school won't let you play.:) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Chuck Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 10:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] lots of companies have tuition reimbursement programs. you pay up front, take the class, pass with the required grade ( in my case, my employer required a B- ( B minus ) and receive reimbursement for the cost of the class. books were not included. My employer at the time was a major brokerage firm. My current employer ( a telco ) offers a similar program. It can take one a long time, doing it this way - night classes. We used to call it the ten year plan :- HTH Tarek Sabry wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hi Just curious, are there still employers who sponsor MBA's at this time? You don't even have to tell me the names but just a yes or no :) Thanks Tarek Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=42093t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
But it's good to know that employer-sponsorship still happens. I had my MBA classes sponsored at my previous 2 employers. I'm sure my current one will do it too, but it just doesn't feel right to ask for it in such economy. Our stock is OK but the environment is not very encouraging. Anyway back to my CCIE quest for now! Tarek -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of adam lee Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 3:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Just don't get too many B-'s because the employer will pay but the school won't let you play.:) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Chuck Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 10:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] lots of companies have tuition reimbursement programs. you pay up front, take the class, pass with the required grade ( in my case, my employer required a B- ( B minus ) and receive reimbursement for the cost of the class. books were not included. My employer at the time was a major brokerage firm. My current employer ( a telco ) offers a similar program. It can take one a long time, doing it this way - night classes. We used to call it the ten year plan :- HTH Tarek Sabry wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hi Just curious, are there still employers who sponsor MBA's at this time? You don't even have to tell me the names but just a yes or no :) Thanks Tarek Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=42097t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Ok, I've been following this thread for a while and I have a stupid question. How is a CCIE certification comparable to an MBA? I guess I don't understand this because I am in the military and am not exposed to the environment where this would be relevant. It seems to me that an individual who has an MBA is the office/sit at a desk type of person, whereas an individual with a CCIE is neck-deep in technology and getting their hands dirty. Am I off-base here? I sure don't want to offend anyone with my ignorance of the subject. I am actively persuing my CCIE certification having earned my CCNP yesterday! I am also 5 classes away from finishing my Bachelor's degree. I would be interested to know if I need both the MBA and the CCIE, because I definitely plan on earning the CCIE. Thanks, as always, Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tarek Sabry Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 4:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] But it's good to know that employer-sponsorship still happens. I had my MBA classes sponsored at my previous 2 employers. I'm sure my current one will do it too, but it just doesn't feel right to ask for it in such economy. Our stock is OK but the environment is not very encouraging. Anyway back to my CCIE quest for now! Tarek -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of adam lee Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 3:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Just don't get too many B-'s because the employer will pay but the school won't let you play.:) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Chuck Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 10:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] lots of companies have tuition reimbursement programs. you pay up front, take the class, pass with the required grade ( in my case, my employer required a B- ( B minus ) and receive reimbursement for the cost of the class. books were not included. My employer at the time was a major brokerage firm. My current employer ( a telco ) offers a similar program. It can take one a long time, doing it this way - night classes. We used to call it the ten year plan :- HTH Tarek Sabry wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hi Just curious, are there still employers who sponsor MBA's at this time? You don't even have to tell me the names but just a yes or no :) Thanks Tarek Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=42101t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
William Gragido wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Thats not necessarily true. Bill Gates is an excellent example of someone with limited education, who went on to be a force to be reckoned with in the business world. You have just provided a standard response - the Gates response. Several people have used that response against me. That's why I've developed a standard counterresponse. It goes something like this (I cut and pasted it from the site I posted it before: ...One of the ironies of the tech industry is that while there are indeed many tech-icons who do not hold a degree, these people themselves strongly prefer degrees out of job candidates they hire. For example, surely we're all aware of the degree-less tech superstars- Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs, Michael Dell, and the list goes on. Yet interestingly enough, if you look at the top management teams and Boards of Directors of the companies they run, you will notice that almost invariably, those guys are the only people there who have no degree. Everybody else generally has at least one, if not several degrees, and usually from the most famous colleges in the world - Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley, Yale, MIT, Oxbridge, etc. You would think that if anybody would know the limitations of a college education, it would be somebody like Bill Gates. Yet Gates himself has chosen to surround himself with an extraordinarily well-educated management team, so that means that even a dropout like Gates realizes the value of the degree. If Gates thought the degree wasn't particularly useful (and who in the world could make such a claim more credibly than him?), then why didn't he just hire a bunch of dropouts to be the Microsoft management team? So clearly there must be something good (very good) about that degree. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of nrf Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] I understand. But on the other hand, if you have ambitions to be the CxO, a CCIE isn't going to cut it. Like you said, it's a case of what you want out of life. However, what I will definitely say is this. If you work for a company that is willing to finance your degree at night school, you're a fool not to take it. If you're not the one paying for it, you should get as many degrees as you can, because you never know what's going to happen in the future. Wes Stevens wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... A lot of it is what you want out of life. I will be 50 in 5 years and am perfectly happy playing with cisco's. I make more money then my boss with the mba does and have more job security. What happens if you get laid off at 45 or 50 with a middle to upper management job? If you are not way up there in the corner office area you are going to have a hard time finding a job. I work for a company in the fortune top 5 that is very stable. Yet this economy is hitting us also. They are going to cut my office way back from 500 people to 200 by the end of the year. They will offer me a job in Houston as they can always find a spot for a cisco network engineer. My boss and a lot of other are really scrambling. There are no jobs in the local market and less chances of them finding a place in another part of the company as they are cutting back everywhere. Just some food for thought. From: nrf Reply-To: nrf To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:37:51 -0400 Drew wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sean Knox wrote: I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my CCNP, I am content with that for now and and getting more experience (fortunately I am not some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing this awhile). Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA and I wish you luck. I made a similar decision myself within the last few weeks. I had planned on pursuing my CCIE-Security, but realize that I don't work enough with Cisco products on a daily basis, and certainly not with routing in a complex way, to feel that I would deserve the cert, even if I attained it. I'm going back to school for my MS in CS, starting classes in June. I think in the long run, an advanced degree is more of a benefit than an advanced vendor cert. But thats just me. Exactly. Especially later in your life. Fiddling with Cisco boxes might be cool now, but do you still want to be doing that when you're 50? Probably not, you probably want to be sitting in a director's chair ordering other young guys to set up the systems. It's hard to win promotion to that chair witho
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
l issues. If, following the completion of your desired course of study, you wish to deal with people financial issues outright, by all means go for the MBA. The situation (besides, of course, hands-on) where not having a CCIE might hurt you is if you have to lead a team of them, and your role requires you to understand issues at their level in order to communicate with them or make successful customer-related decisions. - Original Message - From: nrf To: Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 11:55 AM Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] I'd tend to agree in traditional science fields like chemistry (my original major), but not in computer science/networking outside pure academia. I can look at an assortment of IETF leaders and find people anywhere from college dropout to PhD. Even some key academic researchers (not faculty) such as Scott Bradner have masters' degrees, not PhD's. But notice that was why I was restricting my discussion to only the natural sciences and mathematics, where a master's degree may not be very positive, and could actually be negative. Different rules apply to, say, engineering (I still consider CS to be more engineering than natural science). And, of course, to business. This isn't just the Old Guard. A co-director of the IETF Routing Area, Abha Ahuja, died suddenly and tragically at the age of 27. She had a bachelor's degree. One of the Advisory Council members of ARIN got his appointment around his 21st or 22nd birthday. There are, however, people who are innovative architects and programmers in their 60s and possibly older. Not a networking person, but Grace Hopper was active technically until her death at 85. Talk about titles -- in her case, if we used some of the European forms, she'd have been Rear Admiral