subject:"Re\: \[Emc\-users\] Open source CNC architecture"




> On 16 Feb 2020, at 2:08 pm, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> 
 
 It is for a plasma cutter configuration, stepper motors for the axes and
 LinuxCNC doing the torch height control.
 
>>> Totally get that.  Wouldn't want a tool like I'm proposing on a 3D printer
>> either.
>>> John
>> 
>> This is just one instance where LinuxCNC with it's flexibility really shines.
>> 
> Recall I've never said anything about getting rid of LinuxCNC as a trajectory 
> planner nor user interface with tool path display etc. 
> 
> But isn't a plasma cutter a lot like a 3D printer?  Especially one that uses 
> a touch probe to map the surface and tweaks the Z axis so the plastic ends up 
> flat.  I use OctoPi to interface to mine.  But that's only as something that 
> pulls serial data from the USB port and repackages it as a web page on my 
> laptop in another room.
No, the torch voltage is read every servo period then if the voltage is outside 
the defined voltage then the Z axis is adjusted until the torch voltage is back 
to the target voltage

> 
> And when it comes to 3D printing where's the push to replace all those 
> Arduino's and Pi interfaces with a PC and a full keyboard, mouse and screen?  
> After all wouldn't they work so much better if they were running LinuxCNC?
I don't recall anyone saying that LinuxCNC would be "better" at running a 3D 
printer than anything else. I used to use Octopi for my 3D printer but now I 
use DuetWiFi. I still communicate with the DuetWiFi from a PC and a full 
keyboard, mouse and screen

> 
> So although in the case of the lights out behaviour of my 3D printer I could 
> (and have) put the laptop right beside the printer and used OctoPi to do 
> other setup or control stuff.  But for the most part I'm not near it.  The 
> camera on the Pi2 provides the feedback I need.  And I'm not suggesting this 
> for a milling machine or a lathe.
I wouldn't leave a 3D print going without me being in the same room, that is 
just a personal preference. I am paranoid about a runaway heater...
>  
> 
> But my point is I use the stupid little 5 button array to navigate through a 
> set of annoying menus to turn on the heater bed, heater, load filament, home 
> it, calibrate on the corners etc.  And then I could load the G-Code file from 
> the SD card and start printing.  But I prefer the the OctoPi interface which 
> is really in some ways like the AXIS Interface for LinuxCNC.
I have no controls on my 3D printer, I used to have a stupid little 5 button 
array to navigate through a set of annoying menus to turn on the heater bed, 
heater, load filament, home it, calibrate on the corners etc. but as you say 
that is stupid.
> 
> 
> I just think that when we talk about LinuxCNC nowadays we're not really 
> talking about LinuxCNC anymore.  We're talking about A PC with the LinuxCNC 
> software connected to some sort of sophisticated FPGA/Processor board which 
> has things like the stepping engine off loaded to it.  And this external card 
> may or may not also be the BoB.
I would hardly call a parallel port sophisticated, that is what runs my mill 
and one of my lathes.

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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture



> >>
> >> It is for a plasma cutter configuration, stepper motors for the axes and
> >> LinuxCNC doing the torch height control.
> >>
> > Totally get that.  Wouldn't want a tool like I'm proposing on a 3D printer
> either.
> > John
> 
> This is just one instance where LinuxCNC with it's flexibility really shines.
> 
Recall I've never said anything about getting rid of LinuxCNC as a trajectory 
planner nor user interface with tool path display etc. 

But isn't a plasma cutter a lot like a 3D printer?  Especially one that uses a 
touch probe to map the surface and tweaks the Z axis so the plastic ends up 
flat.  I use OctoPi to interface to mine.  But that's only as something that 
pulls serial data from the USB port and repackages it as a web page on my 
laptop in another room.

And when it comes to 3D printing where's the push to replace all those 
Arduino's and Pi interfaces with a PC and a full keyboard, mouse and screen?  
After all wouldn't they work so much better if they were running LinuxCNC?

So although in the case of the lights out behaviour of my 3D printer I could 
(and have) put the laptop right beside the printer and used OctoPi to do other 
setup or control stuff.  But for the most part I'm not near it.  The camera on 
the Pi2 provides the feedback I need.  And I'm not suggesting this for a 
milling machine or a lathe.  

But my point is I use the stupid little 5 button array to navigate through a 
set of annoying menus to turn on the heater bed, heater, load filament, home 
it, calibrate on the corners etc.  And then I could load the G-Code file from 
the SD card and start printing.  But I prefer the the OctoPi interface which is 
really in some ways like the AXIS Interface for LinuxCNC.

I just think that when we talk about LinuxCNC nowadays we're not really talking 
about LinuxCNC anymore.  We're talking about A PC with the LinuxCNC software 
connected to some sort of sophisticated FPGA/Processor board which has things 
like the stepping engine off loaded to it.  And this external card may or may 
not also be the BoB.

John


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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture




> On 16 Feb 2020, at 1:18 pm, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Phill Carter [mailto:phillcarte...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: February-15-20 6:04 PM
>> To: linuxcnc-users
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture
>> 
>>> I understand that if you are using a +/-10V with encoder feedback directly
>> back into LinuxCNC that this concept would not work for you.  But since you
>> say you need LinuxCNC can you tell us what you do have?
>>> 
>>> How is your LinuxCNC connected to your milling machine lead (ball?) screws
>> and spindle motor?
>>> John
>> 
>> It is for a plasma cutter configuration, stepper motors for the axes and
>> LinuxCNC doing the torch height control.
>> 
> Totally get that.  Wouldn't want a tool like I'm proposing on a 3D printer 
> either.
> John

This is just one instance where LinuxCNC with it's flexibility really shines.



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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture




> -Original Message-
> From: Phill Carter [mailto:phillcarte...@gmail.com]
> Sent: February-15-20 6:04 PM
> To: linuxcnc-users
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture
> 
> > I understand that if you are using a +/-10V with encoder feedback directly
> back into LinuxCNC that this concept would not work for you.  But since you
> say you need LinuxCNC can you tell us what you do have?
> >
> > How is your LinuxCNC connected to your milling machine lead (ball?) screws
> and spindle motor?
> > John
> 
> It is for a plasma cutter configuration, stepper motors for the axes and
> LinuxCNC doing the torch height control.
> 
Totally get that.  Wouldn't want a tool like I'm proposing on a 3D printer 
either.
John



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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

> I understand that if you are using a +/-10V with encoder feedback directly 
> back into LinuxCNC that this concept would not work for you.  But since you 
> say you need LinuxCNC can you tell us what you do have?
> 
> How is your LinuxCNC connected to your milling machine lead (ball?) screws 
> and spindle motor?
> John

It is for a plasma cutter configuration, stepper motors for the axes and 
LinuxCNC doing the torch height control.

