Re: [slim] What an election.
BJW wrote: > Venezuela, more than a sad story: > > https://www.washingtonpost.com > > Could you please edit your post, or better still stick to commenting on social media? Touch, Logitech Radio, Logitech UE Radio, O2 Joggler + SqpOS UPnPBridge - 2 paired Sonos Play1 speakers; Rocki - Sony SRS-BTM8 speaker; Pioneer WX-SMA1 speaker; - PURE One Flow internet radio: PURE Jongo S3x ; Jongo T2; Libratone Zipp Castbridge - Chromecast 1 + Chromecast Audio AirplayBridge - Loewe Airspeaker SB Player - Fire TV castalla's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15624 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Venezuela, more than a sad story: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/venezuelas-economy-is-so-bad-parents-are-leaving-their-children-at-orphanages/2018/02/12/8021d180-0545-11e8-aa61-f3391373867e_story.html How anyone educated couldn't have seen this coming when they supported a vicious dictator like Chafez and his socialist commie pals, idk. Read a history book! using: win7 64 + lms 7.9 & duet & ipads w/the logitech app, and ipeng on an ipod http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/various_artists_logic & http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/compilations BJW's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58242 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
interesting to revisit this thread a near decade later. given what is going on in Venezuela, i think its rather clear who was right about that issue. and it looks like Iraq is managing to hold on to its Democracy. also, it looks like Obama's biggest legacy will be Trump, b/c without Obama, there is no Trump; or in other words had McCain won, there'd be no Trump today. oh well. using: win7 64 + lms 7.9 & duet & ipads w/the logitech app, and ipeng on an ipod http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/various_artists_logic & http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/compilations BJW's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58242 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Maybe we should let this thread die. I don't say this because I'm against discussing politics here. But it has become a very strange discussion. Where we could have an interesting discussion with arguments taken from inhabitants of different countries, we see one American defending a certain form of American politics (thank God it has not always been this way) and others trying to bring some reason into the thread. You may conclude I'm with Pippin mostly. MrSinatra may have to explain what he sees as the lack of support in Afghanistan not only to the British and German, but also to the Dutch (and all the other countries who are there). But of course, he will say we don't do enough also... This is what American supremacy boils down to. Nonreality, I surely think this election can mean a big change for the country and the world. Let's hope the American unilateralism ends with Obama and the old alliances start to work again. Teus -- Teus de Jong Teus de Jong's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15415 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Mike from slimdevices has clarified that this is the right forum to post an occasional post that isn't about music or the SB in whatever form. It was nice to get a clarification about this because there was a small but vocal group that was very upset about this thread. They basically thought they owned this forum and started 3 or more threads about us cluttering up their email with something they didn't want to read. I really didn't start this thread to upset them and actually didn't really think about them but didn't want a partisan first post either gloating or crying about the election but just an observation that it was one of the more interesting ones in recent times and hoping for the best for the USA and the rest of the world and for more good music. I really thought it was a message that would not upset anyone. But it did anyway. I really find it weird that anyone would be upset about a discussion about this in a general thread. One has even taken his ball home he was that upset. It was just one thread. I just don't get it. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Why thank you [blushes] -- badbob badbob's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7358 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54884 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
No, Your clogging up the forum with this spam. Thread number 3 is a joke. -- autopilot *Lounge :* Squeezebox Classic -> Cambridge Audio Azur 640a -> Mission 701's. *Bedroom :* Squeezebox Receiver -> Trends TA10.1 Class-T -> Kef Cresta 1's *Office :* Softsqueeze -> Logitech Active 5.1's. *Kitchen :* Squeezebox Boom -coming soon- *Roaming : * Squeezebox Controller -> Logitech mm28 portable speakers / Shure E2c's *Controllers :* Squeezebox Controller x 2 + Logitech Harmony one *Server :* SC7.3b (Vista 64) + AlienBBC, iPlayer & MusicIP headless. 'LAST.FM' (http://www.last.fm/user/domrevans/) autopilot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1763 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54884 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
egd;358370 Wrote: > Perhaps it's time for everyone to give their Woodstock a listen :) It reminds me that I have still to get the CD version... "Before the Flood", as well. :) -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Perhaps it's time for everyone to give their Woodstock a listen :) -- egd Internet forums: conclusive proof depth of gene pool is indeed variable, monkeys can be taught to cut code, and world peace is utterly unrealistic... Integrating MusicIP with SqueezeCenter...'*here's how*' (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Integrating_MusicIP_with_SqueezeCenter). egd's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3425 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
MrSinatra;358325 Wrote: > so could you explain exactly what we did to chile to fight their > "democratic" gov't?On wikipedia, you have the "soft" version : > The nationalization of U.S. and other foreign-owned companies led to > increased tensions with the United States. The Nixon administration > brought international financial pressure to bear in order to restrict > economic credit to Chile. Simultaneously, the CIA funded opposition > media, politicians, and organizations, helping to accelerate a campaign > of domestic destabilization. But I suppose you know all that. And if you don't, well, then, nevermind. :) -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
I helped knock on doors for Obama in NH. We had no signs or name tags and first approached folks asking them about the election. Our job was to find undecided voters. Man were republicans bitter and democrats were so friendly, the contrast was huge. And this was during the time McCain was AHEAD. I respect folks right to vote for whom ever they wish but man it amazes me how folks justified their votes. If anyone caught Boston Legal the night before it really was fantastic and made the point so clear. Of how crazy the justifications were. I also thought Ron Howards video clip was awesome and was right on the money. Folks were afraid of change. -- mswlogo XP > Cat5 > Transporter > SPDIF > Meridian G68 > DSP 6000, 5500HC, 33 XP > Cat5 > SB3 > SPDIF > Meridian DSP 5000 XP > Cat5 > SB3 > SPDIF > Meridian G91 > DSP 5000 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
MrSinatra;358345 Wrote: > > do you consider the russian elections "fair" as well? > No. > > do you consider it a fair election when there is no free press? > Well, Jimmy Carter does. But he's a socialist, I know... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3571350.stm When he lost one, even the US gov. thought it's fair: http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gYHgWXg21cI0i-8AseulYJNg69VQ > > sorry, in america we know a sham when we see it. chavez is a sham, a > complete and total sham. > Of course he is. So is Bush. What's the point? Both are elected shams. > > exactly, why hasn't NATO sanctioned it? the USA wants you to, but you > hide behind technicalities. what an ally. > Could it be that you have no idea what NATO is about? Read it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nato > > exactly, you have no plan, no strategy. all you have are complaints. > i ask you for solutions, you provide none. > yawn Why on earth should I provide you with a solution for a mess you got into against our advice? > > the russians, and you let georgia be totally destroyed by them, and you > do virtually nothing, in any way, as a response. > This is simply wrong. Georgia started the war, not even they would argue about that. THEY argue that they had a "go" by the US government which the latter denies. I tend to believe the US gov. in this case. > > not yet, but russia is threatening. tell me, what will germany do > then? nato? the eu? > No, they are not. Ukraine is a deeply torn apart country between the western part, which is Ukrainian and the eastern part, which is mainly Russian (by population). This is too complex a story to be discussed here in between three lines. But the last time I met Russians and Ukrainians, which was about two weeks ago, they came along pretty well with each other. > > its fair to question the strategy. but i would argue that establishing > a democracy in th middle east is worth it. I'm not sure it is worth the price. What you eventually WILL get is a civil war, after which you may actually have a Democracy in Kurdistan, which then will be invaded by Turkey, which then the US will do nothing about. I don't know what will happen to the Sunni areas but the south will most likely come under Iranian control. Which may not be the worst thing, long term, since the Iranians managed a revolution before (against the US, who supported their Dictator, which in turn largely contributed to all the turmoil between the US and Iran these days) and are liberal by Middle East standards (the people, not the gov.). Until then, a few 100.000 more people will die. Is it worth it? -- pippin --- see iPeng at penguinlovesmusic.com pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
pippin;358330 Wrote: > No, I'm not. > He's an elected president. Several times re-elected. The vote has even > been fair. thats just laughable. do you consider the russian elections "fair" as well? do you consider it a fair election when there is no free press? pippin;358330 Wrote: > I don't like him either, but he DOES have the support of his people. > He did even get more votes than his opponent, a thing not every US > president could claim. where's the rolling eyes avatar? how about i just say "yawn." pippin;358330 Wrote: > What is your standard for a democracy? That it's being run by the > Republican party? > > This is EXACTLY the kind of imperialist attitude the US is being hated > for in big parts of the world. yawn. sorry, in america we know a sham when we see it. chavez is a sham, a complete and total sham. pippin;358330 Wrote: > That's a question of perspective. As I said, they are not allowed to go > into combat as of the German constitution which allows for German > troops to only go into combat under one of two conditions: Sanctioned > by UN or when NATO goes to war. Both is not the case here. exactly, why hasn't NATO sanctioned it? the USA wants you to, but you hide behind technicalities. what an ally. pippin;358330 Wrote: > evidence of the WMD still existing in 2003. The US claimed to have it, > it was a lie. this is nonsense. first, there is a difference between a mistake and a lie. i agree that we were wrong about a great deal we thought we knew. that is a mistake. there is no proof that anyone lied. but the fact remains, that the UN inventoried literally TONS of anthrax, VX, sarin, and mustard gas in the 7 years after the armistice. that stuff, that we, and the UN know he had b/c we inventoried it, is STILL unaccounted for. pippin;358330 Wrote: > When it's against what the rest of the world wants: yes. please, gimmie a break. the rest of the world has no responsiblity, and carrys no water. we can't even depend on NATO to help us in afghanistan. if the rest of the world din't want us in korea, should wenot have done that either? should we have just let the south koreans to the communists? to live as their starving brethren to the north live? pippin;358330 Wrote: > They can't. Read my last post. It's in the constitution. Without that we > would not have gotten the unification. I admit the US were not the > hardliners about this, that was France and the UK, but that's still how > it is. and as i said, NATO should be there, 100%. pippin;358330 Wrote: > Having a plan before going to war would help a good deal, first of all. thats not a strategy, or a solution, thats a complaint about execution, which i agree, has plenty to be criticized. pippin;358330 Wrote: > Iran is not trying to build a nuke, they are trying to play games with > you. And you don't get it. hahaha, ok, and you know this how? and if they get a nuke, what will you say then? whats your plan? pippin;358330 Wrote: > What did you have to negotiate in Iraq? How about just leaving them > alone? They did attack no one (in 2003). there was nothing to negotiate. all saddam had to do was comply, and demonstrate he had destroyed the WMDs, it was on him to do so, it was in the armistice. he didn't, he died as a result. pippin;358330 Wrote: > What's your solution: Stay there for another 150 years and get US > soldiers killed by all sides? Have fun! > Pull out and get a civil war? > Cool plan you had. Cool democracy you got! exactly, you have no plan, no strategy. all you have are complaints. i ask you for solutions, you provide none. we are prepared to do whats necessary, as we always have been, which germany, almost more than any other country, has benefitted from. we could have left you to the russians, or did you forget? pippin;358330 Wrote: > Where it belongs: at home. Please don't forget who started THAT war! the russians, and you let georgia be totally destroyed by them, and you do virtually nothing, in any way, as a response. pippin;358330 Wrote: > What's up with ukraine? No war there. not yet, but russia is threatening. tell me, what will germany do then? nato? the eu? pippin;358330 Wrote: > Yep. But you will not cure brain cancer by amputating legs. its fair to question the strategy. but i would argue that establishing a democracy in th middle east is worth it. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 (primary) / SBR (secondary) / SBC - w/SC 7.3b - Win XP Pro SP3 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - D-Link DIR-655 MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
autopilot;358313 Wrote: > Wow, that's low. There are other nations troops -fighting- there, > including a great deal of British who are in constant combat. There has > been a lot of deaths, including a few from my home town. the english by far and away have been the best to support us, but they have not done all they could do. however, my commen was NOT directed at ONLY the british. autopilot;358313 Wrote: > We are a very small nation so we have less troops there than the US, what? there's something like 60 million people in your country. you guys USED to rule the world, but now you're tiny? autopilot;358313 Wrote: > but a lot for us and they are fighting and fighting hard, they are not > cook's - that's incredibly insulting to there memories and patronising. > Statements like that lead me to wonder what else you don't understand > about what really going on in the world, not much credibility gained > there i'm sorry. i wasn't referring to the english, you have deliberately taken my comments out of context. i was taking about NATO. yes, both america and england are in nato, but i meant what about the other 20 something countries? autopilot;358313 Wrote: > And no, you are clearly calling me racist. You are saying my POV is > racist, so that makes me a racist by it's very definition. you can view it that way if you want, but i clearly said and will repeat, that i do NOT think you are a racist. i do however think your POV/argument that the arabs are not capable of democracy is a racist one, and i stand by it. autopilot;358313 Wrote: > What i said does not deserve such a flaming and abuse, there can't be > many more insulting things than that. Not only that, but you quote me > as saying things i did not say. I am sorry to have to respond in this > way, but i tried to avoid personal insults to fellow forum members. Its > a shame its happened, i would have been great to prove people wrong > about these things becoming flame wars. i have no interest is misrepresenting anything you said, i assure you. i encourage everyone to read what you said, and my responses, and judge on their own the meaning. no one should take my word for it, they should decide for themselves. autopilot;358313 Wrote: > Did anyone else reading this genuinely think i was being racist? again to be clear, i was saying that your argument, as you put it across earlier in the thread, struck me as a racist one. i want to be clear when i say YOU did NOT strike me as racist. btw, its not as if someone has to be a racist, simply b/c they make a racist argument. i think people can make mistakes, and i think thats what you've done, but i don't think a mistake defines your identity. autopilot;358313 Wrote: > I think most people will realise i did not say Most Arabs (Iraqi's, BTW > not Arabs - i have not used the term Arab once) are incapable of > Democracy, no mater how you try and twist it. I clearly said that it > was incompatible with the current religious and cultural climate - > which no amount military might wont be able to overcome. iraq is arab. here is what you said: > Thats a fundamental mistake the Bush (and British) administration made, > they totally misunderstood the culture and religious fabric of that > part of the world (and why the thought of Sarah Palin, who thinks > Africa is a country was so scary) OR it's an excuse to exercise more > power and influence (i suspect a bit of both). and > But it will never happen, we dont have the power anyway even if it was > possible. We will never bomb away thousands of years of deeply routed > religion and culture, democracy is beautiful but totally incompatible > with that part of the world. Any idea that we have restored some real > and long term democracy to Iraq is a complete illusion. As evil as > Saddam was, Iraq was a secular nation and we knew that. Now we have > opened the flood gates to even more religious madness. Not only is > Democracy futile, but long term it will be worse now. now, when you say "the culture and religious fabric" and "it will never happen" and "that part of the world" just what are you talking about? clearly democracy is in turkey and other islamic countries. it seems to me your beef is with arabs, and religion, and culture. to say it will "never happen" is incredibly elitest. i call that bias, and it strikes me as racist, or whatever "flavor" of prejudice you want to call it. i don't agree with you and your summary judgment that it isn't possible in "that part of the world." i don't think its impossible for any people, anywhere. autopilot;358313 Wrote: > i did not say there is anything wrong with them. But their religion has > far more influence than our military could ever dream off, and most > Clerics and fundamentalists want Sharia law instating (arguably one of > the few good things Saddam had going for him was that he created a > secular nation - less religion in politics means less internal > conflict). the problem
Re: [slim] What an election.
