Re: [CTRL] Fw: Pledge of Allegiance. A Call to Action

[Don S. Brown]

-Caveat Lector-
Hello,
With all due respect to the sender, fuck the pledge of allegiance.
A true gesture of respect for the victims and a declaration of our freedoms would be signatures demanding a repeal of the Patriot Act, an open investigation into who was responsible for their deaths, and the end of 1st amendment zones.
Cardboard patriotism is so trite.
"This is one way we can show support for our country and its freedoms."
Lets send a message to GW Bush, Ariel Sharon and the neocons taking over our country.
db




In a message dated 9/6/02 4:20:40 PM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


 Please share this email with your friends and Family!!



 I found this site and felt compelled to share it with my friends.

 Their goal is to get 4,000,000 Americans to digitally sign the Pledge of
Allegiance online, one thousand for every man, woman and child killed by
terrorists on September 11, 2001. Pending approval, these online signatures
will then be displayed at Ground Zero in New York on the one-year
anniversary of 9-11 this year. 
 By standing united, we are not only honoring the
victims but also sending a strong message to the likes of Osama Bin Laden,
Saddam Hussein and Yassar Arafat.

 I've pledged my allegiance and I encourage you to do the same. I
personally feel that this is one small action we can take to help strengthen
our collective resolve. If you feel the same, please share this with
everyone you know.

 This link will take you to the site. http://www.patriotdrive.org Or
http://www.SignThePledgeOfAllegiance.org




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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
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major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Road Rage Incident

[Don S. Brown]

-Caveat Lector-
Hello,
I am reminded of Jerzy Kozynski. He carried a camera around and would use it in instances like this. Or so he writes.
It is pretty sobering to have someone take evidentiary pictures of ones bad behavior or illegal acts.
I personally quit carrying a fire arm in my vehicle as the urge to use it was growing.
I feel that if it were not for driving, I would never lose my temper.
It is amazing to me that people do not realize that they are in a lethal weapon when they play road antics.
I am reminded also of Hannibal Lector choosing to dine on the range rude.
There are ample herds of them.
People. The other white meat.
A word of advice from Apocalypse Now with a twist. Never get out of the car.
The heat of the moment vs. appearing on Court TV. Or being the star attraction at a funeral.
db


In a message dated 7/1/02 4:58:03 AM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Living in California I have observed many incidents of road rage. Today was
one of the worst. A couple of drunk men returning from Stinson Beach were
following me, one of them standing up with his head out of the sunroof
yelling at drivers and jestering for them to pull over. The road was a
winding mountain road with a double yellow no passing lane the entire
distance.

I was going the speed limit so saw no reason to pull over so the drunk
speeders could kill someone, and besides there were several cars in front of
me so what would it accomplish?

Eventually we came to a crossroads and the other cars in front turned the
other way. The drunks behind me illegally pulled in front of me at the stop
sigh by crossing the double yellow line, not stoping and swerving around me
in the opposite lane.

After a while they slowed down to about 10 MPH, then came to a complete stop,
blocking the lane. If I tried to go around them they would have sped up. So
here we are sitting on a lonely country road and they they started throwing
things at my car. I told them to stop, and they started to get out (!) This
was becoming very strange very fast. I was so shocked and concerned that I
did not even see or try to record their license number. Eventually after a
standoff of about 2 minutes, someone else came by and started to pass. The
care in front sped off at a high speed.

From now on, I will carry a disposable flash camera in my glove compartment
to use to gather evidence on these asshole drivers, and will now *always*
carry pepper spray. If any drunk treatens me I will not hesitate to use it.

I am mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore!!!

(If I was in Texas I would get a permit to carry a gun like my parents do.
But then I might be tempted to use it, so pepper spray is probably a good
idea for California, however you never now if the other person has a gun.)

Steve



A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Road Rage Incident

[Don S. Brown]

-Caveat Lector-
Hi Neuro,
Yeah, I'll go with that. I went through a phase where I read his stuff. I loved Being There. 
I do not know if his reported history (orphan during WW2, all alone, losing speech till he was an adult etc.) is true, but I did enjoy some of his stuff.
db



n a message dated 7/1/02 1:44:31 PM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Apropos nothing – Kozynski is the first person I can recall thinking (at about age 6) “what an arrogant asshole!” about



A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
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screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Re: [CTRL] Road Rage Incident

[Don S. Brown]

-Caveat Lector-
Hi,
As an interesting aside, he was supposed to be at Sharon Tate's house the night that she was murdered. I can't remember if his plane was delayed or what the circumstances were that caused him to not be there were.
Once again, this is from him and I do not know the truth of it.

db



n a message dated 7/1/02 2:06:27 PM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Caveat Lector- Being there and painted bird were both good books. He was a good friend of a friend of my mothers. He came to our house with her once or twice when I was a kid. Truly – it was the moment I understood what the word “asshole” meant.
But that does not subtract from his writing. (even though “Being There” is the rare case where the movie is better than the book)



A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Re: [CTRL] Native America Wisdom?

[Don S. Brown]

Hello,
I think a much more real sense of wisdom is the unflinching belief in a son of God that was executed and then resurrected days later only to become, well something, after that.
Of course getting the sun to stand still and several foot thick walls to come tumbling down with the blowing of trumpets is certainly a much more civilized belief. Then again a good old Red Sea parting or the casual walk on water befits the cerebral capacities of a civilized culture and people much better than falling beavers from the sky for crying out loud.
Did I mention a virgin giving birth?
db



In a message dated 5/13/02 1:17:54 PM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Much homage is paid to Native Americans and their wisdom. Is the wisdom
deserving of such reverence?

I give you this:

In the beginning, the Cherokee believed that the earth was covered with water
and that beavers came from the sky to drag the mud from the oceans bottom and
bring it to the top. The beavers then attached it to the sky and created the
land. The "great buzzard" now flew to the ground where he flapped his wings
while the valleys and mountains were formed. It was on one of these flights
that the "great buzzard" created the land on which the Cherokees lived.

???

Re: [CTRL] Iron Hillary

[Don S. Brown]

I think the point to keep in mind is the climate of rank amateurism that prevailed
during Bill Jeff's time as President.  The problem he ran into was having more
questions thrown at him then he did answers. The less able a person is to deflect
criticism and press on with the program, the less professional the job is.  How many
people have flings on the side that are never discovered?  Monica?  This is the
DUMBEST thing or person he could've done.  We'll leave her at being too damned
young to know how to play the game.  And there are those who don't get the
message, despite the fact that she and Monica have had almost congruent lives.




Hello Euphorian,
I would not say that this is the point to keep in mind. The point to keep in mind is the abuse of the system that the neoconservatives wrecked on us all. I would also say that the point is that right wing propaganda was turned up full force on Clinton and used specious, malicious rummers and innuendo to build a case against him.
I was responding to a post that you provided from CNSNews which is a regular source for Bill O'Reilly and has no credibility as an unbiased news source.
I do not know how you make the leap in logic that because someone is getting more questions than they can (or will) answer is proof of anything except maybe they are busy.
When you talk about the climate of rank amateurism surrounding his time in office, that is as opposed to the criminal cartel of Reagan and GHW Bush? Or perhaps this farce of an administration?
Clinton is one of the best and smoothest politicians to ever hold office. I am an independent, but my observation of him is that he was dealt plenty of lemons and made plenty of lemonade out of the GOP and their efforts to slam him day in and day out.

And no the Dumbest thing a President could do would be trade arms for hostages and dope for guns and get busted for it. And about 32 people in his administration.
As to be too young to know how to play the game, I guess it was pure young, dumb and full of cum boy luck that won him two presidential elections?

Remember, the FBI worked for Freeh who worked for Reno who worked for Bill Jeff
who got Reno to appoint Kenny Babyface Starr as the special prosecutor.  The
reason BJ didn't get the axe from the government was because he really didn't do
anything illegal, wrong to some maybe but not illegal.  He just was having more fun
than they would allow themselves to admit possible

I believe that you may want to see how the selection process for Ken Starr occurred. As to the FBI working for him, I doubt very seriously he would have preferred for all those assets to be putting him under a microscope for 10 years. 
Now, I hold Clinton responsible for many things that have nothing to do with sex. Covering up TWA comes to mind and Waco and OKC as well. His numerous executive orders that took away property rights and civil liberties should be another issue. Instead the media and the right wing backed investigations gave up Big Billy's Willy for year after year. They never got the point that outside of their cabal, nobody cared. 

Don't forget that BJ paid off Paula.  And to amplify your point: she got dumped after
all was said and done.  And why did she feel offended in the first place?  Because
she never got anything out of it in the beginning, to begin with?  But she'd eventually
get a nose job (something else to blow) and that makes everything better.  New
nose, no job, no reputation, no friends, doing more in public for millions of adoring
fans what she wouldn't do for for one in private.  And wasn't she the one that claimed
they had besmirched her?

Poor Paula.  Poor pathetic prude prominently proboscissed political pawn picked
Penthouse Pet.  The smart thing for BJ to have done was taken her aside (with a
mutually agreed upon chaperon) and settled.  He could have finessed an apology for
any missed understanding that might have arisen.  Even had her report it.  Explained
to her what role she was playing and told her to keep an eye out for certain trends
and road signs just to justify his (then) position that she was indeed just a piece.  A
piece of the game.

Well, the Paula Jones issue was fabricated pure and simple. She was a tool and her claims were totally false and have been proven so. Gold digging bimbo's was a plague courtesy of guys like Richard Mellon Scaife paying anybody to come forward with anything just to keep the venom flowing. She was never a piece of anything in the game accept as a pawn that never moved on her own. 
Do you know any of the facts of the Paula Jones case? 