Doctor Hopper...not counting honorary doctorates. There's also the irrelevant PhD issue. Two esteemed colleagues, deep in routing theory, both have PhD's -- in physics. Neither of their dissertations had anything whatsoever to do with computer science. or at least not as high in esteem as you might think (master's degrees in business, engineering, or in the the liberal arts are a different story). I don't know about Europe, but at least in the US, a master's degree in mathematics (or any science) has the negative connotation of being a PhD-failure - the guy entered a PhD program but couldn't cut it, so the school bestowed upon him a master's degree as a consolation prize. In fact, most of the biggest-name math schools in the United States do not even offer a terminal-master's degree program. According to USNews and World Report, the top 5 graduate math programs in the US in alphabetical order are Berkeley, Harvard, MIT, Princeton, and Stanford (Caltech is actually not considered a top5 program). The only one of those schools that may offer a terminal master's degree in mathematics is Stanford, and I'm not even entirely sure they really do. I know Berkeley doesn't offer a terminal math degree, nor does Princeton, Caltech MIT, or Harvard (Harvard does offer a terminal master's in Applied Mathematics, but runs it under its engineering department - yes, Harvard actually has an engineering department). Instead, these schools grant master's degrees to PhD candidates who couldn't pass their quals. So in some cases, that master's degree could serve more as a hindrance than a help. For example, saying that you have a master's degree in math from Berkeley might impress some lay people, but every once in awhile, you'll run into some people who know what's up, and may start thinking you're a washout. So the point is, in the US anyway, if you want to pursue graduate study in mathematics, you should probably go all the way and get your PhD. Otherwise, don't do it at all. Get your MBA or something like that. Good Luck. Antonio Montana wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hi all, Maybe this topic is discussed several times but I still can't decide wether to go for the CCIE or to go back to a good business school for MBA. I am doing networking for 3 yrs now and can see that it's getting harder to find a good. Have all Cisco cert's except of the lab and some others Microsoft, Novell etc. and a Computer Science degree. The problem is, that here, in europe, some CCIE's are doing jobs like System or Network Administration, which is indeed not well paid at all. It's just like creating some user logins, assigning and administering IP addresses and do some entries or changes on DNS or even Exchange Servers. Ok I understand that, it's better than being unemployed. But is
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Group, Agree and inline with the plan for MBA. One thing which I wanted to add is after MBA too one has to start at not so high salaries and perks(hardly as what CCIE gets nowadays also). The best skills lies within people who do Technical for years and then shift the focus to Business consultant. So you start as Engineer, Technical conultant, Manager, Business consultant, GM and so on. Any additions? Regards, Kaushik Khakhar A From: nrf Reply-To: nrf To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:37:51 -0400 Drew wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sean Knox wrote: I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my CCNP, I amcontent with that for now and and getting more experience (fortunately I amnot some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing this awhile).Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA and I wish you luck.I made a similar decision myself within the last few weeks. I had planned on pursuing my CCIE-Security, but realize that I don't work enough with Cisco products on a daily basis, and certainly not with routing in a complex way, to feel that I would deserve the cert, even if I attained it. I'm going back to school for my MS in CS, starting classes in June. I think in the long run, an advanced degree is more of a benefit than an advanced vendor cert. But thats just me. Exactly. Especially later in your life. Fiddling with Cisco boxes might be cool now, but do you still want to be doing that when you're 50? Probably not, you probably want to be sitting in a director's chair ordering other young guys to set up the systems. It's hard to win promotion to that chair without an advanced education. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=41850t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=41922t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Hi, Thanks for the responses !! It was very interesting to read the previous postings. Sure, nobody can tell me to do this or that ... but to read your opinions about this topic was very informative. I really want to stay in the networking area but I don't want to stay in the lab overnight and configure boxes for the next 30 years. Right now, it makes fun. I just turned 27, so, not very old, but surely have to think about my career path as everyone does. I think that I'll go for the CCIE first and then in a couple of years move to the MBA path. I don't have an business degree and think that the combination of Computer Science/CCIE/MBA would be nice to have. Sure, I can just attend some Management trainings etc. but if I've the possibility to join a good Business school, why not ?!? The thing is that I don't want to kick away the chance to attend a MBA program also I don't want to loose the techincal things. There are pros and cons and I've to figure out the best for me, I guess. cheers tony Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=41923t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
At 2:35 PM -0400 4/18/02, nrf wrote: inline John Johnson wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I'd try the MBA or better yet a MS in CS. Then if market conditions change you can always stop the MS route and get the CCIE. If they don't, then you can get the CCIE afterwards. It's a better road with fewer bumps than going down a single path. Also, you'll want to consider getting the MBA after you get the MS. It appears to me that the big networking jobs like we saw in the mid to late nineties have all been built and unless you were in the right place at the right time a good job like we saw has disappeared until there is a paradigm shift in the market place. It seems to get the dream jobs right now the more education you have the better off you are. Especially if you have a Masters degree in Math from a big name school. In the States that would be from MIT, Cal-Tech, or say Harvard to name a few brand names. Be careful with that. In the States, master's degrees in sciences and mathematics are generally not held in very high-esteem, I'd tend to agree in traditional science fields like chemistry (my original major), but not in computer science/networking outside pure academia. I can look at an assortment of IETF leaders and find people anywhere from college dropout to PhD. Even some key academic researchers (not faculty) such as Scott Bradner have masters' degrees, not PhD's. This isn't just the Old Guard. A co-director of the IETF Routing Area, Abha Ahuja, died suddenly and tragically at the age of 27. She had a bachelor's degree. One of the Advisory Council members of ARIN got his appointment around his 21st or 22nd birthday. There are, however, people who are innovative architects and programmers in their 60s and possibly older. Not a networking person, but Grace Hopper was active technically until her death at 85. Talk about titles -- in her case, if we used some of the European forms, she'd have been Rear Admiral Doctor Hopper...not counting honorary doctorates. There's also the irrelevant PhD issue. Two esteemed colleagues, deep in routing theory, both have PhD's -- in physics. Neither of their dissertations had anything whatsoever to do with computer science. or at least not as high in esteem as you might think (master's degrees in business, engineering, or in the the liberal arts are a different story). I don't know about Europe, but at least in the US, a master's degree in mathematics (or any science) has the negative connotation of being a PhD-failure - the guy entered a PhD program but couldn't cut it, so the school bestowed upon him a master's degree as a consolation prize. In fact, most of the biggest-name math schools in the United States do not even offer a terminal-master's degree program. According to USNews and World Report, the top 5 graduate math programs in the US in alphabetical order are Berkeley, Harvard, MIT, Princeton, and Stanford (Caltech is actually not considered a top5 program). The only one of those schools that may offer a terminal master's degree in mathematics is Stanford, and I'm not even entirely sure they really do. I know Berkeley doesn't offer a terminal math degree, nor does Princeton, Caltech MIT, or Harvard (Harvard does offer a terminal master's in Applied Mathematics, but runs it under its engineering department - yes, Harvard actually has an engineering department). Instead, these schools grant master's degrees to PhD candidates who couldn't pass their quals. So in some cases, that master's degree could serve more as a hindrance than a help. For example, saying that you have a master's degree in math from Berkeley might impress some lay people, but every once in awhile, you'll run into some people who know what's up, and may start thinking you're a washout. So the point is, in the US anyway, if you want to pursue graduate study in mathematics, you should probably go all the way and get your PhD. Otherwise, don't do it at all. Get your MBA or something like that. Good Luck. Antonio Montana wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hi all, Maybe this topic is discussed several times but I still can't decide wether to go for the CCIE or to go back to a good business school for MBA. I am doing networking for 3 yrs now and can see that it's getting harder to find a good. Have all Cisco cert's except of the lab and some others Microsoft, Novell etc. and a Computer Science degree. The problem is, that here, in europe, some CCIE's are doing jobs like System or Network Administration, which is indeed not well paid at all. It's just like creating some user logins, assigning and administering IP addresses and do some entries or changes on DNS or even Exchange Servers. Ok I understand that, it's better than being unemployed. But is this a CCIE job ?? Really don't think so. I don't
RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Sagely advice from some good sources, especially the last one. --- Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man of value. - Albert Einstein Recognition is the greatest motivator. - Gerard C. Eakedale Sometimes one pays most for the things one gets for nothing. If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber. - Albert Einstein The advantage of a classical education is that it enables you to despise the wealth which it prevents you from achieving. Russell Green The man who starts out simply with the idea of getting rich won't succeed; you must have a larger ambition. - John D. Rockefeller I'd like to live as a poor man with lots of money. - Pablo Picasso Money often costs too much. - Ralph Waldo Emerson The best way to become boring is to say everything. - Voltaire It's good to shut up sometimes. - Marcel Marceau Happy Friday! Best, G. VP OGC Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=41958t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