MrSinatra;358324 Wrote: > wait a minute, you are claiming HUGO CHAVEZ as an example of a > democratic gov't??? are you kidding? > No, I'm not. He's an elected president. Several times re-elected. The vote has even been fair. I don't like him either, but he DOES have the support of his people. He did even get more votes than his opponent, a thing not every US president could claim. What is your standard for a democracy? That it's being run by the Republican party? This is EXACTLY the kind of imperialist attitude the US is being hated for in big parts of the world. > > and gimmie a break about germany, it has ZERO combat troops there, and > what little ones it does have there are in the rear with the gear. > That's a question of perspective. As I said, they are not allowed to go into combat as of the German constitution which allows for German troops to only go into combat under one of two conditions: Sanctioned by UN or when NATO goes to war. Both is not the case here. > > what exactly do you want? evidence of the armistice? evidence the UN > inventoried WMDs after the gulf war? > evidence of the WMD still existing in 2003. The US claimed to have it, it was a lie. > > does that mean when we do do things, when the rest of the world does > nothing, we should be criticized? > When it's against what the rest of the world wants: yes. > > america has asked germany to do more, they won't. > They can't. Read my last post. It's in the constitution. Without that we would not have gotten the unification. I admit the US were not the hardliners about this, that was France and the UK, but that's still how it is. > > so whats your solution? we had WMDs that saddam wouldn't demonstrate > he had detroyed, we have iran trying to build a nuke, we had oil for > food bribes... whats your solution? negotiations? > Having a plan before going to war would help a good deal, first of all. Iran is not trying to build a nuke, they are trying to play games with you. And you don't get it. What did you have to negotiate in Iraq? How about just leaving them alone? They did attack no one (in 2003). What's your solution: Stay there for another 150 years and get US soldiers killed by all sides? Have fun! Pull out and get a civil war? Cool plan you had. Cool democracy you got! > > of course we have a self interest in SOME of what we do, (we had NONE > in bosnia, your backyard), but frankly i could care less what the rest > of the world thinks, as the rest of the world rarely has a backbone or > can be counted on. where is the EU for georgia? > Where it belongs: at home. Please don't forget who started THAT war! > > the ukraine? > What's up with ukraine? No war there. > > moreover, this idea that we shouldn't do anything pro-active or else it > will ecruit more terrorists, is defeatist. sounds very neville > chamberlain to me. you don't cure cancer by appeasing it. you fight > it. Yep. But you will not cure brain cancer by amputating legs. -- pippin --- see iPeng at penguinlovesmusic.com pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
> moreover, this idea that we shouldn't do anything pro-active or else it > will ecruit more terrorists, is defeatist. sounds very neville > chamberlain to me. you don't cure cancer by appeasing it. you fight it Invading a country that had nothing to do with terrorism, killing the population and overthrowing there goverement, and occupying there country is not going to make things better. In fact it's highly likely Iraqi's will now target America, when they didn't before. "War on terror" is the single most stupidist thing I've heard. We know plenty about terrorism, although there hasen't been a single large number of deaths in one go like 9/11 the total number since it began is much higher. I don't think parliament would take too kindly if Thatcher ordered aerial bombardment over NI just to kill a few terrorists (and lots of innocents in the process) -- badbob badbob's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7358 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Themis;358284 Wrote: > Chile, is one of the many answers. > Oh, but perhaps "Democratic" is a synonym for "approved by the > Department of State" to you ? so could you explain exactly what we did to chile to fight their "democratic" gov't? -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 (primary) / SBR (secondary) / SBC - w/SC 7.3b - Win XP Pro SP3 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - D-Link DIR-655 MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
pippin;358281 Wrote: > Chavez, Allende > (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB123/chile.htm) wait a minute, you are claiming HUGO CHAVEZ as an example of a democratic gov't??? are you kidding? pippin;358281 Wrote: > Maybe. Makes you incredible and unpopular, though. That was my point. well, it shoudn't, and being popular isn't the point anyway. pippin;358281 Wrote: > You'll always find some people who are against anything. That's the > nature of a democracy, isn't it? Wasn't it that what you claim to > promote. > I am not against it and Germany does have troops there. They sometimes > even get killed. of course i promote it, my point is that not all positions are rational. and gimmie a break about germany, it has ZERO combat troops there, and what little ones it does have there are in the rear with the gear. if i'm wrong, show me. pippin;358281 Wrote: > http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/07/sprj.irq.un.transcript.blix/index.html > Show me a single piece of evidence for you claims be clear: what exactly do you want? evidence of the armistice? evidence the UN inventoried WMDs after the gulf war? pippin;358281 Wrote: > This may be true. But nobody forces the US to do anything. does that mean when we do do things, when the rest of the world does nothing, we should be criticized? how about looking at home first? pippin;358281 Wrote: > Well, as I said before, we do have troops there and they do die. > There still is some sentiment in this world about Germany going to war, > ask our British friends here in the thread about this. > And when we finally signed a peace treaty after WW2 (which actually > happened as late as 1990), we guaranteed to only go to arms under NATO > command, a proposition required, among others, by the US. Later that > was revised to also allow UN command. america has asked germany to do more, they won't. pippin;358281 Wrote: > That said, I never claimed that the US are only doing bad. I completely > acknowledge that its very often the US that has to bail out > international organizations when it's getting hot and I am also no > friend of the "soft" pressure of imposing economic sanctions on a > country because (for example in the case of Iraq) those can kill even > more people and only put pressure on the people, not the ones in power. so whats your solution? we had WMDs that saddam wouldn't demonstrate he had detroyed, we have iran trying to build a nuke, we had oil for food bribes... whats your solution? negotiations? pippin;358281 Wrote: > But claiming that the US is doing this for others is simply ridiculous > and also, I was talking about sentiment towards the US in the world. > You can't talk that away, it's there. Leave your country and you will > see it. You want to fight terrorism? Cool way to do it, believe me the > Iraq war was the single most efficient recruiting campaign they ever > had... of course we have a self interest in SOME of what we do, (we had NONE in bosnia, your backyard), but frankly i could care less what the rest of the world thinks, as the rest of the world rarely has a backbone or can be counted on. where is the EU for georgia? the ukraine? moreover, this idea that we shouldn't do anything pro-active or else it will ecruit more terrorists, is defeatist. sounds very neville chamberlain to me. you don't cure cancer by appeasing it. you fight it. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 (primary) / SBR (secondary) / SBC - w/SC 7.3b - Win XP Pro SP3 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - D-Link DIR-655 MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Themis;358277 Wrote: > You see, that's *exactly* the problem with USA foreign policy : it > decides in place of other nations what is good and what is bad for > them. That's why everybody detests it. ;) > We have our own choices and decisions, we don't need your intervention > on it. And no other country does. You must understand this. :) > > Things are getting better, though. Interventions diminish over time. > And I'm not at all amazed you don't know what Greece has a problem > with. Why should you ? Do you think I know what exactly the USA has a > problem with ? thats why i asked. still waiting for an answer. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 (primary) / SBR (secondary) / SBC - w/SC 7.3b - Win XP Pro SP3 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - D-Link DIR-655 MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Autopilot Wrote: > i also agree with the War in Afghanistan, as there is clear links to > terrorism and 9/11. > > MrSinatra Wrote: > > > > then where is nato? where is the combat forces of ANY other nation? > > > > we don't need cooks. we need combat forces. > > Wow, that's low. There are other nations troops -fighting- there, including a great deal of British who are in constant combat. There has been a lot of deaths, including a few from my home town. We are a very small nation so we have less troops there than the US, but fighting and fighting hard, they are not cook's - that's incredibly insulting to there memories and patronising. And no, you are clearly calling me racist. You are saying my POV is racist, so that makes me a racist by it's very definition. What i said does not deserve such a flaming and abuse, there can't be many more insulting things than that. Not only that, but you quote me as saying things i did not say. I think most people will realise i did not say Most Arabs (Iraqi's, BTW not Arabs - i have not used the term Arab once) are incapable of Democracy, no mater how you try and twist it. I clearly said that it was incompatible with the current religious and cultural climate. Their religion has far more influence than our military could ever dream off, and most Clerics want Sharia law. That added with many other factors such are pressure from Iran, Syria etc, and a great distrust of the US/UK and the fact that Democracy is not the average Iraq's first priory anyway (and, even given every horrible acts he committed, many things were better under Saddam in term of day to day life - a truth that is horrible to swallow i know) means that i think long term it will fail. What is happening there now is a puppet show and we will have to occupy and have a hand in the government indefinably to keep the fake democracy going. Because as soon as we leave the Sunni Vs Shia civil war will in escalate and the government will crumble in much less than a decade - probably to a shadow Iran/Syrian sponsored government, which will be worse than Saddam for all of us. I dont even blame the US/UK for all of this post invasion insanity, Iran needs to brought to justice to IMO for the supply weapons to insurgents, thus taking advantage of this mess and trying to make is worse and killing more of our troops. As for me saying "they don't know what democracy is" - well they have never experienced it, been able to study it as school or seen it on TV. So how do they really know what's it's like to live under a democratic government? thats not racist or patronising, thats just the way it is. And is this is just about democracy and/or human rights now, why Iraq? Why not north Korea, Saudi Arabia or China? Or maybe one of the many African countries tat are much much worse than Iraq was, they would be easy, why did we not help them? Whats wrong with the attitude that we might well fail anyway? Not planning for the worst is why this has gone so wrong. MrSintra, i hope you are right. Time will tell is some long term good can really come from this, neither of us can predict the future, but i'm 99% sure we are losing. I hope a am wrong, and regardless of whats happened to take us down this road, we all must agree what we want to see is the safe return of our troops and a good life for the Iraq's who asked for none of this. Anyway, that all i think i will say, but due to the fact that i have had quotes made up and been called racist and also had other very personal and insults remarks made i have reported this to the Mods. -- autopilot *Lounge :* Squeezebox Classic -> Cambridge Audio Azur 640a -> Mission 701's. *Bedroom :* Squeezebox Receiver -> Trends TA10.1 Class-T -> Kef Cresta 1's *Office :* Softsqueeze -> Logitech Active 5.1's. *Kitchen :* Squeezebox Boom -coming soon- *Roaming : * Squeezebox Controller -> Logitech mm28 portable speakers / Shure E2c's *Controllers :* Squeezebox Controller x 2 + Logitech Harmony one *Server :* SC7.3b (Vista 64) + AlienBBC, iPlayer & MusicIP headless. 'LAST.FM' (http://www.last.fm/user/domrevans/) autopilot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1763 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
MrSinatra;358268 Wrote: > i would point out that the USA had to fix the problems in europes > backyard in bosnia, and we get little credit for that. where is nato > in afghanistan? > > also, i just want to correct one thing above, the USA absolutely did > NOT sell saddam WMDs. others may have, but we knew he had them b/c the > UN found them and inventoried them for ~6years after the 91 gulf war. Sadly, we did worse. We sold Saddam the technology to do so on his own. Then helped him with technical expertise and know how to develop these very chemical and biological weapons. We even helped him jump start his nuclear program in the same manner. This was during the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" love affair with Saddam. I guess it all made senseat the time. :( -- toby10 toby10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12553 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Is there a moderator of this form? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Themis Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 5:35 PM To: discuss@lists.slimdevices.com Subject: Re: [slim] What an election. MrSinatra;358267 Wrote: > > give me an example of a "Democratic" gov't we opposed simply b/c it > leaned left? Chile, is one of the many answers. Oh, but perhaps "Democratic" is a synonym for "approved by the Department of State" to you ? -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1777 - Release Date: 11/9/2008 9:53 AM ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Update: The word Liberal worked as an insult or a negative 8 yrs ago. It doesn't now. NeoCon I believe is the new replacement. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
MrSinatra;358267 Wrote: > > give me an example of a "Democratic" gov't we opposed simply b/c it > leaned left? Chile, is one of the many answers. Oh, but perhaps "Democratic" is a synonym for "approved by the Department of State" to you ? -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
MrSinatra;358267 Wrote: > > give me an example of a "Democratic" gov't we opposed simply b/c it > leaned left? > Chavez, Allende (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB123/chile.htm) > > as to saddam, he didn't lean left or right, he was a dictator we used > during the cold war. sometimes you have to make hard choices. > Maybe. Makes you incredible and unpopular, though. That was my point. > > that isn't true. i bet there are people in this very thread who are > against us being there. > You'll always find some people who are against anything. That's the nature of a democracy, isn't it? Wasn't it that what you claim to promote. I am not against it and Germany does have troops there. They sometimes even get killed. > > again, not true. i keep saying it and you keep ignoring it. > armistice, 91. > the WMDs were inventoried by the UN. they are still unaccounted for > today. > http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/07/sprj.irq.un.transcript.blix/index.html Show me a single piece of evidence for you claims > > maybe we wouldn't have to talk or act so much if the other countries of > the world did ANYTHING. > This may be true. But nobody forces the US to do anything. > > tell me, what is Germany doing in afghanistan? answer, BALKING. nada, > nothing, very very little, and ZERO in the combat zones. Well, as I said before, we do have troops there and they do die. There still is some sentiment in this world about Germany going to war, ask our British friends here in the thread about this. And when we finally signed a peace treaty after WW2 (which actually happened as late as 1990), we guaranteed to only go to arms under NATO command, a proposition required, among others, by the US. Later that was revised to also allow UN command. That said, I never claimed that the US are only doing bad. I completely acknowledge that its very often the US that has to bail out international organizations when it's getting hot and I am also no friend of the "soft" pressure of imposing economic sanctions on a country because (for example in the case of Iraq) those can kill even more people and only put pressure on the people, not the ones in power. But claiming that the US is doing this for others is simply ridiculous and also, I was talking about sentiment towards the US in the world. You can't talk that away, it's there. Leave your country and you will see it. You want to fight terrorism? Cool way to do it, believe me the Iraq war was the single most efficient recruiting campaign they ever had... -- pippin --- see iPeng at penguinlovesmusic.com pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