Then, he could have taken the missionary position (the "high ground") and quoted or
paraphrased the words of the martyr, something to the effect that whoever was
without sin should cast the first ballot for impeachment.  But R-kansas is not the
District of Corruption.  And they, the right-wing conspirators, made Poor Paula into a
modern day Magdalena whose honour could only be saved by the man 

Re: [CTRL] Vicious Homo attacks on Christian [uk]

[Don S. Brown]

In a message dated 5/6/02 12:26:31 AM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


At 06:59 PM 05/05/2002 -0400, you wrote:

Hi,
Does this mean that I will not be invited to one of those cool, esoteric and mystical initiation rites?
db


Bingo!...Very perceptive, pal ! Your choices have profiled you.

jao 



Howdy Jao,
Thanks, I want to be your pal. I consider it an honor.
My choices have profiled me and now, Bingo, I do not get invited into super, duper secret societies chock full o' esoteric rituals.
I feel as life is really not worth going on with.
You see, Jao. May I call you Jao? 
Good. Now then Jao, when I was responding to a post with the subject header:
Vicious Homo attacks on Christian [uk]
I was probably just making an assumption (gasp, we know better than to do that) that the poster by the wording of his subject, had shown himself to be a Vicious Homophobe and a religious kookie wookie.
In fact, All I said was that perhaps some of those ne'er do well Christians would be given pause to think about keeping their mythical God given views on life and living to their proper place. I think this is sound advice.
I also stated that I preferred the Japanese medieval way of dealing with the Christians. Actually they had several levels of "dealing with them" from assimilating and adopting their faith on one end of the spectrum and crucifying large masses of them at a time, although they did have a penchant for boiling people alive, on the other end of the spectrum.
I did not specify which method of dealing with them that I preferred. I tend to stay away from extremes of spectrums as a matter of habit. 
But, alas. Now I have profiled myself.
For shame. And I had such promise.
db

Re: [CTRL] Vicious Homo attacks on Christian [uk]

[Don S. Brown]

Howdy,
Lets here it for the Gay Masonic Mafia. Maybe this will persuade the ne'er do good Christians to stay at home or in their houses of worship with their helpful little messages.
I have always thought that the medieval Japanese way was best in dealing with them.
db



In a message dated 5/5/02 4:31:16 PM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


the elderly gentleman was speaking his biblical beliefs, but never stood a
chance against the gay masonic mafia.

Re: [CTRL] Industrial waste used as fertilizer

[Don S. Brown]

Hello,
If you go to:
http://prwatch.org/
You will see that they wrote a book (actually several) and one is titled Toxic Sludge is Good For You.
They did it as an example of corporate PR. However, a representative of the industry called them and thanked them for the good job getting the word out. Obviously, they did not read the book.
db


Caveat Lector-

(Linked from Unknown News - http://www.unknownnews.net/)

http://www.newsreview.com/issues/chico/2002-05-02/cover.asp

Fields of poison

Patty Martin uncovered a horrible truth about fertilizer in her hometown of
Quincy, Wash. Her discovery raises the question: What are Californians
spreading on their crops, lawns and gardens?

By Tom Gascoyne

excerpt

When Martin and the farmers first uncovered the practice--the selling of
industrial waste as fertilizer rather than paying to ship it and bury it in
hazardous-waste dumps--it was illegal. Since no one monitored the ingredients
in fertilizer, however, industries involved in chrome plating, iron smelting,
mining, steel works, electronic components, petroleum refining and even
coal-fired power plants were attracted by the lure of improving the bottom
line and opted for the cheaper manner of disposal.

As long as the hazardous waste included one of the three macronutrients used
by plants, nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium, or any of 13 micronutrients,
including zinc, copper and iron, the waste qualified as fertilizer, no matter
what other chemicals were in the mix.

According to Fateful Harvest, the practice was begun as early as 1954 by a
man named Dick Camp Sr., who ran a galvanizing shop in Tacoma. The process
produced a byproduct containing zinc that had no practical purpose for Camp.
He stored the stuff in barrels behind his shop. But the day he learned that
zinc sulfate was used as fertilizer for apple trees, a light bulb went on
above his head, and a new industry was born.

Re: [CTRL] Vicious Homo attacks on Christian [uk]

[Don S. Brown]

Howdy,
Well I guess I could be a bigoted queer. I don't know if I have ever seen many of those. 
Definitely I am anti-religious.
You seem to know from bigotry, so I guess I must defer to your assessment
db


n a message dated 5/5/02 9:07:22 PM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


What are you, an anti-religious bigot or a queer?

At 05:02 PM 5/5/02 , you wrote:

Howdy,
Lets here it for the Gay Masonic Mafia. Maybe this will persuade the ne'er do good Christians to stay at home or in their houses of worship with their helpful little messages.
I have always thought that the medieval Japanese way was best in dealing with them.
db

Re: [CTRL] Vicious Homo attacks on Christian [uk]

[Don S. Brown]

Hi,
Does this mean that I will not be invited to one of those cool, esoteric and mystical initiation rites?
db


In a message dated 5/5/02 9:21:19 PM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


At 05:10 PM 05/05/2002 -0400, you wrote:

What are you, an anti-religious bigot or a queer?

They are probably both. Masonry doesn't allow CSs or SPs in the fraternity.




At 05:02 PM 5/5/02 , you wrote:

Howdy,
Lets here it for the Gay Masonic Mafia. Maybe this will persuade the ne'er do good Christians to stay at home or in their houses of worship with their helpful little messages.
I have always thought that the medieval Japanese way was best in dealing with them.
db



In a message dated 5/5/02 4:31:16 PM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



the elderly gentleman was speaking his biblical beliefs, but never stood a
chance against the gay masonic mafia. 

Re: [CTRL] Vicious Homo attacks on Christian [uk]

[Don S. Brown]

Howdy,
Now, I have seen an asshole. They tend to be pink and shriveled. That would not be me.
db

In a message dated 5/5/02 9:27:35 PM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Nope, he's just an asshole



What are you, an anti-religious bigot or a queer?

At 05:02 PM 5/5/02 , you wrote:

Howdy,
Lets here it for the Gay Masonic Mafia. Maybe this will persuade the ne'er do good Christians to stay at home or in their houses of worship with their helpful little messages.
I have always thought that the medieval Japanese way was best in dealing with them.
db

Re: [CTRL] The Real Secret

[Don S. Brown]

Hola,
Ah, nothing like a good piece of religious, psychobabble to entertain oneself with on a rainy Saturday. Prophecy? I think not.
db





}}Begin
THE LAST POPE
The Decline and Fall of the Church of Rome
The Prophecies of St Malachy for the New Millennium

PUBLISHER: Element Books

HARDBACK EDITION - 336 pages
ISBN 1 86204 202 0

TRADE PAPERBACK EDITION
Release Date: Fall 1999

Hardback edition released in 1998. Over 25,000 copies in print in 7 languages.

Synopsis
In 1139 St Malachy set out from Ireland on a harrowing pilgrimage to Rome. On
sighting the Eternal City he fell to the ground and began murmuring cryptic Latin
phrases, each signifying the future destiny of the Popes.

For four hundred years the manuscript was locked in the labyrinth of the Vatican. On
its rediscovery in 1595 it was rejected by the Church authorities as fraudulent but the
content of the prophecies remains remarkably and chillingly accurate: to this day 90
percent have come true.

In examining the context of St. Malachy’s life, his pilgrimages and his miracles John
Hogue presents a fascinating account of the fates of the Popes and eight hundred
years of Catholic prophecy; including those of contemporaries, St Hildegard von
Bingen, Joachim de Fiore and the 16th-century Catholic seer, Nostradamus, whose
vision of the papal succession closely resembles that of St Malachy.

In this first complete study of the prophecies in over a hundred years, Hogue brings
his expertise to new revelations regarding the authenticity of the Latin mottoes. As
the Roman Catholic Church continues to witness an eclipse in papal power this
masterly work uncovers the truth about St Malachy’s prophecies and reveals their
significance as an account of the papal progression which Vatican policy makers
have found too threatening to acknowledge.

During the last persecution of the Holy Roman Church, there shall sit Peter of Rome,
who shall feed the sheep amidst many great tribulations, and when these have
passed, the City of the Seven Hills shall be utterly destroyed, and the awful Judge will
judge the people

St. Malachy prophesied an end to the Roman Catholic Church and predicted the
fates of the Popes until Judgment Day. After John Paul II dies only two Popes remain
on the Doomsday List…will this forbidding prophetic coda of a Catholic Apocalypse
Be fulfilled?

ENDORSEMENTS

“Once again, the grand master of prophecy and super-biographer of Nostradamus
has written a major book dealing with our future and our past. This is a scholarly
work that reads like hot fiction…it will excite all those who view the Church of Rome
dispassionately, warts and all.”

Prof. Hans Holzer, author of Window to the Past and Prophecies: Visions of the
World’s Fate.
.

Re: [CTRL] Why not be Anti, Semites?

[Don S. Brown]

In a message dated 4/24/02 5:26:48 AM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Well Hammurabi, if the history of Christianity and Judaism was as simple as
you make it out to be, it probably wouldn't have taken thousands of years for
it to be debunked by you and your peers. They say a good academic is one who
learns more and more and less and less. You appear to have taken on the task
of knowing all that was learned over such a long period of time and debunking
all of it. Well, my friend, more power to you. It's a big job and should
keep you out of trouble for the rest of your life.