I'd tend to agree in traditional science fields like chemistry (my original major), but not in computer science/networking outside pure academia. I can look at an assortment of IETF leaders and find people anywhere from college dropout to PhD. Even some key academic researchers (not faculty) such as Scott Bradner have masters' degrees, not PhD's. But notice that was why I was restricting my discussion to only the natural sciences and mathematics, where a master's degree may not be very positive, and could actually be negative. Different rules apply to, say, engineering (I still consider CS to be more engineering than natural science). And, of course, to business. This isn't just the Old Guard. A co-director of the IETF Routing Area, Abha Ahuja, died suddenly and tragically at the age of 27. She had a bachelor's degree. One of the Advisory Council members of ARIN got his appointment around his 21st or 22nd birthday. There are, however, people who are innovative architects and programmers in their 60s and possibly older. Not a networking person, but Grace Hopper was active technically until her death at 85. Talk about titles -- in her case, if we used some of the European forms, she'd have been Rear Admiral Doctor Hopper...not counting honorary doctorates. There's also the irrelevant PhD issue. Two esteemed colleagues, deep in routing theory, both have PhD's -- in physics. Neither of their dissertations had anything whatsoever to do with computer science. or at least not as high in esteem as you might think (master's degrees in business, engineering, or in the the liberal arts are a different story). I don't know about Europe, but at least in the US, a master's degree in mathematics (or any science) has the negative connotation of being a PhD-failure - the guy entered a PhD program but couldn't cut it, so the school bestowed upon him a master's degree as a consolation prize. In fact, most of the biggest-name math schools in the United States do not even offer a terminal-master's degree program. According to USNews and World Report, the top 5 graduate math programs in the US in alphabetical order are Berkeley, Harvard, MIT, Princeton, and Stanford (Caltech is actually not considered a top5 program). The only one of those schools that may offer a terminal master's degree in mathematics is Stanford, and I'm not even entirely sure they really do. I know Berkeley doesn't offer a terminal math degree, nor does Princeton, Caltech MIT, or Harvard (Harvard does offer a terminal master's in Applied Mathematics, but runs it under its engineering department - yes, Harvard actually has an engineering department). Instead, these schools grant master's degrees to PhD candidates who couldn't pass their quals. So in some cases, that master's degree could serve more as a hindrance than a help. For example, saying that you have a master's degree in math from Berkeley might impress some lay people, but every once in awhile, you'll run into some people who know what's up, and may start thinking you're a washout. So the point is, in the US anyway, if you want to pursue graduate study in mathematics, you should probably go all the way and get your PhD. Otherwise, don't do it at all. Get your MBA or something like that. Good Luck. Antonio Montana wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hi all, Maybe this topic is discussed several times but I still can't decide wether to go for the CCIE or to go back to a good business school for MBA. I am doing networking for 3 yrs now and can see that it's getting harder to find a good. Have all Cisco cert's except of the lab and some others Microsoft, Novell etc. and a Computer Science degree. The problem is, that here, in europe, some CCIE's are doing jobs like System or Network Administration, which is indeed not well paid at all. It's just like creating some user logins, assigning and administering IP addresses and do some entries or changes on DNS or even Exchange Servers. Ok I understand that, it's better than being unemployed. But is this a CCIE job ?? Really don't think so. I don't know when the telco market is going up again, but I really think about going to school and getting a management education. Jobs for MBA's are still there. Who knows if and when the market will give back the CCIE's the recognition they earn ?!? So, should I stop my track towards the CCIE and go to the dark side ?? What do you think guys ?? cheers tony -- What Problem are you trying to solve? ***send Cisco questions to the list, so all can benefit -- not directly to me*** Howard C. Berkowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chief Technology Officer, GettLab/Gett Communications
RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
At 11:35 AM -0400 4/19/02, Hartnell, George wrote: Sagely advice from some good sources, especially the last one. --- It's good to shut up sometimes. - Marcel Marceau True fiendishness is evidenced when one plays a blank music CD at full stereo volume, with the intention of driving the mime next door out of his mind. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=41981t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
You sound like me, Robert. ;-) I can't make myself spend hours getting redistribution working between a bunch of protocols running on routers running a bunch of non-standard features with buggy OS versions. (the reason I'm lacking my CCIE) But I love technology, protocols, tweaking network performance, solving problems, etc. So I couldn't get out of the tekkie world. I have a humanistic bent also. One of the very interesting things about management is getting to know all the different personalities, what motivates people, what scares people, how can you help people balance work and life, etc. If the Oregon economy ever picks up and I get off my butt and get employed again, it will probably be working with more people than routers. Priscilla At 01:00 AM 4/19/02, Robert Padjen wrote: This has been a great thread. Having endured Cisco certifications and an MBA program, I might suggest that you opt for both paths over time and prioritize on what is of value now. I completed neither, but the value of both was an alteration of perspective. My focus has always been on the humanistic side of networking (I am interested in BGP as-path manipulations, but I'm willing to let my techie friends figure it out). It works because I like listening to the balding white guy in the corner office, knowing that he is a _, and helping him see the technical light without using a TLA. Bouncing between the worlds has been a lot of fun for me, and few in the industry enjoy doing it (my perspective), which makes for a neat niche. I will never be a 'manager only', nor will I surpass my BGP guru on pure tech, but the team is strong and we complement each other. You may wish to jump between paths since you clearly appear to have an interest in both arenas. Then again, you may find that one clearly is a better fit for your needs. Good luck. --- Wes Stevens wrote: I guess my point is that you will eventually hit a point in your career where you have to decide if you want to stay technical or go into management. For everyone it is different. For me it was a no brainer - I hated the paperwork and budgets ect. But another thing to keep in mind is like you said where do you want to be when your are 50. For me middle management is the pits. I have seen people come to work here and get their MBA degree from U of M at night paid for by the company. Did it hurt their careers? No for sure not. But did they ever make it out of middle management - no. Maybe other companies are different but to make it here you have to have to pedigree comming out of school i.e. stick it out for an MBA and it better be from a top tier (and no U of M is not on the list) school. If not you will never see an upper management position. From: Kaminski, Shawn G Reply-To: Kaminski, Shawn G To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 17:39:39 -0400 Many of you may have seen this, but it looks like this guy has got it all!! :-) He has a little bit to say about graduate school and the CCIE. Basically, interesting reading. Click here (watch for word wrap) http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/625/ccie/ccie_program/spotlight.html Shawn K. -Original Message- From: nrf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 4:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] I understand. But on the other hand, if you have ambitions to be the CxO, a CCIE isn't going to cut it. Like you said, it's a case of what you want out of life. However, what I will definitely say is this. If you work for a company that is willing to finance your degree at night school, you're a fool not to take it. If you're not the one paying for it, you should get as many degrees as you can, because you never know what's going to happen in the future. Wes Stevens wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... A lot of it is what you want out of life. I will be 50 in 5 years and am perfectly happy playing with cisco's. I make more money then my boss with the mba does and have more job security. What happens if you get laid off at 45 or 50 with a middle to upper management job? If you are not way up there in the corner office area you are going to have a hard time finding a job. I work for a company in the fortune top 5 that is very stable. Yet this economy is hitting us also. They are going to cut my office way back from 500 people to 200 by the end of the year. They will offer me a job in Houston as they can always find a spot for a cisco network engineer. My boss and a lot of other are really scrambling. There are no jobs in the local market and less chances of them finding a place in another part of the company as they are cutting back everywhere. Just s