MrSinatra;358273 Wrote: > i would like to know what greece has a problem with, especially > considering that without us, you'd have been communist for 60 years You see, that's *exactly* the problem with USA foreign policy : it decides in place of other nations what is good and what is bad for them. That's why everybody detests it. ;) We have our own choices and decisions, we don't need your intervention on it. And no other country does. You must understand this. :) -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Themis;358203 Wrote: > In Greece we hate American foreign policies since WW2. We've always > found them unfair, anti-democratic, and against simple peoples' > interests everywhere in the world. And more particularly in our (greek) > neighborhood. > > Nevertheless, we have a big respect for American people, and once more > they proved to be awesome ! Americans really deserve a great applause > for their mutual solidarity : a great nation, indeed. i would like to know what greece has a problem with, especially considering that without us, you'd have been communist for 60 years. and please, don't cite our involvement with turkey. greece and the turks problems are your own, not ours. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 (primary) / SBR (secondary) / SBC - w/SC 7.3b - Win XP Pro SP3 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - D-Link DIR-655 MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
autopilot;358186 Wrote: > Well first off its great to have a conversation with real people, rather > than the nonsense the press on both sides of the pond pumps out. 10 > pages in and people, although obviously disagreeing have having > differing points of view, have put their points across in a non > personal and intelligent way. agreed. :) autopilot;358186 Wrote: > However, i feel been called "racist" is very unfair. except i never called YOU racist. i don't believe you are racist. i called your POV on the subject, and your argument racist, and it is. when you say essentially that: "the arabs aren't capable of democracy." thats a racist POV imo. it sounds very similar to what the white south africans said about why they had to have apartheid. i'm sorry if this offends you, but its your words, not mine. autopilot;358186 Wrote: > MrSinatra - i do agree with a lot of what you are saying, but you are > clearly very patriotic and see things though rose tinted glasses. You > have the same one sided naive views that have caused this to become > such a disaster and you have obviously completely fallen for the > propaganda our governments have bombarded us with. thats your opinion, not mine. i think you have fallen for what the left says. autopilot;358186 Wrote: > First off, you say i am racist for saying "Arabs are incapable of > democracy", which i did not even say. I said that it's not compatible > and the changes required won't be delivered via a badly conceived > military campaign. i stand by what i said. i quoted you and people can decide if what i said fits or not. i think you are backtracking, and frankly, saying "its not compatible" now isn't really changing what you said or meant. autopilot;358186 Wrote: > No matter what the Iraqi citizens say when they are wheeled in front of > the camera's from the US public, most don't care about democracy, > especially if it means some much pain and death. They dont even know > what it is, they just want clean water, heath care, food on their > tables and their children to stop dying from stray missiles and from > the terrorism (which barely existed under Saddam) the political vacuum > the invasion caused. All of these things they had before the invasion. > And thats not even accounting for the religious element - the type of > Islamic tradition is unfortunately very un-democratic - you would have > get some of the most deeply religious people to radically change their > religious views too. "they don't even know what it is." am i only in seeing the racist overtones here? sorry, but what you just wrote is INCREDIBLY patronizing and misguided. al-sistiani, (-sp?) the leading cleric there, supports the move to democracy. all of islam is not opposed to it you know. there are islamic democracies, they do exist. autopilot;358186 Wrote: > And all thats before the PR disaster after PR disaster. For example, the > troops raced to protect the Oil wells and put much effort into this. > However, they made no attempt to protect the hospitals being attacked > and robbed. Not just hospitals, but the Baghdad museum was looted and > virtually destroyed - with many of the worlds most precious and ancient > artefacts were lost forever. this makes me laugh. so we, as an invading military force, needed to be concerned with playing security guard to hospitals and mueseums and zoos? first of all, the mueseum story is mostly untrue. yes it was looted, but something like 95% of the stuff was recovered. a lot of it was people trying to protect it who always planned to return it. secondly, thats not OUR problem. we had objectives that had to be met. we could not put everything under one priority. and maybe we could have done more, if the world would have helped. autopilot;358186 Wrote: > Yet the occupying forces did nothing. How does this looks to the average > Iraqi? It was clear as day that the Oil was the number 1 priority. You > say acknowledging this fact, and countless others, is "obnoxious and > vapid". Thats just they way it is, our governments have proved this > time after time. Reason 1,001 why they want us out yesterday and dont > care about democracy much. now you are conflating issues. it is obnoxious and vapid to say that bush et al did this for personal gain. it is not at all erroneous however, to say oil was a huge reason we were there, and a huge objective for protection. the reason being that in 91 saddam LIT HIS OWN WELLS on fire, and this time we didn't want that to happen so that we could get revenue flowing to the iraqis as quickly as possible. we wanted to be sure there was revenue coming in to give them an incentive to rally around a new democratic gov't. autopilot;358186 Wrote: > Then Bush goes as says he invaded Iraq because he was told to by God. > Apart from the fact this is clearly a desperate attempt to gain support > from the regions far right in the US and UK, it effectively told > everyone he had religious m
Re: [slim] What an election.
toby10;358156 Wrote: > Yup. And the reason the UN had 17 resolutions against Iraq is because > Iraq violated the first 16. We know he had WMD's cuz we (the US) and > France and Germany and Russia (and god knows who else) sold them to > Iraq. The question is: what happened to these WMD's. I'm sure there > are other political reasons we are there now, just saying. > > Absolutely correct about the UN, it's a joke. The corruption, abuses > and "do nothing attitude" until it's far too late is sickening. > Usually the UN takes no real action to protect those it claims to > benefit. The states that the UN is shaking it's finger at KNOWS the UN > won't really back it up with anything, so these rogue states just ignore > the UN's threats. But when they DO take action, where do they turn? > The UN is nothing but a tea party without the US to backup it's > decisions, the few times the UN has the balls to ask us to do so. > > The world wants to sleep under our blanket and expects us to babysit > the entire planet. But then they do nothing but complain how we go > about this and point out every mistep. Politically and militarily > we've MORE than made our share of mistakes, but on par we've done far > more good than bad. Don't like how we go about it? Go fix it > yourselves, with your blood and money, show us how it's done.:) i would point out that the USA had to fix the problems in europes backyard in bosnia, and we get little credit for that. where is nato in afghanistan? also, i just want to correct one thing above, the USA absolutely did NOT sell saddam WMDs. others may have, but we knew he had them b/c the UN found them and inventoried them for ~6years after the 91 gulf war. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 (primary) / SBR (secondary) / SBC - w/SC 7.3b - Win XP Pro SP3 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - D-Link DIR-655 MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
pippin;358132 Wrote: > Well, when you betray the very ideals you claim to promote and lie about > your motivations for a war, what do you expect? > > Face it, US foreign policy has been largely opportunistic after WW2. thats nonsense. we defeated communism, and protected you, wherever you are. pippin;358132 Wrote: > It had no problem to fight democratically elected governments when they > leaned to the left and to support even the ugliest dictators when they > leaned to the right. In the case of Saddam, George Bush sen. did this > even personally. give me an example of a "Democratic" gov't we opposed simply b/c it leaned left? as to saddam, he didn't lean left or right, he was a dictator we used during the cold war. sometimes you have to make hard choices. pippin;358132 Wrote: > When the US went to war in Afghanistan, it had the entire world behind > it because everybody understood why they fought, they had a plan plus > local support. that isn't true. i bet there are people in this very thread who are against us being there. code pink calls it an "illegal war." there is opposition to it, and part of it comes from the lack of recognition that the gov't there (taliban) and the terrorists there were more than simpatico. pippin;358132 Wrote: > In Iraq the Motivation was fake (Saddam while being one of those ugly > dictators had nothing to do with islamist terrorism), the legal > groundwork was made up (WMD) and the person they sought to install as > an interim president was dubious at best. again, not true. i keep saying it and you keep ignoring it. armistice, 91. the WMDs were inventoried by the UN. they are still unaccounted for today. if 9/11 had not happened, i don't think we would have worried that much about those WMDs. but it did and so bush took us in. i'm not saying i would have done that, but i can understand why he did. not finding them however is hardly surprising, and certainly doesn't make it "illegal." pippin;358132 Wrote: > Act as you talk and you get respect, do the opposite and you don't. It's > actually that simple. maybe we wouldn't have to talk or act so much if the other countries of the world did ANYTHING. tell me, what is Germany doing in afghanistan? answer, BALKING. nada, nothing, very very little, and ZERO in the combat zones. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 (primary) / SBR (secondary) / SBC - w/SC 7.3b - Win XP Pro SP3 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - D-Link DIR-655 MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
> > Nevertheless, we have a big respect for American people, and once more > they proved to be awesome ! Americans really deserve a great applause > for their mutual solidarity : a great nation, indeed. absolutly! -- autopilot *Lounge :* Squeezebox Classic -> Cambridge Audio Azur 640a -> Mission 701's. *Bedroom :* Squeezebox Receiver -> Trends TA10.1 Class-T -> Kef Cresta 1's *Office :* Softsqueeze -> Logitech Active 5.1's. *Kitchen :* Squeezebox Boom -coming soon- *Roaming : * Squeezebox Controller -> Logitech mm28 portable speakers / Shure E2c's *Controllers :* Squeezebox Controller x 2 + Logitech Harmony one *Server :* SC7.3b (Vista 64) + AlienBBC, iPlayer & MusicIP headless. 'LAST.FM' (http://www.last.fm/user/domrevans/) autopilot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1763 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
In Greece we hate American foreign policies since WW2. We've always found them unfair, anti-democratic, and against simple peoples' interests everywhere in the world. And more particularly in our (greek) neighborhood. Nevertheless, we have a big respect for American people, and once more they proved to be awesome ! Americans really deserve a great applause for their mutual solidarity : a great nation, indeed. -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
"I promised you change you can believe in, I did not promise you change you can actually see." He added: "You believe in Jesus don't you? Right, but have you ever seen Jesus? Exactly. Just making sure we're all on the same page." +---+ |Filename: barob99.jpg | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6195| +---+ -- amcluesent amcluesent's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10286 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Well first off its great to have a conversation with real people, rather than the nonsense the press on both sides of the pond pumps out. 10 pages in and people, although obviously disagreeing have having differing points of view, have put their points across in a non personal and intelligent way. However, i feel been called "racist" is very unfair. MrSinatra - i do agree with a lot of what you are saying, but you are clearly very patriotic and see things though rose tinted glasses. You have the same one sided naive views that have caused this to become such a disaster and you have obviously completely fallen for the propaganda out government have bombarded us with. First off, you say i am racist for saying "Arabs are incapable of democracy", which i did not even say. I said that it won't be delivered via a badly conceived military campaign. No matter what the Iraqi citizens say when they are wheeled in front of the camera's from the US public, most don't care about democracy, especially if it means some much pain and death. They dont even know what it is, they just want clean water, heath care, food on their tables and their children to stop dying from stray missiles from the political vacuum the invasion caused. All of these things they had before the invasion. And thats not even accounting for the religious element - the type of Islamic tradition is unfortunately very un-democratic - you would have get some of the most deeply religious people to radically change their religious views too. And all thats before the PR disaster after PR disaster. For example, the troops raced to protect the Oil wells and put much effort into this. However, they made no attempt to protect the hospitals being attacked and robbed. Not just hospitals, but the Baghdad museum was looted and virtually destroyed - with many of the worlds most precious and ancient artefacts were lost forever. Yet the occupying forces did nothing. How does this looks to the average Iraqi? It was clear as day that the Oil was the number 1 priority. You say acknowledging this fact, and countless others, is "obnoxious and vapid". That trust they way it is, our governments have proved this time after time. Reason 1,001 why they want us out yesterday and dont care about democracy much. Then Bush goes as says he invaded Iraq because he was told to by God. Apart from the fact this is clearly a desperate attempt to gain support from the regions far right in the US and UK, it effectively told everyone he had religious motivations. That was a bad thing to say even by Bush's standards - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa You say the world is ungrateful for the US's actions. This is simply not true and used as an excuse. Yes, rightly or wrongly, the US has been viewed as arrogant and self serving by some people, but the vast majority of the world has always been very good friends with the US. It's not until the Iraq war (not the previous one where Iraq invaded another country) where even people with the most historically supportive of the US have said this is all wrong this time. Whether this is illegal or not, i strongly believe we have fallen very far from the moral high ground. I completely agree about the UN, complete waste of time. i also agree that if any nation does not want to listen and comply they should probably leave. Will it be a failure in the end? Well what exactly where the goals then? Who can say, the objectives have changed so much. Anything is possible when you keep moving the goal posts. but will Iraq become a lasting and stable democracy? not in our wildest dreams. I felt i had to respond to those very personal and extensively offensive accusations. Lets keep this civil and grown up please. -- autopilot *Lounge :* Squeezebox Classic -> Cambridge Audio Azur 640a -> Mission 701's. *Bedroom :* Squeezebox Receiver -> Trends TA10.1 Class-T -> Kef Cresta 1's *Office :* Softsqueeze -> Logitech Active 5.1's. *Kitchen :* Squeezebox Boom -coming soon- *Roaming : * Squeezebox Controller -> Logitech mm28 portable speakers / Shure E2c's *Controllers :* Squeezebox Controller x 2 + Logitech Harmony one *Server :* SC7.3b (Vista 64) + AlienBBC, iPlayer & MusicIP headless. 'LAST.FM' (http://www.last.fm/user/domrevans/) autopilot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1763 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