Well, your logic is extremely flawed. It has taken thousands of years to "debunk" Christianity because of the abusive control that the Papal Throne exerted over their empire. Any efforts to question, from a scholarly point of view, the historicity of Jesus, the Gospels or any other aspects of the canonized texts were severely dealt with. Had it been an open subject, with the curious allowed access to documents (if they could read them at all because the church kept the masses illiterate and used the vulgate Latin in masses and such when Latin was a dead language) there would have been a much earlier "understanding" of early church history and the origins of the myth of Jesus as man.
I am curious, because you cite no references, studies or research why you would make such a long winded statement with no substance? How do you make the assumption that studying history will keep me out of trouble for the rest of my life? History is a volatile subject and I have obviously struck a cord with you from your condescending statements.

As far as self-confidence, anyone who has put a few years on begins to be
unsure about many things, including the extent of their own brilliance.

My comment about self confidence was said tongue in cheek in response to another knee jerk backbiter that has done no research such as yourself. I have paid a lot of dues and know that there are a lot more to pay. If you have anything to say that is relevant to the subject instead of your shallow emotional response to my posting then I would be glad to respond further.
db

Re: [CTRL] Why not be Anti, Semites?

[Don S. Brown]

In a message dated 4/22/02 1:25:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Hammurabi, you are so sure of yourself. Every statement is a major
pronouncement of "The Truth." You have come as a messiah to save us from our
lives based on ignorance of "The Truth" or at least that is how your writing
appears to me. All of the scholars of the past in the area of religion were
just ignorant, superstitious peasants compared to you and your peers. How
interesting.


Well, Hello.
I appreciate the compliment and your perception of my self confidence. I presume you have some point to make?
When you say that all of the scholars of the past in the area of religion were just ignorant, superstitious peasants compared to me and my peers you undermine whatever point that you have by descending into ridiculous simplification and obfuscation.
For the most part, in religious scholarship of the past, it was done with the forgone conclusion that the studies would verify the "Christian" view of things. Also, it was not a privilege to the non clerical, as most of the peasants as you called them were illiterate.
Sadly, many great minds were never unleashed on this subject due to oppression from the church.
Fortunately the domain of God is getting smaller and smaller. New knowledge and science keep pushing out the trite explanations of old. Disease is the product of sin. The Earth is flat. The stars and Planets revolve around the earth. Adam, Eve and Alasaurus all lived here together with all of the other happy creatures in a world of bliss and no violence. The sun was made to stand still and seas parted.
Ah, those were the days.
I am presuming by your tone that if I had stated that the Lord God the Son and The Holy Spirit are one and I know that because the bible told me so that I would be more rightly proclaiming true knowledge and insight?
I do not believe in Messiah's and have come to save no one. I have made serious attempts to expand the reasoning powers of some people and free some people from ignorance and superstition. Guilty there.

You said you would answer questions, so let me ask youof all of the areas
of knowledge in this wide world, past and present, that need debunking, what
made you feel the world needed your efforts in the area of the history of
religion?

Because of the piss ignorant actions of a lot of people affiliated with organized religion, mostly. Because 2600 years after the beginning of the Jewish Old Testament people are still blinded by absurd myths, superstitions and dogma that affect our lives today. Lobbying for prayer in school, teaching the quaint myth of Genesis as truth in school, legislating morality based on religious beliefs and generally a tremendous amount of rude, ignorant and simple minded folks that go door to door on quite Saturday mornings asking if one has been saved. I really do not like that last part. Oh, did I mention the absurd war in the middle east with rival religious factions killing each other in droves and the fundamentalist terrorist here in the USA that bomb abortion clinics and assassinate doctors, harass clients and staff and set bombs off at the Olympics in Atlanta where I live.

To those who might question the need for the exchange, exploring conspiracy
is not just exploring the communicated word, but understanding why something
has been communicated.

Umm, well are you just practicing with your keyboard or trying to say something?
The propagation of Christianity was a conspiracy to keep people ignorant, enrich the powerful elite that controlled the church, confiscated land, fortunes and spirits of those that disagreed. Of course, even Torquemada's mother loved him.
You see, I took the time in my spiritual quest to look outside of scriptures to find deeper, truer answers. I have an opinion based on research not blind faith.
Thank you for your comments, it is always a pleasure to converse with educated people that have a thesis.
db

Re: [CTRL] Why not be Anti, Semites?

[Don S. Brown]

Hello,
Well, this is an interesting question. When you ask which is the most serious I suppose that depends on ones standards.
Certainly the myth that Joseph and Mary were fleeing to avoid the killing of male Jewish babies by Herod is a myth. This was built upon the fact that Herod had married a Jew and in fact had her and eventually her offspring killed. This is a midrashing of the tale of Moses being secreted away as an infant to escape Pharaoh's killing of all male Jewish babies, another myth. It presents the same image/lessons with modern characters and places as the Old Testament.
What occurred was that the writers of the Gospels used people and places from a period of about 100 years after the supposed times of Jesus and used them to weave tales that had lessons to their given communities spiritual needs. Geography is mistaken, times and dates are wrong in general and of course the whole clothe of the passion was formulated from common themes and myths of that era and joined with the "Christian Beliefs" of the time. At this time these stories were not taken literally. It was over a period of another 100 plus years that the case for an historical Jesus was put together.
db

In a message dated 4/21/02 11:17:37 PM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Of all the alleged historical errors in the Gospels, which would you say
is the most serious?
POC

Re: [CTRL] Why not be Anti, Semites?

[Don S. Brown]

Hello,
No. It cannot be proven by Roman tax records. All documents that have been recovered from that time have no reference to Jesus. If you know of some then you are the only person in this area of study that has seen them.
I do not mean to be trite, those are just the facts.
The introduction of letters, correspondences and other writings concerning Jesus in an historical setting are all later forgeries put out by church fathers from about 150CE onwards. Preposterous letters from Jesus to Pontius Pilate and from neighboring Communities from and to Jesus. In fact the forgeries became so embarrassing to the church in later years they were removed from circulation. At one time the Catholic church had 32 spears of Longinus.




In a message dated 4/22/02 3:21:09 AM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


well, sorry to cut your post off like this, but i dunno about that. i'm no
theist, and i certainly wouldn't call myself a christian, but can it not be
proven that jesus was a real person that existed [through roman tax
records]? i'm not referring to the census given as an excuse for him being
born in bethlehem instead of nazareth; i'm quite certain that this
information is out there from some tax record when he was a young adult. the
fact that i can't seem to locate a source is not helping me. anybody know
what the hell i'm talking about?

of course, it could always be argued that they were forged.


As to the next part:

i look at jesus more as awella daniel boone type character, where
stories are created around the person due to awe and admiration. who knows,
if we ever go through a nuclear war then maybe when the people emerge
they'll stumble upon data [electronic or, maybe, from a half destroyed
library] describing george washington as a super human that can throw a rock
across potomac bay, and, thus, assume him to be myth. but, we all know him
to have existed.

Well, they will find documents and writings of his contemporaries that will show that he was known and did walk on earth. This is not the case for Jesus. There are no contemporary writings of or about him until the first Gospel written after 100Ce.

i *am* definately suspicious, and i take very little of what is in either
testament at face value..but i don't see how you can flat out declare
his existence to be a myth. i mean, how many sources are there *really* that
prove thati dunnoramses II existed? alexander the great? that the
pelopponesian war happened? maybe one or two or three at most. yet we take
this as historical fact, even though it's probably quite embellished. the
scriptures may not be a good source of real historical happenings, but
they're good enough to prove that the guy actually lived as far as i'm
concerned

inri

Well, I suppose that I would ask what is it that allows some one with no sources other than the bible to say he does exist? My friend, extraordinary claims need extraordinary proofs.
As to my opinion, I have studied this subject for many years and have an extensive library on this subject. I have utilized web sources of early church documents and historical writtings of contemporary historians Jewish, Roman, Greek and others.I have found no writtings of that era, and this is crucial, to support the gospel version.
As to the scriptures being all you need to establish proof that he existed, well that is why Zues and Thor were really here because the Greeks wrote of them. Horus was in fact a true life God because Egyptian writtings are abundant in reference to him.
That is not a very good argument in regard to logic. Belief is another thing. However, it is this baseless belief that causes people to blow themselves and others up from the middle east to abortion clinics in the name of events and people that never existed or happened.
db

Re: [CTRL] Why not be Anti, Semites?

[Don S. Brown]

Hello, 
Well, I appreciate the compliment. I have spent a lot of time and money in researching this field. I am however a part of no movement expect to try and eliviate ignorance and help people seperate from their superstitions whenever I can.
When we talk about this, "here is a big
academic religious movement bent on saying that nothing in Jewish or
Christian history can be accepted with certainty. " 
Please remember that the historical study of the bible is only a couple of hundred years old. It was punishable by death, torture, banishment and a host of other nasties to even question Christian (or Judaic) dogma. That is why the meme of Christianity is so heavy with us still. We are fortunate to live in a time when so many archeological data and historical documents have been found and translated. For instance the Nag Hamadi library with early Christian writings that share a lot of common threads, but no historical Jesus.
When we talk of a trend, I see it more as the natural evolutionary response from free thinking individuals to investigate and refute these age old myths. To be able to use logic and reason in attempting to piece together this Judeo/Christian history.
I refer again to the amount of significant data recovered over the past 100 years that leads to a more realistic accounting of these times rather than simply accepting the, "you must believe because it is written" rhetoric. Remember, that brain washing begins in the crib. Of course there are religious conversions, but most people are a product of their spiritual upbringing. What I mean is that if you are from the Punjab, you are probably going to be Hindu. If you are from Tel Aviv, Jewish and from Birmingham, Alabama a Baptist or some such denomination. Of course these are generalities, but the gist is that parents start that process of belief in their offspring.
I think that you presume to much in thinking that free thinking people are only exercising their options in regard to historical study in order to establish a new world order of secular zombie's or whatever.


n a message dated 4/22/02 3:55:31 AM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Hammurabi did a nice academic presentation of what some academics know about
that part of history. Those who read here should know that there is a big
academic religious movement bent on saying that nothing in Jewish or
Christian history can be accepted with certainty. No Jesus, no apostles, no
Abraham, no King David, no Exodus, no Moses, etc. There is no indication
that Hammurabi is part of that movement, but he may be influenced by it. Why
the trend? Well, if we are to move into one world religion, people must be
convinced that humans all have some sort of good sweet center, kind of like
a Fannie Mae chocolate, that has come out in every religious group to form
the core of their beliefs. If we could just discard all of the outside
shells, all of the sweet centers will come together to form a single candy
that everyone can nibble from.