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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture




> -Original Message-
> From: Phill Carter [mailto:phillcarte...@gmail.com]
> Sent: February-15-20 5:25 PM
> To: linuxcnc-users
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture
> 
> 
> 
> > On 16 Feb 2020, at 11:14 am, John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> 
> > But let me ask a question.   If you buy a Break Out Board with an LCD 
> > display
> large enough to show 5 Axis DRO, Spindle Speed and Feed rate.  And it has
> buttons that let you do what my Lathe ELS does for jogging and using the
> MPG to move the axis.  If it can operate stand-alone like that.  Essentially a
> manual mill where the motors and encoders (or open loop if you trust
> steppers) serve as the DRO feedback but each axis has power feed is it not
> still just a manual mill with power feed and DROs?  Along with electronic
> speed control of the spindle.  No more stepped pulleys.
> >
> > Now if this fancy Break Out Board c/w display and buttons cost around $200
> and had an Ethernet connection that accepted messages as if it were a clone
> of a $200+ MESA Break Out Board what is the difference?And if this fancy
> Break Out Board had a few extra buttons like my Shumatech DRO has for
> finding center of a hole or edge or doing bolt circles.  Or may a few other
> operations that MACH3/4 call wizards, all from that front panel, then
> depending on what you do, how often you do it, when do you need
> LinuxCNC?
> 
> Personally I would need LinuxCNC because what you have described does
> not do what I want but if that is what you want then you should build it.

I understand that if you are using a +/-10V with encoder feedback directly back 
into LinuxCNC that this concept would not work for you.  But since you say you 
need LinuxCNC can you tell us what you do have?

How is your LinuxCNC connected to your milling machine lead (ball?) screws and 
spindle motor?
John


> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

2020-02-15 Thread Gene Heskett

On Saturday 15 February 2020 15:07:11 Stuart Stevenson wrote:

> Rafael,
>
>  If you think an embedded system would be the best and used more than
> any other then - Feel free to do it and release it. Make your newer
> and better truly newer and better. That is the beauty and hindrance of
> LinuxCNC. It is open to whatever YOU want to do with it. If you want
> to take LinuxCNC and develop it for your own use and not release any
> of 'your' system you are free to do that as well. I would happily try
> out your embedded version. The hindrance is if you will not or can not
> develop the system you want you will need to wait until someone with
> the will and the way does it. That can be frustrating.
>  A third way is paying someone to develop it for you.
>
> I will have to agree with you on the metric system. But alas, you and
> I are not the only ones here.
>
> On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 12:23 PM Rafael Skodlar  
wrote:
> > On 2020-02-15 01:05, Bari wrote:
> > > On 2/15/20 1:42 AM, David Berndt wrote:
> > >> How did we get to the point where we decided that the goal is a
> > >> "relatively simple embedded system"? I for one am not looking to
> > >> trade off the current gui and it's features for what you
> > >> describe.
> > >>
> > >> It seems like a lot of this thread seems to steer itself in the
> > >> machinekit direction in terms of apparent goals/ideals, so I
> > >> guess I'd ask, why not start there?
> > >
> > > We haven't. Someone just thinks new or different is better.
> > > Someone that
> >
> > And you? You think that doing things the same old way is better?
> > Steam engine driving machines with pulley transmission in your work
> > shop?
> >
> > When I was little, we had to pull the weeds by bare hands on a small
> > farm. Our family would prefer doing it this way:
> > https://agerris.com/
> > https://farmwise.io/
> > https://www.deepfield-robotics.com/en/
> >
> > Only people who think differently in a positive way make a positive
> > difference. Have you heard about little automobile company Tesla
> > that happens to be a bike ride from my home?
> >
> > > has not really worked much with CNC machines but does have an idea
> > > that they think would make things better. It would be newer
> > > without
> >
> > In my case, true. However I see what others with lots of $$$ in the
> > industry are doing. It would be beneficial for small shops or
> > hobbyists to use similar things on a smaller scale. No need for
> > running test on the motherboard to ensure RT kernel will work as
> > expected.
> >
> > That's how PC industry started in the 1970s. People started copying
> > SW and HW ideas from mainframes. I'm not inventing anything here.
> > Just pointing to possibility to simplify LinuxCNC and expand it's
> > use.
> >
> > > explaining why it would be better, only telling us that it will be
> > > better. So they think newer is better just because it is newer. I
> > > hope I have cleared this up.  :)
> >
> > Explanation or hints were given by others and myself. For some it's
> > obvious, for others it's not. History is full of naysayers to
> > everything new.
> >
> > > Newer is better. Look into my eyes and repeat "newer is better".
> >
> > Looking into your anonymous eyes:
> > Metric system is 200 years old. Some of us know it's better since my
> > grandma told me so long ago. Yet whole North American Continent is
> > stuck on archaic system that is based on dead British king finger,
> > foot, and butt size. So "newer is better".
> >
> > "Make America Metric" I say.

Way past due imnsho. Because of my background of lassoing electrons and 
making them do usefull work for us humans, at least half of what I do on 
these machines is done in the metric mode. Twouldn't bither me a bot if 
it all changed tomorrow.

Where they really screwed the moose back then was in playing with gas 
pumps first and not posting the gallon equ.  They made everybody carry a 
pocket calc to find out what the price in gallons was.  BIG MISTAKE, 
John and Jane Doe just drove around the corner to a station that still 
sold gallons. Eventually the metric pumps wound up in the landfill 
because the stations that bought into that BS were starving. I 
personally think it was designed to fail.  How quick was the real 
question.

> > Need explanation?
> >
> > --
> > Rafael
> >
> >
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture - open source complexity

2020-02-15 Thread Gene Heskett

On Saturday 15 February 2020 15:07:00 Les Newell wrote:

[...]

We pretty muh agree to here, Les.

> > So open source is truly open source but I'll bet 95% of the members
> > on this forum haven't a clue what Gene or Thomas means when they
> > post how they are rebuilding the kernel for a Raspberry Pi.

I know that makes me an 85 year old geek, but I was a girlfriendless geek 
long before the word was invented.
>
> If you really want to know the information is a Google search away.

Sometimes Les. I am on a slow 10mbit cable modem, and on SS so I can't 
see getting a gigabit hookup. But when I first put that info and the 
files up on my web page, they were found in minutes by the herd of bots 
that service the search engines like google etc. But the offshore bots 
tend to ignore your robots.txt and want to mirror your site, and since 
theres at least 100 such offshore bots I had to block with iptables 
rules, which because they bounce around in the same D block weekly 
trying to get around iptables type guard dogs to steal ever more data, I 
use /24 masking in my rules to kill that whole class D. Google was one 
of the first to ignore robots.txt so they fell to the block quite early. 
Its taken nearly 50 rules to get enough peace so folks that do want 
something don't have to share my nominally 300kb upload bandwidth with 3 
other bots.  But that means the any data that google, bing or sembot etc 
has aged out, and no longer available to the search engines. It has that 
cost, but a 300kb upload of my whole site will take about a week per 
bot, so allowing that access is simply not compatible with the size of 
my pipe.

> If 
> you put in the time to learn this stuff you will end up knowing how to
> do it. Gene is not an experienced Linux kernel developer. He started
> off knowing little about what was needed but was willing to put in the
> time to learn.