MrSinatra;358082 Wrote: > that just isn't true. > > as i said earlier, iraq broke the terms of the 91 armistice, that gave > us the right to take military action, and there is no question the gulf > war was legal. and we also had resolution 1441 this time. > > i'm not sure what part of the UN charter you are citing that refutes > what i just said. > > the idea that the UN decides what is and isn't illegal is a joke > anyway. the UN is made up of dictators and despots, is a surreal > place, and other than humanitarian efforts is totally ineffectual, (oil > for food scandal, UN peacekeepers raping children epidemic). i have > very little regard for it. > > the USA is the bulwark of freedom in the world, and gets very little > credit for it. we beat fascism, we beat communism, and we will beat > terrorism, and we do it while all the "liberal" nations of the world > bemoan us, and don't carry their fair share either diplomatically, > militarily or finanacially. > > frankly, i'm tired of the rest of the world getting a free ride off our > backs, and showing such little gratitude. > > i refuse to sit here worried about removing a brutal dictator like > saddam, while very same people who complain about that, want us to > invade darfur. Yup. And the reason the UN had 17 resolutions against Iraq is because Iraq violated the first 16. We know he had WMD's cuz we (the US) and France and Germany and Russia (and god knows who else) sold them to Iraq. The question is: what happened to these WMD's. I'm sure there are other political reasons we are there now, just saying. Absolutely correct about the UN, it's a joke. The corruption, abuses and "do nothing attitude" until it's far too late is sickening. Usually the UN takes no real action to protect those it claims to benefit. The states that the UN is shaking it's finger at KNOWS the UN won't really back it up with anything, so these rogue states just ignore the UN's threats. But when they DO take action, where do they turn? The UN is nothing but a tea party without the US to backup it's decisions, the few times the UN has the balls to ask us to do so. The world wants to sleep under our blanket and expects us to babysit the entire planet. But then they do nothing but complain how we go about this and point out every mistep. Politically and militarily we've MORE than made our share of mistakes, but on par we've done far more good than bad. Don't like how we go about it? Go fix it yourselves, with your blood and money, show us how it's done.:) -- toby10 toby10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12553 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
MrSinatra;358082 Wrote: > > the USA is the bulwark of freedom in the world, and gets very little > credit for it. Well, when you betray the very ideals you claim to promote and lie about your motivations for a war, what do you expect? Face it, US foreign policy has been largely opportunistic after WW2. It had no problem to fight democratically elected governments when they leaned to the left and to support even the ugliest dictators when they leaned to the right. In the case of Saddam, George Bush sen. did this even personally. When the US went to war in Afghanistan, it had the entire worls behind it because everybody understood why they fought, they had a plan plus local support. In Iraq the Motivation was fake (Saddam while being one of those ugly dictators had nothing to do with islamist terrorism), the legal groundwork was made up (WMD) and the person they seeked to install as an interim president was dubious at best. Act as you talk and you get respect, do the opposite and you don't. It's actually that simple. -- pippin --- see iPeng at penguinlovesmusic.com pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
autopilot;357826 Wrote: > Well there is a thing called the geneva convention, but you have a good > point regarding international law and it's abstractness. However, there > is a difference when you start a war on a country that has not attacked > you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions i'm no expert, but which one there supports your point? as far as i can tell, they are about rules of warfare conduct, not how you start one. in any case... am i to take it from your comment that you consider invading afghanistan illegal as well? what about the first gulf war? in both cases, neither directly attacked the USA. are you calling those illegal as well? autopilot;357826 Wrote: > Two wrongs dont make a right, that does not even come close to > justifying the death of our friends fellow countrymen. that does not address my point at all. you said it was an illegal war. i just proved it wasn't. when saddam broke the terms of the armistice, we had all the legal justification any reasonable entity needs to take further military action. thats the whole point of signing an armistice, you are compelled to comply or face consequences. you are free to say "it wasn't worth it" but you can't credibly say it was illegal. personally, i'm not saying its what i would have done, but i can see the logic behind it. the armistice compelled saddam to pro-actively demonstrate destroing his WMDs that the UN had inventoried in the years after 91 and he did not do so. it was not on us to prove he had them, it was on him to prove he didn't, by destroying them in from of the UN. in fact, the WMDs are still today unaccounted for. this is the UNs assessment, not the USAs. given that saddam simply wouldn't do that, and since it was POST 9/11, i can see why it came to a head when it did. autopilot;357826 Wrote: > Bit of both, but when i say 'Bush' i also mean the people behind him who > have the real control. Are you saying that US companies, including ones > that the Bush administration with huge stakes, did not stand to make a > lot of cash? sorry, i consider this whole bit far left loony stuff. the whole idea that bush did this for personal gain is just obnoxious and vapid. not to mention the inherent contradiction of "a little bit of both." autopilot;357826 Wrote: > Is it?! We are still at war, no? depends what you mean. i would say we are in the final stages of an occupation, (liberation) not war in any traditional sense. we are at war in afghanistan still, and with terrorism still. i am confident iraq will emerge a stable democracy, and for that i am grateful and proud. autopilot;357826 Wrote: > It would be, but as lovely as it sounds, it wont ever happen. Even if > it means that another 1,000,000 people must die before we realise. not only is this typical defeatism of the left, but its wrong. i think in america, even the majorityof obama voters think that iraq will not end a failure. i actually think that helped elect him, if iraq had been more volatile, that probably would have helped mccain. autopilot;357826 Wrote: > Thats a fundamental mistake the Bush (and British) administration made, > they totally misunderstood the culture and religious fabric of that > part of the world (and why the thought of Sarah Palin, who thinks > Africa is a country was so scary) -OR- it's an excuse to exercise more > power and influence (i suspect a bit of both). the palin thing isn't true, fyi. i don't want to get knee deep in it, but 1. it was unnamed sources, and 2. she had previous dealings with africa via charities so there is no way it could be true. in any case... i love how the "liberal" left who claims to be about non-discrimination and anti-prejudice, has no problem saying this racist argument, essentially that arabs are incapable of democracy. thats really despicable. autopilot;357826 Wrote: > But it will never happen, we dont have the power anyway even if it was > possible. We will never bomb away thousands of years of deeply routed > religion and culture, democracy is beautiful but totally incompatible > with that part of the world. Any idea that we have restored some real > and long term democracy to Iraq is a complete illusion. As evil as > Saddam was, Iraq was a secular nation and we knew that. Now we have > opened the flood gates to even more religious madness. Not only is > Democracy futile, but long term it will be worse now. not only is this a racist pov imo, but it also ignores the facts on the ground. how many elections do they have to have before you admit you're wrong? -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 (primary) / SBR (secondary) / SBC - w/SC 7.3b - Win XP Pro SP3 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - D-Link DIR-655 MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___
Re: [slim] What an election.
CatBus;357979 Wrote: > That was probably a hypothetical question, but here's a real although > greatly simplified answer. "International law" is comprised of > treaties signed by various countries around the world. Basically if a > country signs a treaty promising not do perform action X, and then they > perform action X anyway, then action X is a violation of the treaty, and > illegal. I don't like the term "international law" myself because it > creates the impression that this law is being imposed on nations from > some outside entity like the UN, and that's not really true. > > The UN Charter, for example, is actually a treaty (which the US has > signed), and part of that treaty is that member states agree not to > engage in military aggression without first getting UN approval. So to > answer your questions, defensive wars are one sort of legal war. If > Iraq attacked the US, the US would be totally within their rights to > fight back. So US military action in that hypothetical war would be > legal and Iraqi military action would be illegal, because the Iraqis > were the aggressors. Now, if Iraq managed to convince the UN Security > Council that the US posed a threat to the world community, or presented > some sort of looming humanitarian disaster, they could attack the US > once they had a UN resolution authorizing the attack, and that would > also be legal. There are some other cases involving coming to the aid > of an ally that's been attacked, etc, but that's the general gist of > it. > > So with regard to the most recent war between the US and Iraq, only > half of that war was truly illegal. The US attack was not authorized > by the UN, and therefore violated a treaty and was illegal. The > Iraqis, however, were (and still are) fully within their rights to > defend their country against the country that invaded them. This is > why Kofi Annan, the current US-backed Secretary General of the UN, > considered the invasion to be illegal. Hope that helps. > > Now, there are some other angles on this, such as the complete lack of > any consistent enforcement mechanism--which leads to justifiable > accusations of case-by-case hypocrisy. We've also gotten UN approval > in the past (for the Korean War) when it wasn't necessary, creating an > impression that UN approval is needed for all wars (it isn't). There > are also many conservatives who think the US should withdraw from the > UN, and if that were the case then maybe we could attack whoever we > wanted legally (I doubt it--there are still lots of treaties out > there). > > So in simplified terms, the US broke a treaty. News at 11 ;) that just isn't true. as i said earlier, iraq broke the terms of the 91 armistice, that gave us the right to take military action, and there is no question the gulf war was legal. and we also had resolution 1441 this time. i'm not sure what part of the UN charter you are citing that refutes what i just said. the idea that the UN decides what is and isn't illegal is a joke anyway. the UN is made up of dictators and despots, is a surreal place, and other than humanitarian efforts is totally ineffectual, (oil for food scandal, UN peacekeepers raping children epidemic). i have very little regard for it. the USA is the bulwark of freedom in the world, and gets very little credit for it. we beat fascism, we beat communism, and we will beat terrorism, and we do it while all the "liberal" nations of the world bemoan us, and don't carry their fair share either diplomatically, militarily or finanacially. frankly, i'm tired of the rest of the world getting a free ride off our backs, and showing such little gratitude. i refuse to sit here worried about removing a brutal dictator like saddam, while very same people who complain about that, want us to invade darfur. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 (primary) / SBR (secondary) / SBC - w/SC 7.3b - Win XP Pro SP3 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - D-Link DIR-655 MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
NFLnut;357556 Wrote: > Douglas McArthur. What! Not Eisenhower... :-) -- Howard Passman .and still waiting for extra cradles.. Howard Passman's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16674 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
MrSinatra;357815 Wrote: > tell me, whats a "legal" war? That was probably a hypothetical question, but here's a real although greatly simplified answer. "International law" is comprised of treaties signed by various countries around the world. Basically if a country signs a treaty promising not do perform action X, and then they perform action X anyway, then action X is a violation of the treaty, and illegal. I don't like the term "international law" myself because it creates the impression that this law is being imposed on nations from some outside entity like the UN, and that's not really true. The UN Charter, for example, is actually a treaty (which the US has signed), and part of that treaty is that member states agree not to engage in military aggression without first getting UN approval. So to answer your questions, defensive wars are one sort of legal war. If Iraq attacked the US, the US would be totally within their rights to fight back. So US military action in that hypothetical war would be legal and Iraqi military action would be illegal, because the Iraqis were the aggressors. Now, if Iraq managed to convince the UN Security Council that the US posed a threat to the world community, or presented some sort of looming humanitarian disaster, they could attack the US once they had a UN resolution authorizing the attack, and that would also be legal. There are some other cases involving coming to the aid of an ally that's been attacked, etc, but that's the general gist of it. So with regard to the most recent war between the US and Iraq, only half of that war was truly illegal. The US attack was not authorized by the UN, and therefore violated a treaty and was illegal. The Iraqis, however, were (and still are) fully within their rights to defend their country against the country that invaded them. This if why Kofi Annan, the current US-backed Secretary General of the UN, considered the invasion to be illegal. Hope that helps. Now, there are some other angles on this, such as the complete lack of any consistent enforcement mechanism--which leads to justifiable accusations of case-by-case hypocrisy. We've also gotten UN approval in the past (for the Korean War) when it wasn't necessary, creating an impression that UN approval is needed for all wars (it isn't). There are also many conservatives who think the US should withdraw from the UN, and if that were the case then maybe we could attack whoever we wanted legally (I doubt it--there are still lots of treaties out there). So in simplified terms, the US broke a treaty. News at 11 ;) -- CatBus CatBus's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Pippin, Thanks again for your comments. Perhaps to surprise you, I was an Obama supporter and I am very happy about his victory. I worry a bit that his party's hardliners not have too much of an influence, but I trust his judgement at the helm. Also, perhaps to surprise you, I read that despite the very apparent surge of interest in things political in this election, ultimate voter turnout was like no more than a percentage point or so higher than the last presidential election. So, more noise, but not more people. Sie sind ein Berliner? I was in Berlin last year, for the first time since the wall came down (believe it or not). The changes are breathtaking. I realize a lot of money has been spent because of the return of the capital from Bonn, and as part of the reintegration of the East. But a lovely city with many nice people. And if English is not your native language, I must comment that your English is awesome. Thanks to everyone for an interesting conversation and change of pace. -- Goodsounds Goodsounds's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
pippin;357823 Wrote: > as I said, it was the impression I got. I am very well aware that > impressions don't always fit reality in every detail. Here in Berlin, > for example, they "solved" the problem of too many homeless people > lurking around in public places by simply pushing them out of the city > center. They are still there, you just don't see them. US cities may > have had similar strategies. let me just point to you a book called "Bias" by Bernard Goldberg. one of the things he talks about is the bias of news coverage. in the 80's and during bush Sr term, the press OBSESSED with the homeless issue. it was ridiculous really. and then something miraculous happened, clinton solved the homeless issue! except that, he didn't. the stats bear it out, he did NOTHING for the homeless, zilch, zero. but the press suddenly decided, after 10+ years it wasn't an issue anymore, so you, [meaning anyone] would think the issue was solved. it wasn't. that an example of bias in our media, and i'd argue, its liberal in origin. again, the facts are documented in the book. we also btw, try to "zone" homeless out of certain areas. the homeless in america are by in large not economic victims, but drug/alcohol related, and / or mentally ill. the liberals, way back when in their wisdom, fought to have the state release the mentally ill onto the streets if they weren't a danger to anyone. big mistake. pippin;357823 Wrote: > On th other hand: > 1. Your economic argument sounds a bit one-sided to me. It's true that > the 90s saw a steady economic upturn but so did the 80s and obviously > you would readily attribute this to the policies of the Reagan > administration instead of the dramatically declining oil price after > the energy crisis of the 70s. I do believe that there is such thing as > good or bad economic policy and you even though you typically don't see > the effect of that for the first 2-3 years you DO see it within eight > years. come on... yes, cheaper oil helped, but cutting tax rates from 70% to 28% for the highest bracket was the real engine of change, as was cuttng capital gains and all the rest of it. pippin;357823 Wrote: > it looks like a pretty clear vote in favor of a change from how it is > now. For the moment, I think that's a pretty big chance! too bad it seems like its going to be a change to socialism. the problem is we don't even know if thats the plan. we heard "change" for 2 years, we never heard change to what, how, when, or why. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 (primary) / SBR (secondary) / SBC - w/SC 7.3b - Win XP Pro SP3 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - D-Link DIR-655 MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