As to:

That the core of Christianity should be belief in a person makes it
difficult.  I don't believe in Christianity, but I also don't think the
movement would have come together without a focal point.

This is a weak argument. I like the quote from one of the Coral Ridge Ministry bigwigs that said the grand canyon was not made by a Hopi Indian dragging a stick and something as large as Christianity was not built on a myth.
Well, he was wrong.
There have been many cults that were powerful and far reaching that were based on religious texts and nothing more. Take Greek mythology for instance. Take Paganism. Take basicaly any religion and you must use the same criteria on them. People believe. People have holy text's. Therefore there must be historical God Men/Women at the core of their beliefs.
In studying the history of Christianity, one must study it. Simple statement made here about Christianity must have had a focal point and that focal point was a living, breathing, tried, convicted, crucified and reborn Jesus is not an educated statement.
The history of Christianity is a metamorphasising one sprung from Jewish cults and was a product of the times and events that transpired in Judah during the period of bout 200BCE (maybe further) to the canonization of text's by Constantine in the 4th century. From the advent of Greek influence with the invasion of Alexander in 330CE (or there abouts) to the Orient to the partial destruction of Judah in 70Ce and then total destruction in 135Ce by the Romans and onwards to the gathering of miscellaneous letters from religious communities (pauls epistles) and the writing of the Gospels from 100CE onward. There was a period in time that Paganism almost won out and we would be worshipping Mithra right now. These texts were not heavenly ordained, they were the product of men and women responding to their beliefs and the political and theological events of their time.

And to this:

We should look carefully at the promotion 

Re: [CTRL] Why not be Anti, Semites?

[Don S. Brown]

Hi,
Well, I am not talking about Catholic history. I am talking about Christian history and like it or not after about 350CE Christian history became Catholic but before that it was Christian history. There were Christians over a hundred years before the supposed birth of Jesus. There were no Catholics.
If you are of a Christian faith then your root is Catholicism. That is the well spring of Protestant, Lutheran and other sects.
db



In a message dated 4/22/02 11:49:16 AM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


I dispute the word "christian" in this so-called
history, and request that the word "catholic" be used
instead.
--- "Don S. Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hello,
 Well, I appreciate the compliment. I have spent a
 lot of time and money in
 researching this field. I am however a part of no
 movement expect to try and
 eliviate ignorance and help people seperate from
 their superstitions whenever
 I can.
 When we talk about this, "here is a big
 academic religious movement bent on saying that
 nothing in Jewish or
 Christian history can be accepted with certainty. "

 Please remember that the historical study of the
 bible is only a couple of
 hundred years old. It was punishable by death,
 torture, banishment and a
 host of other nasties to even question Christian (or
 Judaic) dogma. That is
 why the meme of Christianity is so heavy with us
 still. We are fortunate to
 live in a time when so many archeological data and
 historical documents have
 been found and translated. For instance the Nag
 Hamadi library with early
 Christian writings that share a lot of common
 threads, but no historical
 Jesus.

Re: [CTRL] Why not be Anti, Semites?

[Don S. Brown]

Hello,
Sorry for chiming in here, but a couple of points. One, this is a very nice sentiment that Jesus was a groovy, hip, make love not war kind of guy that became misrepresented. I like that. However, point 2 is that he is and has always been a myth.
I am reacting to all of the pontificating as to what Jesus was, said, did and how and why he was crucified.
It never happened. I read in a post that the reference to paying taxes to the Romans were added after the original gospels. The original gospels were not begun till the 2nd century and they were written as teaching tools for certain communities of Jews that presented lessons from the torah that were not threatening to the Romans.
On a conspiracy list I am truly surprised by the amount of post's that I read from the point of view that any of this Judeo/Christian history is representative of real people and events.
Also a little understanding of Roman history and legal procedures is in order. The events of the trial and crucifixion of Jesus is nothing more than a fabrication of events that allowed "Jesus" to achieve this resurrected status. 
The local establishment would not have heard a case at night from a mob of Jews, whom the Romans despised, and allowed the unruly proceedings to go forward with chants and accusations by the Jews in the courtroom. That would not happen. He would have cooled his heels in the local gray bar until the matter could be heard in an orderly fashion. Also, the claiming of being the messiah was quite in vogue so this claim of being the "king of the Jews" would not have been too impressive from the point of view of the local magistrate.
Now, when we look to validation of Jesus's existence as a physical person, one will find a complete lack of contemporary texts or documents that concur, support or even misrepresent Jesus and his words and deeds from this time period.
I will gladly try to field challenges to this claim. Please do not start with the two entries in the Works Of Josephus as they are blatant interpolations. And in fact, Josephus is one of the strongest testaments to the lack of a historical Jesus is his complete and utter ignorance of the man and his deeds. This is why the two interjected paragraphs are so obviously added later.
The only validation comes from the bible itself.
Paul wrote the letters of Romans, Corinthians, Galations and Ephesians starting from around 50CE and wrote till about 90CE. Acts was written long, long after and is presented before the epistles to obfuscate by embellishing on Paul with information that he does not present in his epistles. Paul seems totally unconcerned with Jesus and his life and ministry. He never teaches using Jesus on earth examples of his lessons. No, "Well Corinthians, when I went to the mount where he was crucified" or, "Well, as Jesus preached in the sermon on the mount..." He seems to be either ignorant of his life, family, ministry miracles and gospels, or somehow while trying to bring these groups of peoples into the folds of Christianity, he just doesn't think it is relevant.
This is the argument from silence and it is a powerful one. A man who was sought out by Kings to confer with and did miracles on a daily basis, no one seems to know about him. None of the contemporary historians, miscellaneous documents, deeds, court records, Roman protectorate correspondence, nada.
The transformation of a spiritual Jesus to an historic man took place over time and was the joining of many different perceptions of Christianity. The new testament did not drop out of the sky. It was the result of a process that occurred over time and with much debate and deceit. There was forgery of texts, documents and letters to support the historical Jesus legend in an attempt to be superior to Paganism by having a real live man turned God that was on earth instead of some wimpy Dionysus. 
The church fathers in the 3rd century took myth and midrash, a few letters and "gospels" and brought them together, under Constantine, and formed what we know as Christianity.
db




...they would if they could convince them that the same individual was
also somehow a threat to the state, which is exactly what the sanhedrin did
simply because he happened to refer to himself as the "king of the jews"
from time to time.

now, it's true that the popular view of the messiah at the time was that he
was going to be a warrior king, and it's true that the romans didn't like
large groups of people crowding around "revolutionaries"; butjesus was
neither a potential warrior king nor a revolutionary. he was just a crazy
hippie pushing brotherly love and not a real threat to rome at all. i've
never seen any evidence stating that the romans really even took jesus
seriously; pilate certainly had nothing against him. it wasn't for years
after that all of a sudden christianity emerged as a problem for the romans
after all.

*shrug*.

Re: [CTRL] Acting Like an Actor

[Don S. Brown]

Of course he is not obligated to uphold that pledge as Bush was not elected. He was selected. A big difference.
db


}}}Begin
Republicans Give Alec Baldwin One-way Greyhound ticket to Montreal
Sun Apr 14 2002 10:34:24 ET

The Republican Party of Florida had a gift for actor Alec Baldwin, who was the
featured speaker Saturday night at the Florida Democratic Party's state conference
at Walt Disney World: A one-way Greyhound ticket to Montreal!

The reason, said Florida GOP chairman Al Cardenas, was because Baldwin
reportedly promised to leave the country if President Bush was elected president

Re: [CTRL] Ollie's Friend Due for a Comeback

[Don S. Brown]

I can only hope that Mr. Nidal is successful in his efforts against Ollie. A class A piece of shit that sold his country out and paved the way for massive drug abuse and armed inner city gangs.
db


This is the guy that caused Ollie the North One to install his security system. 

Abu Nidal is alive and well in one of Saddam Hussein's magnificent villas on the
outskirts of Baghdad - according to intelligence reports received recently by the CIA,
Mossad and French intelligence.

Re: [CTRL] Immigration: Cause of the Clash of Civilizations

[Don S. Brown]

Hi,
Well the following is true, however I do not think that the original peoples that migrated to the Americas had to kill, lie, steal and shove their religion down the throats of anyone.
The Spanish Government of old Mexico was repressive and cruel and I do not think many Aztecs would laud the arrival of Hernan Cortez and his priests and conquistadors.
Hasta,
db


Hell - even the indigenous north Americans, and south Americans, immigrated
here from Asia and the south pacific. It was just a really really long time
ago.

Re: [CTRL] Jesus in Kashmir

[Don S. Brown]

Hi,
Well, I guess Easter is canceled, they found the body...
db


http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/120302/dlnat14.asp


US researcher hoping to discover body of Jesus in Kashmir tomb
Izhar Wani (AFP)
Srinagar, March 10



An American researcher who believes she has found the final resting place of Jesus
Christ is campaigning to exhume a body at a Muslim shrine in Kashmir for scientific
tests.