Thanks for the flowers Les. :)

> Les

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture




> On 16 Feb 2020, at 11:14 am, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> But let me ask a question.   If you buy a Break Out Board with an LCD display 
> large enough to show 5 Axis DRO, Spindle Speed and Feed rate.  And it has 
> buttons that let you do what my Lathe ELS does for jogging and using the MPG 
> to move the axis.  If it can operate stand-alone like that.  Essentially a 
> manual mill where the motors and encoders (or open loop if you trust 
> steppers) serve as the DRO feedback but each axis has power feed is it not 
> still just a manual mill with power feed and DROs?  Along with electronic 
> speed control of the spindle.  No more stepped pulleys.
> 
> Now if this fancy Break Out Board c/w display and buttons cost around $200 
> and had an Ethernet connection that accepted messages as if it were a clone 
> of a $200+ MESA Break Out Board what is the difference?And if this fancy 
> Break Out Board had a few extra buttons like my Shumatech DRO has for finding 
> center of a hole or edge or doing bolt circles.  Or may a few other 
> operations that MACH3/4 call wizards, all from that front panel, then 
> depending on what you do, how often you do it, when do you need LinuxCNC?

Personally I would need LinuxCNC because what you have described does not do 
what I want but if that is what you want then you should build it.

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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

> > And that is the misconception voiced all the time by frequent users of
> > CNC systems. Perhaps you remember how to do all that stuff. I don't.
> > So CNC is a leap harder to learn.
> 
> If as you say you use the machine that seldom then even using the ELS is
> probably a re-learning curve. I think most hobbyists who are willing to
> invest the time and effort to convert a machine or the money to buy one
> are likely to use it more often than that.
> 
You'd have to ask users of my ELS as to how often they refer to the manual to 
use it.  Since I wrote the software it's not fair for me to say it's easy when 
for others it might not be.

I do know I switch on the lathe.  I chuck in the piece I'm turning and move to 
the point where I manually turn in the cross slide since I don't have an X 
motor set up on the South Bend yet.
So say I face off the piece.  I then set zero.  MACH and LinuxCNC have a button 
for that.
Move to the right a bit with a jog button and tap the BEGIN button.  ENTER and 
then TURN again.  Tap the END button and key in a negative distance towards the 
chuck which is the distance from the freshly cut face.  ENTER, TURN buttons.  
Dial the X handle to roughly where I want my first pass and START.  
Now the display tells me to insert the tool into the work since it knows I 
don't have an X motor.  ENTER to confirm and away it goes.  When it stops, it 
tells me to retract the tool.  I do that and press START.
At this point I'd stop the spindle and measure.  Figure out total depth of cut 
to get to my target diameter. 
Zero the X scale on the handle.  Dial in depth of cut and press START.
Rinse and repeat until depth of cut matches.  
Just like using a manual lathe except that instead of engaging the half nut and 
sitting poised to flip it off and then turning the big handle until the 
carriage bumps against a stop.
With only one axis powered the ELS was designed to augment a manual lathe.  Not 
be CNC.  Not present itself like CNC.
If I was doing it on the Gingery lathe which has a powered X then I'd do the 
same thing but select SCREW instead of TURN, set the pitch to the feed I want, 
Set the depth of thread and the depth per pass and press START.  And wait for 
it to finish.  But that's more CNC like.
Once at the right diameter I'd maybe swap in the threading tool.  Touch off to 
find the surface.  Set the parameters for Pitch, Depth etc (although it can 
calculate that automatically for you) and because it's a different tool 
probably tweak the BEGIN/END positions.  And since it's an old South Bend and 
I'm cutting metric I just press START and it does it.

And again, if I don't have an X motor it prompts me to insert and remove the 
tool.  If I do, it does it all automatically.  That's about it for what it does 
other than taper turning if you have a powered X.  So it's not CNC.  Not meant 
to be CNC.

But let me ask a question.   If you buy a Break Out Board with an LCD display 
large enough to show 5 Axis DRO, Spindle Speed and Feed rate.  And it has 
buttons that let you do what my Lathe ELS does for jogging and using the MPG to 
move the axis.  If it can operate stand-alone like that.  Essentially a manual 
mill where the motors and encoders (or open loop if you trust steppers) serve 
as the DRO feedback but each axis has power feed is it not still just a manual 
mill with power feed and DROs?  Along with electronic speed control of the 
spindle.  No more stepped pulleys.

Now if this fancy Break Out Board c/w display and buttons cost around $200 and 
had an Ethernet connection that accepted messages as if it were a clone of a 
$200+ MESA Break Out Board what is the difference?And if this fancy Break 
Out Board had a few extra buttons like my Shumatech DRO has for finding center 
of a hole or edge or doing bolt circles.  Or may a few other operations that 
MACH3/4 call wizards, all from that front panel, then depending on what you do, 
how often you do it, when do you need LinuxCNC?

And I think fundamentally that's the real questions.   A module that accepts 
say Ethernet in on one end and outputs motor control out the other is a black 
box.  A black box just like buying an AC Servo Drive that accepts step/dir 
RS422 up to 500kHZ and 0-3000 RPM.   When you need CNC you use CNC.  If you are 
repairing something that you clamp in the vise and doesn't start off as a block 
of aluminium, the manual or power assisted manual method might be more useful.

I think that's the future of the CNC home/small business model.  And when you 
look at the 32bit ARM based CNC boxes available from China, all it would take 
is that Ethernet or USB connection and the firmware to interpret the protocol 
originally destined for a MESA or some other FPFA based BoB.



> Les
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture - open source complexity




If it were true then Universities and schools wouldn't exist. After all everything taught 
in school is a "Google search away".


There are a lot of extremely knowledgeable people out there with little 
formal education. Universities and schools  are not the only way to 
learn. They make learning easier because they present the information in 
a carefully organized way. Again, how do you want to pay? You can either 
pay the educational establishment to organize that information for you 
or you can invest the time to find it yourself.


It's all about attitude. If you attack a problem with the 'I can do 
this' attitude you probably can. Will you make mistakes? Of course. Will 
you always succeed? Probably not. Will it be hard work? Yes. However if 
you start off thinking this is too hard you are pretty much guaranteed 
to fail. Unfortunately fewer and fewer people these days are willing to try.




The reality is if you already know, then you know what to discard and what to 
use.And when you don't know what you don't know, the google approach is 
incredibly difficult.


Start with the basics and work from there. Taking the Linux kernel 
example. Type 'What is the Linux kernel' into Google. The first hit is 
Wikipedia. This is the first sentence in the Wikipedia description: "The 
*Linux kernel* is a free and open-source 
, monolithic 
, Unix-like 
 operating system 
 kernel 
." Ok, but I 
don't know what a kernel is. Click on the kernel link and you get a 
description that starts with a good overview then goes into more detail 
if you need it (which you don't).