MrSinatra;357815 Wrote: > > tell me, whats a "legal" war? Well there is a thing called the geneva convention, but you have a good point regarding international law and it's abstractness. However, there is a difference when you start a war on a country that has not attacked you. MrSinatra;357815 Wrote: > > saddam broke the terms of the 91 armistice, that made what we did > "legal" at least in terms of the armistice. Two wrongs dont make a right. MrSinatra;357815 Wrote: > > as to the wmds, which is it? is bush a master-criminal villain who > duped the world for his own gain, or is he the idiot who can't speak > properly and bumbled it all? > Bit of both, but when i say 'Bush' i also mean the people behind him who have the real control. Are you saying that US companies, including ones that the Bush administration with huge stakes, did not stand to make a lot of cash? MrSinatra;357815 Wrote: > > frankly, its all rather moot now. > Is it?! We are still at war, no? MrSinatra;357815 Wrote: > whatever anyone thought, getting rid of saddam is a great thing and > establishing a democracy in the arab world, the first one at that, is > also a great thing. > It would be, but as lovely as it sounds, it wont ever happen. Even if it means that another 1,000,000 people must die before we realise. Thats a fundamental mistake the Bush (and British) administration made, they totally misunderstood the culture and religious fabric of that part of the world (and why the thought of Sarah Palin, who thinks Africa is a country was so scary) OR it's an excuse to excursive more power and influence (i suspect a bit of both). But it will never happen. We will never bomb away thousands of years of deeply routed religion and culture, democracy is beautiful but totally incompatible with that part of the world. Any idea that we have restored some real and long term democracy to Iraq is a complete illusion. -- autopilot *Lounge :* Squeezebox Classic -> Cambridge Audio Azur 640a -> Mission 701's. *Bedroom :* Squeezebox Receiver -> Trends TA10.1 Class-T -> Kef Cresta 1's *Office :* Softsqueeze -> Logitech Active 5.1's. *Kitchen :* Squeezebox Boom -coming soon- *Roaming : * Squeezebox Controller -> Logitech mm28 portable speakers / Shure E2c's *Controllers :* Squeezebox Controller x 2 + Logitech Harmony one *Server :* SC7.3b (Vista 64) + AlienBBC, iPlayer & MusicIP headless. 'LAST.FM' (http://www.last.fm/user/domrevans/) autopilot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1763 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Goodsounds;357768 Wrote: > Hi Pippin, > > I found your outsider's perspectives interesting - thanks for sharing > them. > > Much of the 90s coincided with the upstroke of the business cycle. > Especially the second half, which also included the dot com bubble. > Little or none of this is affected by politics or governmental > policies, either on the way up or on the way down. > > A fair amount of public infrastructure-type things apparent to a > visitor are funded by state and local authorities rather than the > federal government. In the US, unlike in much of Europe, the majority > of local governmental revenue is raised locally, not as an > apportionment of federal funds, and it tends to have pieces that are > difficult to change - real property tax, sales tax, etc. In boom times, > receipts (and so expenditures) swell. When growth slows (as we've had > since the turn of the century), the opposite happens, which is why > state and local budgets have been under such pressure in recent years. > Most are not able to run deficits, as the federal government can. It's > also clear that a lot of federal money has been wasted over the last 6 > years. > > I agree with you, US infrastructure sucks compared to that in most > European countries. On the other hand, our tax burden is rather lower. > People are generally unenthusiastic about tax increases, so you get > what you pay for. > > As far as moods go, a lot of that is dependent upon whom you speak to. > Most of my friends and associates are middle class, still employed, and > not too radically impacted by recent travails in our economy. There will > be more problems, job reductions, etc., so things will probably get > worse before they get better, but overall, I do not sense a heavy mood > among people I know. Of course, none of them have lost a house or have > been significantly bitten by recent problems, other than the downturn in > the stock market. People who have suffered big losses, different story. Goodsounds, as I said, it was the impression I got. I am very well aware that impressions don't always fit reality in every detail. Here in Berlin, for example, the "solved" the problem of too many homeless people lurking around in public places by simply pushing them out of the city center. They are still there, you just don't see them. US cities may have had similar strategies. On th other hand: 1. Your economic argument sounds a bit one-sided to me. It's true that the 90s saw a steady economic upturn but so did the 80s and obviously you would readily attribute this to the policies of the Reagan administration instead of the dramatically declining oil price after the energy crisis of the 70s. I do believe that there is such thing as good or bad economic policy and you even though you typically don't see the effect of that for the first 2-3 years you DO see it within eight years. 2. What I see when talking to Americans recently (note: my last visit was BEFORE the LATEST financial crash), is that there is a lot of enthusiasm for politics driven by the impression that something has to change. People seem to be willing to vote (I heard this election had the highest participation rate for over 40 years) and to involve themselves to bring things forward. This is refreshing something to be jealous of from a German perspective. We've had "consensus" politics that over the time lead to worse and worse compromises for years and years now and people generally are completely fed up with politics and don't want to be bothered with it. The general perception is that it doesn't matter anyway whom you vote for since they will all do the same anyway. During the last election campaign there was a big issue about whether to raise the VAT (which is a federal tax in Germany) or not. The Socialists wanted to raise it by 2% the conservatives said it should stay where it was. When they finally teamed up after the election they found a compromise between those two positions in raising it by 3%... No joke! My feeling (again, as an outsider) is, that after the Bush years there is actually MORE enthusiasm for politics in the US because people see they have to care and if you look at the result, it looks like a pretty clear vote in favor of a change from how it is now. For the moment, I think that's a pretty big chance! -- pippin --- see iPeng at penguinlovesmusic.com pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Nonreality;357791 Wrote: > Pippen they carry water with me. When someone always blames the other > side it's time to take care. I'm really hoping the blame game stops > and we start working things out here. It's possible but only if we let > go of ideology and start fixing things the right way. This goes for > both and all sides of the equation. just in case you missed it, i blamed both sides. while i ideologically am more to the right, in practice i recognize both sides as being scoundrals. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 (primary) / SBR (secondary) / SBC - w/SC 7.3b - Win XP Pro SP3 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - D-Link DIR-655 MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
illegal war? tell me, whats a "legal" war? saddam broke the terms of the 91 armistice, that made what we did "legal" at least in terms of the armistice. as to the wmds, which is it? is bush a master-criminal villain who duped the world for his own gain, or is he the idiot who can't speak properly and bumbled it all? frankly, its all rather moot now. whatever anyone thought, getting rid of saddam is a great thing and establishing a democracy in the arab world, the first one at that, is also a great thing. i'm not a bush fan, i'm upset with many things he did... but i really get upset over this hand wringing about bringing freedom to iraq, when the very same people want us to do just that in darfur, a situation that would be much more bloody, and has almost zero national interest to us at all. (and i'm not necessary against helping darfur militarily, i'm just pointing out the hypocrisy) -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 (primary) / SBR (secondary) / SBC - w/SC 7.3b - Win XP Pro SP3 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - D-Link DIR-655 MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
86atc250r;357725 Wrote: > I love this argument - If Bush was as corrupt as many of you seem to > believe, we *WOULD* have found WMD's, doesn't take a genius to think > that one through. Comparing his administration to Nazi Germany is as > ignorant as it is insulting for all of us on this side of the pond - > regardless of your politics. > So your argument is that as they did not fake the WMD's they are not corrupt at all? Even Bush is not stupid enough to have thought faking nukes would have been a good idea, there is no way they would have got away with it if you know anything about nuclear and chemical weapons production. Apart from the fact that there are other countries involved, the UN weapons inspectors would have demanded samples and they would known straight away the origin. No, when the so called intelligence became obviously flawed (intelligence from government agencies, so they must take some responsibilities) they rolled out a few more increasingly weak lies - it was because of 9/11 (which it had absolutely nothing to do Iraq). Then when people started questioning that nonsense then then moved on and said it was to stop his human rights abuses - which is odd, when you consider that many other countries (most middle east countries in fact) have far worse human rights yet the US (and know one else, im not singling out the US here) could be bothered, in fact often did business with them. And the predicted collateral damage was also moe than and people murdered by Saddam anyway (let alone the actual collateral damage, thats much higher). So basically we all know that Iraq was an illegal war, which was based on lies and was a cover for Bush and his administrations friends and families to profit from. Whats insulting, is that many American, British and other nations have lost good men and women simply so a group of the elite could get richer from the oil and the reconstruction/military contracts. Also, is not using the memory of all the poor innocent people who did on 9/11, when their deaths had nothing to do with this, not insulting to their memories? To be fair, I dont think the Bush etc actually thought that it would have got this bad, and they have done some things to put it right, but they still need to be held account for. My government too, im not attacking America im talking about the Bush and UK administrations. 86atc250r;357725 Wrote: > It's unfortunate that almost no one else had the "nuts" to go over > there with us and remove this dangerous person from a position of > power. Even if the war was based on actual true facts, most countries had the good sense to see that it was pointless and would end in a mess. -- autopilot *Lounge :* Squeezebox Classic -> Cambridge Audio Azur 640a -> Mission 701's. *Bedroom :* Squeezebox Receiver -> Trends TA10.1 Class-T -> Kef Cresta 1's *Office :* Softsqueeze -> Logitech Active 5.1's. *Kitchen :* Squeezebox Boom -coming soon- *Roaming : * Squeezebox Controller -> Logitech mm28 portable speakers / Shure E2c's *Controllers :* Squeezebox Controller x 2 + Logitech Harmony one *Server :* SC7.3b (Vista 64) + AlienBBC, iPlayer & MusicIP headless. 'LAST.FM' (http://www.last.fm/user/domrevans/) autopilot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1763 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
MrSinatra;357779 Wrote: > i'm sorry, but your 'impressions' of things really carry no water. > > people were homeless in 91 but not 96 or 98? i don't think ANYTHING > changed for the homeless, and still hasn't. > > anyone here can tell you that the country changed dramatically in the > 80s. carter was a disastor and reagan came in and laid down the > groundwork for the prosperity of the next 25 years. clinton meanwhile > had to work with a republican congress who did constrain him and his > spending, (welfare reform, etc...) > > the problems of the last 8 years started with 2 things, 9/11 and the > republicans loss of identity, meaning they started spending like > democrats and became corrupt as well. all these things along with some > terrible fiscal sector policies, (the fed, glass stegall repeal, mark to > market) all resulted in the economic mess now. > > if i were king, i'd bring in the fairtax, i'd balance the budget and > start paying off the debt, and i'd increase the valuation of the > currency by allowing the free market to set interest rates, (not the > fed). Pippen they carry water with me. When someone always blames the other side it's time to take care. I'm really hoping the blame game stops and we start working things out here. It's possible but only if we let go of ideology and start fixing things the right way. This goes for both and all sides of the equation. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
pippin;357730 Wrote: > Well, then let me share my outsider's view: > > When I first visited the US, back in 91, what I saw was a run-down > country. I'd been in eastern Europe a bit the years before (Poland, > Eastern Germany, Hungaria, then Czechoslovakia) and what I saw in the > US in terms of public infrastructure was worse in many places. You > could see a lot of homeless people in the street and the public > perception of security was, well, just bad. > > My next visit was in 96 and it was hard to believe for me how much had > changed. I had a few more visits and from 98 on the pleasure to work > for a US company which brought me regular visits. It will amaze me > forever how this country managed to change that dramatically in only 7 > years! Compare that to what we've achieved in eastern Germany. The US > did have a balanced budget, good mood, good infrastructure, a running > economy, in simple words: a strong country. > > That was during the Clinton days, a Democrat, wasn't he? > > Compare that to what you see today. My last visit to the US was 4 > months ago, and I have to say, it was still light years away from the > state of '91. Still a powerful, energetic country. But the mood was > different from the heydays of the late '90s and if I look at the > pricing structure, I felt that if I hadn't had the chance to buy $$ > cheaply with my (then much higher valued as today) Euros, I would have > found a lot of convenience items and services hard to afford - a clear > sign of inflation only compensated by cheap clothing and cheap > electronics (both probably imported from China). > > So, I can't tell how all this feels from the inside, but from an > outsider's perspective the last 8 years have been a huge step back > while the 8 years before that had been the most astonishing > transformation I have ever seen. > > Just my 2cts. i'm sorry, but your 'impressions' of things really carry no water. people were homeless in 91 but not 96 or 98? i don't think ANYTHING changed for the homeless, and still hasn't. anyone here can tell you that the country changed dramatically in the 80s. carter was a disastor and reagan came in and laid down the groundwork for the prosperity of the next 25 years. clinton meanwhile had to work with a republican congress who did constrain him and his spending, (welfare reform, etc...) the problems of the last 8 years started with 2 things, 9/11 and the republicans loss of identity, meaning they started spending like democrats and became corrupt as well. all these things along with some terrible fiscal sector policies, (the fed, glass stegall repeal, mark to market) all resulted in the economic mess now. if i were king, i'd bring in the fairtax, i'd balance the budget and start paying off the debt, and i'd increase the valuation of the currency by allowing the free market to set interest rates, (not the fed). -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 (primary) / SBR (secondary) / SBC - w/SC 7.3b - Win XP Pro SP3 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - D-Link DIR-655 MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