Suzanne Marie Olsson, a New York-based researcher is currently in Srinagar,
studying the Muslim shrine of Rozabal.

While Muslims say Rozabal houses the tomb of Yuza Asaf, a Muslim saint, many
researchers believe it contains the body of Jesus Christ.

To put an end to speculation Olsson has suggested exhuming the remains at
Rozabal for DNA testing and carbon dating.

"This will trace him (the saint) to his origin ... and resolve the raging controversy over
the identity of the place forever," she told the Sunday edition of Kashmir's leading
daily, the Greater Kashmir.

Olsson has already dug up a shrine at the Murree hill station in Pakistan under the
supervision of archaeologists Ahmad Hassan Dani and Saida Rahman.

Muree is believed to be the resting place of Jesus' mother, Mary (Marium).

"The exhumed remains have been sent for the DNA testing and the report is
awaited," she told the newspaper.

"Now Rozabal holds the key. If the remains there are sent for testing and then tallied
with the results of the Murree project, it will either establish the link between the two
shrines as being of similar origin and thus authenticate the Marium-Jesus theory or
prove it wrong for good."

However, her project has run into trouble with the managers of the Rozabal shrine,
who are strongly opposed to its "desecration".

"We will never allow it," said Mohammed Amin, one of the managers.

But Olsson, stressing the "purely scientific nature of her work" and her identity as a
"seeker of truth", is pleading to be allowed to "verify the origin and identity of the
saint" to put to rest wild speculation.

She has even written to Kashmir Chief Minister Farooq Abdullah for help.

Olsson also believes Moses is buried in Bandipore in north Kashmir, the Islamic
prophet Haroun at Harwan, on the outskirts of Srinagar, and Solomon at Takht-i-
Suliaman in Srinagar.

"You have more Christian holy sites than even Egypt or Israel," she said in her
appeal to the chief minister.

Olsson says she wants to unravel the truth about the shrines so that the scenic
Himalayan region of Kashmir, ravaged by a decade-long Muslim insurgency that has
claimed 35,000 lives, can become a pilgrimage centre for Christians and
Muslims.~~~

Re: [CTRL] Biblical Tall Tales

[Don S. Brown]

Hi,
A very good post.
And to address the Christian aspect here is a great site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/PaganChrists_introduction.html
Thanks,
db

Re: [CTRL] Joel was Son of Ladan

[Don S. Brown]

Saba Wrote:

So I am out of letters 5 is limit but did not want you to think I was
ignoring your letter which was very interesting to say the least.

Point I tried to make, my ancestors on mother's side and she knew names
of each and every one and ocusins, etc., were mostly (the men) Greek and
Latin Scholars.

This old bible I have, hand sewn-sil, leather, late 1800 period - one of
her relatives was one of the revisers of this particular King James
Bible, Oxford University Press, and was or delegates to the Clarendon
Press - a special edition received by each delegate.   Had not seen this
bible since I was a little girl for it was put away with family tree.

The bible that year was revised and translated from the ORIGINAL GREEK -
the New Testament therefore, they would use Alpha and Omega, and not
Aleph and I do not know what O is in Hebrew or whatever.

At beginning on the New Testament, it tates siply  The New Testament of
our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ - Translated out of the original Gree,
and with the former translations diligently compared and revised by His
Majesty's Special CommandAppointed to be read in Churches and the
Crest and then Oxford: Printed at university press - cum privilegio.
This was a special edition given to the revisors.

So translated from original Greek and compared diligently  must have
been a bunch of smart masons.

Now this bible the binding comes loose - but inside written at east 50
years ago or prior to 1958 when my mother died who was into something -
in Song of Solomon wittent at side of page are words "Key
Experiment"..and she circled the passage "he feeds among the lilies"
and way in New Testament, "there were shepards keeping watch over their
flocks by night"...means something.   

And this bible has EVERYTHING you would want to know, the names of all
trees, herbs, watches, every name and meaning and pages and pages maps,
locations ..

Might add in this bible in Joel 3 is it, the word Palestine is still
there but this country has virtually been blotted out of the revised
edition.

So that explains the Greek I believe; further, my famiy on mother's side
lots of old southern families -  mother state Maryland, and Carrolls of
Carrollton were Catholic - but one Charles, signed Declaration of
IndependenceOld Line stuff and most were gentlemen farmers lawyers
combined.

So obviously inasmuch as the bible was translated from the original
GREEK it would use Alpha and Omega?   The beginning and the end.and
St Paul as I recall, when in Greek did as Greeks and climbed high hill
Mars Hill - place of Unknown God.a friend of mine was raising funds
to put a cross on Mars Hill but was having problem - at time this
Hollywood (former) movie star Merina Mecuriio, something like that - was
in charge - but both are dead now who worked on the project.

Some did not want this as would take away from tourist attraction of
Parthenon - which is as crow flies a few miles from site.

So - who was Jesus - these were real people alright - sons of Kings and
Queens..always though Jesus was son of King Philip for it was he,
who recognized him.   In ancient days kings sent their sons away to
school, you know, just as they do today - to escape the wrath of a
vendeta by a Herod.

too bad the Kennedy family did not protect this famous line from the
Zionists who think they are "the chosen" when in fact they are the
gypsies no doubt - who have laid so many claims to landmarks their style
is all too familiar.

Thanks again.   Your response was very interesting.

but what the hell do you mean "get over it " for I trace my line right
back to the bible, and I am proud of it.

These old documents I have some sealed with the old orange wax with
royal crowns, etc.  but the two old bibles I have are my prize
possessions and the famly tree which reaches out at least 15 fee, all
validated.

Ever note how these Americans fall on all fours before the Kings and
Queens - and religion after all if a form of ancestor worship.   My
family got down on all fours to nobody - long line too of Cavaliers - no
Quakers.right to original Knight Templar .

Further St. Patrick carried the Fitzgerald Coat of Arms (my father was
Fitzgerald, Neville, Fleming and a Walsh) - so here's to the Irish this
March 17 - they celebrate a day for the Fitzgeralds and do not even know
it - well my father knew this and I imagine his Knight of Columbus
friends, did too.
So thanks again.
  
Hello Saba,
Well, I must say that I really do not understand what you are saying.  I apologize as it seems that English is not your native language and your style of writing is very confusing to me.  I am sure the fault is mine.
Actually, I was not directing my comments towards you. I was directing them to the all of the members that use the bible as an historical reference towards people and events.  Especially to those that use it as a written prophecy for things occurring now or in the future.
The reason that the old 

Re: [CTRL] Joel was Son of Ladan

[Don S. Brown]

Hello,
 I appreciate your slanderous remarks about me. It means that ignorance and vindictiveness is alive and doing well.
I was not conscious of the fact that I had insulted you, but then I am basically just an ignorant blue collar guy trying to figure it all out.

Well Don Brown that sure puts holes in this Chosen People crap.   My
major concern is the use of this "Murderer's Bible" as a communication
and the connection to the Gideon placed bible.

Of course this "Chosen People" thing is just claptrap. That is an ascertion made by a people for their own ego's.A way for the priests to control the thoughts and actions of their minions. The concept of Judaism as a monotheistic religion is false. Throughout the OT you will find that the priests were constantly sniffing out and spying on/persecuting Jew's that worshiped other Gods. The Moon God Vs the Sun God. It is there in front of your eyes.

Obviously you are an expert on something but not sure what if it is all
based upon one lie after anothere?

I am an expert on nothing. I cannot even balance my check book (I must have more money, I have more checks). I am, however, not a sheep and am willing to question the veracity of patently mythos type writing of the OT and NT. This being done by research of ancient documents, history, geography and, admittedly, by accepting the findings of some very knowledgeable, learned people that have committed lifetimes to the study of the bible. As to my lies, please point them out to me.

So obviously too your family did not keep old wills, famly trees and
bibles - the oldest bible I have is from 1700 period, but the two I use
are from early 1800 and late 1800 period.

I do not understand how you make this leap in logic. My mother is a genealogist and has traced her family, the Neasmyth's to 900ce. I own a book called, "Naesmyth, Descendants of Georgia, USA" which traces our lineage to the founding colonist of this state, where I happen to live. No, I am not a cannibal. My family were on the side of the revolutionists in America and a cousin was the scribe that wrote the document that John Smith presented to the Queen of England concerning his pilgrimage here. My ancestors were lowlander Scotts and English. On my father's side, the Brown's, we were descendants of some of the finest pig thieves and cattle rustlers of Europe.

So you say it is all a lot of lies?  Quite a few brilliant Jesuits I
have known would obviously challenged you on that but the bible is the
basis, of the law.   Nothing more, nothing less and obviously you do not
know the meaning of the word "religion".

I did not say the bible is full of lies. I said, more or less, that it was a mythos representation of events and persona's of a certain culture. Sometimes the events of a whole tribe covering hundreds of years were put into the form of super characters, like Moses, Solomon, David, etc.
As to the NT, well I highly recommend that you study the origins of Christianity to see what that movement was about and how it was created from a Jewish sense of survival (not very popular to be Jewish circa 70CE) and the Helenization of the Hebrews. The text's themselves were not written as lies. They were midrash and mythos. As to what is religion? Well, the manipulation of the peoples fears by the priests who "communed" with God as is true with virtually all of them. Religious power is control of people in regards to the triumvirate of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Jesuits? Please, some of the most evil people in the world. Their quest for money, land and control of peoples is common history. As to the Jesuit's. Fuck them. 

But again, my only concern is this Mafia thing who has built their cause
and rituals for murder and slaughter, about the bible.  But then as my
old friend always said what better book to use for it goes into every
country in the world?