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Howard C. Berkowitz wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... At 11:35 AM -0400 4/19/02, Hartnell, George wrote: Sagely advice from some good sources, especially the last one. --- It's good to shut up sometimes. - Marcel Marceau True fiendishness is evidenced when one plays a blank music CD at full stereo volume, with the intention of driving the mime next door out of his mind. Hey now, that's an old Stephen Wright joke. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=42001t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Thats not necessarily true. Bill Gates is an excellent example of someone with limited education, who went on to be a force to be reckoned with in the business world. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of nrf Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] I understand. But on the other hand, if you have ambitions to be the CxO, a CCIE isn't going to cut it. Like you said, it's a case of what you want out of life. However, what I will definitely say is this. If you work for a company that is willing to finance your degree at night school, you're a fool not to take it. If you're not the one paying for it, you should get as many degrees as you can, because you never know what's going to happen in the future. Wes Stevens wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... A lot of it is what you want out of life. I will be 50 in 5 years and am perfectly happy playing with cisco's. I make more money then my boss with the mba does and have more job security. What happens if you get laid off at 45 or 50 with a middle to upper management job? If you are not way up there in the corner office area you are going to have a hard time finding a job. I work for a company in the fortune top 5 that is very stable. Yet this economy is hitting us also. They are going to cut my office way back from 500 people to 200 by the end of the year. They will offer me a job in Houston as they can always find a spot for a cisco network engineer. My boss and a lot of other are really scrambling. There are no jobs in the local market and less chances of them finding a place in another part of the company as they are cutting back everywhere. Just some food for thought. From: nrf Reply-To: nrf To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:37:51 -0400 Drew wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sean Knox wrote: I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my CCNP, I am content with that for now and and getting more experience (fortunately I am not some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing this awhile). Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA and I wish you luck. I made a similar decision myself within the last few weeks. I had planned on pursuing my CCIE-Security, but realize that I don't work enough with Cisco products on a daily basis, and certainly not with routing in a complex way, to feel that I would deserve the cert, even if I attained it. I'm going back to school for my MS in CS, starting classes in June. I think in the long run, an advanced degree is more of a benefit than an advanced vendor cert. But thats just me. Exactly. Especially later in your life. Fiddling with Cisco boxes might be cool now, but do you still want to be doing that when you're 50? Probably not, you probably want to be sitting in a director's chair ordering other young guys to set up the systems. It's hard to win promotion to that chair without an advanced education. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=42008t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Howard C. Berkowitz wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... At 11:35 AM -0400 4/19/02, Hartnell, George wrote: Sagely advice from some good sources, especially the last one. --- It's good to shut up sometimes. - Marcel Marceau True fiendishness is evidenced when one plays a blank music CD at full stereo volume, with the intention of driving the mime next door out of his mind. Hey now, that's an old Stephen Wright joke. Lobachevsky Tom Lehrer Who made me the genius I am today, The mathematician that others all quote, Who's the professor that made me that way? The greatest that ever got chalk on his coat. One man deserves the credit, One man deserves the blame, And Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name. Hi! Nicolai Ivanovich Lobach- I am never forget the day I first meet the great Lochevsky. In one word he told me secret of success in mathematics: Plagiarize! Plagiarize, Let no one else's work evade your eyes, Remember why the good Lord made your eyes, So don't shade your eyes, But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize - Only be sure always to call it please 'research'. And ever since I meet this man My life is not the same, And Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name. Hi! Nicolai Ivanovich Lobach- I am never forget the day I am given first original paper to write. It was on analytic and algebraic topology of locally Euclidean metrization of infinitely differentiable Riemannian manifold. Bozhe moi! This I know from nothing. But I think of great Lobachevsky and get idea - ahah! I have a friend in Minsk, Who has a friend in Pinsk, Whose friend in Omsk Has friend in Tomsk With friend in Akmolinsk. His friend in Alexandrovsk Has friend in Petropavlovsk, Whose friend somehow Is solving now The problem in Dnepropetrovsk. And when his work is done - Haha! - begins the fun. From Dnepropetrovsk To Petropavlovsk, By way of Iliysk, And Novorossiysk, To Alexandrovsk to Akmolinsk To Tomsk to Omsk To Pinsk to Minsk To me the news will run, Yes, to me the news will run! And then I write By morning, night, And afternoon, And pretty soon My name in Dnepropetrovsk is cursed, When he finds out I publish first! And who made me a big success And brought me wealth and fame? Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name. Hi! Nicolai Ivanovish Lobach - I am never forget the day my first book is published. Every chapter I stole from somewhere else. Index I copy from old Vladivostok telephone directory. This book was sensational! Pravda - well, Pravda - Pravda said: (Russian double-talk) It stinks. But Izvestia! Izvestia said: (Russian double-talk) It stinks. Metro-Goldwyn-Moskva buys movie rights for six million rubles, Changing title to 'The Eternal Triangle', With Ingrid Bergman playing part of hypotenuse. And who deserves the credit? And who deserves the blame? Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name. Hi! Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=42010t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
A fair amount of people who focused their academic pursuits on natural sciences/mathematics work in the private sector. Some of them have jobs which apply concepts concrete knowledge that was part of their curriculum. Some of them pusued a masters because they could actually learn something about their field of interest (which can be profoundly hard to do within undergrad programs) or it helped advance their pursuit of compensation or responsibility. Some really competent Masters students opted to not pursue PhDs because of the prospects of divorce and minimal returns based on their current job status. If they can't pass the quals, I'm not sure the conferring of the Masters is in order. Conversely, there are PLENTY of good reasons to NOT let someone in a PhD. program even if they CAN or DO pass their quals. I've encountered plenty of cases where better experiences can be had with Mathematics BS grads than CS MS grads, because the math folk don't assume that four years of algorithms programming (and ponentially many other topics except real-world microcomputer-based support networking issues-diclaimer, I'm aware that that is changing at the painfully slow pace that most curriculms adhere to when reforming themselves, but the damage is done) entitle them to godlike status where their intuitions concerning technologies, formal systems and issues that they have had NO PRACTICAL experience with are concerned. As far as the CS folk in question are concerned, since they already know everything, they can be VERY difficult to train. (I'm aware of the existence of exceptions, but they are not the ones making laughingstocks of their respective IT groups, so they do not occupy as prominent a place in my consciousness) It's interesting that you align CS with engineering, since the knowledge-gathering aspect of CS adheres better to the rhetoric and ideals of the natural sciences ever could, due to the nature of the subject matter. Dragging back in the original question, the CCIE somewhat affirms the ability to perform hands-on work and apply concepts in unfamiliar contexts with success slightly quicker than random trial and error generally produce in a vendor-specific state-space. Its ameliorative influence upon your career is somewhat dependent upon Cisco's success, IT's success and your personal goals. I see high level networking jobs where a masters in computer science is a prerequisite for having your resume read (very effecient, since it reveals two things: that human resource folk still misunderstand that you can sneak by a CS program without an acceptable understanding of how electrical patterns present on one computing device can magically be made to replicate themselves on a remote computing device through the wonders of networking, and that the employer in question is explicitly choosing to use a filter that will quickly reduce the numbers of resumes that have to actually be read, even though that might rule out some of the best candidates). Whether or not the hands-on and advanced conceptual knowledge are relevant to higher-level jobs is industry even company dependent, but you can bet that if a company can make it irrelevant so that they don't have to compensate you for that knowledge, they will. An MBA is supposed to provide you with the cognitive wherewithal to lead the overall success of business efforts, which in many cases requires leaders to delve into profoundly non-technical issues. If, following the completion of your desired course of study, you wish to deal with people financial issues outright, by all means go for the MBA. The situation (besides, of course, hands-on) where not having a CCIE might hurt you is if you have to lead a team of them, and your role requires you to understand issues at their level in order to communicate with them or make successful customer-related decisions. - Original Message - From: nrf To: Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 11:55 AM Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] I'd tend to agree in traditional science fields like chemistry (my original major), but not in computer science/networking outside pure academia. I can look at an assortment of IETF leaders and find people anywhere from college dropout to PhD. Even some key academic researchers (not faculty) such as Scott Bradner have masters' degrees, not PhD's. But notice that was why I was restricting my discussion to only the natural sciences and mathematics, where a master's degree may not be very positive, and could actually be negative. Different rules apply to, say, engineering (I still consider CS to be more engineering than natural science). And, of course, to business. This isn't just the Old Guard. A co-director of the IETF Routing Area, Abha Ahuja, died suddenly and tragically at the age of 27. She had a bachelor's degree. One of the Advisory Council members of ARIN got his appointment around his 21st or 22nd birthday. There are, however, people
RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