egd;357727 Wrote: > Demand and supply implications of: 1) retiring workforce, 2) declining > population 3) shareholder demographic, 4) cash/income poor retirees, 4) > potential for panic selling as share values decline as a result of > 1-3...and this was a likely scenario prior to the current crisis. Declining populations? Panic selling at retirement? Where is that happening? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. egd;357727 Wrote: > btw, my points were made in respect of western economies, not solely the > US. I see - your 401(k) and other comments, in which you demonstrated more misunderstanding than understanding, were broad comments? I was clear that my comments applied to the US. I try not to talk about things I am unfamiliar with. -- Goodsounds Goodsounds's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Hi Pippin, I found your outsider's perspectives interesting - thanks for sharing them. Much of the 90s coincided with the upstroke of the business cycle. Especially the second half, which also included the dot com bubble. Little or none of this is affected by politics or governmental policies, either on the way up or on the way down. A fair amount of public infrastructure-type things apparent to a visitor are funded by state and local authorities rather than the federal government. In the US, unlike in much of Europe, the majority of local governmental revenue is raised locally, not as an apportionment of federal funds, and it tends to have pieces that are difficult to change - real property tax, sales tax, etc. In boom times, receipts (and so expenditures) swell. When growth slows (as we've had since the turn of the century), the opposite happens, which is why state and local budgets have been under such pressure in recent years. Most are not able to run deficits, as the federal government can. It's also clear that a lot of federal money has been wasted over the last 6 years. I agree with you, US infrastructure sucks compared to that in most European countries. On the other hand, our tax burden is rather lower. People are generally unenthusiastic about tax increases, so you get what you pay for. As far as moods go, a lot of that is dependent upon whom you speak to. Most of my friends and associates are middle class, still employed, and not too radically impacted by recent travails in our economy. There will be more problems, job reductions, etc., so things will probably get worse before they get better, but overall, I do not sense a heavy mood among people I know. Of course, none of them have lost a house or have been significantly bitten by recent problems, other than the downturn in the stock market. People who have suffered big losses, different story. -- Goodsounds Goodsounds's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Certainly humanity wasn't the only issue - I wasn't presenting it that way either - I just made mention that we HAVE done a lot of good there & that many residents of Iraq are appreciative of our intervention. Should intervention be avoided if it may be perceived that there is some financial benefit? There better be a bunch as we've certainly spent a "bunch" over there. Personally, I believe the situation had much more to do with a perceived threat to our country - certainly in Afghanistan's case - we were attacked on our own soil by all means by those being harbored & training there (unless you really believe those fictional videos that somewhere along the line, got picked up by the conspiracy theory folks and presented as reality). Iraq was maybe more of a threat to our allies, the stability of the region - and of course, a number of the citizens that live there. As mentioned before, I'm fairly certain there is MUCH more to this than this lowly, hourly worker bee is aware of - and I'm quite certain none of us will ever have a full "big picture" of the situation. I'm right there with you on the celebrity issue. :) -- 86atc250r 86atc250r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15476 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
86atc250r;357735 Wrote: > Surely you can't be serious about this being simply an economic issue.That's > not what I said, I said there is no incentive to interfere unless there is an economic outcome attached to the interference. It's only at that point that it becomes a humanitarian cause worth addressing, otherwise it's just something for CNN, Fox and BBC to repeat ad nauseum whilst they wait for the next celebrity newsfeed. -- egd Internet forums: conclusive proof depth of gene pool is indeed variable, monkeys can be taught to cut code, and world peace is utterly unrealistic... Integrating MusicIP with SqueezeCenter...'*here's how*' (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Integrating_MusicIP_with_SqueezeCenter). egd's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3425 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
You can believe what you like - take the pessimist view and believe everything is motived by bad. Sure, there is plenty of things that go afoul in other countries around the world - but we can't fix 'em all, especially practically alone - and some of them present more of a direct threat (real or perceived) to us and our allies. Sometimes it's just bad to draw attention to yourself at the wrong time - that's what Afghanistan & Iraq did. Was it for financial purposes? Not as far as I can tell - we're certainly no better off financially for doing it & "stealing their oil" as much of the world accused us of for a time, certainly didn't help us when oil was $150/barrel. Shouldn't we have been swimming in the stuff & laughing at as the rest of the world bought oil at a 400% premium or more? Surely you can't be serious about this being simply an economic issue. Again, much like the economy this subject is so complex it would be very difficult to discuss it with any resemblance of intelligence without first hand involvement for many years. It's awfully easy to spout ancillary accusations from afar, especially if they're being fed to you as propaganda. -- 86atc250r 86atc250r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15476 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
You can believe what you like - take the pessimist view and believe everything is motived by bad. Sure, there is plenty of things that go afoul in other countries around the world - but we can't fix 'em all - and some of them present more of a direct threat (real or perceived) to us and our allies. Sometimes it's just bad to draw attention to yourself at the wrong time - that's what Afghanistan & Iraq did. Was it for financial purposes? Not as far as I can tell - we're certainly no better off financially for doing it & "stealing their oil" as much of the world accused us of for a time, certainly didn't help us when oil was $150/barrel. Shouldn't we have been swimming in the stuff & laughing at as the rest of the world bought oil at a 400% premium or more? Surely you can't be serious about this being simply an economic issue. Again, much like the economy this subject of the middle east is so complex and has so many intricacies, it would be very difficult to discuss it with any resemblance of intelligence without first hand involvement for many years. It's awfully easy to spout ancillary accusations from afar, especially if they're being fed to you as propaganda. -- 86atc250r 86atc250r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15476 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Pale Blue Ego;357649 Wrote: > There was a time not very long ago when the U.S. was the world's largest > creditor Depends on what you call "long". In this case, it's some 45 years ago. -- pippin --- see iPeng at penguinlovesmusic.com pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
86atc250r;357725 Wrote: > So the guy got some bad info (maybe) - intelligence is never 100% > accurate and all you can do is follow what you feel in your gut & the > information you've been provided. It's unfortunate we didn't find any > WMD's to shut everyone up, but the gist of it is that WE ARE doing good > things in Iraq, Saddam's regime was truly guilty of many crimes against > humanity, and most of the "regular" folk there do appreciate us - at > least according to the military personnel I've talked to that have been > there. It's unfortunate that almost no one else had the "nuts" to go > over there with us and remove this dangerous person from a position of > power.I just personally hope we can get Iraq's security shored up > before we make a knee jerk reaction and pull out prematurely, further > destabilizing the region and giving an opportunity to other extremists > groups like the Taliban.Do you really mean to tell me that there was no > economic motive behind Bush's attack on Saddam? C'mon, nobody in power gives a shit about human rights and crimes against humanity unless there's economic gain to be had by intervening or it's happening on their own turf. If this wasn't the case then how have so many cases of clear genocide, mass starvation, dictatorship etc. eg Somalia, Zimbabwe etc. been allowed to unfold unfettered by US or UN interference (other than the usual "play nice" rhetoric. Thousands die every day across Africa and nobody gives a shit precisely because there's no economic incentive to interfere. You surely can't be serious. -- egd Internet forums: conclusive proof depth of gene pool is indeed variable, monkeys can be taught to cut code, and world peace is utterly unrealistic... Integrating MusicIP with SqueezeCenter...'*here's how*' (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Integrating_MusicIP_with_SqueezeCenter). egd's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3425 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
MrSinatra;357686 Wrote: > that may be the case in germany, i have no idea. > > its certainly not the case here historically. libs never met an > entitlement they didn't like. > > the problem is, the bush republicans joined them. i think their > handling of spending and the economy is why they got crushed so badly. > > i can only hope they return to their roots, altho after this asskicking > i think they shall. Well, then let me share my outsider's view: When I first visited the US, back in 91, what I saw was a run-down country. I'd been in eastern Europe a bit the years before (Poland, Eastern Germany, Hungaria, then Czechoslovakia) and what I saw in the US in terms of public infrastructure was worse in many places. You could see a lot of homeless people in the street and the public perception of security was, well, just bad. My next visit was in 96 and it was hard to believe for me how much had changed. I had a few more visits and from 98 on the pleasure to work for a US company which brought me regular visits. It will amaze me forever how this country managed to change that dramatically in only 7 years! Compare that to what we've achieved in eastern Germany. The US did have a balanced budget, good mood, good infrastructure, a running economy, in simple words: a strong country. That was during the Clinton days, a Democrat, wasn't he? Compare that to what you see today. My last visit to the US was 4 months ago, and I have to say, it was still light years away from the state of '91. Still a powerful, energetic country. But the mood was different from the heydays of the late '90s and if I look at the pricing structure, I felt that if I hadn't had the chance to buy $$ cheaply with my (then much higher values as today) Euros, I would have found a lot of convenience items and services hard to afford - a clear sign of inflation only compensated by cheap clothing and cheap electronics (both probably imported from China). So, I can't tell how all this feels from the inside, but from an outsider's perspective the last 8 years have been a huge step back while the 8 years before that had been the most astonishing transformation I have ever seen. Just my 2cts. -- pippin --- see iPeng at penguinlovesmusic.com pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Goodsounds;357700 Wrote: > As I asked before, so what?Demand and supply implications of: 1) retiring > workforce, 2) declining population 3) shareholder demographic, 4) cash/income poor retirees, 4) potential for panic selling as share values decline as a result of 1-3...and this was a likely scenario prior to the current crisis. -- egd Internet forums: conclusive proof depth of gene pool is indeed variable, monkeys can be taught to cut code, and world peace is utterly unrealistic... Integrating MusicIP with SqueezeCenter...'*here's how*' (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Integrating_MusicIP_with_SqueezeCenter). egd's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3425 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Wow, for the most part I'm pretty proud of those participating in this thread, in many other boards I visit the discussion would have went afoul much longer ago. > So, when does George Bush go on trial? Weapons of mass destruction my > ass! I love this argument - If Bush was as corrupt as many of you seem to believe, we *WOULD* have found WMD's, doesn't take a genius to think that one through. Comparing his administration to Nazi Germany is as ignorant as it is insulting for all of us on this side of the pond - regardless of your politics. So the guy got some bad info (maybe) - intelligence is never 100% accurate and all you can do is follow what you feel in your gut & the information you've been provided. It's unfortunate we didn't find any WMD's to shut everyone up, but the gist of it is that WE ARE doing good things in Iraq, Saddam's regime was truly guilty of many crimes against humanity, and most of the "regular" folk there do appreciate us - at least according to the military personnel I've talked to that have been there. It's unfortunate that almost no one else had the "nuts" to go over there with us and remove this dangerous person from a position of power.I just personally hope we can get Iraq's security shored up before we make a knee jerk reaction and pull out prematurely, further destabilizing the region and giving an opportunity to other extremists groups like the Taliban. The other thing I have a problem with is people blaming the current state of the economy on those awful republicans. No offense to anyone in particular but this discussion is so complex and long in the making that assigning blame toward one side or the other is a sure sign you've been brainwashed by your media or have limited capacity to process the scope of the situation. Personally I feel a lot of greed by various groups lead us to this. Firstly, there's only so much $5+/gallon diesel the US economy, as powerful as it is/was can support. I'm well aware many in the world would find this a bargain, but we're a big country with large open spaces and the need to do a LOT of transportation to support our economy and citizens - the whole country practically runs on diesel in one form or fashion. Certainly a large part of the blame for this quagmire falls right in the laps of those responsible - whoever you believe that is. Hopefully the end result of this is a lot more money poured into developing alternative and "cleaner" energy sources, a lot more quickly. Another HUGE part of the problem were the lineant lending practices that allowed a huge rush of unqualified people to purchase property they absolutely could not afford in attempt to "flip" it and make a mint in the process. This phenomenon lead to a huge inflation of real estate prices on both the coasts (and to a lesser extent, the middle of the country) that could absolutely not be sustained for any reasonable period of time. Combine this with skyrocketing energy costs (which affect the cost of *EVERYTHING* else) and you have the "perfect storm" Now - the reality is, as long as energy is available, and we have natural resources (and use them wisely), the prices & economy will correct themselves with time. We've already seen it with oil returning to the $60~70 range - it may not stay there but I bet it will be at least a little while before we see it at $150/barrel again. FWIW - it's going to be an interesting four years for sure. As others in this thread I congratulate Mr Obama on his victory & hope he does a great job for us all as well as heals our relationship with the world (which I believe was unduly tarnished by "the media's" extreme hatred of Bush). Three of my biggest concerns though are his experience - it's one thing to make a good speech, it's quite another to make good decisions. Next, the amount of money he spent to get there - that simply equals a *lot* of favors to a *lot* of people. The other is his current voting record making him one of the most (if not the most) partisan liberals in the Senate. -- 86atc250r 86atc250r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15476 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
egd;357691 Wrote: > I'd venture a guess that even in the US tax legislation and employment > terms would have a bearing on whether or not you make 401k > contributions Nope, employer support can be withdrawn at any time. Plans can be started or ended at will. Think of it like a bonus, can be paid or not paid discretionally, and 401(k) participation is NEVER included in employment contracts (which in themselves are rare anyway). But the unfunded kind I mentioned, when used, are sometimes included in employment contracts for upper level employees. But not always. egd;357691 Wrote: > and fund and/or tax rules would also dictate mandatory drawdown at some > point Yes, this is normal, if tax rules are involved when something goes in, they also are involved when something comes out. But if one of the other kinds of plans I mentioned, tax rule attention is very light. egd;357691 Wrote: > forcing a selling down of a portion or all of your portfolio. As I asked before, so what? -- Goodsounds Goodsounds's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