Well, Your sentence is disjointed, but I think that I agree. The bible can be used by anyone to give credence to any thing.

The bible is also a geography book giving key locations of gold and
uranium and great treasures that the Zionists are targeting.

The geography of the bible is notoriously incorrect. As to Uranium and great treasures, I have no idea what you are talking about.

From what you say though this sure shoots the hell out of these Zionist
claiming to want the Holy Land for "religious purposes" of course, they
would end up making it a tourist attraction.

Look, these "Zionist's" are as deluded as you are. There are no "chosen people of God". The Romans obliterated, in 135ce, the area of Judah because these people could not compromise. They brought that upon themselves. 

But then you know how it is over here - we have cannibals in Georgia
collecting dead bodies until we have our own little Valley of the Dry
Bones  and some heaps of body parts too leaning towards maybe sale of
body parts..we have New York City like a Babylong and a small city
within blown to hell - with 3,000 people turned to 

[CTRL] (no subject)

[Don S. Brown]

Hola,

In response to June:
BTW, I am DEFINITELY no thumper and I am the last to push the Bible as inerring historical fact...but you, OTOH, are only presenting personal opinion that isn't supported by recent archeological discoveries and modern biblical-era scholarship...

I would beg to differ that I am representing personal opinion. I cite the work of Prof. Israel Finkelstein director of he Sonia and Marco Institute of Archeology at Tel Aviv University and Prof. Neil Silberman director of historical interpretation for the Ename Center for public Archeology and Heritage Presentation in Belgium and also a contributing editor of Archeology Magazine. I previously gave a starter book list (which I will add at the end) to get anyone searching for an understanding of early church history a source of reference works. It is by no means a complete list.
I have gone out of my way to try and not be opinionated and to try to find facts that adhere to my belief's (or lack of) as proofs of said beliefs. My conclusions are based on the evidences for and against historical accuracy of the bible. Ultimately any knowledge is questionable and a reasonable person with an open mind can still only be so certain.
As to recent archeological discoveries and biblical-era scholarship that refutes what I think I know, well lay it on me. The problem with most biblical scholarship is that it is done by believers. It is forbidden by many biblical study organizations to refute the findings of the bible. I am bound by no such shackles. Take for instance the interpretation of the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Qumran documents as they are known. Access to them was strictly controlled by a cabal of scholars with agenda's and it took a concentrated effort to get them released for study by independent researches. I thank Dr. Eisenman and others for their efforts there.
When you talk of biblical era scholars I need remind you that the church controlled knowledge and information and used it to wield power amongst the mostly illiterate. I am speaking of biblical scholarship from 350 to the mid 1800's. It was heresy to question the dogma and text's with severe punishment for those with open minds.
I have reviewed the available works of many, many church fathers from the first century onward and they are rife with false history, propagation of known lies and blatant forged documents and letters to support their positions.
The early Christian church was indeed a forgery mill. Letters from Jesus to neighboring kings, letters from Pontius Pilate, etc. In fact the sheer ridiculousness of some of these forgeries were an embarrassment to the church and it removed many previously canonized documents and letters.

And don't forget the Assyrian myths that were also borrowed...
 
I agree that the majority of the Bible is based on myths from earlier 'pagan' civilizations...but that doesn't mean that the myths don't contain an element of truth... ;-) 

Exactly! That is what I am saying, mythos borrowed from mythos. Conquering tribes and nations incorporating the useful ideas and beliefs of the conquered and demonizing that which they did not like. The majority of original Saints of the Catholic church were Mithraic figures. They were, with sometimes subtle name changes, transformed into Christian concept figures to attract the illiterate Pagan's. That is the reason for the stained glass depiction of biblical scenes in churches. It was to give the Pagan's a visual stimulus to support their dogma. Of course there is some truths to the myths of old. The problem with the ancient ones are that the real events are so lost in time that unless new archeological finds of writings more ancient than the Sumerian and Babylonian tablets we probably will never be able to correlate them with available texts. So, let's say, "here are some old writings". "Here is a system of beliefs from an ancient people" Not take them at face value and start a cult of Gilgamesh or whatever.

For example, here in the U.S. we have a secular myth regarding George Washington chopping down a cherry tree as a boy and throwing a silver dollar across the Delaware River; while these myths are not objectively 'true', they DO contain subjective truths...and the fact that they are myths doesn't change the fact that George Washington WAS an actual person who DID have a significant impact on our history and culture...

Well, I am sure that the myths of Zeus had some basis in truths. I am sure they had a significant affect on the Greek people. I do not think that is proof of his existence.
In the future say there was a technological breakdown and long after people learned to read again. James Bond might seem like a real person that did wondrous things. However, they would be hard pressed to find writing of contemporaries of Bond, James Bond.
You see, with Christianity that is one of the main stumbling blocks to asserting his historocity. No one in that era ever wrote about him. They wrote about the Christian 

Re: [CTRL] Joel was Son of Ladan

[Don S. Brown]

As Saba post's to revcoal (June):



This guy no doubt looks yiddish, thinks zulu, and acts like "no collar"
6 pack Charlie sitting on bar stool with seat belt hooked on ready for
big trip.


Ha, I am 6'3 190lbs thick dark hair and pretty as a girl.
db

Re: [CTRL] Joel was Son of Ladan

[Don S. Brown]

Christ was speaking Greek?

Most likely, as it was the common tongue used throughout the region, and
had been since the time of Alexander the Great...

Hebrew was reserved for the Temple and religious matters, Greek was what
was used for everyday business; the language used at home by Jews of that
era was probably a mix of Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic...but when Jesus spoke
to a group of people that would have included non-Jews, it would have made
sense that He spoke to them in Greek and Aramaic, two languages that would
have been understood by all listeners

Ah yes, the mythical Jesus. Learned linguist and educator of the masses. I love statements of fact about persons that never existed. I wonder how King Arthur felt about liver and onions or William Tell about barbed arrows vs flat.
It is amazing that on CTRL the majority of the members talk about the personages of the old/new testament as if they really existed. Abraham, Moses, Noah myths one and all. The absurd notion that "Jesus Christ" was a real person is only a tribute to the lack of research, gullibility and personal agendas of those that espouse such nonsense. We have three factions of the same false history: Judaism, Christianity and Islam and evil to the core are they all. Here we are 2000 years later (well of course "Mohammed" was a little closer to our time) and we are embroiled in world conflict pitting Jews against Islam against Christianity against everyone.
Oh, the Hindu's are not without fault and in fact predate these other 3 in their ability to manipulate the masses with priestly control.
Jews are Semites (just a word as Shem was a myth) and so are the Jordanians, Syrians Palestinians etc. The Jews did not escape with the great Exodus from Egypt and destroy the Canaanite's. They were the Canaanite's and other pastoral peoples mixed in. Jesus was a word Chrestos was a word together there are a coupling of words. Jesus Christ. Anointed Savior. 
I believe that the main religions should be taught in school. They should be taught along with Greek mythology, African Shamanism, Norse Gods and all the rest of the quaint myths that we know and love. 
We are fighting and killing one another because of generations of ignorance, brainwashing and perpetuation of myth.
Save all the "you will be damned to hell" rhetoric. I have done my homework. Do yours.
Here is a list to start you on your way:
Liberating the Gospels by Shelby Spong
The Bible Unearthed by Israel Finklestein and Asher Silberman
The Christ Conspiracy by Acharya S
Forgery in Christianity by Joseph Wheless
Who wrote the Bible by Richard Elliot Friedman
History of the Christian Religion to the year 200 by Charles B. Waite
James the Brother of Jesus by Robert Eisenman
The Nag Hamadi Library by James M. Robinson
The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty
The Diegesis by Robert Taylor

A thorough understanding of geography and history of the Middle East would do well in your studies as well.
Jesus never walked on Earth. Get over it and let's start solving some of our problems instead of continuing the same inane path of the past 2600 years. Of course, if Christ is your crutch, then lean on brother lean on.
db

Re: [CTRL] Somalia's President says the USA terrorizes the Country (CNN)ia Al

[Don S. Brown]

Hey,


i know you from ren faire don't i?



Not likely. However a guy that works for me, Morgan, fights at ren faire events quite regularly. He and his wife traveled for about 6 years with one. She is Zia Ali and has a website,
www.tribaldance.com.
I practice real martial arts and give Morgan grief about his psuedo art. He loves it and should soon be knighted.
Hasta,
Ham

Re: [CTRL] Somalia's President says the USA terrorizes the Country (CNN)

[Don S. Brown]

In a message dated 1/17/02 6:45:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


The Marines are still (and rightly so, I might add) seriously pissed about
Mogadishu. It was a poorly conceived military action, no matter which way
you look at it. But the Marines do not forget nor forgive.



Hola,
I am a former Marine and I would add the caveat that a long memory is great, but it doesn't mean anything. Reagan was told not to station troops on land in Beirut. We had plenty of ships to house a security force close by to come in if needed.
A suicide bomber, a couple of hundred dead marines and over a decade later and no one has paid for that episode yet.
Our activities in Somalis were not humanitarian nor in the interest of it's citizens. 
Marines, Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen are just tools of the corporations. Go die so we can pump gas/dope/minerals from the given enemy of the day.
As a former Marine general once said, "War is a racket."
I concur.
Ham

Re: [CTRL] Purposeful Amnesia

[Don S. Brown]

In a message dated 1/8/02 12:16:50 AM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



Howdy


Bill Clinton is getting $12 million for his memoirs,
and Hillary got $8 million for hers.