Of course none of this tells you anything about how to build the kernel, 
but at least you have more of an understanding of what it does and why 
you would need to modify it. Instructions for building the kernel are 
out there. It can be a pretty deep rabbit hole but this is advanced 
stuff that few people need to do. An evening on Google isn't going to be 
nearly enough. It's a learning process and learning takes time. Even 
learning how to use online searches efficiently takes time. Are you 
willing to invest the time?



And none of that addresses that a LinuxCNC system is an incredibly complex 
system


So is a 747. You don't have to know what hydraulic system 2 in a 747 
does to fly in one, though if you are interested a quick search will get 
you a diagram that shows you.


Motion control is complicated. Making a very versatile extensible motion 
control system is even more so. If you want LinuxCNC's versatility you 
have to accept it is going to be complex. Unless you are doing pretty 
sophisticated stuff you don't need to know how it works internally. If 
you do need to work on it you just concentrate on the area you need to 
work on.


Les

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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture





But having used both but with sometimes 6 to 8 months or even a year between 
uses, I can tell you that a slightly automated manual lathe with an ELS is a 
leap forward in ease of use compared to booting up a PC, running the CNC 
application and then trying to remember what G-Code/M-Code did what.


I don't find boot up time to be an issue. I walk in the workshop and 
turn the machine on. By the time I've picked out the stock I'm going to 
use and decided on what cutter to use the machine's up and running.


As far as remembering the codes, a cheat sheet taped to the machine does 
wonders. For basic stuff you only need to remember half a dozen G-codes 
and a few M codes. The sheet can be pretty short. For instance I don't 
thread that often in the lathe so I have a cheat sheet for thread cutting.


If you want to mix manual/CNC operation you need to know g-code but if 
you are willing to go purely CAD/CAM you don't need to know g-code at 
all. A fairly big chunk of my customers only vaguely understand what 
g-code is. They just load their drawing into SheetCam, set up the paths, 
load the resultant code into their machine and run it. I very seldom 
bother manually writing code for the router or plasma.



And that is the misconception voiced all the time by frequent users of 
CNC systems. Perhaps you remember how to do all that stuff. I don't. 
So CNC is a leap harder to learn.


If as you say you use the machine that seldom then even using the ELS is 
probably a re-learning curve. I think most hobbyists who are willing to 
invest the time and effort to convert a machine or the money to buy one 
are likely to use it more often than that.


Les



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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture - open source complexity

> If you really want to know the information is a Google search away. If
> you put in the time to learn this stuff you will end up knowing how to
> do it. Gene is not an experienced Linux kernel developer. He started off
> knowing little about what was needed but was willing to put in the time
> to learn.

If it were true then Universities and schools wouldn't exist. After all 
everything taught in school is a "Google search away".  The reality is if you 
already know, then you know what to discard and what to use.And when you 
don't know what you don't know, the google approach is incredibly difficult.

And none of that addresses that a LinuxCNC system is an incredibly complex 
system
John

> 
> Les
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

> > When I designed the E-Leadscrew Electronic Lead Screw controller the
> feedback from the non-CNC people was that they wanted something more
> than just electronic gearing (now commonly also called an ELS) but not
> something as extensive as full CNC.
> I am afraid I never really understood that mindset. ELS has some
> advantages over manual but where going from full manual to ELS is a step
> forward, going from ELS to CNC is a leap forward in capability, for not
> much difference in cost. You already have the drivers, motors,
> mechanical parts etc. 

I totally agree about the leap forward.  Which is why my ELS had a parallel 
port cable that connected to the BoB and all those drivers,motors.  I often 
moved it back and forth between MACH2 and then MACH3.

But having used both but with sometimes 6 to 8 months or even a year between 
uses, I can tell you that a slightly automated manual lathe with an ELS is a 
leap forward in ease of use compared to booting up a PC, running the CNC 
application and then trying to remember what G-Code/M-Code did what.

Now if you use your system every day then an ELS is not for you and that type 
of usage was never the target market.
>Is CNC harder to learn than ELS? Yes, but not that much.

And that is the misconception voiced all the time by frequent users of CNC 
systems.  Perhaps you remember how to do all that stuff.   I don't.  So CNC is 
a leap harder to learn.
John Dammeyer

> Les
> 
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture - open source complexity


What exactly is open source?  In a way it's LinuxCNC but only a few guru's 
really understand what is happening under the covers because it's so incredibly 
powerful.The MESA cards can be modified since much of the FPGA information 
is published.  But unlike MACH3 where a simple checkbox changes the spindle 
step pin into a pwm pin the FPGA world requires knowledge of the entire FPGA 
programming environment and it can't just be changed with a check box on a set 
up dialog box.


This is an unrelated discussion but there ain't no such thing as a free 
lunch. Open source is not without cost. This is a common misconception. 
The open source community is very vocal about the software being free 
but that is misleading. The software itself may be free but you need to 
invest a significant amount of effort into actually using it. Closed 
source developers have a strong incentive to make their software as easy 
to use as possible. If their software is hard to use nobody will buy it 
and they don't get to eat at the end of the day. Open source relies on 
the willingness of developers to donate their time. Pretty front ends 
and ease of use take a back seat compared to functionality. Both models 
have their place. It's your decision at the end of the day. Do you want 
to invest money or time?



And in the LinuxCNC world one has to be very careful when asking a question in 
fear of being chastised for not doing their own research and memorizing all the 
command line options of a 1970's based serial non-graphical terminal interface.


That's not my experience. Generally any questions I have asked on this 
forum have been answered pretty quickly with minimal snark. If you ask 
something that has been asked a thousand times before you could get a 
short reply but you have to remember everyone is donating their time. It 
gets tedious answering the same questions repeatedly when a quick Google 
search could have found the answer. Again going back to paid software, 
you are paying someone to be patient with you.  It is up to you to make 
the decision how you pay. You can pay by doing the research and helping 
others or you can pay someone directly to help you.



So open source is truly open source but I'll bet 95% of the members on this 
forum haven't a clue what Gene or Thomas means when they post how they are 
rebuilding the kernel for a Raspberry Pi.
If you really want to know the information is a Google search away. If 
you put in the time to learn this stuff you will end up knowing how to 
do it. Gene is not an experienced Linux kernel developer. He started off 
knowing little about what was needed but was willing to put in the time 
to learn.


Les



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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

2020-02-15 Thread Stuart Stevenson

Rafael,

 If you think an embedded system would be the best and used more than any
other then - Feel free to do it and release it. Make your newer and better
truly newer and better. That is the beauty and hindrance of LinuxCNC. It is
open to whatever YOU want to do with it. If you want to take LinuxCNC and
develop it for your own use and not release any of 'your' system you are
free to do that as well. I would happily try out your embedded version.
 The hindrance is if you will not or can not develop the system you want
you will need to wait until someone with the will and the way does it. That
can be frustrating.
 A third way is paying someone to develop it for you.

I will have to agree with you on the metric system. But alas, you and I are
not the only ones here.