MrSinatra;357692 Wrote: > i can't believe they want to takeover 401ks. > > if so, there'll be a revolution. > > maybe if conditions continue to decline, that would make bringing on > the fairtax easier, as a cure to what ails us. > > http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer I KNOW why Dem politicians don't like the Fair Tax since they derive their power through taxation, but EVERY American should WANT the Fair Tax! For one, it encourages savings (which most Americans are HORRIBLE at), and second, it reduces a HUGE burden from small businesses who spend FAR too much money and time trying to remain in compliance with our RIDICULOUSLY overwrought tax code! Those who feel that they would like to pay MORE, to help them feel "patriotic" (Bidenomics) can ALWAYS send in a donation to the Federal Reserve. I am almost CERTAIN that they won't send back the uncancelled check! -- NFLnut NFLnut's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13180 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
egd;357682 Wrote: > > 1 question - who introduced mandatory pension schemes and wrote the > rules around pension funds and 401K's and equivalents - governments or > companies? So you don't think I'm pulling your string, let me add that there are tax rules (not labor or company law rules) that can apply IF a company wants to deduct set-asides (and avoid individual taxation) before they are paid out. Those are conditions for a tax deduction. The tax deduction rules are pretty logical, and do not prevent a company from suspending a plan and withdrawing future support, at any time. Companies are free to not comply with the tax rules, there are no penalties other than they just get a less favorable result. If a company doesn't want to prefund and deduct, it is welcome to establish, dis-establish, change, withdraw, etc., future retirement arrangements as a contractural matter (with employees) at will. Many companies have such arrangements, and the legal constraints are very few. -- Goodsounds Goodsounds's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
MrSinatra;357686 Wrote: > that may be the case in germany, i have no idea. > > its certainly not the case here historically. libs never met an > entitlement they didn't like. > > the problem is, the bush republicans joined them. i think their > handling of spending and the economy is why they got crushed so badly. > > i can only hope they return to their roots, altho after this asskicking > i think they shall. Couldn't have said it better. As I said previously .. the Dems have become Socialists, and the Republicans have become Democrats. IF the Repubs can REWIND back about twenty years, perhaps they will find something they like. Maybe a Squeezebox Controller will help them in that task! ;-) -- NFLnut NFLnut's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13180 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
i can't believe they want to takeover 401ks. if so, there'll be a revolution. maybe if conditions continue to decline, that would make bringing on the fairtax easier, as a cure to what ails us. http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 (primary) / SBR (secondary) / SBC - w/SC 7.3b - Win XP Pro SP3 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - D-Link DIR-655 MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Goodsounds;357685 Wrote: > I think the literal answer to your question is no one, because there are > no such rules. Neither pension plans (how defined benefit plans are > usually referred to) nor profit sharing plans (defined contribution > plans, including 401(k) but there are others) are mandatory in the US.So > governments and their taxation bodies had no hand in writing influencing how any of the abovementioned operate? That's definitely not the case in many other countries eg in Australia eployee participation in a superannuation scheme is mandatory and there are very clear legislative and fund specific rules as to what your rights are, when you can access the funds, taxation implications etc. I'd venture a guess that even in the US tax legislation and employment terms would have a bearing on whether or not you make 401k contributions and fund and/or tax rules would also dictate mandatory drawdown at some point, forcing a selling down of a portion or all of your portfolio. -- egd Internet forums: conclusive proof depth of gene pool is indeed variable, monkeys can be taught to cut code, and world peace is utterly unrealistic... Integrating MusicIP with SqueezeCenter...'*here's how*' (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Integrating_MusicIP_with_SqueezeCenter). egd's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3425 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
egd;357667 Wrote: > This scenario is only going to get worse as baby boomers retire and > start accessing their 401Ks. This is not a problem created by Bush or > Obama (no doubt he'll cop the blame though), it goes back to switching > from defined benefit to defined contribution pensions. The next 10-15 > years will likely be very ugly for many westernised nations that have > left retirement funding almost entirely in the hands of funds managers. > In the cold light of day it's almost unthinkable that you'd leave your > golden years in the hands of some young punk who doesn't give a shit > what happens to the funds he's playing with so long as he's in the game > long enough to make his disproportionate bonuses playing with other > people's money and get out sitting pretty. In the final analysis, > that's exactly what most governments forced employees into. .. and guess who just started talking about the gubmint taking over all 401k's? Let's see .. they already spent all of the money in Soc Security, now they want to get their grubby little mitts on all of the 401k money too! It's time for putting your money under the mattress and sitting upon it holding your shotguns! :-) -- NFLnut NFLnut's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13180 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Goodsounds;357573 Wrote: > I think you'd have a different view if you read American Caesar, by > Manchester. The guy had a very flawed and bizarre view of himself and > the world around him. > > I vote for Eisenhower - heck, they even named a street for him in > Paris. That's saying something! Yeah. I just picked McArthur from the top of my head actually. I didn't want to say Patton, although he was an effective General, he was quite an SOB. Probably what you want in a General really. As to McArthur .. you just have to like the old line "Old soldiers never die .." -- NFLnut NFLnut's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13180 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
pippin;357478 Wrote: > How about this one: > It's my experience (and I can provide ample evidence in favor of that > argument), that it's always the conservatives who call for financial > prudence and the liberals who have it. that may be the case in germany, i have no idea. its certainly not the case here historically. libs never met an entitlement they didn't like. the problem is, the bush republicans joined them. i think their handling of spending and the economy is why they got crushed so badly. i can only hope they return to their roots, altho after this asskicking i think they shall. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 (primary) / SBR (secondary) / SBC - w/SC 7.3b - Win XP Pro SP3 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - D-Link DIR-655 MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
egd;357682 Wrote: > > 1 question - who introduced mandatory pension schemes and wrote the > rules around pension funds and 401K's and equivalents - governments or > companies? I think the literal answer to your question is no one, because there are no such rules. Neither pension plans (how defined benefit plans are usually referred to) nor profit sharing plans (defined contribution plans, including 401(k) but there are others) are mandatory in the US. -- Goodsounds Goodsounds's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Goodsounds;357677 Wrote: > I'm not sure how any government had any influence on this. What do you > have in mind?before we get into another Linux/Windows type circular exchange > let's presume for a second that you're not alone in having successfully completed postgraduate studies in the finance and economics disciplines. Rather than respond to your individual questions I'll answer the last because it also serves to answer many of those preceding... 1 question - who introduced mandatory pension schemes and wrote the rules around pension funds and 401K's and equivalents - governments or companies? -- egd Internet forums: conclusive proof depth of gene pool is indeed variable, monkeys can be taught to cut code, and world peace is utterly unrealistic... Integrating MusicIP with SqueezeCenter...'*here's how*' (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Integrating_MusicIP_with_SqueezeCenter). egd's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3425 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Pale Blue Ego;357649 Wrote: > Conspiracy theory? No, simple facts. Our economic system is > unsustainabile.Got to say I agree with you with one exception - the model is sustainable so long as market participants retain faith in the system. The current debacle is what happens when they realise the emperor indeed has no clothes. -- egd Internet forums: conclusive proof depth of gene pool is indeed variable, monkeys can be taught to cut code, and world peace is utterly unrealistic... Integrating MusicIP with SqueezeCenter...'*here's how*' (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Integrating_MusicIP_with_SqueezeCenter). egd's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3425 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
egd;357667 Wrote: > This scenario is only going to get worse as baby boomers retire and > start accessing their 401Ks. How so? egd;357667 Wrote: > This is not a problem created by Bush or Obama (no doubt he'll cop the > blame though), it goes back to switching from defined benefit to defined > contribution pensions. At least in the US, these changes were made by companies who realized that employee demographics made defined benefit plans unsustainable. egd;357667 Wrote: > The next 10-15 years will likely be very ugly for many westernised > nations that have left retirement funding almost entirely in the hands > of funds managers. What do you have in mind with this comment? If one has funds for retirement, who would manage them other than a funds manager? In the case of private funds, the managers compete for the business and keep it or lose it based on performance - is there a better way to do it? egd;357667 Wrote: > In the cold light of day it's almost unthinkable that you'd leave your > golden years in the hands of some young punk who doesn't give a shit > what happens to the funds he's playing with so long as he's in the game > long enough to make his disproportionate bonuses playing with other > people's money and get out sitting pretty. In the final analysis, > that's exactly what most governments forced employees into. I'm not sure how any government had any influence on this. What do you have in mind? -- Goodsounds Goodsounds's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Pale Blue Ego;357649 Wrote: > Conspiracy theory? No, simple facts. Our economic system is > unsustainable. US presidents had better listened to Allen Greenspan: "under the gold standard, a free banking system stands as the protector of an economy's stability and balanced growth... The abandonment of the gold standard made it possible for the welfare statists to use the banking system as a means to an unlimited expansion of credit... In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation." cheers, Nick. -- DeVerm DeVerm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18104 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
I can only recommend that you continue to read about and talk to a wide range of opinions, and keep your eyes open. The situation is not as complicated or as dire as you paint it. It seems that you have a fair number of things confused and have an incomplete understanding of how the pieces fit together. Unfortunately, there are the current problems to work through and some pain to endure. Hopefully that will pass but many people will needlessly suffer. Many of those people were victims of overenthusiastic real estate salesmen and loan brokers - most of what happened in the credit markets/banking sector was avoidable. I wish you and everyone else well, we're all losers over all of this. Thank goodness the normal business cycle has up periods after the down ones. Hang in there. -- Goodsounds Goodsounds's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
NFLnut;357562 Wrote: > worry if my investments for retirement have lost 25% of their value in 3 > months (and counting). This is a reason that as we age, we tend often to > grow more Conservative.This scenario is only going to get worse as baby > boomers retire and start accessing their 401Ks. This is not a problem created by Bush or Obama (no doubt he'll cop the blame though), it goes back to switching from defined benefit to defined contribution pensions. The next 10-15 years will likely be very ugly for many westernised nations that have left retirement funding almost entirely in the hands of funds managers. -- egd Internet forums: conclusive proof depth of gene pool is indeed variable, monkeys can be taught to cut code, and world peace is utterly unrealistic... Integrating MusicIP with SqueezeCenter...'*here's how*' (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Integrating_MusicIP_with_SqueezeCenter). egd's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3425 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Goodsounds;357600 Wrote: > These comments sound like survivalist/conspiracy theorist stuff, is that > where you're coming from? No, I'm coming from traditional and sound money policy. There was a time not very long ago when the U.S. was the world's largest creditor, now we are the largest debtor. We have to borrow $3 billion PER DAY to run our government, and we have trillions of unfunded obligations coming due. Capital used to come from wealth earned and saved, now it is conjured out of thin air. Almost every individual, family, company, and government is in debt, and many are defacto bankrupt. That's because our economic model is based on debt. We have granted one private corporation, the Federal Reserve, the exclusive license to "create" money and to charge the U.S. Government interest on it. All our money is debt. It isn't backed by anything except the concept that the debt will be paid sometime in the future. It's a promise that may or may not come true. So far we have been able stay ahead of the game simply by issuing more debt. It's like if an individual was allowed to borrow a million bucks a day, at 1% interest. Eventually, the entire million bucks borrowed every day would have to go toward paying the interest. Then the only options are, to default or to start borrowing 2 million bucks a day. You can see that this is merely postponing the ultimate collapse, and in fact is accelerating the RATE of the collapse. This is where the U.S. finds itself today, very close to the end of that destructive cycle. Our National Debt has doubled in the past year. It may have to double again next year to preserve the illusion. Compare that mess to the concept that was laid out in the Constitution (and which is still in effect, though obviously not observed), that only Congress has the power to issue money, and it must be in the form of gold and silver coin. OK, coins might be a little less convenient to carry around - or maybe not, if you consider that one ounce of gold could buy a month's worth of groceries. If you think of goods and services not in terms of dollars, but as a certain weight of gold or silver, you'll discover a remarkably stable price history. 100 years ago an ounce of gold would buy a man a very nice custom-made suit of clothes - it still will. 80 years ago, 30 oz of gold would buy a good-quality automobile - it still will. In the 60's you could buy a gallon of gas with 3 dimes - you still can, if those dimes are pre-1964 90% silver. Conspiracy theory? No, simple facts. Our economic system is unsustainable. -- Pale Blue Ego Pale Blue Ego's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=110 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Goodsounds;357596 Wrote: > Exactly to my point - markets are most affected by actions in the > market, not by governmental actions or policies. Oh, I dunno, -bad- government policies typically have an effect. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Pale Blue Ego;357590 Wrote: > You're saying the free market always prevails over all attempts to > control it? I would tend to agree in concept, EXCEPT that the period > of time between the manipulation and the market correction can be many > decades. Certainly during that time, the policies, theories, and > governments DO affect markets. > > The 1913 Federal Reserve experiment in fiat money will probably end > (disastrously) before its centennial, but that does nothing for the > people who have seen their dollar lose 98% of its value through > state-sanctioned counterfeiting. My friend, I really don't understand what you are trying to say. These comments sound like survivalist/conspiracy theorist stuff, is that where you're coming from? The end is not nigh - ok to renew your magazine subscriptions, you'll be around to read them. -- Goodsounds Goodsounds's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