At 4:25 PM -0400 4/19/02, William Gragido wrote: Thats not necessarily true. Bill Gates is an excellent example of someone with limited education, who went on to be a force to be reckoned with in the business world. I'd offer the friendly amendment that Bill Gates has limited academic credentials, but is superbly self-educated, and has the communications skills to make that obvious very quickly. That being said, if there's an opportunity for paid academic training early in one's career, take it. At the time I started in the field, there really were no meaningful computer science programs, so that wasn't an option. At this point, any type of degree wouldn't really affect my marketability, with one caveat. I'd like to be able to teach part-time in a graduate curriculum, and a PhD tends to be the required credential there. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of nrf Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] I understand. But on the other hand, if you have ambitions to be the CxO, a CCIE isn't going to cut it. Like you said, it's a case of what you want out of life. However, what I will definitely say is this. If you work for a company that is willing to finance your degree at night school, you're a fool not to take it. If you're not the one paying for it, you should get as many degrees as you can, because you never know what's going to happen in the future. Wes Stevens wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... A lot of it is what you want out of life. I will be 50 in 5 years and am perfectly happy playing with cisco's. I make more money then my boss with the mba does and have more job security. What happens if you get laid off at 45 or 50 with a middle to upper management job? If you are not way up there in the corner office area you are going to have a hard time finding a job. I work for a company in the fortune top 5 that is very stable. Yet this economy is hitting us also. They are going to cut my office way back from 500 people to 200 by the end of the year. They will offer me a job in Houston as they can always find a spot for a cisco network engineer. My boss and a lot of other are really scrambling. There are no jobs in the local market and less chances of them finding a place in another part of the company as they are cutting back everywhere. Just some food for thought. From: nrf Reply-To: nrf To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:37:51 -0400 Drew wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sean Knox wrote: I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my CCNP, I am content with that for now and and getting more experience (fortunately I am not some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing this awhile). Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA and I wish you luck. I made a similar decision myself within the last few weeks. I had planned on pursuing my CCIE-Security, but realize that I don't work enough with Cisco products on a daily basis, and certainly not with routing in a complex way, to feel that I would deserve the cert, even if I attained it. I'm going back to school for my MS in CS, starting classes in June. I think in the long run, an advanced degree is more of a benefit than an advanced vendor cert. But thats just me. Exactly. Especially later in your life. Fiddling with Cisco boxes might be cool now, but do you still want to be doing that when you're 50? Probably not, you probably want to be sitting in a director's chair ordering other young guys to set up the systems. It's hard to win promotion to that chair without an advanced education. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=42020t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
In my opinion, I think it all depends on just how much you like doing IT stuff, regardless of what you're doing (System Admin, Network Admin, etc.). Personally, I love doing IT and would prefer the CCIE over an MBA, even if the salary isn't great right now. Sure it's fun to complain about how underpaid most of us are right now but the bottom line is: Make sure you're going to enjoy what you're doing. A big salary won't help if you're miserable at work every day. Shawn K. -Original Message- From: Antonio Montana [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 5:07 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: OT: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Hi all, Maybe this topic is discussed several times but I still can't decide wether to go for the CCIE or to go back to a good business school for MBA. I am doing networking for 3 yrs now and can see that it's getting harder to find a good. Have all Cisco cert's except of the lab and some others Microsoft, Novell etc. and a Computer Science degree. The problem is, that here, in europe, some CCIE's are doing jobs like System or Network Administration, which is indeed not well paid at all. It's just like creating some user logins, assigning and administering IP addresses and do some entries or changes on DNS or even Exchange Servers. Ok I understand that, it's better than being unemployed. But is this a CCIE job ?? Really don't think so. I don't know when the telco market is going up again, but I really think about going to school and getting a management education. Jobs for MBA's are still there. Who knows if and when the market will give back the CCIE's the recognition they earn ?!? So, should I stop my track towards the CCIE and go to the dark side ?? What do you think guys ?? cheers tony Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=41812t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
I'd try the MBA or better yet a MS in CS. Then if market conditions change you can always stop the MS route and get the CCIE. If they don't, then you can get the CCIE afterwards. It's a better road with fewer bumps than going down a single path. Also, you'll want to consider getting the MBA after you get the MS. It appears to me that the big networking jobs like we saw in the mid to late nineties have all been built and unless you were in the right place at the right time a good job like we saw has disappeared until there is a paradigm shift in the market place. It seems to get the dream jobs right now the more education you have the better off you are. Especially if you have a Masters degree in Math from a big name school. In the States that would be from MIT, Cal-Tech, or say Harvard to name a few brand names. Good Luck. Antonio Montana wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hi all, Maybe this topic is discussed several times but I still can't decide wether to go for the CCIE or to go back to a good business school for MBA. I am doing networking for 3 yrs now and can see that it's getting harder to find a good. Have all Cisco cert's except of the lab and some others Microsoft, Novell etc. and a Computer Science degree. The problem is, that here, in europe, some CCIE's are doing jobs like System or Network Administration, which is indeed not well paid at all. It's just like creating some user logins, assigning and administering IP addresses and do some entries or changes on DNS or even Exchange Servers. Ok I understand that, it's better than being unemployed. But is this a CCIE job ?? Really don't think so. I don't know when the telco market is going up again, but I really think about going to school and getting a management education. Jobs for MBA's are still there. Who knows if and when the market will give back the CCIE's the recognition they earn ?!? So, should I stop my track towards the CCIE and go to the dark side ?? What do you think guys ?? cheers tony Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=41813t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
I was considering both options I have a MIS degree from The Ohio State University. After getting my CCNP and working for a large ISP and seeing a co-worker pass the lab and get nothing but a pat on the back from our company; I made the decision to enroll in an MBA program this fall. After carefully reviewing my options, I did not want to put myself in such a nich market. I think you need to ask yourself where can you go with a CCIE? ISP, Consult, work for yourself. I know there are other companies that would hire a CCIE but you probably would not be utalized to your full potential. Also, a MBA does not expire and if you ever want to be a CTO or CIO most likely you are going to need the education. I have debated this same topic with my friends and co-workers and there is no easy answer. I think it is personal preference but I will say a few things about the CCIE, salaries are coming down due to the fact that there are more CCIE's(some are not the experts they should be). The only reason I say this is once you get your CCIE you should be an expert hence Internetworking Expert. I know people may disagree with some of these statements, but I have seen some CCIE candidates that have issues with basic skills. Daniel Ladrach CCNA, CCNP WorldCom -Original Message- From: Antonio Montana [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 5:07 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: OT: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Hi all, Maybe this topic is discussed several times but I still can't decide wether to go for the CCIE or to go back to a good business school for MBA. I am doing networking for 3 yrs now and can see that it's getting harder to find a good. Have all Cisco cert's except of the lab and some others Microsoft, Novell etc. and a Computer Science degree. The problem is, that here, in europe, some CCIE's are doing jobs like System or Network Administration, which is indeed not well paid at all. It's just like creating some user logins, assigning and administering IP addresses and do some entries or changes on DNS or even Exchange Servers. Ok I understand that, it's better than being unemployed. But is this a CCIE job ?? Really don't think so. I don't know when the telco market is going up again, but I really think about going to school and getting a management education. Jobs for MBA's are still there. Who knows if and when the market will give back the CCIE's the recognition they earn ?!? So, should I stop my track towards the CCIE and go to the dark side ?? What do you think guys ?? cheers tony Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=41820t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Sure, there are plenty of companies that would hire a CCIE, but you have to remember, a CCIE has is supposed to have years of experience in large, complex routing and switching setups. A real CCIE, or should I say, a CCIE with plenty of experience (i.e., the exact demographic the cert is supposed to appeal to), will have no problem finding work or consulting. Pay varies, but work is out there for senior positions, even here in southern california (as I pleasantly discovered). The point to take home that has been emphasized many times is the dot.bomb days are over, and you can't secure a 6 figure salary on basis of a CCIE alone. I believe someone in the group said earlier, you'll get laughed out of a technical interview if you are a CCIE with only couple years of IT experience (or less). I would agree for the most part. I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my CCNP, I am content with that for now and and getting more experience (fortunately I am not some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing this awhile). Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA and I wish you luck. Sean -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Ladrach, Daniel E. Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 6:31 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] I was considering both options I have a MIS degree from The Ohio State University. After getting my CCNP and working for a large ISP and seeing a co-worker pass the lab and get nothing but a pat on the back from our company; I made the decision to enroll in an MBA program this fall. After carefully reviewing my options, I did not want to put myself in such a nich market. I think you need to ask yourself where can you go with a CCIE? ISP, Consult, work for yourself. I know there are other companies that would hire a CCIE but you probably would not be utalized to your full potential. Also, a MBA does not expire and if you ever want to be a CTO or CIO most likely you are going to need the education. I have debated this same topic with my friends and co-workers and there is no easy answer. I think it is personal preference but I will say a few things about the CCIE, salaries are coming down due to the fact that there are more CCIE's(some are not the experts they should be). The only reason I say this is once you get your CCIE you should be an expert hence Internetworking Expert. I know people may disagree with some of these statements, but I have seen some CCIE candidates that have issues with basic skills. Daniel Ladrach CCNA, CCNP WorldCom -Original Message- From: Antonio Montana [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 5:07 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: OT: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Hi all, Maybe this topic is discussed several times but I still can't decide wether to go for the CCIE or to go back to a good business school for MBA. I am doing networking for 3 yrs now and can see that it's getting harder to find a good. Have all Cisco cert's except of the lab and some others Microsoft, Novell etc. and a Computer Science degree. The problem is, that here, in europe, some CCIE's are doing jobs like System or Network Administration, which is indeed not well paid at all. It's just like creating some user logins, assigning and administering IP addresses and do some entries or changes on DNS or even Exchange Servers. Ok I understand that, it's better than being unemployed. But is this a CCIE job ?? Really don't think so. I don't know when the telco market is going up again, but I really think about going to school and getting a management education. Jobs for MBA's are still there. Who knows if and when the market will give back the CCIE's the recognition they earn ?!? So, should I stop my track towards the CCIE and go to the dark side ?? What do you think guys ?? cheers tony Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=41833t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Sean Knox wrote: I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my CCNP, I am content with that for now and and getting more experience (fortunately I am not some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing this awhile). Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA and I wish you luck. I made a similar decision myself within the last few weeks. I had planned on pursuing my CCIE-Security, but realize that I don't work enough with Cisco products on a daily basis, and certainly not with routing in a complex way, to feel that I would deserve the cert, even if I attained it. I'm going back to school for my MS in CS, starting classes in June. I think in the long run, an advanced degree is more of a benefit than an advanced vendor cert. But thats just me. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=41848t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
inline John Johnson wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I'd try the MBA or better yet a MS in CS. Then if market conditions change you can always stop the MS route and get the CCIE. If they don't, then you can get the CCIE afterwards. It's a better road with fewer bumps than going down a single path. Also, you'll want to consider getting the MBA after you get the MS. It appears to me that the big networking jobs like we saw in the mid to late nineties have all been built and unless you were in the right place at the right time a good job like we saw has disappeared until there is a paradigm shift in the market place. It seems to get the dream jobs right now the more education you have the better off you are. Especially if you have a Masters degree in Math from a big name school. In the States that would be from MIT, Cal-Tech, or say Harvard to name a few brand names. Be careful with that. In the States, master's degrees in sciences and mathematics are generally not held in very high-esteem, or at least not as high in esteem as you might think (master's degrees in business, engineering, or in the the liberal arts are a different story). I don't know about Europe, but at least in the US, a master's degree in mathematics (or any science) has the negative connotation of being a PhD-failure - the guy entered a PhD program but couldn't cut it, so the school bestowed upon him a master's degree as a consolation prize. In fact, most of the biggest-name math schools in the United States do not even offer a terminal-master's degree program. According to USNews and World Report, the top 5 graduate math programs in the US in alphabetical order are Berkeley, Harvard, MIT, Princeton, and Stanford (Caltech is actually not considered a top5 program). The only one of those schools that may offer a terminal master's degree in mathematics is Stanford, and I'm not even entirely sure they really do. I know Berkeley doesn't offer a terminal math degree, nor does Princeton, Caltech MIT, or Harvard (Harvard does offer a terminal master's in Applied Mathematics, but runs it under its engineering department - yes, Harvard actually has an engineering department). Instead, these schools grant master's degrees to PhD candidates who couldn't pass their quals. So in some cases, that master's degree could serve more as a hindrance than a help. For example, saying that you have a master's degree in math from Berkeley might impress some lay people, but every once in awhile, you'll run into some people who know what's up, and may start thinking you're a washout. So the point is, in the US anyway, if you want to pursue graduate study in mathematics, you should probably go all the way and get your PhD. Otherwise, don't do it at all. Get your MBA or something like that. Good Luck. Antonio Montana wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hi all, Maybe this topic is discussed several times but I still can't decide wether to go for the CCIE or to go back to a good business school for MBA. I am doing networking for 3 yrs now and can see that it's getting harder to find a good. Have all Cisco cert's except of the lab and some others Microsoft, Novell etc. and a Computer Science degree. The problem is, that here, in europe, some CCIE's are doing jobs like System or Network Administration, which is indeed not well paid at all. It's just like creating some user logins, assigning and administering IP addresses and do some entries or changes on DNS or even Exchange Servers. Ok I understand that, it's better than being unemployed. But is this a CCIE job ?? Really don't think so. I don't know when the telco market is going up again, but I really think about going to school and getting a management education. Jobs for MBA's are still there. Who knows if and when the market will give back the CCIE's the recognition they earn ?!? So, should I stop my track towards the CCIE and go to the dark side ?? What do you think guys ?? cheers tony Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=41849t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Drew wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sean Knox wrote: I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my CCNP, I am content with that for now and and getting more experience (fortunately I am not some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing this awhile). Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA and I wish you luck. I made a similar decision myself within the last few weeks. I had planned on pursuing my CCIE-Security, but realize that I don't work enough with Cisco products on a daily basis, and certainly not with routing in a complex way, to feel that I would deserve the cert, even if I attained it. I'm going back to school for my MS in CS, starting classes in June. I think in the long run, an advanced degree is more of a benefit than an advanced vendor cert. But thats just me. Exactly. Especially later in your life. Fiddling with Cisco boxes might be cool now, but do you still want to be doing that when you're 50? Probably not, you probably want to be sitting in a director's chair ordering other young guys to set up the systems. It's hard to win promotion to that chair without an advanced education. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=41850t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
A lot of it is what you want out of life. I will be 50 in 5 years and am perfectly happy playing with cisco's. I make more money then my boss with the mba does and have more job security. What happens if you get laid off at 45 or 50 with a middle to upper management job? If you are not way up there in the corner office area you are going to have a hard time finding a job. I work for a company in the fortune top 5 that is very stable. Yet this economy is hitting us also. They are going to cut my office way back from 500 people to 200 by the end of the year. They will offer me a job in Houston as they can always find a spot for a cisco network engineer. My boss and a lot of other are really scrambling. There are no jobs in the local market and less chances of them finding a place in another part of the company as they are cutting back everywhere. Just some food for thought. From: nrf Reply-To: nrf To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:37:51 -0400 Drew wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sean Knox wrote: I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my CCNP, I am content with that for now and and getting more experience (fortunately I am not some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing this awhile). Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA and I wish you luck. I made a similar decision myself within the last few weeks. I had planned on pursuing my CCIE-Security, but realize that I don't work enough with Cisco products on a daily basis, and certainly not with routing in a complex way, to feel that I would deserve the cert, even if I attained it. I'm going back to school for my MS in CS, starting classes in June. I think in the long run, an advanced degree is more of a benefit than an advanced vendor cert. But thats just me. Exactly. Especially later in your life. Fiddling with Cisco boxes might be cool now, but do you still want to be doing that when you're 50? Probably not, you probably want to be sitting in a director's chair ordering other young guys to set up the systems. It's hard to win promotion to that chair without an advanced education. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=41865t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