On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 12:23 PM Rafael Skodlar  wrote:

> On 2020-02-15 01:05, Bari wrote:
> > On 2/15/20 1:42 AM, David Berndt wrote:
> >
> >> How did we get to the point where we decided that the goal is a
> >> "relatively simple embedded system"? I for one am not looking to trade
> >> off the current gui and it's features for what you describe.
> >>
> >> It seems like a lot of this thread seems to steer itself in the
> >> machinekit direction in terms of apparent goals/ideals, so I guess I'd
> >> ask, why not start there?
> >
> >
> > We haven't. Someone just thinks new or different is better. Someone that
>
> And you? You think that doing things the same old way is better? Steam
> engine driving machines with pulley transmission in your work shop?
>
> When I was little, we had to pull the weeds by bare hands on a small
> farm. Our family would prefer doing it this way:
> https://agerris.com/
> https://farmwise.io/
> https://www.deepfield-robotics.com/en/
>
> Only people who think differently in a positive way make a positive
> difference. Have you heard about little automobile company Tesla that
> happens to be a bike ride from my home?
>
> > has not really worked much with CNC machines but does have an idea that
> > they think would make things better. It would be newer without
>
> In my case, true. However I see what others with lots of $$$ in the
> industry are doing. It would be beneficial for small shops or hobbyists
> to use similar things on a smaller scale. No need for running test on
> the motherboard to ensure RT kernel will work as expected.
>
> That's how PC industry started in the 1970s. People started copying SW
> and HW ideas from mainframes. I'm not inventing anything here. Just
> pointing to possibility to simplify LinuxCNC and expand it's use.
>
> > explaining why it would be better, only telling us that it will be
> > better. So they think newer is better just because it is newer. I hope I
> > have cleared this up.  :)
> >
>
> Explanation or hints were given by others and myself. For some it's
> obvious, for others it's not. History is full of naysayers to everything
> new.
>
> > Newer is better. Look into my eyes and repeat "newer is better".
>
> Looking into your anonymous eyes:
> Metric system is 200 years old. Some of us know it's better since my
> grandma told me so long ago. Yet whole North American Continent is stuck
> on archaic system that is based on dead British king finger, foot, and
> butt size. So "newer is better".
>
> "Make America Metric" I say.
>
> Need explanation?
>
> --
> Rafael
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture




Yes, you do need a special PC.   This means a PC you use for Linux CNC and
not the one already on your desk.


Why would I want to run them from my main desktop machine? My CNC 
machines are out in the workshop where they belong. They are big, dirty, 
smelly and noisy. I don't want them in them same room with me when I'm 
doing other stuff. If I really want to monitor what they are doing VNC 
does a good job. I personally don't bother because I very seldom run 
multi-hour programs.


Linux is comes with the normal productivity tools so there is no reason 
why you can't run them on your LinuxCNC computer. For example my mill 
and plasma both have CAD, CAM, browser etc. Basically all of the 
functionality I need to go from thoughts in my head to finished parts. 
If I wanted to I could build a desktop PC with full office functionality 
and use it to run a desktop CNC router as well. Of course to fit on a 
desktop that router would be too small and light for nearly all of the 
work I do so it would just sit gathering dust. Speaking of dust, a 
machine that spews wood dust into the work space is a very bad idea. 
I've been exposed to wood dust in the work place for many years and am 
now paying the price. Yes, I could add extraction to the router but that 
adds to the noise and sucks the heat outside. My nice quiet warm office 
now becomes a noisy freezer.



  Again think of the normal ink-jet
printer.   Do you connect it to a special "printer PC" that is only used to
drive inkjet printers?  No.  In most cases, the inkjet (or laser)
printer is just on WiFi and can print from any iPhone of PC that is also on
the same WiFi.


What market are you aiming at? Machine shops want a machine that they 
can start up in the morning and just keeps spitting out parts until it 
runs out of stock. They /really /don't want just anyone being able to 
send files to it and mess with it. Nearly all machining centers have 
network connectivity so loading in a new job is just a case of pulling 
the files from a shared drive. The operator looks at his job sheet, sets 
the machine up with the appropriate fixtures, cutters etc then loads the 
code from a local or shared drive and presses go. There's no point being 
able to push the programs to the machine if you still have to be there 
in person to set it up.


A hobbyist just starting out may want something they can 'just print' to 
but realistically that is only practical for something like a laser or 
maybe very basic work on a small format desktop router. For anything 
else you are never going to get to something like a printer where you 
conceive a design and the machine cuts it out with next to no user 
input. There are just too many variables. To print a page pretty much 
the only options you have are orientation, page size and maybe selecting 
color or black and white. With machining there are millions of possible 
variations of what you can do. Are you starting from a blank, raw stock 
or maybe a pre-machined part? What cutters are you using? What outlines 
do you actually want to machine? What fixturing do you need? CAM has 
improved a lot over the years and will get better but if you really want 
a 'feed raw stock in one end and any part you want comes out the other' 
the only way you'll get it is with 3D printing. 3D printing has a very 
long way to go before it becomes practical for general production parts.



This is a common thing.  Users typically get used to what they have and ask
for only tiny, incremental changes.


Over time, tiny incremental changes have a big effect. Lets' face it the 
only difference between humans and fish is a series of incremental 
changes over time. CNC machines have been around for quite some time and 
have ended up looking as they do now for very good reasons.



That said, disruptive change is really hard to do as it takes a change of
mind-set.  You have to kick the problem around for a long time before you
see a completely different solution.


You also need to have a deep understanding of the problem. Look at the 
thousands of startups out there that have 'revolutionary' ideas that 
fail spectacularly because they didn't really understand the problem. 
How much experience do you have with operating CNC machines?


In any case, that CNC machine does not have or need a PC computer with 
modern GUI interface connected directly to run it. That's why I 
started this discussion. X-windows is waste of resources, it's another 
thing that needs to be maintained and updated in some instances. Too 
many things to go bad in what's supposed to be a relatively simple 
embedded system.


Look at any modern machining center. They have a honking big display 
that lets you know at a glance if everything is working correctly and 
lets you set the machine up quickly and efficiently. I've used machines 
with 2 line LCD displays and the menus are painful to use. The only time 
they work is if you are doing really simple stuff that needs little 
s

Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture --> steam engine no, pyrolis yes, OT!

2020-02-15 Thread N

> And you? You think that doing things the same old way is better? Steam 
> engine driving machines with pulley transmission in your work shop?

As I understand it steam engine does not have the best efficiency, pyrolysis 
and compression ignition is probably better, maybe some steam in a compbined 
cycle. Swirl chamber to keep formation of Nox pollution to a low level.

> When I was little, we had to pull the weeds by bare hands on a small 
> farm. Our family would prefer doing it this way:
> https://agerris.com/
> https://farmwise.io/
> https://www.deepfield-robotics.com/en/

Think this and car driving itself home from pub might be really good uses of 
artificial intelligence.

> Rafael


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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture --> printer driver postscript <-> g-code

2020-02-15 Thread N

Printers talk postscript while CNC machines talk g-code, well not always but 
quite often.