That's $20 million for two people who for eight
years couldn't remember anything



As opposed to Reagan's 8 years of not being able to hear anything.
Ham

[CTRL] The Test

[Don S. Brown]

This is something I read over at Bartcop.
Hasta,
Ham


The Test
-Start with a cage containing five monkeys. -Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. -Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all the other monkeys with cold water. -After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result...all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. -Pretty soon, when another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it. Now, put away the cold water. -Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. -The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted. -Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm! -Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked. Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were not  
permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey. RESULTS: After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Because as far as they know that's the way it's always been done around here.  This is how religions start. -Terry Torkildson 

Re: [CTRL] America's Terrorist Training Camp

[Don S. Brown]

Hello All,
This month, Nov. 16-19, at Ft Benning, Georgia the School of America Watch is having a protest. Their web site is:

http://www.soaw.org/home.html

I will be going and am encouraging as many people to do so as possible. Personally, I am nauseated at the use and repetitiveness of the word, "Evil" by our selected leader. The program at Ft. Benning is the epitome of that word, to me.

On January 17, 2001 the SOA was replaced by the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHISC).  

This was a smoke screen. The charter is the same. The goal is the same. Create terrorist to foment destabilization in regions that, after a hundred years, we still can't win the hearts and minds of their indigenous peoples. The list of graduates is a litany of despots, thugs and murderers.

I do not see how our administration can, with a straight face, talk about routing out terrorism while maintaining the program at Ft. Benning in Columbus, Georgia. 

I think that it will be interesting to see what security measures the government takes this year. I will be video taping the event. Hopefully the "first amendment" zone will not be Atlanta, a hundred miles away from there.

Hasta,
Ham

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: What I've Learned About U.S. Foreign Policy

[Don S. Brown]

Hola Samantha
Could you provide an address or phone/e0mail for this guy.
Thanks,
Ham




In a message dated 10/19/01 7:19:21 PM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:




 I ordered this video and watched it last night. I knew most of what was
presented already, but seeing the images made a deep impression. I learned
new things about Panama, and especially about East Timor. Needless to say, I
didn't sleep very well last night. People need to know this stuff, though it
will probably cost a few nights' sleep.

Samantha

In a message dated 9/28/01 12:03:17 AM Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 My name is Frank Dorrel. I live in Culver City, California. I
 consider myself to be a peace activist. I am a Veteran for
 Peace. I work with the Save the Iraqi Children Coalition, and
 with many of the other peace organizations here in Los Angeles.

 I put together video compilations on U.S. foreign policy. My
 best video is called "WHAT I'VE LEARNED ABOUT U.S. FOREIGN POLICY, CIA
 Covert Operations and U.S. Interventions Since World War II- What You
Didn't
 Learn in School and Don't Hear on the Mainstream Media".

 It is available for a $5 donation, plus postage. I am willing to mail it to
 you before receiving payment. It is a 2-hour compilation featuring 10
 segments which I have edited. They are as follows:

[CTRL] THE GREAT MELTING POT

[Don S. Brown]

Hello Barbara,
Well, first one must remember that one of the main reasons for the mass immigration of peoples in the late 1800s and up till W.W.II was due to economic manipulation of world economies by international bankers. Intentional pain and suffering brought unto countless millions. As continues to happen today.
As to the eagerness of the American citizens to absorb them into their culture, well, we Americans have always been receptive to cheap labor. Much more honorable than flag waving, rah-rah rhetoric would be, IMHO, to try and understand and help with the root causes of mass immigration. Of course most of the peoples that came here took on our ways and attitudes to certain degrees. However, rampant prejudice was the norm in those "grand old days" that you are recalling.
I am from the South West and no matter how noble or self effacing the Hispanic populations were, they were thought of and referred to as Spics and Mezcins and basically denied acceptance into mainstream society. Of course with Hispanics it is somewhat different now.
However, having lived in the North East in Mass and NY I know that the"Micks, Wops, Kikes" ,etc. had their own roads to hoe. Striving for acceptance and thwarted from entry into the main stream. Of course the rich elite from all races and creeds can pay their entry fee's to those institutions. Also a large portion of Jewish immigration was due to pogroms instituted by the world bankers to cause massive migration to the US so they could be distributed throughout the country, educated enough to be naturalized citizens and to be registered to vote. This was done to give the Schiff, Rothschild group a hand in taking over the Democratic political platform.
Yes, there has been US bashing. However, not by the press and other media. I am appalled at the lack of dissent in the mainstream press. I am appalled that my family and friends consider dissent to be treasonous. I am disturbed by the lack of a common cry from all of these huddled masses for a responsible government with a responsible foreign policy. Hell, even a little involvement with the system would be good. Our national voting population is below 50% if I am not mistaken (please correct if I am).
The citizens of this country are great and diversified. We see our selves as champions of right and citizens of the one true free place on earth. However, in our focus for self gratification and ignorance of our countries effect on the rest of the world, we are all culpable for crimes against humanity. We purchase without shame manufactured goods produced in sweatshops. We establish our mega-corporation branches in China that kills 190 citizens a day along with other atrocities. We use Guatemalan and Honduran refugees on our construction sites at below minimum wage and care less that our intervention in their countries is what drove them to our lands. Of course the examples are numerous.
I agree that we should all come together. First, we should demand that the press be returned to the US citizens. Our people wallow in ignorance and PR induced coma's of misunderstanding. We need to reclaim our schools from the government and start educating instead of indoctrinating.
I guess if we get those two things worked out I will point out some other areas that need to be addressed.
Thanks,
Ham












There seems to be a lot of bashing of the United States that goes on and 
has gone on for quite awhile. It’s true we have put our political foot 
into it many a time, sticking our nose perhaps where it should not have 
been. But we’re a great country and most of us who have lived long 
enough, and traveled even a little in our lives, know that the heart and 
center of courage and independence resides with us. We opened our hearts 
and our arms to all nations, and all peoples, and became the great 
melting pot. It was a good idea, a lot of fine people came here to help 
us grow and evolve as a nation. Times have changed. I think standards 
should be higher. I think we should come together as a people, if we are 
going to call ourselves Americans.

[CTRL] Spy In the Whitehouse.....

[Don S. Brown]

 Perhaps these statements give credence to Mr. LaRouche's thoughts that there are rogue ellements in our government that are, in fact, behind these events.
Hasta,
Ham      





           "  They also believe that terrorists are in possession of all or part of
                       the codes used by the Drug Enforcement Administration, the
                       National Reconnaissance Office, Air Force Intelligence, Army
                       Intelligence, Naval Intelligence, Marine Corps Intelligence and the
                       intelligence offices of the State Department and Department of
                       Energy."

[CTRL] What Really Happened

[Don S. Brown]

http://whatreallyhappened.com/

[CTRL] Fwd: Update: Terrorism and U.S. Policy

[Don S. Brown]

The Home page for this group is:http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/
Hasta,
Ham



In a message dated 9/21/01 7:59:26 PM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


National Security Archive Update, September 21, 2001

*The September 11th Source Books, Volume I: Terrorism and U.S. Policy*

http://www.nsarchive.org/NSAEBB/sept11/

Washington, D.C., September 21 – The horrific September 11th terrorist attacks
on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon brought all of us here at the
Archive feelings of rage at the hijackers, grief for the thousands who were
murdered, and also determination that we will contribute to finding the best
ways for America to respond. The Archive’s mission is to put on the record
the primary source documentation that can enrich the policy debate, improve
journalism, educate policymakers, and ensure that we don’t reinvent the wheel
or repeat the mistakes of the past.

To these ends, we begin today by publishing the first volume in a series
called The September 11th Sourcebooks. We have cast a wide net, because the
policy debate itself is also ranging widely, from deployment options abroad to
wiretap surveillance at home. This first volume contains the documents that
our staff experts, led by Dr. Jeffrey Richelson and coordinated by Michael
Evans, have selected as the most important primary sources on U.S. terrorism
policy. These materials include CIA biographic sketches of Usama Bin Ladin
and Taliban leader Mohammad Omar, reports from the Pentagon and the Senate
Intelligence Committee on previous terrorist attacks on the USS Cole and the
Khobar Towers, the State Department’s overview of global terrorism and the
FBI’s review of terrorism in the U.S. We have included several of the most
relevant Congressional Research Service briefs, six of the General Accounting
Office’s most recent reports on combating terrorism, plus the key policy
directives on terrorism from the Pentagon and from Presidents Reagan and
Clinton.

In coming days, we plan to publish a volume of documents from both Soviet and
U.S. files on the lessons of the last war in Afghanistan, and other volumes on
specific topics in the current policy debate, such as the U.S. ban on
assassinations and the CIA guidelines on recruiting assets. We welcome your
ideas, queries and suggestions for other topics and other documents. How will
we make the United States – and the world – both secure and free?

The documents are available at the following URL:

http://www.nsarchive.org/NSAEBB/sept11/
___





National Security Archive Update, September 21, 2001

*The September 11th Source Books, Volume I: Terrorism and U.S. Policy*

http://www.nsarchive.org/NSAEBB/sept11/

Washington, D.C., September 21 – The horrific September 11th terrorist attacks
on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon brought all of us here at the
Archive feelings of rage at the hijackers, grief for the thousands who were
murdered, and also determination that we will contribute to finding the best
ways for America to respond.  The Archive’s mission is to put on the record
the primary source documentation that can enrich the policy debate, improve
journalism, educate policymakers, and ensure that we don’t reinvent the wheel
or repeat the mistakes of the past.