I understand. But on the other hand, if you have ambitions to be the CxO, a CCIE isn't going to cut it. Like you said, it's a case of what you want out of life. However, what I will definitely say is this. If you work for a company that is willing to finance your degree at night school, you're a fool not to take it. If you're not the one paying for it, you should get as many degrees as you can, because you never know what's going to happen in the future. Wes Stevens wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... A lot of it is what you want out of life. I will be 50 in 5 years and am perfectly happy playing with cisco's. I make more money then my boss with the mba does and have more job security. What happens if you get laid off at 45 or 50 with a middle to upper management job? If you are not way up there in the corner office area you are going to have a hard time finding a job. I work for a company in the fortune top 5 that is very stable. Yet this economy is hitting us also. They are going to cut my office way back from 500 people to 200 by the end of the year. They will offer me a job in Houston as they can always find a spot for a cisco network engineer. My boss and a lot of other are really scrambling. There are no jobs in the local market and less chances of them finding a place in another part of the company as they are cutting back everywhere. Just some food for thought. From: nrf Reply-To: nrf To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:37:51 -0400 Drew wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sean Knox wrote: I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my CCNP, I am content with that for now and and getting more experience (fortunately I am not some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing this awhile). Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA and I wish you luck. I made a similar decision myself within the last few weeks. I had planned on pursuing my CCIE-Security, but realize that I don't work enough with Cisco products on a daily basis, and certainly not with routing in a complex way, to feel that I would deserve the cert, even if I attained it. I'm going back to school for my MS in CS, starting classes in June. I think in the long run, an advanced degree is more of a benefit than an advanced vendor cert. But thats just me. Exactly. Especially later in your life. Fiddling with Cisco boxes might be cool now, but do you still want to be doing that when you're 50? Probably not, you probably want to be sitting in a director's chair ordering other young guys to set up the systems. It's hard to win promotion to that chair without an advanced education. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=41869t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Many of you may have seen this, but it looks like this guy has got it all!! :-) He has a little bit to say about graduate school and the CCIE. Basically, interesting reading. Click here (watch for word wrap) http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/625/ccie/ccie_program/spotlight.html Shawn K. -Original Message- From: nrf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 4:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] I understand. But on the other hand, if you have ambitions to be the CxO, a CCIE isn't going to cut it. Like you said, it's a case of what you want out of life. However, what I will definitely say is this. If you work for a company that is willing to finance your degree at night school, you're a fool not to take it. If you're not the one paying for it, you should get as many degrees as you can, because you never know what's going to happen in the future. Wes Stevens wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... A lot of it is what you want out of life. I will be 50 in 5 years and am perfectly happy playing with cisco's. I make more money then my boss with the mba does and have more job security. What happens if you get laid off at 45 or 50 with a middle to upper management job? If you are not way up there in the corner office area you are going to have a hard time finding a job. I work for a company in the fortune top 5 that is very stable. Yet this economy is hitting us also. They are going to cut my office way back from 500 people to 200 by the end of the year. They will offer me a job in Houston as they can always find a spot for a cisco network engineer. My boss and a lot of other are really scrambling. There are no jobs in the local market and less chances of them finding a place in another part of the company as they are cutting back everywhere. Just some food for thought. From: nrf Reply-To: nrf To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:37:51 -0400 Drew wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sean Knox wrote: I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my CCNP, I am content with that for now and and getting more experience (fortunately I am not some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing this awhile). Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA and I wish you luck. I made a similar decision myself within the last few weeks. I had planned on pursuing my CCIE-Security, but realize that I don't work enough with Cisco products on a daily basis, and certainly not with routing in a complex way, to feel that I would deserve the cert, even if I attained it. I'm going back to school for my MS in CS, starting classes in June. I think in the long run, an advanced degree is more of a benefit than an advanced vendor cert. But thats just me. Exactly. Especially later in your life. Fiddling with Cisco boxes might be cool now, but do you still want to be doing that when you're 50? Probably not, you probably want to be sitting in a director's chair ordering other young guys to set up the systems. It's hard to win promotion to that chair without an advanced education. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=41881t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
i am into netoworking field since 5 years but haven't got opportunity to work in real networking projects coz I usually worked in SNMP related projects and for sometime in wireless domain and I have never been an IT administrator. I have done CCNA and preparing for CCNP. Before CCNA, I was not well versed in networking technologies coz i never got any opportunity to work in them. CCNA and now preps for CCNP is helping me a lot to know some concepts about different technologies and how they are actually used in real world. But to be frank, gaining knowledge is one thing, but i wonder if CCNP will be of any help for my future jobs or atleast add some value to my resume coz I have very little experience with cisco boxes. And in present job scene, just good knowledge of any technology is not going to cut it.U need some real experience. and without actual project work, u cannot get real experience.Therefore, I am back to same old problem Someone wrote that even CCIE with little or no IT experience is of no use. So,may be, higher studies can be a better option for guys like me. - Original Message - From: nrf To: Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 1:10 PM Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] I understand. But on the other hand, if you have ambitions to be the CxO, a CCIE isn't going to cut it. Like you said, it's a case of what you want out of life. However, what I will definitely say is this. If you work for a company that is willing to finance your degree at night school, you're a fool not to take it. If you're not the one paying for it, you should get as many degrees as you can, because you never know what's going to happen in the future. Wes Stevens wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... A lot of it is what you want out of life. I will be 50 in 5 years and am perfectly happy playing with cisco's. I make more money then my boss with the mba does and have more job security. What happens if you get laid off at 45 or 50 with a middle to upper management job? If you are not way up there in the corner office area you are going to have a hard time finding a job. I work for a company in the fortune top 5 that is very stable. Yet this economy is hitting us also. They are going to cut my office way back from 500 people to 200 by the end of the year. They will offer me a job in Houston as they can always find a spot for a cisco network engineer. My boss and a lot of other are really scrambling. There are no jobs in the local market and less chances of them finding a place in another part of the company as they are cutting back everywhere. Just some food for thought. From: nrf Reply-To: nrf To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:37:51 -0400 Drew wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sean Knox wrote: I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my CCNP, I am content with that for now and and getting more experience (fortunately I am not some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing this awhile). Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA and I wish you luck. I made a similar decision myself within the last few weeks. I had planned on pursuing my CCIE-Security, but realize that I don't work enough with Cisco products on a daily basis, and certainly not with routing in a complex way, to feel that I would deserve the cert, even if I attained it. I'm going back to school for my MS in CS, starting classes in June. I think in the long run, an advanced degree is more of a benefit than an advanced vendor cert. But thats just me. Exactly. Especially later in your life. Fiddling with Cisco boxes might be cool now, but do you still want to be doing that when you're 50? Probably not, you probably want to be sitting in a director's chair ordering other young guys to set up the systems. It's hard to win promotion to that chair without an advanced education. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=41883t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
I guess my point is that you will eventually hit a point in your career where you have to decide if you want to stay technical or go into management. For everyone it is different. For me it was a no brainer - I hated the paperwork and budgets ect. But another thing to keep in mind is like you said where do you want to be when your are 50. For me middle management is the pits. I have seen people come to work here and get their MBA degree from U of M at night paid for by the company. Did it hurt their careers? No for sure not. But did they ever make it out of middle management - no. Maybe other companies are different but to make it here you have to have to pedigree comming out of school i.e. stick it out for an MBA and it better be from a top tier (and no U of M is not on the list) school. If not you will never see an upper management position. From: Kaminski, Shawn G Reply-To: Kaminski, Shawn G To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 17:39:39 -0400 Many of you may have seen this, but it looks like this guy has got it all!! :-) He has a little bit to say about graduate school and the CCIE. Basically, interesting reading. Click here (watch for word wrap) http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/625/ccie/ccie_program/spotlight.html Shawn K. -Original Message- From: nrf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 4:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] I understand. But on the other hand, if you have ambitions to be the CxO, a CCIE isn't going to cut it. Like you said, it's a case of what you want out of life. However, what I will definitely say is this. If you work for a company that is willing to finance your degree at night school, you're a fool not to take it. If you're not the one paying for it, you should get as many degrees as you can, because you never know what's going to happen in the future. Wes Stevens wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... A lot of it is what you want out of life. I will be 50 in 5 years and am perfectly happy playing with cisco's. I make more money then my boss with the mba does and have more job security. What happens if you get laid off at 45 or 50 with a middle to upper management job? If you are not way up there in the corner office area you are going to have a hard time finding a job. I work for a company in the fortune top 5 that is very stable. Yet this economy is hitting us also. They are going to cut my office way back from 500 people to 200 by the end of the year. They will offer me a job in Houston as they can always find a spot for a cisco network engineer. My boss and a lot of other are really scrambling. There are no jobs in the local market and less chances of them finding a place in another part of the company as they are cutting back everywhere. Just some food for thought. From: nrf Reply-To: nrf To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:37:51 -0400 Drew wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sean Knox wrote: I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my CCNP, I am content with that for now and and getting more experience (fortunately I am not some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing this awhile). Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA and I wish you luck. I made a similar decision myself within the last few weeks. I had planned on pursuing my CCIE-Security, but realize that I don't work enough with Cisco products on a daily basis, and certainly not with routing in a complex way, to feel that I would deserve the cert, even if I attained it. I'm going back to school for my MS in CS, starting classes in June. I think in the long run, an advanced degree is more of a benefit than an advanced vendor cert. But thats just me. Exactly. Especially later in your life. Fiddling with Cisco boxes might be cool now, but do you still want to be doing that when you're 50? Probably not, you probably want to be sitting in a director's chair ordering other young guys to set up the systems. It's hard to win promotion to that chair without an advanced education. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=41888t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Inline Wes Stevens wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I guess my point is that you will eventually hit a point in your career where you have to decide if you want to stay technical or go into management. For everyone it is different. For me it was a no brainer - I hated the paperwork and budgets ect. But another thing to keep in mind is like you said where do you want to be when your are 50. For me middle management is the pits. Yet you have made an assumption that being stuck in middle-management is all the MBA is good for. I would argue that nobody who goes for the MBA really wants to be stuck in middle-management, their real ambition is to be CxO, and middle-management is just a step in their (hopefully) advancing career. And then there is a giant slice of MBA'ers, dare I say a majority of the students in the big-name MBA schools, who have no desire to be climbing the standard corporate ladder, and therefore will never get stuck in traditional middle-management. Rather, they are getting their MBA because they wanna be Wall Street banker/financier/wheeler-dealers or high-priced management/strategic consultants - industries where the MBA is effectively mandatory. A CCIE and strong networking experience might make for a good career, but won't make you a multi-millionare, but working for a Manhattan investment bank could make you a lot of money very quickly (but a lot of high-stress work too). I have seen people come to work here and get their MBA degree from U of M at night paid for by the company. Did it hurt their careers? No for sure not. But did they ever make it out of middle management - no. Maybe other companies are different but to make it here you have to have to pedigree comming out of school i.e. stick it out for an MBA and it better be from a top tier (and no U of M is not on the list) school. If not you will never see an upper management position. Careful. I assume you talking about UMiami (killer football team, by the way). However, when a lot of people think of U of M in conjunction with MBA programs, they probably think you mean the University of Michigan, which is generally considered to be one of the premier business schools in the country (ranked #10 in the latest US News rankings). From: Kaminski, Shawn G Reply-To: Kaminski, Shawn G To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 17:39:39 -0400 Many of you may have seen this, but it looks like this guy has got it all!! :-) He has a little bit to say about graduate school and the CCIE. Basically, interesting reading. Click here (watch for word wrap) http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/625/ccie/ccie_program/spotlight.html Shawn K. -Original Message- From: nrf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 4:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] I understand. But on the other hand, if you have ambitions to be the CxO, a CCIE isn't going to cut it. Like you said, it's a case of what you want out of life. However, what I will definitely say is this. If you work for a company that is willing to finance your degree at night school, you're a fool not to take it. If you're not the one paying for it, you should get as many degrees as you can, because you never know what's going to happen in the future. Wes Stevens wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... A lot of it is what you want out of life. I will be 50 in 5 years and am perfectly happy playing with cisco's. I make more money then my boss with the mba does and have more job security. What happens if you get laid off at 45 or 50 with a middle to upper management job? If you are not way up there in the corner office area you are going to have a hard time finding a job. I work for a company in the fortune top 5 that is very stable. Yet this economy is hitting us also. They are going to cut my office way back from 500 people to 200 by the end of the year. They will offer me a job in Houston as they can always find a spot for a cisco network engineer. My boss and a lot of other are really scrambling. There are no jobs in the local market and less chances of them finding a place in another part of the company as they are cutting back everywhere. Just some food for thought. From: nrf Reply-To: nrf To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:37:51 -0400 Drew wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sean Knox wrote: I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my CCNP, I am content with that for now and and getting more experience (fortunately I am not some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing this awhile). Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA a
Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
Wes Stevens wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Maybe other companies are different but to make it here you have to have to pedigree comming out of school i.e. stick it out for an MBA and it better be from a top tier (and no U of M is not on the list) school. If not you will never see an upper management position. You must be right depends on the company. I don't know where you work, but there are plenty of medium to medium-large companies where an MBA and 10 years experience in the tech field is a prime resume for CIO or Director or IS, etc.. And although I'm sure there are plenty of companies where they are looking for the a pedigree from a top tier school, I also think that if one can get into a CIO position for one of these medium to medium-large companies for a few years then you'd have a good shot at even those companies that are more selective. Just my 2 cents. Mike W. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=41917t=41809 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809]
This has been a great thread. Having endured Cisco certifications and an MBA program, I might suggest that you opt for both paths over time and prioritize on what is of value now. I completed neither, but the value of both was an alteration of perspective. My focus has always been on the humanistic side of networking (I am interested in BGP as-path manipulations, but I'm willing to let my techie friends figure it out). It works because I like listening to the balding white guy in the corner office, knowing that he is a _, and helping him see the technical light without using a TLA. Bouncing between the worlds has been a lot of fun for me, and few in the industry enjoy doing it (my perspective), which makes for a neat niche. I will never be a 'manager only', nor will I surpass my BGP guru on pure tech, but the team is strong and we complement each other. You may wish to jump between paths since you clearly appear to have an interest in both arenas. Then again, you may find that one clearly is a better fit for your needs. Good luck. --- Wes Stevens wrote: I guess my point is that you will eventually hit a point in your career where you have to decide if you want to stay technical or go into management. For everyone it is different. For me it was a no brainer - I hated the paperwork and budgets ect. But another thing to keep in mind is like you said where do you want to be when your are 50. For me middle management is the pits. I have seen people come to work here and get their MBA degree from U of M at night paid for by the company. Did it hurt their careers? No for sure not. But did they ever make it out of middle management - no. Maybe other companies are different but to make it here you have to have to pedigree comming out of school i.e. stick it out for an MBA and it better be from a top tier (and no U of M is not on the list) school. If not you will never see an upper management position. From: Kaminski, Shawn G Reply-To: Kaminski, Shawn G To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 17:39:39 -0400 Many of you may have seen this, but it looks like this guy has got it all!! :-) He has a little bit to say about graduate school and the CCIE. Basically, interesting reading. Click here (watch for word wrap) http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/625/ccie/ccie_program/spotlight.html Shawn K. -Original Message- From: nrf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 4:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] I understand. But on the other hand, if you have ambitions to be the CxO, a CCIE isn't going to cut it. Like you said, it's a case of what you want out of life. However, what I will definitely say is this. If you work for a company that is willing to finance your degree at night school, you're a fool not to take it. If you're not the one paying for it, you should get as many degrees as you can, because you never know what's going to happen in the future. Wes Stevens wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... A lot of it is what you want out of life. I will be 50 in 5 years and am perfectly happy playing with cisco's. I make more money then my boss with the mba does and have more job security. What happens if you get laid off at 45 or 50 with a middle to upper management job? If you are not way up there in the corner office area you are going to have a hard time finding a job. I work for a company in the fortune top 5 that is very stable. Yet this economy is hitting us also. They are going to cut my office way back from 500 people to 200 by the end of the year. They will offer me a job in Houston as they can always find a spot for a cisco network engineer. My boss and a lot of other are really scrambling. There are no jobs in the local market and less chances of them finding a place in another part of the company as they are cutting back everywhere. Just some food for thought. From: nrf Reply-To: nrf To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MBA or CCIE [7:41809] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:37:51 -0400 Drew wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Sean Knox wrote: I was actually heading towards my CCIE, but after getting my CCNP, I am content with that for now and and getting more experience (fortunately I am not some new wide-eyed kid in the field and have been doing this awhile). Congrats on your decision to pursue your MBA and I wish you luck. I made a similar decision myself within the last few weeks. I had planned on pursuing my CCIE-Security, but realize that I don't work enough with Cisco products on a daily basis, and certainly not with routing in a complex way, to fe