> As an example look at the two articles in December and February Circuit 
> Cellar Magazine by Raul Alverez-Torrico on building a 4-DOF robotic arm.
> https://circuitcellar.com/
>  
> He uses Matlab to do the kinematics (described in the Feb issue) but uses his 
> own serial protocol for moving each motor through an angle.  (Figure 1)
> 
> He uses Matlab to do the kinematics (described in the Feb issue) but uses his 
> own serial protocol for moving each motor through an angle.  Figure 5.
> It could just as easily have been G-Code.Or he could have used a program 
> to interpret his special commands and translate them into G-Code and then run 
> an arm via LinuxCNC.  

Used Simulink/Matlab and what's good with Simulink is it show signal flow but 
it's a delusional target. Get feeling it is all easy but to understand how the 
to set the gain in feedback or other calculations there is no other choice than 
read the theories behind. Basic operations are more or less algebra unless you 
have blocks someone else already wrote and I find most often equations are 
easier to read in textual form especially if they have nice typesetting, would 
be interesting with a programming language allowing variable named formatted 
with LaTeX typesetting.

Simscape or Modelica might provide more help as you could draw ordinary 
schematics instead of manually entering equations as is done in Simulink. To 
calculate feedback gains transformation of these schematic to state space form 
which may be linearised to linear state space form if needed is very useful. 
There are plenty of literature available for linear state space form which is a 
more or less standard form to model dynamic systems so it is very useful.

> The point is that he's using a small UNO for the embedded controller and a PC 
> for the trajectory planning.
> John Dammeyer

Real time in UNO and others in PC?


Regards Nicklas Karlsson


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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

2020-02-15 Thread Rafael Skodlar


On 2020-02-15 01:05, Bari wrote:

On 2/15/20 1:42 AM, David Berndt wrote:

How did we get to the point where we decided that the goal is a 
"relatively simple embedded system"? I for one am not looking to trade 
off the current gui and it's features for what you describe.


It seems like a lot of this thread seems to steer itself in the 
machinekit direction in terms of apparent goals/ideals, so I guess I'd 
ask, why not start there?



We haven't. Someone just thinks new or different is better. Someone that 


And you? You think that doing things the same old way is better? Steam 
engine driving machines with pulley transmission in your work shop?


When I was little, we had to pull the weeds by bare hands on a small 
farm. Our family would prefer doing it this way:

https://agerris.com/
https://farmwise.io/
https://www.deepfield-robotics.com/en/

Only people who think differently in a positive way make a positive 
difference. Have you heard about little automobile company Tesla that 
happens to be a bike ride from my home?


has not really worked much with CNC machines but does have an idea that 
they think would make things better. It would be newer without 


In my case, true. However I see what others with lots of $$$ in the 
industry are doing. It would be beneficial for small shops or hobbyists 
to use similar things on a smaller scale. No need for running test on 
the motherboard to ensure RT kernel will work as expected.


That's how PC industry started in the 1970s. People started copying SW 
and HW ideas from mainframes. I'm not inventing anything here. Just 
pointing to possibility to simplify LinuxCNC and expand it's use.


explaining why it would be better, only telling us that it will be 
better. So they think newer is better just because it is newer. I hope I 
have cleared this up.  :)




Explanation or hints were given by others and myself. For some it's 
obvious, for others it's not. History is full of naysayers to everything 
new.



Newer is better. Look into my eyes and repeat "newer is better".


Looking into your anonymous eyes:
Metric system is 200 years old. Some of us know it's better since my 
grandma told me so long ago. Yet whole North American Continent is stuck 
on archaic system that is based on dead British king finger, foot, and 
butt size. So "newer is better".


"Make America Metric" I say.

Need explanation?

--
Rafael


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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

As an example look at the two articles in December and February Circuit Cellar 
Magazine by Raul Alverez-Torrico on building a 4-DOF robotic arm.
https://circuitcellar.com/
 
He uses Matlab to do the kinematics (described in the Feb issue) but uses his 
own serial protocol for moving each motor through an angle.  (Figure 1)

He uses Matlab to do the kinematics (described in the Feb issue) but uses his 
own serial protocol for moving each motor through an angle.  Figure 5.
It could just as easily have been G-Code.Or he could have used a program to 
interpret his special commands and translate them into G-Code and then run an 
arm via LinuxCNC.  

The point is that he's using a small UNO for the embedded controller and a PC 
for the trajectory planning.
John Dammeyer
 
> 
> For Machine control we have:
> CAD -> CAM -> G-Code -> Trajectory Planning and implementation ->
> Ethernet OR Parallel Port OR PCI bus -> Step/Dir OR Smart Serial OR CAN bus
> or Ethernet. -> Hardware motion.
> 
> Ask then which parts require a large PC with graphical interface?  Which
> require pseudo real time?  Which require hard real time?
> 
> At the moment a PC compatible with a parallel port can do it all.  Up to the
> latency measurement and then it can't reliably create the high speed
> stepping pulses.  The OS is not important.  LinuxCNC or MACH3 on WIN-XP/7.
> On both systems the CAD->CAM can also be hosted although it appears most
> LinuxCNC people still tend to use Windows for the CAD side.
> 
> Now exceed the capabilities of the PC compatible and you are into the
> netherworld of FPGA/RealTimeProcessors to do the next step.  And those
> aren't all public domain and certainly, like a PC wth a parallel port, totally
> interchangeable.
> 
> My two cents.
> John Dammeyer
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

2020-02-15 Thread Stuart Stevenson

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 2:56 PM Chris Albertson 
wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:43 AM Gene Heskett 
> wrote:
>
> No.  You should not need to know anything.  The fact that you do need to is
> a sign that the technology is immature.Back when cars were a new and
> immature technology drivers had to know what a "spark advance" was and also
> understand the effect of the mixture controls and how to use a clutch and
> shift gears.  In 20 years a small child will be able to operate a car
> by sitting in the back seat and saying "Take me the gramma's house"
>
> All tech works that way.   At first, it is usable by experts then it gets
> easy.   Hobby level CNC has a LONG way to go before it gets easy.
>
> As I pointed out before a good example to follow is "cleanflight". It
> lets anyone with minimal tech background configure the software inside a
> multi-copter drone and download it onto the chip.They do not need to
> even know the system uses an RTOS.  http://cleanflight.com   It is all
> open
> source and is easy to use
>
> There is no good technical reason a CNC machine can't connect to a normal
> desktop computer or phone over WiFi and "just work".
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
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It seems to me the conversation should be about creating a "printer driver"
for the machine tool instead of burdening the development of LinuxCNC with
the attempt to integrate functions beyond controlling the machine tool.
Almost any CAM system I have used will do that already if you have a
restricted set of parameters to generate the symbolic code to send to the
machine ie.

printer
machine tool

defined paper source and size   defined raw stock
source and size
defined product (2d printed page)  defined product
(something fitting the available tools and raw stock)
etc.