snarlydwarf;357582 Wrote: > . > The huge irony is that despite all the talk about health care and > prescription drug costs for the last 20 years, the single most > important force in saving consumers money on drugs has been... Walmart > and the effect it had on their competitors to negotiate lower prices > with their suppliers, too. Exactly to my point - markets are most affected by actions in the market, not by governmental actions or policies. -- Goodsounds Goodsounds's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Goodsounds;357580 Wrote: > Markets affect markets, not policies, theories, or governments. You're saying the free market always prevails over all attempts to control it? I would tend to agree in concept, EXCEPT that the period of time between the manipulation and the market correction can be many decades. Certainly during that time, the policies, theories, and governments DO affect markets. The 1913 Federal Reserve experiment in fiat money will probably end (disastrously) before its centennial, but that does nothing for the people who have seen their dollar lose 98% of its value through state-sanctioned counterfeiting. -- Pale Blue Ego Pale Blue Ego's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=110 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Pale Blue Ego;357567 Wrote: > The election was a complete non-issue, a distracting dog-and-pony show. > > As a cynical old fart, I must agree with you. After the collapse of the USSR, there were some wonderful election stories about their first real elections: they had some clever rules. In order to win, you needed to have more than 50% of the votes... and undercounts counted against you. So many old time party bosses ran, as they always had, unopposed. And lost. Around these parts, it would probably take years to actually have a winner in an election.. but, maybe if they did that on a local level, then escalated to state and then national races over a 10-20 year period it would weed out the "they suck less than the other guy" candidates. Too much American politics is dictated by the "I suck less" candidates, and lots of talk (from both parties, I hate all politicians regardless of political affiliation, creed, race, gender, whatever, they all lie) about being the voice of 'the people' when they are in the top 1-2% of incomes, and more interested in how they remodel their 3rd or 4th home than why their constituents are struggling to pay their bills. The huge irony is that despite all the talk about health care and prescription drug costs for the last 20 years, the single most important force in saving consumers money on drugs has been... Walmart and the effect it had on their competitors to negotiate lower prices with their suppliers, too. (And hopefully to get consumers to smack their doctor for prescribing non-generics when generics are available.. did you know doctors get kickbacks on the prescriptions they write?) Bah, time to crank up the music. And, you kids, get off my lawn. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Pale Blue Ego;357576 Wrote: > ..Unfortunately, modern economics treats debt as money and money as > debt... This is a bit of a nonsensical comment. "Economics" exists in books and academia, not really anywhere else. The Fed, governments, etc make decisions based on politics and "hoped for" outcomes that coincide with desired policies. The "levers of control" are notoriously ineffective. Markets affect markets, not policies, theories, or governments. If you don't like money, don't use it. The legal underpinnings are really irrelevant. Different countries have different legal underpinnings for money, and the ultimate difference is zilch. Send me what you don't want, I like it fine. -- Goodsounds Goodsounds's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Goodsounds;357569 Wrote: > I'm also a businessman, with a degree in economics. I always ask economists this question... What is money? -- Pale Blue Ego Pale Blue Ego's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=110 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Goodsounds;357575 Wrote: > I'm very far removed from the theoretical stuff, but I think the book > answer is that money is a medium of exchange, that has value only if > people agree that it does and agree to use it. Otherwise, it's nothing > at all. Its use evolved to avoid the inconvenience and limitations of > physically exchanging actual goods. That's close enough to the classic definition. Unfortunately, modern economics treats debt as money and money as debt. Our own money (Federal Reserve Notes) is actually an IOU. It's only value comes from legal tender laws requiring us to accept "a promise to pay" as actual payment. -- Pale Blue Ego Pale Blue Ego's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=110 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Pale Blue Ego;357574 Wrote: > I always ask economists this question... > > What is money? I'm very far removed from the theoretical stuff, but I think the book answer is that money is a medium of exchange, that has value only if people agree that it does and agree to use it. Otherwise, it's nothing at all. Its use evolved to avoid the inconvenience and limitations of physically exchanging actual goods. -- Goodsounds Goodsounds's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
NFLnut;357556 Wrote: > Douglas McArthur. I think you'd have a different view if you read American Caesar, by Manchester. The guy had a very flawed and bizarre view of himself and the world around him. I vote for Eisenhower - heck, they even named a street for him in Paris. That's saying something! -- Goodsounds Goodsounds's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Goodsounds;357569 Wrote: > Don't get too carried away believing the sloganeering, my friend. The > last two major "conservative" administrations, Reagan and Bush 2, have > been anything but conservative in failing to control spending and > balance the federal budget. Today's leading conservative voices are > masters of porkbarrel spending and hypocrisy. > > I'm also a businessman, with a degree in economics. Am also a > recovering Republican, and I will say that I'm quite optimistic about > the future. The two major influences of any economy or market are fear > and greed. Greed is what caused the current problems, and after some > pain, the sun will shine again. Hang tough. That's pretty much what I referenced in a previous post in this thread. EXCEPT that there is very LITTLE (none?) Conservatism in the Republican Party, save some of the new faces like Bobby Jindal and Tim Pawlenty. Bush was NO Conservative, and neither are most of the Republicans in Congress. That is why we are in the mess we are now. The Democrats have become Socialists, and the Republicans have become Democrats. -- NFLnut NFLnut's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13180 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
NFLnut;357562 Wrote: > Agreed. But I also know that when I was "18-29," I didn't understand a > whole lot (especially at the lower end of that scale) about > macroeconomics, nor how to balance a spreadsheet, or how to stay up > late at night worrying that my small business can meet payroll during > tough times, nor worry if my investments for retirement have lost 25% > of their value in 3 months (and counting). This is a reason that as we > age, we tend often to grow more Conservative. Don't get too carried away believing the sloganeering, my friend. The last two major "conservative" administrations, Reagan and Bush 2, have been anything but conservative in failing to control spending and balance the federal budget. Today's leading conservative voices are masters of porkbarrel spending and hypocrisy. I'm also a businessman, with a degree in economics. Am also a recovering Republican, and I will say that I'm quite optimistic about the future. The two major influences of any economy or market are fear and greed. Greed is what caused the current problems, and after some pain, the sun will shine again. Hang tough. -- Goodsounds Goodsounds's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
The election was a complete non-issue, a distracting dog-and-pony show. Will anything really change? Obama voted for the unconstitutional banking bailout and for unconstitutional warrantless wiretapping. Will ObamAmerica continue to kidnap and torture in violation of American and International law? Will the surveillance state be dismantled? Will the illegal combat troops be removed from the NORTHCOM theater of operations? I'm willing to wait and see, but nobody gets a free pass. Obama has done nothing to show that he is anything but a puppet for global corporatism and the military state, same as McCain. -- Pale Blue Ego Pale Blue Ego's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=110 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
pippin;357473 Wrote: > And what would McCain have been without his age peer group? > Bad tongues say that's people who don't have to care about the future > because they have none... :-) Agreed. But I also know that when I was "18-29," I didn't understand a whole lot (especially at the lower end of that scale) about macroeconomics, nor how to balance a spreadsheet, or how to stay up late at night worrying that my small business can meet payroll during tough times, nor worry if my investments for retirement have lost 25% of their value in 3 months (and counting). This is a reason that as we age, we tend often to grow more Conservative. -- NFLnut NFLnut's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13180 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
autopilot;357485 Wrote: > And what wrong with that, when US politics have such a massive global > impact? We can't vote, yet it has a huge impact on us. If some people > dont care what anyone else around the world thinks then thats their > choice. Bit of a sweeping statement i know, but its always seemed to me > that democrat voters might be less insular and care a bit more about > global opinion that republican. This impression, for me personally, was > reinforced by the fact that people where prepared to vote in Sarah Palin > - who clearly is the most internationally ignorant (less knowledge than > that of most school children) politician at this level i can recall - > never even been outside of the US. I'm not saying British foreign > policy has exactly been a great success either, mostly because we have > been so much in the pocket of the US. > > So when i congratulated the US for voting in Obama, it was not > superficial - i generally do think its great that the US had the guts > to try something different. I hope it works out well for you - and the > rest of us. We just have trouble when the rest of the world had Obama coronated and knighted back in August. It is OUR election after all. As to Obama: as I said back in another post, "HOPE" and "CHANGE" are bumper sticker slogans. The actual governing of a Country is another matter. Be careful what you wish for. -- NFLnut NFLnut's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13180 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Howard Passman;357479 Wrote: > P.S. It does say "General Discussion. So whose your favorite General? Douglas McArthur. -- NFLnut NFLnut's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13180 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Khuli;357469 Wrote: > Bush has already nationalized some banks, so it's not exclusively an > Obama thing. Even 'Comrade' Obama is not going to go around > nationalizing perfectly good businesses I'm not going to say much (any?) more on this topic on this forum, because like Peter, I agree that the subject has nothing to do with streaming music devices. And to be honest, I am about tapped out on my ability to discuss this election anymore. All I say is .. YOU are correct too. I was a Bush supporter, on some aspects at least. But he lost my support on a number of issues. I am a Reagan Conservative and Bush initially ran on the platform of "Compassionate Conservatism." I'm afraid that we found out that only on a few issues was he ever "Conservative." And the bailout was a HORRIBLE decision. So I agree with you on that. As to Obama and the further nationalization of businesses. We'll see. I am not going to be bitter like so many were at the onset (and remained so) about Bush. But I have SERIOUS doubts about Obama, and having heard his plans for the economy, taxes, etc I'll just say that I am very concerned. I can only hope that I am proven wrong. -- NFLnut NFLnut's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13180 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
pippin;357478 Wrote: > How about this one: > It's my experience (and I can provide ample evidence in favor of that > argument), that it's always the conservatives who call for financial > prudence and the liberals who have it. > > Not a US thing, same here in Germany. 16 years of conservative > spending, then 7 years of Socialist spending cuts, now we are back to > the spending spree (worst of all: conservatives and socialists teamed > up for gov!). Yup. Same here in the US. The spending gets much worse when the two parties start to cooperate more. When it's partisan it's nasty bickering and finger pointing. When they agree and team uplookout!! :) OK, so for those that want Squeeze talkwhich RSS streaming service on your SB offered the best election night coverage? :-) -- toby10 toby10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12553 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
Nonreality;356882 Wrote: > Let's all hope the best for the USA shall we, and a lot of good music. > :) I think when I started this thread I just wanted the world to hope for the best for us and in turn the best for them. I sure do. I hope you do too. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
peter;357484 Wrote: > > I predicted the ensuing discussion will > be superficial > Peoples opinions are their opinions, i would not go around telling every their opinions are superficial - just as valid an anyone elses, regardless of political leaning. peter;357484 Wrote: > and probably end in flames. > Sadly, thats often true. peter;357484 Wrote: > I prefer it when people stay > at least close to the subject of the forum. > I thought they had, sorry if i have badly misjudged this. -- autopilot *Lounge :* Squeezebox Classic -> Cambridge Audio Azur 640a -> Mission 701's. *Bedroom :* Squeezebox Receiver -> Trends TA10.1 Class-T -> Kef Cresta 1's *Office :* Softsqueeze -> Logitech Active 5.1's. *Kitchen :* Squeezebox Boom -coming soon- *Roaming : * Squeezebox Controller -> Logitech mm28 portable speakers / Shure E2c's *Controllers :* Squeezebox Controller x 2 + Logitech Harmony one *Server :* SC7.3b (Vista 64) + AlienBBC, iPlayer & MusicIP headless. 'LAST.FM' (http://www.last.fm/user/domrevans/) autopilot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1763 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
egd;357480 Wrote: > So, when does George Bush go on trial? Weapons of mass destruction my > ass! He's passed regulations that forbid himself or any of his staff from prosecution. If only the Nazi's did that, they'd have gotten away scot free at the Nuremberg Trials. -- badbob badbob's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7358 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
pippin;357477 Wrote: > OK, so let us Europeans discuss about the US elections :-) > I've got some nice outside views on that issue, too. And what wrong with that, when US politics have such a massive global impact? We can't vote, yet it has a huge impact on us. If some people dont care what anyone else around the world thinks then thats their choice. Bit of a sweeping statement i know, but its always seemed to me that democrat voters might be less insular and care a bit more about global opinion that republican. This impression was reinforced by the fact that people where prepared to vote in Sarah Palin - who clearly is the most internationally ignorant (less than that of most school children) politician at this level i can recall - never even been outside of the US. I'm not saying British foreign policy has exactly been a great success either, mostly because we have been so much in the pocket of the US. So when i congratulated the US for voting in Obama, it was not superficial - i generally do think its great that the US had the guts to try something different. I hope it works out well for you. -- autopilot *Lounge :* Squeezebox Classic -> Cambridge Audio Azur 640a -> Mission 701's. *Bedroom :* Squeezebox Receiver -> Trends TA10.1 Class-T -> Kef Cresta 1's *Office :* Softsqueeze -> Logitech Active 5.1's. *Kitchen :* Squeezebox Boom -coming soon- *Roaming : * Squeezebox Controller -> Logitech mm28 portable speakers / Shure E2c's *Controllers :* Squeezebox Controller x 2 + Logitech Harmony one *Server :* SC7.3b (Vista 64) + AlienBBC, iPlayer & MusicIP headless. 'LAST.FM' (http://www.last.fm/user/domrevans/) autopilot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1763 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What an election.
autopilot wrote: > Peter - i don't understand why you can't just ignore the thread. If you > have no interest thats cool - dont click on the single small text link > and you wont see it. But you do and you seem to be following it too, > getting involved are start telling everyone what they can and cant talk > about where - and you call me superficial? What gives? > I did not call you superficial. I predicted the ensuing discussion will be superficial and probably end in flames. I prefer it when people stay at least close to the subject of the forum. Regards, Peter ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