To these ends, we begin today by publishing the first volume in a series
called The September 11th Sourcebooks.  We have cast a wide net, because the
policy debate itself is also ranging widely, from deployment options abroad to
wiretap surveillance at home.  This first volume contains the documents that
our staff experts, led by Dr. Jeffrey Richelson and coordinated by Michael
Evans, have selected as the most important primary sources on U.S. terrorism
policy.  These materials include CIA biographic sketches of Usama Bin Ladin
and Taliban leader Mohammad Omar, reports from the Pentagon and the Senate
Intelligence Committee on previous terrorist attacks on the USS Cole and the
Khobar Towers, the State Department’s overview of global terrorism and the
FBI’s review of terrorism in the U.S.  We have included several of the most
relevant Congressional Research Service briefs, six of the General Accounting
Office’s most recent reports on combating terrorism, plus the key policy
directives on terrorism from the Pentagon and from Presidents Reagan and
Clinton.

In coming days, we plan to publish a volume of documents from both Soviet and
U.S. files on the lessons of the last war in Afghanistan, and other volumes on
specific topics in the current policy debate, such as the U.S. ban on
assassinations and the CIA guidelines on recruiting assets.  We welcome your
ideas, queries and suggestions for other topics and other documents.  How will
we make the United States – and the world – both secure and free?

The documents are available at the following URL:

http://www.nsarchive.org/NSAEBB/sept11/
___
THE NATIONAL SECURITY 

[CTRL] IMF Meeting Postponed. Is DC Fenced In?

[Don S. Brown]

Hola,
I was wondering why the media have not mentioned the IMF rescheduling their meeting that was suposed to be this month. I was under the impresion that DC was being barricaded with a fence 26 miles around. 
I was wondering if anyone here has been around DC and can give us a heads up.
Also a very important group was to have met with the IRS this month to discuss, for the first time with representatives from congress and the IRS, the 16th legality of the 16th amendmant, the IRS operating without due process, illegal siezures and specificaly why do we have to pay income tax when the IRC clearly states the paramenters for who those liable for income tax are.
1) Citizens of DC, Puerto Rico and other US territories.
2) US citizens working for US companies abroad, and
3) Foriegn antionals working in the US of A

I liave in Georgia and do not fit into any of those criteria. Of course I still have to pay. Or Else. What a pleasent form of theft. I digress.
The group: We the People For Constitutional Education at www.givemeliberty.org have been trying for years to get redress for these issues and have never been able to get a response to any querries. For YEARS!!! We have a constitutional right to redress. It took a hunger strike from the chairman of this group to get support from a couple of congressmen to look into this and they said, yes, they do have a right to redress an they will get it. About fucking time.
Anyway, unfortunatly this historic meeting is a casualty of this despicable event. 

Hasta,
Ham

[CTRL] Forgetting Foriegn Affairs

[Don S. Brown]

Caveat Lector


TomPaine.commentary
FORGETTING FOREIGN AFFAIRS
American Media Cut Overseas Reporting
AUDIO and TEXT Nina Burleigh has written for The Washington Post, The Chicago Tribune, and New York magazine. As a reporter for TIME, she was among the first American journalists to enter Iraq after the Gulf War.

 respond email this article  print   subscribe to TP.c


AUDIO: Click here to listen to Ms. Burleigh's commentary.
To download RealPlayer for free, click here.


This commentary was produced by Steven Rosenfeld.


Regular CNN viewers might think that a small group of foreign correspondents normally stationed overseas who were reporting from the States last week were called back home because of the disaster. The truth is more ironic and is one piece of a bigger, troubling trend in US media's foreign coverage.

At least four CNN overseas reporters just happened to be in the U.S. on September 11 because they had been called home to be told that they were either about to lose their jobs, or were going to have to start working from their homes to save the company money.

Foreign news cutbacks are not a recent phenomenon. National newspapers and magazines have shut scores of overseas bureaus in recent years. The cutbacks not only save money for the beancounters but reflect an editorial decision-making process that judges Americans' need to know based on focus groups. This tool of advertisers and political consultants has declared that "serving the public" means more stories about cars, celebrities and cures that don't involve pain. Forget foreign affairs.

The foreign news blackout means that the rest of the world knows far more about America than we know about ourselves, let alone what we know about them. And this triumph of ignorance means that Americans can't even comprehend what motivates those who hate us.

Thanks to these so-called "editorial decisions" at the big news organizations, Americans have little to go on to assess Osama bin Laden, his followers, the Arab people, and the states that we are told by the President harbor the terror networks. The White House would have the public believe that we're hated because we are the land of the free. If only the current state of affairs were so simple.

The last time I visited Baghdad, as a reporter in fall 1998, there wasn't much of a market for a story in the U.S. about bin Laden's popular allure on Arab streets. No matter that he had been the FBI's most wanted man for several years. Editors I worked with then were rarely interested in stories about Arabs that didn't involve an immediate crisis.

But there was a story. On that same trip, I met a young man in Jordan who drives visitors around Amman for a living. One night I asked him what he knew of bin Laden, who at the time had just been the target of an America bombing campaign for allegedly blowing up American embassies in Africa, killing hundreds. I was surprised when the young man's entire voice and demeanor changed.

"Osama bin Laden," he whispered reverentially, dragging out the vowels. "He sleeps under trees. He doesn't care about money or sex. He is pure."

The young man went on to explain that cassette tapes of bin Laden's speeches were quite popular in Amman, easily acquired and passed around among his friends. He also said if the Jordanian police nearby overheard him uttering bin Laden's name to me, he'd be in trouble. Over the next few days, we talked some more about his idol, and I was always shocked by the palpable reverence in which he held bin Laden.

This man was not a terrorist and not a martyr-in-training. He was a practicing Muslim Jordanian with a lot of exposure to Westerners. I learned then that bin Laden's power over him had less to do with the Americans and more to do with intra-Arab politics. In Jordan, where many Palestinian refugees and sympathizers live, he said the Saudi sheiks -- not Israel -- are seen as a major corrupting element among the Muslim population. The oil-rich Saudis practice ascetic restraint at home, but cross the border into Jordan to buy British booze and Iraqi or Jordanian women. My driver said he knew this firsthand.

Many Arabs -- not just bin Laden and his suicidal followers -- view Saudi moral corruption as a cancer on the whole region. From talking to this young man and his friends, I realized that for a significant number of poor Arab Muslims, hatred of America was only one part of bin Laden's complex allure. Curiously -- or perhaps not given their total isolation -- once inside Iraq I didn't find anyone on the streets of Bagdad who had even heard of bin Laden.

But back in the States, a heard-on-the-streets story about this man on the FBI's most wanted list wasn't wanted at all. The lack of interest in Arab affairs that I experienced as a freelance journalist was not just a symptom of the fashion- and buzz-infested glossy magazines. The television networks, newspapers and magazines have all been cutting back on foreign coverage for 

[CTRL] Christian Terrorism

[Don S. Brown]

Ah, I can see it now.  GW mobilizes to remove all evil.  He assaults terrorism and those that give it succor. 
News Flash  Marine Jump Jets strafe 1st Babtist Church of Palookaville.  Mines laid in NC around home of William Rudolph.  Right to Lifer Leaders assasinated by Lon Horiuchi.  Driven by schizophrenia, the FBI  bombs itself.  Film at 11:00

Ham

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-74771sep17.column?coll=la%2Dnews%2Dcomment%2Dopinions


It is worth reminding ourselves that extreme Christian fundamentalism breeds its own violent cells of terrorists here at home. According to the Abortion Rights League, there have been 2,500 reported attacks and 55,000 acts of illegal disruption against medical clinics since the late 1970s in the United States.








    

[CTRL] Sept 11 Connection

[Don S. Brown]

From a link at Devvy Kid's site.
Ham



http://www.davidsonpress.com/PP.htm

[CTRL] Greetings

[Don S. Brown]

Hey Chad,
I am new to this list as well. I have been looking into the Illuminati, IMF, CFR and Skull and Bones groups for about a year and a half. 
A good book is, "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" by Gary Allen
The activities on 9/11 certainly seem to behoove this group.
Hasta,
Ham



"I’ve only become aware of groups like the illuminati recently through such books from David Icke, and I’m curious to find other people’s perspective on this material."

[CTRL] CTRL] Fwd: Boston Globe Online / Editorials | Opinions /

[Don S. Brown]

"Have a feeling the guy who wrote this story might know a little more
than he reveals; however, one thing about the Boston Globe - years ago I
communicated witth this old reporter a couple of times and he too,
thought J Edgar Hoover was murdered in the night - on May Day? Same
day I guess Chandra Levy disappeared.A communist day of Celebration
so I assume if we look back upon Russia that day they were celebrating
May Day and not Deatha of J Edgar Hoover who believed the Communist was
the greatest threat to this country - see his Masters of Deceit, and see
how this great man has been villified and by whom?"

And of course the Illuminati was formed officially on May 1, 1776 and that is the meaning of the MDCCLXXVI at the bottom of the pyramid on the one dollar bill. It is not for the decleration of independance. Remember, these are the same people that brought us the 16th amendment and the Federal Reserve.
Hasta,
Ham

Re: [CTRL] nukes

[Don S. Brown]

Hello All,
Well as a newbie here I will throw my hat in the ring of opinions as to what the answer is. Or rather some answers.
1) Open forum on foreign policy
2) acquire some sort of integrity in reporting so Americans can make informed decisions.
3) Quit wasting intelligence assets tied up in domestic abuse and put them out where the plans are hatched
4) Legalize drugs and remove the financing for subversive, illegal and covert actions
5) Get Americans to care about their country and to be involved in the process.
6) Quit being mindless, compulsive PR driven consumers and slow the fuck down.
7) Get the US Government to make a moderate effort at following the Constitutional guidelines.
That would be a start.

OBTW as none of this is going to happen, get ready for a shit storm seems to be Plan B.
Ham







 US respond with  nuclear weapons, what good does that

do, the game is already over. 

So, whats the answer?
BHoward