I have had sets of product with defined parameters and a program in my CAM
system to take the input (a very restricted geometry set) and output the
code to run the machine. This was done 30 years ago and was very
successful. My customer would send me geometry for his product. I would
then input the geometry into my system in much the same manner as creating
a flyer to print. This would take at most 5 minutes from receipt to final
machine code. I would then send it to the machine tool. Load the raw stock
(analogous to loading the paper size into the printer). Load the cutter
(analogous to loading the ink pens/cartridges). The only thing I didn't do
was have a grid on the machine tool table to allow me to press cycle start
without setting an origin point for the program. This whole process could
have been automated to be exactly like sending a print job to the printer.
That level of automation was deemed by me to be not worth the time it would
take. When each and every step of your process is repeatable it is easy
(but not always financially realistic) to automate in a complete fashion.

3D printing is much the same fashion as 2D printing. The code generation
driver can be (but not always is) embedded into the 3D printer controller.

I remember being told NC programmers would soon be a thing of the past as
IGES and programming system would soon be integrated to allow manufacturing
almost without human interference. This was in the late 70's/early 80's.
Heh not quite there yet but almost. :)

StepNC started with one of their goals to automate symbolic code generation
for controlling machine tools without human interference. If I remember
correct this was in the early/middle 90's. We are almost there but StepNC
seems to have a slightly different goal.

The original laptop computer (the abacus) was able to compute much faster
than the human mind. I wonder if people thought then it would only be a
matter of time until man had to not think anymore.

The manufacturing process remains a moving target for the the CAM systems.

The removal of human interference is the goal of many projects not only in
manufacturing. Supposedly a worthy goal but this goal comes with the
necessary reduction in complexity of the project. The reduction of
complexity is a worthy goal but it remains a very fast moving target.

I also remember the propaganda statement "NC/CNC will allow the use of
monkeys off the street successfully running the machine tools making
parts." This hasn't worked out very well either.

The insistence machine tools should be as easy to operate as a printer has
been a success for a few decades now, when all the necessary parameters are
defined and repeatable.

Symbolic code generation (of which g code is a subset) would be a worthy
focus. I don't know what is sent to a printer to cause the printer to
output a printed page. It seems driver development is what allows printers
to evolve in function and capability. Printers have

Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

2020-02-15 Thread Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users

Also known as a TUI or Text User Interface. Often used on "graphical" menu 
shells for DOS.

On Saturday, February 15, 2020, 1:43:23 AM MST, andy pugh 
 wrote:  

 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 at 06:59, Rafael Skodlar  wrote:

The tiniest user interface would be possible using extended ASCII
> characters as in old DOS. We used to play with that in old email
> signatures. My fun with ASCII art in the 1990s:

You might want to play around with:
https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/blob/master/src/emc/usr_intf/emclcd.cc

Except that the same developments that have made £2 µProcesssors available
has also made high-res colour screens cost about the same as a 4-line
character LCD.  
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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

2020-02-15 Thread N

On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 22:04:51 +
Todd Zuercher  wrote:

> Retrofitting  a CNC machine is comparable to retrofitting the drive train of 
> an automobile (or even just it's control systems).  Doing so in a modern car 
> requires quite a lot more technical knowledge than doing so with a vehicle 
> from 50 years ago. ...

Just thru out all junk and connect pedal to motor velocity control.


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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

2020-02-15 Thread Gene Heskett

On Saturday 15 February 2020 01:56:44 Rafael Skodlar wrote:

> On 2020-02-11 01:04, Chris Albertson wrote:
> >I said people *want* to use CNC like a laser printer. Most
> > setups are not that good.  It is a goal and if designing a new
> > system.  It is good to set the bar high and try to do what can't be
> > done today.What I really meant was that with a printer, all the
> > critical timing happens in the printer.  There are no servo-loops on
> > the PC and you don't need a real-time OS to print to paper. I
> > think people want CNC to work this way.
>
> That's how some CNC machines work. I came across a small woodwork
> business owner with very nicely garage that was converted into
> workshop. Win PC in the corner for designing parts in CAD, large Axiom
> CNC machine with a pendant to control it. Tiny LCD is all that's
> needed to select the job, i.e. file from a USB stick.
>
> The owner did not know what's inside the CNC machine itself and he
> doesn't care. That's what you say Chris I think and I agree with.
>
> I don't know if there's an option for connecting that CNC machine to
> LAN. I would not use wireless connections for such as it's security
> issue due to hacking possibility in the neighborhood. Another
> possibility is noise on WhyFy frequencies from appliances, bad power
> lines, etc.
>
> In any case, that CNC machine does not have or need a PC computer with
> modern GUI interface connected directly to run it. That's why I
> started this discussion. X-windows is waste of resources, it's another
> thing that needs to be maintained and updated in some instances. Too
> many things to go bad in what's supposed to be a relatively simple
> embedded system.
>
> The tiniest user interface would be possible using extended ASCII
> characters as in old DOS. We used to play with that in old email
> signatures. My fun with ASCII art in the 1990s:
>
>  . ..   .  . . . . o o o o O o
>___   ___   _  O
>
>   |  Rafael Skodlar| |   LINUX   |   ]OO|_n_n__][.
>   | ra...@mydomain.com |=|  Support  |=||=[]_|__|)<
>
>oo~~oo~   ~~oo~~~oo~~  oooo  'oo -| oo\_
> +--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
>
> Add colors, lines, and block characters and ... you see the picture
> that's taking extremely little memory by today standards.
> Simple ASCII DRO + G-code scroll window and 4x4 keypad would be enough
> for most work. No need for keyboard, mouse and X-windows on large
> monitor.
>
> > On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 3:06 PM Bari  wrote:
> >>> A laser printer is a good example of how people really want a CNC
> >>> mill to work.  You design you document on the computer then press
> >>> "print" and the printer creates it.   After the last of the data
> >>> is moved to the printer you can turn the PC off it you like.
> >>
> >> Why it's not that simple:
> >>
> >>
> >> https://www.machinedesign.com/3d-printing-cad/article/21122653/top-
> >>11-myths-of-cnc-machining
>
> the article states:
> Myth #4: G/M Code is a Thing of the Past
>
> That's true too. It amazes me that the industry did not go away from
> primitive code by today standards. G-code was only modified or updated
> by some CNC machines manufacturers as far as I know but most of G-code
> is still the same. Compare that to computer/software advancements
> since 1980s. Perl, php, python, Go, html, etc.
>
> Using G-code is like writing computer programs in assembly language!

Maybe so, but that is precisely here the power of LCNC shines because it 
a piece of cake to write an incremental loop for a specific operation.  
I don't have a fawncy cam to write my gcode so I have written most of 
the gcode I use, and buried in the midden heap of my nc_files directory 
is a 90 line piece of gcode that made me the sharpest, longest lasting 
ATBF carbide tipped blade my table saw was ever blessed with. That 90 
line file takes over 3 days to run and puts about 85 hours on the cable 
from a Dremel to its handpiece fixed to bottom of the head on one of my 
mills. And I need to do it again, while that blade was getting dulled 
cutting 1/8" alu panel & box pieces, they quit selling that tooth style 
so I need to resharpen it again.

Am I unusual, writeing my own gcode?  I don't think so, lots of it is 
done by folks that know how to exploit LCNC's power.  But it sure is 
frowned on by folks that use autocad to generate the unrolled file to 
cut a simple bearing race pocket while I've already cut it and fitted 
the bearing with 30 lines of hand written code. I haven't a lot of 
respect for the cad/cam programs that generate 10 megs worth of unrolled 
code to do an easy job that can be done with a while loop or 5 in 100 
total lines of code.

> It time to upgrade it to something like HP-GL with addition for Z and
> other axis obviously. Such a language would make it much easier for
> human(e) use. 4 to 6 let

Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture




> On 15 Feb 2020, at 8:17 pm, Robert Murphy  wrote:
> 
> 
> On 15/2/20 8:05 pm, Bari wrote:
>> On 2/15/20 1:42 AM, David Berndt wrote:
>> 
>>> How did we get to the point where we decided that the goal is a
>>> "relatively simple embedded system"? I for one am not looking to
>>> trade off the current gui and it's features for what you describe.
>>> 
>>> It seems like a lot of this thread seems to steer itself in the
>>> machinekit direction in terms of apparent goals/ideals, so I guess
>>> I'd ask, why not start there?
>> 
>> 
>> We haven't. Someone just thinks new or different is better. Someone
>> that has not really worked much with CNC machines but does have an
>> idea that they think would make things better. It would be newer
>> without explaining why it would be better, only telling us that it
>> will be better. So they think newer is better just because it is
>> newer. I hope I have cleared this up.  :)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Newer is better. Look into my eyes and repeat "newer is better".
>> 
> Nailed it hahahaha
> 
> Come to the Newer is Better side, we have gluten free, sugar free, vegan
> soy based cookies.

Delivered by a drone which is controlled by the new embedded LinuxCNC


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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

2020-02-15 Thread Robert Murphy



On 15/2/20 8:05 pm, Bari wrote:

On 2/15/20 1:42 AM, David Berndt wrote:


How did we get to the point where we decided that the goal is a
"relatively simple embedded system"? I for one am not looking to
trade off the current gui and it's features for what you describe.

It seems like a lot of this thread seems to steer itself in the
machinekit direction in terms of apparent goals/ideals, so I guess
I'd ask, why not start there?



We haven't. Someone just thinks new or different is better. Someone
that has not really worked much with CNC machines but does have an
idea that they think would make things better. It would be newer
without explaining why it would be better, only telling us that it
will be better. So they think newer is better just because it is
newer. I hope I have cleared this up.  :)



Newer is better. Look into my eyes and repeat "newer is better".


Nailed it hahahaha

Come to the Newer is Better side, we have gluten free, sugar free, vegan
soy based cookies.



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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

2020-02-15 Thread Robert Murphy

I've seen mention of the Axis interface being "old fashioned", geesh
what would happen with an extended ASCII interface ?

Maybe cnc routers could be a "plug n play" usually the setups are
relatively easy, materials are more or less flat sheets.

When one starts to delve into milling, well that's a different kettle of
fish. How much time is spent thinking about a setup, then implementing
the setup. In some jobs the actual machining time can seem trivial
compared to the setup. This is where the real skill comes into play,
something I'm still learning and very much in the novice corner in that
respect.

Now what will be the reaction of a user who wants a "plug n play"
solution when they find out about the time spent in setups ?

As much as the Arduino is a great product, it has taken the focus away
from discrete components and to focus on "everything can be done in
software". There are quite a few projects that seem to use an arduino
when it's not really required.

Linuxcnc is somewhat easy to customise by the use of hal comps, would an
embedded system aid in that ?

But I guess the "hipster maker fanbase" wouldn't care, as long as they
can post their latest gizmo on social media.

In relation to Open Source, it's the people who use the software
produced by the project that are creating it. Not some programmer
grinding out code for a day job, that needs an a middle man to be
between the end user & programmer. If that relationship isn't great well
then..

It's seems that this thread is turning more towards an embedded solution
rather than the PC solution Linuxcnc is.

As someone mentioned some of the ideas expressed seem to be more in the
realm of the Machinekit project.

On 15/2/20 5:56 pm, Rafael Skodlar wrote:

On 2020-02-11 01:04, Chris Albertson wrote:

I said people *want* to use CNC like a laser printer. Most
setups are
not that good. It is a goal and if designing a new system. It is
good to
set the bar high and try to do what can't be done today. What I
really
meant was that with a printer, all the critical timing happens in the
printer. There are no servo-loops on the PC and you don't need a
real-time
OS to print to paper. I think people want CNC to work this way.

That's how some CNC machines work. I came across a small woodwork
business owner with very nicely garage that was converted into
workshop. Win PC in the corner for designing parts in CAD, large Axiom
CNC machine with a pendant to control it. Tiny LCD is all that's
needed to select the job, i.e. file from a USB stick.

The owner did not know what's inside the CNC machine itself and he
doesn't care. That's what you say Chris I think and I agree with.

I don't know if there's an option for connecting that CNC machine to
LAN. I would not use wireless connections for such as it's security
issue due to hacking possibility in the neighborhood. Another
possibility is noise on WhyFy frequencies from appliances, bad power
lines, etc.

In any case, that CNC machine does not have or need a PC computer with
modern GUI interface connected directly to run it. That's why I
started this discussion. X-windows is waste of resources, it's another
thing that needs to be maintained and updated in some instances. Too
many things to go bad in what's supposed to be a relatively simple
embedded system.

The tiniest user interface would be possible using extended ASCII
characters as in old DOS. We used to play with that in old email
signatures. My fun with ASCII art in the 1990s:

. . . . . . . . o o o o O o
___ ___ _ O
| Rafael Skodlar | | LINUX | ]OO|_n_n__][.
| ra...@mydomain.com |=| Support |=||=[]_|__|)<
oo~~oo~ ~~oo~~~oo~~ oo oo 'oo -| oo\_
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+

Add colors, lines, and block characters and ... you see the picture
that's taking extremely little memory by today standards.
Simple ASCII DRO + G-code scroll window and 4x4 keypad would be enough
for most work. No need for keyboard, mouse and X-windows on large
monitor.

On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 3:06 PM Bari wrote:

A laser printer is a good example of how people really want a CNC
mill to
work. You design you document on the computer then press "print"
and the
printer creates it. After the last of the data is moved to the
printer
you can turn the PC off it you like.

Why it's not that simple:

https://www.machinedesign.com/3d-printing-cad/article/21122653/top-11-myths-of-cnc-machining

the article states:
Myth #4: G/M Code is a Thing of the Past

That's true too. It amazes me that the industry did not go away from
primitive code by today standards. G-code was only modified or updated
by some CNC machines manufacturers as far as I know but most of G-code
is still the same. Compare that to computer/software advancements
since 1980s. Perl, php, python, Go, html, etc.

Using

Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture